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View Full Version : Discussion U.K.'s Biggest Credit Card Provider Says We'll All Get A Chip Soon



MeerkatMadden
Sep 10th 2008, 08:31 PM
The biggest credit card provider in the U.K. is now publicly saying that the plan is for everyone to start paying for their purchases with a microchip instead of a credit card very soon.

"In time you won't have to carry a plastic credit card around with you if you don't want to, although some people will chose to for nostalgic reasons," Barclaycard Chief Executive Officer Antony Jenkins stated recently.

This is just another small step towards the day when everyone in society will be forced to get chipped.

This news story continues here:

http://themoralcollapseofamerica.blogspot.com/2008/09/uks-biggest-credit-card-provider-says.html

quiet dove
Sep 10th 2008, 08:55 PM
They book this like is it a way against fraud, but the only fraud it would prevent is the actual card getting stolen. It does nothing to prevent theft of information that is accessible in other ways: phone, internet, and the many other ways of getting a persons personal information.

Timshel
Sep 11th 2008, 09:33 PM
:ppThis is scary, I wonder what kind of excuse they're going to think of next.:lol:
I just hope God's grace will be with me, I don't know how long I can last without me coke zero. I kid.;)

moonglow
Sep 11th 2008, 10:05 PM
The orginal news story this Blog got this off of is here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUKL749431520080907?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews

And it doesn't say one word about a chip being implanted in anyone...in fact it says this: Barclaycard, owned by Barclays Plc, introduced its first contactless credit card as the OnePulse product one year ago, in which a microchip allows customers to pay for goods by touching the card against a reader without having to remove it from their wallet or purse.

So you still have to have a card...this whole story is very misleading. Apparently the chip will be IN the card...not in people like the blogger suggests....

Timshel
Sep 11th 2008, 10:09 PM
Moonglow, thank you for the clarification, wheew.:pp

tango
Sep 11th 2008, 10:13 PM
The Barclaycard Wave (as I think it's called) allows three functions to be combined into a single card. It works as a regular debit card, it also works as a contactless purchase mechanism for small purchases (I think the limit is £10, equivalent to about $18), and also an Oyster card. Oyster is the contactless travel payment system used across London's Underground and bus network.

For now the chips are embedded into cards rather than people, but it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see the option of having chips embedded into the human body as a convenience - it's easy enough to push the advantages of never losing or forgetting your card. And, of course, given the fact that a card has to be waved over a reader using a hand the most obvious place to put the chip would be in the hand.

moonglow
Sep 11th 2008, 10:15 PM
oh and I have to really, really object to this fear pushing on that blog!

Will you resist when you cannot buy or sell anything without it?

What will you do?

Where will you live?

How will you buy food for you and your family?

Will you resist when they start putting people without the chip in camps?

Will you resist when they start waterboarding you?

What about when they threaten to put a nail through your eye?

What about when they put you in a cramped, windowless cell and they turn out all the lights and they let dozens and dozens of hungry rats in?

What about when they start torturing your children right in front of you?

Will you still resist even then?

Will you still resist when they threaten to burn all of your skin off with acid and then throw you into a blazing fire?

Is it worth it for you to resist?

Why not just make things easy on yourself and take the chip and then you can stay in your house and buy and sell and you can go to work and live normally and the new world order will get of your back?

Is any of this even In the bible? No...not one word about being tortured or having any of this other stuff happen to us. The worse the bible says is those refusing to worship the beast will be killed. Nothing about watching your children being tortured or having your skin burned off. Nothing about starving either! Or running and hiding. This stuff really upsets me....in scares some people into having nervous breakdowns! Sends some into a complete and total state of panic and that isn't what our message should be at all. The focus should only be ON Christ...if a person stays focused on Him everything else will fall into place.

aceinthehouse
Sep 11th 2008, 10:19 PM
Unless this card is glued to your forehead or right hand,it's not the mark of satan...

