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White Spider
Sep 11th 2008, 09:06 PM
A Muslim, a Christian, a Jew.

Three Women Search for Understanding.

They started "The Faith Club" based on interfaith-relations and learning to accept others despite their faith.

Faith Clubs are popping up all over the U.S. now and really growing in number.

Could this seemingly innocent step be a step towards a single world religion?

I doubt that is the agenda of these women, but could they have accidentally began a conditioning of the Western cultures to accept each others faiths and eventually merge them all?

I personally feel "The Faith Club" is bad news.

What do you all think?

Click on this link to learn more about "The Faith Club" (http://www.thefaithclub.com/) if you don't know much about them.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/074329047X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

IPet2_9
Sep 11th 2008, 09:22 PM
IMO, they seem to be starting to cross the line into being yoked together with unbelievers. Also, I am concerned about having to make various compromises about sharing your faith so that you can unify with women of other religions in this way. It's the same as the problem we face with this alleged "Judeo-Christian alliance": we fellowship with Jews, support Israel with them, pay their plane ticket to fly to Israel, donate to the Jewish community center, etc. etc. etc.--knowing that if we dared broach the subject of Christ, we would risk alienating them. But in so doing, we are actually saying it's okay for them not to accept Christ. And it's not okay.

I am all for peace and understanding between the religions, but that is one thing I would watch out for.

White Spider
Sep 11th 2008, 09:33 PM
I feel very much the same, there is a fuzzy line there but I feel this book and "Faith Clubs" cross that line . . . it seems a little too accepting of each other's faiths.

My heart's Desire
Sep 11th 2008, 11:12 PM
ALL I could see was "RELIGION", religion, religion. Funny thing is if I wanted to not to offend another faith, then I'd call it religion too. Religion is real easy to talk about, but when you talk about the ONLY way to Salvation...well, that's a whole nuther story right?

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 04:28 AM
I'm all for Christian/Jewish denominations fellowshipping like that, but anything else is satan.

I really can't see any harmony aside from not talking about religion at all.

David Taylor
Sep 17th 2008, 09:34 PM
After reading some excerpts from the link, the lady who is portrayed as a Christian doesn't sound like one to me. Some of the things she says don't align with the Bible or a true Christian worldview.

She sounds more like a Ba'hai, one who embraces all paths to the top of the mountain as true and valid; from a watered-down Christianity that is all embracing and welcoming of other religions with no foundation.

White Spider
Sep 17th 2008, 09:58 PM
After reading some excerpts from the link, the lady who is portrayed as a Christian doesn't sound like one to me. Some of the things she says don't align with the Bible or a true Christian worldview.

She sounds more like a Ba'hai, one who embraces all paths to the top of the mountain as true and valid; from a watered-down Christianity that is all embracing and welcoming of other religions with no foundation.

I felt much the same way, the main reason I fear this seemingly noble group . . . I fear this Club is spreading the idea there is multiple paths to God, which is the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

bennie
Sep 17th 2008, 10:43 PM
I'm all for Christian/Jewish denominations fellowshipping like that, but anything else is satan.

I really can't see any harmony aside from not talking about religion at all.

joe,

on what basis do you call them satan? the fact that it is false religion?
if hindu is false on the basis that it does not except Christ, or Muslim is false becouse they dont except Christ, then Judiasm is false to. They do not respect or except that Christ is the one and only Savior. The Jews to this day reject Christ.

If one is satan, surely the other is to. just my thoughts
bennie

My heart's Desire
Sep 18th 2008, 05:02 AM
I felt much the same way, the main reason I fear this seemingly noble group . . . I fear this Club is spreading the idea there is multiple paths to God, which is the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.I know there are different opinions of who can fall away but yet I feel this is part of the whole falling away of the last days. No one has a problem talking "religion" and getting everyone to accept all religion and not attack it, is a way to water down the truth and escape persecution for faith. I feel this is becoming more and more widespread each day to the point that indeed soon to stand up for one's faith will seem to be an attack on another's "religion" and I believe will lead to more persecution for those who "don't blend into" the "you have to accept all religion" that is spreading across the land. Not to mention stepping on a person's freedom of religion.
To stand up for the truth will immediately make one an outcast as the acceptance thing comes more and more into being.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 05:07 AM
What I would do is ask them those same hard questions. And there's a right answer and a wrong answer. If they gave the right answer, I would actually be okay with this.

