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immortality
Sep 11th 2008, 03:31 AM
i believe scripture is quite clear that satan and god alike claim each of their own with a spiritual mark.

mark of satan:

"He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a mark on their right hand or on their forehead." (revelation 13:16)

"Then I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and his image and the number of his name." (revelation 15:2)

mark of god:

"Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub where it had rested to the threshold of the temple. He called to the man dressed in linen who had the writing kit at his side. The Lord said to him, “Go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of the people who moan and groan over all the abominations practiced in it.” (ezekiel 9:3-4)

"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He shouted out with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given permission to damage the earth and the sea: “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel..." (revelation 7:2-5)

"Then out of the smoke came locusts onto the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth, or any green plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their forehead." (revelation 9:3-4)

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life – water as clear as crystal – pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city’s main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations. And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him, and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads." (revelation 22:1-4)

surely, god has never, nor will ever force his believers to receive a physical implant/mark in order to convey to others that they belong to him. likewise, satan will not force people to receive a physical mark. this would also thwart his plan of deception, as this process would be too obvious.

i also think it could prove to be detrimental to believe satan's mark will be a physical one, being forcibly administered in a public scenario (as commonly depicted). this undoubtedly has caused some individuals to attempt to evaluate their current place in the end-time calendar, therefore perhaps causing spiritual lukewarmness (for example, "oh, we haven't been forced to receive the mark of the beast yet, so christ's return must be further down the road").

therefore, this is why i believe this common portrayal of the "mark of the beast", as depicted in mainstream christian media, might very well be a deception straight from satan himself. perhaps satan does not want humanity to realize that they already have his mark.

i believe further proof that humanity has, is, and will continue to receive the mark of the beast up until the second coming, is derived from the following scripture:

"There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (revelation 14:11)

when i look at my home country, for example, i cannot help but notice the "restlessness" in the individuals that reside in it. people are so busy with their day-to-day grind that they simply do not have rest - physically, emotionally or spiritually. this does not surprise me however, because i believe the united states is the most ungodly nation on the planet. due to the fact that most of its citizens are not saved, consequently partakers of the mark of the beast, they therefore do not have no rest.

another important subject is that of physical sleep.

"He grants sleep to those he loves." (psalm 127:2)

charles spurgeon calls this the "peculiar sleep of the beloved (http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0012.htm)". apparently, god is pleased to grant true believers a peculiar and precious physical rest.

i have noticed that "sleep aide" commercials are quite prevalent on television in america. if indeed america is the ungodly nation that it is, then perhaps there is literally "no rest for the wicked".

Josie
Sep 11th 2008, 03:44 AM
Really interesting post, I did have to strain to read the small print but I may agree with all of your thoughts here. :)

Slug1
Sep 11th 2008, 03:48 AM
I changed the text size for everyone to read it easier.

immortality
Sep 11th 2008, 03:48 AM
thanks josie. this is something god has revealed to me recently.

i have always thought the common depictions of the "mark of the beast" were quite exaggerated. likewise, i believe christian media has sensationalized the process of the rapture. the catching away of true believers into the heavens will most likely not be executed in the dramatic fashion that has been often portrayed (but this is a discussion for another time ;)).

and thanks slug for changing the size, i appreciate it.

Kahtar
Sep 11th 2008, 04:26 AM
surely, god has never, nor will ever force his believers to receive a physical implant/mark in order to convey to others that they belong to him.

Genesis 17:10-14 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (11) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. (12) And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. (13) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (14) And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Circumcision was not only a sign between God and the children of Israel. It was a sign everyone else as well.
Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

God certainly gave Cain a mark, for others to see, but not because Cain was a believer.

But, I DO agree that the mark in Revelation is a spiritual mark. I rather suspect, however, it will be both.

wpm
Sep 11th 2008, 05:50 AM
i believe scripture is quite clear that satan and god alike claim each of their own with a spiritual mark.

mark of satan:

"He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a mark on their right hand or on their forehead." (revelation 13:16)

"Then I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and his image and the number of his name." (revelation 15:2)

mark of god:

"Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub where it had rested to the threshold of the temple. He called to the man dressed in linen who had the writing kit at his side. The Lord said to him, “Go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of the people who moan and groan over all the abominations practiced in it.” (ezekiel 9:3-4)

"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He shouted out with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given permission to damage the earth and the sea: “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel..." (revelation 7:2-5)

"Then out of the smoke came locusts onto the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth, or any green plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their forehead." (revelation 9:3-4)

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life – water as clear as crystal – pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city’s main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations. And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him, and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads." (revelation 22:1-4)

surely, god has never, nor will ever force his believers to receive a physical implant/mark in order to convey to others that they belong to him. likewise, satan will not force people to receive a physical mark. this would also thwart his plan of deception, as this process would be too obvious.

i also think it could prove to be detrimental to believe satan's mark will be a physical one, being forcibly administered in a public scenario (as commonly depicted). this undoubtedly has caused some individuals to attempt to evaluate their current place in the end-time calendar, therefore perhaps causing spiritual lukewarmness (for example, "oh, we haven't been forced to receive the mark of the beast yet, so christ's return must be further down the road").

therefore, this is why i believe this common portrayal of the "mark of the beast", as depicted in mainstream christian media, might very well be a deception straight from satan himself. perhaps satan does not want humanity to realize that they already have his mark.

i believe further proof that humanity has, is, and will continue to receive the mark of the beast up until the second coming, is derived from the following scripture:

"There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (revelation 14:11)

when i look at my home country, for example, i cannot help but notice the "restlessness" in the individuals that reside in it. people are so busy with their day-to-day grind that they simply do not have rest - physically, emotionally or spiritually. this does not surprise me however, because i believe the united states is the most ungodly nation on the planet. due to the fact that most of its citizens are not saved, consequently partakers of the mark of the beast, they therefore do not have no rest.

another important subject is that of physical sleep.

"He grants sleep to those he loves." (psalm 127:2)

charles spurgeon calls this the "peculiar sleep of the beloved (http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0012.htm)". apparently, god is pleased to grant true believers a peculiar and precious physical rest.

i have noticed that "sleep aide" commercials are quite prevalent on television in america. if indeed america is the ungodly nation that it is, then perhaps there is literally "no rest for the wicked".




Good research. Thanks. :) I also have come to that conclusion after previously looking for a literal chip yrs ago.

Paul

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 06:31 AM
I have thought for quite some time that those of us who are looking for some sort of embedded computer chip are carrying the Mark too far. However, one key difference between the sealing of the Holy Spirit and the Beast's Mark is that the Mark is said to be possible on the right hand. That is something that is never mentioned in conjunction with the Holy Spirit's sealing. That suggests to me that the best the Beast can do to counterfeit the Holy Spirit's sealing is with a physical mark, as opposed to the Holy Spirit's spiritual mark. After all, the right hand is a specific location.

But even more importantly and more directly to the point, how would the world's merchants be able to refuse to buy or sell anything with a person without the Mark if it's only spiritual? They would be unable to see if the person in question has the Mark or not. That alone necessitates a physical aspect to the Mark.

jeffweeder
Sep 11th 2008, 06:51 AM
Those that have the mark of the beast are those who have not washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
Unforgiven sin has the same consequences as having the mark.
If we reject the gospel, the mark will remain.

pinkroses
Sep 11th 2008, 08:19 AM
When I read this chapter in the book of Revelation, I take it as a literal mark because of the "that no man may buy or sell unless he has the mark of the beast". This is my feeling anyway. God bless all.

Roelof
Sep 11th 2008, 11:36 AM
The spiritual mark is man's worship of the Antichrist (Satan)
The physical mark will be electronic or biogenetical.

ross3421
Sep 11th 2008, 12:18 PM
When I read this chapter in the book of Revelation, I take it as a literal mark because of the "that no man may buy or sell unless he has the mark of the beast". This is my feeling anyway. God bless all.


Could there not be a time whereby all those on the earth have the mark? Meaning those "remaining" were the fullfillment thereof......

ross3421
Sep 11th 2008, 12:26 PM
After all, the right hand is a specific location.

A thought here....... could the right hand signify the church and those which live inside the city and the forehead Israel? Interesting that when you go to a ball game you are stamped on the right hand for going to and fro.......



But even more importantly and more directly to the point, how would the world's merchants be able to refuse to buy or sell anything with a person without the Mark if it's only spiritual? They would be unable to see if the person in question has the Mark or not. That alone necessitates a physical aspect to the Mark.

Who says they refuse anyone..........Those without the mark are killed so it would be hard for them to refuse these individuals. Also if they came across someone without a mark they would probably deliver them up to death and not refuse to sell thier goods and move onward.


Mark

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 03:14 PM
Or it could be a physical mark that represents a spiritual mark, like the government is wanting to do with the National ID making us all have to have that.. and that is the forerunner of the Mark of the Beast, i seen a picture of it... and it was about the size of pen head on a pen, and they inject it in your wrist, which back then the wrist was considered your hand because that is where they nailed Jesus Christ at because if they nailed him through the palm the nail would rip out.. so the wrist was considered the hand... also it says in the forehead, which the other one i have not seen but i can imagine it be injected in the eye, or maybe contact lens or some sort... After i read about that, it sounded awful familiar to what was written in the Revelation, John 2000 years ago just about, received a vision about this... Its coming to life...

Without the National ID card, we will not be able to by or sell, which is the forerunner of the Mark of the Beast, this is what I think... I think the National ID card will phase out because its one card with all your information on it... and they inject that chip inside you they don't have to check to see if you had the card they can just run you through the scanner and that will pick up that chip inside of you, and you don't have to worry about anybody stealing your National ID card because it will be in your flesh.... So once the National ID card takes place, maybe a few years later they will want to use the Mark of the Beast because they would think it is more useful and a better idea.. which it isn't

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 03:57 PM
A thought here....... could the right hand signify the church and those which live inside the city and the forehead Israel?The Bible offers nothing to support that.
Interesting that when you go to a ball game you are stamped on the right hand for going to and fro.......I wouldn't make too much of that. Besides, the last time I went, I was stamped on my left hand.
Who says they refuse anyoneJohn says it in Revelation 13:17 - "They could not buy or sell unless they had the mark."
Those without the mark are killed so it would be hard for them to refuse these individuals.It's all part of the package.
Also if they came across someone without a mark they would probably deliver them up to death and not refuse to sell thier goods and move onward.That's speculation - we can only go with what the Bible says.

Timshel
Sep 11th 2008, 04:12 PM
Or it could be a physical mark that represents a spiritual mark, like the government is wanting to do with the National ID making us all have to have that.. and that is the forerunner of the Mark of the Beast, i seen a picture of it... and it was about the size of pen head on a pen, and they inject it in your wrist, which back then the wrist was considered your hand because that is where they nailed Jesus Christ at because if they nailed him through the palm the nail would rip out.. so the wrist was considered the hand... also it says in the forehead, which the other one i have not seen but i can imagine it be injected in the eye, or maybe contact lens or some sort... After i read about that, it sounded awful familiar to what was written in the Revelation, John 2000 years ago just about, received a vision about this... Its coming to life...