Now when this method passes with flying colors they will find a way to make it, even easier and more convienent for you...you won't need a card at all!All you have to do is pledge your allegience to ?whoever? and just carry his name,symbol,number or whatever on your forehead or right hand...(no big deal really..right?)and you can buy anything you like...

.....I wouldn't invest in that Visa,Mastercard,verichip,digital angel or whatever though,if I were you guys....Cause you can't get a refund on that one!;)and live to tell about it...

tango
Sep 11th 2008, 10:20 PM
Fear mongering certainly doesn't help, but although the Bible does say those who don't take the mark will be killed (as opposed to defining torture in any detail) we already know of Christians being tortured in other countries even now, and that's before a worldwide tribulation starts.

It's important to know that we may well suffer things we can't imagine right now, but the question "is it worth it to resist" is pretty well answered in Rev 14:9-11.

moonglow
Sep 11th 2008, 10:21 PM
The Barclaycard Wave (as I think it's called) allows three functions to be combined into a single card. It works as a regular debit card, it also works as a contactless purchase mechanism for small purchases (I think the limit is £10, equivalent to about $18), and also an Oyster card. Oyster is the contactless travel payment system used across London's Underground and bus network.

For now the chips are embedded into cards rather than people, but it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see the option of having chips embedded into the human body as a convenience - it's easy enough to push the advantages of never losing or forgetting your card. And, of course, given the fact that a card has to be waved over a reader using a hand the most obvious place to put the chip would be in the hand.

If that happens...which if it does it only will in first world countries as third world countries have no money to buy anything with in the first place...then thieves will be cutting chips out of people...but QD also brought up a good point...chips aren't even safe from technology...like people able to use something to get information off your cell phones and other things. People will simply invent something to walk by those with chips that will scan the information right off their chips stealing their ID and all their bank information..then putting it on their own chips and pretending to be you! ...then will we be back to square one. Thieves are probably already planning for this! I would rather be scanned (if I had a chip) then have it cut out of me! :eek:

God bless

EarlyCall
Sep 11th 2008, 10:29 PM
There are people already being chipped for various reasons. But it isn't widespread. However, it is my opinion that it is coming. More than financial transactions will be possible with an implanted chip.

What few know is that business will be a driving factor behind such a move to implant people with chips.

I see some people come in to threads of this nature and make all sorts of claims when they really ought not since they know nothing of the technology, its uses and what is in the works. People that don't know what they are talking about ought not pretend they do.

One of the claims I hear is that an implanted chip isn't safe from having its information stolen. The conclusion they then draw from this is therefore such a thing can never be. I wonder if it ever occurs to such people that this problem can be overcome and will be overcome. Does it occur to these people making this claim that such situations have occurred before regarding technology and information and the safeguarding of it or is this the first such occurrence of this type of problem? Hardly.

Some people think the poor in the world will not get chips because there is no money for such a thing. Some people need to realize that the poor do not decide what happens in this world, and if the rich wish to implant all the people of the world with a chip, they will do so. The rich and powerful make the decisions - not the poor. This seems beyond the grasp of some however.

But it is an argument I hear and is easily debunked and in fact I have debunked it before.

China is planning on giving everyone of its citizens a card with a chip in it. Any poor people in China? Any people in China in very remote places? Will it cost a lot of money? The answer is yes to all three questions. And yet China is going to do it. Did they ask the poor people if they wanted it? No. The rich and the powerful make the decisions as I said and not the poor. The point isn't that China is going to issue cards with chips but that they are going to do so to everyone. It could just as easily be an implanted chip. That is the point.

Is there money to chip all the people in the world? Well, obama in all his wisdom wants to throw away 845 billion dollars on the poor in the world in addition to what we already give. Now that is our money. It is not money from any other country.

