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Cassie67
Sep 11th 2008, 04:52 AM
Hello everyone -
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the dragon that Michael fights in Revelation 12:7.

I have recently heard it argued that the dragon is representative of the material, materialistic world, the belief in science at the expense of belief in the soul, and the Satanic forces that separate mankind from his spiritual focus.

I didn't quite know what to say to this idea -- I have not studied Revelation like I should. I am sure that many of you have insights to share and I would love to hear your thoughts.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 05:05 AM
John answers your question himself in Revelation 12:9 - "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray."

The dragon is the person, Satan, the chief of the demons, the fallen angels. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't let anybody's wild theories about this or that make it more complicated than it needs to be. When the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense. The dragon is Satan. Period. :)

jeffweeder
Sep 11th 2008, 07:05 AM
If the man child is Jesus, and the dragon trys to consume it, then we cannot fail to see Herod....the false king of Judea, who tryed to have him killed.

looking forward
Sep 11th 2008, 05:19 PM
The Manchild is alive today, and Satan will try to devour him, but he is taken to heaven instead.

Cassie67
Sep 11th 2008, 06:46 PM
Thank you! I appreciate it!

Lisadawn
Sep 15th 2008, 08:01 PM
John answers your question himself in Revelation 12:9 - "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray."

The dragon is the person, Satan, the chief of the demons, the fallen angels. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't let anybody's wild theories about this or that make it more complicated than it needs to be. When the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense. The dragon is Satan. Period. :)

One great Post!!!

By the way, I believe the man child is Israel. I will have to go look that up. Some people think it is the church, but I believe the man child is Israel.

Lisadawn
Sep 15th 2008, 08:19 PM
See Zachariah 12:10

I change my view. The man child is Christ....the Woman is Israel. If the woman were Mary then we would have a dragon at the nativity. Instead, Satan, the Dragon has always hated Israel because God loves them.....also they were the nation from whom the Messiah came.

In the last days....when Christ comes back the second time, the remnant of Israel will look on him whom they have pierced. They will see the Messiah with the nail prints in his hand.

scourge39
Sep 15th 2008, 08:20 PM
One great Post!!!

By the way, I believe the man child is Israel. I will have to go look that up. Some people think it is the church, but I believe the man child is Israel.

It's faithful OT Jews and the Christian Church collectively. Ephesians 2 makes it clear that Jesus has removed the ethnic division between Jews and Gentiles.

faroutinmt
Sep 15th 2008, 08:33 PM
Obviously, just as Luke pointed out, the dragon is Satan. When the scripture itself gives you the meaning and representation there is no need to speculate further on wild ideas about modern nations.

The scripture, I believe, also tells us who the man child is: Jesus Christ. Its says of the child that He is to "rule all nations with a rod of iron." (Rev. 12:5) In Psalm 2, speaking of the Messiah, the LORD says, "Ask of Me, and I willgive you the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel." (Psalm 2:8,9)

Itallics added

crush
Sep 15th 2008, 11:29 PM
The "man child's" description of being the one that will "rule all nations with a rod of iron" is a clear description of Jesus Christ. However, in the context of Rev 12, it is very strenuous to have Jesus represent the man child that is caught up to heaven.

It would seem that the "war in heaven" that results in Satan's fall would have to occur [just] prior to Christ's birth. And we are told in the same Chapter that Satan is....Rev 12:10 for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. So the implication of verse 10 is that Satan IS in heaven, until his fall, accusing us. So either we haven't had an accuser in heaven for 2000 years, being "cast out of Heaven" means that Satan can still come and go as he pleases, or "the war in heaven" is a future event.

If the "war in heaven" is future (which I believe) then the "man child" in Rev 12 couldn't be Jesus and fit in the time-line of events here.

If the "war in heaven" is past, prior to Christ's birth, then Rev 12 is very clumsy and would seem to jump back and forth in time in a non-sensical way.

I have a theory about who the "man-child" could be - but it's also pretty clumsy - the 144,000 Jewish Remnant. Here's why I think it's a possibility.

1) they are born from the woman [Israel]
2) they are "caught up" to heaven (they appear with Christ on Mt. Sion during the trib....[Rev 14:1]
3) they are referred to as "firstfruits" [Rev 14:4], and also Jesus is referred to as "firstfruits" in [1Co 15:20] in a funny way that makes him sound like more than one person.
4) the remaining Jews (remnant of her seed) remain behind to be persecuted by the Beast during the trib....
(next part requires the 144,000 to also be the "bride of christ")
5) Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
6) During Christ's "rod of iron" rulership they "follow him where-ever he goes" [Rev 14:4] [Rth 1:16-17 are examples of this kind of wifely devotion]

and some more I forgot LOL...anyway, I realize it's a tough sell, but I've had a lot of trouble with Rev 12 because of the man-child "obviously" representing Jesus, and I've searched and never seen any satisfactory interpretations of Rev 12....

