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Butch5
Sep 12th 2008, 11:40 PM
In discussions on this board I have heard several people speak of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. What exactly do you understand this to be?

ConqueredbyLove
Sep 13th 2008, 12:17 AM
~When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost~

John 19:30


Paid in full!!!!

teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The word "finished" in the above verse means the above.

Everything we need to procure our salvation was purchased for us by Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His precious blood. All of our sins - past, present and future have been forgiven because of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. The debt owed to God, because of our rebellion against Him, has been paid for every single person that has ever lived!

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 13th 2008, 01:17 AM
~When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost~

John 19:30


Paid in full!!!!

teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The word "finished" in the above verse means the above.

Everything we need to procure our salvation was purchased for us by Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His precious blood. All of our sins - past, present and future have been forgiven because of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. The debt owed to God, because of our rebellion against Him, has been paid for every single person that has ever lived!



I agree 100 % with this post.. excellent!

Jesus the Christ did and Accomplished what we could never accomplish... He walked perfectly in His flesh.. as He is God in the flesh.. He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill... Paul states it in Romans...

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


This accomplished by nailing His perfect Sacrafice.. His own Son.. the perfect Lamb... to that bloody tree... Jesus was pure.. He knew no sin.. and the prince of the world had not polluted Him for he had nothing on Jesus and nothing in Jesus.. as He stated before He was arrested.......thus Jesus knew when He was about to give up the ghost.. that He had accomplished what He was SENT to do.... that thru Him and His completed work.. His ministry and His Provisonary death and His subsequent Resurrection from the dead He may thru the power of the Spirit bring His children back to the Father..those who Trust and Believe on His completed work....... those He has known since the Foundation of the world....

thus leading to Pauls explanation in the next verse.....

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When He said ' it is finished'.. it was..... By being the Provisionary sacrafice... the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world... He defeated the one who had the power of death.. that is the devil.. in His death... He triumphed over the wicked principalities and powers that rule this world... He did openly and publicly....He overcame... and is now seated at the Right Hand of the Father...

Humility defeated the one who walked into the throne room full of pride and arrogance saying he was going to be like God and exalt his throne above the stars and above heaven... Pride defeated by Good and Humility... by God Himself.. who is the one who is ONLY GOOD....

WHO IS GOOD? THERE IS NONE GOOD .. BUT GOD HIMSELF.....

Butch5
Sep 13th 2008, 10:27 PM
~When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost~

John 19:30


Paid in full!!!!

teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The word "finished" in the above verse means the above.

Everything we need to procure our salvation was purchased for us by Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His precious blood. All of our sins - past, present and future have been forgiven because of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. The debt owed to God, because of our rebellion against Him, has been paid for every single person that has ever lived!


Hi Connquered,

I have two questions,

1. Where does Scripture say your future sins are forgiven?

2. What is the owed to God?

Butch5
Sep 13th 2008, 10:31 PM
I agree 100 % with this post.. excellent!

Jesus the Christ did and Accomplished what we could never accomplish... He walked perfectly in His flesh.. as He is God in the flesh.. He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill... Paul states it in Romans...

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


This accomplished by nailing His perfect Sacrafice.. His own Son.. the perfect Lamb... to that bloody tree... Jesus was pure.. He knew no sin.. and the prince of the world had not polluted Him for he had nothing on Jesus and nothing in Jesus.. as He stated before He was arrested.......thus Jesus knew when He was about to give up the ghost.. that He had accomplished what He was SENT to do.... that thru Him and His completed work.. His ministry and His Provisonary death and His subsequent Resurrection from the dead He may thru the power of the Spirit bring His children back to the Father..those who Trust and Believe on His completed work....... those He has known since the Foundation of the world....

thus leading to Pauls explanation in the next verse.....

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When He said ' it is finished'.. it was..... By being the Provisionary sacrafice... the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world... He defeated the one who had the power of death.. that is the devil.. in His death... He triumphed over the wicked principalities and powers that rule this world... He did openly and publicly....He overcame... and is now seated at the Right Hand of the Father...

Humility defeated the one who walked into the throne room full of pride and arrogance saying he was going to be like God and exalt his throne above the stars and above heaven... Pride defeated by Good and Humility... by God Himself.. who is the one who is ONLY GOOD....

WHO IS GOOD? THERE IS NONE GOOD .. BUT GOD HIMSELF.....

I agree with most of what you say here, however I think there is more to it.

Thaddaeus
Sep 14th 2008, 12:01 AM
Hi Connquered,

I have two questions,

1. Where does Scripture say your future sins are forgiven?

2. What is the owed to God?


Mr 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

all means past present and future

ConqueredbyLove
Sep 14th 2008, 12:23 AM
Mr 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

all means past present and future


Thank you, so much Pastor Keith!

It is either paid in full which is part of the definition per Strongs I provided or it is only paid in part.

As to the debt we owe to God...we have offended, grieved and angered God so much by our sins. We can never make up for the horrible grief that we have caused God. There is nothing we can do. It has cost Him everything to make up for what we have done to Him. He did pay the cost (paid the debt) because nothing we could ever do or say could pay the cost of how we have offended Him.

Someone had to pay for the cost of how we have offended Him. Our beloved Jesus paid in full the debt we owed to God...

brakelite
Sep 14th 2008, 01:58 AM
In discussions on this board I have heard several people speak of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. What exactly do you understand this to be?
When Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished", He was referring to just one thing. The redemptive price was paid. The human race was now able, through trust in the sacrifice of the Son of God, approach the Father and commune with the Godhead and be accepted as if Christ Himself was in our shoes. We could now be accepted as if we never sinned.
However, for us to extend that phrase "it is finished" to include any other obligation and/or consequence of sin in the life would be grossly misleading and downright dangerous.
The sacrifice of the Lamb in the OT services was merely the first step towards complete entrance into God's promises. The priests then ministered in the sanctuary, just as Christ ministers in the heavenly sanctuary right now, mediating on our behalf and empowering us to overcome sin, the devil, and the world.
While His love and offer of justification is unconditional, justification is just the first step on the road to salvation. We have a part to play: it is in loving and surrendered obedience to God and continuing faith and trust in the blood of the atonement as a cleansing power that we may be freed from the habits, addictions, and propensities to sin that we were all subject to prior to receiving Christ.
Being born again is one thing. To live the new life is quite another, and no less essential to salvation.
The price has been paid. But the work of the cross goes on every day in the lives of believers to cleanse and prepare them for eternal life.

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 02:21 AM
When Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished", He was referring to just one thing. The redemptive price was paid. The human race was now able, through trust in the sacrifice of the Son of God, approach the Father and commune with the Godhead and be accepted as if Christ Himself was in our shoes. We could now be accepted as if we never sinned.
However, for us to extend that phrase "it is finished" to include any other obligation and/or consequence of sin in the life would be grossly misleading and downright dangerous.
The sacrifice of the Lamb in the OT services was merely the first step towards complete entrance into God's promises. The priests then ministered in the sanctuary, just as Christ ministers in the heavenly sanctuary right now, mediating on our behalf and empowering us to overcome sin, the devil, and the world.
While His love and offer of justification is unconditional, justification is just the first step on the road to salvation. We have a part to play: it is in loving and surrendered obedience to God and continuing faith and trust in the blood of the atonement as a cleansing power that we may be freed from the habits, addictions, and propensities to sin that we were all subject to prior to receiving Christ.
Being born again is one thing. To live the new life is quite another, and no less essential to salvation.
The price has been paid. But the work of the cross goes on every day in the lives of believers to cleanse and prepare them for eternal life.

Well said Brakelight!

ConqueredbyLove
Sep 14th 2008, 02:35 AM
The price has been paid. But the work of the cross goes on every day in the lives of believers to cleanse and prepare them for eternal life.

Of course...But that does not mean we are not saved. I agree with much of what you say. But, to me you teach salvation + works which I do not believe.

I will leave it at that to practice my self-moderation

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 02:39 AM
Mr 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

all means past present and future

You may want to look at the context, all means all types of sins shall be forgiven, except the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says "shall be" forgiven. In the post by Conquered, He said sins past, present, and future, "have been" forgiven. Big difference. Future sins have not been forgiven yet.

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 02:41 AM
Thank you, so much Pastor Keith!

It is either paid in full which is part of the definition per Strongs I provided or it is only paid in part.

As to the debt we owe to God...we have offended, grieved and angered God so much by our sins. We can never make up for the horrible grief that we have caused God. There is nothing we can do. It has cost Him everything to make up for what we have done to Him. He did pay the cost (paid the debt) because nothing we could ever do or say could pay the cost of how we have offended Him.

Someone had to pay for the cost of how we have offended Him. Our beloved Jesus paid in full the debt we owed to God...

What is the debt or cost? I agree we have sinned and offeded God by that sin, however I don't see any mention in Scripture of a debt.

MyGod
Sep 14th 2008, 02:47 AM
~When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost~

John 19:30


Paid in full!!!!

teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The word "finished" in the above verse means the above.

Everything we need to procure our salvation was purchased for us by Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His precious blood. All of our sins - past, present and future have been forgiven because of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. The debt owed to God, because of our rebellion against Him, has been paid for every single person that has ever lived!


Amen!! That's exactly what it means.

MyGod
Sep 14th 2008, 03:20 AM
What is the debt or cost? I agree we have sinned and offeded God by that sin, however I don't see any mention in Scripture of a debt.

These are the only two verses I can think of off the top of my head.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We required remission because we owed God. A debt was incurred because of sin. The bible speaks about wages. We had to be paid for our sins. But, Christ paid the price for us. The cost is death. But, we don't owe once we accept his payment in full, the finished work of Christ on Calvary's cross.

MyGod
Sep 14th 2008, 03:24 AM
Future sins have not been forgiven yet.

Butch,

How do you suppose our future sins be forgiven? Christ isn't going to die on the cross again. I'm not being facetious so I hope my question doesn't come across as if I am. I'm just wondering how you think our future sins will be forgiven.

Gospel-Witness
Sep 14th 2008, 07:14 PM
For those that are in Christ there is the promise of 1 John 1:9 that says "But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness." (New Living Translation) This seems to tie into the writings of Peter in his epistle (2 Peter 3:9) where he said that God doesn't want to see anyone perish but instead wants them to come to repentance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that believing Christians stand in a place of grace with God, and as long as we confess our sins and repent we will always have access to forgiveness.

Blessings to all.... ;)

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 07:27 PM
These are the only two verses I can think of off the top of my head.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We required remission because we owed God. A debt was incurred because of sin. The bible speaks about wages. We had to be paid for our sins. But, Christ paid the price for us. The cost is death. But, we don't owe once we accept his payment in full, the finished work of Christ on Calvary's cross.

You are correct, the payment for sins is death and we die. Where is the debt? The wages of sin is death, through our sins we have earned death and everyone of us gets it. I see no Scripture that says Christ paid a debt for us.

9Marksfan
Sep 14th 2008, 08:26 PM
You are correct, the payment for sins is death and we die. Where is the debt? The wages of sin is death, through our sins we have earned death and evryone of us gets it. I see no Scripture that says Christ paid a debt for us.

Forgive us our debts Matt 6:12

Christ's death is seen as a price paid - tetalestai - "It is finished" was what was written on a written debt that had been discharged.

The "record of debt" in Col 2:14 was cancelled by Christ's death - because HE paid it for us! :pp:pp:pp

9Marksfan
Sep 14th 2008, 08:28 PM
Future sins have not been forgiven yet.

Er, weren't ALL our sins future when Christ died?

And if the future ones have NOT been forgiven yet, HOW will they be forgiven? In other words, how will they be atoned for?

ConqueredbyLove
Sep 14th 2008, 08:36 PM
Forgive us our debts Matt 6:12



:hug: Thank you, my brother!

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 09:08 PM
Forgive us our debts Matt 6:12

Christ's death is seen as a price paid - tetalestai - "It is finished" was what was written on a written debt that had been discharged.

The "record of debt" in Col 2:14 was cancelled by Christ's death - because HE paid it for us! :pp:pp:pp

Please show me where a payment is required. The Scripture you posted hits the nail on the head. It says "FORGIVE" us our debts. There are only two ways to reconcile a debt. You can either pay the debt or the debt can be forgiven, it cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive. So if a debt is paid then it cannot be forgiven. However we find throughout the Scriptures God saying I will forgive their sins. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where God says I will accept payment for their sins. Christ died for our sins but it was not a payment to God. He ransomed us from the power of darkness. Scripture says He (Christ) purchased the Church with His own blood, Let me ask you, did He purchase the church from God so that He could give it to God?

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 09:21 PM
Er, weren't ALL our sins future when Christ died?

And if the future ones have NOT been forgiven yet, HOW will they be forgiven? In other words, how will they be atoned for?

Yes, all of our sins were future when Christ died.

They are atoned for by the death of Christ, however that atonement is conditional. If all of our sins were forgiven already why did Peter tell the new believers to be baptized for the remission of sins? Why did Ananias tell Paul to rise and wash away your sins?


Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 22:16 ( KJV ) 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

When you are saved and baptized your past sins are forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

You now have a clean slate, if you commit sins after you are in a covenant relationship with God you must confess your sins for them to be forgiven. So any sins you commit in the future are not yet forgiven, they will be forgiven when you confess them.


1 John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If all of your future sins were forgiven already what would there be to forgive when you confess your sins?

Butch5
Sep 14th 2008, 09:23 PM
Butch,

How do you suppose our future sins be forgiven? Christ isn't going to die on the cross again. I'm not being facetious so I hope my question doesn't come across as if I am. I'm just wondering how you think our future sins will be forgiven.

Hey,

I answered this question in post 22.

MyGod
Sep 15th 2008, 01:29 AM
Yes, all of our sins were future when Christ died.

They are atoned for by the death of Christ, however that atonement is conditional. If all of our sins were forgiven already why did Peter tell the new believers to be baptized for the remission of sins? Why did Ananias tell Paul to rise and wash away your sins?


Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 22:16 ( KJV ) 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

When you are saved and baptized your past sins are forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

You now have a clean slate, if you commit sins after you are in a covenant relationship with God you must confess your sins for them to be forgiven. So any sins you commit in the future are not yet forgiven, they will be forgiven when you confess them.


1 John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If all of your future sins were forgiven already what would there be to forgive when you confess your sins?

I don't believe saints in this dispensation have to be water baptized. That's why Paul said "Christ sent me not to baptize." The mystery program was revealed to him. The mystery that had been kept secret was the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Those saints in Acts did have to be baptized for remission of sins. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit once we are saved.

If the atonement was conditional, that would suggest that we have to do something to go to heaven besides simply believing. Confession is not necessary and neither is asking for forgiveness. Paul knew we would try to continue to work our way into heaven in some form of fashion, that's why he wrote "Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

You can't have it both ways. Either you want to work your way into Heaven (which you can't) or you accept Christ's payment for your sin debt.

If someone on their death bed committed a sin and forgot to ask for forgiveness or forgot to confess but had previously accepted Christ's death as payment for sin debt, that person wouldn't go to Hell. Why? Because Jesus "paid it all!!" We didn't have to do it. Praise God.

brakelite
Sep 15th 2008, 01:38 AM
Of course...But that does not mean we are not saved. I agree with much of what you say. But, to me you teach salvation + works which I do not believe.

I will leave it at that to practice my self-moderation

I am not teaching that we are saved by our works., I believe the same Bible as you do, that 'by grace we are saved, and not of works, lest we should boast'. But I would like you to consider Israel of the OT. When they were delivered from Pharoah and slavery in Egypt, was that by grace, or by works? It was by grace, right? But what happened next? Could they by-pass Sinai? No, Sinai was the very next stop on their road to the promised land and the full realisation of salvation. The promises of God were conditional on their obedience to His commandments. Israel was not obedient, and an entire generation fell in the wilderness and despite the promise they never attained it.
Jesus says to us that greater love hath no man than one who lays down his life for his friends. Now this is precisely what Jesus did. He laid down His life for us. But note carefully and consider the very next verse...

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Elsewhere He says "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." Salvation may not be dependent upon our works, but I would suggest that what Jesus is saying here is that He died for His friends, and we are His friends if we obey Him. In other words, if we do not obey Him, as Israel did not, then we can not expect to receive any of the promises any more than Israel did. For if we do not obey Him, then we are not His friends and we shall die in our sins.

Once we receive Christ, the Holy Spirit is sent to us and we, day by day, are made aware of all our deepest darkest and most secret sins and habits and failings.We can no more by-pass Sinai and the law of God than could Israel. The rest of our lives we must spend surrendered to God that He may clean us up. Sanctify us, and make us holy. Obedient. Righteous.
All by grace. Not by our own works, but His. But salvation is not a one-off event that guarantees your place in heaven. It is a life-long process that results in eternal life if we are faithful.

ConqueredbyLove
Sep 15th 2008, 02:45 AM
But salvation is not a one-off event that guarantees your place in heaven. It is a life-long process that results in eternal life if we are faithful.

Salvation plus works....That is what you are teaching....

I would ask you....how faithful do we have to be to guarantee our place in Heaven. Where do you draw the line?

Butch5
Sep 15th 2008, 03:52 AM
Salvation plus works....That is what you are teaching....

I would ask you....how faithful do we have to be to guarantee our place in Heaven. Where do you draw the line?

It's what the Bible teaches,

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, He also said this,


Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jesus said,

John 5:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The writer of Hebrews said this,

Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV ) 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James said,


James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and there is more.

Butch5
Sep 15th 2008, 04:06 AM
MG---I don't believe saints in this dispensation have to be water baptized. That's why Paul said "Christ sent me not to baptize." The mystery program was revealed to him. The mystery that had been kept secret was the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Those saints in Acts did have to be baptized for remission of sins. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit once we are saved.


Those saints were in the same dispensation as we are. They were saved AFTER Christ's death on the cross.


MG---If the atonement was conditional, that would suggest that we have to do something to go to heaven besides simply believing. Confession is not necessary and neither is asking for forgiveness. Paul knew we would try to continue to work our way into heaven in some form of fashion, that's why he wrote "Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."


I suggest you look at the Scriptures, you can't take one Scripture and negate the rest. Confession is not necessary?

Romans 10:9-10 ( KJV ) 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul didn't just say believe and you will be saved, He said if you believe and confess you will be saved.


1 John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How are our sins forgiven? How are we cleansed from all unrighteousness?
John says if we confess our sins.


MG---You can't have it both ways. Either you want to work your way into Heaven (which you can't) or you accept Christ's payment for your sin debt.



You can't earn your way into heaven, however we are required to do good works.

Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jesus said,

John 5:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The writer of Hebrews said this,

Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV ) 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James said,


James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



MG---If someone on their death bed committed a sin and forgot to ask for forgiveness or forgot to confess but had previously accepted Christ's death as payment for sin debt, that person wouldn't go to Hell. Why? Because Jesus "paid it all!!" We didn't have to do it. Praise God.

Paid all what? You have not yet shown were there was anything to be paid. Please show Scripture that says God requires payment for sins.

brakelite
Sep 17th 2008, 11:28 AM
Salvation plus works....That is what you are teaching....

I would ask you....how faithful do we have to be to guarantee our place in Heaven. Where do you draw the line?

I am not sure what you are asking. Either one is faithful or one isn't.
Let me ask : Does salvation come to any who do not love Jesus?

Steps
Sep 17th 2008, 01:22 PM
As long we keep thinking that being born again is just like chosing to go right instead of left, we'll keep asking question like these.

It is a new of life....literally. I wonder if the bible is lying when it says that the christian cannot sin because he's born of God. Many people are 'christians' today because they were born into it. Ok.

Anyway, to start with, we do have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Maybe the problem is the definition of 'work'. That you are 'saved' does give you the freedom to fornicate, lie, cheat etc in the hope that once saved, always saved. You are responsible for your acts of disobedience. As long as you are a young christian (a nepios), you will have to consciously reject and subdue your carnal desires with the power made available within. As every new born babe, we need to grow to a level where most of those desires are no longer source of hindrance. That process of subduing these desire is 'work'. A lot of work, if you remember a baby trying to walk. (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5-10, etc). We have to remember that this is a war. We are soldiers. 2 Tim 2:3-6 tells us that we will of necessity endure hardness, that this is a war, that we are striving for a mastery (price), that we are caretakers at work (laboring) and will eat the fruit. Heb 12:2 says Looking unto Jesus (taking the example of Jesus), the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God

The problem is that we know too much or just too wise. Christ said we need faith like that of a child to enter or see the kingdom of God. That is because it is a faith that trusts/depends completely, without question.