Without the National ID card, we will not be able to by or sell, which is the forerunner of the Mark of the Beast, this is what I think... I think the National ID card will phase out because its one card with all your information on it... and they inject that chip inside you they don't have to check to see if you had the card they can just run you through the scanner and that will pick up that chip inside of you, and you don't have to worry about anybody stealing your National ID card because it will be in your flesh.... So once the National ID card takes place, maybe a few years later they will want to use the Mark of the Beast because they would think it is more useful and a better idea.. which it isn't

I agree with you my friend. One channel in our country shows the advances of science in Japan. There is one particular technology where you don't have to bring multiple e-cards for your daily routines. It can be your company ID, your subway ticket, your credit card, and your main ID. This is already being practiced in some of their cities. What alarmed me is when the chips implanted on pets with the owner's information is the size of a grain of rice. I sometimes think too much, but what if it will be integrated and adapted for us? When will we start to see it as a norm to have this on humans? Only time will tell.

With the advent on terrorism and need for more security that is convenient for faster transactions, perhaps DNA information will be integrated to that embedded chip as well. Faster security checks on airports. Very enticing for the scared population who have to contend with "irritating" security checks.

I believe it will be a physical mark.

moonglow
Sep 11th 2008, 04:37 PM
immortality: when i look at my home country, for example, i cannot help but notice the "restlessness" in the individuals that reside in it. people are so busy with their day-to-day grind that they simply do not have rest - physically, emotionally or spiritually. this does not surprise me however, because i believe the united states is the most ungodly nation on the planet. due to the fact that most of its citizens are not saved, consequently partakers of the mark of the beast, they therefore do not have no rest.

another important subject is that of physical sleep.

"He grants sleep to those he loves." (psalm 127:2)

charles spurgeon calls this the "peculiar sleep of the beloved". apparently, god is pleased to grant true believers a peculiar and precious physical rest.

i have noticed that "sleep aide" commercials are quite prevalent on television in america. if indeed america is the ungodly nation that it is, then perhaps there is literally "no rest for the wicked".

I know the topic is whether the mark of the beast is literal or not but this part of your post greatly disturbs me. First of all there is no way American can be the most ungodly nation on the earth because there are nations with NO Christians at all! (or rather the few they are hiding under ground so they won't be arrested and killed). I mean seriously...what about the Islamic nations or the hindu nations? yet you have America as the most ungodly? That just doesn't make sense.

Second, that verse about God giving His faithful sleep is taken out of content. We have for instance many on here with serious health issues that don't sleep well due to being in physical pain or other problems. Your post is saying they aren't believers simply because they don't sleep well and that is way, way out of content.

Psalm 127
A Song of Ascents. Of Solomon.
1 Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early,
To sit up late,
To eat the bread of sorrows;
For so He gives His beloved sleep.

Adam Clark's bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ps&chapter=127)
Verse 2. It is vain for you to rise up early
There seems to be here an allusion to the daily and nightly watches which Nehemiah instituted. The people are worn out with constant labour and watching; he therefore divided them in such a manner, that they who had worked in the day should rest by night, and that they who worked by night should rest in the day; and thus his beloved, a title of the Jews, the beloved of God, got sleep, due refreshment, and rest. As for Nehemiah and his servants, they never put off their clothes day or night but for washing.
***************************

God bless

ross3421
Sep 11th 2008, 07:35 PM
The Bible offers nothing to support that.I

We know the 144,000 (Israel) are marked in thier foreheads........

Re 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

So what or who could possibly be marked in thier right hand? The church.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hey, I have not heard anyone have a better explanation. That includes you.


John says it in Revelation 13:17 - "They could not buy or sell unless they had the mark.

Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This does not mean there are those walking around not able to buy. It is just highlighting the fact that without the mark you cannot buy sell ect...As in the previous verse we know that all do not receive the mark

Re 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Clearly those without the mark are killed as is the case when Christ returns. In his kingdom we will not have those without the mark of God mingling with those that do........

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


That's speculation - we can only go with what the Bible says.

Mt 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mark

Partaker of Christ
Sep 11th 2008, 10:32 PM
I certainly believe that it will be a physical mark. Just because God is able to give a spiritual mark upon a person, this does not mean that Satan has this same power. I think some people give Satan far too much power.

EarlyCall
Sep 11th 2008, 10:59 PM
The mark won't need to be forced on people.

It seems odd to me how some think the mark will be spiritual and yet it ties directly in with buying and selling which are not spiritual.

Man implements in the physical.

So you walk into the store to buy something and the cashier somehow knows you are spiritually marked by sat*n and can therefore make the purchase?

I have trouble buying that.

The mark will be coerced upon people simply out of necessity. Food? Gas to get you to the store, to work? Medicine? Dentist for that abscessed tooth? Emergency room to stop that bleeding or mend the broken bone?

No, not if you do not have the mark.

Again, man implements in the physical and the buying and selling, two things you cannot do without the mark are not spiritual but physical.

Ever walk by a demon-possessed person and you knew they were? Really? Just somehow knew did you? Ever talk to a witch at work or school and you just somehow knew they were a witch? Really?

And yet somehow sinful people will just know you have taken the spiritual mark of the beast and can therefore make the purchase at the grocery store.

Well, they do not have that ability now, so how is it they come upon it?

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 11:34 PM
Well guys get ready to get your crossbows and bows out.. it looks like we are going hunt for our own food..

we won't be living in society if you think about it.. we can not buy or sell so no need for vehicles, groceries, appliances...

Roelof
Sep 12th 2008, 03:42 AM
I agree with you my friend. One channel in our country shows the advances of science in Japan. There is one particular technology where you don't have to bring multiple e-cards for your daily routines.

Timshel

Any links please?

I believe in a physical electronic mark by the the world rulers of the Ten Regions. It will combine your ID, financial and medical info.

Within +- 3 years world-wide chipping or tagging will begin.

Are we as Christians ready to refuse the mark?

Literalist-Luke
Sep 12th 2008, 05:11 AM
We know the 144,000 (Israel) are marked in thier foreheads.

Re 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.Nothing there about the right hand.
So what or who could possibly be marked in thier right hand? The church.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.There is nothing said here about Jesus being marked on his right hand. (Or, it you're going to bring up the nail hole, then you have to also talk about the left hand as well.) The idea of the Church having a mark on the right hand is not supported in the Bible.
Hey, I have not heard anyone have a better explanation. That includes you.I'm not pretending to have one either. I have stated before, in another thread, and I'll state it again that this is a passage for which we are probably going to have to wait for the fulfillment to fully understand it. To attempt to inject various interpretations in our effort to fill in the gaps is irresponsible handling of the Scriptures. We're going to have to be patient.
Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This does not mean there are those walking around not able to buy.It sure sounds like it does to me.
It is just highlighting the fact that without the mark you cannot buy sell ectSee, you just said it yourself.
As in the previous verse we know that all do not receive the mark

Re 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Clearly those without the mark are killed as is the case when Christ returns.There are people alive at the 2nd Coming who do not have the Mark. Not everyone without the Mark will be executed. Some will escape.
In his kingdom we will not have those without the mark of God mingling with those that do........That's true, but that doesn't mean there won't be a lot of people in hiding.

Timshel
Sep 12th 2008, 05:50 AM
Timshel

Any links please?

I believe in a physical electronic mark by the the world rulers of the Ten Regions. It will combine your ID, financial and medical info.

Within +- 3 years world-wide chipping or tagging will begin.

Are we as Christians ready to refuse the mark?

Here it is from Wikipedia, apparently it's called Osaifu-Keitai:

Osaifu-Keitai services include electronic money, identity card, loyalty card, fare collection of public transits (including railways, buses, and airplanes), or credit card.
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai)

ross3421
Sep 12th 2008, 10:51 AM
There are people alive at the 2nd Coming who do not have the Mark. Not everyone without the Mark will be executed. Some will escape.

Scripture states the opposite.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Roelof
Sep 12th 2008, 03:36 PM
Here it is from Wikipedia, apparently it's called Osaifu-Keitai:

Osaifu-Keitai services include electronic money, identity card, loyalty card, fare collection of public transits (including railways, buses, and airplanes), or credit card.
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai)

Timshel

This is great news !!!

Osaifu-Keitai is the perfect fore-runner for the real mark of the beast. If they install it on a biochip and implant it, you have a perfect electronic tag or marking !!!

This support my personal view that the technology would be ready to start world-wide marking by 2011/12, which I regard could be the beginning of the final Tribulation.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 12th 2008, 05:08 PM
Scripture states the opposite.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.Then who are these people?

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Most Pre-tribbers would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do pre-tribbers wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium? I didn’t think so.

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors? We know that Jesus is going to destroy the ones with the Mark at the 2nd Coming, so who are these people?

moonglow
Sep 12th 2008, 05:35 PM
Timshel

Any links please?

I believe in a physical electronic mark by the the world rulers of the Ten Regions. It will combine your ID, financial and medical info.

Within +- 3 years world-wide chipping or tagging will begin.

Are we as Christians ready to refuse the mark?

why refuse a chip on spiritual grounds? The bible says the mark is ON the hand or forehead...nothing said about not getting a chip injected under the skin. Unless this chip involves worshiping the beast there is nothing to worry about as every single scriptures shows both go together..the mark plus worshiping the beast...its never the mark alone. I think there are alot of reasons to refuse it on medical grounds...but not on spiritual grounds.

God bless

John146
Sep 12th 2008, 06:19 PM
I have thought for quite some time that those of us who are looking for some sort of embedded computer chip are carrying the Mark too far. However, one key difference between the sealing of the Holy Spirit and the Beast's Mark is that the Mark is said to be possible on the right hand. That is something that is never mentioned in conjunction with the Holy Spirit's sealing. That suggests to me that the best the Beast can do to counterfeit the Holy Spirit's sealing is with a physical mark, as opposed to the Holy Spirit's spiritual mark. After all, the right hand is a specific location.

But even more importantly and more directly to the point, how would the world's merchants be able to refuse to buy or sell anything with a person without the Mark if it's only spiritual? They would be unable to see if the person in question has the Mark or not. That alone necessitates a physical aspect to the Mark.Here's the problem with that view, as I see it.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

These verses show that everyone in the world whose names are not written in the book of life receive the mark of the beast. I don't see it as being reasonable at all that every unbeliever in the world could be forced to have a physical mark.

I believe the right hand figuratively represents one's actions while the forehead figuratively represents one's thoughts and beliefs. If someone worships Satan (Rev 13:4) and the beast that means their allegiance is with Satan and the beast and this results in them having the mark of the beast. Believers, on the other hand, have the seal of God as evidenced by the presence of the Spirit within us. Our beliefs and actions show that. I believe someone having the mark of the beast has to do with someone being of the world and giving their allegiance to the prince of this world and the ways of the world rather than to God.