So, according to my theory, the "man-child" is Jesus's Bride [144,000] - and they are "one flesh" - so also to rule jointly (as a queen) with a "rod of iron" when the time comes

scourge39
Sep 15th 2008, 11:43 PM
Revelation 12 mentions Christ's original birth. It's not describing anything futurist in that regard. The part about being caught up is simply a reference to his post-resurrection ascension.

Lisadawn
Sep 15th 2008, 11:56 PM
Revelation 12 mentions Christ's original birth. It's not describing anything futurist in that regard. The part about being caught up is simply a reference to his post-resurrection ascension.

The Book of Revelation is a futurist book. Jesus tells John that he is going to show him things that have been, things that are, and things that are to come. At the time the Book of Revelation was written Jesus had already been ascended for close to 70 years. John was an old man on the Isle of Patmos and had not seen Jesus for a long time. It must have been an amazing visit.

crush
Sep 16th 2008, 12:18 AM
Revelation 12 mentions Christ's original birth. It's not describing anything futurist in that regard. The part about being caught up is simply a reference to his post-resurrection ascension.

the prob with that theory is that the "man-child" in rev 12 is "caught up" to heaven to escape Satan's wrath.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

At the time of Jesus's ascension he had already suffered death at the hand of Satan - he wasn't trying to escape Satan's wrath by ascending into heaven - he told us why he was leaving (so the comforter could come) [Joh 16:7]

Tanya~
Sep 16th 2008, 12:19 AM
The "man child's" description of being the one that will "rule all nations with a rod of iron" is a clear description of Jesus Christ. However, in the context of Rev 12, it is very strenuous to have Jesus represent the man child that is caught up to heaven.

It is not at all strenuous, because "And her Child was caught up to God and His throne" is a clear reference to the resurrection of Christ and His position at the right hand of God (See Eph 1:20).


If the "war in heaven" is future (which I believe) then the "man child" in Rev 12 couldn't be Jesus and fit in the time-line of events here.

I believe the war in heaven is future and have no difficulty with the man child being Jesus. The war in heaven will occur at the time of the Great Tribulation. Compare this passage:

Dan 12:1
"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
NKJV

When Michael defeats Satan and Satan is cast down, he will then vent his wrath first on Israel and then on Christians. This is the Great Tribulation described by Daniel and by Jesus (Mt 24:21).

crush
Sep 16th 2008, 12:40 AM
I believe the war in heaven is future

:pp Well I'm very pleased to meet you then!!!


and have no difficulty with the man child being Jesus.If the dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven at the time of Christ's birth, then Satan is not in heaven at the time of the Abomination of Desolation for Michael to have his war against. I think that is the basic problem....otherwise, Satan would have to head back up to Heaven and re-attack






The war in heaven will occur at the time of the Great Tribulation. Compare this passage:

Dan 12:1
"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
NKJV

When Michael defeats Satan and Satan is cast down, he will then vent his wrath first on Israel and then on Christians. This is the Great Tribulation described by Daniel and by Jesus (Mt 24:21).I'm familiar with Dan 12:1 and agree with your interpretation 100%!

Also, another verse in Daniel that gives credibility to this happening at the timing of the AofD is - Dan 8:10-11

Also consider Satan's curse, in the Garden - to "crawl on his belly [walk the earth], and eat dust [seek whom he may devour]" [Gen 3:14] and compare it to the description of Satan in [1Pe 5:8]

If God telling a Heavenly Creature (Satan) to "crawl on his belly" means to "walk the earth", wouldn't an Angel "standing up" as Michael is doing in Dan 12:1 mean to be in heaven? So Michael, it seems, doesn't head back down to protect Israel after he cast Satan down :hmm: Hence, the "time of trouble"

Anyhoo, fun to think about

faroutinmt
Sep 16th 2008, 02:07 AM
As Jesus was speaking of His soon to be crucifixion, He said, "And now the ruler of this world is cast out." John 12:30-33

Through the cross, Satan was cast out and defeated. The event in Revelation which speaks of it, is referring to Christ's work in the gospel.

The abomination of desolation occurred in the first century.

Tanya~
Sep 16th 2008, 02:21 AM
:pp Well I'm very pleased to meet you then!!!

I'm pleased to meet you too crush. :hug:


If the dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven at the time of Christ's birth, then Satan is not in heaven at the time of the Abomination of Desolation for Michael to have his war against. I think that is the basic problem....otherwise, Satan would have to head back up to Heaven and re-attack

It doesn't say Satan is cast out of heaven at the time of Christ's birth. It does say that his tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. I understand this to be a reference to his past history, when he had been cast out from his original position in heaven, his original rebellion long ago. That's when he drew 1/3 of the angels who rebelled with him.