What is death anyways? Is it when you cease to exist on earth surface that you are dead? Death is separation from Grace; separation from Life; the absence of Life. (You know what Life is, I hope). If Jehovah says that if Adam ate the fruit that he would die. Then Adam died. period. But he still walked the earth, remember? Yet he died. So the wages of sin being death is not necessarily referring to physical breathless and rottenness of the physical body. Again, Christ has abolished DEATH, and has brought LIFE and Immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10). More later

What is Sin anyways? Is it just because Adam ate the fruit of the tree that he sinned? Do remember God's reaction to Adam's action? Jehovah was vexed. SO angry he didn't tell them to leave the garden. HE drove (CHASED) them out of it using top ranking warrior angels (Gen 3:24). Jehovah even ordered the multi-faced Cherub angels to stay guard at garden with fiery swords to make sure they don't return. That is what sin is. Put idiotically simply, it is hurting God's feelings. [Did observe God did not curse the man? But thats another consideration]

How do you appease such indignation?

What Christ's death did is to redeem us from the consequences of Adam's folly. If to redeem, then we were sold over. If redeem, then a price was paid. The scripture says that Adam subjected us (mankind and nature course)...nevertheless, in hope (Rom 8:20). He died because it was the only way according eternal laws to grant us access back into fellowship (Rom 5:2, Eph 2:18, 3:12, Heb 4:14-16). Because we have access we can cry Abba father. Because we have access we can ask for forgiveness when we hurt his feelings. We will fall as we grow spiritually. But you do not accept your fallen state and stay there thinking you are saved-saved. Deep doo-doo for you! YOU GROW. You train your regenerated spirit to a point where you are spiritually-minded. You can then laugh in the face of Sin. You can walk over immorality, lies, etc. Yet at that level you still have challenges mostly due to responsibility God expect from you.

That access is available to everyone because the 'finished work' was done for 'man'. It is the grace of God that brings salvation which is available to everyone (Tit 2:11) but not everyone has received it. Many doubt it. Many question it. Many reject it. Many don't even know of it but every man know there is a hollowness in our life.

But I would really want us to understand that when we are born again, we received a NEW LIFE. We became another species.

Man, that's a long one

yaza
Sep 18th 2008, 03:32 AM
Those saints were in the same dispensation as we are. They were saved AFTER Christ's death on the cross.



I suggest you look at the Scriptures, you can't take one Scripture and negate the rest. Confession is not necessary?

Romans 10:9-10 ( KJV ) 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul didn't just say believe and you will be saved, He said if you believe and confess you will be saved.


1 John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How are our sins forgiven? How are we cleansed from all unrighteousness?
John says if we confess our sins.




You can't earn your way into heaven, however we are required to do good works.

Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jesus said,

John 5:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The writer of Hebrews said this,

Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV ) 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James said,


James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.




Paid all what? You have not yet shown were there was anything to be paid. Please show Scripture that says God requires payment for sins.the finished work on the cross is simply doing away with the law of sin and death, he came to take away the sin of the world and he did past present and future, the only sin that will send you to hell is the sin of unbelief, 1 john 1:9 is speaking to unbelievers because we don't have to ask for forgivness because christ provided it once for all, asking for what you have is not believing what god said about our sin. its finished! there is no sacrifice left for sin. he has already forgiven we are free to live and worship god in spirit and truth and do the goods works god has prepared for us. and not live in fear that he will send us to hell if we are'nt keeping short accounts with god or we are not confesed every sin, but rather we should thank god daily for the forgivness he has provided for us through jesus his son. we don't go in and out of gods grace. were there is no law there is no sin. all things are permissable but all things are not profitable. live by the spirit and you won't fulfill the desires of the flesh. done and done.

zombieCat
Sep 18th 2008, 05:29 AM
This brings up an interesting question: was it the act of Jesus dying that paid for our sins, or did it include something between death and resurrection?

Steps
Sep 18th 2008, 09:40 AM
This brings up an interesting question: was it the act of Jesus dying that paid for our sins, or did it include something between death and resurrection?
Now, this is a good question.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 09:43 AM
Yes, all of our sins were future when Christ died.

They are atoned for by the death of Christ, however that atonement is conditional.

No. If it were conditional, salvation would not be by grace. And Christ's work would have been incomplete - WE would have had to do something (believe, be baptised, repent, whatever) to MAKE it complete. And that's heresy.


If all of our sins were forgiven already why did Peter tell the new believers to be baptized for the remission of sins? Why did Ananias tell Paul to rise and wash away your sins?

Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 22:16 ( KJV ) 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

The key to our RECEIVING the forgiveness already purchased for us is to believe and be baptised. The benefits of the finished work of Christ are then applied to us, so that our sins are (at that moment in time) "remitted" and "washed away". Up till then, we were children of wrath. This is a subtle but VITAL distinction from what you said.


When you are saved and baptized your past sins are forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

You are entirely misinterpreting that verse. As is so often the case, the archaic KJV English doesn't transalte easily into 21st century English. The NKJV makes the meaning clearer and shows that Christ came to deal with sins committed BEFORE He came as well:-

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed Rom 3:25 NKJV


You now have a clean slate, if you commit sins after you are in a covenant relationship with God you must confess your sins for them to be forgiven. So any sins you commit in the future are not yet forgiven, they will be forgiven when you confess them.


1 John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

THat is salvation by works. You are saying that Christ's death only dealt with our past sins but that our future sins are atoned for by our confession? So waht if we either forget certain sins or aren't aware we've committed that sin? Is going to say "You are damned because you forgot to confess" or "You ought to have had the same perfect knowledge of your own heart as I have - and because you didn't, you're damned"?!? This is about as hopeless (quite literally) as RCC doctrine - I see now why going to confess to the priest regularly is such a big thing for them! They're worried they'll be damned (or rather go to Purgatory!) if they don't!


If all of your future sins were forgiven already what would there be to forgive when you confess your sins?

I believe there are two aspects to forgiveness. There is the judicial aspect - we have offended and rebelled against a Holy God and are guilty before Him. We need to be pardoned - but becuase God is just, He cannot overlook our sin - there must be punishment/payment for it - and He sent His Son to secure that for all who would believe. When we avail our selves of that payment/punishment on our behalf, we are acquitted/pardoned/forgiven - this is justification by faith alone that happens when we first believe.

But what is forgiveness for? Is it just to remove the guilt? Make us feel better? No - it is to RECONCILE us to God - to restore that relationship that sin broke, so that we are no longer children of wrath but beloved children of God. After that, forgiveness of sin is the same as forgiveness between a father and a child, not a judge and an accused. It's all about restoring our RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP with our Heavenly Father. It tokk me many, many years to appreciate this, as I struggled too with the idea of confession and forgiveness being so closely linked. But the context of 1 John 1 is walking in the light rather than walking in darkness - and the letter is all about the distinction between the Christian and the non-Christian - between the child of God and the child of the Devil. The child of God as a rule walks in the light, not darkness - because he/she is following Christ - it's the evidence that we are born of God. If we walk in darkness (as a rule), then we lie and the truth is not in us - we deceive ourselves and show we are not born of God. But none of us is without sin, so that is why we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One. Don't forget waht "confess" means in the NT - homologeo = to speak the same thing - here, it means to agree with God about our sin - to view it the same way as Him - the hate it, to abhor and reject it - to admit our guilt when we commit it - it's that state of heart (not denying our sinfulness, as in the immediately preceding verses) that is the kind of heart that shows it has received - and keeps on receiving God's forgiveness. Although it sounds a bit like the Yoda, I like the way Young's Literal Translation puts it:-

And if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin; if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:7-9 YLT

I often paraphrase the verses as follows:-

If we are those who make a habit of walking in the light, then we are those who have constant fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son constantly cleanses us from all sin. If we are those who make a habit of saying that we have no sin, we constantly deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If however we are those who make a habit of agreeing with God about our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins continually and continually cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I have expanded the wording in a similar way to the Amplified Bible and some of the dynamic equivalence translations to bring out the exact meaning of the Greek tenses, which is VITAL to understanding the text. We are so used to "if" being a purely conditional "if" (eg like the parent that says "If you do your homework, you can watch that DVD" - that is very much the language of REWARD for WORK DONE), that we don't see it in the "hypotheses"/"sowing and reaping" sense eg "If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned" - or "If you take care of the pennies, the pounds will take care of themselves" - or "If you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows".

So it's not a case of "confess, and I'll reward you with forgiveness - but make sure you've covered every base every time - or else!" - it's "what is the general principle that I live by? Do I agree with God about my sin and seek to die to it daily, seeking His forgiveness (ie restored favour) when I do screw up? Or do I see myself as sinless, no need to repent, living a righteous life?" The first is the evidence that we are born of God. The second shows we are still in our sins.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:01 AM
This brings up an interesting question: was it the act of Jesus dying that paid for our sins, or did it include something between death and resurrection?

It was finished on the cross - that's why Jesus cried "Tetalestai" = "It is finished". Also, the whole thrust of the NT is that it is through the cross - the blood of the Lamb - that our sins are paid for. Here are just a few passages.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins... Eph 1:7a NKJV

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb 9:12 NKJV

But now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Heb 9:26b-28a NKJV

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God Heb 10:12 NKJV

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh Heb 10:19-20 NKJV

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ Gal 6:14 NKJV

In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Col 1:14 NKJV

And by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight Col 1:20-22 NKJV

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:13-15 NKJV

The "it" is clearly the cross itself. I am aware that there is a view that the work of atonement was NOT completed until the resurrection but there is a word for that view. Heresy. The above verses (and many others) make it clear that it was ALL accomplished on the cross - the sacrifice, the blood, the offering - that is what the cross was all about. And that ALONE won us eternal redemption.

Steps
Sep 18th 2008, 11:16 AM
The "it" is clearly the cross itself. I am aware that there is a view that the work of atonement was NOT completed until the resurrection but there is a word for that view. Heresy. The above verses (and many others) make it clear that it was ALL accomplished on the cross - the sacrifice, the blood, the offering - that is what the cross was all about. And that ALONE won us eternal redemption.

Hi Mark,

The atonement was finished on cross, you said, right. To put it better, His DEATH atoned for man. Death was was the justice, so Jesus Christ had to die to atone for us. I agree.

What would have happened if Christ had remained dead. Did He have to arise from the dead? Afteral, once He died he had paid the price.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:26 AM
Hi Mark,

The atonement was finished on cross, you said, right. To put it better, His DEATH atoned for man. Death was was the justice, so Jesus Christ had to die to atone for us. I agree.

What would have happened if Christ had remained dead. Did He have to arise from the dead? Afteral, once He died he had paid the price.

The resurrection accomplished several things:-

It proved to all that the price HAD been accepted by God - how else could we have known?

It proved Christ's divinity beyond any possible doubt - there could have been no greater proof than to have conquered death itself.

It defeated death by breaking its power - and this is tied into the cross too - the cross was an essential precursor to Christ's ABILITY to rise from the dead - because it was the final (and most important) act of obedience to the Father - he "finished" with flying colours and no sin was found in Him - that is why death could not hold Him!

It was necessary so that He could justify us (Rom 4:25).

I accept that the RESURRECTION is equally important for our salvation - but the actual work of salvation was completed at the cross - nothing more to be done in defeating Satan while he was actually dead (that's the heresy I'm talking about) - Satan was "trumped" at the cross itself.

Now, was DEATH defeated at the cross - or in the resurrection? THAT'S a better question....

It is the precursor for the bodily resurrection of all who trust in Christ.

Coptichristian
Sep 18th 2008, 01:25 PM
The key to our RECEIVING the forgiveness already purchased for us is to believe and be baptised.


What is the difference between being forgiven and receving forgiveness?

Steps
Sep 18th 2008, 02:48 PM
Hi again, Mark,

First off, I agree with everything u have said. I would, however, like to add to it, if that's ok.

To start with, everyone involved understood the implication of the Death of Christ. Even Lucifer understood the eternal laws of substitution, of sin and death and of remission of sin and he got the drift of Christ mission on earth. But he didn't know Jesus would rise or the events that would happen in hell. He could see up to His death. He must have thought he had a better prisoner in the Christ.

Anyway, it is the resurrection of Jesus that brought the new life. You remember, we died in him fulfilling the requirement of justice, defeated death in him and rose in Him to a new life.

If He had not risen, the price may have been paid but our spirit would NOT still have received the new life and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus would not have made us free from the law of sin and death.

What am saying in so so many words is that it is the resurrection that makes us Christians. Once again, that is if we understand that the christian is a new species of being with the life of God in him (1 John 5:10-13). Christianity is not a religion. It is not just a choice to practice christian religion instead of the other.

There's a new life in the Christian. It is a seed. [Well am sure you know that one of the greatest principle of the kingdom is that of The SEED. But that's by the way]

God Bless

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 04:14 PM
yaza---the finished work on the cross is simply doing away with the law of sin and death,

How did He do that ?


yaza---he came to take away the sin of the world and he did past present and future, the only sin that will send you to hell is the sin of unbelief,

If all sins are taken away why does the sin of unbelief send one to hell, I thought all sin past present and future were forgiven?




yaza--- 1 john 1:9 is speaking to unbelievers because we don't have to ask for forgivness because christ provided it once for all,

You are incorrect my friend John was writing to Christians in 1 John.


yaza---asking for what you have is not believing what god said about our sin. its finished! there is no sacrifice left for sin.

What was the sacrifice for sin? Specifically, what was accomplished


yaza--- we don't go in and out of gods grace.


Galatians 5:3-4 ( KJV ) 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Romans 11:19-21 ( KJV ) 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV ) 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

and there are many more.


yaza--- were there is no law there is no sin.

Jesus did abolish the law He fulfilled.

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 04:26 PM
This brings up an interesting question: was it the act of Jesus dying that paid for our sins, or did it include something between death and resurrection?

Zombie,

A lot went on during that time. The question is what did happen when Jesus died? mankind was under the power of the devil, mankind was condemned to die because of sin, the devil would kill mankind. However Jesus gave Himself a ransom to die in mankind's place, freeing mankind from the power of sin and death. Jesus also resurrected, in doing so He defeated the devil, He plundered hades and led captivity captive.

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 05:58 PM
No. If it were conditional, salvation would not be by grace. And Christ's work would have been incomplete - WE would have had to do something (believe, be baptised, repent, whatever) to MAKE it complete. And that's heresy.

First, you have to show Scripture to support your statements. For instance, you said, "No. If it were conditional, salvation would not be by grace" can you prove that it is not by grace because it is conditional? If I buy my child a car and say you can only drive it if you have good grades, does that mean my buying the car for my child wasn't an act of grace?

Second, please show how, grace being conditional, means Christ's work is incomplete.

Third, if you claim something is heresy, please use Scripture to show it.





The key to our RECEIVING the forgiveness already purchased for us is to believe and be baptised. The benefits of the finished work of Christ are then applied to us, so that our sins are (at that moment in time) "remitted" and "washed away". Up till then, we were children of wrath. This is a subtle but VITAL distinction from what you said.

Didn't you just contradict what you said above?? You say here, "The key to our RECEIVING the forgiveness already purchased for us is to believe and be baptised." doesn't that make it conditional???



You are entirely misinterpreting that verse. As is so often the case, the archaic KJV English doesn't transalte easily into 21st century English. The NKJV makes the meaning clearer and shows that Christ came to deal with sins committed BEFORE He came as well:-

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed Rom 3:25 NKJV

There is no misinterpreting, the verse says exactly what I said it does, even in the NKJV that you quoted.

Can you show me Scripture that states that Christ died for your future sins? John is telling his readers (Christians) if they confess their sins, why would John tell them this if the sins were already forgiven? With this statement it is clear John did not consider future sins already forgiven.



THat is salvation by works.

No, it is not salvation by works, it is obeying God.


You are saying that Christ's death only dealt with our past sins but that our future sins are atoned for by our confession?

No, I'm saying you future sins are "FORGIVEN" by confession, not atoned for. Atonement is a price paid, it is the opposite of forgiveness.


So waht if we either forget certain sins or aren't aware we've committed that sin? Is going to say "You are damned because you forgot to confess" or "You ought to have had the same perfect knowledge of your own heart as I have - and because you didn't, you're damned"?!? This is about as hopeless (quite literally) as RCC doctrine - I see now why going to confess to the priest regularly is such a big thing for them! They're worried they'll be damned (or rather go to Purgatory!) if they don't!

You have the wrong idea, we are not required to live perfectly.

Micah 6:8 ( KJV ) 8He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

First, notice I said you are in a covenant relationship with God. Paul said there is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The key here is "in Christ Jesus". In the covenant relationship God forgives us, we are still told to confess our sins, however God is not sitting there writing down every sin that we commit so that He can check them off when we pray. This idea that God's justice demands absolute perfection from us is crazy. I don't see where Scripture say we are to be perfect.


I believe there are two aspects to forgiveness. There is the judicial aspect - we have offended and rebelled against a Holy God and are guilty before Him. We need to be pardoned - but becuase God is just, He cannot overlook our sin - there must be punishment/payment for it - and He sent His Son to secure that for all who would believe. When we avail our selves of that payment/punishment on our behalf, we are acquitted/pardoned/forgiven - this is justification by faith alone that happens when we first believe.

This is the problem with the Satisfaction model of the atonement. This idea that because God is just He cannot overlook sin? Where in Scripture do we find this idea??? God simply says I will forgive their sins. Where do we find God saying His justice requires payment for our sins? Christ's death was not a payment to satisfied God's justice, it was to deliver us from the power of darkness.


But what is forgiveness for? Is it just to remove the guilt? Make us feel better? No - it is to RECONCILE us to God - to restore that relationship that sin broke, so that we are no longer children of wrath but beloved children of God. After that, forgiveness of sin is the same as forgiveness between a father and a child, not a judge and an accused. It's all about restoring our RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP with our Heavenly Father. It tokk me many, many years to appreciate this, as I struggled too with the idea of confession and forgiveness being so closely linked. But the context of 1 John 1 is walking in the light rather than walking in darkness - and the letter is all about the distinction between the Christian and the non-Christian - between the child of God and the child of the Devil. The child of God as a rule walks in the light, not darkness - because he/she is following Christ - it's the evidence that we are born of God. If we walk in darkness (as a rule), then we lie and the truth is not in us - we deceive ourselves and show we are not born of God. But none of us is without sin, so that is why we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One. Don't forget waht "confess" means in the NT - homologeo = to speak the same thing - here, it means to agree with God about our sin - to view it the same way as Him - the hate it, to abhor and reject it - to admit our guilt when we commit it - it's that state of heart (not denying our sinfulness, as in the immediately preceding verses) that is the kind of heart that shows it has received - and keeps on receiving God's forgiveness. Although it sounds a bit like the Yoda, I like the way Young's Literal Translation puts it:-

And if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin; if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:7-9 YLT

I often paraphrase the verses as follows:-

If we are those who make a habit of walking in the light, then we are those who have constant fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son constantly cleanses us from all sin. If we are those who make a habit of saying that we have no sin, we constantly deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If however we are those who make a habit of agreeing with God about our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins continually and continually cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I have expanded the wording in a similar way to the Amplified Bible and some of the dynamic equivalence translations to bring out the exact meaning of the Greek tenses, which is VITAL to understanding the text. We are so used to "if" being a purely conditional "if" (eg like the parent that says "If you do your homework, you can watch that DVD" - that is very much the language of REWARD for WORK DONE), that we don't see it in the "hypotheses"/"sowing and reaping" sense eg "If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned" - or "If you take care of the pennies, the pounds will take care of themselves" - or "If you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows".

So it's not a case of "confess, and I'll reward you with forgiveness - but make sure you've covered every base every time - or else!" - it's "what is the general principle that I live by? Do I agree with God about my sin and seek to die to it daily, seeking His forgiveness (ie restored favour) when I do screw up? Or do I see myself as sinless, no need to repent, living a righteous life?" The first is the evidence that we are born of God. The second shows we are still in our sins.

I agree with you here.