John 15
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Regarding your point about the buying and selling, where does it say it's speaking about the buying and selling of physical merchandise? Could it not be speaking of buying and selling one's beliefs or something similar? The terms buy and sell are used in a figurative sense elsewhere in scripture, such as Proverbs 23:23 and Matthew 25:9-10.

Eric

John146
Sep 12th 2008, 06:25 PM
The mark won't need to be forced on people.

It seems odd to me how some think the mark will be spiritual and yet it ties directly in with buying and selling which are not spiritual.I'm not saying these verses relate directly to Rev 13:17, but my point is to show you that buying and selling can be spiritual:

Matthew 25
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Proverbs 23:23
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

ross3421
Sep 12th 2008, 07:08 PM
Then who are these people?

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Most Pre-tribbers would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do pre-tribbers wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium? I didn’t think so.

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors? We know that Jesus is going to destroy the ones with the Mark at the 2nd Coming, so who are these people?

The 144,000 of Israel which will be the ONLY individuals which will be protected as scripture states. All others on the earth at this time will have to chose with those not accepting the mark being killed.

DeafPosttrib
Sep 12th 2008, 07:34 PM
I would like to say something about Mark of Revelation 13.

Many amills saying the mark of the beast is spiritually.

I am amill. I believe the mark of the beast should be balace both with spiritual and physical both go together as merge.

EarlyCall said, the mark won't need to force on people.

Well. Otherwise, Rev. 13:5 tells us, he shall be given to have power for 42 months. I believe this is a future event, not just throughout history of Church Period. I believe 42 months is a literal future temporary period, not just as symbolically time. I believe it will be a literal future short period as "little season" of Rev. 20:3.

Also, in Rev. 13:7 says, "And it was given unto him to MAKE WAR with saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

This verse seem cannot be always spiritual. Of course, Satan have been battle with Church for many centuries, which speak of spiritual warfares. But, I believe Satan uses agents like, soldiers, Police, to persecute Christians. For example, Early Christians were persecuted and killed by Rome, by eaten from wild beasts at Colosseum. Even, during 'Spanish Inquistion Era', Catholics persecuted Jews and Christians(Proestants(mostly Baptists), millions were killed. These cannot always spiritual, these were clearly physical.

EarlyCall says, the mark cannot force on people.

I disagree.

Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

This verse is very clearly loud enough that, these are physical, not spiritual.

Then, look at Rev. 13:12 says, And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and CAUSETH the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

I believe the word, 'causeth' could mean to force all people to worship him.

Look at Rev. 13:15 says, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as MANY as would not not worship the image of the beast should be KILLED."

This is very clear speak of physical persecutions. This verse telling us, if anyone who refuse to worship the beast, MUST PUT TO DEATH. That is force.

Yes, I believe that, we all are required to have the mark of the beast either in our foreheads or in right hands, if we refuse to have it, MUST PUT TO DEATH. That is clear physical persecution.

What about Rev. 20:4?

Amills intepreting this verse tells us, throughout centuirs of Church history, many Christians who refuse compromising with worldly things or invlove with Babylon system, many of them were killed by persecutions for refuse to worship the world system, such as they have refused to worship Popes during Spanish Inquistion Era. Many of Christians' souls are now in heaven, reigning with Christ for almost 2000 years already. So, Amills believe Rev. 20:4 is already now happening since Early Church to present day.

They are right. I do agree with them.

Rev. 20:4 is spiritually meaning.

But, for me, I believe we should balance with spiritual and physical. Because, this verse is clearly picture as persecutions against Church. These are physical. I understand this verse is clearly picture of conditional salvation that means, we refuse compromsing with world, if we overcome them at our death(Rev. 2:10), then we shall reign with Christ - eternal life. Or, if we compromising with world in our life till death, then we CANNOT reign with Christ, instead we would be end up in everlasting fire- lake of fire accroding Rev. 14:9-11.

For me, I believe Rev. 20:4 is already happening long time ago since Early Church to present. Also, I believe Rev. 20:4 is continue happening right now and also future too till Second Advent.

We should remember that, the history of Early Church, there were many terrible persecutions against Christians, it was bloodshed. Today, in America, we do not see any serious persecutions in our Country, because our country is freedom.

BUT. When Satan"Antichrist" revealed and He shall cause all people in America to be force to have the mark. There will be terrible persecutions upon Christians in America soon. The freedom will be gone in America forever when Satan shall be revealed.

For me, I believe mark of the beast will be imput into human's skin either forehead or right hand, these will be literal and physical. Because of I.D., Security, and Economy purposes. Right now, we are seeing deep technology stuffs in America. Possible for mark to be imput into human skins. Many people are already have chips in their skin long time ago.

But, the law is not yet exist or pass. But, when Satan revealed, he will cause laws to be changed.

I fear that Barack Osama would be the next dangerous President. Because he is Muslim. We know that Muslims hate Christians. Muslims want to killed Christians mamy as they can. I believe he will cause laws to be changed, and we will all be require to have chips in our skin for I.D. purpose relates with economy situation.

YES, I believe 'amrk of the beast' is balance merge with both spiritual and physical. That means, IF we accept the mark, then our souls would be spend in lake of fire forever and ever - Rev. 14:9-11, which speak of spiritual salvation issue.

Satan knows that right now, MANY Christians who aware of Revelation chapter 13 about the mark, that they claim that will strongly refuse receive it. BUT, Satan will have something with powerful weapons to use Police or soldiers to FORCE Christians to receive it, or to kill them. These will be a BIG TEST upon our faith, see if we are brave enough to die for Christ's sake, or if we do not brave enought o die, but rather to stay alive to have it then we will be end up in lake of fire according to Matt. 10:28.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

IPet2_9
Sep 12th 2008, 08:00 PM
The 144,000 of Israel which will be the ONLY individuals which will be protected as scripture states. All others on the earth at this time will have to chose with those not accepting the mark being killed.

The way I read it, it's possible the 144,000 are already dead. John saw the 144,000 *standing on Mount Zion*. Now, there's no way you can get 144,000 on Mount Zion. They would have to do quite an impressive human pyramid. It has to be the heavenly Mount Zion, in the New Jerusalem.

John146
Sep 12th 2008, 08:08 PM
EarlyCall says, the mark cannot force on people.

I disagree.

Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

This verse is very clearly loud enough that, these are physical, not spiritual.

Then, look at Rev. 13:12 says, And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and CAUSETH the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

I believe the word, 'causeth' could mean to force all people to worship him.

Look at Rev. 13:15 says, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as MANY as would not not worship the image of the beast should be KILLED."

This is very clear speak of physical persecutions. This verse telling us, if anyone who refuse to worship the beast, MUST PUT TO DEATH. That is force.

Yes, I believe that, we all are required to have the mark of the beast either in our foreheads or in right hands, if we refuse to have it, MUST PUT TO DEATH. That is clear physical persecution. I respect your opinions, Phil, but I can't agree here. I believe the second beast/false prophet deceives the world and it is the deception that results in causing the people to worship the first beast. If the second beast/false prophet is forcing things upon these people then why does it talk so much about the second beast/false prophet deceiving people? No deception would be necessary if "he" was just going to force everyone to do what "he" wanted, anyway. The Greek word for 'causeth' and 'cause' in those verses is poieō (Strong's 4160). It is used 579 times in the KJV and not once is that word used to mean to force someone to do something.

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 579
AV (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4160&t=kjv#) — do (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=do*+G4160) 357, make (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20make*+G4160) 113, bring forth (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20bring%20forth*+G4160) 14, commit (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20commit*+G4160) 9, cause (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20cause*+G4160) 9, work (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20work*+G4160) 8, show (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20show*+G4160) 5, bear (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20bear*+G4160) 4, keep (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20keep*+G4160) 4, fulfil (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20fulfil*+G4160) 3, deal (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20deal*+G4160) 2, perform (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20perform*+G4160) 2, not tr (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20not%20tr*+G4160) 3, misc (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20misc*+G4160) 43, vr do (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=%20vr%20do*+G4160) 3

Outline of Biblical Usage


1) to make
a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
b) to be the authors of, the cause
c) to make ready, to prepare
d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
f) to make a thing out of something
g) to (make i.e.) render one anything
1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out
i) to make one do something
1) cause one to
j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2) to do
a) to act rightly, do well
1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one
1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
d) to celebrate, keep
1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise

John146
Sep 12th 2008, 08:12 PM
The way I read it, it's possible the 144,000 are already dead. John saw the 144,000 *standing on Mount Zion*. Now, there's no way you can get 144,000 on Mount Zion. They would have to do quite an impressive human pyramid. It has to be the heavenly Mount Zion, in the New Jerusalem.I agree. It's a heavenly scene that is portrayed.

Rev 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

John hears a voice from heaven. The 144,000 are depicted as singing a new song before the throne of God. Where is that? In heaven. These 144,000 were "redeemed from the earth". Redeemed from the earth to where? Heaven.

Hebrews 12
18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

cwb
Sep 12th 2008, 08:33 PM
Here's the problem with that view, as I see it.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

These verses show that everyone in the world whose names are not written in the book of life receive the mark of the beast. I don't see it as being reasonable at all that every unbeliever in the world could be forced to have a physical mark.

I believe the right hand figuratively represents one's actions while the forehead figuratively represents one's thoughts and beliefs. If someone worships Satan (Rev 13:4) and the beast that means their allegiance is with Satan and the beast and this results in them having the mark of the beast. Believers, on the other hand, have the seal of God as evidenced by the presence of the Spirit within us. Our beliefs and actions show that. I believe someone having the mark of the beast has to do with someone being of the world and giving their allegiance to the prince of this world and the ways of the world rather than to God.

John 15
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Regarding your point about the buying and selling, where does it say it's speaking about the buying and selling of physical merchandise? Could it not be speaking of buying and selling one's beliefs or something similar? The terms buy and sell are used in a figurative sense elsewhere in scripture, such as Proverbs 23:23 and Matthew 25:9-10.

Eric

Could you then clarify what the verse in Revelation 13 is saying if it is talking about buying and selling beliefs? What does it mean to say that no can buy or sell (his beliefs) unless he has the mark of the beast?

DeafPosttrib
Sep 12th 2008, 08:58 PM
John146,

I still do not agree with you.

"Causeth" is something that could leading people to be deceived and also to force them in authority ways.

In Dan. 7:25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand unti a time and times and the dividing of time."

This is clearly speak of his power with authority to cause times and laws to be changed. These are kind of force.

Why there will be great numbers of Christians killed? Because of refuse to accept the mark of the beast. That is kind of force.