Satan is active in "the heavenly places" meaning the spiritual realm (e.g., Eph 6:12), and I believe this is where the "war in heaven" takes place. There isn't war around God's throne, it is in the spiritual realm, where the angels and demons are active.



If God telling a Heavenly Creature (Satan) to "crawl on his belly" means to "walk the earth", wouldn't an Angel "standing up" as Michael is doing in Dan 12:1 mean to be in heaven? So Michael, it seems, doesn't head back down to protect Israel after he cast Satan down :hmm: Hence, the "time of trouble"I think Michael standing up is connected to the lifting of the restraint of the lawless one. Michael stands up, there is war in heaven, Satan is cast to the earth and has no more access to accuse the saints before God, but at the same time he is no longer restrained from being able to put the lawless one in the position of persecuting Israel and the church. (2 Thess)

gtg!

crush
Sep 16th 2008, 05:39 AM
It doesn't say Satan is cast out of heaven at the time of Christ's birth. It does say that his tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. I understand this to be a reference to his past history, when he had been cast out from his original position in heaven, his original rebellion long ago. That's when he drew 1/3 of the angels who rebelled with him.

OK, I see what you're saying...but I think that Rev 12:10 makes it clear that Satan, prior to being cast out in the "war in heaven", is in the heaven where God is, because he is accusing us before God (night and day). I think that the scripture makes it clear that this is the heaven (where God is) that he gets cast out of, not the earthly spiritual realm.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So if the Devil was indeed in Heaven, then his angels were also there with him, because they get cast "to earth" at the same time he does.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I also find it hard to swallow that Satan gets Cast out twice (whether the first time was at the time of Christ or some un-defined time before)


Satan is active in "the heavenly places" meaning the spiritual realm (e.g., Eph 6:12), and I believe this is where the "war in heaven" takes place. There isn't war around God's throne, it is in the spiritual realm, where the angels and demons are active.I understand that Satan has control over all the earthly spiritual rulers, except the "prince of Israel" [Michael] as we see in Dan 10. But I believe that at the time Michael "stand up", all these other rulers "prince of persia", "prince of greece", "prince of canada" [lol] etc.. also "stand up". But I can't see how they're cast down "to earth" if the battle occurs "on earth". And I also believe that the war must occur in Heaven [where God is] for the reasons I've stated before.


I think Michael standing up is connected to the lifting of the restraint of the lawless one. Michael stands up, there is war in heaven, Satan is cast to the earth and has no more access to accuse the saints before God, but at the same time he is no longer restrained from being able to put the lawless one in the position of persecuting Israel and the church. (2 Thess)
Yes, I've also thought this, and it makes sense that Michael would be the Restrainer of 2 Thess, and fits timewise. As he now protects the Israelites, it stands to reason that he would have to leave them un-protected in order for them to enter into "Jacob's trouble" and exposed to the persecution of the Beast.

Tanya~
Sep 16th 2008, 06:20 AM
OK, I see what you're saying...but I think that Rev 12:10 makes it clear that Satan, prior to being cast out in the "war in heaven", is in the heaven where God is, because he is accusing us before God (night and day).

Satan has access both to God's throne, where he accuses the brethren, and to earth, where he goes to and fro and walks up and down on it (Job 1, 2). He was cast out of his position that he previously held in heaven, but he did not lose access to go before God.


So if the Devil was indeed in Heaven, then his angels were also there with him, because they get cast "to earth" at the same time he does.

The devil is in the heavenly places still, even now. He fell from his position that he held before he sinned, but he did not lose access to God where he goes to accuse us. It is after he loses the war against Michael that he is cast out and no longer permitted to accuse the brethren before God.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I also find it hard to swallow that Satan gets Cast out twice (whether the first time was at the time of Christ or some un-defined time before)

This passage implies that very thing. The first casting out was from his exalted position, when he drew 1/3 of the angels with him in rebellion. The second was from his free access throughout the heavenlies. Now he is restricted to earth where he will wreak havoc.


But I can't see how they're cast down "to earth" if the battle occurs "on earth". And I also believe that the war must occur in Heaven [where God is] for the reasons I've stated before.

The battle is in heaven (v 7). After this battle, they are cast down to the earth. Satan will no longer have access to heaven after that, and all activity will be restricted to things on the earth.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 06:57 AM
One great Post!!!

By the way, I believe the man child is Israel. I will have to go look that up. Some people think it is the church, but I believe the man child is Israel.The woman is Israel and the manchild is Jesus.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 06:58 AM
See Zachariah 12:10

I change my view. The man child is Christ....the Woman is Israel. If the woman were Mary then we would have a dragon at the nativity. Instead, Satan, the Dragon has always hated Israel because God loves them.....also they were the nation from whom the Messiah came.

