PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Post-trib 'rapture'



redskittle
Sep 13th 2008, 02:28 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.

ServantoftheKing
Sep 13th 2008, 02:58 PM
Cross reference the verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. In that passage you see the elect (both the dead in Christ and those who are still alive) being gathered to meet the Lord in the clouds at the sounding of a trumpet.

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and the elect being gathered at the sounding of a trumpet.

I believe it's the same event being described, and as you mentioned already, Matthew 24:29 says this happens after the tribulation.

ServantoftheKing

IPet2_9
Sep 13th 2008, 03:02 PM
Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

Yup. :saint:

Those people who are pre-trib and have their own understanding of this verse, I can respect that. But like you said, I wonder how many "mainstream" pre-tribs have really dug into the Bible like that; or if they just go along with their church on this.

carboy
Sep 13th 2008, 03:06 PM
Yes, many have noticed. I like the absence of trumpet and bowl judgements in Matt. 24. Gods protection over the saints during this, like His protection of the Jews in Egypt, or the taking out of the saints before certain events, a "sometime during" approach to the rapture. "After the tribulation of THOSE days" with more days to follow. Anyway the more I read the less I sit with a pre-trib mind.

vinsight4u8
Sep 13th 2008, 03:12 PM
Let the sun darkened part of Matthew that comes after the tribulation be the time of the sun becomes black in the 6th seal.

4th seal - man of sin
5th seal - great tribulation
all rest till all come in killed that are to be slain as martyrs
6th seal - end of tribulation sign
sun black

heaven departs
- see Job 14:12,14

wicked men hide in the rocks
-see Isaiah 2:10-21
the day of the LORD starts

The church will be raptured in the 6th seal.

Then look at the 7th seal time of silence.
-see Isaiah 18:3-5
- Isaiah 62:1-4
-Isaiah 65:6
-Psalm 50

Jerusalem must be freed and can never be made desolate again once God keeps silence, takes His rest.

Let Rev. 7 be a give more info to us chapter.
a chapter - to go into greater depth as to the most important section of the seals
seals 4-6

Just before the 4th seal rider begins his ride - the 144,000 of Israel will be sealed for protection - protected to survive the trib time and clear past Armageddon to restart Israel back in her land.

The trumpets do not sound in Rev. 8 - for there is only the trumpet story.
The angels that were once seen with trumpets.

IPet2_9
Sep 13th 2008, 03:17 PM
Jerusalem must be freed and can never be made desolate again once God keeps silence, takes His rest.My belief is that Jerusalem gets freed by a 10-megaton nuclear missile. Not until New Jerusalem comes is it never made desolate again.

MyGod
Sep 13th 2008, 05:06 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.

The way I understand scripture, the tribulation starts immediately after we are caught up. No one knows how long the tribulation will last. The great tribulation lasts 7 years. When the scripture talks about "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give light. . . " this happens after the 6th seal is opened in Rev 6:12. The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

BroRog
Sep 13th 2008, 07:01 PM
Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

Richard H
Sep 13th 2008, 07:21 PM
Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

When was that?

Have I gotten left behind again? :o


Actually - not to this point - but to pre-tribbers:
Those who are alive and remain will NOT preceed the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:13-18)
Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

yoSAMite
Sep 13th 2008, 07:24 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.
I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

Richard H
Sep 13th 2008, 07:28 PM
Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

The FIRST resurrection - that is. :blush:

BroRog
Sep 13th 2008, 07:53 PM
I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

I understand your position. It's hard to get past the fact, though, that Jesus' description of his second coming sounds a lot like Paul's description of the rapture. I mean it appears to use the same imagery.

Have you given this much thought? What do you think about it?

BroRog
Sep 13th 2008, 08:03 PM
When was that?

Have I gotten left behind again? :o


Actually - not to this point - but to pre-tribbers:
Those who are alive and remain will NOT preceed the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:13-18)
Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

Many Christians have been taught to associate the term "Great Tribulation" with the Trumpet and Vial judgments listed in the Book of Revelation. In my view, the GT is a different thing altogether. When I say the GT is over, I'm not also saying, at the same time, that the Vial judgments are over or that the rapture is about to take place.