For example, when a Christian is being thrown in jail, and the persecutor is being to tormenting Christian for being to confess or admit into something, while Christian is still stubborn, the perscutor would continue torturing Christians by being beaten with rod or turn the swtich with electric chair with bands around Christian's arm, to force Christian for bein got give up belief and accept it. Till finally a Christian being give up and to accept it, then torturing will halt immediate, and let Christian live.

Make sense?

Same with Matt. 10:28 tells us, that we do not fear anyone who will kill us, because they have no power to take our soul, but rather fear God have the power to kill both our soul and body. This is speaking of being facing persecution with big test.

Yes, I strong believe the mark of beast will be being effect into new law to force all people to have it like as I.D.

The purpose of having mark, to prevent from I.D. Thefts, and to helping economy to be boost.

If a person without have mark, shall be starving to death without eat food.

We all have flesh, easy for us being hungry need food to eating to make us satisfy.

Without have mark, it would easy tempting us being straving and so hungry without eating for long time, would easily want to eat to make them satisfy and feeling better, that why they need mark.

That is kind of tempting and also force too.

For me, I do strong believe every Christians will face BIG TEST when Satan shall be revealed for a little season. MANY Christians will be killed for not have the mark. I am sure that some Christians would feel of fear to facing death and suffering, so, they rather to stay alive by accept the mark. So, their faith will FAIL the BIG TEST.

These are the big issue of salvation according Rev. 14:9-11.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 05:13 AM
The 144,000 of Israel which will be the ONLY individuals which will be protected as scripture states. All others on the earth at this time will have to chose with those not accepting the mark being killed.The 144,000 are the Jews who are saved at the 2nd Coming. The appearance of the 144,000 here has nothing to do with the Tribulation. They appear in the Day of the Lord after the Tribulation, the 2nd Coming, and the Rapture are over.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 05:15 AM
The way I read it, it's possible the 144,000 are already dead. John saw the 144,000 *standing on Mount Zion*. Now, there's no way you can get 144,000 on Mount Zion. They would have to do quite an impressive human pyramid. It has to be the heavenly Mount Zion, in the New Jerusalem.Mount Zion is going to be elevated at the 2nd Coming to the point that it will be the largest mountain in the world during the Millennium. (That's also after the rest of the world's mountains are obliterated in the earthquake associated with the 2nd Coming.)

Roelof
Sep 13th 2008, 08:36 AM
Please read my post:

LAST DAYS – THE MARK OF THE BEAST (part 2)
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1786517&postcount=596

EarlyCall
Sep 13th 2008, 09:43 AM
I'm not saying these verses relate directly to Rev 13:17, but my point is to show you that buying and selling can be spiritual:

Matthew 25
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Proverbs 23:23
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Well, I think you reinforce my contending for Revelation to be physical by referring to the above scripture.

Clearly in the scripture you give above it is a spiritual application. There is no doubt of this. But what is there in the scripture in Revelation to lead one to believe it is a spiritual application rather than a physical one? Not a thing. Therefore, what is the safe assumption? Physical can be the only safe assumption and therefore the only safe application of meaning.

Throughout the Bible we have people buying and selling and we never assume spiritual but always physical unless we clearly are shown otherwise. And that is how it should be. And yet some wish to isolate this scripture in Revelation and assume spiritual application without clear indication it ought to be applied in that manner while ignoring the default application which is always physical - unless otherwise clearly indicated.

Finally, while some argue on this board it is spiritual, they do so while ignoring what is taking place in this world before their very eyes. Man is developing the technology to do what the Bible said would be done. A pretty strong indicator if one is honest enough to admit it. Such a thing has never been possible but it is now.

People believe what they want to believe. I prefer to read what God said and then watch the world to see if they do it. That is when I will know.

ross3421
Sep 13th 2008, 10:52 AM
The appearance of the 144,000 here has nothing to do with the Tribulation. They appear in the Day of the Lord after the Tribulation, the 2nd Coming, and the Rapture are over.

:huh:


The day of the Lord is the second coming, there is no rapture nor a 1000 year reign.

Please.


Mark

Roelof
Sep 13th 2008, 11:53 AM
The day of the Lord is the second coming, there is no rapture nor a 1000 year reign.

Please.
Mark

Ross

Please explain your view point

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 09:49 PM
:huh:


The day of the Lord is the second coming, there is no rapture nor a 1000 year reign.

Please.


MarkI am a Post-Tribulational Pre-Millennialist. If you are something else, that's fine and I respect your right to be wrong. But you should also respect my right to be wrong, even though it isn't happening. If you have evidence to convince me to change my view, please present it. Otherwise, just leave out the word "please". That kind of thing is unnecessary.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 09:50 PM
Ross

Please explain your view pointSounds to me like Amillennialism.

EarlyCall
Sep 13th 2008, 10:57 PM
EarlyCall said, the mark won't need to force on people.


EarlyCall says, the mark cannot force on people.

I disagree.



Just now saw your post. I'm too short on time now, but go back and reread my post and you will not see that I ever said the mark cannot be forced on people. You misquote me here.

I did say the mark won't need to be forced on people and in general I believe that will be true. And for the reasons I gave which were but only touching on the many reasons that will play upon people to get the mark.

There will be necessity, there will be coercion and there will be threats eventually too I believe, but I don't think they will try to force it too much on individuals.

But, quickly now, why force it on people? It would be nothing for two or three men to hold a person down and forcefully put the mark on a person refusing to accept it. But to what end? There is no choice in it, no choosing to worship the beast and then why kill those that refuse the mark if you force them to take the mark? The refusal would be moot and the killing would be pointless.

Anyway, if you are going to quote me, please be more accurate in it.

Marc B
Sep 13th 2008, 11:17 PM
Scripture states the opposite.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Should be killed doesn't necessarily mean WILL be killed. It likely means liable to be killed, if you're caught.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 05:41 AM
Should be killed doesn't necessarily mean WILL be killed. It likely means liable to be killed, if you're caught.


I do not think we are to be running away..............this would not be pleasing to God. It would be more the same luke warmness. The only ones seen hiding are the unbelievers.

Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Mark

John146
Sep 15th 2008, 06:31 PM
Could you then clarify what the verse in Revelation 13 is saying if it is talking about buying and selling beliefs? What does it mean to say that no can buy or sell (his beliefs) unless he has the mark of the beast?I believe it has to do with people not being able to buy or sell their philosophy or belief system unless it is a worldly one. So, this would mean that Christians would no longer be able to preach the gospel without being persecuted. This is true in some places already, but it seems to me that it's speaking of the time when that would be the case worldwide.

John146
Sep 15th 2008, 06:43 PM
John146,

I still do not agree with you.

"Causeth" is something that could leading people to be deceived and also to force them in authority ways.

In Dan. 7:25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand unti a time and times and the dividing of time."

This is clearly speak of his power with authority to cause times and laws to be changed. These are kind of force.

Why there will be great numbers of Christians killed? Because of refuse to accept the mark of the beast. That is kind of force.

For example, when a Christian is being thrown in jail, and the persecutor is being to tormenting Christian for being to confess or admit into something, while Christian is still stubborn, the perscutor would continue torturing Christians by being beaten with rod or turn the swtich with electric chair with bands around Christian's arm, to force Christian for bein got give up belief and accept it. Till finally a Christian being give up and to accept it, then torturing will halt immediate, and let Christian live.

Make sense?

Same with Matt. 10:28 tells us, that we do not fear anyone who will kill us, because they have no power to take our soul, but rather fear God have the power to kill both our soul and body. This is speaking of being facing persecution with big test.

Yes, I strong believe the mark of beast will be being effect into new law to force all people to have it like as I.D.

The purpose of having mark, to prevent from I.D. Thefts, and to helping economy to be boost.

If a person without have mark, shall be starving to death without eat food.

We all have flesh, easy for us being hungry need food to eating to make us satisfy.

Without have mark, it would easy tempting us being straving and so hungry without eating for long time, would easily want to eat to make them satisfy and feeling better, that why they need mark.

That is kind of tempting and also force too.

For me, I do strong believe every Christians will face BIG TEST when Satan shall be revealed for a little season. MANY Christians will be killed for not have the mark. I am sure that some Christians would feel of fear to facing death and suffering, so, they rather to stay alive by accept the mark. So, their faith will FAIL the BIG TEST.

These are the big issue of salvation according Rev. 14:9-11.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!What about the case where an unbeliever who worships the beast but values his/her privacy and doesn't want such a mark and refused it? That person would be killed? It seem to me to be saying that only those who refuse to worship the beast would be killed. Also, couldn't they force a believer to take the mark, if it was physical? Of course they could. But it says in the passage you brought up (Rev 14:9-11) that anyone who takes the mark will be tormented forever. It makes no distinction about whether it was forced upon someone or not. So, it seems to me that if the mark was physical then it could be forced upon a believer and that would mean someone could cause a person to lose their salvation by forcing them to take a physical mark. But salvation is not determined by someone accepting or rejecting a physical mark. It is determined by someone accepting or rejecting the gospel. It is determined by what is in one's heart, not whether one accepts a physical mark or not.

So, the way I see it is that by worshiping Satan and the beast one receives the mark. That is how they receive it, by giving their allegiance to Satan and the beast. Conversely, we received the mark or seal of the Spirit of God by placing our faith and trust in Christ.

Jude
Sep 15th 2008, 07:39 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t240/eszlee/mark-of-the-beast1.gif

I remember when I first saw this picture it was in a tract put out by Jack Chick, this was in 1972, everyone thought it was a literal mark, so my question is "whats happened to change that mind set" Then in 1980 I was reading a book by the man that set the bar code into motion, at that time he explained the whys and wherefores. Seems that in order for that code to work, you need a password. They threw some numbers up on the ceiling to see which ones stuck, you've probably guessed by now those numbers were the numbers 666, nothing else would work, those numbers are there if you know where to look. ..

Now we come to the tittle of this thread, this mark is spiritual, not physical. Then please explain to me how your going to do your banking buy food buy anything? the scripture is quite clear here it says "They were not able to buy or sell unless" What?

Just my http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Roelof
Sep 17th 2008, 05:10 AM
Now we come to the tittle of this thread, this mark is spiritual, not physical. Then please explain to me how your going to do your banking buy food buy anything? the scripture is quite clear here it says "They were not able to buy or sell unless" What?

Just my http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


That prophetic smiling photo will go into reality within a few years, but with an electronic 666. People will ask for it with a smile because of its many advantages. They will then condemn themselves to eternal Hell !!!

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 06:05 AM
That prophetic smiling photo will go into reality within a few years, but with an electronic 666. People will ask for it with a smile because of its many advantages. They will then condemn themselves to eternal Hell !!!

I don't know how you feel about time lines, I feel that day
is right around the corner. I read news report updates from
around the world and what I see is the US falling in line
with these other countries that are persecuting our brothers
and sisters. "Sodomites getting married?" Laws are being
put together that will send us to prison if caught using are
bibles as a tool to break through to them. "Hate Crimes"
A storm is approaching and with it comes Gods fury, for
those that don't believe believe this...