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 05:09 AM
joe,

on what basis do you call them satan? the fact that it is false religion?
if hindu is false on the basis that it does not except Christ, or Muslim is false becouse they dont except Christ, then Judiasm is false to. They do not respect or except that Christ is the one and only Savior. The Jews to this day reject Christ.

If one is satan, surely the other is to. just my thoughts
bennie

Well the only other "religion" that worships the God that we do is Judaism. The LORD himself said that he will make them jealous by giving salvation to the Gentiles. There are only Jews and Gentiles in this world. I am a Gentile.

The LORD does not talk about Islam at all, so it's a false religion from satan. I'm not a student of Islamic studies but some quick research online showed me that "Allah" is a moon god.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 05:42 AM
There are only Jews and Gentiles in this world.

"In this world" being the operative word.

1 Peter 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=2&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.


I am not Gentile.

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 12:10 PM
Well the only other "religion" that worships the God that we do is Judaism.

Not according to the Scriptures...

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

I John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Mark 11:23 He that is not with me is against me

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 01:17 PM
Not according to the Scriptures...

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

I John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Mark 11:23 He that is not with me is against me

Well then it makes it worse off for everyone. However, God hasn't forgotten about them.

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 01:57 PM
Well then it makes it worse off for everyone. However, God hasn't forgotten about them.

God hasn't forgotten about any human being.

The Lord is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. " Galatians 3:22

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life" John 6:37

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 04:14 PM
God hasn't forgotten about any human being.

The Lord is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. " Galatians 3:22

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life" John 6:37


I never said he forgot about anyone else. I was referring to their covenant.

bennie
Sep 18th 2008, 04:22 PM
"Well the only other "religion" that worships the God that we do is Judaism."

but they dont worship the same God as us. Jesus is our savior, they reject that notion. They rejected Him in the desert, when they where in the promised land and when he came unto his own.

"The LORD himself said that he will make them jealous by giving salvation to the Gentiles. There are only Jews and Gentiles in this world. I am a Gentile."

Joe, ask yourself what the definition of a gentile is. A gentile is NOT a person who was not born of the jewish race. A gentile is a person who does not have the knowledge of God and/or Jesus. You have the knowledge that there is a God, you are not considerd a gentile any more.

"The LORD does not talk about Islam at all, so it's a false religion from satan. I'm not a student of Islamic studies but some quick research online showed me that "Allah" is a moon god.

i am not disagreing on the fact that islam is false, but if you are going to judge a religion whith a set of standerds, surely you use the same standerds to judge all religions?

bennie

bennie
Sep 18th 2008, 04:24 PM
i am not disagreing on the fact that islam is false, but if you are going to judge a religion whith a set of standerds, surely you use the same standerds to judge all religions?

bennie


whell, i just made a hash of trying to multiquote. sorry. i posted with in you post

bennie

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 04:37 PM
i am not disagreing on the fact that islam is false, but if you are going to judge a religion whith a set of standerds, surely you use the same standerds to judge all religions?

bennie

I don't know how to state it any better than anything other than Jesus Christ being the son of God and dying for our sins, is false teaching.

White Spider
Sep 18th 2008, 05:18 PM
I know there are different opinions of who can fall away but yet I feel this is part of the whole falling away of the last days. No one has a problem talking "religion" and getting everyone to accept all religion and not attack it, is a way to water down the truth and escape persecution for faith. I feel this is becoming more and more widespread each day to the point that indeed soon to stand up for one's faith will seem to be an attack on another's "religion" and I believe will lead to more persecution for those who "don't blend into" the "you have to accept all religion" that is spreading across the land. Not to mention stepping on a person's freedom of religion.

