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TravisJ
Sep 10th 2008, 02:47 PM
Having salvation, does not mean that you are saved... We have to live life without sin, we endureth to the ending... This is a race, we finish when we die, not when we get born again in water, and in the spirit.

Again i have a lot of scripture from the Holy Bible to back this up. KJV is what i read from.

Hebrews 12:14-15
14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God. ( You can't fail unmerited favor, because its unmerited, but you can fail if you dont allow God's devine influence to reflect in your life!)

Galations 5:4
4. Christ is become of no effect in you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So you can fall from grace, and you once saved but no longer.

2 Peter 3:17
17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been bettter for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to here wallowing in the mire.

Hebrew 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but i will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
same as Matthew 10:22

Hebrew 3:12-17
12 Take heed, brethen, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart, as in the provocation. 16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17. But with whom he greived forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Romans 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuence in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. (I said this twice because it is important, all is important but i just want yall to know that last part.)

Overcomers: Jesus spoke to the Churches, to the born again believers and told them that they'd make it only if they overcome!

Revelation 2:5-7 (Ephesus)
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:10 (Smyrna)
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and i will give thee a crown of life.

Revelatoin 2:17 (Pergamus)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that recieveth it.

Revelation 2:26 (Thyatira)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

Revelation 3:21-22 (Laodicea)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Luke 15:21-24 (parable)
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in they sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fattest calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jude 3-7 (All Jude had for examples was the old testament)
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was neeful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (expressing lust or lewdness or excuse to sin), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved his people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The only thing God will NOT forgive is Blaspheme the Holy Ghost: (another proof that once in grace always in grace is falste teaching)

Hebrew 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



That took alot of of typing... but i just hope you guys will understand and take this and hide this word in your heart.... and grow stronger every day by doing so.. Hide the Word in your heart, so thou shalt not sin against God. God will forgive every sin but blaspheme, if you have sin in your life, turn it over to God, :pray: fall on your knees into repentance, Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

God Bless all of you, and I hope people grow encouraged through with the Word.. For I come to encourage people to the Truth, not to discourage if i sound so I do not. It is kind of hard to tell a distinct attitude on the computer, but if you meet me in person, you would know i am not so.. :)

HisLeast
Sep 10th 2008, 03:06 PM
This conflict has always confused me. It seems the more I hear it, the more it sounds like both sides are saying the exact same thing. So where as the NOSASer (which is cliche, but for lack of a better term) will say that the "sinner's prayer reciter" often "doesn't finish the race", the OSASer most often is not including such people in their definition of saved (and thus always so).

In my experience, they almost always describe the same sample of people the exact same way.

TravisJ
Sep 10th 2008, 03:16 PM
I try not to confuse, I'm just reading from the Bible, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3:16

The Bible says you can fall from grace, only you can allow that to happen, no man can separate yourself and God but by yourself.. if that made since..

HisLeast
Sep 10th 2008, 03:22 PM
I try not to confuse, I'm just reading from the Bible, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3:16
I know


The Bible says you can fall from grace, only you can allow that to happen, no man can separate yourself and God but by yourself.. if that made since..
Bible also says those who are saved are saved indeed. Do you think that the OSAS camp comes to the camp completely void of scripture to quote as well?

And this is what I see as the grand paradox. A great case can be made for either side using scripture. Both sides will describe the salvation state of the same set of people the same way. They are two ways of describing the same situation, despite appearing to be at odds with one another.

TravisJ
Sep 10th 2008, 03:36 PM
So tell me, Do you think you can fall from grace? If a person was to be saved, and went out to the same very sin they were in as they started in before God changed them... you think that is fallen from grace? People can fail god.. and fall from grace. you can depart from god.. Look what happend in Exodus when the children of Israel were going to the promise land, and the people were being dying out in the wilderness, was it not the ones who sinned? Same way goes with us Christians, for the wages of sin is death, how can we go to our promise land (Heaven) with sin? We can't, God will not allow any sin into Heaven. If you Love him, you will keep his commandments, you will keep his statues.

Don't think I am being rude in any manner, I am just asking questions :)

Buck shot
Sep 10th 2008, 04:07 PM
Don't think I am being rude in any manner, I am just asking questions :)

Travis, do you believe that one sin will keep you out of heaven?

There are two camps here as has already been mentioned. There are many as myself who do not fit into either OSAS/NOSAS. This has been debated for the last 2000 years at least :lol:

Some from the extreme NOSAS believe you lose your salvation each time you sin and must be saved again (doesn't make since to me at all since we are not told we can be born again, again)

Many on the extreme OSAS side believe you can live however you want once you have said a prayer (doesn't make since to me, as Christ said "go and sin no more..." for a reason)

What i believe in is Security of the Saints.

If you are serving God and trying to live a sin-less life (hope to sin less today than i did yesterday so God can show me the next thing i need to correct in my walk) then your salvation is secure, you have no need to wonder about it.

If you choose to serve yourself instead of God then... i would not want to be in your shoes when you face Him.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 10th 2008, 07:06 PM
Hi Travis!

Can I ask; do you love the Lord?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If you now love the Lord, and at some stage later you stop loving the Lord, has "all things work[ed] together for good to them that love God"?

dispen4ever
Sep 10th 2008, 07:46 PM
It doesn't take a lot of typing for me to tell you, Travis, that you have misinterpreted EVERY ONE of your scripture references. They were not interpreted using 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. See the comments about the natural man, and in 16, those who have the "mind" (spiritual wisdom, insight, and understanding) of Christ. No one interpreting scripture under the leadership of the Holy Spirit could possibly come to the conclusion that we are saved by grace through faith, the GIFT of God, then add to that a series of other requirements.

dispen4ever
Sep 10th 2008, 07:50 PM
And this is what I see as the grand paradox. A great case can be made for either side using scripture. Both sides will describe the salvation state of the same set of people the same way. They are two ways of describing the same situation, despite appearing to be at odds with one another.

This is at the heart of the matter. The utter failure to rightly (spiritually) divide scripture. When one understands that, the TRUTH jumps off the Bible pages, and the paradox disappears.

dispen4ever
Sep 10th 2008, 07:58 PM
Many on the extreme OSAS side believe you can live however you want once you have said a prayer (doesn't make since to me, as Christ said "go and sin no more..." for a reason)


I have NEVER met anyone, heard anyone, conversationally, on radio, on TV, in church, in small group Bible study, in Sunday School, or anywhere else the OSAS group meets, say anything like that. On the contrary, they point out the importance of living the Christian life before God and humankind as the compelling influence in their lives. Do they slip into sin? Yes! I sin when a sinful thought crosses my mind! I sin when I'm clicking channels and linger too long on one with a lovely lady on the screen! I sin when I make a comment that I think is funny, but could very well be suggestive to a member of the opposite sex! However, God skillfully inserted 1 John 1:9 in scripture. That is where I run too, often several times daily. I praise God that He is faithful and just to forgive me, to restore our fellowship, and to continue to walk with me all the days of my life, NEVER NEVER NEVER letting go of me ~~~~ and Travis, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to let go of Him! He is the one holding on! Shall I continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! Thank you Father that your promise of eternal security for the authentically born-again Believer (ABAB) is TRUE and will NEVER be withdrawn.

To finish up, I can take every scripture Travis posted and, in fellowship with the Holy Spirit, provide the proper interpretation. LORD, that all would come to that place where spiritual interpretation of scripture is A-1!!! To that place where the personal pronoun "I" refers to the spiritual nature, not the flesh!!! Amen and Amen.

BroRog
Sep 10th 2008, 08:18 PM
Since this post resides in "Maturing in Christ" I believe we should not debate this strictly from a theological/theoretical point of view. Don't get me wrong, I am willing and able to do that. However, in terms of Christian Maturity these debates can be daunting for those who are trying to desperately hold on to the faith.

The approach here is to look at the issue from the perspective of the casual "folk" Christian, verses the genuine believer and the attitude each might take in view of a verse like Romans 10:9-10 (otherwise known as TNT)

Put yourself in the shoes of a young Christian who heard this verse and believed it with all her heart. And as she faces the hard exigence of day-to-day life, she clings to this promise to keep going. If I were to give her a theological response to Romans 10:9-10, I might explain that, while confession and belief are important to the genuine believer, this verse does not describe the sum and substance of genuine belief. There's more to the Christian life than that.

The danger, of course, is that a strictly theological explanation, one which seems to undercut a long held promise, one that appears to bring down the standard in the field of battle, might do more harm than good.

On the other hand, a man who has been led to believe that a single, one-time, confession of faith, is all there is to the Christian life, needs to hear the rest of the story and may have been misled to think he became a genuine believer at that moment, free to live like hell in the mean time. This person needs to hear that faith is not something we accomplish or grow out of.

Even I need to be reminded that knowing the truth is not enough. Not only must I know the truth, but I must BE the truth, I must live the truth each and every day.

I'm grateful for times when people remind me of the grace and faithfulness of God, like Partaker of Christ did. It's easy to become discouraged in our walk. And sometimes as we argue against "easy believism" we run the danger of being discouraging to others who might need to hear what Paul said about God and his faithfulness -- I will never leave you nor forsake you.

gophgetter
Sep 10th 2008, 08:49 PM
I would have to agre with BroRog. These type of dicussions can get very heated at times. This type of "discussion" is not really edifying, to new believers especially. Maybe this same topic should be posted in the Bible Chat section. If not, let's remember to have our words seasoned with salt, that they may minister grace to the hearers.

Goph

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 08:50 PM
Having salvation, does not mean that you are saved... We have to live life without sin, we endureth to the ending... This is a race, we finish when we die, not when we get born again in water, and in the spirit.

Again i have a lot of scripture from the Holy Bible to back this up. KJV is what i read from.

Hebrews 12:14-15
14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God. ( You can't fail unmerited favor, because its unmerited, but you can fail if you dont allow God's devine influence to reflect in your life!)

Galations 5:4
4. Christ is become of no effect in you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So you can fall from grace, and you once saved but no longer.

2 Peter 3:17
17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been bettter for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to here wallowing in the mire.

Hebrew 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but i will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
same as Matthew 10:22

Hebrew 3:12-17
12 Take heed, brethen, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart, as in the provocation. 16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17. But with whom he greived forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Romans 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuence in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. (I said this twice because it is important, all is important but i just want yall to know that last part.)

Overcomers: Jesus spoke to the Churches, to the born again believers and told them that they'd make it only if they overcome!

Revelation 2:5-7 (Ephesus)
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:10 (Smyrna)
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and i will give thee a crown of life.

Revelatoin 2:17 (Pergamus)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that recieveth it.

Revelation 2:26 (Thyatira)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

Revelation 3:21-22 (Laodicea)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Luke 15:21-24 (parable)
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in they sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fattest calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jude 3-7 (All Jude had for examples was the old testament)
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was neeful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (expressing lust or lewdness or excuse to sin), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved his people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The only thing God will NOT forgive is Blaspheme the Holy Ghost: (another proof that once in grace always in grace is falste teaching)

Hebrew 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



That took alot of of typing... but i just hope you guys will understand and take this and hide this word in your heart.... and grow stronger every day by doing so.. Hide the Word in your heart, so thou shalt not sin against God. God will forgive every sin but blaspheme, if you have sin in your life, turn it over to God, :pray: fall on your knees into repentance, Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

God Bless all of you, and I hope people grow encouraged through with the Word.. For I come to encourage people to the Truth, not to discourage if i sound so I do not. It is kind of hard to tell a distinct attitude on the computer, but if you meet me in person, you would know i am not so.. :)

Amen!!!:amen: I started a thread on this same thing in teh Apologetics section entitled "Eternal Security" in attmept to expalin how to be truly eternally secure.

Bless You!!!

Buck shot
Sep 10th 2008, 09:04 PM
Since this post resides in "Maturing in Christ" I believe we should not debate this strictly from a theological/theoretical point of view. Don't get me wrong, I am willing and able to do that. However, in terms of Christian Maturity these debates can be daunting for those who are trying to desperately hold on to the faith.

The approach here is to look at the issue from the perspective of the casual "folk" Christian, verses the genuine believer and the attitude each might take in view of a verse like Romans 10:9-10 (otherwise known as TNT)

Put yourself in the shoes of a young Christian who heard this verse and believed it with all her heart. And as she faces the hard exigence of day-to-day life, she clings to this promise to keep going. If I were to give her a theological response to Romans 10:9-10, I might explain that, while confession and belief are important to the genuine believer, this verse does not describe the sum and substance of genuine belief. There's more to the Christian life than that.

The danger, of course, is that a strictly theological explanation, one which seems to undercut a long held promise, one that appears to bring down the standard in the field of battle, might do more harm than good.

On the other hand, a man who has been led to believe that a single, one-time, confession of faith, is all there is to the Christian life, needs to hear the rest of the story and may have been misled to think he became a genuine believer at that moment, free to live like hell in the mean time. This person needs to hear that faith is not something we accomplish or grow out of.

Even I need to be reminded that knowing the truth is not enough. Not only must I know the truth, but I must BE the truth, I must live the truth each and every day.

I'm grateful for times when people remind me of the grace and faithfulness of God, like Partaker of Christ did. It's easy to become discouraged in our walk. And sometimes as we argue against "easy believism" we run the danger of being discouraging to others who might need to hear what Paul said about God and his faithfulness -- I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Great Post Brother!

faroutinmt
Sep 10th 2008, 09:07 PM
Something I would like to add: If one chooses to take the passage from Hebrews 6 and suggest that the writer is stating that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation, then one also has to believe that if someone does lose their salvation, they can never get it back. The passage says that if someone falls away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, yet none of the people who use this passage to defend loss of salvation would say that once you lose it, it's gone forever.

I also agree that there is no scripture which suggests that a person can be born again and again and again...

dispen4ever
Sep 10th 2008, 09:36 PM
Thank you, farout.

____________________________________

In response to the "right" forum, how is a babe in Christ, or a seeker, to discover the Truth of God's Word when gross distortion of scripture is posted and not rebutted? This is one of the reasons I have asked for a pastor-teacher forum where a pastor-teacher can do so without interruption or criticism. Those maturing in Christ can simply "go to church there", Bible at the ready, take notes, and so on, just as one does on Sunday morning during church.

____________________________________

An example of the spiritual comprehension of Hebrews 6:

Accept the verses as they are written, then rightly apply them. Hebrews is written primarily to the Hebrew people. That doesn't mean we toss it out. It means we "listen" to them, while rightly dividing and interpreting the scriptures there spiritually, not intellectually. Intellect = flesh, and flesh leads us down the primrose path to man's interpretation, not God's Truth.

Paul understands that the Jews, potential converts to Christianity, and Jewish Christians don't quite get what he has otherwise written, and what they have otherwise heard from followers of Christ. He writes the Book of Hebrews to assist their understanding. In essence, what Paul is saying is that IF IF IF a Jew inquires and makes a surface acceptance of Jesus, then rejects Him to go back to Judaism, there is no more sacrifice for sin. Ouch! He wants to convince them that while the temptation of returning to The Law is great, Christ has redeemed those who believe -- that the Law and traditions are totally unnecessary! It won't save them, it won't do them one ounce of good -- Christ already has for those who believe. And His Mercy endureth forever! His yoke is easy, and His burden is light, compared to the whole of The Law and Jewish traditions! Why O Why, Jewish folk, Jewish potential converts, Jewish Believers, would you want to return to the dead works of National Israel, the religion of Temple worship, the sacrifices! They can't take away sin! What are you doing, hanging out in the synagogue, ignoring Jesus, your Messiah, who is teaching you through the 12 plus the 70 plus Paul? Why?????????????

Hebrews 6 is tribulational, as well. Remember that the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah the first time He came. It goes something like this: If you Hebrews, keepers of the Law, sin wilfully (hearing the word of truth and rejecting it), after having been witnessed to by the 144,000 during the Great Tribulation, there is no longer a sacrifice for sin(s). You were given an opportunity to accept Christ as Savior by Jesus Himself. You rejected Him. Now here we are telling you about Him again, and you're going to reject Him again? Just remember - there is no longer a sacrifice! Your unbelief won't save you! You only have the assurance of a fearful judgment coming, which shall devour His adversaries!

Bottom line: We cannot rush to judgment about the interpretation of scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:1-16, among many others, is our rock-solid foundation, before and after which we humble ourselves in prayer for Holy Spirit spiritual enlightenment. Amen!

:-)

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 09:41 PM
The Lord does not excuse habitual sin in those who profess salvation under "grace". He does not bring judgment on a struggle, however it is folly to think one can live in sin after professing Christ, and think grace will cover it. Grace cannot excuse the saint for things that condemn sinners:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version):

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 (New King James Version):

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Galatians 5:16-21 (New King James Version):

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 5:9-14 (New King James Version)

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 (New King James Version):

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

2 Peter 2:4-10 (New King James Version):

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries...

Revelation 22:14-16 (New King James Version):

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Thus saith the Lord...do with it what you will...

Grace, and Peace...

PS...Revelation 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

faroutinmt
Sep 10th 2008, 11:42 PM
I personally believe that scripture teaches that our salvation comes through an eternal covenant and therefore it cannot be taken away. However, I believe that all of those warnings against falling away are there for good reason. We should be diligent to examine ourselves to make our calling and election sure. We must not think that eternal salvation is a license for sin. Anyone who thinks this way does not understand that we are saved in order to walk with God.

I believe that scripture balances itself out with both comforts and warnings. Paul himself knew that the gospel he preached in Romans would be interpreted by some to be a license for sin. That's why he posed the question he did in chapter 6. He preached justification through faith apart from works, but he wanted to make sure that people knew that true salvation must produce good works.

I firmly believe in comforting ourselves with the assurance of our complete forgiveness before God through Christ's blood. I also firmly believe in examining ourselves for evidences of His saving work lest we deceive ourselves in thinking we are saved when we are not.

ProjectPeter
Sep 11th 2008, 02:28 AM
I have NEVER met anyone, heard anyone, conversationally, on radio, on TV, in church, in small group Bible study, in Sunday School, or anywhere else the OSAS group meets, say anything like that. On the contrary, they point out the importance of living the Christian life before God and humankind as the compelling influence in their lives. Do they slip into sin? Yes! I sin when a sinful thought crosses my mind! I sin when I'm clicking channels and linger too long on one with a lovely lady on the screen! I sin when I make a comment that I think is funny, but could very well be suggestive to a member of the opposite sex! However, God skillfully inserted 1 John 1:9 in scripture. That is where I run too, often several times daily. I praise God that He is faithful and just to forgive me, to restore our fellowship, and to continue to walk with me all the days of my life, NEVER NEVER NEVER letting go of me ~~~~ and Travis, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to let go of Him! He is the one holding on! Shall I continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! Thank you Father that your promise of eternal security for the authentically born-again Believer (ABAB) is TRUE and will NEVER be withdrawn.

To finish up, I can take every scripture Travis posted and, in fellowship with the Holy Spirit, provide the proper interpretation. LORD, that all would come to that place where spiritual interpretation of scripture is A-1!!! To that place where the personal pronoun "I" refers to the spiritual nature, not the flesh!!! Amen and Amen.
Then you don't listen much. There are many that teach this... straight up or as in many cases veiled... but it is taught and by many. Charles Stanley, Bob George, Bob Yandian, etc. etc. The list is rather long.

amazzin
Sep 11th 2008, 02:40 AM
.To finish up, I can take every scripture Travis posted and, in fellowship with the Holy Spirit, provide the proper interpretation. LORD, that all would come to that place where spiritual interpretation of scripture is A-1!!! To that place where the personal pronoun "I" refers to the spiritual nature, not the flesh!!! Amen and Amen.

Sure you can. From what I read so far from you, you are excellent at tearing down. Glad you are not my pastor!

ProjectPeter
Sep 11th 2008, 03:12 AM
Simple fact guys... Buckshot is correct. There are different beliefs on both sides of this debate... one that has raged on since the very early years of the church. To paint them all with one broad brush is not doing much for fair discussion.

Most the folks in here are beyond being new in Christ and you are now working on growing in maturity. This is a doctrinal divide that you will find that crops up a lot because the issue dictates a lot of other doctrines. You'll find some godly folk on both sides of the issue and as sure as night follows day... you will find some ungodly ones on both sides of the issue as well!

So you guys talk away about this... just don't go for the jugglar vein! ;)

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 04:29 AM
Thank you for most of your concerns..

I know there is something called falling from grace, for we all falling short of the glory of God, before, and we can fall from the grace of God.

Blasphemy is proof of once in grace always in grace is not true....

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Mark 3:28-30
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit

Jesus Christ said this and He is the Word.

wondercoolguy
Sep 11th 2008, 02:14 PM
I am a OSAS'er

Eph

{1:13} In whom ye also[trusted,] after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of
your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
{1:14} Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph
{4:30} And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.

The Salvation we get belongs to God and its His salvation.

John

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {10:28}
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. {10:29} My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than
all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand. {10:30} I and [my] Father are one.

The problem I have is if some one can "get saved" then turn around and continue down the same path as before with out a change did they truly get saved? If you have a person who's been serving God and just side tracked by the Devil, he's still a believer he's just in a backslidden state.

IMO that God does not write in disappearing reappearing ink. Meaning once your name is in the Lamb's book of Life it's there for ever.

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 02:38 PM
I am a OSAS'er

Eph

{1:13} In whom ye also[trusted,] after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of
your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
{1:14} Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the

purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph
{4:30} And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.

The Salvation we get belongs to God and its His salvation.

John

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {10:28}
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. {10:29} My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than
all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand. {10:30} I and [my] Father are one.

The problem I have is if some one can "get saved" then turn around and continue down the same path as before with out a change did they truly get saved? If you have a person who's been serving God and just side tracked by the Devil, he's still a believer he's just in a backslidden state.

IMO that God does not write in disappearing reappearing ink. Meaning once your name is in the Lamb's book of Life it's there for ever.


Your name can be blotted out of the book of life..

and he said no man is able pluck you out of his hands.. no man, but yourself.... he can blot your name out of the book of life, That is why Paul said he dies daily, he repents daily he wants to be pure and without any sin.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 11th 2008, 02:40 PM
IMO that God does not write in disappearing reappearing ink. Meaning once your name is in the Lamb's book of Life it's there for ever.


Revelation 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

So the possibility of it being "blotted" out is there...

faithfulfriend
Sep 11th 2008, 02:42 PM
Revelation 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

So the possibility of it being "blotted" out is there...

Being blotted out of the book of life is Biblical:

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Buck shot
Sep 11th 2008, 03:22 PM
Being blotted out of the book of life is Biblical:

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I'm grateful for times when people remind me of the grace and faithfulness of God, like Partaker of Christ did. It's easy to become discouraged in our walk. And sometimes as we argue against "easy believism" we run the danger of being discouraging to others who might need to hear what Paul said about God and his faithfulness -- I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Both sides of the same coin, now find the balance.

Serve God instead of self and don't worry about your salvation!

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 03:39 PM
Buckshot, I don't mean to get off topic well i do but are you much of a hunter? Just the name Buckshot just rings a bell that you might go deer hunting.. lol

Buck shot
Sep 11th 2008, 04:13 PM
Buckshot, I don't mean to get off topic well i do but are you much of a hunter? Just the name Buckshot just rings a bell that you might go deer hunting.. lol
No problem, yes i used to. I don't get the chance to much now. I prefer bow hunting since we can't run dogs anymore... ;)

Buckshot was my CB handle years ago because of the mudgrips that "sang" on my truck... :lol:

Oregongrown
Sep 11th 2008, 04:42 PM
I personally believe that scripture teaches that our salvation comes through an eternal covenant and therefore it cannot be taken away. However, I believe that all of those warnings against falling away are there for good reason. We should be diligent to examine ourselves to make our calling and election sure. We must not think that eternal salvation is a license for sin. Anyone who thinks this way does not understand that we are saved in order to walk with God.

I believe that scripture balances itself out with both comforts and warnings. Paul himself knew that the gospel he preached in Romans would be interpreted by some to be a license for sin. That's why he posed the question he did in chapter 6. He preached justification through faith apart from works, but he wanted to make sure that people knew that true salvation must produce good works.

I firmly believe in comforting ourselves with the assurance of our complete forgiveness before God through Christ's blood. I also firmly believe in examining ourselves for evidences of His saving work lest we deceive ourselves in thinking we are saved when we are not.