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Roelof
Sep 17th 2008, 04:26 PM
I don't know how you feel about time lines, I feel that day
is right around the corner.

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


Jude

I am not in date setting but it is my hobby and passion to study Last Days prophesies and events.

The way I read the signs (please read my Last Days threads) in +- 3 years the world will be ready for an One World Government, full-scale electronic tagging of people, the Ten Regions would be in place, our world religions will be ready to accept the Antichrist in the place of God and many more. On "love become cold" and many humanistic signs I do not want to speak now, the world is in a very sad state.

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 05:16 PM
I don't know how you feel about time lines, I feel that day
is right around the corner. I read news report updates from
around the world and what I see is the US falling in line
with these other countries that are persecuting our brothers
and sisters. "Sodomites getting married?" Laws are being
put together that will send us to prison if caught using are
bibles as a tool to break through to them. "Hate Crimes"
A storm is approaching and with it comes Gods fury, for
those that don't believe believe this...

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


Do you realize that verse is in regards to believers?

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


I read news report updates from
around the world and what I see is the US falling in line
with these other countries that are persecuting our brothers
and sisters. "Sodomites getting married?" Laws are being
put together that will send us to prison if caught using are
bibles as a tool to break through to them. "Hate Crimes"
A storm is approaching and with it comes Gods fury, for
those that don't believe believe this...

This is really nothing new though. Back in Paul's day the Roman ruled 'married' a slave boy...after kicking his pregnant wife to death. All sorts of sexually immoral behavior was going on...much, much worse then what we are seeing now actually. And yes, Paul and all the believers were hunted down for their beliefs, thrown in prison..and killed. We read how many times Paul was put in jail for testifying about Christ...he was even stoned, and whipped more then once! It was horrible back in the first century trying to live as a Christian. What we are seeing now doesn't even compare to that...so I really don't understand...given history, why everyone thinks its worse now...well it really isn't. Not if you know our history.

God bless

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 05:19 PM
Jude

I am not in date setting but it is my hobby and passion to study Last Days prophesies and events.

The way I read the signs (please read my Last Days threads) in +- 3 years the world will be ready for an One World Government, full-scale electronic tagging of people, the Ten Regions would be in place, our world religions will be ready to accept the Antichrist in the place of God and many more. On "love become cold" and many humanistic signs I do not want to speak now, the world is in a very sad state.

I said that wrong, when I say just around the corner it wasn't to predict the day the year or the hour, only our heavenly Father
knows that, I meant it as Jesus when he said we would know his coming was soon, even at the doors.
I'll have a look see at those threads, last day studies consume most of my time when I'm not out in the streets sharing Christ.

Thanks,
Jude

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 05:36 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/2ebzb6e-1.gif

Thank you for pointing that out, I was referring to believers.
As far as those days when the church was trying her wings
out they had mass persecution, it hasn't stopped. To address
things remain the same what I will say that I dare say they
seldom if ever saw hailstones the size of a talent.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


Do you realize that verse is in regards to believers?

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



This is really nothing new though. Back in Paul's day the Roman ruled 'married' a slave boy...after kicking his pregnant wife to death. All sorts of sexually immoral behavior was going on...much, much worse then what we are seeing now actually. And yes, Paul and all the believers were hunted down for their beliefs, thrown in prison..and killed. We read how many times Paul was put in jail for testifying about Christ...he was even stoned, and whipped more then once! It was horrible back in the first century trying to live as a Christian. What we are seeing now doesn't even compare to that...so I really don't understand...given history, why everyone thinks its worse now...well it really isn't. Not if you know our history.

God bless

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 06:32 PM
I said that wrong, when I say just around the corner it wasn't to predict the day the year or the hour, only our heavenly Father
knows that, I meant it as Jesus when he said we would know his coming was soon, even at the doors.
I'll have a look see at those threads, last day studies consume most of my time when I'm not out in the streets sharing Christ.

Thanks,
Jude


Oh you didn't say anything wrong...people say this all the time on here! Using an expression to imply its soon is common and acceptable on here...especially since Jesus used that Himself...;) The only rule is not giving an exact day is all...




Thank you for pointing that out, I was referring to believers.
As far as those days when the church was trying her wings
out they had mass persecution, it hasn't stopped. To address
things remain the same what I will say that I dare say they
seldom if ever saw hailstones the size of a talent.

Oh ok...sorry about that! By the way I like that picture you put on here. :) Its lovely.

Oh and on the hailstones being a 100 pds. I don't see that as being literal. Most of Revelation is symbolic so I would think that would be too. But you are right in that their IS more to come...meaning not all the end time prophecies have been fulfilled.

God bless

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 06:37 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/9668scd.jpg


Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Those of us that give our energy to the study of bible prophecy find at times a deep sense of despair, we become discouraged knowing that to give up is to admit failure, the world refers to this as the circle of pain.
I've been a student for some 35 years, at one point I did quit, nothing anybody could say to make up for the way I felt, guilt settled in and took up residence accompanied by the condemnation of the devil. Without going into detail lets just say that Gods grace freed me from that state I was in. It was what you said Roelof that prompted me to make this post, I apologize for getting off topic but I can't seem to find the keys to open up Private Messages. :hmm:


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 07:03 PM
Oh you didn't say anything wrong...people say this all the time on here! Using an expression to imply its soon is common and acceptable on here...especially since Jesus used that Himself...;) The only rule is not giving an exact day is all...




Oh ok...sorry about that! By the way I like that picture you put on here. :) Its lovely.

Oh and on the hailstones being a 100 pds. I don't see that as being literal. Most of Revelation is symbolic so I would think that would be too. But you are right in that their IS more to come...meaning not all the end time prophecies have been fulfilled.

God bless

Hailstones as I understand hailstones are formed in a way much similar
to the way we form a snowman, the longer we roll it the larger it becomes. In the upper atmosphere water, temperature, and updrafts all contribute to size, the stronger the updraft the larger the hailstone, keep that puppy up there long enough and who knows, + plus take into account the changing weather patterns a hundred pounder doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility + plus Gods measuring devices are a wee different than ours..

God bless :hug:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/hail2.jpg

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 08:25 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t240/eszlee/mark-of-the-beast1.gif

I remember when I first saw this picture it was in a tract put out by Jack Chick, this was in 1972, everyone thought it was a literal mark, so my question is "whats happened to change that mind set" Then in 1980 I was reading a book by the man that set the bar code into motion, at that time he explained the whys and wherefores. Seems that in order for that code to work, you need a password. They threw some numbers up on the ceiling to see which ones stuck, you've probably guessed by now those numbers were the numbers 666, nothing else would work, those numbers are there if you know where to look. ..

Now we come to the tittle of this thread, this mark is spiritual, not physical. Then please explain to me how your going to do your banking buy food buy anything? the scripture is quite clear here it says "They were not able to buy or sell unless" What?

Just my http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


People barter for food in other countries...or grow it or live off their life stock or hunt for it. They had a thing last night in the UK where people are bartering for pints of beer. This one guy liked to fish...but had no money. He could take in his catch for the day and get a pint of beer. In some parts of the world beer and wine are considered extremely important...they drink that over water. Just a differences in culture. At any rate others started to barter for their beer, bringing in vegetables and all sorts of things for it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/7560246.stm

Not everyone lives like we do and that really needs to be taken into consideration. Millions make less then two dollars a day around the world! They don't use banks...have no money to need a bank. If the poor are excluded do they get a free ticket to Heaven for not being marked?

God bless

Jude
Sep 17th 2008, 09:47 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/Bible.jpg




Not everyone lives like we do and that really needs to be taken into consideration. Millions make less then two dollars a day around the world! They don't use banks...have no money to need a bank. If the poor are excluded do they get a free ticket to Heaven for not being marked?

Lets draw a parallel then between your statement and....

Revelation 13: 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You see where it says "all" I believe when this thing goes down it "will be all".




http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

EarlyCall
Sep 17th 2008, 10:23 PM
People barter for food in other countries...or grow it or live off their life stock or hunt for it. They had a thing last night in the UK where people are bartering for pints of beer. This one guy liked to fish...but had no money. He could take in his catch for the day and get a pint of beer. In some parts of the world beer and wine are considered extremely important...they drink that over water. Just a differences in culture. At any rate others started to barter for their beer, bringing in vegetables and all sorts of things for it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/7560246.stm

Not everyone lives like we do and that really needs to be taken into consideration. Millions make less then two dollars a day around the world! They don't use banks...have no money to need a bank. If the poor are excluded do they get a free ticket to Heaven for not being marked?

God bless


God's word is extremely clear when speaking to this mark and God said clearly that the beast causes all, great and small, rich and poor, slave and free to receive the mark.

If that isn't clear I don't know what it is. It never comes down to what we figure in our minds but rather to what God says, and God said the poor are included.

Now I know what you think, but unless you can show that God didn't really mean what He says here, then I think the word of God ought be allowed to stand as is.

Jude
Sep 18th 2008, 06:49 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/His20Word-1.jpg

moonglow
Sep 18th 2008, 10:29 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/Bible.jpg





Lets draw a parallel then between your statement and....

Revelation 13: 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You see where it says "all" I believe when this thing goes down it "will be all".




http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

But it also says those refusing to worship of the beast will be killed...

15 He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.

So apparently not all are made to take the mark...because those that refused to worship him will be killed. The mark and the worship of the beast always go together too.

All I am pointing out...is it not a financial chip...that just would not work for much of the world. If you have no money, why would you need a chip? The mark needs to be something else...

God bless

Jude
Sep 18th 2008, 10:48 PM
All I am pointing out...is it not a financial chip...that just would not work for much of the world. If you have no money, why would you need a chip? The mark needs to be something else...How would you define the Image Of The Beast?

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
How would you define the Image Of The Beast?

It would depend on the context...for instance we are made in the image of God....Christ is the image of God the Father...then we have idols which are man made and made in the image of something...or made up by the imagination of people. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4549) This explains the three type of images in the bible.

God bless

Jude
Sep 19th 2008, 01:27 AM
It would depend on the context...for instance we are made in the image of God....Christ is the image of God the Father...then we have idols which are man made and made in the image of something...or made up by the imagination of people. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4549) This explains the three type of images in the bible.

God bless

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/eh_wtf.gif

How about this context then think very carefully before you answer.
"The Statue Of Liberty" "The Statue Of Lincoln" "The Statue Of Mary"
Three Images three choices you choose, which one has come to life?


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 01:44 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/eh_wtf.gif

How about this context then think very carefully before you answer.
"The Statue Of Liberty" "The Statue Of Lincoln" "The Statue Of Mary"
Three Images three choices you choose, which one has come to life?


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

None of them are alive...they are made from stone or metal. Oh I just realized you posted a picture..for some reason its not showing up though..I just saw the photobucket thing in the quote. If the picture is related to the question...sorry...I can't see it.

Oh I found something interesting:

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5806)
(7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.