To stand up for the truth will immediately make one an outcast as the acceptance thing comes more and more into being.

I very much agree that this "New Age Christianity of Love and Acceptance" is part of the falling away.

It's not the truth, just the nice stuff . . . It seems more and more people use religion to feel good, to find a purpose. People looking for religion are really no longer looking for truth, but happiness . . . Most religions can make you feel good, sin can make you feel good . . .

The biggest problem is that many churches teach this New Age Christianity and I feel this is part of the falling away.

bennie
Sep 18th 2008, 05:19 PM
i am not disagreing on the fact that islam is false, but if you are going to judge a religion whith a set of standerds, surely you use the same standerds to judge all religions?

bennie


I don't know how to state it any better than anything other than Jesus Christ being the son of God and dying for our sins, is false teaching.

then you would agree that judiasm is a false teaching (religion)

bennie

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 05:24 PM
The biggest problem is that many churches teach this New Age Christianity and I feel this is part of the falling away.

I think that is the SECOND biggest problem. The biggest problem, IMO, is where the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction: where we are so averse to other religions than we mount crusades against each other. Our differences in religion are causes for debate--not war. We fight with the Bible, with kindness, with prayer--not with missiles and bullets. The reality of this world is, too many bullets are flying on the account of religion, and something needs to be done to stop that. The Faith Club could well be an attempt at that.

White Spider
Sep 18th 2008, 06:37 PM
I think that is the SECOND biggest problem. The biggest problem, IMO, is where the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction: where we are so averse to other religions than we mount crusades against each other. Our differences in religion are causes for debate--not war. We fight with the Bible, with kindness, with prayer--not with missiles and bullets. The reality of this world is, too many bullets are flying on the account of religion, and something needs to be done to stop that. The Faith Club could well be an attempt at that.

I don't see any "Christians" fighting to spread Christianity, it's the extremists, who are not even true Muslims that are fighting on account of religion . . .

I don't know where you think a religion is crusading, because any true Muslim will tell you the terrorists are not Muslims, extremists are to Islam as Mormons are to Christianity . . . Extremists are the closest thing to bullets flying over religion, but then the Faith Club is in the wrong country if they are trying to stop war, they need to stop the Extremists, not the U.S.

And I don't see the Faith Club as an attempt to stop war, at least not an effective one . . . and I'd rather have war and truth, than peace and deceit!

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 07:27 PM
then you would agree that judiasm is a false teaching (religion)

bennie

What do you want to hear exactly? I've explained myself quite clear in these posts.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 07:33 PM
I don't see any "Christians" fighting to spread Christianity,

"Christians" are fighting to run the Palestinians off their forefathers' lands and establish "Israel". The resemblance to the Crusades is quite striking.



And I don't see the Faith Club as an attempt to stop war, at least not an effective one . . . and I'd rather have war and truth, than peace and deceit!

It's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. It's like you accept that they're Muslim or Jewish, but at the same time you don't. But like I said, I really don't know for sure; I would have to hear it from them.

My heart's Desire
Sep 18th 2008, 07:39 PM
I feel this one of those areas Christians need training in, myself included. What is acceptance and respect for what another believes and how far does one take it. We run into all kinds of people of many faiths. We are to love them and NOT compromise what we believe in the process. Many times, I've accepted that a person believes a certain way, and I accept them as a person, but at the same time you feel compelled to let them know in some way that you do not agree with their belief and you will not compromise your belief, by accepting theirs.
I'm thinking the trend is to get people to accept others faith in such a way that one can't oppose it, and putting forth the Gospel of Christ indeed opposes many religions. The Bible promises persecution to those who stand up for Christ. What does one do the day you HAVE to tell someone you accept their religion and you are not to say one thing to oppose it in any way without consequenses. I believe that day will soon be upon us.
Still we must love the person as Christ loves. Indeed they DO have the freedom to believe as they do just as we at one time also had that freedom to believe or not believe. I think that is one thing we do have to do is (respect, acknowledge?)they do have the freedom to have the faith they have.
Anyway, I believe the times are upon us that we need instruction in sharing our faith in the midst of all these circumstances. I'm reminded of the time, Paul told the pagans he saw the many gods they worshiped, but he still ended with telling them about the One True God.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 07:51 PM
Paul told the pagans he saw the many gods they worshiped, but he still ended with telling them about the One True God.