I loved your writing. Especially when I read the part about "true salvation must produce good works". Since I was born-again, God has never let me go. I have been stubborn, rebellious, and downright disobedient at times. I relate a lot to Jonah. David too, but mostly Jonah in that, I "don't wanna". So God allows me to sit in "the belly of the fish" and stew about my "self-made" situation. God has not always so "gently" taught me that it's just plain better all 'round if I obey Him:) Like in loving my brother/sister as myself. In doing that God brings about those good works in our life, not of any virtue of my own so all Glory to God:)

God bless your day and thank you for your post, ysic, denise

Athanasius
Sep 11th 2008, 05:10 PM
At the tender age of I came to the Lord. That's to say if you're an Arminian. On the other hand, the Lord called me to Himself at the tender age of [I don't remember]. That's to say if you're a Calvinist.

It's an important doctrine to discuss and one that [I]needs to be discussed, but I don't think it's one that should split us and cause an almost atagonistic division. With that said I wouldn't describe myself as Arminian or Calvinist, but I definitely lean more towards the Arminian side of things.

stoomart
Sep 11th 2008, 05:14 PM
Once you repent to God for your sins and believe in Christ Jesus through faith, you are adopted and become a child of God. Some children disobey and even turn their backs on their parents but like the prodigal son, if they ever truly loved their Father, they would return and He would welcome them back with open arms.

All the verses warning about falling away are just that, warnings to get the attention of God's true children to leave their disobedience and come back to Him. Those who do not heed the warning and just don't care, I believe were never truly His children. 1 John 2:19 speaks of false teachers but I believe it is true also for God's children:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Just like the parable of the sower, only the person who the seed was able to live and produce fruit was a true conversion, that is why it's called the narrow gate and difficult road, there are few who find it.

So, don't be offended by this truth, embrace it, listen to the Spirit and do what you know is right, do not be a child who God is ashamed of to be your Father or even worse, not your father at all. Be assured of the hope that is in you, that Christ Jesus is risen and is coming back to judge, be ready and watch.


In Christ's love, stoo

p.s. I'm sort of in the same boat as Xel'Naga, I believe the Arminians and the Calvinists are both right, in that savation includes our will as well as God sovereignty. I also believe they are both wrong, in that they each exclude the other, since both lines exist as truth that meet and agree together in the mind of God.

Oregongrown
Sep 11th 2008, 05:26 PM
Once you repent to God for your sins and believe in Christ Jesus through faith, you are adopted and become a child of God. Some children disobey and even turn their backs on their parents but like the prodigal son, if they ever truly loved their Father, they would return and He would welcome them back with open arms.

All the verses warning about falling away are just that, warnings to get the attention of God's true children to leave their disobedience and come back to Him. Those who do not heed the warning and just don't care, I believe were never truly His children. 1 John 2:19 speaks of false teachers but I believe it is true also for God's children:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Just like the parable of the sower, only the person who the seed was able to live and produce fruit was a true conversion, that is why it's called the narrow gate and difficult road, there are few who find it.

So, don't be offended by this truth, embrace it, listen to the Spirit and do what you know is right, do not be a child who God is ashamed of to be your Father. Be assured of the hope that is in you, that Christ Jesus is risen and is coming back to judge, be ready and watch.


In Christ's love, stoo

p.s. I'm sort of in the same boat as Xel'Naga, I believe the Arminians and the Calvinists are both right, in that savation includes our will as well as God sovereignty. I also believe they are both wrong, in that they each exclude the other, since both lines exist as truth that meet and agree together in the mind of God.

I thought about writing something on my belief in "truly converted" folks not turning from God and losing salvation but I suppose I wasn't sure it was from the Holy Spirit. I do believe that what you are saying though is indeed of the Holy Spirit:) and maybe God's Way of letting me know that my belief is from the Holy Spirit also:) God bless, ysic, denise

BattleStance
Sep 11th 2008, 07:57 PM
I will not write on the current topic, dont want to get in the middle of this, but I will say that the children of God do not need to be hooked onto all these names of things, am I an calvinist or an arminian or how ever you spell it.

How come we cant just be a Child of God, a son or daughter of the King.

All this denomination, all these names for being a christian, what is the point of all that, lets get out of all this name stuff, and get into God.

I can call myself a christian or pentecostle or non denominational [which I am], but them are just names and what I stand for, I would rather just be called a Son of God.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 11th 2008, 08:18 PM
Luke 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luke 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luke 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luke 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

Luke 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luke 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luke 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luke 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Note:

"she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head."

"this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet."

"this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment."

"And he [Jesus] said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

The evidence of true faith, is love in action. "This woman" did not need a commandment to love, for her heart was changed. She had a new heart of flesh.

He who loves much has been forgiven much, but he who loves little has been forgiven little.

How much have we been forgiven?

Oregongrown
Sep 11th 2008, 09:48 PM
I will not write on the current topic, dont want to get in the middle of this, but I will say that the children of God do not need to be hooked onto all these names of things, am I an calvinist or an arminian or how ever you spell it.

How come we cant just be a Child of God, a son or daughter of the King.

All this denomination, all these names for being a christian, what is the point of all that, lets get out of all this name stuff, and get into God.

I can call myself a christian or pentecostle or non denominational [which I am], but them are just names and what I stand for, I would rather just be called a Son of God.

I don't believe for a minute Gods ideal for us was to be divided by what man calls religion. The bible says religion is caring for widows and orphans. I think nothing brings division save one thing and that is ego/pride. I cant agree more with your thoughts above. If all christians truly wanted to please God and only God, there would be no division. I am not saying I am one that wants to only please God either since my ego and pride still take up space that should be filled with God:rolleyes:. But I do know I am growing a little each day:) God bless you bro, ysic, denise

Oregongrown
Sep 12th 2008, 05:42 AM
Revelation 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

So the possibility of it being "blotted" out is there...

Jesus is telling that those saved won't be blotted out. Those that have been saved and repented. I don't see Him talking about saved folks being blotted out or your "it" meaning salvation, being taken away. He is talking about those that are not saved and repentent. That is what I see anyway. He will blot out those who were not sincere or genuine. Like the verse where He says "I never knew you".

4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#) [fn2] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#_fnt_2) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

God bless, denise

superwoman8977
Sep 12th 2008, 02:15 PM
If you sit there and keep wondering about whether you are saved or not then how are you supposed to be at peace with Him? I mean I am just asking, I used to worry about sin and everything and question my salvation all the time and now I am 31 years old a single divorced mom of 2 kids and a 3rd one on the way and no I havent lived my life perfect by any means but I know I am saved because He died on the cross for a wretch like me. I have not always done the "Christian thing" believe you and me but I have peace because I have an awesome relationship with the Lord, without Him I wouldnt have made it the last few months.

BroRog
Sep 12th 2008, 02:40 PM
If you sit there and keep wondering about whether you are saved or not then how are you supposed to be at peace with Him? I mean I am just asking, I used to worry about sin and everything and question my salvation all the time and now I am 31 years old a single divorced mom of 2 kids and a 3rd one on the way and no I havent lived my life perfect by any means but I know I am saved because He died on the cross for a wretch like me. I have not always done the "Christian thing" believe you and me but I have peace because I have an awesome relationship with the Lord, without Him I wouldnt have made it the last few months.

This is true Christian maturity in my opinion. Thanks for sharing that.

ProjectPeter
Sep 15th 2008, 04:35 AM
Jesus is telling that those saved won't be blotted out. Those that have been saved and repented. I don't see Him talking about saved folks being blotted out or your "it" meaning salvation, being taken away. He is talking about those that are not saved and repentent. That is what I see anyway. He will blot out those who were not sincere or genuine. Like the verse where He says "I never knew you".

4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#) [fn2] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#_fnt_2) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp#) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

God bless, denise
If He never knew them... why would they be in the book to be blotted out? ;)

slipnshoe
Sep 21st 2008, 08:30 PM
I am an OSAS champion. I've been having this heated discussion with a friend of mine who's the a NOSAS supporter. I believe that their side makes no sense because she claims that if you give your life to Jesus you MUST stop doing the things you used to do, i.e. you must stop sinning. She believes that if you stop being gay or stop having extra-marital sex you are truly converted and saved. I counter that by saying that no matter how many sins you give up you still are a sinner. And that NOSASers start trying to earn their salvation. So how can she maintain that if you cease from doing one major sin in your life you are truly saved? This is like with other religions where you are always afraid of not being saved. I say that since no matter how hard you try you still are a sinner, you are saved ONCE AND FOR ALL when you truly believe in Jesus. Otherwise you wind up worrying about your salvation every time you commit the same old sin. And you are bound to sin always. So how can the NOSASers pretend that if they change their ways and repent they are free from any sin? They are still sinners and thus they could never earn their salvation! Thus, when the Bible warns us of certain sins, it applies to those people who didn't give their lives to Jesus at the time. Thus, they were all condemned. But today, we are saved by Jesus, no matter if we just tell white lies or commit murder. Salvation is free and you cannot earn it. When God warns of sin, he warns us of problems it entails every time you sin, NOT to condemn us! Sure, you can go on being promiscuous, but what if you catch a STD or make someone pregnant? God wants us to live a happy life and thus he warns us of sin. But sin cannot blot out our salvation. God just wants us to try to live a better life. Yet he knows that we are bound to fail but he forgives us each and every time.
When I gave my life to Jesus, it awakened a new conscience in me but I still sin and feel bad about it. Beforehand, I just didn't care. I try to be a better person because I know that sin is gonna do me no good in THIS LIFE ON EARTH. Sin cannot seperate me from God's love though. Jesus died for every sin I am committing.

stoomart
Sep 21st 2008, 09:09 PM
Dear slipnshoe,

Once we repent and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior by grace, through faith, we are no longer sinners but saints. Yes it is true that while we are still on this Earth we do sin as the flesh wars against the spirit. But as God's word grows in us, the fruit of the Spirit manifests itself by good works and obedience to God's will and the strangle-hold sin had on our life should be released as we are holy and are sanctified to the image of His Son Christ Jesus.

So you are correct, you can't be saved by good works, but good works are the product of the Holy Spirit in us. I love ProjectPeter's signature since it is so true in describing so many wayward believers or straight-up illegitimate children of God: "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

A true child of God will seek to do everything they can to please their Father and make Him happy, not try to get by with as little as they can do and just expect that the safety net they've heard about called grace will catch them on their fall straight into hell. The bible is very clear about abusing the spirit of grace, it is not a place you want to be. If anyone is there, don't despise this truth, use it as the warning it's meant to be and get yourself into to the right relationship you need with your loving Father in heaven.


In Christ's love, stoo

slipnshoe
Sep 21st 2008, 09:25 PM
To me, the NOSASers DO try to be saved through good work. But, salvation is free. All you need to do is give your life to Jesus wholeheartedly. And in most cases, people are gonna be living with a new conscience. And this is the pivotal point. What if I never was gay, an adulterer, or abusive father? What if I never was a truly bad person? I give my life to Jesus and then do what? Stop telling white lies or I go to hell? This is absurd and ridiculous and smacks of Islam or Buddhism where you have to constantly weigh the sin you committed. And this is the path all NOSASers are heading. Because they believe that when you give your life to Jesus you MUST stop committing a certain sin. And yet, for God, all sins weigh the same. Therefore, you could never please a perfect God. And I would never ever want to constantly worry about my salvation as the NOSASers do. Salvation is free, but whether your new life in Jesus bears fruit is not important in your salvation. Because all the good work you do, you do VOLUNTARILY and God does not force you to give your tithe or be active in your parish. I believe that sin is there to guide is in this life,i.e. show us how to avoid dangers so that we can live happily in this world. And since I am v´convinced that God knows better, I try to avoid sin not because I have to but because I trust God that he is wise and that if I stick to his rules I'm gonna have a fruitful life in THIS world, irrespective of my eternal life in heaven.

ProjectPeter
Sep 22nd 2008, 02:03 AM
To me, the NOSASers DO try to be saved through good work. But, salvation is free. All you need to do is give your life to Jesus wholeheartedly.Wholeheartedly? Interesting choice of words I suppose... wonder who has done this that hasn't done good works.


And in most cases, people are gonna be living with a new conscience.Most cases? How can one only have to "give their heart to Jesus wholeheartedly and it be "in all cases?"


And this is the pivotal point. What if I never was gay, an adulterer, or abusive father? What if I never was a truly bad person?You'd still be a "bad" person. Since none of us are good... there is only one option left eh?


I give my life to Jesus and then do what? Stop telling white lies or I go to hell? This is absurd and ridiculous and smacks of Islam or Buddhism where you have to constantly weigh the sin you committed.Well... white lies has about as much usefulness as white witches. If one is a witch then they are a witch. If one is a liar then one is a liar. Why complicate it with the whole "white", "black" or whatever color we want to make up to lesson the truth that one is simply a liar if they lie? And oh yeah.... was John absurd and ridiculous when he penned these words?

Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Maybe not as absurd as you think?


And this is the path all NOSASers are heading. Because they believe that when you give your life to Jesus you MUST stop committing a certain sin.You mean like when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go, sin no more?" Perhaps like when Paul told the Corinth church to become sober minded and stop sinning as you ought? I mean stop sinning... perish such a thought!!! Yet truth be told... Bible is full of verses that tell us to do that very thing. So not sure why you'd be so down with that message! I figure reading the Bible must be quite painful that being the case!


And yet, for God, all sins weigh the same. Therefore, you could never please a perfect God. And I would never ever want to constantly worry about my salvation as the NOSASers do. Salvation is free, but whether your new life in Jesus bears fruit is not important in your salvation. Because all the good work you do, you do VOLUNTARILY and God does not force you to give your tithe or be active in your parish. I believe that sin is there to guide is in this life,i.e. show us how to avoid dangers so that we can live happily in this world. And since I am v´convinced that God knows better, I try to avoid sin not because I have to but because I trust God that he is wise and that if I stick to his rules I'm gonna have a fruitful life in THIS world, irrespective of my eternal life in heaven.Sure you can please Him! With faith.

Colossians 1:9 ¶For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

brakelite
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:56 AM
To find a solution to this perennial debate I think we are asking the wrong questions. I believe that instead of asking "who is saved and for how long?" we should be asking ourselves (and God) 'what is it that God is trying to accomplish in His people?'
I believe that God desires to reverse and correct everything that went wrong at the fall. To gain back on behalf of mankind all that he lost to the enemy, and more. For man to regain that intimate relationship with his Creator; that loving communion that Adam and Eve had before the fall. We all know that face to face intimacy will not be possible while we are in this body of flesh and bone, but to counter that disadvantage God has gone a step further for us than what Adam or Eve had, and that is the incredible privilege of having His Spirit inside us.
To restore us to that state of peace and harmony with our Creator, that state whereby we can know of a surety that 'there is now no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus', I believe it is God's most deepest desire for us that we overcome sin. It was sin that brought about the death of His own Son. It was sin that brought about the death of billions before us, and it is sin that will bring about the death of billions ahead of us. It is death, the wages of sin, that will bring about the complete separation between man and God for all eternity for those who have not the faith to believe. It is sin that is such an abomination to God that that He could not even bring Himself to look upon the death of His own Son when the burden of sin was laid upon Jesus at calvary.
It was disobedience to God that brought about all the death and sickness and wars and pain and suffering of the last 6000 years : God desires this to change. He does not want the enemy to have any cause to gloat over Him by claiming that man cannot obey the laws of God because 'they are too tough' or that 'man is too weak'. Sin is never inevitable. God encourages us through His word that when temptation comes, He is there by our side with all the strength that we need if we but ask Him. The problem folks is why do we not ask more often? Again, the flesh. We believe Satan's suggestions that
a. oh, I can't help myself;
b. I can't believe that God wants to help me here
c. it's only a little lie, God understands
d. Or it doesn't matter if I sin, God's grace is sufficient for me!!!
e Simple out and out greed or lust or covetousness or whatever.
The truth is that God has made every provision available for us to overcome and live a life of righteousness. In doing so, He has ensured that we are not relying upon our own strength, because Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing. Romans 5 tells us in verse 17 & 18 that the righteousness that God gives us and the life that we live as a result is a gift. It is not our own works when we seek to live a life of obedience. It is a desire that God has placed in our hearts through the new birth. His law is now in our hearts, we seek to obey Him because we love Him. We do this by faith, by trusting in His power to make it possible. If we fail, we confess our sin, and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from unrighteousness and we submit ourselves further, we feed the spirit and starve the flesh that we shall not fall again. It is a battle, a warfare between the flesh and the spirit. But God desires that He have a people living holy happy lives of faith and onedience to all His commandments.
Jesus said that 'greater love hath no man than He that lays down His life for His friends. And ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you.'
Dare anyone suggest that we remain friends by advocating and living a life of disobedience? Dare anyone suggest that considering that weakness of the flesh God has not made ample power available to us to overcome? I think Satan exalts when he reads and hears all the mamby- pamby excuses made for sin. There are no excuses! To claim that sin is inevitable, or that obedience is impossible, is an open expression of a lack of faith in the power of God. Now it is true, that that power that God makes available to us to be effective is incumbent upon our surrendering to Him. That is why the scriptures are so full of exhortations to do just that. That God's power may be made readily manifest in our lives and that His love and grace and righteousness be manifest to the world as a witness to all nations that God indeed is a God of mercy, grace, power, love, and faithfulness.
Once saved always saved? Of course, if we fulfil that role that God desires for every one of His children. "If ye love Me , keep My commandments."

slipnshoe
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:17 PM
Wholeheartedly? Interesting choice of words I suppose... wonder who has done this that hasn't done good works.

Most cases? How can one only have to "give their heart to Jesus wholeheartedly and it be "in all cases?"

You'd still be a "bad" person. Since none of us are good... there is only one option left eh?

Well... white lies has about as much usefulness as white witches. If one is a witch then they are a witch. If one is a liar then one is a liar. Why complicate it with the whole "white", "black" or whatever color we want to make up to lesson the truth that one is simply a liar if they lie? And oh yeah.... was John absurd and ridiculous when he penned these words?

Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Maybe not as absurd as you think?

You mean like when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go, sin no more?" Perhaps like when Paul told the Corinth church to become sober minded and stop sinning as you ought? I mean stop sinning... perish such a thought!!! Yet truth be told... Bible is full of verses that tell us to do that very thing. So not sure why you'd be so down with that message! I figure reading the Bible must be quite painful that being the case!

Sure you can please Him! With faith.

Colossians 1:9 ¶For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I was saying is that you are expected to stop sinning but if you sin again you are forgiven each and every time! Paul and Jesus were laying down the law that we have to aspire to as Christians.We needed those laws to tell right from wrong. Yet, this utter perfection that Jesus and Paul taught is unattainable for us imperfect humans. We cannot follow all those rules. They are just there as the absolute truth and ideal that we are supposed to aspire to. Paul and Jesus couldn't have given us just some mediocre compromise to abide by! Thus, we are all sinners and are gonna continue sinning by our very existence. This is the basic tenet of Christianity. We gave our life to Jesus so that we are washed from all our sins. One simple question, ProjectPeter: Are you a sinner or not? Can you ever stop sinning? If you give up one big sin after conversion, can you claim that you are without sin? No, you can't. To say the opposite is blasphemy because only Jesus is without sin. Therefore, when Paul was condemning liars and murderers he was condemning those who had yet to convert to Jesus. You cannot attain God's grace through ceasing to sin because you are always gonna be a sinner. And all sins weight the same: Be it just a petty theft of a chewing gum or murder. We all fall short of God's grace and that's why he gave it to us for free. Once saved always saved is the only reasonable approach. Anything else opens you up to laboring to obtain grace. This is common in Islam and buddhism but not in Christianity.

slipnshoe
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
To find a solution to this perennial debate I think we are asking the wrong questions. I believe that instead of asking "who is saved and for how long?" we should be asking ourselves (and God) 'what is it that God is trying to accomplish in His people?'
I believe that God desires to reverse and correct everything that went wrong at the fall. To gain back on behalf of mankind all that he lost to the enemy, and more. For man to regain that intimate relationship with his Creator; that loving communion that Adam and Eve had before the fall. We all know that face to face intimacy will not be possible while we are in this body of flesh and bone, but to counter that disadvantage God has gone a step further for us than what Adam or Eve had, and that is the incredible privilege of having His Spirit inside us.
To restore us to that state of peace and harmony with our Creator, that state whereby we can know of a surety that 'there is now no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus', I believe it is God's most deepest desire for us that we overcome sin. It was sin that brought about the death of His own Son. It was sin that brought about the death of billions before us, and it is sin that will bring about the death of billions ahead of us. It is death, the wages of sin, that will bring about the complete separation between man and God for all eternity for those who have not the faith to believe. It is sin that is such an abomination to God that that He could not even bring Himself to look upon the death of His own Son when the burden of sin was laid upon Jesus at calvary.
It was disobedience to God that brought about all the death and sickness and wars and pain and suffering of the last 6000 years : God desires this to change. He does not want the enemy to have any cause to gloat over Him by claiming that man cannot obey the laws of God because 'they are too tough' or that 'man is too weak'. Sin is never inevitable. God encourages us through His word that when temptation comes, He is there by our side with all the strength that we need if we but ask Him. The problem folks is why do we not ask more often? Again, the flesh. We believe Satan's suggestions that
a. oh, I can't help myself;
b. I can't believe that God wants to help me here
c. it's only a little lie, God understands
d. Or it doesn't matter if I sin, God's grace is sufficient for me!!!
e Simple out and out greed or lust or covetousness or whatever.
The truth is that God has made every provision available for us to overcome and live a life of righteousness. In doing so, He has ensured that we are not relying upon our own strength, because Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing. Romans 5 tells us in verse 17 & 18 that the righteousness that God gives us and the life that we live as a result is a gift. It is not our own works when we seek to live a life of obedience. It is a desire that God has placed in our hearts through the new birth. His law is now in our hearts, we seek to obey Him because we love Him. We do this by faith, by trusting in His power to make it possible. If we fail, we confess our sin, and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from unrighteousness and we submit ourselves further, we feed the spirit and starve the flesh that we shall not fall again. It is a battle, a warfare between the flesh and the spirit. But God desires that He have a people living holy happy lives of faith and onedience to all His commandments.
Jesus said that 'greater love hath no man than He that lays down His life for His friends. And ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you.'
Dare anyone suggest that we remain friends by advocating and living a life of disobedience? Dare anyone suggest that considering that weakness of the flesh God has not made ample power available to us to overcome? I think Satan exalts when he reads and hears all the mamby- pamby excuses made for sin. There are no excuses! To claim that sin is inevitable, or that obedience is impossible, is an open expression of a lack of faith in the power of God. Now it is true, that that power that God makes available to us to be effective is incumbent upon our surrendering to Him. That is why the scriptures are so full of exhortations to do just that. That God's power may be made readily manifest in our lives and that His love and grace and righteousness be manifest to the world as a witness to all nations that God indeed is a God of mercy, grace, power, love, and faithfulness.
Once saved always saved? Of course, if we fulfil that role that God desires for every one of His children. "If ye love Me , keep My commandments."

Sorry, but you just claimed that through prayer we can earn grace and become perfect humans without sin. Grace is gratis, you do not earn it through prayer! This is blasphemy due to your misreading of the Bible. Sin IS inevitable because we all are born sinners and remain sinners all our lives by our very existence that we inherited from Adam and Eve!The Bible shows us the absolute truth that we humans try to attain AFTER we have been saved. Of course we are supposed to avoid sin, but we are born sinners and are always gonna be sinners. There is not a single person without sin, no matter how much you pray to God. Grace is for free and what you propose is that through prayer and obedience you earn it. This is a false doctrine and unchristian. When you give your life to Jesus, you are saved without any preconditions. What you do with your new life is not germaine to being saved. You are saved once and for all. Of course, then God expects you to live a good life but no matter how hard you try, it's never gonna be good enough and therefore you could never earn grace. Still, you try not to sin because you know that it's gonna help you in this life. You do not avoid sin in order to earn grace! You cannot earn grace. You just can't.

faithfulfriend
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:29 PM
Sorry, but you just claimed that through prayer we can become perfect humans without sin. This is blasphemy due to your misreading of the Bible. The Bible shows us the absolute truth that we humans try to attain AFTER we have been saved. Of course we are supposed to avoid sin, but we are born sinners and are always gonna be sinners. There is not a single person without sin, no matter how much you pray to God. Grace is for free and what you propose is that through prayer and obedience you earn it. This is a false doctrine and unchristian. When you give your life to Jesus, you are saved without any preconditions. What you do with your new life is not germaine to being saved. You are saved once and for all. Of course, then God expects you to live a good life but no matter how hard you try, it's never gonna be good enough. Still, you try not to sin because you know that it's gonna help you in this life. You do not avoid sin in order to earn grace! You cannot earn grace. You just can't.