In the last days....when Christ comes back the second time, the remnant of Israel will look on him whom they have pierced. They will see the Messiah with the nail prints in his hand.Oh, sorry, I shoulda kept reading before jumping in. :thumbsup:

The explanation for the symbolism of the woman is in Genesis 37:9-11 - "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?" His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind."

Jacob interprets the symbol for us as himself and his sons - the forerunners of Israel. The twelfth star would be Joseph who had the dream.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 07:03 AM
It's faithful OT Jews and the Christian Church collectively. Ephesians 2 makes it clear that Jesus has removed the ethnic division between Jews and Gentiles.And how did you objectively arrive at the conclusion that there's a connection between Revelation 12 and Ephesians 2?

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 07:10 AM
The "man child's" description of being the one that will "rule all nations with a rod of iron" is a clear description of Jesus Christ. However, in the context of Rev 12, it is very strenuous to have Jesus represent the man child that is caught up to heaven.

It would seem that the "war in heaven" that results in Satan's fall would have to occur [just] prior to Christ's birth.I don't agree at all. The war in heaven takes place just prior to the midpoint of the seven-year Tribulation. It has no bearing on the manchild being Jesus, which has no stretch to it at all.
And we are told in the same Chapter that Satan is....Rev 12:10 for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. So the implication of verse 10 is that Satan IS in heaven, until his fall, accusing us.He has access to heaven - not the same thing. After the war, his access is cut off.
So either we haven't had an accuser in heaven for 2000 years, being "cast out of Heaven" means that Satan can still come and go as he pleases, or "the war in heaven" is a future event.

If the "war in heaven" is future (which I believe) then the "man child" in Rev 12 couldn't be Jesus and fit in the time-line of events here.I don't see why not.
If the "war in heaven" is past, prior to Christ's birth, then Rev 12 is very clumsy and would seem to jump back and forth in time in a non-sensical way.

I have a theory about who the "man-child" could be - but it's also pretty clumsy - the 144,000 Jewish Remnant. Here's why I think it's a possibility.

1) they are born from the woman [Israel]
2) they are "caught up" to heaven (they appear with Christ on Mt. Sion during the trib....[Rev 14:1]Um, Mt. Sion is on earth.
3) they are referred to as "firstfruits" [Rev 14:4], and also Jesus is referred to as "firstfruits" in [1Co 15:20] in a funny way that makes him sound like more than one person.
4) the remaining Jews (remnant of her seed) remain behind to be persecuted by the Beast during the trib....
(next part requires the 144,000 to also be the "bride of christ")
5) Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
6) During Christ's "rod of iron" rulership they "follow him where-ever he goes" [Rev 14:4] [Rth 1:16-17 are examples of this kind of wifely devotion]

and some more I forgot LOL...anyway, I realize it's a tough sell, but I've had a lot of trouble with Rev 12 because of the man-child "obviously" representing Jesus, and I've searched and never seen any satisfactory interpretations of Rev 12....I guess I don't understand why Jesus being the manchild should be a problem - it was obvious to me the very first time I read Revelation when I was a kid.
So, according to my theory, the "man-child" is Jesus's Bride [144,000] - and they are "one flesh" - so also to rule jointly (as a queen) with a "rod of iron" when the time comesThe bride of Christ is the Church, including Gentiles - not Israel.

crush
Sep 16th 2008, 02:18 PM
The devil is in the heavenly places still, even now. He fell from his position that he held before he sinned, but he did not lose access to God where he goes to accuse us. It is after he loses the war against Michael that he is cast out and no longer permitted to accuse the brethren before God.



He has access to heaven - not the same thing. After the war, his access is cut off.

Yeah, this is the part I don't get, and I don't see any explanation offered by either of you. Where does "being cast out" of heaven mean that Satan can still come and go as he pleases? Not much of a "casting out" if you ask me LOL. I understand that Satan can still move between Heaven and Earth as he pleases, so I don't need that explained, just why he [and his angels] can go back to Heaven at all after he fell?

We have an example of some angels that "left" heaven before in Jud 1:6, and it seems like the consequence of an Angel "leaving" heaven in this passage is to be removed totally from the playing field. To be put in prison in the earth. So why didn't this also apply to the 1/3 Angels that Satan's tail dragged down, if this event has already happened? Because they clearly are "with" Satan in heaven during the "war in heaven" and get cast down with him [Rev 12:9]. Unless of course this is a whole new crop of angels, and separate from the 1/3, that stand with Satan during the [2nd] casting out.