Here is how I picture it. The GT is just another way to describe the exile of the Jews from Palestine. The term "great" differentiates this exile from the previous exile in Babylon. Now that the Jews are back in Palestine, living together as a nation again, the exile period is over.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 09:15 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.I'm with ya all the way. :thumbsup:

Just a Door Keeper
Sep 13th 2008, 11:59 PM
Notice in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 we are told that the gathering and the day of Christ, ie, His coming will not take place until there is a falling away, an apostacy, and the man of sin is revealed. The gathering can't take place first, it is after the antichrist is revealed. Continue reading in the chapter and you will read of the revealing of the antichrist.
Mat.24 and 1 Thess. 4 both tell of - The Lord Jesus coming in the clouds
- angels
- the sound of a trumpet
- the gathering of believers
It's the same event!

So how many times do you think the Lord Jesus will come in the clouds with a trumpet etc and gather believers?
When the Lord was asked when He would come back He gave a detailed answer which is in Mat. 24.
Also notice that Mat.24:31 (which is the same event as 1 Thess.) occurs after the abomination of desolatiion and the great tribulation, both which begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. There is no pre trib rapture, the rapture is after the antichrist is revealed, after the tribulation of those days.
Marvin Rosenthal wrote a good book on these things, it is worthwhile reading it. (comparing all with your Bible of course.) The book is called The Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Study the Day of the LORD, the Day of Christ, The Day of God and you will see that it begins with stars falling, sun turned to darkness etc. That happens AFTER the great trib, at least that's what the Lord Jesus says in Mat. 24.
The Day of the Lord is not the whole 7 years but only a small portion somewhere in the second half of the 7 years.
Read 2 Thess. 2:1-3 very carefully, note that we are warned, "let no man deceive you by any means for (that day shall not come) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

But whatever your take on it let's be sure not to let the old nature get us biting and devouring, but rather let grace rule.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 12:34 AM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.


The dead in Christ rise first.........happens AFTER the tribulation of those days wherein the sun is darkened. How can there be those alive being raptured before a great tribulation?

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 12:39 AM
Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

Well we have a problem here as well........

1. We all must physically die due to a sin nature.
2. Those without the mark of the beast are killed off prior.

There are no born again survivors remaining after the tribulation.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 12:55 AM
[QUOTE=MyGod;1786794]The way I understand scripture, the tribulation starts immediately after we are caught up.

Scripture does not state this. Though you seem to understand there will be no Christians on earth for the great tribulation is correct. How will they be removed? raptured living or by death? Death at the hands of the beast.

IPet2_9
Sep 14th 2008, 01:53 AM
Scripture does not state this. Though you seem to understand there will be no Christians on earth for the great tribulation is correct. How will they be removed? raptured living or by death? Death at the hands of the beast.

Scripture says some Christians make it to the end.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Gods Child
Sep 14th 2008, 05:05 AM
The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ.

The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

This same Greek word Eklektos is used in the following quoted scriptures.
Which shows that the elect in Matthew 24 is the Body of Christ (Church/Christians).


Lk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

1 Thess 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Also to say that Matthew 24 is written to Israel, it must be noted that Jesus was talking to his disciples. Who were the disciples? They were the 1st Church…1st Saved…1st Christians. Jesus was talking to the Church/Christians/Body of Christ.
Jew’s (Israel) do not even read the New Testament. So it is quite clear that Jesus was talking about the Body of Christ here in Matthew 24 when he said Elect.

Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

Yes, God has not appointed us to wrath, but the Great tribulation is NOT Gods wrath.
The Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath against God’s people.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We are never appointed to God’s wrath. God’s wrath is for the ungodly.

We are not told we would escape persecution.
Jn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The servant is NOT greater than his Lord.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 05:26 AM
Scripture says some Christians make it to the end.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.


Mark

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 05:30 AM
The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

Right on...... Now the "very elect" may perhaps be speaking of the church.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Not possible due to the holy spirit. They can not be decieved and are delivered up to death.

Mark

IPet2_9
Sep 14th 2008, 05:36 AM
Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 05:53 AM
The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

I agree. Both are elect and predestined. I am saying the church is VERY elect and Israel the elect in Matt 24. Israel specific to the 144,000.