So please, arguing there isn't enough money is simply ignoring reality and ultimately a silly argument; silly because it runs contrary to reality supported by facts.

tango
Sep 11th 2008, 11:48 PM
If that happens...which if it does it only will in first world countries as third world countries have no money to buy anything with in the first place...then thieves will be cutting chips out of people...but QD also brought up a good point...chips aren't even safe from technology...like people able to use something to get information off your cell phones and other things. People will simply invent something to walk by those with chips that will scan the information right off their chips stealing their ID and all their bank information..then putting it on their own chips and pretending to be you! ...then will we be back to square one. Thieves are probably already planning for this! I would rather be scanned (if I had a chip) then have it cut out of me! :eek:

God bless

The fact it isn't secure won't stop it being introduced. In the UK we have chip-and-pin credit cards, where instead of signing for something you enter a four-digit identification number at the point of purchase. We are told this is more secure, but a signature takes time to learn to forge. I've been able to watch people type in their PIN from anything up to thirty feet away. With the PIN observed all you have to do is acquire the card (not difficult for those disposed to violence) and you can go shopping.

The PIN approach is so weak it almost beggars belief - if as a white man I attempted to pass off a signature for, say, "Mrs J Ogunbe" it's a fair bet that I am not the person named on the card. With a PIN I simply tap in the numbers and the checkout assistant doesn't even look at the card.

There are also many more purposes for an implanted chip. Professor Kevin Warwick had a chip implanted in his arm so he could do things like unlock his office door and turn the light on simply by approaching them. At the time it was an academic exercise (although the ego massage associated with walking into a room and a mechanical voice greeting you by name is nice, for a geek at least), but it's easy to see how these things develop.

Timshel
Sep 12th 2008, 06:04 AM
Even if the poor countries probably won't give us obvious clues why they will need this technology, a jealous leader which is the main cause of their poverty may see to it his citizens will be fitted with such science.

Imagine the advantage to a paranoid leader being met with pockets of resistance by those who are oppressed with his leadership. He will be given the chance to monitor their every movement with such a technology, if it will be a given that it can have the feature to use GPS.

This is very tempting also for parents, just in cases of abduction it will be easier for authorities to locate the missing child.

I am being very general here, but we will probably given such choices in the future.

Timshel
Sep 12th 2008, 06:11 AM
Will you resist when you cannot buy or sell anything without it?

What will you do?

Where will you live?

How will you buy food for you and your family?

Will you resist when they start putting people without the chip in camps?

Will you resist when they start waterboarding you?

What about when they threaten to put a nail through your eye?

What about when they put you in a cramped, windowless cell and they turn out all the lights and they let dozens and dozens of hungry rats in?

What about when they start torturing your children right in front of you?

Will you still resist even then?

Will you still resist when they threaten to burn all of your skin off with acid and then throw you into a blazing fire?

Is it worth it for you to resist?

Why not just make things easy on yourself and take the chip and then you can stay in your house and buy and sell and you can go to work and live normally and the new world order will get of your back?

My friend, this is purely speculation on my part but I believe we will be haunted and physically forced to conform to the mark of the beast, there is no boundaries for our sorrow that I can imagine.
First our friends will be alienated from us, then they'll start asking us to make choices for our family, we won't be able to work, even the simple act of buying clothes will be impossible. Basic medicine will be denied to us, and society will turn against us because if it will be justifiable for them that we should conform for a more secure society, then it will be unacceptable that we refuse to avail of such a simple technology.
The spirit of the enemy will work on them to be unsympathetic to us.

moonglow
Sep 12th 2008, 01:46 PM
Fear mongering certainly doesn't help, but although the Bible does say those who don't take the mark will be killed (as opposed to defining torture in any detail) we already know of Christians being tortured in other countries even now, and that's before a worldwide tribulation starts.

It's important to know that we may well suffer things we can't imagine right now, but the question "is it worth it to resist" is pretty well answered in Rev 14:9-11.

I realize Christians in some parts of the world are tortured and killed or jailed for their beliefs. I would bet though in these times the percentage of these is extremely small and that most Christian have and will die of natural causes, accidents and illnesses. Now the first century Christians were terribly persecuted and many slaughter! A much smaller area in the world and this was possible to do. Back then, yes being a Christian meant almost certain death.