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
Hi Mark,

The atonement was finished on cross, you said, right. To put it better, His DEATH atoned for man. Death was was the justice, so Jesus Christ had to die to atone for us. I agree.

What would have happened if Christ had remained dead. Did He have to arise from the dead? Afteral, once He died he had paid the price.

What was finsihed at the cross was Christ's earthly ministy. He still had His work to do in hades and the resurrection was still to come.

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 06:06 PM
The resurrection accomplished several things:-

It proved to all that the price HAD been accepted by God - how else could we have known?

It proved Christ's divinity beyond any possible doubt - there could have been no greater proof than to have conquered death itself.

It defeated death by breaking its power - and this is tied into the cross too - the cross was an essential precursor to Christ's ABILITY to rise from the dead - because it was the final (and most important) act of obedience to the Father - he "finished" with flying colours and no sin was found in Him - that is why death could not hold Him!


It was necessary so that He could justify us (Rom 4:25).

I accept that the RESURRECTION is equally important for our salvation - but the actual work of salvation was completed at the cross - nothing more to be done in defeating Satan while he was actually dead (that's the heresy I'm talking about) - Satan was "trumped" at the cross itself.

Now, was DEATH defeated at the cross - or in the resurrection? THAT'S a better question....

It is the precursor for the bodily resurrection of all who trust in Christ.

What price had been accepted by God?

You said,

the RESURRECTION is equally important for our salvation - but the actual work of salvation was completed at the cross

How could salvation be completed at the cross when Christ had not yet resurrected? If He did not resurrect then neither could we. Paul says that He may be the first born among many bretheren.

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 06:18 PM
Hi again, Mark,

First off, I agree with everything u have said. I would, however, like to add to it, if that's ok.

To start with, everyone involved understood the implication of the Death of Christ. Even Lucifer understood the eternal laws of substitution, of sin and death and of remission of sin and he got the drift of Christ mission on earth. But he didn't know Jesus would rise or the events that would happen in hell. He could see up to His death. He must have thought he had a better prisoner in the Christ.

Anyway, it is the resurrection of Jesus that brought the new life. You remember, we died in him fulfilling the requirement of justice, defeated death in him and rose in Him to a new life.

If He had not risen, the price may have been paid but our spirit would NOT still have received the new life and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus would not have made us free from the law of sin and death.

What am saying in so so many words is that it is the resurrection that makes us Christians. Once again, that is if we understand that the christian is a new species of being with the life of God in him (1 John 5:10-13). Christianity is not a religion. It is not just a choice to practice christian religion instead of the other.

There's a new life in the Christian. It is a seed. [Well am sure you know that one of the greatest principle of the kingdom is that of The SEED. But that's by the way]

God Bless

I agree with what you said except for the statement about the requirement of justice. That one is not in Scripture.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 09:43 PM
What is the difference between being forgiven and receving forgiveness?

There is a real mystery to this - Paul makes it clear in eg Col 1:21-22 and Rom 5:10 that we were actually reconciled to God by Christ's death - not by our faith in Christ - yet until our conversion, we are children of wrath and God's wrath remains on us until we believe. Here's how I see it - God secured forgiveness for all who would believe when Christ died - yet it is not applied to us (we do not receive it - ie appropriate it) until we believe - does that make sense?

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 09:48 PM
Hi again, Mark,

First off, I agree with everything u have said. I would, however, like to add to it, if that's ok.

To start with, everyone involved understood the implication of the Death of Christ. Even Lucifer understood the eternal laws of substitution, of sin and death and of remission of sin and he got the drift of Christ mission on earth. But he didn't know Jesus would rise or the events that would happen in hell. He could see up to His death. He must have thought he had a better prisoner in the Christ.

Anyway, it is the resurrection of Jesus that brought the new life. You remember, we died in him fulfilling the requirement of justice, defeated death in him and rose in Him to a new life.

If He had not risen, the price may have been paid but our spirit would NOT still have received the new life and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus would not have made us free from the law of sin and death.

What am saying in so so many words is that it is the resurrection that makes us Christians.

Amen!


Once again, that is if we understand that the christian is a new species of being with the life of God in him (1 John 5:10-13).

Careful here. We were human when we were unsaved. What name would you give to the new species you think we are? Jesus was human - are we not still human too after we believe?


Christianity is not a religion. It is not just a choice to practice christian religion instead of the other.

Amen!


There's a new life in the Christian. It is a seed. [Well am sure you know that one of the greatest principle of the kingdom is that of The SEED. But that's by the way]

What do you mean by that? The principle of "the SEED"?


God Bless

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 09:57 PM
What was finsihed at the cross was Christ's earthly ministy.

No. Do you know that tetalestai (it is finished) was what was said when a debt was paid? Do you deny that Christ's death purchased our eternal redemption?


He still had His work to do in hades

And what, pray tell, was that?

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 10:34 PM
Marksfan---No. Do you know that tetalestai (it is finished) was what was said when a debt was paid? Do you deny that Christ's death purchased our eternal redemption?

Christ's death did purchase our eternal redemption. Who did it purchase it from? Where does Scripture say we are required to paid a debt for our sins?




Marksfan---And what, pray tell, was that?

He preached to the spirits in prison for one.


1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6 ( KJV ) 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

He also plundered Satan's goods,


Matthew 12:25-29 ( KJV ) 25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

He also set the prisoners free,


Ephesians 4:7-10 ( KJV ) 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Hebrews 2:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 18th 2008, 10:40 PM
It was finished on the cross - that's why Jesus cried "Tetalestai" = "It is finished". Also, the whole thrust of the NT is that it is through the cross - the blood of the Lamb - that our sins are paid for. Here are just a few passages.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins... Eph 1:7a NKJV

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb 9:12 NKJV

But now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Heb 9:26b-28a NKJV

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God Heb 10:12 NKJV

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh Heb 10:19-20 NKJV

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ Gal 6:14 NKJV

In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Col 1:14 NKJV

And by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight Col 1:20-22 NKJV

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:13-15 NKJV

The "it" is clearly the cross itself. I am aware that there is a view that the work of atonement was NOT completed until the resurrection but there is a word for that view. Heresy. The above verses (and many others) make it clear that it was ALL accomplished on the cross - the sacrifice, the blood, the offering - that is what the cross was all about. And that ALONE won us eternal redemption.

I agree 100 % with this...

If God said it was 'finished' on the Cross then IT was.. Jesus was God in the flesh and He said it... If He said it then why can't people understand it? Paul states.. the preaching of the Cross is 'foolishenss' to most.. its an offense to some and a stumblingblock.... Like I stated in one my prior posts on this website.. God defeated the Pride and Arrogance of the evil one by a HUMBLE AND HUMILITATING Crucifixtion.. a Sacrafice.. but not with the blood of bulls and goats but with the BLOOD of His Own Begotten Son..... pure blood.. innocent and without sin.. Its REDEMPTIVE AND ATONING... You can't add to it and you can't take anything away from it........ PERIOD..... Any 'watering down 'of this COMPLETE ATONING WORK AND SACRAFICE or saying its not sufficient .. theres got to be more....................... is very DANGEROUS...

To put it in the mindset.. Jesus was the Lamb slain 'before' the foundation of the world.. even before 'time' and this 'world' was created and man was created.. God had His redemptive plan in place... To say its not complete... conditional.. or theres more we have to do to attain salvation... is very very DANGEROUS....

God said 'it was finished' on the cross.... thats what you believe and trust in by Faith...... when you stand before Him.. you wont be standing there by your good works or good deeds or just being good enough.. or following this man or that man or this group or that group... When you stand before Him it will be thru His completed and atoning Work at Calvary... you clothed with His righteousness .. a gift.... not earned.. not worked for.. not bought.. but His gift to you.. and those He has known since before the foundation of the world....

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 10:49 PM
First, you have to show Scripture to support your statements. For instance, you said, "No. If it were conditional, salvation would not be by grace" can you prove that it is not by grace because it is conditional?

Yes. If a condition has to be fulfilled, then it is meritorious.


If I buy my child a car and say you can only drive it if you have good grades, does that mean my buying the car for my child wasn't an act of grace?

Yes.


Second, please show how, grace being conditional, means Christ's work is incomplete.

Conditional grace teaches that Christ did not save anyone on the cross but only made salvation possible - it isn't completed until we believe. In effect, we atone for our unbelief by believing.


Third, if you claim something is heresy, please use Scripture to show it.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now we say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:8-9 NKJV

And what was that gospel? That Christ gave Himself for our sins (1:4), redeeming us by becoming a curse for us (3:13) (and we are justified by believing in Him APART from the law (any effort on our part to make oursleves right with Him) (1:16) - we are saved by grace ALONE (1:21) through faith ALONE (1:16, 20, 3:11) in Christ ALONE (1:20, 6:14).

If you need it spelled out, Eph 2:8, 9 makes it clear that we are saved BY grace, through faith - NOT BY faith, through grace - a subtle but vitally important distinction.


Didn't you just contradict what you said above?? You say here, "The key to our RECEIVING the forgiveness already purchased for us is to believe and be baptised." doesn't that make it conditional???

No. Receiving something already completed isn't conditional. What is conditional is saying that you need to believe in something which is only a possibility until you believe it - that way, salvation is only completed for people when they believe - FAITH saves, not Christ's death. So ultimately our confidence is in OUR faith - not in Christ's death. And that contradicts both Gal 6:14 and Eph 2:9 (for a start). If it's ALL about your faith being a CONDITION that you fulfil, then you have something to boast about ("I was smarter than the next man and chose Christ!"). And boasting is excluded.


You are entirely misinterpreting that verse. As is so often the case, the archaic KJV English doesn't transalte easily into 21st century English. The NKJV makes the meaning clearer and shows that Christ came to deal with sins committed BEFORE He came as well:-

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed Rom 3:25 NKJV

There is no misinterpreting, the verse says exactly what I said it does, even in the NKJV that you quoted.

God works in time. That is why Paul says "at the present time" in contrast to "previously". He is also talking about the Law and the Prophets being witnesses to the gospel in "shadow form" in the OT. He has also been talking about the law and the nation of Israel and redemptive history. The language he uses is very similar to what he says in Acts 14:16 and 17:30, where he is clearly looking back to redemptive history in the past and God's attitude to sin then. It CANNOT mean "sins in the future but that were previous to your conversion". You are imposing your doctrine on the text and it just does not say that.


Can you show me Scripture that states that Christ died for your future sins?

No need to. He died for all my sins. If he had not, then His work would not have been complete. All my sins were future and the Scripture says He died for my sins. Therefore He died for all my sins or I have no hope. If you believe that Jesus did NOT die for your/my/believers' future sins, then how are they atoned for?


John is telling his readers (Christians) if they confess their sins, why would John tell them this if the sins were already forgiven? With this statement it is clear John did not consider future sins already forgiven.

I have explained my position on what I believe John means already. Nothing more to add. In fact,. you said you agreed with me.


No, it is not salvation by works, it is obeying God.

If you are saying that the BASIS for our salvation is our obedience to God, then that is salvation by works.


No, I'm saying you future sins are "FORGIVEN" by confession, not atoned for.

But you implied earlier that Christ did not die for our future sins? So how are they atoned for?


Atonement is a price paid, it is the opposite of forgiveness.

Where do you get that from? Do you not think that God's forgiveness always requires atonement first?


You have the wrong idea, we are not required to live perfectly.

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 NKJV

And what is not living perfectly but falling short? And what is falling short but sin? Are you saying Goid can just "overlook" our sin? He MUST punish it or He is NOT JUST!!!!


In the covenant relationship God forgives us, we are still told to confess our sins, however God is not sitting there writing down every sin that we commit so that He can check them off when we pray.

Agreed so far.


This idea that God's justice demands absolute perfection from us is crazy.

Why? His holiness is absolute - He is of purer eyes than to look upon sin.


I don't see where Scripture say we are to be perfect.

Matt 5:48. Also Jas 2:10.




This is the problem with the Satisfaction model of the atonement. This idea that because God is just He cannot overlook sin? Where in Scripture do we find this idea???.

There are too many verses to mention. God's holiness has always required atonement to enable Him to forgive sin - do you not believe that? Here's just one verse - Rom 3:26.


God simply says I will forgive their sins. Where do we find God saying His justice requires payment for our sins?

All throughout the OT! And as I said, tetalestai could be translated "it has been paid". Col 2:14 also teaches this. And Gal 3:13. And 2 Cor 5:21. And Is 53:5, 6. etc etc


Christ's death was not a payment to satisfied God's justice, it was to deliver us from the power of darkness.

No - you have completely missed the teaching of the whole of the Bible about the purpose of the cross. I'm guessing you don't hold to penal substitution either? You quoted Rom 3:25, but that has the word propitiation in it - hilasterion - how do you understand that? What theory of the atonement DO you hold to?


I agree with you here.

Well at least that's something! :)

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 10:51 PM
What price had been accepted by God?

Christ's perfect life and sacrificial death as an offering for sin.


You said,

the RESURRECTION is equally important for our salvation - but the actual work of salvation was completed at the cross

How could salvation be completed at the cross when Christ had not yet resurrected? If He did not resurrect then neither could we. Paul says that He may be the first born among many bretheren.

I agree with your last two sentences. Can I ask you what you believe Christ's resurrection ACCOMPLISHED that the cross did not?

Butch5
Sep 18th 2008, 10:54 PM
I agree 100 % with this...

If God said it was 'finished' on the Cross then IT was.. Jesus was God in the flesh and He said it... If He said it then why can't people understand it? Paul states.. the preaching of the Cross is 'foolishenss' to most.. its an offense to some and a stumblingblock.... Like I stated in one my prior posts on this website.. God defeated the Pride and Arrogance of the evil one by a HUMBLE AND HUMILITATING Crucifixtion.. a Sacrafice.. but not with the blood of bulls and goats but with the BLOOD of His Own Begotten Son..... pure blood.. innocent and without sin.. Its REDEMPTIVE AND ATONING... You can't add to it and you can't take anything away from it........ PERIOD..... Any 'watering down 'of this COMPLETE ATONING WORK AND SACRAFICE or saying its not sufficient .. theres got to be more....................... is very DANGEROUS...

To put it in the mindset.. Jesus was the Lamb slain 'before' the foundation of the world.. even before 'time' and this 'world' was created and man was created.. God had His redemptive plan in place... To say its not complete... conditional.. or theres more we have to do to attain salvation... is very very DANGEROUS....

God said 'it was finished' on the cross.... thats what you believe and trust in by Faith...... when you stand before Him.. you wont be standing there by your good works or good deeds or just being good enough.. or following this man or that man or this group or that group... When you stand before Him it will be thru His completed and atoning Work at Calvary... you clothed with His righteousness .. a gift.... not earned.. not worked for.. not bought.. but His gift to you.. and those He has known since before the foundation of the world....

You also did not address the Scriptures. You can believe whatever you like that does not mean it's Scriptural.

Steps
Sep 19th 2008, 12:21 AM
Thank you Butch. Maybe I misunderstand something. But was it not God who established the principle of atonement in the laws. Is it not always by death - shedding of blood - even the remission of sin?

But sincerely though, I would appreciate it if there was some other way Jesus would have become our eternal high priest.

yaza
Sep 19th 2008, 12:32 AM
How did He do that ?



If all sins are taken away why does the sin of unbelief send one to hell, I thought all sin past present and future were forgiven?
matt 12:31 "therefore i say to you,any sin and blasphemy shall be for given people, but blasphemy against thespirit shall not be forgiven"john 16:8-9 and when he comes he will convict the world concerning sin and rightiousness and judgment concerning sin because they do not believe in me. john 1:29 the next day he saw jesus coming to him and said "behold, the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world! romans 5:6 for while we were still helpless, at the right time christ died for the ungodly.
1 john 2:2 and he himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.



You are incorrect my friend John was writing to Christians in 1 John.
1 john 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and PROCLAIM TO YOU the eternal life, which was with the father and was manifested to us 1:3 what we have seen and heard we PROCLAIM to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the father, and his son jesus christ. 1:5 this is the message we have heard from him and ANNOUNCE to you, that god is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. john is clearly making a plea for thier salvation.


What was the sacrifice for sin? Specifically, what was accomplished
isaiah 53:6 all of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.heb 9:26b but now once at the consummation of the ages he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Galatians 5:3-4 ( KJV ) 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
agreed

Romans 11:19-21 ( KJV ) 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
agreed

Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV ) 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

and there are many more.
agreed, but these and the many more are still the sin of unbelief that will not be forgiven, i'm not a osas believer so im with you on that.


Jesus did abolish the law He fulfilled.
i dont understand the question.

zombieCat
Sep 19th 2008, 12:49 AM
duplicate post

15char

zombieCat
Sep 19th 2008, 12:50 AM
He preached to the spirits in prison for one.

1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The idea that Jesus preached to spirits in hades makes no sense, and this scripture does nothing to make sense of it. Firstly, who are these spirits, and why would Jesus be preaching to them? If they are in dead and in prison, certainly they are lost souls. It is clear that once a man dies, there is no chance to choose God, so preaching to them would be meaningless. As for the verse you cited, the only way you can glean that the spirits being spoken of were in hades is by reading into the text. An exegetical reading makes it clear that He preached to spirits in the day of Noah, by the Spirit.


1 Peter 4:6 ( KJV ) 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.Again, you have to read a preconceived notion into this text to say that he was preaching to people in hades. I believe the context means that in the past He preached to people who are NOW dead. He preached so they would live according to God in the Spirit. How do dead people do that?

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 02:43 AM
The idea that Jesus preached to spirits in hades makes no sense, and this scripture does nothing to make sense of it. Firstly, who are these spirits, and why would Jesus be preaching to them? If they are in dead and in prison, certainly they are lost souls. It is clear that once a man dies, there is no chance to choose God, so preaching to them would be meaningless. As for the verse you cited, the only way you can glean that the spirits being spoken of were in hades is by reading into the text. An exegetical reading makes it clear that He preached to spirits in the day of Noah, by the Spirit.

Again, you have to read a preconceived notion into this text to say that he was preaching to people in hades. I believe the context means that in the past He preached to people who are NOW dead. He preached so they would live according to God in the Spirit. How do dead people do that?

Zombie,

After Christ died on the He went to paradise.


Luke 23:43 ( KJV ) 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We know that paradise is in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We know hades is in the heart of the earth


Acts 2:27 ( YLT ) 27because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

So after Christ died on the cross He spent three days in hades, it was there that He preached to the spirits in prison, that is where the prison is.

You should study the doctrine of the intermediate state. It would help you understand this doctrine better.

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 03:04 AM
Thank you Butch. Maybe I misunderstand something. But was it not God who established the principle of atonement in the laws. Is it not always by death - shedding of blood - even the remission of sin?

But sincerely though, I would appreciate it if there was some other way Jesus would have become our eternal high priest.

Yes it was God who established th eshedding of blood for sins. The OT sacrifices were a type to shoe that Christ would shed His blood for mankind. An innocent one would die for the guilty. However was this to satitfy God's justice? Let me ask this, would God tell us to do something that He says is an abomination?

35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

This was spoken to Jerusalem,


Ezekiel 16:19-22 ( KJV ) 19My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: andthus it was, saith the Lord GOD. 20Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? 22And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

It appears that God really dislikes people sacrificing their children to appease the gods.

Are we to understand that God says this is an abomination and that it never came into His mind, But yet say that God required Christ to be sacrificed to satisfy His justice????

I don't think so.

zombieCat
Sep 19th 2008, 03:14 AM
You should study the doctrine of the intermediate state. It would help you understand this doctrine better.I'm quite familiar with the widely-held doctrine of the intermediate state--I've been taught it for the better part of 20 years. First of all, you didn't comment on my previous notes about the passages you initially provided.


After Christ died on the He went to paradise.

Luke 23:43 ( KJV ) 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
That's one interpretation. Since the intermediate-state doctrine was widely accepted before the KJV was translated, it is possible that the placement of the comma after "thee" was put there with an uninteded bias. Putting the comma after "to day" says, "I say undo thee to day, you shalt be with me in paradise."

John 20:17 (KJV): Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Jesus clearly stated he had not been with the Father. Are those in Paradise separated from the Father? That doesn't sound like Paradise to me.