Note there are a whole lot more scriptures which depict Israel as God's elect than the church.

Richard H
Sep 14th 2008, 11:42 AM
Don’t forget about the woman in the desert – the one clothed in the Sun with the Moon (Islam) under her feet.

God divorced the scattered tribes, “Israel” – the northern kingdom, but he did not divorce “Judah” (and Benjamin and ½ Levites) – the southern kingdom we now call “Jews”. (Jer 3)

I think Revelation 12 is the parenthetical story (not tale) of national Israel, Jews in the land of Israel.

The woman, Judah, was to give birth to the Christ – the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
Satan and 1/3 of the angels, the fallen angels, sought to destroy the child even from his birth. (Herod in Matthew 2)

The remnant of this Woman flees into the desert to be protected and provided for during 1260 days.
There are two instances of people fleeing Jerusalem during Daniel’s 70th week.

1. Referring to the “woman” -
Immediately after the Abomination. Messianic Jews would be aware of the warning to flee. (Matthew 24:15-25)
Some people think this is a place called Bozrah, “the sheep pen” an old city in Edom south-east of the Dead Sea. (Isaiah 34)
Not Bosera in southern Iraq.

2. Not referring to the “woman” -
The other instance is people fleeing the city when the Mount of Olives is split in two – even to Azel.(Zec 14:5)

To further identify the Woman, the child that she gave birth to will shepherd the nations with an iron staff – Messiah, Jesus.

The dragon could not do anything to the protected woman, so he made war with (persecuted) the rest of her seed – the grafted in.
Christ was born of the woman, Judah, and we are born of the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. (Romans 8:9)

The “rest of her seed” is identified as those keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Richard H
Sep 14th 2008, 01:22 PM
The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

Although, I’ve been aware of this for many years, I never really grasped the significance until this last year.

When one refers to ‘Israel” or “the Jews”, we’re not always talking about the same people.
Forgive me for harping: [as I’ve mentioned this on other threads – and this one (my previous post)]

“Israel” before the division of the kingdoms after Solomon, was simply Israel – the 12 tribes. (1 Kings11:26-39)

Then there was “Israel”, the northern kingdom, which was later scattered into the “10” lost tribes. (2 Kings 17:40)
Their identity was lost, so you or I could be part of Israel but not know it.

I had a DNA test done which was supposed to tell me if that was a possibility. The results “ruled it out”.
[Note: I was very disappointed with the results of this test – which really didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know about my immediate heritage. ‘Wasted money.]

However, the results DID include a geographic map of the genetic pathways. Even if I came from European stock, it still showed that Europeans had previously come right through the area we call Israel.

So it is indeed possible that I’m of the northern kingdom, Israel.
Am (was) I also gentile? Yes.
Am I a Messianic “Jew” (Judah)? No.

However, I am grafted into root of Jesse. (Rom 15:12)

And it shall be in that day, the Root of Jesse stands as a banner of peoples; nations shall seek to Him; and His resting place shall be glory.
And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Ethiopia, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coasts of the sea.
And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the four wings of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall turn off; and Judah's foes shall be cut off. Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not trouble Ephraim.
Isaiah 11:10-13

Bethany67
Sep 14th 2008, 02:47 PM
I had a DNA test done which was supposed to tell me if that was a possibility. The results “ruled it out”.
[Note: I was very disappointed with the results of this test – which really didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know about my immediate heritage. ‘Wasted money.]

However, the results DID include a geographic map of the genetic pathways. Even if I came from European stock, it still showed that Europeans had previously come right through the area we call Israel.

Would you mind expanding on this? Which company did it? I'm considering getting my mitochondrial DNA tested (can't do the Y-chromosome as I have no male relatives, although the male side of my family includes India, Scandinavia, the Middle East, Russia, Ethiopia, Arabia going back so would probably be more interesting). What route did they decide the inhabitants of Europe took? Very interested in the migration of peoples throughout history. A purely 'English' friend had some family results done - the mitochondrial DNA showed the eastern edge of the Black Sea (Russia/Georgia), and the K2 haplotype (now renamed haplogroup T) in a paternal uncle showed a link to the Middle East (Egypt or Iran).