Are you forced to commit sin? Or do you choose to commit sin? :hmm:

stoomart
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:47 PM
To me, the NOSASers DO try to be saved through good work.Though I do agree there are people who overburden themselves and others with a legalistic lifestyle and lose sight of God's heart in the matter for us to be obedient and holy (set apart), this statement is an aweful big brush-stroke and I don't believe it accurately depicts the beliefs of the majority of these folks. The same would be true if I said every OSAS person uses grace as a license to continue sinning, it's just flat-out wrong. On a matter like this, I like what someone on here recently said "Satan doesn't care which side of the horse we fall off", this pertains to pretty much all cases that are not clearly black and white where there exists danger in both extremes.


stoo

slipnshoe
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:56 PM
Are you forced to commit sin? Or do you choose to commit sin? :hmm:

It's not pertinent to being saved because you are born a sinner anyway. So whether you commit a sin on top of that is irrelevant to God's grace. Grace is for free and this reassurance is unique to Christianity. And this is what makes God's grace so overwhelming and generous.

slipnshoe
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:00 PM
Though I do agree there are people who overburden themselves and others with a legalistic lifestyle and lose sight of God's heart in the matter for us to be obedient and holy (set apart), this statement is an aweful big brush-stroke and I don't believe it accurately depicts the beliefs of the majority of these folks. The same would be true if I said every OSAS person uses grace as a license to continue sinning, it's just flat-out wrong. On a matter like this, I like what someone on here recently said "Satan doesn't care which side of the horse we fall off", this pertains to pretty much all cases that are not clearly black and white where there exists danger in both extremes.


stoo

True, there are dangers on both sides but the fact of the matter is that the NOSASers mix up two things: being saved and living a good life. You can be saved and live a debauched life(though this may be a very rare case) OR you are saved and try living a good Christian life. In both cases though, you fall short of God's grace. But you are trying to abide by God's law voluntarily because you know it makes sense and NOT because you are trying to earn brownies to go to heaven. But this is what NOSASers suggest. It's unchristian and blasphemous.

stoomart
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:07 PM
slipnshoe,

I have been teaching Hebrews for the last two months or so and am curious what your thoughts are on the following two passages. For the record, as I posted earlier, I don't believe a person who was truly converted and born again can lose their salvation, I believe these passages are speaking about the person who came just short of true conversion and walked away from the cross in disobedience, never to again return. Also, they are written to believers as a warning and caution about to keep on going and not return their vomit as it is said.


Hebrews 6:4-8

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8. but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Hebrews 10:26-31

26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


stoo

slipnshoe
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:12 PM
I agree with it being a warning not to abandon God. To me, the only way you lose your salvation is through blaspheming the Holy Ghost and thus rejecting God and Jesus, i.e. when you become an atheist after your conversion. But anybody who believes in God will not sin happily, even if they know they are on the safe side. There's still gonna be this little voice in their heads telling them it's gonna do them no good in this life, though they are still saved.

stoomart
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:22 PM
But anybody who believes in God will not sin happily, even if they know they are on the safe side.Agreed, and this is what Romans 6 addresses specifically, same with Jude as well as the cited Hebrews passages, among others. The key is to warn and exhort our brothers and sisters when we see them in error, making sure we first remove the beam out of our own eye so we can see clearly to remove the spec from their eye. In other words, we must never correct another hypocritically.

slipnshoe
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:49 PM
Amen, brother......................

Partaker of Christ
Sep 23rd 2008, 07:45 PM
slipnshoe,

I have been teaching Hebrews for the last two months or so and am curious what your thoughts are on the following two passages. For the record, as I posted earlier, I don't believe a person who was truly converted and born again can lose their salvation, I believe these passages are speaking about the person who came just short of true conversion and walked away from the cross in disobedience, never to again return. Also, they are written to believers as a warning and caution about to keep on going and not return their vomit as it is said.


Hebrews 6:4-8

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8. but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hi Stoo!

I believe that these are Christians, for how could they fall away, if they were not in the way. The passage also speak of 'renew' and 'crucify again'

My understanding of this reading is to simply confirm, that once you have crucified the Son of God to yourself, you cannot do it afresh (again). If it were possible, then Christ crucified would be no better then the old way of regular sacrifices. It would put His death for us on the cross to shame, in that it would have not been a perfect work. Jesus Christ died once for all sin.

Once the foundation is laid that no man could lay, it cannot be relayed. If one would fall 'aside' and they were brought back, they pick up from were they fell.

Rev 2:5a Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;

Works are what we build on the sure foundation, not the foundation itself.


Hebrews 10:26-31

26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

stoo

This is to those who 'after we have received the knowledge'

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

In other words the gospel has been preached to them, that there remain no more sacrifice for sin. After having received that knowledge, they then continue with the daily sacrifices. This is trampling underfoot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, an unholy thing. This is the wilful sin spoken of.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

brakelite
Sep 24th 2008, 08:25 AM
Sorry, but you just claimed that through prayer we can earn grace and become perfect humans without sin. Grace is gratis, you do not earn it through prayer! This is blasphemy due to your misreading of the Bible. Sin IS inevitable because we all are born sinners and remain sinners all our lives by our very existence that we inherited from Adam and Eve!The Bible shows us the absolute truth that we humans try to attain AFTER we have been saved. Of course we are supposed to avoid sin, but we are born sinners and are always gonna be sinners. There is not a single person without sin, no matter how much you pray to God. Grace is for free and what you propose is that through prayer and obedience you earn it. This is a false doctrine and unchristian. When you give your life to Jesus, you are saved without any preconditions. What you do with your new life is not germaine to being saved. You are saved once and for all. Of course, then God expects you to live a good life but no matter how hard you try, it's never gonna be good enough and therefore you could never earn grace. Still, you try not to sin because you know that it's gonna help you in this life. You do not avoid sin in order to earn grace! You cannot earn grace. You just can't.

Prayer is how we relate to God. How can we acknowlege sin and repent without prayer?
I agree with you that we are born sinners. I dont know about you, but I've been born again. I have a new life, a new power, a new motivation for living, a new hope, and a new purpose. That purpose is to bring glory to my Savior. To do otherwise is sin. Remember, the branches that didn't bear fruit were chopped off and burnt. The branches are God's people, they are attached to the vine, Jesus. No grapes though, and you are history.
I did not say that we avoid sin to earn grace. I said that it is by the grace of God that we avoid sin. The grace comes first. Without God I can do nothing. With Him all things are possible.:pp

Richard H
Sep 24th 2008, 11:26 AM
I used to "believe” in Once Saved Always Saved, because it was taught everywhere I looked.
Still, even as a brand new Christian, I knew that I could burn out and fall away.
I wasn’t sure that if I was called to martyrdom, I could be strong enough.
Satan used to torture me with this.

One day I couldn’t take the torture anymore and prayed that God would grant me peace that He would see me through.
That He would sustain me and if I managed to get distracted, He would draw me back to Himself.

He granted me this peace, with the knowledge that it was not license.

Through the years, He has been faithful, yet I know I MUST remain in Him.

Scripture is clear that if we do not remain in Him, and He in us, we cannot bear fruit that will last.
We will be known by our fruit: evidence that we remain attached to the vine.
If we do not bear good fruit, we will in the end - be cut off as dead branches.

He will not cut us off while there is yet life and time.
And He is able to keep us until that day.

Many of the lessons in the OT reveal this: repent and return and be healed.

Remain in Him so that He will remain in you.

(My added bit of advice: look for the narrow gate.)

Richard

Partaker of Christ
Sep 24th 2008, 12:48 PM
I used to "believe” in Once Saved Always Saved, because it was taught everywhere I looked.
Still, even as a brand new Christian, I knew that I could burn out and fall away.
I wasn’t sure that if I was called to martyrdom, I could be strong enough.
Satan used to torture me with this.

One day I couldn’t take the torture anymore and prayed that God would grant me peace that He would see me through.
That He would sustain me and if I managed to get distracted, He would draw me back to Himself.

He granted me this peace, with the knowledge that it was not license.

Through the years, He has been faithful, yet I know I MUST remain in Him.

Scripture is clear that if we do not remain in Him, and He in us, we cannot bear fruit that will last.
We will be known by our fruit: evidence that we remain attached to the vine.
If we do not bear good fruit, we will in the end - be cut off as dead branches.

He will not cut us off while there is yet life and time.
And He is able to keep us until that day.

Many of the lessons in the OT reveal this: repent and return and be healed.

Remain in Him so that He will remain in you.

Hi Richard!

If we are in Christ, we will abide in Him.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


(My added bit of advice: look for the narrow gate.) Richard

The narrow gate is Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

He is the Door that we must enter in by, and there is no other door (narrow)

Just as He is the narrow gate, He is also the narrow path. 'I am the Way'

It is ALL of Him, and none of us. He must increase, and we must decrease.

Just as the narrow gate, is not Christ +, so also is true of the narrow way.

Richard H
Sep 24th 2008, 01:29 PM
Hi Richard!

If we are in Christ, we will abide in Him.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



The narrow gate is Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

He is the Door that we must enter in by, and there is no other door (narrow)

Just as He is the narrow gate, He is also the narrow path. 'I am the Way'

It is ALL of Him, and none of us. He must increase, and we must decrease.

Just as the narrow gate, is not Christ +, so also is true of the narrow way.

Thank you, Partaker.
I agree Yeshua/Jesus IS the gate. (I should have been more clear.)
We must follow the Spirit along our path, but don’t look for the gate everyone else is headed toward.
Instead seek the narrow gate. Seek God and His intent only.

Be (all of us) about your Father’s work with love and faithfullness.

Richard

lendtay
Sep 24th 2008, 08:26 PM
Having salvation, does not mean that you are saved... We have to live life without sin, we endureth to the ending... :)

How does one live life without sin?

DavidStrickland
Sep 24th 2008, 08:37 PM
Hebrew 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Well if you don't like once saved always saved you'll have to go once fallen always fallen for based on the very scripture you quoted.
"For it is impossible ... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance."

And considering the fact that I can't remember the last day I went without sin. I'm either eternally secure or eternally lost. Heb. 6:4-6 leaves no room for anything in the middle.

stoomart
Sep 24th 2008, 09:16 PM
Dear brother David,

Very well said, I completely agree with you. When I was studying these scriptures, I had to first throw out what I do know the bible says. For instance, if this is saying that once you are saved and then backslide that you cannot come back to the Father, then we might as well throw out the parable of the prodigal son and all other scripture referring to God's mercy towards those who have godly repentance. This is why I believe the passages are referring to those who were never truly saved as well as a warning to those who believe they have salvation to not mess around with God's grace.

You can taste the riches of God's kingdom while being drawn by the Holy Spirit and still choose to reject Him. This is when it is most dangerous to walk away, when you are fully aware of your sinful situation and all of God's promises to you, yet you walk away and can never return. You're basically spitting in Jesus' face while He's hanging there on the cross, you can't recover from something like that when you are no longer ignorant of your actions.

Notice that even though the writer of Hebrews doesn't believe it applies to those specific people, he still writes it as a warning, something that needed to be said in exhortation.

stoomart
Sep 24th 2008, 09:28 PM
Hi Stoo!

I believe that these are Christians, for how could they fall away, if they were not in the way. The passage also speak of 'renew' and 'crucify again'

My understanding of this reading is to simply confirm, that once you have crucified the Son of God to yourself, you cannot do it afresh (again). If it were possible, then Christ crucified would be no better then the old way of regular sacrifices. It would put His death for us on the cross to shame, in that it would have not been a perfect work. Jesus Christ died once for all sin.

Once the foundation is laid that no man could lay, it cannot be relayed. If one would fall 'aside' and they were brought back, they pick up from were they fell.

Rev 2:5a Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;

Works are what we build on the sure foundation, not the foundation itself.Hello!

My understanding is that just like the whole book of Hebrews keeps referring to the "one and only sacrifice", there is no other sacrifice other than Jesus to cover you. If you reject the last and final sacrifice, there is none other that will cover you, you're done.


This is to those who 'after we have received the knowledge'

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

In other words the gospel has been preached to them, that there remain no more sacrifice for sin. After having received that knowledge, they then continue with the daily sacrifices. This is trampling underfoot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, an unholy thing. This is the wilful sin spoken of.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.I don't see this as referring to the daily sacrifices though I do think it's an interesting idea, but a bit short-sited for what the writer of Hebrews is going for. I think again it's referring to the singleness and completeness of the sacrifices, to reject Christ's final and finished sacrifice, there will be no other by which you can be saved (makes sense with what Jesus and the apostles were teaching anyway).


In Christ's love, stoo

Partaker of Christ
Sep 24th 2008, 10:23 PM
Hello!

My understanding is that just like the whole book of Hebrews keeps referring to the "one and only sacrifice", there is no other sacrifice other than Jesus to cover you. If you reject the last and final sacrifice, there is none other that will cover you, you're done.

I don't see this as referring to the daily sacrifices though I do think it's an interesting idea, but a bit short-sited for what the writer of Hebrews is going for. I think again it's referring to the singleness and completeness of the sacrifices, to reject Christ's final and finished sacrifice, there will be no other by which you can be saved (makes sense with what Jesus and the apostles were teaching anyway).


In Christ's love, stoo

Hi again stoo!

How do you account for: 'fall away', (if they were not already in the way) 'renew' and 'crucify to themselves afresh'

stoomart
Sep 24th 2008, 11:36 PM
Hi again stoo!

How do you account for: 'fall away', (if they were not already in the way) 'renew' and 'crucify to themselves afresh'In verse 7 and 8, the writer gives an example for what they are talking about by referring to a cursed ground that produced no fruit (thorns and briers) after receiving the same seed and rain as the blessed fruitful ground.

I think there's two perspectives on this issue, one is the heart of God toward the repentant offender and the other is the heart of the unrepentant offender. The following two passages are ones that show God's heart and His capacity in forgiveness.


Psalm 103:8-12

8. The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9. He will not always strive with us, nor will He keep His anger forever.
10. He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities.
11. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.


Luke 17:3-4

3. Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”


Obviously a wicked person could look at these verses as a license to continue to sin, but it is my belief that this person has the same heart as the person the passages in Hebrews are talking about, they were never truly repentant and obviously do not fear God.

Hebrews 12:28-29

28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
29. For our God is a consuming fire.


I just want to make it clear that none of us will know for sure until judgment day, but until then, it is best to seek God's heart in the matter so we can be assured of our salvation (see 1 John).


In Christ's love, stoo

ProjectPeter
Sep 25th 2008, 11:49 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I was saying is that you are expected to stop sinning but if you sin again you are forgiven each and every time!Just like that... automatically? Nothing else need happen just POOF! You have a "that sin doesn't matter" card that Christian's get issued on their conversion day?


Paul and Jesus were laying down the law that we have to aspire to as Christians.We needed those laws to tell right from wrong. Yet, this utter perfection that Jesus and Paul taught is unattainable for us imperfect humans.Really? And you see in there where they say this is not something that we can really do? I've read the Bible through at least once or twice there abouts and I've never seen that written. Perhaps you can enlighten me to where that is?


We cannot follow all those rules. They are just there as the absolute truth and ideal that we are supposed to aspire to. Paul and Jesus couldn't have given us just some mediocre compromise to abide by! Thus, we are all sinners and are gonna continue sinning by our very existence. So then sin and flesh still has more power over us than the Spirit?


This is the basic tenet of Christianity. We gave our life to Jesus so that we are washed from all our sins. One simple question, ProjectPeter: Are you a sinner or not? Can you ever stop sinning? If you give up one big sin after conversion, can you claim that you are without sin? No, you can't. To say the opposite is blasphemy because only Jesus is without sin.Jesus was born without sin and lived His life free of sin. That's the difference between Jesus and all other men. The only other man not born in sin was Adam but Adam didn't continue in that. Jesus too born without sin... lived His life free of sin. Other than that... why is it blasphemy to stop sinning. To say it is blasphemy to say one stopped sinning... the same would be blasphemy to tell folks to stop sinning if you knew in fact this was impossible... right?


Therefore, when Paul was condemning liars and murderers he was condemning those who had yet to convert to Jesus. You cannot attain God's grace through ceasing to sin because you are always gonna be a sinner. And all sins weight the same: Be it just a petty theft of a chewing gum or murder. We all fall short of God's grace and that's why he gave it to us for free. Once saved always saved is the only reasonable approach. Anything else opens you up to laboring to obtain grace. This is common in Islam and buddhism but not in Christianity.Well... sin is sin but fact... murder and stealing a piece of chewing gum, while both sin, rest yourself assured murder carries much more condemnation. Folks need to figure that out. Just as other sins such as hypocricy which carries greater condemnation. ;)

Now... I suppose if you want to run around claiming to be a sinner then that is certainly your bag of tea and you're going to brew in it.

ProjectPeter
Sep 25th 2008, 11:52 AM
It's not pertinent to being saved because you are born a sinner anyway. So whether you commit a sin on top of that is irrelevant to God's grace. Grace is for free and this reassurance is unique to Christianity. And this is what makes God's grace so overwhelming and generous.
So when a "Christian" sins it is your belief that it just doesn't matter because God doesn't see it as sin or count it as sin?

Phil Fourie
Sep 25th 2008, 12:54 PM
Due to the nature of this topic and the debate arising from it, this thread is better suited in the Bible Chat forum, thus moving it

Studyin'2Show
Sep 25th 2008, 01:41 PM
Sorry, but you just claimed that through prayer we can earn grace and become perfect humans without sin. Grace is gratis, you do not earn it through prayer! This is blasphemy due to your misreading of the Bible. Sin IS inevitable because we all are born sinners and remain sinners all our lives by our very existence that we inherited from Adam and Eve!The Bible shows us the absolute truth that we humans try to attain AFTER we have been saved. Of course we are supposed to avoid sin, but we are born sinners and are always gonna be sinners. There is not a single person without sin, no matter how much you pray to God. Grace is for free and what you propose is that through prayer and obedience you earn it. This is a false doctrine and unchristian. When you give your life to Jesus, you are saved without any preconditions. What you do with your new life is not germaine to being saved. You are saved once and for all. Of course, then God expects you to live a good life but no matter how hard you try, it's never gonna be good enough and therefore you could never earn grace. Still, you try not to sin because you know that it's gonna help you in this life. You do not avoid sin in order to earn grace! You cannot earn grace. You just can't.Proverbs 23:7 tells us ' For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.' After we are 'born again' should we continue to think as a sinner? Romans 12:2 says that we are to renew our minds as does the following passage.

Ephesians 4:23
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I know that I have been created a 'new man' in righteousness and holiness, unlike my first birth in the flesh. As Proverbs 23 says, as we think in our heart of ourselves we will BE! If we continue to think of ourselves as the 'old man'/the sinner won't we, according to that scripture continue to be, the sinner. I would rather think of myself as God's word describes me.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I don't glory in myself, I glory in Him! :pp I can not stand in my own righteousness but I can stand firm in His! :pp As in my heart I think I am the 'new man' crated in true righteousness and holiness in Him! I will never be righteous in my flesh but I am not to think of myself as the 'old man' in the flesh but as the 'new man' in the spirit.

God Bless!

P.S. We are all here to edify each other. Blasphemy is not a charge we should throw at fellow followers of Messiah because they may interpret scripture differently. Remember, we are not saved by interpretation, we are all save by grace! :)

Partaker of Christ
Sep 25th 2008, 07:27 PM
Just like that... automatically? Nothing else need happen just POOF! You have a "that sin doesn't matter" card that Christian's get issued on their conversion day?

Really? And you see in there where they say this is not something that we can really do? I've read the Bible through at least once or twice there abouts and I've never seen that written. Perhaps you can enlighten me to where that is?

So then sin and flesh still has more power over us than the Spirit?

Jesus was born without sin and lived His life free of sin. That's the difference between Jesus and all other men. The only other man not born in sin was Adam but Adam didn't continue in that. Jesus too born without sin... lived His life free of sin. Other than that... why is it blasphemy to stop sinning. To say it is blasphemy to say one stopped sinning... the same would be blasphemy to tell folks to stop sinning if you knew in fact this was impossible... right?

Well... sin is sin but fact... murder and stealing a piece of chewing gum, while both sin, rest yourself assured murder carries much more condemnation. Folks need to figure that out. Just as other sins such as hypocricy which carries greater condemnation. ;)

Now... I suppose if you want to run around claiming to be a sinner then that is certainly your bag of tea and you're going to brew in it.

Hi Ken!

Sin is sin no matter what it looks like. No matter how great or how small.
All sin rots, decays and kills.

God hates, abhors, detests all sin, even the very spot or stain of sin. That is why whoever took the scapegoat out into the wilderness, had to remove all his garments and wash his whole body, before he could re-enter inside the camp.

Even the very smallest of sin has the death penalty.

One man commits the act of adultery, another man looks at another woman with lust. Both have committed sin worthy of death.

One man commits an act of murder, another calls his brother a fool. Both have committed sin worthy of death.

My heart's Desire
Sep 26th 2008, 03:44 AM
Nothing to add here since its all been said before...but I will always believe someone truly saved is never lost again. So yes OSAS. I have the confidence that once someone is saved My Lord Jesus will Never, Ever lose them. He said He would save and give them eternal life and I believe Him.
His power is very strong! I'm trusting Him to do that for me and certainly not trusting myself to save myself except that I believe HIM.

markedward
Sep 26th 2008, 05:58 AM
I have NEVER met anyone, heard anyone, conversationally, on radio, on TV, in church, in small group Bible study, in Sunday School, or anywhere else the OSAS group meets, say anything like that.You know... just because you've never met anyone like this doesn't mean they don't exist. This is a flawed logic you're trying to use. That would be like me saying I've never met a Nazi, so they must not exist. I know a good number of OSAS who believe exactly what was described: that once a person is saved they can essentially use that as a sin-license.

Firstfruits
Sep 26th 2008, 10:08 AM
With the understanding that to sin is not in the will of God, if we therefore sin against Gods will, how does the following scripture apply?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Richard H
Sep 26th 2008, 02:20 PM
With the understanding that to sin is not in the will of God, if we therefore sin against Gods will, how does the following scripture apply?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

It would seem to indicate that said individuals were not acting in accordance with the Spirit.
Many good people perfom good deeds, yet that will not earn a place in Heaven.
‘Even touting a Christian label will not do it, if one is acting in the flesh.
We are to remain in Him – attached to the vine – in order to bear good fruit.
(Beginning with the fruit of the Spirit.)

Richard

Firstfruits
Sep 26th 2008, 04:23 PM
It would seem to indicate that said individuals were not acting in accordance with the Spirit.
Many good people perfom good deeds, yet that will not earn a place in Heaven.
‘Even touting a Christian label will not do it, if one is acting in the flesh.
We are to remain in Him – attached to the vine – in order to bear good fruit.
(Beginning with the fruit of the Spirit.)

Richard

Thanks Richard,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Rhyfelwr
Sep 26th 2008, 04:28 PM
If someone appears to fall from grace then surely it is because they were never truly saved in the first place?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 26th 2008, 04:49 PM
If someone appears to fall from grace then surely it is because they were never truly saved in the first place?How could they fall from grace had they never attained grace? :hmm:

Firstfruits
Sep 26th 2008, 04:49 PM
If someone appears to fall from grace then surely it is because they were never truly saved in the first place?

Can you fall from grace if you never had it?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 26th 2008, 04:55 PM
If someone appears to fall from grace then surely it is because they were never truly saved in the first place?


Notice carefully that Rhyfelwer said "appears" to have fallen from grace.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 26th 2008, 05:49 PM
Notice carefully that Rhyfelwer said "appears" to have fallen from grace.Hebrews 6 speaks of those who fall away. I saw the appears and my question still applies.

God Bless!

Rhyfelwr
Sep 26th 2008, 11:15 PM
Notice carefully that Rhyfelwer said "appears" to have fallen from grace.

Thank you! That word was a pretty important one in my sentence!

Richard H
Sep 26th 2008, 11:29 PM
Grace is not a permanent state of being, so that “having attained it” one is free to do as one chooses.
We are to remain in Him. It is the only way to produce fruit that lasts.

In the parable of the seeds.
It was all good seed, but some germinated and then dried up.
Others were carried away by the distractions of the world.
Still others continued to grow and produce fruit.

Grace, to me, is not a stamped ticket to Heaven. (A get out of jail free card.)
It’s receiving God’s mercy, love and forgiveness on a daily basis.

Richard

Firstfruits
Sep 27th 2008, 06:41 PM
Grace is not a permanent state of being, so that “having attained it” one is free to do as one chooses.
We are to remain in Him. It is the only way to produce fruit that lasts.

In the parable of the seeds.
It was all good seed, but some germinated and then dried up.
Others were carried away by the distractions of the world.
Still others continued to grow and produce fruit.