We know that paradise is in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.The only way we know that is by starting with pre-conceived notions that accompany a pre-existing intermediate-state doctrine. If you don't read into it with those notions, the plain meaning is "in the ground".


We know hades is in the heart of the earth

Acts 2:27 ( YLT ) 27because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;It's interesting that you have to change translations in order to get the word Hades. KJV translates "hell". Regardless, this does nothing to prove that it is at the center of the earth or that Jesus went there.

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 04:53 AM
9MarksFan---Yes. If a condition has to be fulfilled, then it is meritorious.


You didn't show it from Scripture. So, if God said He would save everyone with red hair, that means that all red heads have earned their salvation??? NO! A condition is not meritorious.


9MarksFan---Yes.
Maybe you should look up the definition of grace.


9MarksFan---Conditional grace teaches that Christ did not save anyone on the cross but only made salvation possible - it isn't completed until we believe. In effect, we atone for our unbelief by believing.

That's opinion, please show it from Scripture.
Who was saved when Christ died on the cross?


9MarksFan---But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now we say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:8-9 NKJV

And what was that gospel? That Christ gave Himself for our sins (1:4), redeeming us by becoming a curse for us (3:13) (and we are justified by believing in Him APART from the law (any effort on our part to make oursleves right with Him) (1:16) - we are saved by grace ALONE (1:21) through faith ALONE (1:16, 20, 3:11) in Christ ALONE (1:20, 6:14).

If you need it spelled out, Eph 2:8, 9 makes it clear that we are saved BY grace, through faith - NOT BY faith, through grace - a subtle but vitally important distinction.</I>

Dude, you have not shown were it is heresy as you claim. Also please show me a single Scripture that says we are saved through "faith alone"


9MarksFan---No. Receiving something already completed isn't conditional. What is conditional is saying that you need to believe in something which is only a possibility until you believe it - that way, salvation is only completed for people when they believe - FAITH saves, not Christ's death. So ultimately our confidence is in OUR faith - not in Christ's death. And that contradicts both Gal 6:14 and Eph 2:9 (for a start). If it's ALL about your faith being a CONDITION that you fulfil, then you have something to boast about ("I was smarter than the next man and chose Christ!"). And boasting is excluded.

Sorry dude, If you have to receive it then it is conditional. you can argue all you want but if you have to actively receive it that makes it condition. Also about boasting no can boast because everyone must enter the same way.



9MarksFan---God works in time. That is why Paul says "at the present time" in contrast to "previously". He is also talking about the Law and the Prophets being witnesses to the gospel in "shadow form" in the OT. He has also been talking about the law and the nation of Israel and redemptive history. The language he uses is very similar to what he says in Acts 14:16 and 17:30, where he is clearly looking back to redemptive history in the past and God's attitude to sin then. It CANNOT mean "sins in the future but that were previous to your conversion". You are imposing your doctrine on the text and it just does not say that.

Your the one arguing for future sins, not me. I said as the Scripture states a propitiation for sins that are past.


9MarksFan---No need to. He died for all my sins. If he had not, then His work would not have been complete. All my sins were future and the Scripture says He died for my sins. Therefore He died for all my sins or I have no hope. If you believe that Jesus did NOT die for your/my/believers' future sins, then how are they atoned for?

Let me rephrase the question, can you show Scripture that says your future sins are already forgiven?




9MarksFan---If you are saying that the BASIS for our salvation is our obedience to God, then that is salvation by works.

Well, you can call it that if you want to but salvation is based on our obedience to God. Are you going to say that Jesus, Paul, James, and the writer of Hebrews were wrong?




9MarksFan---But you implied earlier that Christ did not die for our future sins? So how are they atoned for?

I stated that wrong. Christ is the basis for the atonement. He freed us from the power of darkness, that is how he atoned for our sins. Forgiveness come from God.



9MarksFan---Where do you get that from?

If Christ atoned for us with his life, then He paid a price. As you guys say Christ paid the sin debt that you owed. So, if He paid the debt then there is nothing to forgive. There are two ways to reconcile a debt, you can either pay it or forgive it, you cannot do both as they are mutually exclusive.


9MarksFan---Do you not think that God's forgiveness always requires atonement first?

Forgiveness doesn't require atonement. We were under the power of darkness so we needed to be redeemed in addition to being forgiven



Therefore you shall be9MarksFan--- perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 NKJV


9MarksFan---And what is not living perfectly but falling short? And what is falling short but sin? Are you saying God can just "overlook" our sin? He MUST punish it or He is NOT JUST!!!!

The Greet word for perfect also means complete.
Can you show me Scripture that states God must punish sin or He is not just? So far that is just an opinion.


9MarksFan---Why? His holiness is absolute - He is of purer eyes than to look upon sin.


So God is incapable of looking upon sin??



9MarksFan--- Matt 5:48. Also Jas 2:10.



Again, it also means complete,



9MarksFan---There are too many verses to mention. God's holiness has always required atonement to enable Him to forgive sin - do you not believe that? Here's just one verse - Rom 3:26.

An atonement was required because we were under the power of darkness, once redeemed, man must choose whether or not to follow Christ, God is not going to grant forgiveness to the unrighteous. God is just because He provided forgiveness for sin that were formerly committed.


9MarksFan---All throughout the OT! And as I said, tetalestai could be translated "it has been paid". Col 2:14 also teaches this. And Gal 3:13. And 2 Cor 5:21. And Is 53:5, 6. etc etc

Sorry dude, these verse don't say God requires payment for sins.



9MarksFan---No - you have completely missed the teaching of the whole of the Bible about the purpose of the cross. I'm guessing you don't hold to penal substitution either? You quoted Rom 3:25, but that has the word propitiation in it - hilasterion - how do you understand that? What theory of the atonement DO you hold to?



No my friend, I have not missed it. I do not hold to the Satisfaction or Penal model of the atonement. You see it began as the Satisfaction model around the year 1100. A Catholic theologian name Anselm set out to change the understanding of the atonement so He came up with the idea that a sovereign could not forgive but must require payment for wrongs done. He developed this idea into what became known as the Satisfaction Model of the atonement, later when the reformers came along they took it and refined it more and made it into the Penal model that is around today. However neither of these two models were around for the first 1000 years of the Church. From the beginning the Church held to what is known as the Classic model which is the model that I hold to.

As for hilasterion, look at Hebrews 9:5, it is used there also, and is translated "mercy seat" Christ is our mercy seat. The mercy seat was where God met man. Christ is where God meets man. Also look at what it meant when the KJV was written.

Here are a few links to a brief overview of the satisfaction and Classic views of the atonement. As I said for the first 1000 years the Church held to the Classic view, this was the view of the early church fathers as well. I find it hard to believe that everyone had it wrong for the first 1000 years and then Anselm comes along and figures it all out. Surely if the Classic view was wrong then the apostles would have told their disciple so.

You can find this info at more reliable sources as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(satisfaction_view)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(Ransom_view)

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 05:00 AM
I'm quite familiar with the widely-held doctrine of the intermediate state--I've been taught it for the better part of 20 years. First of all, you didn't comment on my previous notes about the passages you initially provided.

That's one interpretation. Since the intermediate-state doctrine was widely accepted before the KJV was translated, it is possible that the placement of the comma after "thee" was put there with an uninteded bias. Putting the comma after "to day" says, "I say undo thee to day, you shalt be with me in paradise."

John 20:17 (KJV): Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Jesus clearly stated he had not been with the Father. Are those in Paradise separated from the Father? That doesn't sound like Paradise to me.

The only way we know that is by starting with pre-conceived notions that accompany a pre-existing intermediate-state doctrine. If you don't read into it with those notions, the plain meaning is "in the ground".

It's interesting that you have to change translations in order to get the word Hades. KJV translates "hell". Regardless, this does nothing to prove that it is at the center of the earth or that Jesus went there.

You are really reaching aren't you? The reason I change translations is because the KJV translates 3 different Greek words as hell. hades being one of them. My point was to show that it was indeed hades.

I am not going to debate this with you, it is in the Scriptures. Peter said that David has not gone into heaven yet, this was after the death of Christ. Where do you suppose He went? What about Samuel?When He was called back He came up out of the ground. Where do you suppose He was?

You said, Are those in Paradise separated from the Father? Yes they are.

Have you studied that ECF's they shed quite a bit of light on the subject.

zombieCat
Sep 19th 2008, 05:11 AM
You are really reaching aren't you? The reason I change translations is because the KJV translates 3 different Greek words as hell. hades being one of them. My point was to show that it was indeed hades.

I am not going to debate this with youHey, that's fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. Please, do keep adding input. I'm not so much asserting that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm in the process of seeking truth, and I'm leaning toward the viewpoint I've put forth. I actually need honest, thoughtful dialog, debate and counter-points on the issue to flesh out whether it has legs to stand on. In order to find the breaking point of it (if there is one), I have to get other people's perspective. If you have something to say about the things I've said, I would truly appreciate hearing your thoughts.

[Edit]Sorry, don't know how I missed the last part of your post.


...it is in the Scriptures. Peter said that David has not gone into heaven yet, this was after the death of Christ. Where do you suppose He went?I think he went in the ground, dead until the resurrection.


What about Samuel?When He was called back He came up out of the ground. Where do you suppose He was?.I suppose he was exactly where the text says he was--in the ground, dead until he was resurrected.


Have you studied that ECF's they shed quite a bit of light on the subject.I have not. Do you have a good link?

Steps
Sep 19th 2008, 10:10 AM
Yes it was God who established th eshedding of blood for sins. The OT sacrifices were a type to shoe that Christ would shed His blood for mankind. An innocent one would die for the guilty. However was this to satitfy God's justice? Let me ask this, would God tell us to do something that He says is an abomination?


35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

This was spoken to Jerusalem,


Ezekiel 16:19-22 ( KJV ) 19My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: andthus it was, saith the Lord GOD. 20Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? 22And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

It appears that God really dislikes people sacrificing their children to appease the gods.

Are we to understand that God says this is an abomination and that it never came into His mind, But yet say that God required Christ to be sacrificed to satisfy His justice????

I don't think so.

That's a good point you make Butch, with the human-sacrifice thing, not just child. I mean, can you imagine what the world would have been like if Jehovah allowed Abram to offer Isaac that day. It would have been a seal of approval for you-know-what. But just to keep it clear that He abhors human sacrifice, he provided a LAMB.

You do know that Jesus was not offered TO Jehovah as a sacrifice though! For one thing He gave Himself (Acts 8:32; Jer 11:19).

I think I'll rest here. My tabs will remain here cos its quite an inspiring discuss. It has made me re-appreciate God's love towards me and man. We tend to forget once we begin to know a lot. My evangelism has hit another height and that to me is the purpose of this forum...to provoke one another to love and to good works.

Then again, Butch, why do you think Jesus died? I mean if it was necessary that He die to redeem us, to atone for man, then there was a price. Like I said, if to 'redeem' then we were sold out in the first place. Was there not a justice which can be satisfied only by death? This time though, it had to be eternal (Heb 10:10-14)

Thank you :hug:

drew
Sep 19th 2008, 05:06 PM
No my friend, I have not missed it. I do not hold to the Satisfaction or Penal model of the atonement. You see it began as the Satisfaction model around the year 1100. A Catholic theologian name Anselm set out to change the understanding of the atonement so He came up with the idea that a sovereign could not forgive but must require payment for wrongs done. He developed this idea into what became known as the Satisfaction Model of the atonement, later when the reformers came along they took it and refined it more and made it into the Penal model that is around today. However neither of these two models were around for the first 1000 years of the Church. From the beginning the Church held to what is known as the Classic model which is the model that I hold to.

As for hilasterion, look at Hebrews 9:5, it is used there also, and is translated "mercy seat" Christ is our mercy seat. The mercy seat was where God met man. Christ is where God meets man. Also look at what it meant when the KJV was written.
Interesting stuff. I read the piece on the "classical" model of atonement. As the article states, this view is not widely held today. Of course, that does not make it incorrect. While I have no opinion (yet) on the "classical model", I do think there is something seriously amiss with the "penal substitution" model. at least how it is commonly articulated.

Romans 8:3 tells us that it was sin, not Jesus, who was condemned on the cross:

3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105b)] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105c)] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,...

I think this really cannot be made to work with the commonly conceptualization that Jesus was "punished" or "condemned" on our behalf. It is quite clear that it is sin that is the target of God's wrath, not Jesus.

My view of the atonement will almost seem to some like a description of a chemical reaction. In very brief compass:

Paul seems to see sin not as a moral category, but rather as a real force, a real power that exists in the world. Paul, albeit cryptically, describes how God used Torah to "lure" or "trick" sin into being "localized" in national Israel. Once there, sin is likewise "lured" into the flesh of the one man - Jesus. Sin, seen here as a "force" or "power" or "agent" is now vulnerable. It has been drawn out of the dark hidden corners of the world and is now "in one place". God then attacks and breaks the power of sin.

In the process, Jesus dies. But not because he has been judicially condemned, but rather as a "side-effect" of the violence involved when God condemned his real target - sin.

Now I suspect this position does not map to either the "classical" or the "penal subsitution" models. And what I have described is very sketchy and admittedly incomplete.

But I have real problems with the penal substitution view, not least the way it seems to have atonement taking place "in the air" in some abstract "judicial space". I suspect, as per what I have said, that the atonement is decidedly more "concrete", almost physical in nature.

Butch, if you have any sympathy at all to what I am asserting, can you see a way to integrate this view with the "classical" or "ransom" view?

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 07:37 PM
Interesting stuff. I read the piece on the "classical" model of atonement. As the article states, this view is not widely held today. Of course, that does not make it incorrect. While I have no opinion (yet) on the "classical model", I do think there is something seriously amiss with the "penal substitution" model. at least how it is commonly articulated.

Romans 8:3 tells us that it was sin, not Jesus, who was condemned on the cross:

3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105b)] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105c)] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,...

I think this really cannot be made to work with the commonly conceptualization that Jesus was "punished" or "condemned" on our behalf. It is quite clear that it is sin that is the target of God's wrath, not Jesus.

My view of the atonement will almost seem to some like a description of a chemical reaction. In very brief compass:

Paul seems to see sin not as a moral category, but rather as a real force, a real power that exists in the world. Paul, albeit cryptically, describes how God used Torah to "lure" or "trick" sin into being "localized" in national Israel. Once there, sin is likewise "lured" into the flesh of the one man - Jesus. Sin, seen here as a "force" or "power" or "agent" is now vulnerable. It has been drawn out of the dark hidden corners of the world and is now "in one place". God then attacks and breaks the power of sin.

In the process, Jesus dies. But not because he has been judicially condemned, but rather as a "side-effect" of the violence involved when God condemned his real target - sin.

Now I suspect this position does not map to either the "classical" or the "penal subsitution" models. And what I have described is very sketchy and admittedly incomplete.

But I have real problems with the penal substitution view, not least the way it seems to have atonement taking place "in the air" in some abstract "judicial space". I suspect, as per what I have said, that the atonement is decidedly more "concrete", almost physical in nature.

Butch, if you have any sympathy at all to what I am asserting, can you see a way to integrate this view with the "classical" or "ransom" view?


Hi Drew,

Your idea seems to follow closely to the Classic view of the atonement to a point. The power or force that you speak of is Satan, he is the god of this world. Basically the Classic view says that Adam and Eve had a choice in the garden, when the ate of the tree of good and evil. They could obey God or Satan. In eating of the tree they chose to follow Satan. Their sinning gave Satan dominion of them because they choose to obey him. Mankind was now alienated from God. Everyone born of Adam was under Satan's power also. So mankind not only needed to be forgiven, he also needed to be redeemed. God says throughout the Scriptures that He will forgive sins, but that only solves half of the problem mankind still needed to be redeemed. Satan's goal is to destroy mankind. Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice, a ransom. Satan had kidnapped mankind through deceiving Adam and Eve. In order to redeem mankind Christ offered Himself, a ransom, His life for ours. This is how He died for our sins. Satan put Him on that cross. After He died He was three day in the earth, He bound Satan (Jesus' parable of the strong man) and plundered his goods, the grave, hades where He preached to the dead of old, He conquered death and hades and he lead captivity captive upon His assent from hades. Finally He resurrected which was the fulfilment of the atonement.

This is kind of basic but I think it get the point across.

Where you deviate is in Christ's death, it was not incidental, it was paramount. Only Christ could have defeated Satan. It had to be man that defeated Satan.

One thing that is wonderful about this view is that it fits the entirety of Scripture, no confusing verses, no sweeping verses under the rug, they all just fit. Also it is the earliest model of the atonement. I look at it like this, This is the model held to by Ignatius, a disciple of the Apostle John, the model held to by Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John, the model held to by Clement of Rome, (mentioned in the Bible) disciple of the Apostle Paul.
Surely if this was not the correct understanding of the atonement the apostles would have corrected their own disciples.

I didn't include the Scripture references to keep the post together, however if anyone would like I can post them.

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 07:47 PM
That's a good point you make Butch, with the human-sacrifice thing, not just child. I mean, can you imagine what the world would have been like if Jehovah allowed Abram to offer Isaac that day. It would have been a seal of approval for you-know-what. But just to keep it clear that He abhors human sacrifice, he provided a LAMB.

You do know that Jesus was not offered TO Jehovah as a sacrifice though! For one thing He gave Himself (Acts 8:32; Jer 11:19).

I think I'll rest here. My tabs will remain here cos its quite an inspiring discuss. It has made me re-appreciate God's love towards me and man. We tend to forget once we begin to know a lot. My evangelism has hit another height and that to me is the purpose of this forum...to provoke one another to love and to good works.

Then again, Butch, why do you think Jesus died? I mean if it was necessary that He die to redeem us, to atone for man, then there was a price. Like I said, if to 'redeem' then we were sold out in the first place. Was there not a justice which can be satisfied only by death? This time though, it had to be eternal (Heb 10:10-14)

Thank you :hug:


Hi Steps,

I think I covered this for you in the post to Drew. There was a price to be paid, it was a ransom demand. Christ said He came to give himself a ransom for many. A ransom is paid to the kidnapper, not the child's father.

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 08:19 PM
Hey, that's fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. Please, do keep adding input. I'm not so much asserting that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm in the process of seeking truth, and I'm leaning toward the viewpoint I've put forth. I actually need honest, thoughtful dialog, debate and counter-points on the issue to flesh out whether it has legs to stand on. In order to find the breaking point of it (if there is one), I have to get other people's perspective. If you have something to say about the things I've said, I would truly appreciate hearing your thoughts.

[Edit]Sorry, don't know how I missed the last part of your post.

I think he went in the ground, dead until the resurrection.

I suppose he was exactly where the text says he was--in the ground, dead until he was resurrected.

I have not. Do you have a good link?

Hi Zombie,

Sorry if I sounded short, a lot of people ask questions to draw me into debate.

Regarding your position, I think the Ante-Nicene Fathers would help you immensely. The Ante-Nicene writers cover the period from the time of the apostles to right before the council of Nicea. From about 70 AD to 325 AD. This period is important because it is before the church/state mix. Once the state mixed with the church you began having corruption. Some of these writers were disciples of the apostles themselves. I will also give you a link to a web page where you can purchase cd's or downloads of their teaching. They are inexpensive, $4.45 for a 70 min cd or download. You should look at the ones called "Descent into Hades" and "Life After Death". David Bercott ( he is a title lawyer) explains the teachings then gives quotes from the ECF's and Scripture.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/early-christian-downloads.html

Here is a link where you can read the writings, let me just say they are not light reading.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/

Butch5
Sep 19th 2008, 08:23 PM
Hey Drew,

I forgot, here is a link to a site where you can download some teaching on the two different models of the atonement. There are 3 cd's or downloads the discuss the two models. It is David Bercott who discusses this and He compares the what the early church taught along with Scripture. It is very good.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/early-christian-downloads.html

Butch

drew
Sep 19th 2008, 08:36 PM
So mankind not only needed to be forgiven, he also needed to be redeemed. God says throughout the Scriptures that He will forgive sins, but that only solves half of the problem mankind still needed to be redeemed. Satan's goal is to destroy mankind. Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice, a ransom. Satan had kidnapped mankind through deceiving Adam and Eve. In order to redeem mankind Christ offered Himself, a ransom, His life for ours. This is how He died for our sins.
How do you integrate Romans 8:3 into your position, when it states that sin was condemned on the cross (and not Jesus which is what I think you need to believe if you ascribe to penal substitution, which I know you do not). And what is the means by which we are "forgiven"? You have made an argument about how we are redeemed.