Tanya~
Sep 16th 2008, 04:27 PM
Yeah, this is the part I don't get, and I don't see any explanation offered by either of you. Where does "being cast out" of heaven mean that Satan can still come and go as he pleases?

Revelation 12 doesn't speak of Satan being cast out until after he is overpowered by Michael. Prior to that, we see him drawing 1/3 of the angels to the earth. He has access until after he is cast down.


Not much of a "casting out" if you ask me LOL. I understand that Satan can still move between Heaven and Earth as he pleases, so I don't need that explained, just why he [and his angels] can go back to Heaven at all after he fell?

His fall was from his prior exalted position.

Ezek 28:14-16

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 "By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
NKJV

So he was cast out of that position, but he still has access to the presence of God. He went from being the anointed cherub who covers to the adversary who accuses us before God. Jesus is our Advocate who defends us (1 Jn 2:1). You can see a picture of how this plays out in Zech 3:1-5.

Lisadawn
Sep 16th 2008, 06:29 PM
I like what you said about Satan has lost his position as archangel but still has access to heaven.

I read a book recently on our position in Christ. Imagine this. The cross is between God and Satan. When we are "in Christ" we are on the right side of the cross looking towards Satan. We don't have to fight our own battles because Jesus fights them for us.

Maybe someone else can explain that better. I have to leave for the day but will be back later. This is a very interesting thread.

Lisa

crush
Sep 16th 2008, 11:31 PM
Revelation 12 doesn't speak of Satan being cast out until after he is overpowered by Michael.

Now I believe you are correct. The "tail" (Isa 9:15 .....the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.)
of the dragon drags down the angels

Rev 12:4 corresponds to Dan 8:11.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

I believe that the "tail" of the dragon is a man, not Satan, and Rev 12:4 is referring to the abomination of desolation. Where the "tail" declares that he is God.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And apparantly this Great Boast starts trouble brewing in Heaven, 1/3 Angels are convinced that he (by the power of Satan) is God, and we get a snapshot of what happens in Rev 12:7-9


So he was cast out of that position, but he still has access to the presence of God.Rev 12:4 is a picture of all out rebellion in Heaven, not a simple demotion of Satan. 1/3 of the Angels of Heaven are involved.


He went from being the anointed cherub who covers to the adversary who accuses us before God. Jesus is our Advocate who defends us (1 Jn 2:1). You can see a picture of how this plays out in Zech 3:1-5.Satan became our adversary by his act of deception in the Garden of Eden. Subsequently God's curse of the Serpent intertwined his destiny with ours for all this time, as he was told to "crawl on his belly, and eat the dust of the earth [us]

If you are trying to draw a parallel between Satan becoming our adversary and the fall described in Rev 12:4 then you have to put the time of this event at or before the deception at Eden. It isn't possible that the woman of Rev 12 is Eve, because Eve wasn't with child and wasn't planned to have decendants, until After she was deceived and received her curse from God.

BroRog
Sep 17th 2008, 12:46 AM
12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

This celestial image comes from Joseph's dream found in Genesis 37:9. In that passage we learn that the sun represents Jacob, the moon represents Joseph's mother, and the stars represent Joseph's eleven brothers. This passage incorporates these images into a single figure of a woman, adding a final star to the crown, which fills up the entire set of twelve brothers.

I believe the woman represents the nation of Israel.

and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Micah describes the nation of Israel as if it is a woman in childbirth waiting for the inauguration of a coming new king. I believe this child is the king Jesus.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

Revelation 20:2 reveals that the dragon symbolically represents Satan. Pictured here with seven heads and ten horns, the imagery of heads and horns comes from Daniel, who uses them to symbolize world leaders and world kingdoms. The numbers seven and ten symbolically represent completion as, for instance, seven days form a complete week. Thus, we see Satan ruling over the entire world, as it is in Luke 4.

In Luke 4, he records the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. In that encounter, the devil tempts Jesus with worldwide rule if he would only bow the knee to him saying, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." For this reason, I believe the image of seven heads and ten horns represents the entire world system with all of its governments personified as a dragon.

And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

As seen earlier, the stars represent the sons of Jacob, pictured here as being "thrown down to the earth." Rather than taking this literally, I understand this to be a metaphor representing the approximate number of the sons of Jacob who decided to bow the knee to Rome, the world dominating power contemporary with the writing of Revelation. Scholars say that many in Israel became "Helenized" Jews, adopting Greek culture and abandoning Judaism. Many of the "stars" bowed the knee to the world system and ultimately to the dragon himself.

And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The "red" dragon represents the Idumean (Edom, land of red stone) known as Herod the Great who attempted to kill Jesus by putting to death all the young male children in the villiage of Bethlahem.