This was a fascinating story. He told them about the "unknown god", that they had made a statue to. He took the time to learn their beliefs and see where they were coming from. And he wound up finding God in their own beliefs. Fascinating.

My heart's Desire
Sep 18th 2008, 07:55 PM
This was a fascinating story. He told them about the "unknown god", that they had made a statue to. He took the time to learn their beliefs and see where they were coming from. And he wound up finding God in their own beliefs. Fascinating.
Yes, more or less my point, except that in the end he pointed out their error. He acknowledged the religions they had, but didn't accept their "religion".
They knew there was a god only they had so many man made ones, they didn't KNOW the one true God.

White Spider
Sep 18th 2008, 09:20 PM
"Christians" are fighting to run the Palestinians off their forefathers' lands and establish "Israel". The resemblance to the Crusades is quite striking.

It is the Israeli's forefathers land as well . . . and we are actually trying to make them share the land. It just so happens neither wants to share right now so we are backing Israel. And I fail to see the Crusading resemblance, we are not trying to destroy and fight back the Muslims, we are trying to bring peace to the region, granted unsuccessfully so far.



It's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. It's like you accept that they're Muslim or Jewish, but at the same time you don't. But like I said, I really don't know for sure; I would have to hear it from them.

Not sure what you meant here . . . I don't recognize extremists as Muslims . . . just as I do not recognize Mormons as Christian.

They are considered Muslim extremists, by I do not consider them Muslim myself.

In America we have Christian Extremists, but I don't recognize them as Christian . . . they have taken the Bible the wrong way. And the Extremists have taken the Qur'an the wrong way.

It's like they are reading the story of "Goldie Locks and the Three Bears" - But when they tell the story, it's "Little Red Riding Hood and The Three Bears."

Extremists are not Muslim . . . Israel Palestine Issues are about Peace, not us pushing religion . . .

So again, I see no religious bullets flying anywhere.

RevLogos
Sep 21st 2008, 12:40 AM
I don't see any "Christians" fighting to spread Christianity, it's the extremists, who are not even true Muslims that are fighting on account of religion . . .

I don't know where you think a religion is crusading, because any true Muslim will tell you the terrorists are not Muslims, extremists are to Islam as Mormons are to Christianity . . . Extremists are the closest thing to bullets flying over religion, but then the Faith Club is in the wrong country if they are trying to stop war, they need to stop the Extremists, not the U.S.


I urge you, and every Christian, to read the Qur'an. At least get through the first 5 Suras, and possibly Sura 9.

The Qur'an very clearly spells out enmity between Muslims and Non Muslims - Christians and Jews in particular. Christians and Jews are cursed by God and MUST be subjugated, converted or killed. There is nothing one can do to guarantee going to paradise except dying in Jihad. In many countries, Muslim children are taught from a very young age to hate Christians, Jews, and any other non-believers. Their worldview divides the world into the House of Islam, and the House of War.

Really, read it. Pray beforehand for understanding, and pray after. Don't read too much at once for it will suck the spirit out of you.

Here is a good link to an English translation:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

You need tasfir also - commentary, by Muslim scholars (don't read a non-Muslim's opinion until you know enough to form your own opinions). Here is a good link to well respected Muslim commentary:

http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp

RevLogos
Sep 21st 2008, 12:50 AM
Not sure what you meant here . . . I don't recognize extremists as Muslims . . . just as I do not recognize Mormons as Christian.

They are considered Muslim extremists, by I do not consider them Muslim myself.


A better analogy is this: Muslims who are not filled with hatred to Christians and Jews are like the millions of lightweight backslidden lukewarm Christians in the west who don't know the trinity from the tribulations.