Where you deviate is in Christ's death, it was not incidental, it was paramount. Only Christ could have defeated Satan. It had to be man that defeated Satan.
I never meant to imply Jesus' death was incidental in any sense. Only Jesus can be the "receptacle" that "holds sins" as it is condemned. Romans 8:3 seems quite clear - it is sin, not Jesus, that is condemned on the cross. I am not sure how you integrate that into your position, although I am not suggesting you cannot.

zombieCat
Sep 19th 2008, 09:29 PM
Hi Zombie,

Sorry if I sounded short, a lot of people ask questions to draw me into debate.

Regarding your position, I think the Ante-Nicene Fathers would help you immensely. The Ante-Nicene writers cover the period from the time of the apostles to right before the council of Nicea. From about 70 AD to 325 AD. This period is important because it is before the church/state mix. Once the state mixed with the church you began having corruption. Some of these writers were disciples of the apostles themselves. I will also give you a link to a web page where you can purchase cd's or downloads of their teaching. They are inexpensive, $4.45 for a 70 min cd or download. You should look at the ones called "Descent into Hades" and "Life After Death". David Bercott ( he is a title lawyer) explains the teachings then gives quotes from the ECF's and Scripture.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/early-christian-downloads.html

Here is a link where you can read the writings, let me just say they are not light reading.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/Thanks for the info Butch, I will definitely check it out. As for "being short", no problem on my end. Coming from another non-Christian forum where people have a good idea of where I'm coming from, I was already in "debate mode". I should have introduced my position and let people get a feel for me before jumping right into things. Thanks again, and if anyone else has comments about the ideas I've presented thus far, please speak up.

Butch5
Sep 20th 2008, 03:40 AM
Drew---How do you integrate Romans 8:3 into your position, when it states that sin was condemned on the cross (and not Jesus which is what I think you need to believe if you ascribe to penal substitution, which I know you do not). And what is the means by which we are "forgiven"? You have made an argument about how we are redeemed.


I believe part of what Paul is saying in Romans 8:3 is that sin was condemned in the flesh, in other words when Christ died He defeated the devil who had the power of sin and death.

1 John 3:8 ( NKJV ) 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Notice John says that the purpose Christ was manifested was to destroy the works of the devil. This is the reason Christ came.


Hebrews 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Also Romans 8:3 does not mention the cross. I believe part of what Paul is speaking of here is Christ living the sinless life, His having fulfilled the law.

Forgiveness, God says throughout the Scriptures that He will for give our sins. We could not meet the standard of the law, so we are not righteous. Paul said that Christ is the end of the law for all those who believe. Since we could not reconcile ourselves to God, God had to reconcile man to Himself. Since we were unable to fulfill the law God sent Christ to do it.


Hebrews 10:3-12 ( KJV ) 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.



7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;




Notice he says sacrifice and burnt offerings could not take way sins Then He goes on to say that Christ had a body (to be as we are). Then He writes of Christ and says He came to do God's will. To fulfill the law, so he could be tempted just as we are, yet without sin. Then He says (which I believe is key) that God did not want sacrifices and burnt offerings, that God had no pleasure in them. Then immediately he says again that Christ came to do God's will. That Christ takes away the first that He may establish the second.`He fulfilled the law and established the new covenant. Then He says we are sanctified by one offering, the body of Christ,this is because He gave His life a ransom for us. God has placed a condition on His forgiveness, He requires that one have faith in what His Christ has done. If we have that faith then God grants us forgiveness.




Drew---I never meant to imply Jesus' death was incidental in any sense. Only Jesus can be the "receptacle" that "holds sins" as it is condemned. Romans 8:3 seems quite clear - it is sin, not Jesus, that is condemned on the cross. I am not sure how you integrate that into your position, although I am not suggesting you cannot.

Sorry Drew, I misunderstood you. I'm not sure about your statement, the recepticle that hold sin. Sin is not a thing that can be contained. It is a way we act. I think what Paul is referring to is Christ breaking the power of sin by defeating the devil.

Steps
Sep 20th 2008, 06:46 AM
Thats an interesting point make you make, Butch. But was the ransom paid to the Devil too when the Priests of old offered the Blood of rams, bullocks and goats seeing that these were a shadows?

Steps
Sep 20th 2008, 06:48 AM
Hi Steps,

I think I covered this for you in the post to Drew. There was a price to be paid, it was a ransom demand. Christ said He came to give himself a ransom for many. A ransom is paid to the kidnapper, not the child's father.
Thats an interesting point make you make, Butch. But was the ransom paid to the Devil too when the Priests of old offered the Blood of rams, bullocks and goats seeing that these were a shadows?

drew
Sep 20th 2008, 03:31 PM
Sin is not a thing that can be contained. It is a way we act.
I hope to respond to other elements of your post, but I can say something immediately about this. How do you justify this statement? Are you sure that you are not bringing "enlightenment" ideas to the concept of sin - ideas that simply do not permit thinking of sin as a real "power" or force?

I think that we can infer from Paul that he indeed sees sin a thing, a power, and not merely a "moral category" by which we classify actions.

Consider this from Romans 7:

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

I submit that if one approaches this text neutrally - having no a priori bias as to what sin actually is, one will be lead to conclude that sin is an agency, a force, a power, and not a moral category.

Granted, I can see how one could argue that Paul is speaking metaphorically here, describing sin as if it were an intelligent force.

But, I suspect one will not be able to substantiate the metaphorical reading with other texts or material.

On the other hand, the "sin as a real power or force" reading is arguably supported by:

1. The "original sin" argument whereby Adam's fall taints us almost "genetically" with the sin nature. It is hard to understand how we are "born sinners" if sin is simply moral category. If it is a "real" power or force, we can understand it to operate in the very "fiber of our DNA", thus making sense of the concept of original sin.

2. The argument that God uses Torah to "concentrate" or magnify sin in national Israel. I will not give the argument here, but Paul can be read as asserting that God uses Torah to "trick" sin into being concentrated in the nation of Israel, and then finally into Jesus own flesh. Such an argument is hard to make if sin is merely a "moral category".

I will say this to myself as much as I say it to you: Try to think like Paul's readership, 1st century Hebrews and Gentiles, and not as a post-enlightenment 21st century westerner. It is hard for the 21st century westerner to see sin as a "force" - it seems to smack of ghosts and things that go bump in the night. But I think that this is basically how Paul sees sin - as a "real power" in the real world.

brakelite
Sep 21st 2008, 02:16 AM
Sin is more than what we do. It is what we are. We commit sin because of what we are, we are not sinners because of what we do.
Jesus came to free us from the power of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, that we might live unto God in righteousness. Righteousness is imputed to us when we accept that Jesus gave His life on our behalf. We are justified, the price is paid, and we are redeemed and reconciled to the Father through the shed blood.Our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and we have grounds to rejoice and be assured of our salvation. But that is not the end of the matter. Jesus said clearly that if we should see life, we must abide in Him.
By abiding in Him we bear fruit unto God. Fruits of righteousness and holiness, that bear evidence that we are indeed the children of God. It is by these fruit that we are to be judged. They are the works that we do in loving response to that great love that God has shown to us through the sacrifice of His Son's life. They are works , first and foremost, of obedience. Obedience to His commandments is the opposite of sin. As sin is the fruit of who we are as sinners, so obedience is the fruit of who we are as born again children of God.

Through the resurrection, Christ's life and righteousness is imparted to us as a gift, and this enables us to walk in the Spirit free from the hold that the flesh and sin had over us. As we submit daily to the Spirit we can overcome sin. We are still however handicapped by the fact that we still live in this fallen world and that in the warfare that we are now part of, we will inevitably lose the odd battle. But the promises of God are still sure, and He is able to keep us from falling by His grace and power as we trust in Him. That the cross is but the first step on the road to salvation is clear. Without Christ's mediatorial ministry and His intercession on our behalf we would indeed fall. We must ever look to Him and be constantly trusting Him and His power and grace to keep our salvation secure. The just shall live by faith.

The current discussion as to who the debt is owed, to me is a no-brainer. We owe God our lives. We owe Him everything. That the cross is one of substitution from beginning to end is the crux of the gospel. Jesus died that I might live. He suffered the punishment of death that I deserved that I might have the life that He deserves.I am redeemed from the power of sin and the devil by the blood of Christ. I am indeed bought with a price. That price was the death of the Son of God. He did meet the full justice of the Father in my place. It is indeed sin that God judges. And if we cling to it, then we are doomed to suffer and share the same fate. Jesus took upon Himself the burden of sin. He was made sin for us. God judged that sin and Jesus shared the same fate.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Butch5
Sep 21st 2008, 05:16 AM
Sin is more than what we do. It is what we are. We commit sin because of what we are, we are not sinners because of what we do.
Jesus came to free us from the power of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, that we might live unto God in righteousness. Righteousness is imputed to us when we accept that Jesus gave His life on our behalf. We are justified, the price is paid, and we are redeemed and reconciled to the Father through the shed blood.Our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and we have grounds to rejoice and be assured of our salvation. But that is not the end of the matter. Jesus said clearly that if we should see life, we must abide in Him.
By abiding in Him we bear fruit unto God. Fruits of righteousness and holiness, that bear evidence that we are indeed the children of God. It is by these fruit that we are to be judged. They are the works that we do in loving response to that great love that God has shown to us through the sacrifice of His Son's life. They are works , first and foremost, of obedience. Obedience to His commandments is the opposite of sin. As sin is the fruit of who we are as sinners, so obedience is the fruit of who we are as born again children of God.

Through the resurrection, Christ's life and righteousness is imparted to us as a gift, and this enables us to walk in the Spirit free from the hold that the flesh and sin had over us. As we submit daily to the Spirit we can overcome sin. We are still however handicapped by the fact that we still live in this fallen world and that in the warfare that we are now part of, we will inevitably lose the odd battle. But the promises of God are still sure, and He is able to keep us from falling by His grace and power as we trust in Him. That the cross is but the first step on the road to salvation is clear. Without Christ's mediatorial ministry and His intercession on our behalf we would indeed fall. We must ever look to Him and be constantly trusting Him and His power and grace to keep our salvation secure. The just shall live by faith.

The current discussion as to who the debt is owed, to me is a no-brainer. We owe God our lives. We owe Him everything. That the cross is one of substitution from beginning to end is the crux of the gospel. Jesus died that I might live. He suffered the punishment of death that I deserved that I might have the life that He deserves.I am redeemed from the power of sin and the devil by the blood of Christ. I am indeed bought with a price. That price was the death of the Son of God. He did meet the full justice of the Father in my place. It is indeed sin that God judges. And if we cling to it, then we are doomed to suffer and share the same fate. Jesus took upon Himself the burden of sin. He was made sin for us. God judged that sin and Jesus shared the same fate.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Hi brakelite,

I agree with a lot of what you say. However I don't agree with your opening statement. I believe we are sinners because we sin, not that we sin because we are sinners. Also the Scripture you posted in which Jesus offered Himself to God does not contradict Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for many.

Let me ask you this, how did Christ fulfill the law? Was it by living the law perfectly without sin? Or was it by His death?

Butch5
Sep 21st 2008, 05:25 AM
Thats an interesting point make you make, Butch. But was the ransom paid to the Devil too when the Priests of old offered the Blood of rams, bullocks and goats seeing that these were a shadows?

They were types, Hebrews says the blood of bulls and goats could not take way sins. So there was no ransom with these. If these had ransomed mankind, Christ would not have had to die.

Steps
Sep 21st 2008, 07:49 PM
Actually Butch, I actually agree with you on the the fact that Jesus gave Himself as ransom for man.

But I ask, was it the Devil who told Jehova that he would only collect the blood of man as ransom? Was it he who decided that there would be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood? Where is the Holy of holies? Before God or before the Devil? If I remember well, Jehova gave moses the pattern of the Holy of holies based on its original pattern in heaven (which is where Jesus entered). Did the devil established it that the Holy of holies can only be purged by blood, be it of goat, ram or bullock or man? Be it typological or not.

The reason why ask is for us to have a firm understanding
of why the death is to appease satan not God.

And how is it that when we sin today (as christians) it is Jesus that liveth to make intercession for us before God; Its he that we have as an advocate before God and satan is the accuser of the brethren...still.

Butch5
Sep 21st 2008, 10:06 PM
Actually Butch, I actually agree with you on the the fact that Jesus gave Himself as ransom for man.

But I ask, was it the Devil who told Jehova that he would only collect the blood of man as ransom? Was it he who decided that there would be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood? Where is the Holy of holies? Before God or before the Devil? If I remember well, Jehova gave moses the pattern of the Holy of holies based on its original pattern in heaven (which is where Jesus entered). Did the devil established it that the Holy of holies can only be purged by blood, be it of goat, ram or bullock or man? Be it typological or not.

The reason why ask is for us to have a firm understanding
of why the death is to appease satan not God.


And how is it that when we sin today (as christians) it is Jesus that liveth to make intercession for us before God; Its he that we have as an advocate before God and satan is the accuser of the brethren...still.

Hi Steps,

Remember there are two aspects we are dealing with. Man had to be both redeemed and forgiven. Scripture says that the devil has the power of death, his goal is to destroy mankind. The shedding comes from the fact that Christ gave his life in our place. someone had to die. The other aspect regarding forgiveness, yes Jesus make intercession because we still sin, we are in continual need of forgiveness.

Butch5
Sep 21st 2008, 10:17 PM
I hope to respond to other elements of your post, but I can say something immediately about this. How do you justify this statement? Are you sure that you are not bringing "enlightenment" ideas to the concept of sin - ideas that simply do not permit thinking of sin as a real "power" or force?

I think that we can infer from Paul that he indeed sees sin a thing, a power, and not merely a "moral category" by which we classify actions.

Consider this from Romans 7:

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

I submit that if one approaches this text neutrally - having no a priori bias as to what sin actually is, one will be lead to conclude that sin is an agency, a force, a power, and not a moral category.

Granted, I can see how one could argue that Paul is speaking metaphorically here, describing sin as if it were an intelligent force.

But, I suspect one will not be able to substantiate the metaphorical reading with other texts or material.

On the other hand, the "sin as a real power or force" reading is arguably supported by:

1. The "original sin" argument whereby Adam's fall taints us almost "genetically" with the sin nature. It is hard to understand how we are "born sinners" if sin is simply moral category. If it is a "real" power or force, we can understand it to operate in the very "fiber of our DNA", thus making sense of the concept of original sin.

2. The argument that God uses Torah to "concentrate" or magnify sin in national Israel. I will not give the argument here, but Paul can be read as asserting that God uses Torah to "trick" sin into being concentrated in the nation of Israel, and then finally into Jesus own flesh. Such an argument is hard to make if sin is merely a "moral category".

I will say this to myself as much as I say it to you: Try to think like Paul's readership, 1st century Hebrews and Gentiles, and not as a post-enlightenment 21st century westerner. It is hard for the 21st century westerner to see sin as a "force" - it seems to smack of ghosts and things that go bump in the night. But I think that this is basically how Paul sees sin - as a "real power" in the real world.

I will get to your post in more detail but have a quick question. If sin is a force or supernatural spirit that is evil, how does it draw it's strength from the law, the law of God? I do believe Paul is speaking Metaphorically.

Steps
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:53 PM
I will get to your post in more detail but have a quick question. If sin is a force or supernatural spirit that is evil, how does it draw it's strength from the law, the law of God? I do believe Paul is speaking Metaphorically.
Butch, you are asking about the same question that Paul asked in Rom 7: 7,13.

What I know is that Sin has always been there. Otherwise there would be no devil. (Same way gravity has been there all along until it was revealed.) It was powerless (dead) without the law; there was no condemnation. There was no basis for it.

Now this could mean two things: One, that man lived his life in the right way unconscious of the possibilty of condemnation, or two, we did those things which the law came later to condemned. Man was separated from God, condemned to death...what difference did it make how we lived. So sin didn't 'exit'. Who was condemning us. The same way the bible says, that Jesus didn't come not into the world to condemn the world but that whoever does not believe in Him is CONDEMNED ALREADY. So man's righteousness is filthy rags. As christians we are not righteous because we do righteous things, we are righteous because we declared righteous.

So the law was basically God's extending arm of reconciliation. But the coming of the law brought condemnation at its wake. Now we know, A, B, C is sin. As it happens, we (man) have given our members as servants to sin through these years (time) of ignorance. The light has shined in darkness but, not surprising, man preferred darkness. The Law was spiritual; man was carnal, sold under sin.

Whether its a force or not, I can't define that. But Paul recounts the experience of christians when he says that ''that which I do, I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. That he sees another law in his members, warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members.

The bible speaks of the power of Sin. It certainly has a hold on our members until we through the spirit mortify its deeds. So can we say it is the nature of our members which is sold out to sin? May be. Or not. But when God formed man, did He form him to sin. I think not. The scripture says we were 'subjected' to sin (Rom 8:20). I have to say, you can only subject to a force. It doesn't make any difference, Jesus has made us free from the Power of Sin. Thats all that matters now.

But, the interesting thing is, before The Law, before man, there was Lucifer...later Satan, felled by SIN.

Ah, what fables? Lets live the glorious life in Christ now!!!!! Can I get an AMEN!?!

drew
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:10 PM
I will get to your post in more detail but have a quick question. If sin is a force or supernatural spirit that is evil, how does it draw it's strength from the law, the law of God? I do believe Paul is speaking Metaphorically.
I do not have an answer to that question. But the absence of an answer does not undermine what I see as Paul's clear claim. Sin does seem to be strengthened and empowered by the Torah. This seems deeply counterintuitive unless one grasps the subtle argument that Paul is making (and trust me, I did not come up with this myself): Israel is acting out the Christ pattern- just like Jesus, she is being "cast away for the sin of the world". More specifically, God is using Israel as a "sponge" for sin, localizing it, concentrating it, bringing it into a position of "exposed vulnerabilty.

This is how Israel blesses the world - this is her election - to be the place where the sin of the world is localized before it is localized in a single place - her representative Messiah. And there sin is condemned (Romans 8:3).

Butch5
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:16 PM
I do not have an answer to that question. But the absence of an answer does not undermine what I see as Paul's clear claim. Sin does seem to be strengthened and empowered by the Torah. This seems deeply counterintuitive unless one grasps the subtle argument that Paul is making (and trust me, I did not come up with this myself): Israel is acting out the Christ pattern- just like Jesus, she is being "cast away for the sin of the world". More specifically, God is using Israel as a "sponge" for sin, localizing it, concentrating it, bringing it into a position of "exposed vulnerabilty.

This is how Israel blesses the world - this is her election - to be the place where the sin of the world is localized before it is localized in a single place - her representative Messiah. And there sin is condemned (Romans 8:3).

Hi Drew,

I'm saying your wrong just don't understand how sin can be a force. I have understood Paul to be speaking Metaphorically, which I think is clear. Especially when He says " the came and I died". The Scripture says the power of sin is the law, so I'm just trying to understand your position.

Butch5
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:25 PM
Butch, you are asking about the same question that Paul asked in Rom 7: 7,13.

What I know is that Sin has always been there. Otherwise there would be no devil. (Same way gravity has been there all along until it was revealed.) It was powerless (dead) without the law; there was no condemnation. There was no basis for it.

Now this could mean two things: One, that man lived his life in the right way unconscious of the possibilty of condemnation, or two, we did those things which the law came later to condemned. Man was separated from God, condemned to death...what difference did it make how we lived. So sin didn't 'exit'. Who was condemning us. The same way the bible says, that Jesus didn't come not into the world to condemn the world but that whoever does not believe in Him is CONDEMNED ALREADY. So man's righteousness is filthy rags. As christians we are not righteous because we do righteous things, we are righteous because we declared righteous.

So the law was basically God's extending arm of reconciliation. But the coming of the law brought condemnation at its wake. Now we know, A, B, C is sin. As it happens, we (man) have given our members as servants to sin through these years (time) of ignorance. The light has shined in darkness but, not surprising, man preferred darkness. The Law was spiritual; man was carnal, sold under sin.

Whether its a force or not, I can't define that. But Paul recounts the experience of christians when he says that ''that which I do, I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. That he sees another law in his members, warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members.