And she gave birth to a son, a male [child], who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The image of a king ruling with a rod of Iron comes from such messianic OT passages as Psalm 2. Thus, the male child is the infant Jesus, who grew up to be a man, and was caught up to God. (Acts 2:33)

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she ^had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Jesus warned his disciples to flee Jerusalem, especially when they saw armies surrounding the city. These people took with them the Gospel message, which "nourished" Israel for 3 1/2 years until (in my unsubstantiated opinion) the stoning of Steven when the devil began to persecute the woman again.

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Rather than verse 7 following verse 6 chronologically, this passage represents a recapitulation of Jesus ministry in which Jesus is heard to say, ""I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning." This coincides with the activity of Jesus and his disciples entering the strong man's house to take his property, which pictures Jesus as a stronger man freeing those of us who are slaves of sin. After this we hear a loud voice announce the declaration of salvation.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has [only] a short time."

Since salvation has come to the world, Satan can no longer stand before the judge to accuse the saints of their sin, which the cross has solved. Some people would rather not live than bow the knee to Satan.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male [child]. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she ^was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

A recapitulation of the persecution that took place after the stoning of Stephen. After this, many believing Jews fled the country in search of places of refuge. Those who stayed behind died in the coming war between Rome and the Jews.

And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

The seige of Jerusalem in 68-70AD is pictured as a flood rising like seige mounds up the walls of the city. Thousands of Roman soldiers surrounded the city and laid seige to it, taking 3 1/2 years to finally breach the walls and destroy the temple with a fire. Sadly, many had already died from starvation as the seditious accidently or on purpose burned the food reserves.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 03:12 AM
Yeah, this is the part I don't get, and I don't see any explanation offered by either of you. Where does "being cast out" of heaven mean that Satan can still come and go as he pleases? Not much of a "casting out" if you ask me LOL.He doesn't have access - after the war results in him being cast out, he no longer has access to heaven.
I understand that Satan can still move between Heaven and Earth as he pleases, so I don't need that explained, just why he [and his angels] can go back to Heaven at all after he fell?Because he wasn't cast out when he fell. The casting out of Revelation 12 is still future. His "fall" was in the past.
We have an example of some angels that "left" heaven before in Jud 1:6, and it seems like the consequence of an Angel "leaving" heaven in this passage is to be removed totally from the playing field. To be put in prison in the earth. So why didn't this also apply to the 1/3 Angels that Satan's tail dragged down, if this event has already happened? Because they clearly are "with" Satan in heaven during the "war in heaven" and get cast down with him [Rev 12:9]. Unless of course this is a whole new crop of angels, and separate from the 1/3, that stand with Satan during the [2nd] casting out.The angels spoken of in Jude participated in the crossbreeding sin in Genesis 6.

crush
Sep 17th 2008, 03:31 PM
Because he wasn't cast out when he fell. The casting out of Revelation 12 is still future. His "fall" was in the past

The "fall", where Satan became our adversary happened at the Garden, so yes, that was in the past [Gen 3:24-15] And yes he still had "access" (if you want to call it that) to Heaven after he received his curse.

Rev 12:4 doesn't speak of this event. The only thing that it says is that the Dragon's tail drew down 1/3 of the Angels, and the Dragon stood before the Woman ready to devour her "man-child".

This is related to Dan 8:10, where the "little horn" [tail] casts down the angels of Heaven by his boasting. Which happens in the future.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And it's related to Rev 12:13, which is also future.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

The Devil and the 1/3 angels are cast out of Heaven at the same time.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So if the angels are cast out in Rev 12:4, Satan is also cast out with them.


.The angels spoken of in Jude participated in the crossbreeding sin in Genesis 6.I don't disagree that these Angels in Jude 1:6 are not the 1/3 angels of Rev 12:4

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 04:45 PM
The "fall", where Satan became our adversary happened at the Garden, so yes, that was in the past [Gen 3:24-15] And yes he still had "access" (if you want to call it that) to Heaven after he received his curse.

Rev 12:4 doesn't speak of this event. The only thing that it says is that the Dragon's tail drew down 1/3 of the Angels, and the Dragon stood before the Woman ready to devour her "man-child".

This is related to Dan 8:10, where the "little horn" [tail] casts down the angels of Heaven by his boasting. Which happens in the future.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And it's related to Rev 12:13, which is also future.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

The Devil and the 1/3 angels are cast out of Heaven at the same time.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So if the angels are cast out in Rev 12:4, Satan is also cast out with them.