Richard H
Sep 14th 2008, 03:27 PM
Re: DNA

Sent private message so as not to be off topic.

Gods Child
Sep 14th 2008, 03:38 PM
Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.

Yes, the tribes mourn, but that does not make them the elect that are written of within Matthew 24.
We can see this, because the same Greek word for elect is used in all instances within Matthew 24.

Note that God used the word tribes and the word Elect. To show the difference between the two.
If God meant that the elect in Mat 24:22 were the tribes, he would have used the Greek word for tribes and not the same Greek word of elect (same word of elect that is used in other scriptures that describe Christians).



The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The same Greek word for Elect is used in all three scriptures within Matthew 24.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (Greek word; 1588=eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Greek word; 1588=eklektos)

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (Greek word; 1588=eklektos) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

IPet2_9,

Yes, 1 Peter 1;1 & Romans 11:7: is the same Greek word Elect used in all of Matthew 24. Which shows us that the Elect of Matthew 24 are Christians.

BroRog
Sep 14th 2008, 05:12 PM
Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.


Mark

The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

Richard H
Sep 14th 2008, 05:56 PM
The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

Thanks, BroRog. I never noticed that before.


Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I agree. IMHO “Israel” here is all the the tribes – not just Judah – because it refers to Jacob.


Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Of course, Jesus came out of Judah.

Scripture never ceases to amaze me.

Richard

Gods Child
Sep 15th 2008, 03:13 AM
The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

I would have to disagree. What has always been God's reason to keep Christians on the earth? It is to preach the Gospel.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 24....
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Christians preach the gospel and they do so in the flesh. This is why Jesus said the days are shortened, because otherwise there would be no flesh saved...Elect (Christians).....
Flesh saved for what? ... To preach the gospel to the kingdom....Then shall the end come. That is the purpose of the Elect (Christians) in this chapter.
We don't have to leave it to "logic", because Jesus already told us.

yoSAMite
Sep 15th 2008, 03:19 AM
I understand your position. It's hard to get past the fact, though, that Jesus' description of his second coming sounds a lot like Paul's description of the rapture. I mean it appears to use the same imagery.

Have you given this much thought? What do you think about it?
I have looked at what you suggested and I still see two different events despite similarities. I think it is safe to say that no matter where you place the rapture (pre to post) that it is the translation of believers in a twinkling of an eye to glorified bodies. I see no translation in the second coming.

With the rapture you have the saints going to heaven, in the second coming they are coming from heaven to earth.

The pre-trib view also holds to the doctrine of imminency, which is the belief that the rapture can happen at any time with no event that must take place for it to happen. It seems the second coming is preciously timed and follows predicted signs.

Most also believe that the rapture occurs before the time of wrath while the second coming concludes the time of wrath.

BroRog
Sep 15th 2008, 04:42 AM
I have looked at what you suggested and I still see two different events despite similarities. I think it is safe to say that no matter where you place the rapture (pre to post) that it is the translation of believers in a twinkling of an eye to glorified bodies. I see no translation in the second coming.

With the rapture you have the saints going to heaven, in the second coming they are coming from heaven to earth.

The pre-trib view also holds to the doctrine of imminency, which is the belief that the rapture can happen at any time with no event that must take place for it to happen. It seems the second coming is preciously timed and follows predicted signs.

Most also believe that the rapture occurs before the time of wrath while the second coming concludes the time of wrath.

I totally understand. I really do. I was just wondering how you were putting things together. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

Joe King
Sep 15th 2008, 05:19 AM
No one can explain to me why we would be exempt from the tribulation when Jesus had to suffer. We will have our test and definitely tribulation. The rapture is wonderful and will happen but at best, during the middle of the tribulation. Who are the people that will be persecuted across the earth? It will be the Christians and Jews.

Pray for the strength, wisdom and protection to get through it!!!

David Taylor
Sep 15th 2008, 12:07 PM
Jesus said,
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." John 15:18

DeafPosttrib
Sep 15th 2008, 12:31 PM
khoolaid,

Many pretribs believe rapture is imminent without any signs, could come anytime quickly without any expect. They use Matt. 24:42,44; and Mark 13:32 that, these verses telling us, no one and angels know what day and hour when Christ comes, only God the Father knows.