The bible speaks of the power of Sin. It certainly has a hold on our members until we through the spirit mortify its deeds. So can we say it is the nature of our members which is sold out to sin? May be. Or not. But when God formed man, did He form him to sin. I think not. The scripture says we were 'subjected' to sin (Rom 8:20). I have to say, you can only subject to a force. It doesn't make any difference, Jesus has made us free from the Power of Sin. Thats all that matters now.

But, the interesting thing is, before The Law, before man, there was Lucifer...later Satan, felled by SIN.

Ah, what fables? Lets live the glorious life in Christ now!!!!! Can I get an AMEN!?!


Hi Steps,

I was asking a specific question of Drew's position. However regarding your post, I don't believe we are righteous, the Scriptures say that through faith we "counted" righteous, there's a big difference.

Butch5
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:30 PM
I hope to respond to other elements of your post, but I can say something immediately about this. How do you justify this statement? Are you sure that you are not bringing "enlightenment" ideas to the concept of sin - ideas that simply do not permit thinking of sin as a real "power" or force?

I think that we can infer from Paul that he indeed sees sin a thing, a power, and not merely a "moral category" by which we classify actions.

Consider this from Romans 7:

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

I submit that if one approaches this text neutrally - having no a priori bias as to what sin actually is, one will be lead to conclude that sin is an agency, a force, a power, and not a moral category.

Granted, I can see how one could argue that Paul is speaking metaphorically here, describing sin as if it were an intelligent force.

But, I suspect one will not be able to substantiate the metaphorical reading with other texts or material.

On the other hand, the "sin as a real power or force" reading is arguably supported by:

1. The "original sin" argument whereby Adam's fall taints us almost "genetically" with the sin nature. It is hard to understand how we are "born sinners" if sin is simply moral category. If it is a "real" power or force, we can understand it to operate in the very "fiber of our DNA", thus making sense of the concept of original sin.

2. The argument that God uses Torah to "concentrate" or magnify sin in national Israel. I will not give the argument here, but Paul can be read as asserting that God uses Torah to "trick" sin into being concentrated in the nation of Israel, and then finally into Jesus own flesh. Such an argument is hard to make if sin is merely a "moral category".

I will say this to myself as much as I say it to you: Try to think like Paul's readership, 1st century Hebrews and Gentiles, and not as a post-enlightenment 21st century westerner. It is hard for the 21st century westerner to see sin as a "force" - it seems to smack of ghosts and things that go bump in the night. But I think that this is basically how Paul sees sin - as a "real power" in the real world.

Hi Drew,

I also don't necessarily hold to the idea of "original sin"

Steps
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:23 PM
First, Butch, I said we are declared righteous, by faith of course, and u said we are counted righteous. Is there a difference? Feel free to say that righteousness was imputed to us. We are saying the same thing, I hope.

Second, when God declares/counts you righteous, who are you pleasing by not believing and saying that you are. If you don't believe you are righteous then the advocacy of Jesus must be for the wrong person. If we have an advocate before the Father, the man Jesus, daily declaring our innocence/righteousness, it would be wrong for you to answer anyone, devil included, who asks you if you are righteous, NO. That will make the death of Christ of no effect.

Finally, what difference does it make if sin is a force or whatever you attribute it to? Sin is sin. Live no longer therein as Christians, that's what matters now.

Butch5
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:19 AM
First, Butch, I said we are declared righteous, by faith of course, and u said we are counted righteous. Is there a difference? Feel free to say that righteousness was imputed to us. We are saying the same thing, I hope.

Second, when God declares/counts you righteous, who are you pleasing by not believing and saying that you are. If you don't believe you are righteous then the advocacy of Jesus must be for the wrong person. If we have an advocate before the Father, the man Jesus, daily declaring our innocence/righteousness, it would be wrong for you to answer anyone, devil included, who asks you if you are righteous, NO. That will make the death of Christ of no effect.

Finally, what difference does it make if sin is a force or whatever you attribute it to? Sin is sin. Live no longer therein as Christians, that's what matters now.

Hi Steps,

We can use the word impute, it means to count as, so we are counted as righteous. The Scriptures say there is none righteous. Christ is righteous, He never sinned, God is righteous, He never sinned. We have all sinned so we can only be counted as righteous. Through faith as you said.

Why is Jesus interceding for us? because we are not righteous. If we were, then He would not need to intercede.

The question of sin was in regard to the position that Drew posted. I was trying to understand his position.

Steps
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:34 PM
Hi Steps,

We can use the word impute, it means to count as, so we are counted as righteous. The Scriptures say there is none righteous. Christ is righteous, He never sinned, God is righteous, He never sinned. We have all sinned so we can only be counted as righteous. Through faith as you said.

Why is Jesus interceding for us? because we are not righteous. If we were, then He would not need to intercede.

The question of sin was in regard to the position that Drew posted. I was trying to understand his position.

What can I say, I guess its good to know that in a court of law, the accused is guilty just because his advocate/lawyer is making a case for him. Now thats a thought!

Butch5
Sep 24th 2008, 12:46 AM
What can I say, I guess its good to know that in a court of law, the accused is guilty just because his advocate/lawyer is making a case for him. Now thats a thought!

He's not guilty because the makes a case for him. However, if someone commits a crime and the judge drops the charges, does that mean the person didn't commit the crime?

brakelite
Sep 24th 2008, 08:11 AM
Hi brakelite,

I agree with a lot of what you say. However I don't agree with your opening statement. I believe we are sinners because we sin, not that we sin because we are sinners.
Adam and Eve, because they were perfect, became sinners because they sinned. We we however inherited the sinful nature. We are depraved to the core. Our nature is to sin, and we sin because of it. Until we are born again. Then we sin because we choose to ignore God's commandments, or we choose to live according to the flesh rather than the Spirit.

Also the Scripture you posted in which Jesus offered Himself to God does not contradict Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for many.

Let me ask you this, how did Christ fulfill the law? Was it by living the law perfectly without sin? Or was it by His death?
I believe Christ fulfilled the law by obeying and keeping every commandment of God. As you say, a life without sin. And by the way, because He did it, it screams that there is hope for us to do it also.

Butch5
Sep 24th 2008, 01:32 PM
brakelite---Adam and Eve, because they were perfect, became sinners because they sinned. We we however inherited the sinful nature. We are depraved to the core. Our nature is to sin, and we sin because of it. Until we are born again. Then we sin because we choose to ignore God's commandments, or we choose to live according to the flesh rather than the Spirit.


Can you show this from Scripture??

What happened when Adam and Eve eat from the tree? Their eyes were opened and the knew good from evil. Because they disobeyed God, God cursed the ground and said that Eve would suffer in Child birth. If Adam didn't have a sin nature before He sinned, where did this sin nature come from after He sinned. The Scriptures don't say anything about Adam being cursed, They don't say anything about His offspring being cursed. Does God have a sin nature, the Scriptures say that we were made in the image of God.


brakelite---I believe Christ fulfilled the law by obeying and keeping every commandment of God. As you say, a life without sin. And by the way, because He did it, it screams that there is hope for us to do it also.

OK, if Christ fulfilled the law by living it perfectly without sin, and this is counted to you as righteousness through faith, this is the basis (fulfilment of God's justice) for God's forgiveness. Please explain to me how it was Christ's death was the fulfilled God's justice.

Steps
Sep 24th 2008, 07:22 PM
He's not guilty because the makes a case for him. However, if someone commits a crime and the judge drops the charges, does that mean the person didn't commit the crime?

Thats a good point. But what do you think of the state of mind of the person whom the judge had dropped the charges yet he keeps believing, thinking, and worst of all, saying that he's guilty.

You ask what is the finished work of Christ. There it is.
That he is rich but was made poor that we in substitution of his poverty might be rich. By his stripes we are healed. He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we may become the righteousness of God in him...by faith of course. Which is why he calls us his righteous ones.
If I then ask you are you healed? Are you rich? You would answer, No. Its either you are wrong or the word of God is. The word is not.

My actual concern is that our belief system influences our faith and this determines the quality of life we lead as christians.

Steps
Sep 24th 2008, 07:33 PM
One more thing, Butch. Is there anywhere it says in bible that you are a sinner after you become a christian? Or that you are unrighteous after you've become a christian.

Am sure that know that that you sin (as a christian) does not make you a sinner

Steps
Sep 24th 2008, 09:31 PM
Oh dear. I think I made a terrible blunder with my penultimate post.

The judge CANNOT drop a charge. Only the accuser can. (Which we both know doesn't happen with the devil.) But the judge can declare you 'NOT GUILTY'. This is exactly what happened. Surely we both agree that once this happens that case is over...in that court. Unfortunately, there's no higher court. So the accuser keeps coming before the same judge on the same matter. What do you think the judgement will be.

BUT I wonder what the case will be when the one who has been declared not guilty goes around declaring that he's is guilty...to the hearing of all parties. Sincerly, I wonder!

9Marksfan
Sep 24th 2008, 10:55 PM
Oh dear. I think I made a terrible blunder with my penultimate post.

The judge CANNOT drop a charge. Only the accuser can. (Which we both know doesn't happen with the devil.)

Correct - you beat me to it!


But the judge can declare you 'NOT GUILTY'.

Yes, but only for two reasons - either there is insufficient evidence to sustain the charge (no case to answer) - clearly not the case with our sin - or there is a legal reason why we should not be convicted (eg we acted in self-defence).

Now a judge who acquits when He SHOULD convict would be an UNJUST judge! Imagine a case where there has been a heinous murder of a young child - the family are in court, hoping for justice - the judge hears the evidence, which is overwhelming - but decides to acquit the accused, even though there is no evidential or legal reason to do so - THE VICTIM'S FAMILY WOULD RIGHTLY BE OUTRAGED! IT WOULD BE A TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE! Now God is perfectly just so how can He deal with us? How can He be just and yet not condemn us but instread justify us (declare us righteous)? There is a way - Someone takes our punishment on our behalf - and that is precisely what Jesus did - and what Rom 3:26 teaches. We can only be forgiven if Christ paid the full price for our sins. And we can only be declared righteous if we trust in HIS righteousness - THAT is the gospel in a nutshell.


BUT I wonder what the case will be when the one who has been declared not guilty goes around declaring that he's is guilty...to the hearing of all parties. Sincerly, I wonder!

The thing is that we ARE guilty - but have been DECLARED righteous - both are true (however paradoxical that may seem....).

Butch5
Sep 25th 2008, 01:55 AM
One more thing, Butch. Is there anywhere it says in bible that you are a sinner after you become a christian? Or that you are unrighteous after you've become a christian.

Am sure that know that that you sin (as a christian) does not make you a sinner


1 Timothy 1:15 ( KJV ) 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



James 5:19-20 ( KJV ) . 19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Ezekiel 3:20 ( KJV ) 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


Ezekiel 33:18 ( KJV ) 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Butch5
Sep 25th 2008, 02:00 AM
Oh dear. I think I made a terrible blunder with my penultimate post.

The judge CANNOT drop a charge. Only the accuser can. (Which we both know doesn't happen with the devil.) But the judge can declare you 'NOT GUILTY'. This is exactly what happened. Surely we both agree that once this happens that case is over...in that court. Unfortunately, there's no higher court. So the accuser keeps coming before the same judge on the same matter. What do you think the judgement will be.

BUT I wonder what the case will be when the one who has been declared not guilty goes around declaring that he's is guilty...to the hearing of all parties. Sincerly, I wonder!

You are missing one crucial point, the judgment has not been made yet! The judgment will be made when Christ returns, at the resurrection. So until that time you will be judged righteous. That is why I said you are counted as righteous, your faith is counted as righteousness, as Paul says "IF" you continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.


Colossians 1:19-23 ( KJV ) 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

What do you think happens if you don't continue in the faith? Paul said you will be presented holy and unblamable IF you continue in the faith. If you don't continue in the faith you will not be judged righteous at the judgment.

Butch5
Sep 25th 2008, 02:14 AM
Correct - you beat me to it!



Yes, but only for two reasons - either there is insufficient evidence to sustain the charge (no case to answer) - clearly not the case with our sin - or there is a legal reason why we should not be convicted (eg we acted in self-defence).

Now a judge who acquits when He SHOULD convict would be an UNJUST judge! Imagine a case where there has been a heinous murder of a young child - the family are in court, hoping for justice - the judge hears the evidence, which is overwhelming - but decides to acquit the accused, even though there is no evidential or legal reason to do so - THE VICTIM'S FAMILY WOULD RIGHTLY BE OUTRAGED! IT WOULD BE A TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE! Now God is perfectly just so how can He deal with us? How can He be just and yet not condemn us but instread justify us (declare us righteous)? There is a way - Someone takes our punishment on our behalf - and that is precisely what Jesus did - and what Rom 3:26 teaches. We can only be forgiven if Christ paid the full price for our sins. And we can only be declared righteous if we trust in HIS righteousness - THAT is the gospel in a nutshell.



The thing is that we ARE guilty - but have been DECLARED righteous - both are true (however paradoxical that may seem....).


You have one major flaw in your theory. God is not judging us for sins against someone else, He is judging us for sins against himself. Therefore if He chooses to forgive He has every right to.

However you still have not even shown from Scripture where it says that God requires payment.

You also have not shown how a debt can be both paid and forgiven when they are mutually exclusive.

Steps
Sep 25th 2008, 08:14 AM
Funny I don't understand what exactly we are going on about. It seems to me we have same understanding. Your citation clearly declares these ones righteous to start with. Whether or not they go to hell if they die in sin after that they have received Christ, that we will know at the resurrection, I admit. Then again do you think any man will ever qualify to be righteous before God. It remains that it is God that can declare you righteous. You are righteous only to the extent that God declare you so to be.

One thing is clear: when we are born again, we are no longer sinners. We can only be either. If you sin after that you went out of ur way. Which means it is not consistent with ur current nature.

If we keep thinking that we simply made a choice to do righteous things, then wait for the resurrection to determine know our fate, then we are indeed of all men most miserable. We have to understand that God impacts His life in us when we receive Jesus Christ as lord and saviour.

By the way, are we going to wait for resurrection to know if we are healed or rich.

9Marksfan
Sep 25th 2008, 02:52 PM
You have one major flaw in your theory. God is not judging us for sins against someone else, He is judging us for sins against himself.

Fair point - I was simply seeking to show how God would be unjsut if He acquitted the guilty (there's a verse that says this is wicked and God hates it - not sure where - Proverbs?) - UNLESS He found another way for His justice to be satisfied.


Therefore if He chooses to forgive He has every right to.

Granted, but He would no longer be just. And He cannot be untrue to His character.


However you still have not even shown from Scripture where it says that God requires payment.

Thanks for reminding me - I remembered the other day but forgot to post:-

Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." Matt 18:23-35 NKJV

This parable teaches that trespasses are a debt, whether to God or to our fellow man. The Lord's prayer encourages to pray that God would forgive our debts to Him.


You also have not shown how a debt can be both paid and forgiven when they are mutually exclusive.

Not in God's economy - God always forgives on the basis of a price paid - Heb 9:22 - it has to be through the shedding of blood - from Abel onwards. When Jesus cried from the cross "It is finished", he meant "the price has been paid" - which is what tetalestai means.

Let me ask you a question - why do you think that Paul says that God can be both just AND the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus in Rom 3:26? Is it not because if He were just, He would have to condemn - and if he were to justify WITHOUT Christ dying in our place, He would not be just, because He would be overlooking sin - which He cannot do,as His justice will not allow it - in the same way justice would not allow a judge to overlook a guilty accused's crime.

Butch5
Sep 25th 2008, 09:08 PM
9Marksfan---Fair point - I was simply seeking to show how God would be unjsut if He acquitted the guilty (there's a verse that says this is wicked and God hates it - not sure where - Proverbs?) - UNLESS He found another way for His justice to be satisfied.


There is a verse that says God hates it when someone justifies the wicked. However this verse is speaking of someone giving approval to or condoning the conduct of the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15 ( KJV ) 15He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

When God justifies us He is not giving approval to our wickedness, He is forgiving it.
Also can you show me Scripture that says God cannot acquit the guilty without being unjust?



9Marksfan---Granted, but He would no longer be just. And He cannot be untrue to His character.

By who's definition of Just?


9Marksfan---Thanks for reminding me - I remembered the other day but forgot to post:-
Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." Matt 18:23-35 NKJV



This parable teaches that trespasses are a debt, whether to God or to our fellow man. The Lord's prayer encourages to pray that God would forgive our debts to Him.


I have to disagree with you here, where you say this teaches that our trespasses are a debt. The parable clearly speaks of money. Money was owed to this king not obedience. What I see here is forgiveness with no payment. Also notice that Jesus said, the servant didn't forgive his fellow servant so the king withdrew his forgiveness. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like this. This poses a problem for those who say you can't lose your salvation, Jesus said if you don't forgive men their sins, Your Father won't forgive you your sins.

25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.




9Marksfan---Not in God's economy - God always forgives on the basis of a price paid - Heb 9:22 - it has to be through the shedding of blood - from Abel onwards. When Jesus cried from the cross "It is finished", he meant "the price has been paid" - which is what tetalestai means.

Why do you suppose the phrase was translated "it is finished" if the Greek words mean "the price has been paid"?


9Marksfan---Let me ask you a question - why do you think that Paul says that God can be both just AND the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus in Rom 3:26? Is it not because if He were just, He would have to condemn - and if he were to justify WITHOUT Christ dying in our place, He would not be just, because He would be overlooking sin - which He cannot do,as His justice will not allow it - in the same way justice would not allow a judge to overlook a guilty accused's crime.

First, I think you should look at this idea of justice and see what the Scriptures say about it, without taking any bias to the Scriptures.
About Romans 3:26, Paul is speaking of the past. Notice in verse 25, God has made Him (Jesus) a propitiation for sins that are past. The sins of the OT. So how is God just and the justifier? Jesus said no one can come to the Father but by me. So then how were the OT saints saved? They never had a chance to come to Christ. God made Jesus a propitiation for their sins (sins that are past). So God is just because, He made faith in Christ a requirement of salvation and the OT saints never had a chance to have faith, God making Jesus a propitiation for their sins gives everyone the opportunity for salvation and no one can say they didn't have a chance. No one is left out, therefore making God just.
God is the justifier because He is the one who made the way and the one who counts us righteous.

Butch5
Sep 25th 2008, 09:11 PM
Funny I don't understand what exactly we are going on about. It seems to me we have same understanding. Your citation clearly declares these ones righteous to start with. Whether or not they go to hell if they die in sin after that they have received Christ, that we will know at the resurrection, I admit. Then again do you think any man will ever qualify to be righteous before God. It remains that it is God that can declare you righteous. You are righteous only to the extent that God declare you so to be.

One thing is clear: when we are born again, we are no longer sinners. We can only be either. If you sin after that you went out of ur way. Which means it is not consistent with ur current nature.

If we keep thinking that we simply made a choice to do righteous things, then wait for the resurrection to determine know our fate, then we are indeed of all men most miserable. We have to understand that God impacts His life in us when we receive Jesus Christ as lord and saviour.

By the way, are we going to wait for resurrection to know if we are healed or rich.

Paul considers Himself a sinner.

Steps
Sep 26th 2008, 04:58 AM
Paul considers Himself a sinner.
Thats not true. He was referring to the past.

I wonder what you would say of the scripture that says whatsoever is born of God does not commit sin, and CANNOT sin, because His seed remains in him (1 John 3:9).

I am the righteousness of God in Christ. If God says I am righteous, not even my mother can tell me otherwise let alone make me believe it, or worst of all, make me say it. Sin is the least of our concerns. In fact, it is NOT in our nature as christian to sin. But of course we give it a lot of attention and it will take occasion of it cos out of our hearts are the issues of our lives. Lets try giving more attention to the word and fellowship, lets take it to the unreached, and watch sin lose relevance and living a holy and righteous life become a way of life. You do not even think about it, you just live holy every second of everyday, for years.

I struggled with sin for long until I realized I was trying to live the Life of God my way. Its not a struggle any more because I learnt it is He that lives in me to will and to do His good pleasures. I have understood what it means to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh. I guess I cannot explain it to someone who believes he's not righteous. I AM RIGHTEOUS. If for no other reason, GOD SAYS I AM.