Grace, to me, is not a stamped ticket to Heaven. (A get out of jail free card.)
It’s receiving God’s mercy, love and forgiveness on a daily basis.

Richard

Would the following scripture apply to this?

Heb 12:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Meaning that if we do not stand we will fall?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Sep 27th 2008, 08:27 PM
I think the Bible teaches that once a man comes to belief, it is not guaranteed that he will continue in belief. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, the Bible also teaches that once God saves a man, he will always remain a believer.

OSAS is true as long as we DON'T assume that a believer is automatically saved at the moment of conversion.

Richard H
Sep 27th 2008, 08:55 PM
Would the following scripture apply to this?

Heb 12:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Meaning that if we do not stand we will fall?

Firstfruits
Hi FirstFruits, J
Yes.
The entire 12th chapter of Hebrews speaks to the matter.
Here's some additional Scripture to shed some light.

Remain in Me, and I in you. As the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.
John 15:4

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
John 15:16

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:1

Even this exortation to one of the churches in the book of Revelation.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:5

The value of discussing OSAS is only to point out that it is not sound doctrine. It is wishful thinking, which allows people to go their way while all the time staying in jeopardy.
It calls for no real change on the part of the hearer. It does not call us to be doers of the Word and not hearers only.

Think about it, saints. Put yourself in God’s place – or even that of Jesus, having suffered and died in our stead.
Would it be sufficient that a person simply make a one-time decision so as to get one’s name in the book?
Or did He give us the Holy Spirit to make us a new creation in Christ and lead us toward the (always future) goal of “perfection”.
And allowing us grace when we fall short, stumble or even fall.

Speaking of this higher call - far above the letter of the Law, Paul said:
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:12,14

Thankfully, God always extends grace to us through Jesus Christ until the Day of Judgment – or rather the day of our death.
Gambling for a deathbed salvation speaks volumes as to one’s lack of sincerity.
At that time we will either have to stand on our own or have stayed in grace – having stood firm until the end.

Richard

Richard H
Sep 27th 2008, 09:10 PM
I am not saying that there is no peace in the assurance that He is able to complete the good work that He began in us, but we are to remain in Him to allow that to happen.

Richard

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 1:6
:pp

ProjectPeter
Sep 27th 2008, 09:13 PM
Hi Ken!

Sin is sin no matter what it looks like. No matter how great or how small.
All sin rots, decays and kills.If you go back and read... you will see where I clearly said just that. ;)


God hates, abhors, detests all sin, even the very spot or stain of sin. That is why whoever took the scapegoat out into the wilderness, had to remove all his garments and wash his whole body, before he could re-enter inside the camp.

Even the very smallest of sin has the death penalty.

One man commits the act of adultery, another man looks at another woman with lust. Both have committed sin worthy of death.Sure... both committed adultery.


One man commits an act of murder, another calls his brother a fool. Both have committed sin worthy of death.Sure... both murdered.

[quote]

My heart's Desire
Sep 27th 2008, 09:14 PM
Hi FirstFruits, J

The value of discussing OSAS is only to point out that it is not sound doctrine. It is wishful thinking, which allows people to go their way while all the time staying in jeopardy.

Richard

Oh, I believe it is a very sound doctrine. Like having faith that the Lord Jesus is the ONLY way to become saved is very sound doctrine. Anything less is putting people in constant fear that they cannot or may not measure up in some way and that is exactly why the Lord Jesus died for us because none will ever measure up on their own.

Richard H
Sep 27th 2008, 09:21 PM
Oh, I believe it is a very sound doctrine. Like having faith that the Lord Jesus is the ONLY way to become saved is very sound doctrine. Anything less is putting people in constant fear that they cannot or may not measure up in some way and that is exactly why the Lord Jesus died for us because none will ever measure up on their own.
One might be in constant fear if one was attempting to do it of one’s own power.

It is called grace. Read my next post.

Richard

My heart's Desire
Sep 28th 2008, 03:13 AM
How can you remain in the unmerited favor (grace) of God when you don't merit it to begin with?

Richard H
Sep 28th 2008, 05:19 AM
How can you remain in the unmerited favor (grace) of God when you don't merit it to begin with?
None of us deserve grace. To remain in grace is to continue to receive it.
‘To continue following the Lord and accept His mercy, His love and His guidance.

Making a “decision” – meaning: to say a particular prayer at one time is a first step.
The idea that this decision is all that is needed – that now one’s name is written in the book so “that’s taken care of” - leads a person to assume that the process of being a disciple is optional.

Having taken that first step, we need to learn to walk with the Lord.

I must reiterate – When one has made a commitment to be a Christian, we should not be fearful that we are not truly saved.
We make the decision and allow Him to change us.
Having done (and continue to do) that we can be confident that He is faithful to see us through.
When we notice these changes or even how we fall short, we can be sure the He is at work in us.
This gives hope for the resurrection of the just.
‘A justification not by our own merit. ‘An undeserved justification - the mercy and grace afforded to us through Jesus.

In short:
When you are making progress or see that you are on the path -
When you see that you are not making progress, but still desire to –
It’s clear that you are open to growing in the Lord.
Take heart and be assured that He is able to complete his work in you.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:3,9

If you need more, than pray for His peace. But always continue to grow and mature.

I was taught OSAS, and yet I kept seeing Scripture which said differently.
When it comes to believing Scripture or something or somebody else, I prefer Scripture.

To have a person say a one-time prayer and tell them that these “magic words” are all that is needed - is a disservice to the individual and to God.

Richard

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 28th 2008, 04:07 PM
None of us deserve grace. To remain in grace is to continue to receive it.
‘To continue following the Lord and accept His mercy, His love and His guidance.

Making a “decision” – meaning: to say a particular prayer at one time is a first step.
The idea that this decision is all that is needed – that now one’s name is written in the book so “that’s taken care of” - leads a person to assume that the process of being a disciple is optional.

Having taken that first step, we need to learn to walk with the Lord.

I must reiterate – When one has made a commitment to be a Christian, we should not be fearful that we are not truly saved.
We make the decision and allow Him to change us.
Having done (and continue to do) that we can be confident that He is faithful to see us through.
When we notice these changes or even how we fall short, we can be sure the He is at work in us.
This gives hope for the resurrection of the just.
‘A justification not by our own merit. ‘An undeserved justification - the mercy and grace afforded to us through Jesus.

In short:
When you are making progress or see that you are on the path -
When you see that you are not making progress, but still desire to –
It’s clear that you are open to growing in the Lord.
Take heart and be assured that He is able to complete his work in you.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:3,9

If you need more, than pray for His peace. But always continue to grow and mature.

I was taught OSAS, and yet I kept seeing Scripture which said differently.
When it comes to believing Scripture or something or somebody else, I prefer Scripture.

To have a person say a one-time prayer and tell them that these “magic words” are all that is needed - is a disservice to the individual and to God.

Richard


To the bold part, this is not the definition for the security of salvation's call...

If God is sovereign in all things, if He is active and not passive, if He is the author, giver and sustainer of life, If salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone and adding because of God, least any man should boast, all who believe are not all who are saved.... for there are those for whom they have a knowledge of God -- but not a heart of God....

Just as God knows tomorrow - He also directs, for His will cannot be twarted.... and He knows and purposes all He has given to Jesus... the challenge we all have is that as disciples, to live in 'is it I?' The point is that we all strive to live in the works He has prepared for us, that works and obedience do not save us, but are evidences of salvation within us.... For works or obediences without out God are dead works....

So it is never a prayer or a carte blanc statement to say OSAS.... It's with humility and with a continual repentive heart that brings light by His Spirit in us that declares to the Father, this one is Mine.


For His Glory...

Richard H
Sep 28th 2008, 04:56 PM
To the bold part, this is not the definition for the security of salvation's call...

If God is sovereign in all things, if He is active and not passive, if He is the author, giver and sustainer of life, If salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone and adding because of God, least any man should boast, all who believe are not all who are saved.... for there are those for whom they have a knowledge of God -- but not a heart of God....

Just as God knows tomorrow - He also directs, for His will cannot be twarted.... and He knows and purposes all He has given to Jesus... the challenge we all have is that as disciples, to live in 'is it I?' The point is that we all strive to live in the works He has prepared for us, that works and obedience do not save us, but are evidences of salvation within us.... For works or obediences without out God are dead works....

So it is never a prayer or a carte blanc statement to say OSAS.... It's with humility and with a continual repentive heart that brings light by His Spirit in us that declares to the Father, this one is Mine.


For His Glory...

Amen. Amen. And Amen!
God knows our hearts and He will do as He wills.
Still, we must cling to Him as if our lives depended on it. It does.

Jesus told us to follow Him - that's my point.

Richard

RogerW
Sep 28th 2008, 06:17 PM
Amen. Amen. And Amen!
God knows our hearts and He will do as He wills.
Still, we must cling to Him as if our lives depended on it. It does.

Jesus told us to follow Him - that's my point.

Richard

Greetings Richard,

Absolutely agree with both you and Rbg here! I just wanted to add one small reminder...remember Who is the power, or where the power comes that enables God's redeemed to walk with Him forever!

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Sep 29th 2008, 05:48 PM
How could they fall from grace had they never attained grace? :hmm:

We have grace for many things.

Paul was saved by grace, and he also had grace for the thorn in his flesh.

Salvation is by grace, and our daily walk is by grace.

If one falls from grace to live by, does that mean they have lost Salvation by grace?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 29th 2008, 06:31 PM
We have grace for many things.

Paul was saved by grace, and he also had grace for the thorn in his flesh.

Salvation is by grace, and our daily walk is by grace.

If one falls from grace to live by, does that mean they have lost Salvation by grace?Why such a stern warning if there was nothing to lose? :hmm: Look, I will be the first to tell you that nothing can pluck you from the hands of our Savior. But I will also tell you that you or I can freely choose to leave those hands. Yeshua exhorts us to 'remain' in the Vine. This tells me that someone can leave the vine. Why else would He tell us to make sure we stay in Him?

John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

What are these unfruitful branches that 'were' in Him but is withered and cast into the fire?

God Bless!

Partaker of Christ
Sep 29th 2008, 09:41 PM
Why such a stern warning if there was nothing to lose? :hmm: Look, I will be the first to tell you that nothing can pluck you from the hands of our Savior. But I will also tell you that you or I can freely choose to leave those hands. Yeshua exhorts us to 'remain' in the Vine. This tells me that someone can leave the vine. Why else would He tell us to make sure we stay in Him?

John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

What are these unfruitful branches that 'were' in Him but is withered and cast into the fire?

God Bless!

Hi Studyin'2Show!

Who said we have nothing to lose?
There are many things that we could lose, but does that mean we can lose our Salvation? Can we undo what Almighty God has done?

"But I will also tell you that you or I can freely choose to leave those hands."

This 'free will' is not free will, no matter how many times 'you tell me'

When we come to Christ, we surrender our lives to Him (including our so called free will) If we don't, then we cannot be 'In Christ'. For God declares that we are dead (crucified with Christ). If we have been baptized, then we have been buried (you don't bury the living, you bury the dead). When we decide to be baptized, we are agreeing with God, and His judgment upon us, that we are dead. If we are not dead, then we cannot have resurrection, for there is no resurrection until there is first death and burial.

If you want your free will, then you are telling God, that you disagree with Him, and that you are not dead.

Num 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.


As for the 'Abide in me', we who are in Christ 'DO' abide.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 29th 2008, 11:21 PM
One would not LOSE their salvation as you might misplace your keys or your wallet. However, according to the words of Yeshua, there are those 'branches' who are not fruitful who 'will be cut off and cast into the fire'. Who are these unfruitful branches? Do you think Yeshua saying they will be cast into the fire is a negative thing?

Richard H
Sep 29th 2008, 11:48 PM
One would not LOSE their salvation as you might misplace your keys or your wallet. However, according to the words of Yeshua, there are those 'branches' who are not fruitful who 'will be cut off and cast into the fire'. Who are these unfruitful branches? Do you think Yeshua saying they will be cast into the fire is a negative thing?

It would be negative for the unfruitful branches. <gulp>

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 12:33 AM
One would not LOSE their salvation as you might misplace your keys or your wallet. However, according to the words of Yeshua, there are those 'branches' who are not fruitful who 'will be cut off and cast into the fire'. Who are these unfruitful branches? Do you think Yeshua saying they will be cast into the fire is a negative thing?

But He does not say they will be cast into the fire. He says they will be taken away.

Did God say 'You shall not eat of it' or as Eve said 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it'

Lets stick to what He said.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 12:34 AM
But He does not say they will be cast into the fire. He says they will be taken away.

Did God say 'You shall not eat of it' or as Eve said 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it'

Lets stick to what He said.Excuse me?

John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 12:40 AM
But He does not say they will be cast into the fire. He says they will be taken away.

Did God say 'You shall not eat of it' or as Eve said 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it'

Lets stick to what He said.
What has the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil have to do with the fruit of the Spirit?
And whether or not we are once saved always saved?

Richard

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 12:43 AM
What has the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil have to do with the fruit of the Spirit?
And whether or not we are once saved always saved?

RichardI think they were implying that I was adding to Scripture but I reposted the passage from the mouth of the Savior that says that the unfruitful branches WILL be cast into the fire. ;)

God Bless!

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 12:52 AM
I think they were implying that I was adding to Scripture but I reposted the passage from the mouth of the Savior that says that the unfruitful branches WILL be cast into the fire. ;)

God Bless!

Oh :D Heehee.

Well, we are in agreement S2S.

Firstfruits
Sep 30th 2008, 12:25 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Mk 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 01:22 PM
Excuse me?

John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


Hi again Studyin'2Show!

This is about 'any man who does not abide in Him' Not about the branch in Him that bears no fruit.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

v2 The branch is in Him (taken away)

v6 Any man not in Him (cast forth 'as a branch' and withers, gathered and cast into the fire)

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 03:44 PM
Hi again Studyin'2Show!

This is about 'any man who does not abide in Him' Not about the branch in Him that bears no fruit.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

v2 The branch is in Him (taken away)

v6 Any man not in Him (cast forth 'as a branch' and withers, gathered and cast into the fire)Spin it any way you like. The branches are us. In v. 6 He is STILL using the branch as a symbol of the 'man' that does not 'stay' in Him. It says that it is withered. Does the man wither or is this a reference to the life of the branch dissipating BECAUSE it is no longer 'in Him? Remember that He says to His disciples that it is His disciples that are the branches. Then He warns them to abide in Him. Why would He need to do that if once they were His disciples they could no longer NOT be in Him. Just the fact that He was speaking to those who were His speaks volumes.

I will be diligent to do as the passages firstfruits posted make clear. Endure until the end! I hope you will too!

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Sep 30th 2008, 03:47 PM
Hi again Studyin'2Show!

This is about 'any man who does not abide in Him' Not about the branch in Him that bears no fruit.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

v2 The branch is in Him (taken away)

v6 Any man not in Him (cast forth 'as a branch' and withers, gathered and cast into the fire)

If you abide in Christ and then turn away from Christ, would V6 not apply? because if you are not in Christ then from what are you being cast away?

Firstfruits

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 04:15 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Mk 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Thanks

Firstfruits
Hi FirstFruits,
Verses like these are just why I decided to rethink what I had been taught – the popular and fairly modern concept of Once Saved ALWAYS Saved.
Thank you.

I see and hear teachings all the time – where hoops must be set up and then jumped through - in order to justify Feel Good (and even escapist) doctrine.

I always have to wonder who is trying to tickle my ears.
And in the end – understanding and doing the Word is my way of showing God that I hear and obey.

And so - I endeavor to endureth - even unto death if need be.

Richard

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 06:48 PM
Spin it any way you like. The branches are us.

How can you call, keeping to what the word does say 'spin'?

Its is there in the word;
v2 a branch in Christ (abiding), but bearing no fruit.

v6 'any man not in Christ' (not abiding)



In v. 6 He is STILL using the branch as a symbol of the 'man' that does not 'stay' in Him.

Sorry, but He is not using the branch v2, as a symbol of the man, in v6.

v2 = a branch in me

v6 = a man not in me

Stay?
v6 Does not indicate 'stay', but 'in'
It is not about 'endurance', but about being 'in'. He is our dwelling place. He is were we live.



It says that it is withered. Does the man wither or is this a reference to the life of the branch dissipating BECAUSE it is no longer 'in Him? Remember that He says to His disciples that it is His disciples that are the branches. Then He warns them to abide in Him. Why would He need to do that if once they were His disciples they could no longer NOT be in Him. Just the fact that He was speaking to those who were His speaks volumes.

He may be speaking to His disciples, but does that mean He was speaking about them?
He says "If ANY MAN, not 'if any of you'



I will be diligent to do as the passages firstfruits posted make clear. Endure until the end! I hope you will too!

God Bless!

I am in Christ, and Christ in me. Therefore I will endure until the end!!

Firstfruits
Sep 30th 2008, 06:57 PM
Hi FirstFruits,
Verses like these are just why I decided to rethink what I had been taught – the popular and fairly modern concept of Once Saved ALWAYS Saved.
Thank you.

I see and hear teachings all the time – where hoops must be set up and then jumped through - in order to justify Feel Good (and even escapist) doctrine.

I always have to wonder who is trying to tickle my ears.
And in the end – understanding and doing the Word is my way of showing God that I hear and obey.

And so - I endeavor to endureth - even unto death if need be.

Richard

If we did not need to endure then Jesus would have asked the Father to take those that followed him out of the world in order that they would not face temptation but the following show that that was not the case.

Jn 17:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

God bless you,

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 07:07 PM
If you abide in Christ and then turn away from Christ, would V6 not apply? because if you are not in Christ then from what are you being cast away?

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits!

If I am in Christ then I could be cast forth (out, outside of). If I am not in Christ, then how can I be cast forth [out of]

Again I point us to John:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 07:20 PM
<snip>
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
<snip>

'Dunno if the "little antichrists" qualify as saints to begin with.

Once antichrists, always antichrists?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 07:34 PM
I am in Christ, and Christ in me. Therefore I will endure until the end!!Now, what of the man who as a child went to VBS and accepted Yeshua. Loved the Savior, learned scriptures and was trained in the ways of the Lord, and all the way through age 24 was very much into all the things of the Lord. Now, at 25 he says,"No, I'm not in Christ and Christ is not really in me. That was a child's fairy tale and since I'm no longer a child, I no longer buy into that. I've finally grown up completely and seen the truth!" He holds fast to this profession for the next 40 years through his death.

Question 1 - Was he once saved? I believe he was. For those who say he was never saved, how do you explain to a 21 year old who has accepted Yeshua and is obedient to His word that their salvation is secure and that they are not merely fooling themselves into 'thinking' they are saved when they are not?

Question 2 - Is he always saved when he now rejects Chrst and everything he once believed?

I think we each have the choice to remain in Messiah. The man from this example has clearly chosen to leave that place of assurance.

God Bless!

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 07:41 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.



Thanks

Firstfruits

Refers to the remnant of Israel. V. 23 It has to refer to that for it is in the context of this verse 23. Why only the cities of Israel are referenced?
But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

The word saved in 22 means delieverance out of persecution not salvation of the soul.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 07:46 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Mk 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruit!
No is the simple answer to your question.

It does not say "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall recieve eternal salvation"

Saved can mean salvation, but it can mean many other things to:

<A-1,Verb,4982,sozo>
"to save," is used (as with the noun soteria, "salvation") (a) of material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, sickness, etc., e.g.,

Going back to your scripture quotes, they speak of persecution, but Paul clearly tells us, that persecution will not separate us from the Love of Christ.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

* Does Paul say 'we are' or that 'we will be if we endure'?

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If we 'are' more then conquerors 'IN ALL THESE THINGS', then who or what can separate us from the love of God?

Please do not say 'but we can walk away from God'

If that were possible, then we have to cross out 'life', 'things present' or 'things to come', powers, height, depth and creature.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 07:49 PM
'Dunno if the "little antichrists" qualify as saints to begin with.

Once antichrists, always antichrists?

If they\we are saints, then they\we will continue

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?


Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



Thanks

Firstfruits
Saved - Strongs- 4982- safe- to save-, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.) :- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

The context of the passage gives the meaning of the word saved.

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 08:11 PM
Do the following scriptures imply that salvation is an on going process which does not end until when we die or Christ returns?



Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Thanks

Firstfruits
And this one relates to Abraham. Did he obtain the promise BECAUSE he endured or because God made the promise that he would obtain the promise? I think he knew God would deliver and he patiently waited for it to be fulfilled.

What was the promise? It was that he would be the father of a multitude of nations. That he would be fruitful and that kings would come forth from him, that God would be his God for generations to his descendants and that the land of Canaan would be their everlasting possession. Abraham may not have lived to see all of these things come forth but truly they did. He obtained the promise.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 08:13 PM
Now, what of the man who as a child went to VBS and accepted Yeshua. Loved the Savior, learned scriptures and was trained in the ways of the Lord, and all the way through age 24 was very much into all the things of the Lord. Now, at 25 he says,"No, I'm not in Christ and Christ is not really in me. That was a child's fairy tale and since I'm no longer a child, I no longer buy into that. I've finally grown up completely and seen the truth!" He holds fast to this profession for the next 40 years through his death.

Question 1 - Was he once saved? I believe he was. For those who say he was never saved, how do you explain to a 21 year old who has accepted Yeshua and is obedient to His word that their salvation is secure and that they are not merely fooling themselves into 'thinking' they are saved when they are not?

Question 2 - Is he always saved when he now rejects Chrst and everything he once believed?

I think we each have the choice to remain in Messiah. The man from this example has clearly chosen to leave that place of assurance.

God Bless!

Are you asking us to take this story as some sort of evidence, above the word of God?

Scientists have 'so called' convincing proof that the earth is billions of years old.
The word of God, says that the earth was created around 6000 years ago.

"let God be true, but every man a liar"

Do we take our doctrine from what man says, or what God says?

If he 'was' saved, then he 'is' saved

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 08:21 PM
Are you asking us to take this story as some sort of evidence, above the word of God?

Scientists have 'so called' convincing proof that the earth is billions of years old.
The word of God, says that the earth was created around 6000 years ago.

"let God be true, but every man a liar"

Do we take our doctrine from what man says, or what God says?

If he 'was' saved, then he 'is' savedNo, I'm asking you a simple question based on a simple example. The word of God is my final authority in all things, not man, not opinion. You're talking to a young earth creationist so you're barking up the wrong tree with that one! :lol:

So, let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that the man who blatantly rejects Christ and does not abide in him IS saved? Or are you saying that the 20 year old who has accepted Messiah and is obedient to His word may not be saved because later in life he rejects Christ? :hmm:

Partaker of Christ
Sep 30th 2008, 08:53 PM
No, I'm asking you a simple question based on a simple example. The word of God is my final authority in all things, not man, not opinion. You're talking to a young earth creationist so you're barking up the wrong tree with that one! :lol: :hug:

Now come on S2S, make your mind up, are you a tree or a branch? :bounce:

Hmmm, and are you now calling me a barking dog? :D



So, let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that the man who blatantly rejects Christ and does not abide in him IS saved? Or are you saying that the 20 year old who has accepted Messiah and is obedient to His word may not be saved because later in life he rejects Christ? :hmm:

Being that "The word of God is my final authority in all things"

I am saying that (If he 'was' saved, then he 'is' saved)

timmyb
Sep 30th 2008, 09:43 PM
well how do you explain some falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 09:57 PM
I think of it this way:
You're in a boat in deep water.
You fall overboard, but cannot swim. :eek:
Someone throws you a life preserver.

You're saved! :D




For some reason you let go the life preserver before you reach the boat.
Grab life preserver again. Saved
Try to swim on your own. Opps. Can't swim. Sink. Not so saved anymore.
Think real heard about life preserver, but never make up mind. Sink.

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 10:13 PM
well how do you explain some falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:1,2

Hi Timmy,
'Good verse to heed.
False sheppards arise even now - leading astray those sheep without a deep root - who do not know the Word of God.
Hence, we have: universalists like Opr*h, and LDS, New Age people, and so on and so on and so on.

Richard

keck553
Sep 30th 2008, 10:32 PM
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:1,2

Hi Timmy,
'Good verse to heed.
False sheppards arise even now - leading astray those sheep without a deep root - who do not know the Word of God.
Hence, we have: universalists like Opr*h, and LDS, New Age people, and so on and so on and so on.

Richard

I think it's much more pervasive in main stream evangelical eccklisia than the obvious cults.

Richard H
Sep 30th 2008, 10:42 PM
I think it's much more pervasive in main stream evangelical eccklisia than the obvious cults.
Hi Keck,
It is indeed. I wanted to steer clear of the false doctrine within the body - for the purposes of this thread.