I don't disagree that these Angels in Jude 1:6 are not the 1/3 angels of Rev 12:4Your whole premise is based on the idea that the "starry host" of Daniel 8 are the same as the stars in Revelation. The problem with that theory is that the "little horn" in Daniel 8 is said to trample on the starry host. A man would not be capable of trampling on angels, so the starry host must be something other than angels. The most common explanation I've seen is that the starry host are either Israel or the saints. Either explanation makes more sense to me.

crush
Sep 17th 2008, 07:03 PM
Your whole premise is based on the idea that the "starry host" of Daniel 8 are the same as the stars in Revelation. The problem with that theory is that the "little horn" in Daniel 8 is said to trample on the starry host. A man would not be capable of trampling on angels, so the starry host must be something other than angels.

The deceiving boast is the trampling. By believing the boast, the angel's destruction and eternal separation from God is certain. The responsibility for the Angel's damnation is just being put where it should be, on the dragon/beast.


The most common explanation I've seen is that the starry host are either Israel or the saints. Either explanation makes more sense to me.

I don't see how either of your choices is a possibility. Are you saying "Israel" or "the saints" somehow go to heaven, become part of the heavenly host, and then get deceived by the little horn, cast back down to earth, and get trampled by him?

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 04:40 AM
The deceiving boast is the trampling. By believing the boast, the angel's destruction and eternal separation from God is certain. The responsibility for the Angel's damnation is just being put where it should be, on the dragon/beast.Wait, you're saying that angels who actually have seen the very throne of God with their own eyes could be deceived by a human who can't even enter heaven alive?
I don't see how either of your choices is a possibility. Are you saying "Israel" or "the saints" somehow go to heaven, become part of the heavenly host, and then get deceived by the little horn, cast back down to earth, and get trampled by him?No, no, they don't go to heaven, you're still thinking of Revelation 12 being merged with Daniel 8. Take Daniel 8 by itself. The starry host of Israel are deceived by the boasting of the little horn. Period.

Meanwhile, 1/3 of the angels in heaven were deceived and fell with Satan at the moment in the past when he initially rebelled against God. Two separate stories.

crush
Sep 18th 2008, 11:55 AM
Wait, you're saying that angels who actually have seen the very throne of God with their own eyes could be deceived by a human who can't even enter heaven alive?
Wait, weren't you just insinuating a minute ago that angels that have actually seen the very throne of God with their own eyes left Heaven because they saw some pretty earth women [who can't enter heaven alive]?

"The angels spoken of in Jude participated in the crossbreeding sin in Genesis 6." - Literalist-Luke


No, no, they don't go to heaven, you're still thinking of Revelation 12 being merged with Daniel 8. Take Daniel 8 by itself. The starry host of Israel are deceived by the boasting of the little horn. Period.I wasn't merging Revelation 12 with Daniel 8. I'm under the impression that to be part of the Heavenly Host, you have to be in heaven.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

inter-linear and literal translations of this verse make it even more clear that we are talking about a heavenly host and not an earthly one.


Meanwhile, 1/3 of the angels in heaven were deceived and fell with Satan at the moment in the past when he initially rebelled against God. Two separate stories.2 separate "casting outs" too. I understand you are using your "Satan still has access to heaven" argument to explain the "first" casting out, but what about the 1/3 angels? Do they still have "access" to heaven after they were cast out in Rev 12:4? Because we see that Satan also has Angels with him in 12:7.

so, either the 1/3 angels that were "cast out" in Rev 12:4 re-attack heaven in Rev 12:7,

or the angels in Rev 12:4 are a completely separate group than the angels in Rev 12:7

I have a lot of trouble finding evidence of either one of these scenarios.

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 12:24 PM
"The angels spoken of in Jude participated in the crossbreeding sin in Genesis 6."

I'm very surprised to see you've bought into this 'Demon-seed' human/angel procreation occultic myth that is being forced into Gen 6.

Genesis 6 only involves humans. No other created order is having sex and making offspring in that passage. Offspring only come from Humans procreating with Humans.

That teaching is Bringing occultic myths from other false pagan religions and attempting to introduce them into Christianity.

Reconsider bro.

crush
Sep 18th 2008, 12:55 PM
Offspring only come from Humans procreating with Humans.


Nevermind --- off topic

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 03:40 PM
I'm very surprised to see you've bought into this 'Demon-seed' human/angel procreation occultic myth that is being forced into Gen 6.

Genesis 6 only involves humans. No other created order is having sex and making offspring in that passage. Offspring only come from Humans procreating with Humans.

That teaching is Bringing occultic myths from other false pagan religions and attempting to introduce them into Christianity.

Reconsider bro.I've actually posted on this topic in other threads many times over the last several months. Guess you just didn't see it. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif Better save it for another thread, however. :D

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 03:44 PM
Wait, weren't you just insinuating a minute ago that angels that have actually seen the very throne of God with their own eyes left Heaven because they saw some pretty earth women [who can't enter heaven alive]?