This is my view...the 'mark' is not literal but spiritual and related to Nero demanding to be worshiped in the first century.

I am partial preterism...from this point of view the tribulation is in the past and happened during the first century. Of course being partial...that means not all the end time prophecies have been fulfilled yet including the Second Coming of Christ...that obviously has not happened yet. The huge amount of historical evident showing how so many of these events already happened are hard to ignore. God wrath poured out on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. All the believers heeding Christ's warnings to flee the city when they saw it surrounded by the army...Luke 21:20. They escaped and thus fulfilled God's promise they would not suffer His wrath. The great persecute of the Christians by Nero and those following him. Christian then were hunted down...something done much easier and within the realm of possibility back then since the world was much smaller.

Fed to the lions and other wild animals as entertainment. Wrapped in tar, hung on poles and set on fire at dusk to light the way for the Romans...lips sewed closed so they could not scream and distrube those out after dark. New born babies laid at the feet of the statues of Nero to honor him and sacrifice to him...they died of exposure. People put inside of hollow logs and sawed in half...even Paul writes of this.

It was truly horrific and what Paul is referring too over and over again about the church's persecution in the NT. And John even refers too in Revelation 1:

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe Revelation was written before 70 A.D. Seeing as being an earlier writing also shows how it all falls into place. Those seven churches at that time really did exist and were really written for them! John could not directly name the beast as it would have cost him his life. Back then both greek and Hebrew lined up with numbers. A person could use numbers alone to write a complete sentence which could be read by those knowing that language. The Roman's though couldn't read that way and so the number of the beast meant nothing to them. Nero was the beast and fits the description of the beast. His name adds up in Hebrew to 666 and in greek to 616 as we see some bible's use. Its called gematria (you probably already know this...just mentioning it for those that don't)

Daniel 11

Verse 37
Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.

Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death, had his own mother killed and 'married' a slave boy. He declared himself a god and demanded to be treated as such.

markdrums did an excellent post one time explaining the mark of the beast:
http://bibleforums.org/sho...0&postcount=71

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freeb...kgbr/kgbr.html
The Beast of Revelation
by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr 1989

The Adam Clarke Commentary on Matthew 24 (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)show how the scriptures in this chapter were fulfilled in 70 AD using the historical evidence recorded at that time by Josephus a Jewish historian who witnessed it all.

The Wars Of The Jews
Or
The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm)

I was raised as a pre-trib rapture believer and constantly watched the news for things that would mean the start of the tribulation and the beast and the mark and all of that. Over and over again hearing from preachers and other leaders that this was it! And to be ready...then it didn't happen over and over again but still I believed this was the end time view. I had no idea this idea was actually fairly new (which yes I know all the arguments on that) but truly only introduced in the 1900's. I really had no idea there were even other end time views at all until I came to this board and people started poking holes in it finally forcing me to take a closer look at this view. And to explore other views. This view of partial preterism fits more out of all of the others and has strong historical evidence which as I said before, cannot be ignored. What the first century Christians went through was horrific! It was only by God's grace they survived at all to continue on in our faith.

Its fine to not agree with my view...won't hurt my feelings any. It was very hard for me to get out of the mind frame of pre-trib rapture...very, very hard. It wasn't easy for me to reject this idea and even consider others at all...so I don't post this stuff lightly and many times am attacked for having this view...so I don't readily just throw it out there even though there are others on here with the same end time views. There is alot left to happen...the release of satan from the pit (yes I believe he is bound already...bound only in stopping the spread of the gospel...not bound obviously from harassing us)...what happens when he is released, I don't know..I image then it will be very, very bad...thankfully the bible says he will only be released for a short period of time..at that point the nations will be deceived again and the gospel message cannot be spread any further. Time is up..

God bless

Jude
Sep 19th 2008, 01:50 AM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/MOJICA159/virgin.jpg


One has come to life "The Statue Of Mary" I'll leave the rest to you.


None of them are alive...they are made from stone or metal. Oh I just realized you posted a picture..for some reason its not showing up though..I just saw the photobucket thing in the quote. If the picture is related to the question...sorry...I can't see it.

Oh I found something interesting:

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5806)
(7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.

This is my view...the 'mark' is not literal but spiritual and related to Nero demanding to be worshiped in the first century.

I am partial preterism...from this point of view the tribulation is in the past and happened during the first century. Of course being partial...that means not all the end time prophecies have been fulfilled yet including the Second Coming of Christ...that obviously has not happened yet. The huge amount of historical evident showing how so many of these events already happened are hard to ignore. God wrath poured out on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. All the believers heeding Christ's warnings to flee the city when they saw it surrounded by the army...Luke 21:20. They escaped and thus fulfilled God's promise they would not suffer His wrath. The great persecute of the Christians by Nero and those following him. Christian then were hunted down...something done much easier and within the realm of possibility back then since the world was much smaller.

Fed to the lions and other wild animals as entertainment. Wrapped in tar, hung on poles and set on fire at dusk to light the way for the Romans...lips sewed closed so they could not scream and distrube those out after dark. New born babies laid at the feet of the statues of Nero to honor him and sacrifice to him...they died of exposure. People put inside of hollow logs and sawed in half...even Paul writes of this.

It was truly horrific and what Paul is referring too over and over again about the church's persecution in the NT. And John even refers too in Revelation 1:

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe Revelation was written before 70 A.D. Seeing as being an earlier writing also shows how it all falls into place. Those seven churches at that time really did exist and were really written for them! John could not directly name the beast as it would have cost him his life. Back then both greek and Hebrew lined up with numbers. A person could use numbers alone to write a complete sentence which could be read by those knowing that language. The Roman's though couldn't read that way and so the number of the beast meant nothing to them. Nero was the beast and fits the description of the beast. His name adds up in Hebrew to 666 and in greek to 616 as we see some bible's use. Its called gematria (you probably already know this...just mentioning it for those that don't)

Daniel 11

Verse 37
Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.

Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death, had his own mother killed and 'married' a slave boy. He declared himself a god and demanded to be treated as such.

markdrums did an excellent post one time explaining the mark of the beast:
http://bibleforums.org/sho...0&postcount=71

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freeb...kgbr/kgbr.html
The Beast of Revelation
by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr 1989

The Adam Clarke Commentary on Matthew 24 (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)show how the scriptures in this chapter were fulfilled in 70 AD using the historical evidence recorded at that time by Josephus a Jewish historian who witnessed it all.

The Wars Of The Jews
Or
The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm)

I was raised as a pre-trib rapture believer and constantly watched the news for things that would mean the start of the tribulation and the beast and the mark and all of that. Over and over again hearing from preachers and other leaders that this was it! And to be ready...then it didn't happen over and over again but still I believed this was the end time view. I had no idea this idea was actually fairly new (which yes I know all the arguments on that) but truly only introduced in the 1900's. I really had no idea there were even other end time views at all until I came to this board and people started poking holes in it finally forcing me to take a closer look at this view. And to explore other views. This view of partial preterism fits more out of all of the others and has strong historical evidence which as I said before, cannot be ignored. What the first century Christians went through was horrific! It was only by God's grace they survived at all to continue on in our faith.

Its fine to not agree with my view...won't hurt my feelings any. It was very hard for me to get out of the mind frame of pre-trib rapture...very, very hard. It wasn't easy for me to reject this idea and even consider others at all...so I don't post this stuff lightly and many times am attacked for having this view...so I don't readily just throw it out there even though there are others on here with the same end time views. There is alot left to happen...the release of satan from the pit (yes I believe he is bound already...bound only in stopping the spread of the gospel...not bound obviously from harassing us)...what happens when he is released, I don't know..I image then it will be very, very bad...thankfully the bible says he will only be released for a short period of time..at that point the nations will be deceived again and the gospel message cannot be spread any further. Time is up..

God bless

David Taylor
Sep 19th 2008, 02:14 PM
So what is the point exactly:confused, of including a post of a ghostly-looking woman floating in the clouds in front of the sun?

It isn't a statue, which is what the thread was recently talking about; so what are you trying to get at?

Jude
Sep 19th 2008, 11:21 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/index-1.gif

I'm beginning to understand the meaning of a strong delusion here.
If N you can't see life in the virgin then that's the way it will stand.
She talks she walks she bleeds and she cries, do I have to spell it out?
Uh Oh it looks like I just did.

Look brother/sister I'm not a trouble starter,
if you have seen the things I have seen then you might
understand. + Plus have you read the book by Hislop?
Its called "The Two Babylons" not an easy read granted,
it took me several weeks. Satan can blow smoke so thick
its hard to see through it but spiritual apparitions
are quite common. If your a good student then read his
book here..

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 11:57 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/index-1.gif

I'm beginning to understand the meaning of a strong delusion here.
If N you can't see life in the virgin then that's the way it will stand.
She talks she walks she bleeds and she cries, do I have to spell it out?
Uh Oh it looks like I just did.

Look brother/sister I'm not a trouble starter,
if you have seen the things I have seen then you might
understand. + Plus have you read the book by Hislop?
Its called "The Two Babylons" not an easy read granted,
it took me several weeks. Satan can blow smoke so thick
its hard to see through it but spiritual apparitions
are quite common. If your a good student then read his
book here..

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


The thing is people also see this in statues of Christ...people of the Islam faith believe they see image of the word Allah..images of all sorts of saints...every single religion on earth has seen things like this...some on here are convinced the beast will come from Islam in fact and could give you strong evidence of that! I wouldn't say we are suffering from an delusion simply because we have never been Catholic nor experienced what you say you have experienced. There is a difference between delusions and lack of knowledge. The bible does not say the image is Mary...so its not like we are ignoring some scriptures on it because its not there. Everyone is trying to figure out who the beast is..including the image..

You are the first person I have ever encountered with this idea in fact and I have read alot of ideas on this. I have also read alot of books and listened to many preachers on this subject and none of them ever presented this idea. The pope has been in there, sure! But not Mary.

The passage on a strong delusion is about believers turning their backs on God...those that love sin...we don't fit that description by any means at all. I would never say such a thing to you simply because you didn't agree OR understand what I was saying...

Jude
Sep 20th 2008, 01:30 AM
Moonglow Lets try and stay focused, there is but one beast in Revelation he is Christ's sworn enemy. He has has to fit Daniels description be more exacting moonglow, he's been on a mission with one goal in mind "Jerusalem" Haven't you been following his movements? try looking
here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmW9kgyvwkI&feature=related

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

moonglow
Sep 20th 2008, 01:42 AM
Moonglow Lets try and stay focused, there is but one beast in Revelation he is Christ's sworn enemy. He has has to fit Daniels description be more exacting moonglow, he's been on a mission with one goal in mind "Jerusalem" Haven't you been following his movements? try looking
here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmW9kgyvwkI&feature=related

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


Lets try to stay focus? Jude I am 47 years old and not a child...I don't mind information being shared, given and presented in a Christ like manner...these other comments aren't needed and only cause division. Lets stop here while we are still ahead. We both believe and love our Savior Jesus Christ...lets rejoice in that! Meanwhile I think this discussion between us needs to stop. God bless you and may the Lord guide you in all you do.