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2008, 09:33 AM
Thats not true. He was referring to the past.

Why do all the translations say "AM the worst", then?


I wonder what you would say of the scripture that says whatsoever is born of God does not commit sin, and CANNOT sin, because His seed remains in him (1 John 3:9).

If you knew any Greek, you would know that the verbs in that verse (as in so many verses in 1 John) are in the present continuous tense - that is why many translations make this clear:-

NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

NASB No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Amplified No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

ESV No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


I am the righteousness of God in Christ. If God says I am righteous, not even my mother can tell me otherwise let alone make me believe it, or worst of all, make me say it.

Positionally, you are correct. In daily living, absolutely not - if we were, then we would be divine - sinlessly perfect - and only Christ is - why do you think the Bible tells us to PURSUE and PERFECT holiness if we are LITERALLY perfect already? Why does it tell us to put to death the sin that REMAINS?


Sin is the least of our concerns.

This is completely unbiblical nad VERY dangerous - sin is the GREATEST of our concerns! We have to HATE it, FIGHT it, CONQUER it and DESTROY it - DAILY until we die!


In fact, it is NOT in our nature as christian to sin.

But do you accept that we do?


But of course we give it a lot of attention and it will take occasion of it cos out of our hearts are the issues of our lives. Lets try giving more attention to the word and fellowship, lets take it to the unreached, and watch sin lose relevance and living a holy and righteous life become a way of life. You do not even think about it, you just live holy every second of everyday, for years.

That is completely unbiblical - we CANNOT be holy UNLESS we WAGE WAR against our sinful desires and PUT THEM TO DEATH BY THE SPIRIT - have you not read Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians and Colossians (for starters)?


I struggled with sin for long until I realized I was trying to live the Life of God my way. Its not a struggle any more because I learnt it is He that lives in me to will and to do His good pleasures. I have understood what it means to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh. I guess I cannot explain it to someone who believes he's not righteous. I AM RIGHTEOUS. If for no other reason, GOD SAYS I AM.

God also tells you to PUT TO DEATH your sinful desires - DAILY - PUT OFF the old man - it is a STRUGGLE - why have you stopped struggling? Scripture COMMANDS us to struggle.

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2008, 10:05 AM
There is a verse that says God hates it when someone justifies the wicked. However this verse is speaking of someone giving approval to or condoning the conduct of the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15 ( KJV ) 15He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

When God justifies us He is not giving approval to our wickedness, He is forgiving it.

If He does not require punishment for it, He IS condoning it.


Also can you show me Scripture that says God cannot acquit the guilty without being unjust?

How do you define justice?


By who's definition of Just?

God's. When Christ comes to pur out the warth of God on those who have rejected Him, will that be just? If He forgave everyone, would that be just?


I have to disagree with you here, where you say this teaches that our trespasses are a debt. The parable clearly speaks of money.

If you can't see from the end of the parable that money is clearly being equated with trespasses, there's nothing more I can say.


Money was owed to this king not obedience.

Where does Jesus say that? In fact He says elsewhere "render unto God that which is God's" - now, does that include obedience?


What I see here is forgiveness with no payment.

Why? Someone always has to pay - when some in business is not paid, and the business still has bills to pay, how are they paid?


Also notice that Jesus said, the servant didn't forgive his fellow servant so the king withdrew his forgiveness. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like this. This poses a problem for those who say you can't lose your salvation, Jesus said if you don't forgive men their sins, Your Father won't forgive you your sins.

:OFFT:


Why do you suppose the phrase was translated "it is finished" if the Greek words mean "the price has been paid"?

The work of atoning for our sin that Christ said He came to do had been finished - the pouring out of God's wrath on Christ was finished.


First, I think you should look at this idea of justice and see what the Scriptures say about it, without taking any bias to the Scriptures.

I would say the same to you.


About Romans 3:26, Paul is speaking of the past.

Only partly. Much of what he writes deals with the present and the future.


Notice in verse 25, God has made Him (Jesus) a propitiation for sins that are past. The sins of the OT.

There is nothing in that verse that says that. It is clear that Paul is speaking in absolute terms of the human condition, past, present and future. God's dealings with past sins don't get a mention until the end of the verse. What he is saying is that God was only able topass over former sins because they would be propitiated in the cross - lest anyone accuse Him of being unrighteous in passing them over.


So how is God just and the justifier? Jesus said no one can come to the Father but by me. So then how were the OT saints saved? They never had a chance to come to Christ.

Not at all - Jesus said that "Abraham saw my day - and was glad" and we read in Heb 11:26 that Moses "considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt". I believe many of the OT saints knew far more of Christ as they understood the Messianic prophecies than we give them credit. Look at Simeon and Anna. But in any event, the fact of the matter is that OT saints were justifed by faith in the SAviour who was to come - we are justified by faith in the Saviour who HAS come. Do you disagree with this?


God made Jesus a propitiation for their sins (sins that are past).

So what about our sins? Don't they need to be propitiated too?


So God is just because, He made faith in Christ a requirement of salvation and the OT saints never had a chance to have faith,

Nonsense - many had faith - look at Heb 11 - this was all that God required of them - from Abel onwards - it was faith based on the blood sacrifice - that's the way it's always been and the way it always will be.


God making Jesus a propitiation for their sins

But what about ours?


gives everyone the opportunity for salvation and no one can say they didn't have a chance. No one is left out, therefore making God just.

I have to disagree with your interpretation completely. God always had a remnant in the OT - the requirement was to believe God, and it would be credited to you for righteousness.

You seem to be confusing "just" with "fair" - when Christ comes to pour out the warth of God on those who will not rpeent, will that be just? Of course. Will it be FAIR? Well, how do you define "fair"? According to your definition of justice as: "no one is left out", I don't think so. You are thinking in human terms only.


God is the justifier because He is the one who made the way and the one who counts us righteous.


I agree - but the way is through Christ's death as an atonement for sins:-

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh Heb 10:19-20 NKJV

You just cannot get away from the fact that entering into God's presence is by the blood of Jesus = His propitiatory death; by His flesh = His sacrifice - NOT by His perfect life alone, although that was of course essential for Him to be the perfect "lamb without spot ot blemish" - and to clothe us His righteousness. BOTH were needed - perfect life and propitiatory death.

Steps
Sep 26th 2008, 10:47 AM
...and your point is....

That it is a struggle that you will never win till you die?
You will struggle against fornication all your life?
You will struggle against lying, etc till you die?
That if you walk by the spirit you will still live according to the will and desires of your flesh?
That if you walk in the Love of God that is spread abroad in our heart you will still walk in sin, any sin?

Is that your point, Mark?

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2008, 11:07 AM
...and your point is....

That it is a struggle that you will never win till you die?

In terms of total victory? Correct - why do you think we await the redemption of our bodies in Rom 8? Because we will not escape the "bondage to decay" (in bodily form at any rate) COMPLETELY until then (I accept that our souls/spirits are glorified at death).


You will struggle against fornication all your life?

Sinful thoughts anyway - quite possibly - but with increasing victory! :pp


You will struggle against lying, etc till you die?

With the temptation to - at times, almost certainly.


That if you walk by the spirit you will still live according to the will and desires of your flesh?

No - but in order to walk in the Spirit, I will have to put to death the will and desires of the flesh - it's an ongoing battle that sometimes rages with intensity - and other times doesn't. Just like any long, drawn out war.


That if you walk in the Love of God that is spread abroad in our heart you will still walk in sin, any sin?

No. But sinless perfection is unattainable this side of eternity.


Is that your point, Mark?

It's Nigel, actually - my Forum name is from this site

www.9marks.org (http://www.9marks.org)

Steps
Sep 26th 2008, 12:03 PM
Alright, Nigel. I hear ya. Whats the idea about spiritual growth as christians?

Or more personally, have you experienced lengths of time when you didn't bother with sin (in thoughts or deeds) but you just lived the life you would consider the godly life; you were in tune with the Holy Spirit. Your spirit man is just in total control of your thought process, which of course meant you acted right. You woke up with God as the 1st thing on ur mind. You have no care in the world. There is just this quiet assurance that you are well cared for...and you are. I can't describe it Nigel. But I live it... Day after day. Why would I be tempted to lie. Fear and selfishness are at the root of all sin. You are tempted to lie when you do a wrong

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2008, 12:28 PM
Alright, Nigel. I hear ya. Whats the idea about spiritual growth as christians?

I totally agree we MUST grow - all I'm saying is that there's always a struggle and that we're never totally "there" this side of eternity.


Or more personally, have you experienced lengths of time when you didn't bother with sin (in thoughts or deeds) but you just lived the life you would consider the godly life; you were in tune with the Holy Spirit. Your spirit man is just in total control of your thought process, which of course meant you acted right. You woke up with God as the 1st thing on ur mind. You have no care in the world. There is just this quiet assurance that you are well cared for...and you are.

Yes, I have - but not as much as I would have liked to - I've always thought of it as a time of personal revival - times of refreshing - but it's never been the norm...... :cry:


I can't describe it Nigel. But I live it... Day after day. Why would I be tempted to lie. Fear and selfishness are at the root of all sin. You are tempted to lie when you do a wrong

I'm happy for you, bro' - what's your "secret"?

Butch5
Sep 26th 2008, 06:57 PM
If He does not require punishment for it, He IS condoning it.

I think you're missing my point. The verse in Proverbs speaks of condoning (justifying) the sins of the wicked, this is what God hates. God justifying us speaks of God forgiving our sins not condoning them. As Christians, God commands us to leave our sins.



How do you define justice?

I'm just asking for Scriptural support for your claim.



God's. When Christ comes to pur out the warth of God on those who have rejected Him, will that be just? If He forgave everyone, would that be just?

Please show me God's definition of just.


If you can't see from the end of the parable that money is clearly being equated with trespasses, there's nothing more I can say.


Jesus is clearly using money to show the principle of forgiveness, that principle also applies to trespasses, whether against men or God. However I don't see how this passage teaches that trespasses are debt.


Where does Jesus say that? In fact He says elsewhere "render unto God that which is God's" - now, does that include obedience?

We're not talking about other verses, we are talking about this passage. I don't doubt that Jesus demands obedience, but that is not what this passage it talking about.

Matthew 18:24 ( KJV ) 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.


Why? Someone always has to pay - when some in business is not paid, and the business still has bills to pay, how are they paid?

This is irrelevant, we are not talking about businesses, we are talking about God forgiving sins




The work of atoning for our sin that Christ said He came to do had been finished - the pouring out of God's wrath on Christ was finished.

He hadn't died yet when He said it is finished



Only partly. Much of what he writes deals with the present and the future.

Yes it does, however here He is dealing with past sins.



There is nothing in that verse that says that. It is clear that Paul is speaking in absolute terms of the human condition, past, present and future. God's dealings with past sins don't get a mention until the end of the verse. What he is saying is that God was only able topass over former sins because they would be propitiated in the cross - lest anyone accuse Him of being unrighteous in passing them over.

Isn't that what I said?



Not at all - Jesus said that "Abraham saw my day - and was glad" and we read in Heb 11:26 that Moses "considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt". I believe many of the OT saints knew far more of Christ as they understood the Messianic prophecies than we give them credit. Look at Simeon and Anna. But in any event, the fact of the matter is that OT saints were justifed by faith in the SAviour who was to come - we are justified by faith in the Saviour who HAS come. Do you disagree with this?

I agree with it. but how did they hear the gospel?


So what about our sins? Don't they need to be propitiated too?


Yes , they do.


Nonsense - many had faith - look at Heb 11 - this was all that God required of them - from Abel onwards - it was faith based on the blood sacrifice - that's the way it's always been and the way it always will be.


Faith in God?


But what about ours?

What about ours? He is for ours also.



I have to disagree with your interpretation completely. God always had a remnant in the OT - the requirement was to believe God, and it would be credited to you for righteousness.

You seem to be confusing "just" with "fair" - when Christ comes to pour out the warth of God on those who will not rpeent, will that be just? Of course. Will it be FAIR? Well, how do you define "fair"? According to your definition of justice as: "no one is left out", I don't think so. You are thinking in human terms only.


Yes to believe God. What about faith in Christ?

It is not about being fair. If there are any the do not have a chance, someone will invariably ask, as Paul makes note, is God unjust? It is not about fairness, it is so that no one can claim that God is unjust.

There is also another way to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:25-26. That is, the sins that are past can refer to individuals, which probably fits the context better. Christ is a propitiation for sins, and God in His righteousness has applied that blood to past sins of the individual, those sins prior to one becoming a Christian.


I agree - but the way is through Christ's death as an atonement for sins:-

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh Heb 10:19-20 NKJV

You just cannot get away from the fact that entering into God's presence is by the blood of Jesus = His propitiatory death; by His flesh = His sacrifice - NOT by His perfect life alone, although that was of course essential for Him to be the perfect "lamb without spot ot blemish" - and to clothe us His righteousness. BOTH were needed - perfect life and propitiatory death.

I don't disagree with this statement, just your interpretation of it. We most definitely cannot enter into God's presence with out the shed blood of Christ. The question is what did that blood accomplish? Was it a payment to God? Scripture please. Or was it to redeem mankind.

Colossians 1:13-14 ( KJV ) 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV ) 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:6 ( KJV ) 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Galatians 1:4 ( KJV ) 4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Hebrews 2:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I never said we could enter into God's presence through Christ's perfect life alone. I asked the question, how was the law fulfilled? Was it by Christ's death or by His living out the law perfectly?

9Marksfan
Sep 27th 2008, 11:54 PM
I think you're missing my point. The verse in Proverbs speaks of condoning (justifying) the sins of the wicked, this is what God hates. God justifying us speaks of God forgiving our sins not condoning them. As Christians, God commands us to leave our sins.

And you are missing my point. God CANNOT overlook sin and just "forgive" it without a penalty being paid - without the shedding of blood.


I'm just asking for Scriptural support for your claim.

Sorry, too late and too tired - have a sermon to prepare for tomorrow night so it will be Monday at the earliest before I get back to you.


Please show me God's definition of just.

I'll ask you a question first (which you are avoiding so far) - when God condemns people to hell as guilty sinners, is He displaying His justice, yes or no?


Jesus is clearly using money to show the principle of forgiveness, that principle also applies to trespasses, whether against men or God. However I don't see how this passage teaches that trespasses are debt.

I think I may have worded things poorly - what I meant was that Jesus is clearly equating crippling financial debt with trespasses - the trepsasses between ourselves are trivial and can easily be forgiven - but in God's sight we are spiritually bankrupt - how is that debt to be dealt with by God? It cannot be ignored or overlooked - it is there.


We're not talking about other verses, we are talking about this passage.

Don't you believe in the principle that Scripture should interpret Scripture? Actualy, taking you up on your point - the passage ISN'T just about forgiveness - it's about the debt of sin being remitted.


I don't doubt that Jesus demands obedience, but that is not what this passage it talking about.

Agreed - but what do you think the ten thousand talents is meant to signify, spiritually?


Matthew 18:24 ( KJV ) 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.



This is irrelevant, we are not talking about businesses, we are talking about God forgiving sins

It's entirely relevant, as it deals with how bad debts are dealt with - that's what the parable has as its basis - a monumentally bad debt owed to the king. I had my own business a while ago and I had quite a few clients who didn't pay - let me tell you - SOMEONE had to pay their account, because clients' bills pay the business's bills - and more than one person suffered a penalty as a result......


He hadn't died yet when He said it is finished

Peter tells us that He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree - that was what was happening as He was being crucified there - that was why He cried "My God, My God, whya have You forsaken Me?" - the work of atonement did not begin when Jesus died - in fact, it ended there - notice that He cried "It is finished" just before he died.


Yes it does, however here He is dealing with past sins.

I hate to say it, but you are imposing your own view on the text (eisegesis) - it is clear that what Paul is talking about (and you have conceded this yourself) is the sins committed IN THE PAST - in other words, the sins of OT saints who have died.


Isn't that what I said?

I suspect you meant something different by it.


I agree with it. but how did they hear the gospel?

They heard enough to be justified by faith - after all, the Messiah was first prophesied to Adam and Eve - like I said, I believe that the OT saints knew more about Christ and the gospel than we give them credit for...


Yes , they do.

Sorry - my responses aren't included in what I'm typing and I can't recall the point - will try to deal with it in the next post.


Faith in God?


What about ours? He is for ours also.

Yes, but for how many of them? Those we commit before our conversion or ALL our sins - past, present and future? If not, how are the "future" (post-conversion) ones propitiated?


Yes to believe God. What about faith in Christ?

How do you know that they didn't believe in the Messiah that was to come?


It is not about being fair. If there are any the do not have a chance, someone will invariably ask, as Paul makes note, is God unjust? It is not about fairness, it is so that no one can claim that God is unjust.

What verse are you referring to?


There is also another way to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:25-26. That is, the sins that are past can refer to individuals, which probably fits the context better.

The sins in the lives of OT saints? Yes.


Christ is a propitiation for sins, and God in His righteousness has applied that blood to past sins of the individual, those sins prior to one becoming a Christian.

If that is the case, then - in the WRONG sense - the atonement is limited (ie inadequate/insufficient) - and all of us are without hope, because Christ did not atone for post-conversion sins. Can you please quote me a verse that says unequivocally that Christ did not atone for our future sins - and also one that says how these will be atoned for. Or one that says that they don't need to be atoned for.


You just cannot get away from the fact that entering into God's presence is by the blood of Jesus = His propitiatory death; by His flesh = His sacrifice - NOT by His perfect life alone, although that was of course essential for Him to be the perfect "lamb without spot ot blemish" - and to clothe us His righteousness. BOTH were needed - perfect life and propitiatory death.

I don't disagree with this statement, just your interpretation of it. We most definitely cannot enter into God's presence with out the shed blood of Christ. The question is what did that blood accomplish? Was it a payment to God? Scripture please. Or was it to redeem mankind.

Both. As for Scripture, to whom was Christ's offering made? And does redemption not involve the payment of a price to free the slave?


Colossians 1:13-14 ( KJV ) 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV ) 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:6 ( KJV ) 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Galatians 1:4 ( KJV ) 4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Hebrews 2:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I agree with all of these verses in what Christ's death accomplished - but I would go much further.


I never said we could enter into God's presence through Christ's perfect life alone. I asked the question, how was the law fulfilled? Was it by Christ's death or by His living out the law perfectly?


Both. Do you agree?

Steps
Sep 28th 2008, 05:56 AM
...they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Lovely place you have at www.9marks.org, Nigel. Outstanding.

Oh by the way, am Duke

9Marksfan
Sep 28th 2008, 02:50 PM
...they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Lovely place you have at www.9marks.org (http://www.9marks.org), Nigel. Outstanding.

Oh by the way, am Duke

Thanks, Duke - glad you like it - but it's not MY site - I'm just a "9Marksfan"! ;)

Love the verse, too - where is it again? Am going to PRAY its application to myself and see what happens! :)

Steps
Sep 29th 2008, 02:17 PM
Oops! My bad.

Rom 5:17

taddy
Sep 29th 2008, 09:20 PM
~When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost~

John 19:30


Paid in full!!!!

teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The word "finished" in the above verse means the above.

Everything we need to procure our salvation was purchased for us by Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His precious blood. All of our sins - past, present and future have been forgiven because of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. The debt owed to God, because of our rebellion against Him, has been paid for every single person that has ever lived!



Everything we need for life and living is found at the cross. As Christians, we need to always take up our cross (LUKE9:23) by keeping our faith what Christ acccomplished by the finished work at the cross. Taking up ther cross means to always keep your faith in the finished work.

Taddy

Teke
Sep 30th 2008, 01:11 AM
In discussions on this board I have heard several people speak of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. What exactly do you understand this to be?

Hi there Butch. :)

I breezed through the posts in this thread. I agree with much of what you've said. I'm posting to hopefully add some clarity.

There is a lot of juridical language in the English translations of scripture. And there is a lot of rhetoric in scripture (same things said different ways). It can be confusing as this thread has shown.

Here is a run down of how I see it.
Adam sinned and brought death into the world. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we all will suffer the consequences. No way around it, even Jesus who is God didn't overturn that ruling/command. That state of being seemed like a good thing to God because He could use it to our advantage and His good purpose for us. God has a record in scripture of turning curses into blessings.