After all, I'm a Sabbath keeper without denomination. J
It would make for an interesting and even enlightening thread - but perhaps better put in the controversial forum.

Richard

Studyin'2Show
Sep 30th 2008, 10:50 PM
Being that "The word of God is my final authority in all things"

I am saying that (If he 'was' saved, then he 'is' saved)Is that like Clinton's answer, "That depends on what IS is..."? :lol:

This is why I don't usually get into OSAS/NOSAS threads. :D For now we see through the glass darkly, we know in part. And that's okay with me. I will continue to endure and I will encourage everyone I meet to remain in Him! Beyond that I will know when I need to know. ;) Thanks for the dialog.

God Bless!

keck553
Sep 30th 2008, 11:03 PM
Hi Keck,
It is indeed. I wanted to steer clear of the false doctrine within the body - for the purposes of this thread.

After all, I'm a Sabbath keeper without denomination. J


I understand. Speaking of the OP, I can't stop thinking of what Yeshua said:
Mat 23:13 "Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P'rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people's faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so.
Mat 23:15 "Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P'rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for hell as you are!

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 07:54 AM
I think of it this way:
You're in a boat in deep water.
You fall overboard, but cannot swim. :eek:
Someone throws you a life preserver.

You're saved! :D





For some reason you let go the life preserver before you reach the boat.
Grab life preserver again. Saved
Try to swim on your own. Opps. Can't swim. Sink. Not so saved anymore.
Think real heard about life preserver, but never make up mind. Sink.


I like the analogy!!!!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 11:41 AM
And this one relates to Abraham. Did he obtain the promise BECAUSE he endured or because God made the promise that he would obtain the promise? I think he knew God would deliver and he patiently waited for it to be fulfilled.

What was the promise? It was that he would be the father of a multitude of nations. That he would be fruitful and that kings would come forth from him, that God would be his God for generations to his descendants and that the land of Canaan would be their everlasting possession. Abraham may not have lived to see all of these things come forth but truly they did. He obtained the promise.

Thank you My Heart's Desire,

I agree.

God bless you

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 12:43 PM
I think of it this way:
You're in a boat in deep water.
You fall overboard, but cannot swim. :eek:
Someone throws you a life preserver.

You're saved! :D




For some reason you let go the life preserver before you reach the boat.
Grab life preserver again. Saved
Try to swim on your own. Opps. Can't swim. Sink. Not so saved anymore.
Think real heard about life preserver, but never make up mind. Sink.


Hi Richard...

So I have a few questions in relationship to your analogy....

So salvation is based on

1) not being able to swim
2) falling overboard [somehow.. :)]
3) that the water be deep
4) and someones opinion that you need help
5) and their having a life-preserver and tossing it out to you
6) and your ability to reach it, stay afloat, and still put it on?

Now there is always failure in analogies, but I believe this is the essence as to what your analogy is conveying....

So... if salvation is of the Lord, as Jonah discovered, it is more than self-awareness and self-involvement... for the sea's turbulence, the ship's destruction, and the placement of safety of fish and shore all are at the hand of God....

Placed in perspective, for which I saw that you agreed to within a previous post, that man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast... brings salvation at the hand and control of God. For as God sought Abram, as He made a nation as set apart as Israel, as He blinded Saul to become Paul, and as He calls all of His elect according to His plan, He saves and holds His... having declared it so in making it so...

The question that really is at hand in each of us, based on what we know in humility and submission, is '...is it I?' Am I livings as His child, in that He lives within me, or am I living to a head knowledge of salvation alone, which is dead faith? The question is not about security being true or false, for we know that there are those before us who are with God today.... the question falls always to Am I really saved...? -- for which we should ask the Lord daily to confirm in His word by His Spirit in us that we are.... In that way, OSAS will manifest itself as either true, or sadly false...


For His Glory...

RbG

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 01:43 PM
Hi Richard...

So I have a few questions in relationship to your analogy....

So salvation is based on

1) not being able to swim
2) falling overboard [somehow.. :)]
3) that the water be deep
4) and someones opinion that you need help
5) and their having a life-preserver and tossing it out to you
6) and your ability to reach it, stay afloat, and still put it on?

Now there is always failure in analogies, but I believe this is the essence as to what your analogy is conveying....

So... if salvation is of the Lord, as Jonah discovered, it is more than self-awareness and self-involvement... for the sea's turbulence, the ship's destruction, and the placement of safety of fish and shore all are at the hand of God....

Placed in perspective, for which I saw that you agreed to within a previous post, that man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast... brings salvation at the hand and control of God. For as God sought Abram, as He made a nation as set apart as Israel, as He blinded Saul to become Paul, and as He calls all of His elect according to His plan, He saves and holds His... having declared it so in making it so...

The question that really is at hand in each of us, based on what we know in humility and submission, is '...is it I?' Am I livings as His child, in that He lives within me, or am I living to a head knowledge of salvation alone, which is dead faith? The question is not about security being true or false, for we know that there are those before us who are with God today.... the question falls always to Am I really saved...? -- for which we should ask the Lord daily to confirm in His word by His Spirit in us that we are.... In that way, OSAS will manifest itself as either true, or sadly false...


For His Glory...

RbG

With the understanding that with God we are either righteous or unrighteous no matter who we are? Those that believe are righteous and those that do not believe are unrighteous.

Would the following scripture be appropiate to wether or not we are saved?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 02:20 PM
With the understanding that with God we are either righteous or unrighteous no matter who we are? Those that believe are righteous and those that do not believe are unrighteous.

Would the following scripture be appropiate to wether or not we are saved?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?

Firstfruits

Hi FF...

Our salvation is based on Jesus’ work and not our own, yet by our work we show ourselves faithful to the calling… It’s Christ’s righteousness to God that we claim and cling to that saves, and it’s our maturing as He works in us that bring us not salvation, but closer relationship to our Lord and Savior as we grow in love…

Back within Romans, Paul was teaching the mixed church this exact thing, and used himself in example:

Romans 7:15-20
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


Strive for being obedient to the calling, work out our faith in fear and trembling, knowing that this is because of salvation and is our reasonable service and not effort to preserve salvation’s calling….

It’s Jesus’ righteousness that works in and through us, and our lives must decrease, and He must increase in our walk in knowing and living for Him.


Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

For His glory...

RbG

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 02:39 PM
Hi FF...

Our salvation is based on Jesus’ work and not our own, yet by our work we show ourselves faithful to the calling… It’s Christ’s righteousness to God that we claim and cling to that saves, and it’s our maturing as He works in us that bring us not salvation, but closer relationship to our Lord and Savior as we grow in love…

Back within Romans, Paul was teaching the mixed church this exact thing, and used himself in example:

Romans 7:15-20
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


Strive for being obedient to the calling, work out our faith in fear and trembling, knowing that this is because of salvation and is our reasonable service and not effort to preserve salvation’s calling….

It’s Jesus’ righteousness that works in and through us, and our lives must decrease, and He must increase in our walk in knowing and living for Him.


Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

For His glory...

RbG

Thanks, but how does that answer the question I have asked?

Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 03:38 PM
Thanks, but how does that answer the question I have asked?

Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?

Firstfruits

It was pretty clear to me... Righteousness is from God, through God, etc... so as long as we live in our sinful frame, the answer is we are not righteous -- Christ is righteous - and it's His work in us and through us that shows through... So short answer is yes it is both, but the real question is does 'our righteousness save or keep us', then the answer is no, for the sinfull frame that Paul is describing still does sinfull things, contrary to His "savedness"... only Christ's righteousness is accounted good.


Does this help support the previous response any better?

Studyin'2Show
Oct 1st 2008, 05:01 PM
It was pretty clear to me... Righteousness is from God, through God, etc... so as long as we live in our sinful frame, the answer is we are not righteous -- Christ is righteous - and it's His work in us and through us that shows through... So short answer is yes it is both, but the real question is does 'our righteousness save or keep us', then the answer is no, for the sinfull frame that Paul is describing still does sinfull things, contrary to His "savedness"... only Christ's righteousness is accounted good.

Does this help support the previous response any better?Through faith we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Do you still limit yourself to the unrighteous of the flesh when righteousness is available by faith?

Richard H
Oct 1st 2008, 05:41 PM
Hi Richard...

So I have a few questions in relationship to your analogy....

So salvation is based on

1) not being able to swim
2) falling overboard [somehow.. :)]
3) that the water be deep
4) and someones opinion that you need help
5) and their having a life-preserver and tossing it out to you
6) and your ability to reach it, stay afloat, and still put it on?

Now there is always failure in analogies, but I believe this is the essence as to what your analogy is conveying....

So... if salvation is of the Lord, as Jonah discovered, it is more than self-awareness and self-involvement... for the sea's turbulence, the ship's destruction, and the placement of safety of fish and shore all are at the hand of God....

Placed in perspective, for which I saw that you agreed to within a previous post, that man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast... brings salvation at the hand and control of God. For as God sought Abram, as He made a nation as set apart as Israel, as He blinded Saul to become Paul, and as He calls all of His elect according to His plan, He saves and holds His... having declared it so in making it so...

The question that really is at hand in each of us, based on what we know in humility and submission, is '...is it I?' Am I livings as His child, in that He lives within me, or am I living to a head knowledge of salvation alone, which is dead faith? The question is not about security being true or false, for we know that there are those before us who are with God today.... the question falls always to Am I really saved...? -- for which we should ask the Lord daily to confirm in His word by His Spirit in us that we are.... In that way, OSAS will manifest itself as either true, or sadly false...


For His Glory...

RbG
Hi RbG, :)
There is always failure in an analogy, when one goes beyond its intended purpose.

Salvation is based on… All of it.

1) not being able to swim Thereis none righteous not one, for all have fallen short of the glory of God.
2) falling overboard [somehow.. ] Ummm…. The Fall
3) that the water be deep As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Rom 3:10)
4) and someones opinion that you need help Yes, God knew that I am not righteous enough.
5) and their having a life-preserver and tossing it out to you Ummm…. Jesus offers salvation.
6) and your ability to reach it, stay afloat, and still put it on? We must accept Him. He makes us to stay afloat. He puts His righteousness on us.

I stopped giving Scripture references, because these things are so basic to the Christian faith.

So... if salvation is of the Lord, as Jonah discovered, it is more than self-awareness and self-involvement... for the sea's turbulence, the ship's destruction, and the placement of safety of fish and shore all are at the hand of God....
The story Jonah was not about salvation for Jonah. It was obedience on his part and a type of salvation to Nineveh.

It really took some doing, but I finally figured out! That you may be thinking I was speaking of Jonah.
No. Far from it!
It really threw me, because Jonah has no part in personal salvation through the Christ, but you may’ve made the connection because of the boat or some such. (I suppose)

Placed in perspective, for which I saw that you agreed to within a previous post, that man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast... brings salvation at the hand and control of God. For as God sought Abram, as He made a nation as set apart as Israel, as He blinded Saul to become Paul, and as He calls all of His elect according to His plan, He saves and holds His... having declared it so in making it so...
At my count I have some 360+ posts in any possible number of threads.
There were 124 posts in this thread before my wacky analogy. :rolleyes:

I can not be sure of that which you say I agree to, when you don’t at least point out what I said (ie: quote) or what I was in agreement of.
Furthermore, any agreement on my part as pertains to any particular points in the writings of others, should not be construed to be a total agreement with their total message.
Void where prohibited by law. Taxes, tag and license not included. Some restrictions may apply

That being said: Let me see if I can figure out what you say I said (or agreed to).

Salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God,
Yes. The first point would need clarification as pertains to the purpose of human life and God’s judgment of the angels. But that is for another thread.
Yes, as to the rest of it – through Jesus Christ.
and God alone
No, As pertains to the 1st point. He loves us and desires than none perish – that we may have fellowship with Him.
because of God, least any man should boast... brings salvation at the hand and control of God.
Yes.
<snip to “save” the reader’s eyes>
I’m against head knowledge of salvation alone

“Am I really saved...?” is not a question believers should constantly obsess about.
To do so would be to think that God may be unable or unwilling to fulfill His promise.

However, we must always be asking ourselves: “am I really yielded to God?”
“are there areas in my life I need to repent of? And what steps am I actually taking to turn from the lure of sin?”
“How can I be obedient in my moment-by-moment choices, so that YHWH can use me as his instrument for ministering to the physical, emotional, and spiritual needs of others?
And many other tough questions.

One who is new or one who sees no real growth or maturity might be wise to ask “Am I really saved?”
Head knowledge holds no salvation.
It is faith put into practice (fruit)(of the Spirit and not of ourselves) which is the evidence to: God, ourselves, the world, and the angels, that we are children of the Most High YHWH.

So I see now that you may not really have had a question or a challenge, but wanted clarification on my part, to better understand my position.

Thank you, RbG.

Richard

PS: I suppose the whole OSAS question comes down to the interplay between freewill and predestination.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 06:04 PM
Through faith we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Do you still limit yourself to the unrighteous of the flesh when righteousness is available by faith?

The scripture you use holds the key... Our flesh by nature is unrighteous... until the new body comes... For if our bodies are righteous, then you or I would not still die, or suffer illness, or pain or aging. Two differing things... That's why salvation is of the Lord, in Christ.


For His glory...

RbG

Richard H
Oct 1st 2008, 06:04 PM
Thanks, but how does that answer the question I have asked?

Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?

Firstfruits
Hi FirstFruits,
'Just on this question alone:

We (me) are unrighteous of our own merit.
YHWH sees us as righteous, because Jesus always stands between YHWH and ourselves.
When YHWH looks in our direction, HE sees Jesus.

That's why I love Yeshua so much - that He would do that for me.

John146
Oct 1st 2008, 06:11 PM
Hi again Studyin'2Show!

This is about 'any man who does not abide in Him' Not about the branch in Him that bears no fruit.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

v2 The branch is in Him (taken away)

v6 Any man not in Him (cast forth 'as a branch' and withers, gathered and cast into the fire)How can someone not abide (remain) in Christ if they were never in Him in the first place?

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 06:49 PM
The scripture you use holds the key... Our flesh by nature is unrighteous... until the new body comes... For if our bodies are righteous, then you or I would not still die, or suffer illness, or pain or aging. Two differing things... That's why salvation is of the Lord, in Christ.


For His glory...

RbG

With regards to the following it seem like it depends on what we allow.

Rom 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Who or what has dominion over you?

Firstfruits

Studyin'2Show
Oct 1st 2008, 07:24 PM
The scripture you use holds the key... Our flesh by nature is unrighteous... until the new body comes... For if our bodies are righteous, then you or I would not still die, or suffer illness, or pain or aging. Two differing things... That's why salvation is of the Lord, in Christ.


For His glory...

RbGThis is why scripture tells us to crucify our flesh daily. In our flesh there is wickedness which is why we must be led by the spirit and not the flesh. I don't believe anyone here has implied that our physical bodies are righteous. It is our spirit man that has been reborn, not our physical bodies. And it is that new creation that is, by faith, the righteousness of God in Christ.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 07:40 PM
This is why scripture tells us to crucify our flesh daily. In our flesh there is wickedness which is why we must be led by the spirit and not the flesh. I don't believe anyone here has implied that our physical bodies are righteous. It is our spirit man that has been reborn, not our physical bodies. And it is that new creation that is, by faith, the righteousness of God in Christ.

God Bless!

I agree, but is it not in our flesh that we display the fruits of righteousness?

2 Cor 9:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)

Phil 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 07:44 PM
With regards to the following it seem like it depends on what we allow.

What is the 'it' you ar refering to? Salvation, righteousness, something else?




Rom 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Who or what has dominion over you?

Firstfruits

To your verse in context of our dialog, there are things we have and should be able to control, and there are things that as hard as we try, we have issues, with little victories here, failures there.... This verse speaks to the sin we have known and the effort.... for submitting to God yields righteousness of God... It's effort in walk by love for God to be obedient and not choice in being saved or not... But by success, it is because of the Lord in a man, and by failure, it's the Lord convicting him to see the sin, agree, confess and get up and turn again. This verse speaks to a new life as a christian, not a condition that saves a man to new life.


So to your dominion question, we are of the Lord's, yet we travel through a land of sin.... Tell me that no one sins after they are saved? No Christians still sin, for by nature man is still carnal... but we have an advocate and His Spirit within us to identify with our weakness and hears our confession of need and inadequacies... So we have victory of sin through Jesus Christ, yet we still sin and our bodies still die.... yet we live. Read Romans 7 a bit closer to see the battle Paul is describing.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 07:54 PM
This is why scripture tells us to crucify our flesh daily.

What does this really mean... crucify or flesh? If you take it literally, no christian would be alive...



In our flesh there is wickedness which is why we must be led by the spirit and not the flesh. I don't believe anyone here has implied that our physical bodies are righteous. It is our spirit man that has been reborn, not our physical bodies. And it is that new creation that is, by faith, the righteousness of God in Christ.

God Bless!

We still have a sin hangover, if you will... for our natural self, that of our heart and mind still do carnal things... We still covet, lust, get mad, lie, all sorts of things.... yet we are to work each of these things out to not want to or even do by habit -- and that they are no longer habit or desires -- or has been quoted by Ff, reign within us....

So it's more than our bodies, it's also an incomplete condition of our being, that is why it's Christ's righteousness in us that God holds to us. Ergo... Whatever God has declared as His cannot be lost or removed...

Firstfruits
Oct 1st 2008, 07:55 PM
What is the 'it' you ar refering to? Salvation, righteousness, something else?




To your verse in context of our dialog, there are things we have and should be able to control, and there are things that as hard as we try, we have issues, with little victories here, failures there.... This verse speaks to the sin we have known and the effort.... for submitting to God yields righteousness of God... It's effort in walk by love for God to be obedient and not choice in being saved or not... But by success, it is because of the Lord in a man, and by failure, it's the Lord convicting him to see the sin, agree, confess and get up and turn again. This verse speaks to a new life as a christian, not a condition that saves a man to new life.


So to your dominion question, we are of the Lord's, yet we travel through a land of sin.... Tell me that no one sins after they are saved? No Christians still sin, for by nature man is still carnal... but we have an advocate and His Spirit within us to identify with our weakness and hears our confession of need and inadequacies... So we have victory of sin through Jesus Christ, yet we still sin and our bodies still die.... yet we live. Read Romans 7 a bit closer to see the battle Paul is describing.

I agree that there is a battle between doing that which is right or that which is wrong, yet in christ we have the victory, which shows that we can overcome.

1 Jn 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

"It" is who or what we allow ourselves to be led by.

God bless you

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Oct 1st 2008, 08:28 PM
Can you fall from grace if you never had it?

Firstfruits

How can you fall from something you never deserved anyway. Unmerited!

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 1st 2008, 09:59 PM
I agree that there is a battle between doing that which is right or that which is wrong, yet in christ we have the victory, which shows that we can overcome.

I agree with everything until the underlined part, for which is additive. Jesus overcame the world, so our strength is in Jesus... Can becomes done... and done by Jesus... AMEN!





1 Jn 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

"It" is who or what we allow ourselves to be led by.

God bless you

Firstfruits

I think we are missing something.... The jump in point was towards righteousness... and as Christians we are declared righteous by God through Christ Jesus.... so this being lead part, although not in wrong as it stands, but in context to being righteous is not saving faith, but is a result of saving faith.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:12 AM
How can someone not abide (remain) in Christ if they were never in Him in the first place?

Because 'abide' can mean other then remain.

He is our dwelling place.
So, if any man does not dwell in me.

My heart's Desire
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:41 AM
I think that we are saved by faith in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. When we believe, we died with Him and God sees us as righteous. It is His righteousness God sees rather. It's like when God sees us, He doesn't see us, but He sees the righteousness of Christ.
As far as the result, we have fruit. He says Let your light shine before men. Eph 5:8 says now that we are light in the Lord, and should walk as children of Light. That shows me our position when saved is we are light, but our walk SHOULD be as children of that light. Just the language "should" tells me that even though we are light, we might possibly not walk as such always before men.

Regardless, as Eph. 5:15 tells us we should walk as wise and not as the unwise.

I believe believers have certain things that are absolute and are our position which may not always come out as our walk in daily life.
Can't get my thought but that's why I believe once saved always saved, because once we are saved, our POSITION in Christ never changes. It is He that put us in that position and if we say we become lost again that is like saying Christ can remove us from that position if we fall away to perdition. In life if you hold the position of say VP, indeed you can fall and be put out of that position, but I don't believe God is like men. I believe that position in Christ you are put in is secure forever if you truly believe. He put you, a sinner, in that position when you believed and now sees you as righteous in Christ so how could He remove you from your position when you have on the righteousness of Christ and not your own? You become a member of the body of Christ, you become His bride. That is your position. Would He cast away His bride or pluck out His eye after you become part of His body?
Well, I ramble, and time for bed. Sorry if I'm not getting my point made in an understandable way. :)

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:49 AM
Hi FirstFruits,
'Just on this question alone:

We (me) are unrighteous of our own merit.
YHWH sees us as righteous, because Jesus always stands between YHWH and ourselves.
When YHWH looks in our direction, HE sees Jesus.

That's why I love Yeshua so much - that He would do that for me.

But then that means that we no longer live as we did which was according to the ways of unrighteouness, but to live accoring to the ways of righteousness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:51 AM
How can you fall from something you never deserved anyway. Unmerited!

But can you lose something that you never had?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:55 AM
I agree with everything until the underlined part, for which is additive. Jesus overcame the world, so our strength is in Jesus... Can becomes done... and done by Jesus... AMEN!





I think we are missing something.... The jump in point was towards righteousness... and as Christians we are declared righteous by God through Christ Jesus.... so this being lead part, although not in wrong as it stands, but in context to being righteous is not saving faith, but is a result of saving faith.

Who is it that is the overcomer in the following?

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If we therefore believe then we will overcome.

Firstfruits

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:04 AM
What does this really mean... crucify or flesh? If you take it literally, no christian would be alive... It's really a pretty basic concept of our faith. You don't know what it means to crucify your flesh daily? It definitely doesn't mean to take your own life as you seem to imply. :o Each day we have to make the conscious choice NOT to be led by our flesh (our selfish desires) and to be led by the spirit (the will of God). I don't settle for the 'sin hangover' analogy. Yeshua did not die for me to still be in bondage to sin. We must all aspire to much more.

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:16 AM
Can't get my thought but that's why I believe once saved always saved, because once we are saved, our POSITION in Christ never changes. It is He that put us in that position and if we say we become lost again that is like saying Christ can remove us from that position if we fall away to perdition.I agreed with everything in your post until I came to this point. I don't believe that those who love the Lord have to ever fear 'losing' their salvation. But I do believe that someone who at one time accepted Yeshua can choose to reject Him and walk away. It's not about us jumping through hoops to prove our worthiness. We are not worthy....He is. But unfortunately, there are those who at one time trusted in Messiah that later choose to reject Him. I believe Scripture is clear that those who reject Him are not saved.

Anyway, the whole OSAS/NOSAS debate is not really my 'thing' so I think I'll try to back out now. ;) Hopefully, I've at least made it clear why I believe NOSAS.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:22 AM
It's really a pretty basic concept of our faith. You don't know what it means to crucify your flesh daily? It definitely doesn't mean to take your own life as you seem to imply. :o Each day we have to make the conscious choice NOT to be led by our flesh (our selfish desires) and to be led by the spirit (the will of God). I don't settle for the 'sin hangover' analogy. Yeshua did not die for me to still be in bondage to sin. We must all aspire to much more.

God Bless!

The following seems to be a concept not easily accepted.

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

God bless you

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:16 AM
Who is it that is the overcomer in the following?

1 Jn 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If we therefore believe then we will overcome.

Firstfruits



We then agee... my objection was with with your usage of the condition 'can'. And now would say it's more emphatic than 'if' and 'will overcome'... it be a done deal!

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:40 AM
We then agee... my objection was with with your usage of the condition 'can'. And now would say it's more emphatic than 'if' and 'will overcome'... it be a done deal!

Thanks RBG,

God bless you

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:50 AM
It's really a pretty basic concept of our faith. You don't know what it means to crucify your flesh daily? It definitely doesn't mean to take your own life as you seem to imply. :o Each day we have to make the conscious choice NOT to be led by our flesh (our selfish desires) and to be led by the spirit (the will of God). I don't settle for the 'sin hangover' analogy. Yeshua did not die for me to still be in bondage to sin. We must all aspire to much more.

God Bless!


Morning S2S

So then, you advocate that each day you choose to live in sinless perfection? If so, how successful are you? Seriously? 100%? If anything less then, what does it mean?