Postribs do agree with Matt. 24:42,44, & Mark 13:32 that we do not know the specific date of His coming would be. What we can od is, always watch and ready all the times.

In common sense, Matt. 24:42,44; Mark 13:32 always focus on Second Advent, no question.

Pretribs claim that, the Early Church believed His coming is imminent. True. But, it doesn't mean that they all were pretribs. Because, the two split comings were unheard doctrine to them, and this doctrine was not yet exist till middle 19th Century. Early Christians believed there is the only one future coming of Christ. And of course, all Early Christians believed Second Advent is imminent. So far I am aware that there is no record in Early Fathers' books or commentary, did set the date of Second Advent. Neither, they claim that they do know when Christ shall come. They all were did watch and ready in their lifetime, they had no idea when Christ comes, they just get busy served the Lord in their life, they were always ready. These do not mean that it prove of pretrib rapture. The fact was, they believed one future coming, they were always be ready all the times, although all of them died in their faith. Still their faith were counted and got blessed.


I only know three major signs would be happening prior imminent coming of Christ: 1. Falling away 2. revealed of Satan 3. Cosmic disturbance according as what in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 and Matt. 24:29 saying.

Also, there is no promise from God that we shall escape from tribulation. In John 16:33, Christ told disciples, that they should have tribulations, but be cheer up, because He already victory over tribulations.

Many pretribs are aware that many Christians already suffered tribulations throughout history in the past.

Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period. Use our commone sense, 'wrath' is for unsaved people, and unfaithful servants who abide in their sins, God would be wrath upon them. What wrath will be the consequence for them to face? Send them to everlasting fire, that is speak of hell, then later cast into lake of fire.

Same as what John 3:36 is talking about.

So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine.

Bible, what it actual saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

Bible teaching us very clear there will be one future coming on the last day of this age/world, one resurrection day, one judgment day. There is no reason why should I believe in two split comings, because, no where in Bible say there will be two future comings as split. That doctrine caused churches in divisions since mid of 19th Century to now.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Richard H
Sep 15th 2008, 03:17 PM
<snip>

Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period. Use our commone sense, 'wrath' is for unsaved people, and unfaithful servants who abide in their sins, God would be wrath upon them. What wrath will be the consequence for them to face? Send them to everlasting fire, that is speak of hell, then later cast into lake of fire.

Same as what John 3:36 is talking about.

So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine.



Right.
The wrath to come refers to the seven bowls of wrath - toward the END of the tribulation. We are not destined to go through such.


As you say, the pre-trib idea started 170 yrs ago - with Darby.

DeafPosttrib
Sep 15th 2008, 03:26 PM
How long the seven bowls of Revelation chapter 16 last?

Look at Rev. 16:15 tells us, blessed that he watch shall not cah as thief. This is picture of rapture. Rapture shall come follow after 6th bowl occured, clearly, the saints are still there till 6th bowl, also, same as 6th trumpet blown of Rev. 11:15-18, tis passage is picture as gathering - rapture for the judgment day right after Euphrate River being dried up same with 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Even, do not forget 6th seal too!! 6th seal tells the same thing of Matt. 24:29 on cosmic disturbance.

So, therefore, pretribulationialism doctrine is weak to me, because it is not clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

vinsight4u8
Sep 15th 2008, 04:01 PM
I believe the bowls last for the extra 45 days mentioned in Daniel 12.

resurrection of the just (including Daniel) =1290th day
rapture -
All of the saints go home to heaven and wait there till time for the 6th vial Armageddon battle.

Richard H
Sep 15th 2008, 04:02 PM
How long the seven bowls of Revelation chapter 16 last?

Look at Rev. 16:15 tells us, blessed that he watch shall not cah as thief. This is picture of rapture. Rapture shall come follow after 6th bowl occured, clearly, the saints are still there till 6th bowl, also, same as 6th trumpet blown of Rev. 11:15-18, tis passage is picture as gathering - rapture for the judgment day right after Euphrate River being dried up same with 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Even, do not forget 6th seal too!! 6th seal tells the same thing of Matt. 24:29 on cosmic disturbance.