Muslims who know their religion, what we might call fundamentalists, are bound by Allah to hate Christians and Jews, and to work for the establishment of a global Caliphate, by any means, to install Sharia Law (Islamic Law) everywhere, eliminating secular laws and freedoms.

Muslims who engage in terrorism are not some separate sect analogous to Mormons and Christians. They know what Allah commands.

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 01:22 AM
I urge you, and every Christian, to read the Qur'an. At least get through the first 5 Suras, and possibly Sura 9.

I would also encourage every Christian to study Talmud as well. It's got more than its own share of hatred for Gentiles as well.

I really think the term "extremist" is the correct one. Those who adhere extremely to their faith are causing some violent actions. That means Muslim terrorism, Jewish terrorism, abortion clinic bombings. But we all know that "Christian extremism" is not violent by any means, any more than devout Shiia Islam is. In fact, one thing I really hate about the term "religious extremism" is, that's precisely what I want to be. I WANT to be extremely Christian--and prefereably not persecuted for it. Let's get the moderate majority, and thus the cooler heads, to prevail through it all.

bennie
Sep 21st 2008, 05:02 AM
I would also encourage every Christian to study Talmud as well. It's got more than its own share of hatred for Gentiles as well.

I really think the term "extremist" is the correct one. Those who adhere extremely to their faith are causing some violent actions. That means Muslim terrorism, Jewish terrorism, abortion clinic bombings. But we all know that "Christian extremism" is not violent by any means, any more than devout Shiia Islam is. In fact, one thing I really hate about the term "religious extremism" is, that's precisely what I want to be. I WANT to be extremely Christian--and prefereably not persecuted for it. Let's get the moderate majority, and thus the cooler heads, to prevail through it all.



both the quran and talmud is great reading to understand the way of thinking behind the respective people.
bennie

White Spider
Sep 21st 2008, 05:43 AM
I do not know which Qur'an you all are reading, but it's obviously altered in some way from what I have read.

2:62 - Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Qur’an 2:190-193 - Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not aggress. Surely God does not love the aggressors. And fight them where you come upon them, and send them out from where they have sent you out, for persecution is a worse thing than fighting. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) unless they fight you there, but if they fight you, then fight them back. That is the reward of the rejectors. Then if they cease, so God is All-Forgiving, Gentle. And fight them until there is no more persecution and the religion is for God. But if they cease, so let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers.

4:90 - Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

5:32 - On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

5:69 - Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.

5:82 - Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

8:61 - But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

17:33 - Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).

25:63 - And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!"

A quote not readily seen in the American media is of the Prophet Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, “We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad,” the far more vital and crucial task of extinguishing transgression from one’s own society and one’s own heart. (Riyadh-us-Saliheen)

It is narrated on the authority of ‘Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children. (Book 019, Number 4319 Sahih Muslim)

Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)].

This is from Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, Ruhani Khaza'in

No true Muslim has ever believed that Islam should be spread by the sword. Islam has always been propagated through it's inherent qualities. Those who, calling themselves Muslim seek to spread Islam by means of the sword are not aware of its inherent qualities and their conduct resembles the conduct of wild beasts. (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, Ruhani Khaza'in, vol. 15, p. 167, footnote, 1902)

I think now I will repeat an extremist is not a Muslim . . . they have greatly twisted the words of the Qur'an, Hadith, and other Muslim authoritative books.

RevLogos
Sep 21st 2008, 03:10 PM
I do not know which Qur'an you all are reading, but it's obviously altered in some way from what I have read.

I think now I will repeat an extremist is not a Muslim . . . they have greatly twisted the words of the Qur'an, Hadith, and other Muslim authoritative books.


Christians are terrorists too. Jesus advocates violence, killing non-believers by the sword. It's in the Bible.

Mat 10:34: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword."

It takes time to understand what Jesus really meant does it not? Can any of us understand what it means to be Christian by cherry-picking a few verses?

No my friend. Satan is the great deceiver. You have been deceived. I ask Christians to actually read large parts of the Qur'an, because in reading we come to understand the overall worldview of the religious Muslim. After a while one will see the worldview is clearly and unmistakably one of hatred and enmity toward non-Muslims. Cherry picking verses can promote both sides, but always leads to deception. This is part of the brilliance of Satan's work.