The reason He created us was because of love. We show Him love in our actions, one of which includes our worship (which is love also, in the adoration sense). So you could say that we are created to show love in action.

Now to really understand what Christ did and what it meant is to see Him as God and High Priest. And to understand where we stand in relation to that.

The Resurrection alone doesn't give us all the details we need to understand.
Beginning with the Incarnation, which establishes His standing as fully human, does. He assumed our full humanity for a purpose. That purpose was to be the first human capable of offering the perfect sacrifice (like virgin love undefiled) from humanity to God. Mankind became so sinful after the curse of death came upon him, that he could not do it. Death made sin increase because man still thought like Adam did in thinking (the psychological effect) he could in some manner by his own hand escape death. Man couldn't and still can't.
I believe the understanding of "a debt" or "ransom" comes from this spiritual truth, though that is not what I would call it. I describe it more like the cycle of love being broken and then restored. The full story of Christ from Incarnation to Resurrection.

Examples of animal sacrifice couldn't be compared to that of Christ, except in light of the innocent suffering for the guilty, not as transference of sin from one to another. We are guilty in that we are sinners. We are not guilty of Adam's sin but only our own. What should be recognized is the priest who is the offerer. And the principle truth, that God always provides His own sacrifice for us to offer Him. Jesus Christ is both Priest (offerer) and sacrifice (the offering God provides) which by the use of lamb language is a peace offering.

Basically the understanding is related in the Greek "one-another" words. ie. bear one anothers burdens etc. Not in penal substitution or transference of sin.
A good expression is that of St. Gregory the Theologian, "what is not assumed is not healed", and "what is united to God is saved". This is redemption.

Butch5
Sep 30th 2008, 03:08 AM
Hi there Butch. :)

I breezed through the posts in this thread. I agree with much of what you've said. I'm posting to hopefully add some clarity.

There is a lot of juridical language in the English translations of scripture. And there is a lot of rhetoric in scripture (same things said different ways). It can be confusing as this thread has shown.

Here is a run down of how I see it.
Adam sinned and brought death into the world. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we all will suffer the consequences. No way around it, even Jesus who is God didn't overturn that ruling/command. That state of being seemed like a good thing to God because He could use it to our advantage and His good purpose for us. God has a record in scripture of turning curses into blessings.

The reason He created us was because of love. We show Him love in our actions, one of which includes our worship (which is love also, in the adoration sense). So you could say that we are created to show love in action.

Now to really understand what Christ did and what it meant is to see Him as God and High Priest. And to understand where we stand in relation to that.

The Resurrection alone doesn't give us all the details we need to understand.
Beginning with the Incarnation, which establishes His standing as fully human, does. He assumed our full humanity for a purpose. That purpose was to be the first human capable of offering the perfect sacrifice (like virgin love undefiled) from humanity to God. Mankind became so sinful after the curse of death came upon him, that he could not do it. Death made sin increase because man still thought like Adam did in thinking (the psychological effect) he could in some manner by his own hand escape death. Man couldn't and still can't.
I believe the understanding of "a debt" or "ransom" comes from this spiritual truth, though that is not what I would call it. I describe it more like the cycle of love being broken and then restored. The full story of Christ from Incarnation to Resurrection.

Examples of animal sacrifice couldn't be compared to that of Christ, except in light of the innocent suffering for the guilty, not as transference of sin from one to another. We are guilty in that we are sinners. We are not guilty of Adam's sin but only our own. What should be recognized is the priest who is the offerer. And the principle truth, that God always provides His own sacrifice for us to offer Him. Jesus Christ is both Priest (offerer) and sacrifice (the offering God provides) which by the use of lamb language is a peace offering.

Basically the understanding is related in the Greek "one-another" words. ie. bear one anothers burdens etc. Not in penal substitution or transference of sin.
A good expression is that of St. Gregory the Theologian, "what is not assumed is not healed", and "what is united to God is saved". This is redemption.

Hi Teke,

I think you are sying pretty much the same thing in a different way.

9Marksfan
Sep 30th 2008, 08:59 AM
Everything we need for life and living is found at the cross. As Christians, we need to always take up our cross (LUKE9:23) by keeping our faith what Christ acccomplished by the finished work at the cross. Taking up ther cross means to always keep your faith in the finished work.

Taddy

Great point - but don't you think it also means dying to self and living the self-denying life that Jesus so often commanded - "He must increase, I must decrease"?

Teke
Sep 30th 2008, 06:35 PM
Hi Teke,

I think you are sying pretty much the same thing in a different way.

Glad we agree. :)

Our part in God's plan is to show our obedience to His will for us when He reveals the Son to us. At that time we are baptized and our sins are washed away without any repentance, but instead we make a vow to be faithful to God from that point on. And Jesus reconciles us to God in peace. When we sin, as we will do whether voluntary or involuntary, we confess to one another and He forgives us our sins thereby keeping that peace in place with Him as we love "one another".

This is an example of the true gospel which has been given to us.

The following quote is an example of another gospel about a "sin debt".

I don't believe saints in this dispensation have to be water baptized. That's why Paul said "Christ sent me not to baptize." The mystery program was revealed to him. The mystery that had been kept secret was the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Those saints in Acts did have to be baptized for remission of sins. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit once we are saved.

If the atonement was conditional, that would suggest that we have to do something to go to heaven besides simply believing. Confession is not necessary and neither is asking for forgiveness. Paul knew we would try to continue to work our way into heaven in some form of fashion, that's why he wrote "Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

You can't have it both ways. Either you want to work your way into Heaven (which you can't) or you accept Christ's payment for your sin debt.

If someone on their death bed committed a sin and forgot to ask for forgiveness or forgot to confess but had previously accepted Christ's death as payment for sin debt, that person wouldn't go to Hell. Why? Because Jesus "paid it all!!" We didn't have to do it.

Butch5
Sep 30th 2008, 07:33 PM
Glad we agree. :)

Our part in God's plan is to show our obedience to His will for us when He reveals the Son to us. At that time we are baptized and our sins are washed away without any repentance, but instead we make a vow to be faithful to God from that point on. And Jesus reconciles us to God in peace. When we sin, as we will do whether voluntary or involuntary, we confess to one another and He forgives us our sins thereby keeping that peace in place with Him as we love "one another".

This is an example of the true gospel which has been given to us.

The following quote is an example of another gospel about a "sin debt".


Two things,

1. What do you mean without repentance?

2. In the example of sin debt.

many people say this but they just ignore the Scriptures that show this cannot be. For example the quote from Romans 11:6, the works being spoken of are works of the law, not works of obedience. Just look at the context, go back to chapter 10, it is clear that Paul is contrasting the Jews who were trying to be righteous by the law with those of faith. But people don' read this, they just grab a verse and say see this is what it means. If Paul said anywhere that works of obedience aren't necessary then He would have contradicted Himself, because in Romans 2 He says that those who do good are seeking eternal life and those who do evil are going to receive indignation and wrath. But again they don't want to see this.

Confession and asking forgiveness aren't necessary? Even though the apostles said the are. Another example is, the quote says baptism isn't necessary because Paul said Christ didn't send Him to baptize. Jesus didn't baptize either but He told His disciples to. So Paul wasn't sent to baptize, that doesn't mean baptism isn't necessary, it just means that Paul wasn't sent to baptize.

Teke
Sep 30th 2008, 08:50 PM
Two things,

1. What do you mean without repentance?

Gifts and the calling of God (the Father revealing the Son to someone) are without repentance. Meaning even those who do not know Christ are given these. I've been told I'm confused about those who are not Christians having gifts from God without Christ, but it's true.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
We would surely all attest that when God revealed the Son to us we were not penitent. I know I wasn't.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. this means all mankind, so no excuses such as God showing partiality ie. there is not division in God, Trinity theology
Gifts appease enmity, even Abraham did as much with his six sons of the concubines and sent them away from Isaac- OT example of this


2. In the example of sin debt.

There is no sin debt. God judged sin with Adam, the judgment was death. No appeals.



many people say this but they just ignore the Scriptures that show this cannot be. For example the quote from Romans 11:6, the works being spoken of are works of the law, not works of obedience. Just look at the context, go back to chapter 10, it is clear that Paul is contrasting the Jews who were trying to be righteous by the law with those of faith. But people don' read this, they just grab a verse and say see this is what it means. If Paul said anywhere that works of obedience aren't necessary then He would have contradicted Himself, because in Romans 2 He says that those who do good are seeking eternal life and those who do evil are going to receive indignation and wrath. But again they don't want to see this.

I see and agree with you. :)


Confession and asking forgiveness aren't necessary? Even though the apostles said the are. Another example is, the quote says baptism isn't necessary because Paul said Christ didn't send Him to baptize. Jesus didn't baptize either but He told His disciples to. So Paul wasn't sent to baptize, that doesn't mean baptism isn't necessary, it just means that Paul wasn't sent to baptize.

Baptism is necessary to place a person into the Body of Christ. It is death to our self and resurrection into the corporal Body of Christ/Church. A Body which is pure and undefiled by sin. As His Church Body we are to stay that way ie. virgin bride
After baptism we are going to sin whether voluntary or involuntarily, so confession and repentance are necessary to "keep" you clean.

Butch5
Oct 1st 2008, 12:28 AM
Gifts and the calling of God (the Father revealing the Son to someone) are without repentance. Meaning even those who do not know Christ are given these. I've been told I'm confused about those who are not Christians having gifts from God without Christ, but it's true.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
We would surely all attest that when God revealed the Son to us we were not penitent. I know I wasn't.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. this means all mankind, so no excuses such as God showing partiality ie. there is not division in God, Trinity theology
Gifts appease enmity, even Abraham did as much with his six sons of the concubines and sent them away from Isaac- OT example of this


There is no sin debt. God judged sin with Adam, the judgment was death. No appeals.



I see and agree with you. :)


Baptism is necessary to place a person into the Body of Christ. It is death to our self and resurrection into the corporal Body of Christ/Church. A Body which is pure and undefiled by sin. As His Church Body we are to stay that way ie. virgin bride
After baptism we are going to sin whether voluntary or involuntarily, so confession and repentance are necessary to "keep" you clean.

I have to disagree with you on the gifts. I believe Romans 11:29 is speaking of God. Without repentance, meaning that God doesn't change His mind,



G278


ἀμεταμέλητος


ametamelētos


Thayer Definition:


1) not repentant of, unregretted


Part of Speech: adjective


The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G278. ἀμεταμέλητος ametamelētos; gen. ametamelētou, masc.-fem., neut. ametamelēton, adj. from the priv. a (G1), without, and metamelomai (G3338), to change one’s mind. Without repentance. Used in regard to the gifts and calling of God unto salvation (Rom. 11:29). The translation of ametamelētos “without repentance” is very inadequate. It would have been better translated “without regret” (a.t.). What the apostle is saying here is that when God has given gifts to men and has extended His salvation to them, He never regrets the extension of His grace or changes His mind as having made a mistake because of the behavior of the ones that He saved and gifted. Salvation should never be considered as merely man’s decision to follow Christ, but also God’s acceptance of the genuineness of that decision and the birth and existence of faith.

The verse in Ephesians is speaking of gifts to believers.


Ephesians 4:6-12 ( KJV ) 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

He gave the gifts for the building up of the church

Teke
Oct 1st 2008, 01:55 AM
I have to disagree with you on the gifts. I believe Romans 11:29 is speaking of God. Without repentance, meaning that God doesn't change His mind,

OK, I'd agree with that. ie. irrevocable
But the subject is the obedient and disobedient. IOW ALL. He is speaking on how Israel has become like the Gentiles in disobedience now.




G278


ἀμεταμέλητος


ametamelētos


Thayer Definition:


1) not repentant of, unregretted


Part of Speech: adjective


The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G278. ἀμεταμέλητος ametamelētos; gen. ametamelētou, masc.-fem., neut. ametamelēton, adj. from the priv. a (G1), without, and metamelomai (G3338), to change one’s mind. Without repentance. Used in regard to the gifts and calling of God unto salvation (Rom. 11:29). The translation of ametamelētos “without repentance” is very inadequate. It would have been better translated “without regret” (a.t.). What the apostle is saying here is that when God has given gifts to men and has extended His salvation to them, He never regrets the extension of His grace or changes His mind as having made a mistake because of the behavior of the ones that He saved and gifted. Salvation should never be considered as merely man’s decision to follow Christ, but also God’s acceptance of the genuineness of that decision and the birth and existence of faith.

I know this, have the same book and it's pretty much useless for explaining the Greek.


The verse in Ephesians is speaking of gifts to believers.

Ephesians 4:6-12 ( KJV ) 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

He gave the gifts for the building up of the church

I understand if that's your view. I disagree with limited grace. I do believe that when one becomes a Christian their gift becomes part of the corporal Body of Christ as they have.

Butch5
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:19 AM
OK, I'd agree with that. ie. irrevocable
But the subject is the obedient and disobedient. IOW ALL. He is speaking on how Israel has become like the Gentiles in disobedience now.



I know this, have the same book and it's pretty much useless for explaining the Greek.


I understand if that's your view. I disagree with limited grace. I do believe that when one becomes a Christian their gift becomes part of the corporal Body of Christ as they have.

The Ephesians verses speak of the gifts being given for he purpose of edifying the body. I don't see why Christ would give gifts to deify the body to people who are not in the body.

What do you mean by limited grace

Teke
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:26 AM
The Ephesians verses speak of the gifts being given for he purpose of edifying the body. I don't see why Christ would give gifts to deify the body to people who are not in the body.

The gifts aren't going to edify the body if the person isn't using them for such a purpose. Paul is an example.


What do you mean by limited grace

Grace is an energy of God. God isn't limited.

Do you think God withholds grace or mercy from some and not others?

9Marksfan
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:22 AM
Hey guys

:OFFT:

Teke
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:37 PM
Hey guys

:OFFT:

Hi Mark,
I hope I wasn't going off topic. IMHO Christ's work represents the salvation by grace extended to all mankind. All have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.

Grace and peace to all. :hug:

Pro 19:6 Many will intreat the favour of the prince: and every man [is] a friend to him that giveth gifts.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Butch5
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:42 AM
Hey guys

:OFFT:

Hey Mark,

I did respond to you last post but it got pulled.

9Marksfan
Oct 3rd 2008, 09:18 AM
Hi Mark,
I hope I wasn't going off topic. IMHO Christ's work represents the salvation by grace extended to all mankind. All have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.

Grace and peace to all. :hug:

OK - fair point. What exactly do you consider to be "Christ's work" and "salvation by grace"?


Pro 19:6 Many will intreat the favour of the prince: and every man [is] a friend to him that giveth gifts.

I think you're "reaching" by trying to equate this with salvation - do you believe that "every man" [ie human] will be saved, ultimately?


Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

What's your connection between this verse and Christ's work/salvation by grace?

9Marksfan
Oct 3rd 2008, 09:19 AM
Hey Mark,

I did respond to you last post but it got pulled.

OK - it's Nigel, actually - Forum name comes from this site:-

www.9marks.org (http://www.9marks.org)

If you want to PM me on the point, feel free.

Nigel

Teke
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:00 PM
OK - fair point. What exactly do you consider to be "Christ's work" and "salvation by grace"?

Universally He has graciously (by grace) made a peace offering (salvation) on behalf of mankind (Christ's work). Individually it is to be freely accepted.


I think you're "reaching" by trying to equate this with salvation - do you believe that "every man" [ie human] will be saved, ultimately?

Couldn't say. Would just say they've been offered the free gift.


What's your connection between this verse and Christ's work/salvation by grace?

The "work" will literally be seen. The verse in connection with those before it, is an analogy in reference to an ancient game played. The game divided companions into two groups. Those pretending to play musical instruments or singing and those responding appropriately by dancing or mourning. In the case of John the Baptist and Jesus, their contemporaries, in this case especially the Jewish leaders , refuse to respond to either one. Instead they make accusations to discredit and disregard them.

IOW it depicts human response. Thereby, "wisdom (meaning that which is of God, in this case John's evangelism and Jesus the Messiah) is justified by her children"/works.

taddy
Oct 6th 2008, 08:54 PM
LUKE9:23

Step 1: DENY YOURSELF- This simply means to deny that there is any thing yoou can do to save yourself. It is not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9) but it is by faith. We are saved simply by asking Christ to save us (Romans 10:9,10,13).

Step 2: TAKE UP THE CROSS- This is just simply putting your faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is not just for salvation.
It is for everything we will ever need for life and living. 1 Corinthians 1:17, 18, 1 Corinthians 2:2

Step 3: FOLLOW JESUS- Live by every word of the Lord. Matthew 4:4

TaDDY

Butch5
Oct 7th 2008, 01:02 AM
LUKE9:23

Step 1: DENY YOURSELF- This simply means to deny that there is any thing yoou can do to save yourself. It is not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9) but it is by faith. We are saved simply by asking Christ to save us (Romans 10:9,10,13).

Step 2: TAKE UP THE CROSS- This is just simply putting your faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is not just for salvation.
It is for everything we will ever need for life and living. 1 Corinthians 1:17, 18, 1 Corinthians 2:2

Step 3: FOLLOW JESUS- Live by every word of the Lord. Matthew 4:4

TaDDY

Taddy,

Sorry, but there are things you must do for salvation. You are correct you cannot save yourself, however that does not mean that you do nothing.

Taking up your cross is not simply placing your faith in Jesus. It is walk as Christ did.

taddy
Oct 9th 2008, 09:02 PM
There is absolutely nothing I can do for salvation. Christ did it all on the cross. If there is any earthly thing I could do to earn my own salvation, then the cross is vain. I am not saved because of what I do, rather I live the way I do, because I am saved.

Taking up the cross is putting my Faith in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. We follow Christ by walking as He walked. Therefore I stand by my last post.

Taddy

Butch5
Oct 17th 2008, 01:18 AM
There is absolutely nothing I can do for salvation. Christ did it all on the cross. If there is any earthly thing I could do to earn my own salvation, then the cross is vain. I am not saved because of what I do, rather I live the way I do, because I am saved.

Taking up the cross is putting my Faith in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. We follow Christ by walking as He walked. Therefore I stand by my last post.

Taddy

You may stand behind your last post, however can you show me from Scripture that there is nothing you can do for your salvation? according to the Scriptures there is plenty to do for salvation

taddy
Oct 21st 2008, 08:33 PM
(8) For By grace are ye saved, through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God.
(9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Dani H
Oct 26th 2008, 09:19 PM
Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

In what way is the new covenant better when the old covenant also provided for the forgiveness of sin?

I think to understand what Jesus actually made provision for, and how the new covenant through Him is better, we have to look at it from God's point of view, not ours.

Teke
Oct 26th 2008, 10:29 PM
Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

In what way is the new covenant better when the old covenant also provided for the forgiveness of sin?

I think to understand what Jesus actually made provision for, and how the new covenant through Him is better, we have to look at it from God's point of view, not ours.

Christos Anesti! (Gr)
Christos Voskrese! (Slv)
Al-Masih-Qam! (Arab)
Christos E Anviat! (Romanian)
Christ is risen! (English)
:)

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 03:14 AM
(8) For By grace are ye saved, through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God.
(9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Can you tell me what Paul meant when He said not of works?

taddy
Nov 11th 2008, 11:23 PM
EPHESIANS 2:8-9

(8) For By grace are ye saved, through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God.
(9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.


Basically it means that Christ did it all on the cross. All we have to do is ask in faith. ROMANS 10:9-10, 13. After we are saved we live the life the Bible says to live. We are NOT saved because of what we do. We do what we are saved.


Taddy

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 03:19 AM
(8) For By grace are ye saved, through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God.
(9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Those works are works of the law, read the rest of the chapter. Paul goes on to tell how Christ broke down the wall of partition, the law.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 03:24 AM
EPHESIANS 2:8-9

(8) For By grace are ye saved, through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God.
(9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.


Basically it means that Christ did it all on the cross. All we have to do is ask in faith. ROMANS 10:9-10, 13. After we are saved we live the life the Bible says to live. We are NOT saved because of what we do. We do what we are saved.


Taddy


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those who do the good works go into heaven, those who don't go into everlasting punishment.


Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul says God will judge every man according to his deeds. He says the ones who are doing good deeds are seeking immortality, eternal life. Then He says the ones who do evil, receive indignation and wrath.