So, therefore, pretribulationialism doctrine is weak to me, because it is not clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

At the risk of violating the rules as pertains to date setting: I'd guestimate - some 15 or 16 days - not long. EOT :saint:

Not only is pre-trib weak. It seems that one must totally ignore what 2 Thessalonians 4 actually says. It is ironic that it seems to be one of the verses used to prove that there actually is a rapture - but the sequence is skimmed right past.

yoSAMite
Sep 15th 2008, 07:13 PM
Joe King said:

No one can explain to me why we would be exempt from the tribulation when Jesus had to suffer.I guess terminology here is important. If by tribulation you mean general suffering and persecution then you are correct in believing we won't be exempt from that.

Deafpost said:

I only know three major signs would be happening prior imminent coming of ChristWith all due respect imminence means that nothing has to happen before the event takes place. Once you place an event in front of something it is no longer imminent.

Deafpost said:

Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period.I'll agree with you that technically the tribulation period is not 7 years, but it has become an accepted term for Daniel's 70th week. Jesus calls the final 3 1/2 years "the great tribulation."

If the 1 Thess verses don't say we are exempt from a coming wrath, what do they say?

The pre trib belief is that Daniel's 70th week cannot start until the restrainer is removed. We believe that that restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the indwelt church. So Daniel's 70th week (7 years) cannot begin until the church is removed. Being gone before the Wrath of God happens is an additional point, but it is not the main point of why we believe the rapture happens.

Deafpost said:

So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine. And amil and postmil didn't gain wide spread acceptance until Augustine around 384 AD (guess since he lived from 354-430ad). No one will disagree that the pre trib doctrine was popularized when you suggest, but there is a healthy debate as to it's beginnings.

Richard H
Sep 15th 2008, 07:43 PM
Hearsay:
My brother (who is not hear right now) told me of an article he read -

Christians in China are wishing they had not been taught pre-trib, so they would have been better prepared for what is going on right now.

crush
Sep 15th 2008, 07:45 PM
I would have to disagree. What has always been God's reason to keep Christians on the earth? It is to preach the Gospel.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 24....
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Christians preach the gospel and they do so in the flesh. This is why Jesus said the days are shortened, because otherwise there would be no flesh saved...Elect (Christians).....
Flesh saved for what? ... To preach the gospel to the kingdom....Then shall the end come. That is the purpose of the Elect (Christians) in this chapter.
We don't have to leave it to "logic", because Jesus already told us.

The GT has to last 1290 days otherwise Daniel's prophecy is in error [Dan 12:11] so the days being shortened can't mean that there will be 1200 days, or 1100 days, or 1000 days of GT, there has to be 1290.....
Rev 8:12 explains how the days can be "shortened" and the Daniel 1290 day prophecy can still apply...

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

So you can see that the days are LITERALLY shortened. IOW If one of our 24 hour days was shortened by 1/3 it would become an 18 hour day....

I suppose you could say that this would have the same effect as having fewer days if the reason for the shortening were to save the elect from the Beast (he could accomplish less evil in a 18 hour day than he could in a 24 hour day). Possibly God shortens the days to save the earth and all flesh, man and animals, from the scorching heat plague [Rev 16:8]. So that the "elect" [meaning remnant Israel] will have a earth to rule over during the Millenium.

But God doesn't need to shorten the days to save the "flesh" of the saints that should be martyred during the GT LOL, these are the ones that die for their testimony [Rev 6:9].

IPet2_9
Sep 15th 2008, 07:46 PM
I guess terminology here is important. If by tribulation you mean general suffering and persecution then you are correct in believing we won't be exempt from that.

It's possible that that's exactly what the Tribulation is. That is what the Idealistic viewpoint of Revelation teaches. And some amill.

vinsight4u8
Sep 15th 2008, 07:46 PM
The rapture happens at the start of chapter 19 of Revelation. Jesus is to appear at the salvation time.