Read the Tasfir. Learn about abrogation. Learn also when the Qur'an refers to Christians and Jews, it splits these into two camps: Those who are actually Muslims and believe in Muhammad and Allah, who deny their Books, who are looked upon more favorably; and those who believe the corrupted versions of their Books - those who are cursed by Allah.

Those "extremists" are simply "fundamentalists". They have twisted nothing.

I can tear this apart verse by verse, and will if needed. As a few quick examples, 5:23: killing is not allowed ONLY for the Christians and Jews. 17:33 Ever wonder what "just cause" is? 5:69 refers to Jews and Christians who believe in Allah. Blowing up oneself in the service of Allah is not considered suicide.

White Spider
Sep 21st 2008, 10:49 PM
Whatever, you seem to have a very twisted bigoted view of Islam and I can see nothing will change your view. It's no wonder so many Muslims hate the Christian Western world, I would too . . . :mad:

RevLogos
Sep 21st 2008, 11:20 PM
Whatever, you seem to have a very twisted bigoted view of Islam and I can see nothing will change your view. It's no wonder so many Muslims hate the Christian Western world, I would too . . . :mad:

I spent much of 2007 studying Islam, studying what Muslims had to say about their own book. I read much of it myself.

I began my study believing as you do, that for some reason, Islam was more easily "hijacked" by people with their own violent agenda. I wanted to know why.

I do not say these things lightly. This is deadly serious business and soon it will be on your doorstep. What I found shocked and stunned me; it was not what I expected. I know the truth is hard to believe. That people reject it without doing their own study does not surprise me. Satan is a master of deception.

This is why I encourage everyone to read it themselves. Don't pick out a few passages here and there, but really read it. As you read ask the Lord for discernment and guidance. He will give it to you.

White Spider
Sep 21st 2008, 11:39 PM
I'll read through it . . . but I have looked into it, I've read what Muslims say . . . and from what I've read they all feel Extremists have changed their beliefs and ruined the name of Islam.

It's the way I feel about Christian Militant groups . . . yeah they believe in the Bible, but they aren't getting it.

But I will read it, though it will likely take me months . . .

bennie
Sep 21st 2008, 11:39 PM
Whatever, you seem to have a very twisted bigoted view of Islam and I can see nothing will change your view. It's no wonder so many Muslims hate the Christian Western world, I would too . . . :mad:

a rough statemant.

ask yourself a question: Do you understand the bible completely from front to back.? I dont. I try to study Gods word. There is patterns and ways by witch God works.
why do i ask this? the way the quran is written is in a similar way. God not only talks about destrucktion for the wicked, He promises it. The quran( and talmud i might ad) is the same. does that make sense??

Do i hate muslims? no i dont. but some of there writing does justify for me to hate them. But God said to love your enemy. I am not writing this because i beliefe that muslims will have a role in the end time. I beliefe they wont. Same ting with the Jews. Read the Talmud, research it. It is scary what they think about Gentiles(All who are not jews) Read there encyclopedias. it is eye opening. Do i hate Jews? No i dont. Same reason as above.

There is a lot off people who hates the muslims, some might ad that it is justified. But it is not eveybody

bennie

White Spider
Sep 21st 2008, 11:52 PM
Yes, but the Bible tells us it is for God to judge . . . not for us. We are not to hate, destroy, etc. We are to spread his word, not by force, but by love.

I have read things, I forget if it was the Hadith or just a commentary that said something like - We (Muslims) are not to spread our religion by the sword, for what is faith if it is brought upon by fear of death?

I mean yeah, if you say believe in my god or die, those who don't strongly believe in their own god will save themselves by saying they believe, but they don't, they just want to live. I have seen many Muslim texts saying similar things.

Taking over by force is not good for any religion, it only guarantees rebellion and resentment towards said religion.

ananias
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:54 AM
I urge you, and every Christian, to read the Qur'an. At least get through the first 5 Suras, and possibly Sura 9.