Jude
Sep 20th 2008, 03:04 AM
Lets try to stay focus? Jude I am 47 years old and not a child...I don't mind information being shared, given and presented in a Christ like manner...these other comments aren't needed and only cause division. Lets stop here while we are still ahead. We both believe and love our Savior Jesus Christ...lets rejoice in that! Meanwhile I think this discussion between us needs to stop. God bless you and may the Lord guide you in all you do.

I agree brother, what I think happen is the same thing that happens to anybody going for Romes jugular, Rome is indeed Babylon the great, the Papist's fill the description of Anti-Christ to a tee "Not Islam" His Army is a separate devision run by a Jesuit General, they are in key positions Worldwide. :giveup:

God bless

LittleguyintheEye
Feb 18th 2011, 10:07 PM
In short the mark of the beast is a counterfeit of YHWH (Isaiah 14:14). The Mark of YHWH is His Word, His Image. The mark of the beast is his ‘word’, his image. The Tree of Life vs. the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is the mark of a beast and a number of a man. Man/beast (Genesis 3:1). A mixture.

The adversary desires to be like the Most High. In Hebrew, the phrase ‘like Elohim’ is equivalent to 666.

Gen 3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/mark-of-the-beast-part-1/

Firefighter
Feb 18th 2011, 10:29 PM
Does this mean we should pull out our super secret gematria decoder rings now?

LittleguyintheEye
Feb 19th 2011, 10:36 AM
Gematria can be used to gain a deeper understanding of Revelation 13:18 but it shouldn't be our primary tool. 666 is translated from 3 Greek letters
χξς

The First and last letters of χξς are the the first and last letters of Christos Χριστός. The middle letter is the Greek letter for Serpent ξ because it looks like a serpent. Hence, serpent Messiah.

The Greek alphabet comes from the Phoenician alphabet which, in essence, is the same as Paleo Hebrew. χξς would be rendered in Phoenician as:
χ =http://littleguyintheeye.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/tav-phoenician.jpg?w=30&h=44 (http://littleguyintheeye.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/tav-phoenician.jpg) which is a picture of crossed sticks
ξ= http://littleguyintheeye.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/sameck-phoenician.jpg?w=32&h=47 (http://littleguyintheeye.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/sameck-phoenician.jpg)which is a picture of a thorn or branch
ς= Stigma means a mark and like the letter ξ was used to represent a coiled serpent.
Hence, the pictograph meaning of the χξς is a serpent on the branch of a tree. It is the equivalent of the tree of knowledge of good and evil click here (http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/mark-of-the-beast-5-the-cross/).

http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2009/12/07/mark-of-the-beast-2-666/

Nihil Obstat
Feb 19th 2011, 03:52 PM
Wow, Levi, I see from your blog that you've really done a lot of research and writing on this topic. How much of all that, I wonder, might the seven churches who John was writing to in the middle of the first century (Rev. 1:4) been able to figure out by their wisdom (13:18)? Because I think that the obvious referent (and the only referent) to the number of the man's name would have been Nero. Your "serpent Messiah" theory would carry more weight if the beast (or even the false prophet) were likened by John to a snake, but he is not (see 13:2, 11). Furthermore, the figure of a snake on the branch of a tree wouldn't have brought to mind the Fall in Eden (which never says the snake was up in the trees), but most likely Num. 21:9, which Jesus considered to be Messianic (John 3:14). So if there is anything to the Phoenician alphabet part of your post (which I think even that is taking this all too far, as John was writing to Gentile Christians, in the language that they used, Greek), it would be to apply that Messianic image to the beast (which is clearly what you're trying to evidence anyway). Be that as it may, it is my humble opinion that you give your studies not to one verse in Revelation, but to the content of Revelation, being the worship of God and the Lamb. Believing that the mark is still a future evil (I would disagree) and having the knowledge of what all such a thing is rooted amongst will not keep anyone from receiving the thing like the worship of the Father and His Son can. Blessings to you, and welcome to the boards! - astro

LittleguyintheEye
Feb 20th 2011, 12:38 AM
Thanks for the comments Astro. Did you read all 10 parts of the Mark study I've put up or just the 666 one? If you read through the entire study, I've addressed most of the verses in Scripture which refer to the mark.

The beast is related to the serpent/dragon. Revelation 13 speaks of the authority of the beast being given by the dragon. Revelation 12:17 says that it is the dragon who persecutes the saints and in Daniel this is speaking of the beast of Revelation 13 (Daniel 7:25). The beast of Revelation is also foreshadowed by Pharaoh in the book of Exodus who is described as a dragon in Ezekiel 29:3. Furthermore, Revelation 13:1 corresponds to Revelation 12:3 via the reference to 7 heads and 10 horns.

The image of the serpent and the tree points back to the Garden of Eden and the fruit of the tree of knowledge as the initial mark of the beast. I agree that the mark of the beast is not entirely in the future but is with us today and has been with us since the beginning. Part 1 of the study I address this as the mark of YHWH is seen represented by the tree of Life. The mark of the beast is represented by the tree of knowledge.

I address the connection to the serpent on the pole and its relation to the mark in part 5.http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/mark-of-the-beast-5-the-cross/

I believe that those who first read the book of Revelation would have understood what I am saying. A lot of the information I share in the study has come from days following the early Church but it comes forth from the same source, the Mystery Religions. A lot of believers try to point the finger at the Roman Catholic Church only or Islam only etc, but miss the point that it is the Mystery religions that John is referring to when it comes to the beast. The Mystery religions come forth from the serpent & the tree of knowledge which were 'resurrected' by Nimrod and then passed down through the kingdom of darkness to today.

You are right that the most important thing is worshiping the Father & the Son. That is the purpose of sharing my studies. However, there are a lot of things that have crept into our worship of the Father and & Son that aren't Biblical but spring forth from the tree of knowledge. That is why I share this information on the mark. I would love to only read the Bible and share studies from it only, but sometimes the Father leads us to expose the works of darkness so that we be not ignorant and fall for counterfeit versions of the Truth.

If you are interested in all 10 parts (more to come) I will share this link. http://markofthebeastormarkofyah.blogspot.com/

vtwinr
Feb 20th 2011, 03:51 AM
Precisely what the mark of the beast is I do not know, nor do I believe that it is necessary for me to know, as I do believe that this mark is a spiritual one, as is also the mark of the Lamb. The reason I think that these marks are spiritual marks, is because of the very purpose of them in being significations visible to angels only, either good or bad. We would do much the same in our own world in the case of opposing armies using differing uniforms for identification, to each other's advantage or disadvantage.

You can see the consequential evidence for this frequently in the case of any blood washed, Holy Spirit filled, and consecrated believer in Christ. Such godly believers are sometimes mysteriously, unexpectedly and unjustifiably picked out of a crowd in some public place, and harassed by others for no reason at all known to the Christian at the time. My conjecture here is that the demons indwelling or influencing the devil's own children, can plainly see the spiritual mark of the Lamb upon any one of Christ's little lambs, and accordingly persecute them for that reason, having been informed who's side they're on. The mark of the beast would have a similar effect in that the demons could easily aid one of the devil's own brood, while angels of the Lord could just as easily keep a constant, hawk-like vigil upon one whom they know very well the devil could use at any time to harm a precious, blood bought child of God.

Firstfruits
Feb 20th 2011, 10:24 AM
i believe scripture is quite clear that satan and god alike claim each of their own with a spiritual mark.

mark of satan:

"He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a mark on their right hand or on their forehead." (revelation 13:16)

"Then I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and his image and the number of his name." (revelation 15:2)

mark of god:

"Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub where it had rested to the threshold of the temple. He called to the man dressed in linen who had the writing kit at his side. The Lord said to him, “Go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of the people who moan and groan over all the abominations practiced in it.” (ezekiel 9:3-4)

"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He shouted out with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given permission to damage the earth and the sea: “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel..." (revelation 7:2-5)

"Then out of the smoke came locusts onto the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth, or any green plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their forehead." (revelation 9:3-4)

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life – water as clear as crystal – pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city’s main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations. And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him, and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads." (revelation 22:1-4)

surely, god has never, nor will ever force his believers to receive a physical implant/mark in order to convey to others that they belong to him. likewise, satan will not force people to receive a physical mark. this would also thwart his plan of deception, as this process would be too obvious.

i also think it could prove to be detrimental to believe satan's mark will be a physical one, being forcibly administered in a public scenario (as commonly depicted). this undoubtedly has caused some individuals to attempt to evaluate their current place in the end-time calendar, therefore perhaps causing spiritual lukewarmness (for example, "oh, we haven't been forced to receive the mark of the beast yet, so christ's return must be further down the road").

therefore, this is why i believe this common portrayal of the "mark of the beast", as depicted in mainstream christian media, might very well be a deception straight from satan himself. perhaps satan does not want humanity to realize that they already have his mark.

i believe further proof that humanity has, is, and will continue to receive the mark of the beast up until the second coming, is derived from the following scripture:

"There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (revelation 14:11)

when i look at my home country, for example, i cannot help but notice the "restlessness" in the individuals that reside in it. people are so busy with their day-to-day grind that they simply do not have rest - physically, emotionally or spiritually. this does not surprise me however, because i believe the united states is the most ungodly nation on the planet. due to the fact that most of its citizens are not saved, consequently partakers of the mark of the beast, they therefore do not have no rest.

another important subject is that of physical sleep.

"He grants sleep to those he loves." (psalm 127:2)

charles spurgeon calls this the "peculiar sleep of the beloved (http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0012.htm)". apparently, god is pleased to grant true believers a peculiar and precious physical rest.

i have noticed that "sleep aide" commercials are quite prevalent on television in america. if indeed america is the ungodly nation that it is, then perhaps there is literally "no rest for the wicked".




How would that affect being able to buy and sell if those in charge cannot tell who you belong to by seeing something visible/physical?

How could someone that worships the beast be identified apart from someone that does not when they stand side by side to by bread?

What could cause one to be killed and another not to be killed?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2011, 11:10 AM
There has to be a physical mark, or name or number of the beast that would verify that you are allowed to buy and sell.

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

At that time those that have the mark will betray those that do not.

Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Firstfruits

Ezekiel 13:20
Feb 25th 2011, 02:23 PM
In your forehead means it's in your mind.
In your right hand means your are working to promote it.

Those who have been beguiled by the FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-trib rapture have it in their mind.
Those who teach/support,give money to churches/teachers of pre-trib,are working for it and thus have it in their hand.

rom826
Feb 25th 2011, 02:31 PM
In your forehead means it's in your mind.
In your right hand means your are working to promote it.

Those who have been beguiled by the FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-trib rapture have it in their mind.
Those who teach/support,give money to churches/teachers of pre-trib,are working for it and thus have it in their hand.