Lets says they forced people to get the mark...which I don't see that in any verse in the bible...but lets say they do. I mean honestly why torture anyone into taking it? Just physically hold them down and inject it...then its done. (first I don't see any government having the man power to go door to door and seeing who does or doesn't have the mark..and people have survived going underground to get food, work, medication..its a big business in fact...its not that hard to hide from the government...not when millions of people are involved. In fact I had a friend that spend most of his life without a social security number and yes he worked, rented homes and got along just fine. He thought the SSN was the mark of the beast so refused to get one! He collected anquites and sold them at auctions and did just find. I have no idea how he got a drivers license without one but he did. ).

Anyway lets say they physically held you down and injected a mark in you which honestly I truly do not see happening. Will that person lose their salvation? That is the big question here and the only one that really matters. No that person would not because every single verse about the mark includes worship of the beast! So even if a person had a mark that was forced upon them...does not mean they renounced their faith in Christ and that alone is what is going to get them killed! So their is no point at all in forcing anyone...through torture or whatever means to take the mark. What's important is the worship of the beast! A person can be covered with forced marks and it won't mean a thing as long as they stay true to Christ. This is why I do not believe...especially since the bible does not say this...that anyone will be tortured into taking the mark. It would be meaningless and satan of all beings would know that. It would be easier and better just to shoot us all in the head and be done with us....and that would actually line up with scriptures much better anyway.


The fact it isn't secure won't stop it being introduced. In the UK we have chip-and-pin credit cards, where instead of signing for something you enter a four-digit identification number at the point of purchase. We are told this is more secure, but a signature takes time to learn to forge. I've been able to watch people type in their PIN from anything up to thirty feet away. With the PIN observed all you have to do is acquire the card (not difficult for those disposed to violence) and you can go shopping.

The PIN approach is so weak it almost beggars belief - if as a white man I attempted to pass off a signature for, say, "Mrs J Ogunbe" it's a fair bet that I am not the person named on the card. With a PIN I simply tap in the numbers and the checkout assistant doesn't even look at the card.

There are also many more purposes for an implanted chip. Professor Kevin Warwick had a chip implanted in his arm so he could do things like unlock his office door and turn the light on simply by approaching them. At the time it was an academic exercise (although the ego massage associated with walking into a room and a mechanical voice greeting you by name is nice, for a geek at least), but it's easy to see how these things develop.

That is true...the fact that it isn't secure won't stop it from being introduced. I just think even without Christians saying this could be the mark of the best, most will not go for having something injected in them. (not too mention the price of it) How many people are scared to death of needles? Alot. I think most people will be very unwilling to actually have something put into their bodies like this. Far too many times we have been told something is medically safe then find out later its not. Even if it could be proved without any doubts these would not get into the blood stream and travel and were totally safe, I just cannot see people flocking to get something injected into them. I think it'll be a very hard sell.

God bless

moonglow
Sep 12th 2008, 02:06 PM
Even if the poor countries probably won't give us obvious clues why they will need this technology, a jealous leader which is the main cause of their poverty may see to it his citizens will be fitted with such science.

Imagine the advantage to a paranoid leader being met with pockets of resistance by those who are oppressed with his leadership. He will be given the chance to monitor their every movement with such a technology, if it will be a given that it can have the feature to use GPS.

This is very tempting also for parents, just in cases of abduction it will be easier for authorities to locate the missing child.

I am being very general here, but we will probably given such choices in the future.

Those resisting any government leader aren't going to be caught then marked THEN let go! I mean why let them go if they are know to cause problems with that leader? They would be jailed or killed...no need to mark them.

I want you to think about what you said...I mean really image how any leader could (or even want too) keep track of millions of people. Could you image the huge amount of money and man power it would take to have people sitting in some massive building watching a bunch of dots moving around on a screen? What would be the point of that? Look Joe and his family are on the mountain herding their sheep in. And look Tom and his village are all out working in the rice fields today. I mean what is the point of that? Not to mention the thousands upon thousands that live in dumps? Look they are digging through the trash again today looking for food like they do every day...