"The angels spoken of in Jude participated in the crossbreeding sin in Genesis 6." - Literalist-LukeThey were on a mission to contaminate the seed of humanity so as to nullify the Messiah of Genesis 3:15 before He could appear.
I wasn't merging Revelation 12 with Daniel 8. I'm under the impression that to be part of the Heavenly Host, you have to be in heaven.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

inter-linear and literal translations of this verse make it even more clear that we are talking about a heavenly host and not an earthly one.

2 separate "casting outs" too. I understand you are using your "Satan still has access to heaven" argument to explain the "first" casting out, but what about the 1/3 angels? Do they still have "access" to heaven after they were cast out in Rev 12:4? Because we see that Satan also has Angels with him in 12:7.They still have access to the Throne today, just like Satan. After the war of Revelation 12 occurs, their access will be cut off just like Satan's.
so, either the 1/3 angels that were "cast out" in Rev 12:4 re-attack heaven in Rev 12:7,

or the angels in Rev 12:4 are a completely separate group than the angels in Rev 12:7

I have a lot of trouble finding evidence of either one of these scenarios.The war in heaven is still completely future, from my perspective. And I'll agree there isn't a lot of evidence either way, hence the constant ongoing discussions about it, such as we are having here. :)

crush
Sep 18th 2008, 09:34 PM
They still have access to the Throne today, just like Satan. After the war of Revelation 12 occurs, their access will be cut off just like Satan's.

Okay, so, the [first casting] out of heaven for Satan and his Angels still allowed them to return to heaven as they pleased. In much the same way as not casting them out at all would allow them to have access to heaven LOL.


The war in heaven is still completely future, from my perspective. And I'll agree there isn't a lot of evidence either way, hence the constant ongoing discussions about it, such as we are having here.The two choices I gave above aren't the only alternatives. The third alternative is that Rev 12:4 and 12:7 are the same event. One from the perspective of Earth [beast] and one from the perspective of Heaven [Satan]. There is evidence to support this alternative, that's why I believe it LOL.

Nice discussion, thx....ttyl.

Tanya~
Sep 18th 2008, 09:43 PM
Okay, so, the [first casting] out of heaven for Satan and his Angels still allowed them to return to heaven as they pleased. In much the same way as not casting them out at all would allow them to have access to heaven LOL.

The first one is losing his position that he previously held, not losing access. The angels that followed him also lost their positions. But they could still appear before the Lord. It's like if you get fired from your job at a store, but you can still go into the store.

Jude
Sep 18th 2008, 11:16 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/phew.gif

Partaker of Christ
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:22 PM
They were on a mission to contaminate the seed of humanity so as to nullify the Messiah of Genesis 3:15 before He could appear.They still have access to the Throne today, just like Satan. After the war of Revelation 12 occurs, their access will be cut off just like Satan's.The war in heaven is still completely future, from my perspective. And I'll agree there isn't a lot of evidence either way, hence the constant ongoing discussions about it, such as we are having here. :)

There are at least three heavens according to scripture.
I would doubt they would be in (or have access to) the highest heaven, as there can be no sin or evil there.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Perhaps they have been cast from a higher heaven, to the lowest heaven (the air). Perhaps they will one day be cast, from the lowest heaven to the earth.

David Taylor
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:32 PM
so that explains mosquitos!

vinsight4u8
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:39 PM
I believe the war with Michael's angels is to occur in the endtime. What bugs me is - John writes and writes and every now and then tells how he sees a mighty angel do something and or speak.
So how does John know a mighty angel when he sees one show up?
Are they from the battle of chapter 12?
as in were in Michael's army

What would an angel have to do to be considered mighty?

Rev. 12 is where John began to write his first time of seeing a wonder.

In Rev. 12 is where John sees the second wonder - a dragon, then later he writes about that same fallen angel again - as the dragon.


How about the angel of Rev. 14:17 19-20 with a sharp sickle that thrusts it into the earth and gathers the vine of the earth -. Is he a mighty angel?

vinsight4u8
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:48 PM
Rev.12:10 is telling us that till Satan is cast from heaven - where he was accusing the brethren that he then gets cast down to persecute - there will not be salvation.

V10
"And I heard a loud voice, saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,...for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
"They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb..."

The "they" bunch is on the earth - being spoken about by those in heaven.

The devil then has
five months over Israel - the 5th trumpet time,
and she flees to the wilderness, where she is then fed for the 1260 days of the great tribulation.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:50 AM
so that explains mosquitos!So all we need to repel the forces of evil is a can of Off? Man, I'm headin' for the pest-control aisle at Wal-Mart! :lol:

wesand24
Oct 15th 2008, 08:28 PM
:rofl:
so that explains mosquitos!

That made me tickle!!! LOL