Here is a good link to an English translation:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

You need tasfir also - commentary, by Muslim scholars (don't read a non-Muslim's opinion until you know enough to form your own opinions). Here is a good link to well respected Muslim commentary:

http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp




Thank you for these links, Revolvr. Much appreciated.

I think we should all be aware that the qu'ran contains parts that teach against hatred of non-muslims as well as parts that teach hatred and killing of Jews, Christians and other non-muslims. It seemed to depend on Mohammad's mood.

The qu'ran is also a thoroughly disjointed book, and it isn't easy to tell which "revelations" were reecived first and which were received last. At least in the Bible we know more or less the time-period each prophet wrote his books.

The Bible remains 100% consistent from beginning to end with its main theme - faith in the Word of God vs unbelief in the Word of God and its consequences, and God's way (and therefore the only way) of saving man from the consequences of his sin - which unfolds gradually through the pages of the Bible, until it is fully revealed through the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son who came into the world for this very purpose and fulfilled everything that had been written about Him, from Gen.3: 15 onwards.

The message of the qu'ran, on the other hand, is completely inconsistent and relies on Mohammad's mood.

We are to love all people - even those who make themselves our enemies - but we are NOT to love THEIR RELIGION. We should have the same concern for them that Jesus does because we KNOW that they are deceived by their religion, and deception is the devil's work - therefore Satan has those who follow Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, etc UTTERLY BOUND in chains of (spiritual) darkness which will NEVER bring them to the Light and the salvation of their souls.

It is OUR job to at least ATTEMPT to reveal the Light to them (but not to force those who refuse to hear, because then they WILL NOT hear).

And we reveal the Light to them by shining the Light (the true and only gospel of their salvation) into their darkness, and we shouldn't EVER punch at the darkness (at their religion) with such people, because punching at the darkness does not reveal the darkness, and only serves to get their backs up against the Light - shining Light into the darkness reveals the darkness. WE share the gospel, period.

But what the Christian woman in "The Faith Club" is dong is neither punching at the darkness nor shining Light into the darkness - she probably hasn't truly seen the Light herself.

ananias

ananias
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:03 PM
I feel this one of those areas Christians need training in, myself included. What is acceptance and respect for what another believes and how far does one take it. We run into all kinds of people of many faiths. We are to love them and NOT compromise what we believe in the process. Many times, I've accepted that a person believes a certain way, and I accept them as a person, but at the same time you feel compelled to let them know in some way that you do not agree with their belief and you will not compromise your belief, by accepting theirs.

I'm thinking the trend is to get people to accept others faith in such a way that one can't oppose it, and putting forth the Gospel of Christ indeed opposes many religions. The Bible promises persecution to those who stand up for Christ. What does one do the day you HAVE to tell someone you accept their religion and you are not to say one thing to oppose it in any way without consequenses.

I believe that day will soon be upon us.

Still we must love the person as Christ loves. Indeed they DO have the freedom to believe as they do just as we at one time also had that freedom to believe or not believe. I think that is one thing we do have to do is (respect, acknowledge?)they do have the freedom to have the faith they have.

Anyway, I believe the times are upon us that we need instruction in sharing our faith in the midst of all these circumstances. I'm reminded of the time, Paul told the pagans he saw the many gods they worshiped, but he still ended with telling them about the One True God.

And where are the teachers in (most of the) churches? We have become just like the Jews of Jesus day - like scattered sheep without shepherds. The shepherds have become interested in rubbish, and hardly interested at all in what Jesus is interested in.

By the way, we should let them know in some way that we do not agree with their belief and that we will not compromise our belief, by accepting theirs.

ananias

My heart's Desire
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:39 AM
And where are the teachers in (most of the) churches? We have become just like the Jews of Jesus day - like scattered sheep without shepherds. The shepherds have become interested in rubbish, and hardly interested at all in what Jesus is interested in.

By the way, we should let them know in some way that we do not agree with their belief and that we will not compromise our belief, by accepting theirs.

ananiasI agree completely. I believe I did say we should make known to them that we will not compromise what we believe.