These governments first would simply not have the money or manpower to do such things...second this isn't in the bible! There isn't a thing suggesting the beast will watch everyone's move! Let alone those under him...



The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

We have at least 2.7 billion in the world that have no money to need a mark to buy or sell. They barter for their food or grow it or live off their livestock...or just die of starvation. Their are no banks, no grocery stores to go in and scan themselves for food because they have no money! The beast would have to first solve the world's poverty problem..then this might work...but with a new baby born around the world every second...born in jungles, born in mountains, valleys...etc...it would be impossible to keep up and make sure everyone was marked. Not too mention the money, resources and time! It sure would take more then three and a half years to get everyone marked!


My friend, this is purely speculation on my part but I believe we will be haunted and physically forced to conform to the mark of the beast, there is no boundaries for our sorrow that I can imagine.
First our friends will be alienated from us, then they'll start asking us to make choices for our family, we won't be able to work, even the simple act of buying clothes will be impossible. Basic medicine will be denied to us, and society will turn against us because if it will be justifiable for them that we should conform for a more secure society, then it will be unacceptable that we refuse to avail of such a simple technology.
The spirit of the enemy will work on them to be unsympathetic to us.

None of that is in the bible though. As I said before even if we were physically forced to take the mark this does not mean a thing as all scriptures regarding the mark always include worship of the beast. If you were held down and a mark put upon you or injected in you or whatever...it would mean nothing if you didn't renounce Christ and worship the beast. And satan would know this. The bible simply says those refusing the mark AND worship of the beast will be killed. It does NOT say they will be tortured into taking it.

Also the bible says the mark will be ON the hand or ON the forehead! The chip couldn't possible be the mark as it would be put IN the body...I seriously doubt anyone is going to have it injected in their forehead...a hand possibly...but even the chip doesn't line up with the scriptures.

Revelation 13
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

God bless

Roelof
Sep 12th 2008, 02:57 PM
Rev 13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is manís failure at its worst. Manís worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.

tango
Sep 12th 2008, 04:59 PM
I realize Christians in some parts of the world are tortured and killed or jailed for their beliefs. I would bet though in these times the percentage of these is extremely small and that most Christian have and will die of natural causes, accidents and illnesses. Now the first century Christians were terribly persecuted and many slaughter! A much smaller area in the world and this was possible to do. Back then, yes being a Christian meant almost certain death.

Lets says they forced people to get the mark...which I don't see that in any verse in the bible...but lets say they do. I mean honestly why torture anyone into taking it? Just physically hold them down and inject it...then its done. (first I don't see any government having the man power to go door to door and seeing who does or doesn't have the mark..and people have survived going underground to get food, work, medication..its a big business in fact...its not that hard to hide from the government...not when millions of people are involved. In fact I had a friend that spend most of his life without a social security number and yes he worked, rented homes and got along just fine. He thought the SSN was the mark of the beast so refused to get one! He collected anquites and sold them at auctions and did just find. I have no idea how he got a drivers license without one but he did. ).

Anyway lets say they physically held you down and injected a mark in you which honestly I truly do not see happening. Will that person lose their salvation? That is the big question here and the only one that really matters. No that person would not because every single verse about the mark includes worship of the beast! So even if a person had a mark that was forced upon them...does not mean they renounced their faith in Christ and that alone is what is going to get them killed! So their is no point at all in forcing anyone...through torture or whatever means to take the mark. What's important is the worship of the beast! A person can be covered with forced marks and it won't mean a thing as long as they stay true to Christ. This is why I do not believe...especially since the bible does not say this...that anyone will be tortured into taking the mark. It would be meaningless and satan of all beings would know that. It would be easier and better just to shoot us all in the head and be done with us....and that would actually line up with scriptures much better anyway.