S2S... how can you measure if by choice, you covered each and every sin? For I agree that we have choices to many items that come before us, but what about those slips, or those items that went unnoticed? Man still is weak, still suffers in not having perfect wisdom in knowing not to sin... Thus it's a daily journey, the difference is that with Christ in us, we have a better change to sin less and repent more.

Now you say bondage.... I never stated bondage.... just to be clear... what I am stating is that even though we are Christians, we still struggle and wrestle with sin in our lives... And to the analogy to sin hangover, maybe if I explained it it may make better sense..... If one drinks and becomes drunk at night, he wakes up the next morning not to the drink but the effects of the drink of the night before... for which being drunk still lingers, maybe not to the strength from the night, but as an effect from the night... To recover from the hangover is to abstain from going into that condition again... and as time moves forward, the hangover dissipates. Hope this explanation provides value to my usage of sin hangover.


The difference is that we now have victory in Christ over sin applied to us, therefore it's Christ's righteousness in perfection and not ours in imperfection... so by application there will be some sins that we can see complete victory in, to the glory of God... yet there will be other sins that will be a daily struggle, keeping us humble.... it's to that daily struggle that applies the crucifying the flesh metaphor...

As His child, I hate the sin that I do, and I long not to do the sin I see in me, and submit to Him in faith for obedience to Him, yet [echoing as Paul also confesses], why do I still do the things I do not want to do and to the things that I know to do, I do not do them? Because I still am weak in a sin nature frame in this earthly vessel, having been born anew in spirit by Christ within me, yet incomplete in the new nature until this body dies and made anew.... Now I am no longer sin's slave, but I am still tied to it's remnants.... But by God's grace, he transforms me daily closer to the image of His Son, til the day we are face-to-face, I in perfection to glory.


For His Glory...

RbG

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 12:29 PM
But then that means that we no longer live as we did which was according to the ways of unrighteouness, but to live accoring to the ways of righteousness.

Firstfruits
I’d add the words “are to” in there, First Fruits.
(Perhaps a speed tying omission)

But then that means that we are to no longer live as we did which was according to the ways of unrighteouness, but to live accoring to the ways of righteousness.

So to answer your question:
Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?


My answer would be: yes.

Unrighteous in our own eyes and by our own merit.
Righteous in God’s eyes through the God’s mercy – the grace of/by/through Jesus Christ.
Our realizing what that all means - makes us want to conform to Christ.


Richard

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:01 PM
I’d add the words “are to” in there, First Fruits.
(Perhaps a speed tying omission)

But then that means that we are to no longer live as we did which was according to the ways of unrighteouness, but to live accoring to the ways of righteousness.

So to answer your question:
Can we be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time?



My answer would be: yes.

Unrighteous in our own eyes and by our own merit.
Righteous in God’s eyes through the God’s mercy – the grace of/by/through Jesus Christ.
Our realizing what that all means - makes us want to conform to Christ.


Richard

Thanks Richard,

Because it is concluded that we are all under sin, Rom 11:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

As you say we should want to conform to Christ and no longer live as we did. We are new creatures in Christ, but we still have the same bodies, but in Christ we put off the old man.

God bless you

Firstfruits

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:07 PM
So then, you advocate that each day you choose to live in sinless perfection? If so, how successful are you? Seriously? 100%? If anything less then, what does it mean?

S2S... how can you measure if by choice, you covered each and every sin? For I agree that we have choices to many items that come before us, but what about those slips, or those items that went unnoticed? Man still is weak, still suffers in not having perfect wisdom in knowing not to sin... Thus it's a daily journey, the difference is that with Christ in us, we have a better change to sin less and repent more.How successful? What percentage? Does that matter? We're not graded by percentage points. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. (Prov. 23:6) Why would you want to continue thinking of yourself as the old man? :hmm:

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Who says I have to be 100%? Paul says that we are to press on toward that perfection. He also says that we are to forget those things that are behind. I will no longer think of myself as the old man.

God Bless!

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:15 PM
How successful? What percentage? Does that matter? We're not graded by percentage points.
<snip>
If we were, Jesus would've "blown" the bell curve for the rest of us. :rolleyes:

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:18 PM
How successful? What percentage? Does that matter? We're not graded by percentage points. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. (Prov. 23:6) Why would you want to continue thinking of yourself as the old man? :hmm:

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Who says I have to be 100%? Paul says that we are to press on toward that perfection. He also says that we are to forget those things that are behind. I will no longer think of myself as the old man.

God Bless!

Just to add to what you have said.

Eph 4:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Why do we set ourslves up to fall? Unless we do fall we should not expect to or look for it to happen.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 2nd 2008, 04:41 PM
How successful? What percentage? Does that matter? We're not graded by percentage points. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. (Prov. 23:6) Why would you want to continue thinking of yourself as the old man? :hmm:

This is not what I stated nor asked at all... Let me ask it in simple fashion... do you sin?




Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Who says I have to be 100%? Paul says that we are to press on toward that perfection. He also says that we are to forget those things that are behind. I will no longer think of myself as the old man.

God Bless!

That's my point exactly.... Then to the point of the post in personalization... will you lose your salvation one day?

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:24 PM
This is not what I stated nor asked at all... Let me ask it in simple fashion... do you sin?

That's my point exactly.... Then to the point of the post in personalization... will you lose your salvation one day?I have not said that you or I could 'lose' salvation as if it were like a set of car keys. What I could do is choose to cast it away, reject it, or despise it as Esau did his birthright.

God Bless!

John146
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:46 PM
Because 'abide' can mean other then remain.

He is our dwelling place.
So, if any man does not dwell in me.Yes, it can mean something else, but I'm not so sure it does in this case.

John 15
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Here, we see the words continue and abide as meaning the same thing. Seems to me that to continue and abide in His love is to remain in His love.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:53 PM
I have not said that you or I could 'lose' salvation as if it were like a set of car keys. What I could do is choose to cast it away, reject it, or despise it as Esau did his birthright.

God Bless!

Two points: 1st is in regard to birthright. Does birth right = salvation...?

2nd point... Do you think there will there be a point in time that you will lose your salvation? For if salvation is determined by self, as you are trying to link to Esau and his birthright... do you come to salvation believing that you will never cast it away, reject it or despise it, or is there an open that you will?

For if you say that you never will, then by that - you confess that OSAS holds true for you... But if you say that you could lose it at some point, for you don't know what tomorrow brings, then what does that say about the foundation of faith?


See, the position of salvation is that it's all God centered, and works and obedience flow as outcomes of God working within His child... But those works are not works of salvation, but works from salvation....


Esau's birthright is not his salvation, just a position... yet by Jewish practice, the eldest son held the place of honor... So before Esau was even born, did not God choose to have the elder serve the younger? And did not Paul use this to show that salvation is at the hand of God?

This is why salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.


For His glory...

RbG

Partaker of Christ
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:55 PM
I agreed with everything in your post until I came to this point. I don't believe that those who love the Lord have to ever fear 'losing' their salvation. But I do believe that someone who at one time accepted Yeshua can choose to reject Him and walk away. It's not about us jumping through hoops to prove our worthiness. We are not worthy....He is. But unfortunately, there are those who at one time trusted in Messiah that later choose to reject Him. I believe Scripture is clear that those who reject Him are not saved.

Anyway, the whole OSAS/NOSAS debate is not really my 'thing' so I think I'll try to back out now. ;) Hopefully, I've at least made it clear why I believe NOSAS.

God Bless!

Hi Studyin'2Show!

"But I do believe that someone who at one time accepted Yeshua can choose to reject Him and walk away"

Can a slave who has been bought off the old master, choose to walk away from the new Master?

There came a day in our lives that was called 'TODAY' (if you hear His voice). On that day, we were given a choice as to whom we would serve

We are 'NOT OUR OWN', we have been 'BOUGHT' with a price.

The only way we can be free from our new Master, is if we can afford the price He paid for us.

Also I ask this:
Did we have the free will choice to walk away [be separated] from our old master (apart from the gift of God)?

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:43 PM
Two points: 1st is in regard to birthright. Does birth right = salvation...?

2nd point... Do you think there will there be a point in time that you will lose your salvation? For if salvation is determined by self, as you are trying to link to Esau and his birthright... do you come to salvation believing that you will never cast it away, reject it or despise it, or is there an open that you will?

For if you say that you never will, then by that - you confess that OSAS holds true for you... But if you say that you could lose it at some point, for you don't know what tomorrow brings, then what does that say about the foundation of faith?


See, the position of salvation is that it's all God centered, and works and obedience flow as outcomes of God working within His child... But those works are not works of salvation, but works from salvation....


Esau's birthright is not his salvation, just a position... yet by Jewish practice, the eldest son held the place of honor... So before Esau was even born, did not God choose to have the elder serve the younger? And did not Paul use this to show that salvation is at the hand of God?

This is why salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.


For His glory...

RbGWhat? :confused Who said that salvation is a birthright? You really do need to read the whole post. So, in your view those who accept Messiah and then later reject Him, even despise Him are still abiding in Him? Whatever. If that's how you interpret it, so be it. :dunno:

Studyin'2Show
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:48 PM
Hi Studyin'2Show!

"But I do believe that someone who at one time accepted Yeshua can choose to reject Him and walk away"

Can a slave who has been bought off the old master, choose to walk away from the new Master?

There came a day in our lives that was called 'TODAY' (if you hear His voice). On that day, we were given a choice as to whom we would serve

We are 'NOT OUR OWN', we have been 'BOUGHT' with a price.

The only way we can be free from our new Master, is if we can afford the price He paid for us.

Also I ask this:
Did we have the free will choice to walk away [be separated] from our old master (apart from the gift of God)?What? :confused So we lose our free will because we accept Messiah? So Yeshua on the cross was just brokering a deal? Buying slaves for His Father? :o Once again, whatever. Silly me for believing Him when He said He no longer calls us servants but friends. :rolleyes: Peace out!

Partaker of Christ
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:53 PM
Yes, it can mean something else, but I'm not so sure it does in this case.

John 15
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Here, we see the words continue and abide as meaning the same thing. Seems to me that to continue and abide in His love is to remain in His love.

Hi John146!

Other translations have the word 'Abide' [meno]

Could mean:
'be ye in my love'
'dwell ye in my love'
'live ye in my love'

Joh 15:9
(ALT) "Just as the Father loved Me, _I_ also loved you*; abide in My love.

(ASV) Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.

(Darby) As the Father has loved me, I also have loved you: abide in my love.

(EMTV) "Just as the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

(ESV) As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.

(KJV) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

(LITV) As the Father loved Me, I also loved you; continue in My love.

(NAS77) "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

(NASB) "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

(RV) Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.

If the word 'meno' here is to mean 'to continue throughout' then [diameno] should have been used.

If the word 'meno' here is to mean 'to remain in' then [emmeno] should have been used.

If the word 'meno' here is to mean 'to continue right through, or to finish fully' then [diateleo] should have been used.

The word meno can mean remain, but the word remain does not have to mean 'throughout' or 'endure to the end'

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain [meno] upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:13 PM
What? :confused So we lose our free will because we accept Messiah? So Yeshua on the cross was just brokering a deal? Buy slaves for His Father? :o Once again, whatever. Silly me for believing Him when He said He no longer calls us servants but friends. :rolleyes: Peace out!

Do you mean that you have not yet surrendered your will to Him?

You want Him as your Friend, but not your Master?
You want Him as your Saviour, but not your Lord?
You want Him as your High Priest, but not your King?

How many do you think will have this 'so called' free will, not to bend the knee, and confess that He is Lord?

Those who will not do it now WILL do it one day.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:52 AM
What? :confused Who said that salvation is a birthright?

S2S, with all due respect, you did....


I have not said that you or I could 'lose' salvation as if it were like a set of car keys. What I could do is choose to cast it away, reject it, or despise it as Esau did his birthright.

God Bless!

So by using Esau in casting away his birthright, you tied the two together... I'm left to reply to what was written... if you meant something else, I couldn't see it...sorry.




You really do need to read the whole post. So, in your view those who accept Messiah and then later reject Him, even despise Him are still abiding in Him?

Accepting Christ doesn't necessarily mean that's the earmark in being saved.... Believing in Christ does give a more biblical response.... A new birth brings a new heart, but the action of salvation starts and finishes with God...



Whatever. If that's how you interpret it, so be it. :dunno:


S2S, please be patient with me, for these one-way conversations with hour time gaps in between miss a lot of banter, facial expressions and chances for commonality if spoken, for dialog works better in learning that monologue typing. OK?


And back to my question, do you see yourself ever falling away, turning away, or not believing the Lord as your Savior?

This is a pivotal point in seeing the security of salvation's call....

Thanks S2S for your consideration and comments... I appreciate you taking the time and your insights

Studyin'2Show
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:20 AM
With all due respect to RbG and PoC, this is EXACTLY why I normally do not get into OSAS/NOSAS discussions. No, I did not say that salvation is a birthright but merely used Esau's 'attitude' of despising to explain how one could 'despise' their salvation. You don't think it's possible, I do.

When did I say I have not submitted my will to Messiah? :confused Never did. But this has passed beyond the desire to edify and moved to a battle to 'one up' another believer. Thus I will withdraw. I have made my interpretation clear, and I will continue to encourage any believer to hold fast to what they have believed and to endure to the end! :)

God Bless! :wave:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:48 AM
With all due respect to RbG and PoC, this is EXACTLY why I normally do not get into OSAS/NOSAS discussions. No, I did not say that salvation is a birthright but merely used Esau's 'attitude' of despising to explain how one could 'despise' their salvation. You don't think it's possible, I do.

When did I say I have not submitted my will to Messiah? :confused Never did. But this has passed beyond the desire to edify and moved to a battle to 'one up' another believer. Thus I will withdraw. I have made my interpretation clear, and I will continue to encourage any believer to hold fast to what they have believed and to endure to the end! :)

God Bless! :wave:

Sorry that you feel this way, but you have joined this OSAS thread as I - [although titled in the negative] to contribute - so assumed that you were wanting active replies... but I understand you must do what you need to do....

The point to OSAS lies with where salvation sits... does it sit in the Hand of God or the hand of man? If it's man's choice to stay or leave, then is his faith within himself in his own abilities to stay and remain true ever strong enough? The question asked - not only to you but to each of us is what holds us in faith? Our efforts or God's efforts? I stand beside you in saying that we are accountable, no doubt... but God also works in and through us and it's His work in declaring and thus bestowing on those He has called.

And to the 'enduring to the end' comments - look to see that they all point to the later times when His grace is being retracted from the world and Sat3n and the last days increase - less God cut this time short... those who persevere through this time of persecution and suffering will prove their faith in the end... Just food for thought and consideration.


It was great discussing this with you... Tx


For His glory...

RbG...

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:07 AM
When we have accepted Jesus as our saviour and live according to his will, do we remain righteous even if we sin? Or do we become unrighteous when we sin?

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:16 AM
When we have accepted Jesus as our saviour and live according to his will, do we remain righteous even if we sin? Or do we become unrighteous when we sin?
<snip>
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:9

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:32 AM
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:9

Does that mean that after we have accepted Jesus and we sin are we then unrighteous until we confess our sin and therefore cleansed of our unrighteousness?

Firstfruits

The Preacher
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:56 AM
I agree with Richard. Unless we abide in the vine we cannot bear any fruit at all no matter how good our deeds are. I have an interesting thought about that verse.
We seek God to know him but Jesus didn't rebuke the false disciples about their lack of knowledge concerning HIM. He said depart from me I never knew YOU! This word for "know" is the exact same greek word we find in the Septuagint when it says "Adam KNEW his wife Eve and she brought forth a child" Could it be that Jesus was rebuking them for their lack of intimacy with him? Perhaps for their failure to truly receive him in their deepest inner parts where he would have birthed something divine in them?
food for thought:hmm:

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:03 AM
Does that mean that after we have accepted Jesus and we sin are we then unrighteous until we confess our sin and therefore cleansed of our unrighteousness?

Firstfruits
Good "question".
Part of accepting Jesus involves repentance and asking for forgiveness.
Being human, we will never reach perfection in being sinless. As we become aware of sin - as we allow the Holy Spirit to convict us of our new sins, we should ask for forgiveness from God and from those we may have hurt. Sometimes that can take time, but God judges the heart.

If one were to conclude that once accepting Christ they are no longer sinful, one would be mistaken.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:8

So I guess the answer would be: yes.

MBA: Confess any sins that you (me) are aware of - through one's own conscience or through the Holy Spirit, repent, and then press on toward the future, knowing that God's grace and mercy is always available.

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:14 AM
I agree with Richard. Unless we abide in the vine we cannot bear any fruit at all no matter how good our deeds are. I have an interesting thought about that verse.
We seek God to know him but Jesus didn't rebuke the false disciples about their lack of knowledge concerning HIM. He said depart from me I never knew YOU! This word for "know" is the exact same greek word we find in the Septuagint when it says "Adam KNEW his wife Eve and she brought forth a child" Could it be that Jesus was rebuking them for their lack of intimacy with him? Perhaps for their failure to truly receive him in their deepest inner parts where he would have birthed something divine in them?
food for thought:hmm:
:)
I once recently heard someone (I forget who) say, "the question isn't: 'if we know Jesus'; the question is: 'does Jesus know us?'"

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:48 AM
Good "question".
Part of accepting Jesus involves repentance and asking for forgiveness.
Being human, we will never reach perfection in being sinless. As we become aware of sin - as we allow the Holy Spirit to convict us of our new sins, we should ask for forgiveness from God and from those we may have hurt. Sometimes that can take time, but God judges the heart.

If one were to conclude that once accepting Christ they are no longer sinful, one would be mistaken.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:8

So I guess the answer would be: yes.

MBA: Confess any sins that you (me) are aware of - through one's own conscience or through the Holy Spirit, repent, and then press on toward the future, knowing that God's grace and mercy is always available.

With regards to the OP, if it was OSAS then the whole world could be saved if there was no fear of losing their salvation because of sins that they may commit. No one would be lost.

Firstfruits

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:09 PM
With regards to the OP, if it was OSAS then the whole world could be saved if there was no fear of losing their salvation because of sins that they may commit. No one would be lost.

Firstfruits
A wide gate, indeed. :rolleyes:

The Preacher
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:18 PM
The issue I have with OSAW is that it can deceive people into thinking that they can do whatever they want just because they have said some token sinners prayer. It's common place for today's evangelicals to give assurance to people who have shown no fruit of repentance whatsoever. This development is a somewhat recent one . If you ever read Calvin's position on the fruits of salvation you would find that many of us don't even measure up to the originator of this doctrine expectations! We have been told very clearly that :

"Gal 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God"

"Eph 5:5-7

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

"1 Cor 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

These scriptures clearly state " DO NOT BE DECEIVED"
It shows that there is a possibility of being deceived into thinking that you are ok if you are continuing to walk in these kinds of sins.

Jude tells us:

"Jude 12

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE dead, plucked up by the roots"

How can you be twice dead unless you have entered into the Hebrews 6 situation and been one born again but have fallen away?


Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:02 PM
The issue I have with OSAW is that it can deceive people into thinking that they can do whatever they want just because they have said some token sinners prayer. It's common place for today's evangelicals to give assurance to people who have shown no fruit of repentance whatsoever. This development is a somewhat recent one . If you ever read Calvin's position on the fruits of salvation you would find that many of us don't even measure up to the originator of this doctrine expectations! We have been told very clearly that :

"Gal 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God"

"Eph 5:5-7

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

"1 Cor 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

These scriptures clearly state " DO NOT BE DECEIVED"
It shows that there is a possibility of being deceived into thinking that you are ok if you are continuing to walk in these kinds of sins.

Jude tells us:

"Jude 12

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE dead, plucked up by the roots"

How can you be twice dead unless you have entered into the Hebrews 6 situation and been one born again but have fallen away?


Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The way is narrow indeed... For scripture is replete of confirmation of God's security in His call - along with His open warning to 'watch, work, do'... The gospel message is a wide open call; salvation's reply is to only the all who believe.... yet there are still degrees as to 'salvation' conditions of belief...

As the parable of soils show, along with Jewish traditional beliefs, that there can be a head knowledge, and even a birthright of God in defense in salvation's call... yet without a circumcised heart by and for God, there will be a class of 'believers' who are deceiving themselves.

OSAS is never a 'get out of hell free card' as most folks stereotype it. True OSAS doctrine confesses that it is not self who has saved them, but the Lord... and that because of the humility and gratefulness this brings, brings acts of obedience in response to the gospel call, willingly in love, and not so much in fear of retribution.... Going out and willfully sinning is not a tenet to OSAS, for as a new creation in Christ, we now hate the sin we once loved as carnal.... No man can ever measure up by works to satisfy God, whether one sees OSAS or NOSAS as being true or not, for if so, then Christ didn't need to come... For salvation is by grace through faith, and not any work of man, least anyone should boast...


For His glory...

RbG

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:25 PM
The way is narrow indeed... For scripture is replete of confirmation of God's security in His call - along with His open warning to 'watch, work, do'... The gospel message is a wide open call; salvation's reply is to only the all who believe.... yet there are still degrees as to 'salvation' conditions of belief...

As the parable of soils show, along with Jewish traditional beliefs, that there can be a head knowledge, and even a birthright of God in defense in salvation's call... yet without a circumcised heart by and for God, there will be a class of 'believers' who are deceiving themselves.

OSAS is never a 'get out of hell free card' as most folks stereotype it. True OSAS doctrine confesses that it is not self who has saved them, but the Lord... and that because of the humility and gratefulness this brings, brings acts of obedience in response to the gospel call, willingly in love, and not so much in fear of retribution.... Going out and willfully sinning is not a tenet to OSAS, for as a new creation in Christ, we now hate the sin we once loved as carnal.... No man can ever measure up by works to satisfy God, whether one sees OSAS or NOSAS as being true or not, for if so, then Christ didn't need to come... For salvation is by grace through faith, and not any work of man, least anyone should boast...


For His glory...

RbG

So would you agree that OSAS applies only if you always abide in Christ?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:12 PM
So would you agree that OSAS applies only if you always abide in Christ?

Firstfruits

Nope... note what I'm saying at all....

Here is what I'm saying... Any man's salvation comes because of the choice of God.... that it's for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

The question we should ask is in like fashion as the disciples... 'is it I?'


Abiding in Christ comes with salvation, but is not a cause towards salvation.... Peter turned, Jesus pursued.... Judas turned, Jesus let him go to do what he was destined to do.... So any activity of good works ie abiding, of loving, of obeying is because of Christ living inside, not because we do works of goodness that brings us to be saved.

A glass containing water, holds the water within the glass. Conversely, if the water holds the glass, the water surrounding the glass loses the glass and the glass then - holds nothing of purpose.

So too with salvation... If God holds our salvation, we are contained and thus kept by God. But if we hold our own salvation, we go in and out as the tide and hold nothing firmly nor are kept in containment.


For His glory...

RbG

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:24 PM
Nope... note what I'm saying at all....

Here is what I'm saying... Any man's salvation comes because of the choice of God.... that it's for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

The question we should ask is in like fashion as the disciples... 'is it I?'


Abiding in Christ comes with salvation, but is not a cause towards salvation.... Peter turned, Jesus pursued.... Judas turned, Jesus let him go to do what he was destined to do.... So any activity of good works ie abiding, of loving, of obeying is because of Christ living inside, not because we do works of goodness that brings us to be saved.

A glass containing water, holds the water within the glass. Conversely, if the water holds the glass, the water surrounding the glass loses the glass and the glass then - holds nothing of purpose.

So too with salvation... If God holds our salvation, we are contained and thus kept by God. But if we hold our own salvation, we go in and out as the tide and hold nothing firmly nor are kept in containment.


For His glory...

RbG

According to the following it is by believing that we are saved.

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is by not believing that we are not saved.

Firstfruits

Studyin'2Show
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:49 PM
Nope... note what I'm saying at all....

Here is what I'm saying... Any man's salvation comes because of the choice of God.... that it's for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.Oh, I get it! You're a Calvinist. Now, only OSAS would make sense for a Calvinist. At least now I understand your position although I still don't agree. :D Boy, I was having a difficult time understanding. Thanks for the clarification. You guys have fun. I'm even less interested in the Calvinist/Arminian debate than the OSAS/NOSAS. :lol:

God Bless!

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:58 PM
<snip>
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This verse used to scare me when it came to my seemingly constant back-sliding. Do you have any insight?

Richard

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:22 PM
Oh, I get it! You're a Calvinist. Now, only OSAS would make sense for a Calvinist. At least now I understand your position although I still don't agree. :D Boy, I was having a difficult time understanding. Thanks for the clarification. You guys have fun. I'm even less interested in the Calvinist/Arminian debate than the OSAS/NOSAS. :lol:

God Bless!