I am sorry but your false accusation toward your brothers and sisters in Christ who might have a different end time viewpoint than yours is absolutely evil and wicked.

Firstfruits
Feb 25th 2011, 02:39 PM
In your forehead means it's in your mind.
In your right hand means your are working to promote it.

Those who have been beguiled by the FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-trib rapture have it in their mind.
Those who teach/support,give money to churches/teachers of pre-trib,are working for it and thus have it in their hand.

Here on this forum we may not always agree on doctrine, but to apply that to being related to the mark of the beast cannot be true according to scripture.

Firstfruits

markdrums
Feb 25th 2011, 02:40 PM
In your forehead means it's in your mind.
In your right hand means your are working to promote it.

Those who have been beguiled by the FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-trib rapture have it in their mind.
Those who teach/support,give money to churches/teachers of pre-trib,are working for it and thus have it in their hand.

I personally do agree that, the forhead represents what a person thinks/believes... and the right hand represents what a person does / how they live.

I don't hold to a pre-trib view myself but, I strongly disagree that our fellow brothers & sisters in Christ who have a pre-trib rapture view have anything at all to do with having the mark.

Firefighter
Feb 25th 2011, 03:06 PM
I am sorry but your false accusation toward your brothers and sisters in Christ who might have a different end time viewpoint than yours is absolutely evil and wicked.


Here on this forum we may not always agree on doctrine, but to apply that to being related to the mark of the beast cannot be true according to scripture.


I don't hold to a pre-trib view myself but, I strongly disagree that our fellow brothers & sisters in Christ who have a pre-trib rapture view have anything at all to do with having the mark.

What they said, except all official and everything.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 25th 2011, 03:14 PM
In your forehead means it's in your mind.
In your right hand means your are working to promote it.

Those who have been beguiled by the FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-trib rapture have it in their mind.
Those who teach/support,give money to churches/teachers of pre-trib,are working for it and thus have it in their hand.

While I think I understand what you are getting at, your approach to share this is not only unscriptural but it is ineffective. :cool:

Ok, first here is what I believe you are saying.... let me know. IF the pre-trib position convinced someone they would be removed prior to the Mark being used, a follower of this doctrine might be duped into receiving the mark.... right? In other words, say a 'system' came along someone might conclude it were not the 'Mark' since they had not been raptured. Right?

So, the problem is that NO ONE who might hold to such a belief is going to be convicted to change when someone comes and offers this belief without compassion or scriptural backing. :hmm:

I hope you come back, and please do try to check your spirit and seek to share what you see in the Spirit of Love we are instructed to have for one another.

Samuel II
Jul 1st 2011, 06:17 AM
The mark or seal of God is one of character, "Christ in you the hope of Glory" Satans Mark is in either the hand, what you do, or in the forehead, what you believe. Gods seal is found only in the forehead....You either honor God by having Christ in you (in your heart) , or you have satan's character in you.....it all boils down to who we choose as Lord...

AmongTheLeast
Jul 1st 2011, 10:14 PM
G5480
χάραγμα
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.

Concordance definition for the words "a mark" for reference.

I would encourage you to study 1st Kings Chapter 10. For therein lies the answer to unlocking this piece of wisdom.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

petepet
Jul 1st 2011, 11:01 PM
G5480
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I agree with those who see these marks as spiritual marks affecting thinking and doing. But in the first centuries of the Christian era all men in the Roman Empire had to offer sacrifices or libations to the emperor. They were then given a certificate to indicate that they had done so. It was this certificate that had to be produced in order to buy and sell. And it demonstrated that their minds and hands had been devoted to the emperor, the anti-Christ (one who sets himself up in the place of Christ).

It may well have been that some authorities did physically mark those who had fulfilled their 'civic duty'.

Some Christians avoided the problem by buying certificates from friends. They were called by the church leaders the libellatici. Sadly some Christians did sacrifice. They were called by the church leadres the sacrificati. Both were subjected to church punishment.

Here is the 'mark of the Beast'

Caleb
Jul 4th 2011, 10:49 PM
I agree with those who see these marks as spiritual marks affecting thinking and doing. But in the first centuries of the Christian era all men in the Roman Empire had to offer sacrifices or libations to the emperor. They were then given a certificate to indicate that they had done so. It was this certificate that had to be produced in order to buy and sell. And it demonstrated that their minds and hands had been devoted to the emperor, the anti-Christ (one who sets himself up in the place of Christ).

It may well have been that some authorities did physically mark those who had fulfilled their 'civic duty'.

Some Christians avoided the problem by buying certificates from friends. They were called by the church leaders the libellatici. Sadly some Christians did sacrifice. They were called by the church leadres the sacrificati. Both were subjected to church punishment.

Here is the 'mark of the Beast'

"to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads"

Surely, if someone did the doing (right hand) then they would also have done the thinking (the forehead)

That would mean the mark was on the righthand and the forehead, not either or.

(Imho) receiving the mark is not the same as worshiping the beast. All who worship the beast will also receive the mark, but not all who receive the mark, will worship the beast.

For me, the receiving the mark for buying and selling, would suggest that there is no trust in God to provide.

Ceegen
Jul 5th 2011, 08:53 PM
"to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads"

Surely, if someone did the doing (right hand) then they would also have done the thinking (the forehead)

That would mean the mark was on the righthand and the forehead, not either or.

(Imho) receiving the mark is not the same as worshiping the beast. All who worship the beast will also receive the mark, but not all who receive the mark, will worship the beast.

For me, the receiving the mark for buying and selling, would suggest that there is no trust in God to provide.

Yes and no.

I think many Christians in the end times will be marked with a physical mark to deceive the rest of the world "hey look at these guys, they're of the devil" kind of thing. But the real mark, IN the forehead, will be your thoughts; just as Jesus described that a man who THINKS about adultery has already committed the act of it already. Likewise, IN the right hand signifies an act, since the "right hand" is usually seen as the dominant hand, so it goes to reason that an act of worship or compliance with "the beast" gives you this mark by your actions. They two marks are not mutually exclusive, but are not one in the same.

petepet
Jul 5th 2011, 09:16 PM
I agree with you my friend. One channel in our country shows the advances of science in Japan. There is one particular technology where you don't have to bring multiple e-cards for your daily routines. It can be your company ID, your subway ticket, your credit card, and your main ID. This is already being practiced in some of their cities. What alarmed me is when the chips implanted on pets with the owner's information is the size of a grain of rice. I sometimes think too much, but what if it will be integrated and adapted for us? When will we start to see it as a norm to have this on humans? Only time will tell.

With the advent on terrorism and need for more security that is convenient for faster transactions, perhaps DNA information will be integrated to that embedded chip as well. Faster security checks on airports. Very enticing for the scared population who have to contend with "irritating" security checks.

I believe it will be a physical mark.

But why should all this be seen as the mark of the Beast?. It is simply a mark of technical advancement. The mark of the Beast specifically identifies people as worshippers of the Beast, and it is said to be 666 (Rev 13.17-18). I believe that the mark of the Beast is in fact unbelief, the belief in this world (666) rather than in the next (777).

Nor do i believe it to be irrevocable. It is those who persist in wearing the mark of the Beast ('those who ARE worshipping the Beast') who will be condemned.

The Beast of Rev 13 (world empire) emerged in 1st century AD (Satan having failed to destroy God's people and arousing the Roman empire against them) and has persisted in one form or another through the centuries. Millions have died bearing the mark of the Beast. At times it has been connected with physical manifestations such as the sacrificial certificates from the time of Decius and it seems very probable that at times people were physically marked in order to indicate their loyalty to the emperor. But intrinsic to it all was the mark of unbelief.

There are no good grounds at all for limiting it to happenings in the future.

dan
Jul 15th 2011, 12:59 AM
It is my feeling that the "mark" is nothing more than a tattoo.

The religious entity that might take over the world is anti-technology, so there is no reason to bring microchips or DNA into it.

A respect and admiration for Hitler will inspire them to mark their victims before they kill them, IMO.

petepet
Jul 15th 2011, 11:43 AM
It is my feeling that the "mark" is nothing more than a tattoo.

The religious entity that might take over the world is anti-technology, so there is no reason to bring microchips or DNA into it.

A respect and admiration for Hitler will inspire them to mark their victims before they kill them, IMO.

It is tempting to suggest that the modern predeliction for tattoos is a mark of the Beast. But that would be going too far. The mark is specifically associated with the number of his name, 666. This is emphatically the number of earth. The Beast contains the idea of man's earthly empires as controlled by Satan (in Daniel the Beast is both the king and his kingdom) as opposed to the Kingly Rule of God. In one sense the mark has changed through time. Satan has a hundred ways of marking those who follow him. Men have been marked in all kinds of ways. But the basic mark is unbelief, however expressed.

There is no reason to doubt that in times of persecution people in the Roman Empire were physically marked in order to be seen as acceptable citizens so that they could legitmately buy and sell. It may well be that in the final days of the age such a mark will be repeated, but it is not a necessity. All understood that to be marked by the Beast
indicated loyalty to false gods.

dan
Jul 27th 2011, 09:59 PM
It is tempting to suggest that the modern predeliction for tattoos is a mark of the Beast. But that would be going too far. The mark is specifically associated with the number of his name, 666. This is emphatically the number of earth. The Beast contains the idea of man's earthly empires as controlled by Satan (in Daniel the Beast is both the king and his kingdom) as opposed to the Kingly Rule of God. In one sense the mark has changed through time. Satan has a hundred ways of marking those who follow him. Men have been marked in all kinds of ways. But the basic mark is unbelief, however expressed.

There is no reason to doubt that in times of persecution people in the Roman Empire were physically marked in order to be seen as acceptable citizens so that they could legitmately buy and sell. It may well be that in the final days of the age such a mark will be repeated, but it is not a necessity. All understood that to be marked by the Beast
indicated loyalty to false gods.

I disagree.

There will be three "marks" according to scripture. The "mark", the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here:

REV 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So, it wouldn't be any tattoo, but only one of the three. Also, the "mark" is not "666", for that is the "number of his name."

Please explain why it is tempting to you to suggest that a predilection for tattoos is the "mark".

Adrianne
Jul 30th 2011, 01:37 AM
From what I understand, the mark of the beast is more of a
doctrine, or statement of faith rather than a physical mark
or implanted chip on the body. This doctrine will deny and
reject Jesus Christ.

Under Islamic theology, there is a Calephate which is an
Islamic government. Under the Calephate is the Bay'ah
which is a pledge of allegiance or pledge of submission.
Every muslim is to make this pledge if there's a Calephate
in place or be beheaded.

Under sharia law, if you reject the authority of the Calephate
you would not be able to buy or sell. When you look at Islam,
it has all of the biblical traits of the system of the antichrist.

Fsf1o1
Jul 30th 2011, 04:51 AM
Nice thought man