That is true...the fact that it isn't secure won't stop it from being introduced. I just think even without Christians saying this could be the mark of the best, most will not go for having something injected in them. (not too mention the price of it) How many people are scared to death of needles? Alot. I think most people will be very unwilling to actually have something put into their bodies like this. Far too many times we have been told something is medically safe then find out later its not. Even if it could be proved without any doubts these would not get into the blood stream and travel and were totally safe, I just cannot see people flocking to get something injected into them. I think it'll be a very hard sell.

God bless

I figure the mark has to be spiritual and not just physical, otherwise as you say someone could have the mark forcibly applied to them and therefore lose their salvation through nothing more than being physically overpowered.

It would certainly be easier to shoot people than torture them, but that still doesn't explain why Christians in oppressive regimes are tortured rather than simply being shot. We know for a fact that in today's world Christians are tortured rather then being summarily executed so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see us being tortured in the future under the kingdom of the Antichrist. After all, under torture some Christians may relent and worship the beast instead whereas a bullet takes that option away.

I also think an awful lot of people would take an implanted chip if it was the only way they could buy or sell. If the options are to take an implanted chip and face the discomfort, or find yourself unable to buy or sell because you didnt have the chip, I suspect the majority would go for the chip. Throw in government legislation that prevented people from accessing public services (and maybe from being employed) without a chip and sooner or later most people will form an orderly line to be chipped.

moonglow
Sep 13th 2008, 01:12 AM
I figure the mark has to be spiritual and not just physical, otherwise as you say someone could have the mark forcibly applied to them and therefore lose their salvation through nothing more than being physically overpowered.

It would certainly be easier to shoot people than torture them, but that still doesn't explain why Christians in oppressive regimes are tortured rather than simply being shot. We know for a fact that in today's world Christians are tortured rather then being summarily executed so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see us being tortured in the future under the kingdom of the Antichrist. After all, under torture some Christians may relent and worship the beast instead whereas a bullet takes that option away.

I also think an awful lot of people would take an implanted chip if it was the only way they could buy or sell. If the options are to take an implanted chip and face the discomfort, or find yourself unable to buy or sell because you didnt have the chip, I suspect the majority would go for the chip. Throw in government legislation that prevented people from accessing public services (and maybe from being employed) without a chip and sooner or later most people will form an orderly line to be chipped.

I image they are tortured to break them as are told so...to force them to renounce their faith. And I just don't see this in scriptures in regards to getting the mark..it simply says those that refuse are killed.

As far as the other things you mentioned that would only work in first world countries such as ours...it would not work in third world countries where people live off their own live stock, work in fields, barter and so forth. The buy their foods walking down dirt roads with lines up tents. There are no scanners. No bar codes. Those living in the jungles that hunt their own food have never seen money. Recently when they were showing alot about China they showed people walking down the streets to open tents buying seafood...money was used to pay for it as these are temporary set ups..with no scanners.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Only the rich could be forced due to government pressure to get the mark as you described...meanwhile we would have millions of people that wouldn't want or need a chip for two dollars a day...plus no banks, no stores to be scanned in...what about them? They aren't in any system to be pressured like this. Sure many could be tracked down and forced to take it but what would be on their chip? They have no bank accounts...no money..no hospital to see a doctor. It would be meaningless for them. It would be an empty chip! They could save alot of money just putting a tattoo on them actually...

There are 6 billion people in this world and I simply cannot see all of them being forced to worship a beast..it would take more money, more manpower then the whole world has to do this and more then 3 and a half years for sure!

God bless

tango
Sep 13th 2008, 02:40 AM
So what do you believe moonglow? You keep coming back to not agreeing with what I'm seeing when trying to look ahead but say very little about what you think yourself, other than that it would be difficult to chip 6 billion people. Don't forget that huge price tags on useless projects don't stop governments these days :)

Rev 6:8 describes one horseman alone who is given power over a fourth of the earth to kill. That's 1.5bn of the 6bn people removed from the equation before the beast even rises from the sea. The people killed by war, famine, and wild beasts are more likely to be those who currently live in extreme poverty.