No... I'm a Christian, a sinner saved by grace....

Just curious as to why the labels and the negativity....? I could equally have stated that you are a woman, or a republican or liberal or you were wearer of purple shoes - or any other label - fair or not - good or bad - to taint our discussion with a stereotype and predisposition... but does that change our relationship to each other or the truth?

'Ah you are one of those... unclear unclean....' Please I love the Lord with all my heart just as I suppose you do... but your post sets me as being evil, and I think I have been fair and cordial, have I not?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:29 PM
This verse used to scare me when it came to my seemingly constant back-sliding. Do you have any insight?

Richard

I side with AW Pink's take and say that there is a group of folks [certain group of Hebrews as the immediate focus] who are intellectual towards the gospel, to a point of understanding it, live for a moment in it ... but never have been changed by it. For the author of Hebrews segments his writings back to his audience beginning in Verse 9 with: But beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you....

So this doesn't address back-sliding per se as it does to the authenticity of being saved both by a changed heart with a renewed mind.

Studyin'2Show
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:46 PM
No... I'm a Christian, a sinner saved by grace....

Just curious as to why the labels and the negativity....? I could equally have stated that you are a woman, or a republican or liberal or you were wearer of purple shoes - or any other label - fair or not - good or bad - to taint our discussion with a stereotype and predisposition... but does that change our relationship to each other or the truth?

'Ah you are one of those... unclear unclean....' Please I love the Lord with all my heart just as I suppose you do... but your post sets me as being evil, and I think I have been fair and cordial, have I not?I apologize if the revelation offended you as that was not my intent. I'll rephrase, your beliefs follow the Calvinistic viewpoint. ;) Anyway, at least now I do understand your position which is what I was not grasping before.

This is one of thse 'if a tree falls in the woods' issues for me, so I just don't find this debate to be edifying but I know that many people do. I respect that but I'd rather not participate in it. It has been interesting but I really don't have much to add beyond what I've already posted. :dunno:

God Bless!

Partaker of Christ
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:59 PM
The issue I have with OSAW is that it can deceive people into thinking that they can do whatever they want just because they have said some token sinners prayer.

If (as many do believe) OSAS is a truth, then why would you have an issue with the truth?

How people respond to a truth, is no reason to change it.

OSAS is not about a token sinners prayer, or any other deeds.

Do you somehow think that NOSAS has no, or perhaps less dangers?

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1810844#post1810844)
Nope... note what I'm saying at all....

Here is what I'm saying... Any man's salvation comes because of the choice of God.... that it's for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

For His glory...

RbG

According to the following it is by believing that we are saved.

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is by not believing that we are not saved.

Mans salvation comes because we believe.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1810844#post1810844)
Nope... note what I'm saying at all....

Here is what I'm saying... Any man's salvation comes because of the choice of God.... that it's for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

For His glory...

RbG

According to the following it is by believing that we are saved.

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is by not believing that we are not saved.

Mans salvation comes because we believe.

Firstfruits


The 'tactics' God uses is the preaching of the word, witnessing and testimonies of others.... For God open hearts and shuts hearts in understanding.... and use men to reach men....

So anyone who understands and believes, consider your heart opened to the wisdom of salvation's call...

My heart's Desire
Oct 4th 2008, 01:39 AM
Do you somehow think that NOSAS has no, or perhaps less dangers?

Good point. Have we discussed possible danger with NOSAS?

Such as....hummm No security, no assurance, looking to oneself instead of Christ...wondering if you'll make it to the end....work based or fruit based (which indeed a Christian will have fruit) which is of the heart, which does lead to outward acts. Never knowing if you are saved in the end especially if there remains one last sin not repented of....... the biggy......FEAR of GOD. If one has all these things above then isn't there a certain fear (being scared, anixousness) of the judgment of God because after all you might not end up being good enough, done enough,died enough, endured long or hard enough etc etc.
And how can one love someone they don't really trust?
I realize having said all that someone will say "I don't really understand the NOSAS view" and you'd be right!

Dani H
Oct 4th 2008, 02:33 AM
My personal issue has always been how to reconcile these Scriptures:

Hebrews 10:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=39&version=50&context=verse)
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

With

John 10:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=29&version=50&context=verse)
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

My only answer to that is, that it is up to the individual. I don't think anybody can snatch us, but I do think we can jump out. If we have to choose to believe into Jesus and accept His sacrifice on our behalf for our sin after the truth of the Gospel is revealed to us, and we confess Jesus as our Lord and are born again, then I would think that we would continue to choose, every day, about what do to with our original choice and where to go from there. At least the last 16 years of my life have proven that to be so. It's not a matter of losing salvation with one act of sin, because the God I know isn't petty, and He has provided a secure foundation for us with His Son, Jesus Christ. Nobody is going to hold it against a babe in Christ when they don't understand something and "blow it." Would you beat an infant or small child for not doing something right because they lack understanding? Of course not. No loving parent would. And God is a better parent than we can all hope to be.

But, who would want to remain a baby anyway? Who would want to continue forever to suckle down milk when there is meat to be had? Who would want to sit there forever waffling, forever unsure about their salvation and relationship to God, and forever in fear of losing it? That kind of fear and insecurity is not of God, and so on we must go, to perfect love that casts out fear. We are admonished to make our calling and election sure, and Paul said there comes a time to put away childish things, and grow up.

After our spirits are born again and have been made alive unto God, and our sins have been removed, we must then focus on the salvation of our souls. We have to examine ourselves whether or not we are in the faith, and where we have to surrender and let our flesh get on the cross and die, and push forward and continue on to believe unto the salvation of our souls, and quit living by how we feel, and choose every day if we want to be stuck somewhere, or if we want to mature, and continue on and let God finish what He started in us. If we do that, and continue to obey Jesus, then drawing back to perdition ought to be a non-issue. That's what the practical side of me thinks. And it tends to win out on these matters. :)

Richard H
Oct 4th 2008, 03:37 AM
<snip>
If we do that, and continue to obey Jesus, then drawing back to perdition ought to be a non-issue. That's what the practical side of me thinks. And it tends to win out on these matters. :)

Incredible post.
Wow! :thumbsup:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 4th 2008, 04:00 AM
FWIW - It is my contention that all believers really do believe that OSAS as being true doctrine – if only as it relates to your own personal salvation.

Here’s my logic why I say it is so before anyone objects… For the day that you came to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, was this not a life-changing event in your life? I think everyone would answer yes. So if you confessed and repented from your sins, and believed in your heart -- that Jesus is God… would you also say that you became His child? Why I think all would answer yes again. So as His newly found child, did you think that this was a false understanding up front on your part, or that it would only last until something else came along…? Let me continue to answer for the group and say, no, this was never on your mind then…right? It was a wonderful moment…

So at the day you knew that Jesus as God, that you were a sinner and have need for a Savior, did your confession of faith ping your heart that this would not last? And to say on everyone’s behalf again, no it wasn’t even on your mind… whether in emotion or in wisdom, the moment brought assurance and relief, right?

Now from this moment on, we have been changed, right? [Now there is an exception here that is equally important to say about false belief, but I will ignore this as an exception to only focus on the positive for this post…] - I wouldn’t think that you would believe that you will someday fall away from Him, right?

I mean, if you know Christ as your Savior in that day, are you purposing in your mind not be a Christian sometime in the future? Do folks enter faith with doubt that faith in Him is not real or enduring or strong enough? I would think not… I’d think it would be your and everyone’s intent and desire to live for Christ all the days of your life, right? For are the terms you came to know Christ and salvation God’s or yours? If you continue to agree the terms are God’s… then wouldn’t you have hope that the day you die is as the same as the day of your spiritual birth -- that you are saved, secured, and endure to the conditions that God has given and thus fit the OSAS model?

See we are counting on God to hold us to Him, yes? To lead us not into temptations, to deliver us away from evil… so wouldn’t you think that your faith is securely in His hands?

Hypothetically speaking - but if you say you don’t know if you will fall away or not, then my comment is to check your foundation of faith…. What is your faith then built upon?

See I see the [N]OSAS argument as unnecessary between brothers and sisters as a point of battle in arguing saved or not, but absolutely necessary in the point of studying all of scripture and pointing to the sovereignty of God in His will being done. If folks were to label me anything, being a sinner saved by grace is good, being redeemed by his grace is better, and being a God sovereignist may best describe my doctrine, for I see scripture quite clear in His active role and plan at work, for His glory. My closing point is man has liberties to a point and plans to a point, but all things are under the counsel of His will… and God is big enough to let us have willing choices and work in us and through, yet we feel it’s our thoughts and our will.

Again, I’ve enjoyed our chats and hope that we all grow in the Lord


For His glory...

RbG

Richard H
Oct 4th 2008, 04:46 AM
<snip>
I wouldn’t think that you would believe that you will someday fall away from Him, right?


I did. (years ago)
But I had no one to talk to - no friends who were Christian other than in label.
My folks were RC.
I was a displaced yankee in a small southern Baptist town.
No Christian bookstore.
All I could do was read my Bible someone had given me years before.

Heb 6:4-6 Haunted me!
Which is why I asked about it earlier, so someone’s answer might help someone else.
Thank you for answering it, RbG.

After awhile, I cried out to God, and He gave me peace.

As for OSAS, anyone really concerned about their position in Christ and worried about this question, is already on the right track and so should not worry about it.

My problem with OSAS, is that “getting someone saved” seems to be a goal, rather than a starting place.

Newbies need nurturing. Not sent on their way.
Richard

belville
Oct 4th 2008, 05:35 AM
im not sure if im understanding this forum question right but here is a verse were it says you cannot lose your slavation no matter what

KJV -Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation :in whom also after that
ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.:idea::idea:

this verse means that once were saved , we are sealed by god and that nothing can break us apart when we accept jesus as our lord and savior and have a personal relationship w/the lord.

hope this helped

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 4th 2008, 12:37 PM
<snip>
I wouldn’t think that you would believe that you will someday fall away from Him, right?

I did. (years ago)
But I had no one to talk to - no friends who were Christian other than in label.
My folks were RC.
I was a displaced yankee in a small southern Baptist town.
No Christian bookstore.
All I could do was read my Bible someone had given me years before.

Heb 6:4-6 Haunted me!
Which is why I asked about it earlier, so someone’s answer might help someone else.
Thank you for answering it, RbG.

After awhile, I cried out to God, and He gave me peace.

As for OSAS, anyone really concerned about their position in Christ and worried about this question, is already on the right track and so should not worry about it.

My problem with OSAS, is that “getting someone saved” seems to be a goal, rather than a starting place.

Newbies need nurturing. Not sent on their way.
Richard


Just so that we are on the same page, for I don’t think you came to Jesus with the express intent to leave Him some day… BUT looking back now, you say you ‘backslid’, but at the time of first confession - my contention is that 1) you either went through the motions and didn’t understand salvation’s call and then when tested, you left or 2) you did believe, yet your heart wasn’t changed along with your head understandings -- and then now, looking back, you say you backslid – so it be my contention that your faith before backsliding was build on something else instead of the rock of Christ.


So the after ‘I cried out part’ that you offered, and God gave you peace, would you say that this was the ‘real time’ of your salvation calling? And if you do say that this time was the ‘real’ time, did you still think you’d wonder away as maybe before? And if you say that you did have doubts again, then again I ask about the foundation of faith.

And lastly… to your comment: ”My problem with OSAS, is that “getting someone saved” seems to be a goal, rather than a starting place.” This is not a tenet to the security of salvation’s calling within OSAS, maybe just your misappropriating a definition not common to OSAS. Salvation is of the Lord, and there are many mega churches for whom their goal is to grow and ‘count’ the professions of faith. And their doctrines span both [N]OSAS.

Is it possible that each one is truly saved within these mega churches or even churches who work to hear the 'sinner's prayer?' With God all things are possible. But is it likely? I’d have to say no, not highly, for the way to Christ is narrow, and the heart is the culprit of true change, of repentance and leaving baggage, of understanding and desiring and loving Christ over all things.

But again, someone can have a head knowledge of salvation without a changed heart…and thus their faith endures for a season and then dies, are they then really a true believer? Tares look like wheat, but tares are not wheat nor have the food value [fruit] that wheat offers. But back to my point, I submit that every believer starts out that Christ is the real thing and that there is no dream that they will turn away, those to themselves, they would have to say that OSAS be a truism….

But folks will and do ‘fall away’, reject, turn… but that side of the coin in why - is for another thread to discuss.


For His glory…

RbG

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 12:58 PM
The 'tactics' God uses is the preaching of the word, witnessing and testimonies of others.... For God open hearts and shuts hearts in understanding.... and use men to reach men....

So anyone who understands and believes, consider your heart opened to the wisdom of salvation's call...

So the scripture stands that if we believe we will be saved?

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have

Firstfruits

Richard H
Oct 4th 2008, 03:04 PM
Just so that we are on the same page, for I don’t think you came to Jesus with the express intent to leave Him some day… BUT looking back now, you say you ‘backslid’, but at the time of first confession - my contention is that 1) you either went through the motions and didn’t understand salvation’s call and then when tested, you left or 2) you did believe, yet your heart wasn’t changed along with your head understandings -- and then now, looking back, you say you backslid – so it be my contention that your faith before backsliding was build on something else instead of the rock of Christ.


So the after ‘I cried out part’ that you offered, and God gave you peace, would you say that this was the ‘real time’ of your salvation calling? And if you do say that this time was the ‘real’ time, did you still think you’d wonder away as maybe before? And if you say that you did have doubts again, then again I ask about the foundation of faith.

And lastly… to your comment: ”My problem with OSAS, is that “getting someone saved” seems to be a goal, rather than a starting place.” This is not a tenet to the security of salvation’s calling within OSAS, maybe just your misappropriating a definition not common to OSAS. Salvation is of the Lord, and there are many mega churches for whom their goal is to grow and ‘count’ the professions of faith. And their doctrines span both [N]OSAS.

Is it possible that each one is truly saved within these mega churches or even churches who work to hear the 'sinner's prayer?' With God all things are possible. But is it likely? I’d have to say no, not highly, for the way to Christ is narrow, and the heart is the culprit of true change, of repentance and leaving baggage, of understanding and desiring and loving Christ over all things.

But again, someone can have a head knowledge of salvation without a changed heart…and thus their faith endures for a season and then dies, are they then really a true believer? Tares look like wheat, but tares are not wheat nor have the food value [fruit] that wheat offers. But back to my point, I submit that every believer starts out that Christ is the real thing and that there is no dream that they will turn away, those to themselves, they would have to say that OSAS be a truism….

But folks will and do ‘fall away’, reject, turn… but that side of the coin in why - is for another thread to discuss.


For His glory…

RbG
Ironically, I recently realized (after writing my testimony) that my “salvation” (if you hold to OSAS) was years before I even realized I was His.
I had prayed with the man on the 700 Club, but the next morning, I continued as before sinning and not knowing God.

Years after that, He alerted me (3x) to sin in my life. I considered myself a seeker – an agnostic – not a Christian.
Over a year after that, I was given the thought that I couldn’t see a perfect God, by looking at imperfect people.

I made the intent to follow Christ, and He filled me. At that time, I knew I was a new creation in Christ.

For years I wondered why (out of the blue) God would alert me to sin (sin which I had been doing for over a year before that), before I was a Christian.
I realize now, He took me as His when I first prayed years before I “became” a Christian,
but since I was showing no fruit – no evidence, His Spirit was not going to contend with me forever.

As for not being on the Rock… Granted, my understanding was shallow at the time.
Christians seem to forget how it was to struggle without even knowing what the right questions to ask.

It’s easy to state that “I had ‘no proper foundation’”, but my foundation was my being filled.
Not just some emotions – but an instant knowing of God’s reality and my newness.
I went from “I don’t know that God exists, but if He does…” TO “of course, God exists and Jesus is real”.

It was clear to me that we are called to holiness.
Unfortunately, I had no one to disciple me – no one of whom I could ask questions. I had God’s word and that was it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 certainly did seem to say thatone could fall away.
I had no understanding of what that entailed and the enemy used my ignorance against me, planting doubts and limiting God’s patience.
I had no concept of OSAS or NOSAS. Just this verse - haunting me.

That is the past and these are the conclusions I’ve come to:

Now if OSAS is true, I could have ignored God when He alerted me to sin, because I prayed that prayer - years before.
I didn’t need to do anything else. He had done it all and nothing I could do or not do really mattered.

But if OSAS is NOT true, His voice to me (as one who prayed the prayer), was a last warning – a wake up call.

As to the moment of my “salvation”, I do not know. :rolleyes:
I can tell you when I made a decision to follow Jesus as Lord even with my very limited understanding, I became a new creation.

Was it the prayer with no understanding or the decision with limited understanding?

Jesus said that unless a man is born again, he can’t enter the kingdom.

Was it the prayer or the decision?
Was it the prayer or the new creation?

And for those having made that decision, why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him?
Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:3-6

And are there some of whom He will say ‘I never knew ye’?

It seems to me that Jesus did not teach OSAS.

Certainly, there is the element of trusting God with our future – that it is not our righteousness, but His mercy.
But OSAS promotes the “moment of salvation” as if that is the only requirement. We are to pick up our crosses (the flesh) and follow Him.

Richard

RogerW
Oct 4th 2008, 03:10 PM
So the scripture stands that if we believe we will be saved?

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

Absolutely true statements from the Word of God! Now, who will believe and how will they believe? If the work of salvation is ALL of the Lord, will the Lord do a work and then lose what He has worked so hard for?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 4th 2008, 03:24 PM
Ironically, I recently realized (after writing my testimony) that my “salvation” (if you hold to OSAS) was years before I even realized I was His.
I had prayed with the man on the 700 Club, but the next morning, I continued as before sinning and not knowing God.

Years after that, He alerted me (3x) to sin in my life. I considered myself a seeker – an agnostic – not a Christian.
Over a year after that, I was given the thought that I couldn’t see a perfect God, by looking at imperfect people.

I made the intent to follow Christ, and He filled me. At that time, I knew I was a new creation in Christ.

For years I wondered why (out of the blue) God would alert me to sin (sin which I had been doing for over a year before that), before I was a Christian.
I realize now, He took me as His when I first prayed years before I “became” a Christian,
but since I was showing no fruit – no evidence, His Spirit was not going to contend with me forever.

As for not being on the Rock… Granted, my understanding was shallow at the time.
Christians seem to forget how it was to struggle without even knowing what the right questions to ask.

It’s easy to state that “I had ‘no proper foundation’”, but my foundation was my being filled.
Not just some emotions – but an instant knowing of God’s reality and my newness.
I went from “I don’t know that God exists, but if He does…” TO “of course, God exists and Jesus is real”.

It was clear to me that we are called to holiness.
Unfortunately, I had no one to disciple me – no one of whom I could ask questions. I had God’s word and that was it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 certainly did seem to say thatone could fall away.
I had no understanding of what that entailed and the enemy used my ignorance against me, planting doubts and limiting God’s patience.
I had no concept of OSAS or NOSAS. Just this verse - haunting me.

That is the past and these are the conclusions I’ve come to:

Now if OSAS is true, I could have ignored God when He alerted me to sin, because I prayed that prayer - years before.
I didn’t need to do anything else. He had done it all and nothing I could do or not do really mattered.

But if OSAS is NOT true, His voice to me (as one who prayed the prayer), was a last warning – a wake up call.

As to the moment of my “salvation”, I do not know. :rolleyes:
I can tell you when I made a decision to follow Jesus as Lord even with my very limited understanding, I became a new creation.

Was it the prayer with no understanding or the decision with limited understanding?

Jesus said that unless a man is born again, he can’t enter the kingdom.

Was it the prayer or the decision?
Was it the prayer or the new creation?

And for those having made that decision, why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him?
Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:3-6

And are there some of whom He will say ‘I never knew ye’?

It seems to me that Jesus did not teach OSAS.

Certainly, there is the element of trusting God with our future – that it is not our righteousness, but His mercy.
But OSAS promotes the “moment of salvation” as if that is the only requirement. We are to pick up our crosses (the flesh) and follow Him.

Richard

Greetings Richard,

I agree that once saved always saved does imply no responsibility on our part. What if I define this as the Bible does? That is perseverance or preservation of the saints? What does that imply to you? Would that still imply no responisbility for Christians? Are the warnings there for our encouragement, edification, spiritual growth, and maturity or are they there as threats that what Christ has begun in us, we could cast away forever? If Christ does not finish the good work He began in us, how can we reconcile these two verses? If we can lose our salvation, wouldn't our believing this force contradiction upon the Word of God?

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 4th 2008, 05:01 PM
It seemed significant to me, that Revelation should mention the Commandments of God in addition to faith in Jesus.
It was my feeble attempt to get people to evaluate the Ten Commandments to see if there was one they missed. Not of the letter, but of the Spirit.

It was in no way intended as a threat.
If you interpreted it as such, then I am sorry for having put them there.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I think we may not be on the same page :hmm:.

I was responding to these statements you made.

(1) Now if OSAS is true, I could have ignored God when He alerted me to sin, because I prayed that prayer - years before.
(2) I didn’t need to do anything else. He had done it all and nothing I could do or not do really mattered.
(3) And for those having made that decision, why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him?
(4) It seems to me that Jesus did not teach OSAS.
(5) But OSAS promotes the “moment of salvation” as if that is the only requirement. We are to pick up our crosses (the flesh) and follow Him.

It seemed to me what troubles you with OSAS is that it implies no accountability or responsibilty on our part after salvation. This is why instead of using the term once saved always saved, I used the biblical term of "perseverance or presevation" of the saints (POTS). In this Scripture shows us that after Christ saves us, we are to abide in Him, this is a command. But of course we don't do this perfectly in this life, we still need His preserving us, and unless He keeps us, none of us will abide in Him to the end.

I had hoped I could help you to see that while I too don't like the phrase "once saved always saved" because of what it implies, I absolutely believe Scripture affirms that Christ eternally saves all who believe. That does not leave us without responsibility, but it does assure us that even though we cannot, without His help through the Holy Spirit, continue to abide in Him, He will always be with us helping us in our weakness, and He will never leave us nor forsake us. Nor will He allow His own to fall away from His love forever.

Hope this helps.

Many Blessings,
RW

Richard H
Oct 4th 2008, 05:24 PM
Hi Richard,

I think we may not be on the same page :hmm:.

I was responding to these statements you made.

(1) Now if OSAS is true, I could have ignored God when He alerted me to sin, because I prayed that prayer - years before.
(2) I didn’t need to do anything else. He had done it all and nothing I could do or not do really mattered.
(3) And for those having made that decision, why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him?
(4) It seems to me that Jesus did not teach OSAS.
(5) But OSAS promotes the “moment of salvation” as if that is the only requirement. We are to pick up our crosses (the flesh) and follow Him.

It seemed to me what troubles you with OSAS is that it implies no accountability or responsibilty on our part after salvation. This is why instead of using the term once saved always saved, I used the biblical term of "perseverance or presevation" of the saints (POTS). In this Scripture shows us that after Christ saves us, we are to abide in Him, this is a command. But of course we don't do this perfectly in this life, we still need His preserving us, and unless He keeps us, none of us will abide in Him to the end.

I had hoped I could help you to see that while I too don't like the phrase "once saved always saved" because of what it implies, I absolutely believe Scripture affirms that Christ eternally saves all who believe. That does not leave us without responsibility, but it does assure us that even though we cannot, without His help through the Holy Spirit, continue to abide in Him, He will always be with us helping us in our weakness, and He will never leave us nor forsake us. Nor will He allow His own to fall away from His love forever.

Hope this helps.

Many Blessings,
RW
Thanks for clearing that up.
Richard

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 4th 2008, 05:31 PM
Ironically, I recently realized (after writing my testimony) that my “salvation” (if you hold to OSAS) was years before I even realized I was His.
I had prayed with the man on the 700 Club, but the next morning, I continued as before sinning and not knowing God.

Years after that, He alerted me (3x) to sin in my life. I considered myself a seeker – an agnostic – not a Christian.
Over a year after that, I was given the thought that I couldn’t see a perfect God, by looking at imperfect people.

I made the intent to follow Christ, and He filled me. At that time, I knew I was a new creation in Christ.

For years I wondered why (out of the blue) God would alert me to sin (sin which I had been doing for over a year before that), before I was a Christian.
I realize now, He took me as His when I first prayed years before I “became” a Christian,
but since I was showing no fruit – no evidence, His Spirit was not going to contend with me forever.