Then Rev 9:15 describes the four angels who will kill one third of mankind. We were down to 4.5bn, so one third of those will be another 1.5bn - the earth's population would now be about 3bn.

Rev 9:18 describes three plagues that will kill a third of mankind. This might be a repetition of 9:15, but if it isn't we'll be looking at another 1bn people killed, leaving 2bn or so remaining.

So it won't be necessary to tag 6bn people, more like 2-3bn, many of whom probably will live in more developed countries and will be looking for someone, anyone, to protect them from the developing chaos.

moonglow
Sep 13th 2008, 03:58 PM
So what do you believe moonglow? You keep coming back to not agreeing with what I'm seeing when trying to look ahead but say very little about what you think yourself, other than that it would be difficult to chip 6 billion people. Don't forget that huge price tags on useless projects don't stop governments these days :)

Rev 6:8 describes one horseman alone who is given power over a fourth of the earth to kill. That's 1.5bn of the 6bn people removed from the equation before the beast even rises from the sea. The people killed by war, famine, and wild beasts are more likely to be those who currently live in extreme poverty.

Then Rev 9:15 describes the four angels who will kill one third of mankind. We were down to 4.5bn, so one third of those will be another 1.5bn - the earth's population would now be about 3bn.

Rev 9:18 describes three plagues that will kill a third of mankind. This might be a repetition of 9:15, but if it isn't we'll be looking at another 1bn people killed, leaving 2bn or so remaining.

So it won't be necessary to tag 6bn people, more like 2-3bn, many of whom probably will live in more developed countries and will be looking for someone, anyone, to protect them from the developing chaos.

I am partial preterism...from this point of view the tribulation is in the past and happened during the first century. Of course being partial...that means not all the end time prophecies have been fulfilled yet including the Second Coming of Christ...that obviously has not happened yet. The huge amount of historical evident showing how so many of these events already happened are hard to ignore. God wrath poured out on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. All the believers heeding Christ's warnings to flee the city when they saw it surrounded by the army...Luke 21:20. They escaped and thus fulfilled God's promise they would not suffer His wrath. The great persecute of the Christians by Nero and those following him. Christian then were hunted down...something done much easier and within the realm of possibility back then since the world was much smaller.

Fed to the lions and other wild animals as entertainment. Wrapped in tar, hung on poles and set on fire at dusk to light the way for the Romans...lips sewed closed so they could not scream and distrube those out after dark. New born babies laid at the feet of the statues of Nero to honor him and sacrifice to him...they died of exposure. :cry: People put inside of hollow logs and sawed in half...even Paul writes of this.

It was truly horrific and what Paul is referring too over and over again about the church's persecution in the NT. And John even refers too in Revelation 1:

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe Revelation was written before 70 A.D. Seeing as being an earlier writing also shows how it all falls into place. Those seven churches at that time really did exist and were really written for them! John could not directly name the beast as it would have cost him his life. Back then both greek and Hebrew lined up with numbers. A person could use numbers alone to write a complete sentence which could be read by those knowing that language. The Roman's though couldn't read that way and so the number of the beast meant nothing to them. Nero was the beast and fits the description of the beast. His name adds up in Hebrew to 666 and in greek to 616 as we see some bible's use. Its called gematria (you probably already know this...just mentioning it for those that don't)

Daniel 11

Verse 37
Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.

Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death, had his own mother killed and 'married' a slave boy. He declared himself a god and demanded to be treated as such.

markdrums did an excellent post one time explaining the mark of the beast:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1567800&postcount=71

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/kgbr/kgbr.html
The Beast of Revelation
by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr 1989

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024) on Matthew 24 show how the scriptures in this chapter were fulfilled in 70 AD using the historical evidence recorded at that time by Josephus a Jewish historian who witnessed it all.