As for not being on the Rock… Granted, my understanding was shallow at the time.
Christians seem to forget how it was to struggle without even knowing what the right questions to ask.

It’s easy to state that “I had ‘no proper foundation’”, but my foundation was my being filled.
Not just some emotions – but an instant knowing of God’s reality and my newness.
I went from “I don’t know that God exists, but if He does…” TO “of course, God exists and Jesus is real”.

It was clear to me that we are called to holiness.
Unfortunately, I had no one to disciple me – no one of whom I could ask questions. I had God’s word and that was it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 certainly did seem to say thatone could fall away.
I had no understanding of what that entailed and the enemy used my ignorance against me, planting doubts and limiting God’s patience.
I had no concept of OSAS or NOSAS. Just this verse - haunting me.

That is the past and these are the conclusions I’ve come to:

Now if OSAS is true, I could have ignored God when He alerted me to sin, because I prayed that prayer - years before.
I didn’t need to do anything else. He had done it all and nothing I could do or not do really mattered.

But if OSAS is NOT true, His voice to me (as one who prayed the prayer), was a last warning – a wake up call.

As to the moment of my “salvation”, I do not know. :rolleyes:
I can tell you when I made a decision to follow Jesus as Lord even with my very limited understanding, I became a new creation.

Was it the prayer with no understanding or the decision with limited understanding?

Jesus said that unless a man is born again, he can’t enter the kingdom.

Was it the prayer or the decision?
Was it the prayer or the new creation?

And for those having made that decision, why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him?
Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:3-6

And are there some of whom He will say ‘I never knew ye’?

It seems to me that Jesus did not teach OSAS.

Certainly, there is the element of trusting God with our future – that it is not our righteousness, but His mercy.
But OSAS promotes the “moment of salvation” as if that is the only requirement. We are to pick up our crosses (the flesh) and follow Him.

Richard


I guess I'm not as clear is I had hoped... Let me try again...

Salvation is from God for God and so on as I've typed before... so to God -- all that He has deemed saved will be saved, every last one... Now the challenge that comes into play is from you and I, as we ask are we among those God has secured?


So we are responsible, we are to listen, we are to behave, we are accountable, but all things are at the directive of God.... So OSAS is true for all God has elected... the question is 'am I one of the elect?' And to that Scripture shows how to know yes or no.

Hope this offers clearer logic that OSAS or POTS as Roger has stated are true statements, different vantage points

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 06:59 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Absolutely true statements from the Word of God! Now, who will believe and how will they believe? If the work of salvation is ALL of the Lord, will the Lord do a work and then lose what He has worked so hard for?

Many Blessings,
RW

The problem is that not all will believe even though they have heard the word.

Rom 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Firstfruits

RogerW
Oct 4th 2008, 07:39 PM
The problem is that not all will believe even though they have heard the word.

Rom 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

But why won't some believe? We all hear the same gospel, and faith comes by hearing (Ro 10:17), so why do some hear but don't believe?

Blessings,
RW

Richard H
Oct 4th 2008, 07:40 PM
I guess I'm not as clear is I had hoped... Let me try again...

Salvation is from God for God and so on as I've typed before... so to God -- all that He has deemed saved will be saved, every last one... Now the challenge that comes into play is from you and I, as we ask are we among those God has secured?


So we are responsible, we are to listen, we are to behave, we are accountable, but all things are at the directive of God.... So OSAS is true for all God has elected... the question is 'am I one of the elect?' And to that Scripture shows how to know yes or no.

Hope this offers clearer logic that OSAS or POTS as Roger has stated are true statements, different vantage points
Yup. Got it. :)
Richard

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 03:32 AM
But can you lose something that you never had?

Firstfruits


NO. That is why a saved person can never be lost again, and if you were never saved then you certainly cannot lose a salvation you never had! That's why some say that a person didn't mess up so bad that they lost salvation, they just never were to begin with.
Was that a trick question?
(I'm being funny. Sorry) :)

The Preacher
Oct 5th 2008, 03:38 AM
Hebrews 6 is very clear that those who have falling away cannot be renewed.
It shows that they had something and then they lost it. Applying this passage to errant jews shows a lack of understanding of syntax. The people this passage refers to have clearly tasted salvation.

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 03:57 AM
This is kind of besides the point but I believe once God saves you at the time you first believe, you stay saved for it doesn't depend on what a person does to be saved, if it were then you wouldn't have needed God to save you to begin with. One only has to believe God's words. To believe that what He said he means.
Also, faith, belief is so simple it is hard! It's hard to believe that nothing can separate me from Christ. That's there is nothing I can do or not do to separate myself, except to not believe in the first place. God says after you first believe then certain things take place that He does, not what we do or don't do.

My main point is this.
Now, if I WERE to believe someone could lose their salvation, I feel sure that I can say that there would be very, very few who would. This is why I say it. When you believe, God does something in your heart, your mind, your will and your emotions that no matter what your outer actions look like, no matter what you might say in certain times and seasons of life, you still love Him with All your heart, in the inner man, in the inside. I feel it's a love that always calls you back if you drift. It's a love, a calling that I just don't feel allows a truly saved person to deny the Lord in his/her utmost being, to the point of being unsaved. It's hard to believe that if you believe in the name of the Lord Jesus you shall be saved. That YOU don't have to do anything but simply believe. That just seems too hard for people who just HAVE to always do something.

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 04:10 AM
Here's a point I've pondered. We say we can disagree on the Rapture because it doesn't pertain to salvation but yet here we are...disagreeing on God's salvation and all it involves. hummmmm.

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 04:16 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

But why won't some believe? We all hear the same gospel, and faith comes by hearing (Ro 10:17), so why do some hear but don't believe?

Blessings,
RW
Perhaps because they are so satisfied with the lusts of the world etc, they don't want to believe?

Dani H
Oct 5th 2008, 04:19 AM
Here's a point I've pondered. We say we can disagree on the Rapture because it doesn't pertain to salvation but yet here we are...disagreeing on God's salvation and all it involves. hummmmm.

Now you know how Paul felt ... and maybe how God feels?

:B

:)

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 04:55 AM
Now you know how Paul felt ... and maybe how God feels?

:B

:)
Yes, because Paul KNEW once he believed he would ALWAYS be saved! How else would he have in Romans have the confidence in that to still be able to say that he could wish that he himself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh. He knew he could not be accursed nor separated from Christ.

Firstfruits
Oct 5th 2008, 10:03 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

But why won't some believe? We all hear the same gospel, and faith comes by hearing (Ro 10:17), so why do some hear but don't believe?

Blessings,
RW

This is how Jesus explained it.

Mt 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Mt 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But then you also have them that believed but fell away.

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

God bless.

Firstfruits

Dani H
Oct 5th 2008, 03:17 PM
Yes, because Paul KNEW once he believed he would ALWAYS be saved! How else would he have in Romans have the confidence in that to still be able to say that he could wish that he himself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh. He knew he could not be accursed nor separated from Christ.

You completely missed my point, but that's alright. *Hugs*

I was referring to the fact that Paul had to deal with constant disagreements and bickering amongst the believers in the churches he established, and when you read his epistles, you can readily see what all he was dealing with. :)

RogerW
Oct 5th 2008, 05:30 PM
This is how Jesus explained it.

Mt 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Mt 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But then you also have them that believed but fell away.

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

God bless.

Firstfruits

Okay, so what's the difference between those who hear, and do not understand, those who hear and believe for a short time, and those who believe unto eternal life?

They have all heard the same gospel of salvation, and the Word tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word (Ro 10:17), so why doesn't everyone who hears the gospel receive faith and become saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 5th 2008, 05:33 PM
Perhaps because they are so satisfied with the lusts of the world etc, they don't want to believe?

Greetins My heart's Desire,

Exactly! We love our sin before we are saved, and in hard hearted rebellion we refuse to hear. I'm pretty sure you already know, but for others reading this thread, what must happen for any of us to believe?

Many Blessings,

Dani H
Oct 5th 2008, 06:38 PM
Greetins My heart's Desire,

Exactly! We love our sin before we are saved, and in hard hearted rebellion we refuse to hear. I'm pretty sure you already know, but for others reading this thread, what must happen for any of us to believe?

Many Blessings,

We have to be willing ...

RogerW
Oct 5th 2008, 06:51 PM
We have to be willing ...

Greetings Dani,

Welcome to the community!

Wasn't the one who believed for a time and fell away willing? For those who are willing, why are they willing when they hear, and yet some are not willing?

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Oct 5th 2008, 07:27 PM
Okay, so what's the difference between those who hear, and do not understand, those who hear and believe for a short time, and those who believe unto eternal life?

They have all heard the same gospel of salvation, and the Word tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word (Ro 10:17), so why doesn't everyone who hears the gospel receive faith and become saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

Here's an example, When Jesus came to his own, even though they had the scriptures indentifying who Jesus was, they did not all believe. However their unbelief worked in our favour, for if they had understood they would not have killed Jesus and Gentiles would not have had a chance.

They did not believe the Son of God and just as they did not believe him then the same is true today. The God of this world has blinded those that do not believe.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of god, should shine unto them.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Oct 5th 2008, 07:39 PM
Here's an example, When Jesus came to his own, even though they had the scriptures indentifying who Jesus was, they did not all believe. However their unbelief worked in our favour, for if they had understood they would not have killed Jesus and Gentiles would not have had a chance.

They did not believe the Son of God and just as they did not believe him then the same is true today. The God of this world has blinded those that do not believe.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of god, should shine unto them.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

Hi firstfruits,

Aren't all mankind born fallen in the first Adam, and in unbelief? As long as man remains in unbelief isn't it true that the god of this world holds them in blindness, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ should shine unto them? All men are born of Adam, in unbelief and blinded, some hear the gospel, have faith and believe, yet others remain in unbelief and blinded by the god of this world. Why do only some men hear, receive faith and believe, yet others do not? What makes the difference? Why are some men willing to come to Christ for life, and others are not?

Many Blessings,
RW

Josie
Oct 5th 2008, 07:47 PM
Perhaps because they are so satisfied with the lusts of the world etc, they don't want to believe?

Hi My Hearts Desire, I could never have come to God without his calling nudging dragging, I had no desire on my own.
Would some agree God has to do the calling, I can listen and hear but only God calls and opens our ears to understanding.
I have went back to the pig pen a few times after the calling, but isn't saved a process?
He calls us it is no easy journey, but we will not be certain of our salvation until we cross over to death.

Dani H
Oct 5th 2008, 09:00 PM
Greetings Dani,

Welcome to the community!

Wasn't the one who believed for a time and fell away willing? For those who are willing, why are they willing when they hear, and yet some are not willing?

Many Blessings,
RW

Hello Roger, and thank you for the welcome!

1. None can come to Jesus without the Spirit's conviction.

2. God does not move but in response to believing prayer, never arbitrarily. And He can very much make a person willing. And even willing to be willing. The Holy Spirit can make it very easy for a person to be saved, and be very convincing in His convicting.

3. Where does the ability of man's choice to resist even the strongest conviction begin?

4. My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ be formed in you.


I don't know. I understand the parable of the sower, but I don't have all the answers as to why the soil of people's hearts is how it is But I do know that God moves on people and even saves them in response to our prayer and intercession, and that the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come," not just the Spirit alone, and certainly not just the Bride alone.

You were probably looking for a more straightforward answer, eh? Alas, I don't have one.

My heart's Desire
Oct 6th 2008, 05:46 AM
I agreed with everything in your post until I came to this point. I don't believe that those who love the Lord have to ever fear 'losing' their salvation. But I do believe that someone who at one time accepted Yeshua can choose to reject Him and walk away. It's not about us jumping through hoops to prove our worthiness. We are not worthy....He is. But unfortunately, there are those who at one time trusted in Messiah that later choose to reject Him. I believe Scripture is clear that those who reject Him are not saved.

Anyway, the whole OSAS/NOSAS debate is not really my 'thing' so I think I'll try to back out now. ;) Hopefully, I've at least made it clear why I believe NOSAS.

God Bless!
That is so foreign to me.
When we trust Christ to save us because of what He did on the Cross for us and He gives us eternal life how are we able to later say "ok I reject you so I'm giving you back eternal life". Only God can give eternal life so how is it possible for a mere man to give it back? When saved we become a new Creation, so to reject Christ later one would have to go back to being an old creation. If someone who is reborn then rejects Christ, one might as well say they become unborn.
Dead in sin - reborn-new creation- rejects Christ after being born again. Do they then become an old creation or just dead?
How many times can they be reborn if they repent or return? Is that sort of like reincarnation? (which I don't believe in)
No, Once saved by Christ always saved by Christ. You cannot return to what you were before. If you could, then Christ didn't do a very good job at saving did He? I don't think we think that, so Christ saves you are saved eternally forever!

My heart's Desire
Oct 6th 2008, 05:59 AM
With regards to the OP, if it was OSAS then the whole world could be saved if there was no fear of losing their salvation because of sins that they may commit. No one would be lost.

Firstfruits

There is something right there that just doesn't sound right. Is that like the whole world can be saved as long as they fear losing that salvation? What are they trusting? Christ or the fact that they could or could not lose salvation as a requirement to be saved?
The whole world COULD be saved and it still has to do with trusting Christ alone. The only problem is we know the whole world WILL NOT come to Christ to be saved even if they think they can lose it or not.
That's like saying You can only be saved as long as you think you can lose it afterwards. Or even saying that always being afraid of God because of His judgment will keep you from losing or walking away from salvation given. Is that like serving God only because one is scared of what happens if you don't?

My heart's Desire
Oct 6th 2008, 06:14 AM
I'm sorry, but the bulk of the New Testament tells us and convinces us how much better the New Covenant is compared to the Old and that indeed the Old one has passed away. And what was the OLD Covenant? It was the Law! You know, the one that says keep these laws and commandments and you'll live but if not you'll die. The one that says you must sacrifice animals for sin to be covered up but not taken away. It was based on actions. The Old and New Covenant say without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The blood of animals could not take away sin, but the once shed blood of Christ did. It not only covered them, it took them away! For Good. You no longer how to keep the Law to have life. You only have to trust that Christ did it for you. ONCE AND FOR All!. How can you lose something that Christ Himself has secured for YOU forever if you only believe that He did? If you could you might as well be back under the Old Covenant that says if you sin you will die. The one that says the blood of animals only covers your sin but doesn't take it away! I prefer the New Covenant myself. The one that is based on better promises than the old!

My heart's Desire
Oct 6th 2008, 06:24 AM
Hi My Hearts Desire, I could never have come to God without his calling nudging dragging, I had no desire on my own.
Would some agree God has to do the calling, I can listen and hear but only God calls and opens our ears to understanding.
I have went back to the pig pen a few times after the calling, but isn't saved a process?
He calls us it is no easy journey, but we will not be certain of our salvation until we cross over to death.
I do not think I would have come to Christ if God had not called. I believe we are saved, being saved and WILL BE SAVED so its' a done deal as far as I'm concerned because I believe what Christ has told me that when I believe in Him I have eternal life. So I know that after death, I DO have eternal life in Him.
I am certain of my salvation after death just as I am certain of it now!

My heart's Desire
Oct 6th 2008, 06:36 AM
Well, I love you all in the Lord and I'm off to bed. God bless!

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 08:46 AM
Hi firstfruits,

Aren't all mankind born fallen in the first Adam, and in unbelief? As long as man remains in unbelief isn't it true that the god of this world holds them in blindness, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ should shine unto them? All men are born of Adam, in unbelief and blinded, some hear the gospel, have faith and believe, yet others remain in unbelief and blinded by the god of this world. Why do only some men hear, receive faith and believe, yet others do not? What makes the difference? Why are some men willing to come to Christ for life, and others are not?

Many Blessings,
RW

According to the following it is because they are lovers of darkness rather than the light.

Jn 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jn 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 12:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

Jn 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 08:54 AM
There is something right there that just doesn't sound right. Is that like the whole world can be saved as long as they fear losing that salvation? What are they trusting? Christ or the fact that they could or could not lose salvation as a requirement to be saved?
The whole world COULD be saved and it still has to do with trusting Christ alone. The only problem is we know the whole world WILL NOT come to Christ to be saved even if they think they can lose it or not.
That's like saying You can only be saved as long as you think you can lose it afterwards. Or even saying that always being afraid of God because of His judgment will keep you from losing or walking away from salvation given. Is that like serving God only because one is scared of what happens if you don't?

With regards to what you say in the following; Or even saying that always being afraid of God because of His judgment will keep you from losing or walking away from salvation given. Is that like serving God only because one is scared of what happens if you don't?[/quote]

Do we not fear God?

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Oct 6th 2008, 11:13 AM
According to the following it is because they are lovers of darkness rather than the light.

Jn 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jn 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 12:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

Jn 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Firstfruits


Hi Firstfruits,

This is the sum total of EVERY man born in Adam, we all love the darkness until we are born again. What I've been trying to get you to see is that there would be no hope for any man unless something supernatural happens to the man first. We cannot come to Christ for life, He must come to us. Now this life is not something Christ offers for our consideration, life in Christ is supernaturally given to those who believe. The only way we can believe and others don't is because we have been given to "hear" supernaturally, and what we hear with supernatural hearing changes our hearts, opens our eyes that at last we see.

Are we any different than every other man born of Adam? No! We did nothing, and God did it all. He chose us for salvation, He draws us to His Word, and through the Word He calls His sheep by name, giving them ears to hear and eyes to see that we may turn to Christ in repentance for life. Salvation is of the Lord! Once God has done all the work of saving His own, why would He then let us go away from Him? We are His possession, he purchased His own with His blood, and what He begins in us in salvation He finishes to the end. None of His can ever be lost, for He will lose none of them.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 12:28 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

This is the sum total of EVERY man born in Adam, we all love the darkness until we are born again. What I've been trying to get you to see is that there would be no hope for any man unless something supernatural happens to the man first. We cannot come to Christ for life, He must come to us. Now this life is not something Christ offers for our consideration, life in Christ is supernaturally given to those who believe. The only way we can believe and others don't is because we have been given to "hear" supernaturally, and what we hear with supernatural hearing changes our hearts, opens our eyes that at last we see.

Are we any different than every other man born of Adam? No! We did nothing, and God did it all. He chose us for salvation, He draws us to His Word, and through the Word He calls His sheep by name, giving them ears to hear and eyes to see that we may turn to Christ in repentance for life. Salvation is of the Lord! Once God has done all the work of saving His own, why would He then let us go away from Him? We are His possession, he purchased His own with His blood, and what He begins in us in salvation He finishes to the end. None of His can ever be lost, for He will lose none of them.

Many Blessings,
RW

The Gospel is for all, however if we do do not accept it the message of the Gospel is still the same.

Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Heb 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Not all will believe. How would you be moved away from the Gospel you have heard and believed?

Firstfruits

DIZZY
Oct 6th 2008, 12:29 PM
I try not to confuse, I'm just reading from the Bible, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3:16

The Bible says you can fall from grace, only you can allow that to happen, no man can separate yourself and God but by yourself.. if that made since..

Hi Travis,
I have only just started to read this thread and i must say I believe OSAS. Once you have placed your live in God's hands there is nothing not even yourself can take it out of His hand.

John 10:28-30
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

We are not greater than Christ or the Father so how can we take back what has been given to God.

Romans 8:34-39
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are saved by grace not the law.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

We can not save ourselves it is Christ who saves us from ourseleves. We are sinners and we will continue to sin until Christ comes for us. We do our best not to sin but our best is not good enough.

1 John 1:7-9
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is sin that seperates man from God, that is why Christ came. Christ came to be sin for us. He bore the punishment for our sin so that all who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

There is no catch He has not said "By the way if you sin and forget to repent of it, sorry you wont be saved, I'm not covering you for that."

When He returns we will have to bring into account what we have done since our salvation. Our works will be judged but we will not lose our salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Now after having said all this someone else on this post has probably said it. I think a person needs to be reminded all the time that they can not lose their salvation. For then that makes the promises of God to be untrue and God is not a liar or a man that He should lie.

God promises eternal life through Jesus Christ unconditionally and there is nothing we can do to change that.

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 12:36 PM
Hi Travis,
I have only just started to read this thread and i must say I believe OSAS. Once you have placed your live in God's hands there is nothing not even yourself can take it out of His hand.

John 10:28-30
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

We are not greater than Christ or the Father so how can we take back what has been given to God.

Romans 8:34-39
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are saved by grace not the law.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.


We can not save ourselves it is Christ who saves us from ourseleves. We are sinners and we will continue to sin until Christ comes for us. We do our best not to sin but our best is not good enough.

1 John 1:7-9
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is sin that seperates man from God, that is why Christ came. Christ came to be sin for us. He bore the punishment for our sin so that all who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

There is no catch He has not said "By the way if you sin and forget to repent of it, sorry you wont be saved, I'm not covering you for that."

When He returns we will have to bring into account what we have done since our salvation. Our works will be judged but we will not lose our salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Now after having said all this someone else on this post has probably said it. I think a person needs to be reminded all the time that they can not lose their salvation. For then that makes the promises of God to be untrue and God is not a liar or a man that He should lie.

God promises eternal life through Jesus Christ unconditionally and there is nothing we can do to change that.

With all that you have said it all depends on wether or not you remain in the truth you have learnt through the Gospel.

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Firstfruits

DIZZY
Oct 6th 2008, 12:44 PM
With all that you have said it all depends on wether or not you remain in the truth you have learnt through the Gospel.

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Firstfruits

Hi firstfruits,
What is faith?
What is the hope of the Gospel?

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 12:54 PM
Hi firstfruits,
What is faith?
What is the hope of the Gospel?

The hope of the Gospel

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Faith

Heb 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Oct 6th 2008, 01:08 PM
Yes, because Paul KNEW once he believed he would ALWAYS be saved! How else would he have in Romans have the confidence in that to still be able to say that he could wish that he himself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh. He knew he could not be accursed nor separated from Christ.
No... what Paul knew was that it wouldn't nor does work that way. ;)

DIZZY
Oct 6th 2008, 01:11 PM
The hope of the Gospel

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Faith

Heb 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Firstfruits

This is what you said previous post:
With all that you have said it all depends on wether or not you remain in the truth you have learnt through the Gospel.

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hi Firstfruits,
Faith is the trust in we have in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To me this verse tells me I am a sinner and will continue in sin until He returns for me. Not only do we sin outwardly we sin in thought aswell. I do not believe there is one person on this earth who can say they never have bad thoughts.

I do not believe if I have a bad thought the second before I die I will be seperated from my Lord and Saviour forever.

The gospel is glad tidings, esp. concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the world by Christ.
Hope is to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.
Romans 5:1-3
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
God's promise is OSAS but that does not give us a license to sin. Just as Paul struggled with his flesh so shall we. We are not perfect, but we are made perfect through the blood of Christ.
Goodnight my friend

ProjectPeter
Oct 6th 2008, 01:28 PM
This is what you said previous post:
With all that you have said it all depends on wether or not you remain in the truth you have learnt through the Gospel.

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hi Firstfruits,
Faith is the trust in we have in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To me this verse tells me I am a sinner and will continue in sin until He returns for me. Not only do we sin outwardly we sin in thought aswell. I do not believe there is one person on this earth who can say they never have bad thoughts.

I do not believe if I have a bad thought the second before I die I will be seperated from my Lord and Saviour forever.

The gospel is glad tidings, esp. concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the world by Christ.
Hope is to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.
Romans 5:1-3
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
God's promise is OSAS but that does not give us a license to sin. Just as Paul struggled with his flesh so shall we. We are not perfect, but we are made perfect through the blood of Christ.
Goodnight my friend
But then you have to ask the question... "why did John write that in his first epistle?"

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Don't you think it would be at least more accurate to say that sin should become a rarity in the life of a Christian as opposed to the norm?

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 01:29 PM
This is what you said previous post:
With all that you have said it all depends on wether or not you remain in the truth you have learnt through the Gospel.

Col 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hi Firstfruits,
Faith is the trust in we have in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To me this verse tells me I am a sinner and will continue in sin until He returns for me. Not only do we sin outwardly we sin in thought aswell. I do not believe there is one person on this earth who can say they never have bad thoughts.

I do not believe if I have a bad thought the second before I die I will be seperated from my Lord and Saviour forever.

The gospel is glad tidings, esp. concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the world by Christ.
Hope is to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.
Romans 5:1-3
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
God's promise is OSAS but that does not give us a license to sin. Just as Paul struggled with his flesh so shall we. We are not perfect, but we are made perfect through the blood of Christ.
Goodnight my friend

What is the end of your faith or you salvation?

After you have believed, what do you hope for?

Mt 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Lk 6:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Col 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you believe that being save is al there is?

Firstfruits