The Wars Of The Jews
Or
The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-7.htm)

I was raised as a pre-trib rapture believer and constantly watched the news for things that would mean the start of the tribulation and the beast and the mark and all of that. Over and over again hearing from preachers and other leaders that this was it! And to be ready...then it didn't happen over and over again but still I believed this was the end time view. I had no idea this idea was actually fairly new (which yes I know all the arguments on that) but truly only introduced in the 1900's. I really had no idea there were even other end time views at all until I came to this board and people started poking holes in it finally forcing me to take a closer look at this view. And to explore other views. This view of partial preterism fits more out of all of the others and has strong historical evidence which as I said before, cannot be ignored. What the first century Christians went through was horrific! It was only by God's grace they survived at all to continue on in our faith.

Its fine to not agree with my view...won't hurt my feelings any. It was very hard for me to get out of the mind frame of pre-trib rapture...very, very hard. It wasn't easy for me to reject this idea and even consider others at all...so I don't post this stuff lightly and many times am attacked for having this view...so I don't readily just throw it out there even though there are others on here with the same end time views. There is alot left to happen...the release of satan from the pit (yes I believe he is bound already...bound only in stopping the spread of the gospel...not bound obviously from harassing us)...what happens when he is released, I don't know..I image then it will be very, very bad...thankfully the bible says he will only be released for a short period of time..at that point the nations will be deceived again and the gospel message cannot be spread any further. Time is up..

God bless

tango
Sep 14th 2008, 12:53 AM
OK, although I'm inclined to disagree with the partial preterist view I'm not going to attack you over it :)

I'm inclined to think that what the first century Church went through was definitely a tribulation but not the great tribulation. I think I've got Adam Clarke's commentaries on e-sword on my laptop, if so I'll certainly take a read over the Matthew 24 section. When I see all these things happening around me that could so easily become global in scope, it leaves me thinking the worst is yet to come.

I'll leave it at that, otherwise we risk derailing the thread. Once I've had chance to read a little more I may post some questions in another thread.

Joe King
Sep 15th 2008, 05:16 AM
It doesn't matter if the article is true or not. The technology is here already.

moonglow
Sep 15th 2008, 02:34 PM
OK, although I'm inclined to disagree with the partial preterist view I'm not going to attack you over it :)

I'm inclined to think that what the first century Church went through was definitely a tribulation but not the great tribulation. I think I've got Adam Clarke's commentaries on e-sword on my laptop, if so I'll certainly take a read over the Matthew 24 section. When I see all these things happening around me that could so easily become global in scope, it leaves me thinking the worst is yet to come.

I'll leave it at that, otherwise we risk derailing the thread. Once I've had chance to read a little more I may post some questions in another thread.

Ok...sounds good. Oh I never meant to suggest you would attack me over that view...I know you better then that! But others have...but people get pretty passionate about their views on this forum...I won't say I have always been an angel on here by any means myself!

God bless

moonglow
Sep 15th 2008, 02:36 PM
It doesn't matter if the article is true or not. The technology is here already.

My objection was the article was misleading...very. People have enough to worry about these days without worrying about something that has not been implemented yet.

God bless

White Spider
Sep 15th 2008, 08:46 PM
Well I as a future-tribulationist as I now call myself believe this is just one of many technologies leading to everyone being chipped, likely first by choice as even I can see the benefits of it . . . and unless you are slightly paranoid about the tribulation most people, including non-paranoid christians, will likely get it. I think after that, and only after, will it be forced on the remainder of the population. Most will think me and anyone else not taking it are criminals. I think there's a verse in the Bible that even says something like, unless you mean to be a criminal why shouldn't you follow the government, it's there t help. Course that's totally mis-worded, but that's the idea of the verse. I feel many Christian's will be able to talk themselves into it and find themselves mislead into accepting the mark at first. Hopefully when it comes to outright worship of the beast they get rid of it, but between life and death, only the strongest in faith will deny the mark.

Put your full-hearted trust in Christ. 200% belief and more . . . if it isn't the mark, oh well, at least I know I'll have my salvation. If God laughs at my paranoia I'm ok with that, I just don't want Satan smiling at me . . .