Hebrews 9:28
1 Thes. 5:9

What gets said at the start of ch 19?
salvation

then after the marriage - more than one army of those saints will come from heaven
-but
only one army will go to Armageddon
-for the other army already gained victory over the beast

John146
Sep 16th 2008, 05:17 PM
The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

This same Greek word Eklektos is used in the following quoted scriptures.
Which shows that the elect in Matthew 24 is the Body of Christ (Church/Christians).



Also to say that Matthew 24 is written to Israel, it must be noted that Jesus was talking to his disciples. Who were the disciples? They were the 1st Church…1st Saved…1st Christians. Jesus was talking to the Church/Christians/Body of Christ.
Jew’s (Israel) do not even read the New Testament. So it is quite clear that Jesus was talking about the Body of Christ here in Matthew 24 when he said Elect.


Yes, God has not appointed us to wrath, but the Great tribulation is NOT Gods wrath.
The Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath against God’s people.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We are never appointed to God’s wrath. God’s wrath is for the ungodly.

We are not told we would escape persecution.
Jn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The servant is NOT greater than his Lord.Good post. I agree. The elect refers to the body of Christ which is all of God's people whether Jew or Gentile. The dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then those who alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will be gathered by the angels and caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air when He comes again. The parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 and the parable of the fishing net from Matthew 13:47-50 both show that the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of all people for judgment occurs at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. And He returns "after the tribulation of those days".

Gods Child
Sep 17th 2008, 03:03 AM
Good post. I agree. The elect refers to the body of Christ which is all of God's people whether Jew or Gentile. The dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then those who alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will be gathered by the angels and caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air when He comes again. The parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 and the parable of the fishing net from Matthew 13:47-50 both show that the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of all people for judgment occurs at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. And He returns "after the tribulation of those days".

Thank you John146

I was beginning to think that I was beating my drum alone. Although I will continue to beat on this drum until I die, or I'm gathered (at the end) which ever comes first, but it is a much sweeter music if there is more than just one drum.

Gods Child
Sep 17th 2008, 03:35 AM
The GT has to last 1290 days otherwise Daniel's prophecy is in error [Dan 12:11] so the days being shortened can't mean that there will be 1200 days, or 1100 days, or 1000 days of GT, there has to be 1290.....
Rev 8:12 explains how the days can be "shortened" and the Daniel 1290 day prophecy can still apply...

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

So you can see that the days are LITERALLY shortened. IOW If one of our 24 hour days was shortened by 1/3 it would become an 18 hour day....

I suppose you could say that this would have the same effect as having fewer days if the reason for the shortening were to save the elect from the Beast (he could accomplish less evil in a 18 hour day than he could in a 24 hour day). Possibly God shortens the days to save the earth and all flesh, man and animals, from the scorching heat plague [Rev 16:8]. So that the "elect" [meaning remnant Israel] will have a earth to rule over during the Millenium.




The 1290 days equals 3 1/2 years plus 30 days. This is not the whole 70th week, which is 7 years....Shortened 3 1/2 years.
Yes, it will be shortened for the elect (Christians) sake to preserve the flesh to preach the gospel to all the kingdoms as Jesus said.
Why would God need to shorten the days to save the flesh for Israel sake?


But God doesn't need to shorten the days to save the "flesh" of the saints that should be martyred during the GT LOL, these are the ones that die for their testimony [Rev 6:9].
If they have the testimony of Jesus Christ....Then they are Christians and will be part of the promise of the rapture & marriage supper.
If they were not part of the rapture & marriage supper, then God lied to them when he said that ALL will be changed (raptured)

1 Cor :51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet (last trump)....READ Rev 14, for it is the ONLY time that we are shown when Jesus comes in the clouds to gather his own and it happens at the last trump...We ALL will be changed (raptured)..God will not lie to ONE of his children....Jesus will not leave ONE christian behind....Those that have his testimony in the tribulation will be included.

Acerohombre
Sep 18th 2008, 12:42 AM
"Tribulation"is used in the Bible, as I know of, in three separate terminologies.

1. Tribulation, as John says "brother in Tribulation".
2. Great Tribulation, as in "they that come out of Great Tribulation"
3. Great Tribulation, like no other, nor shall there ever be again.

Tribulation occurs around us all the time on a daily basis. Great Tribulation is and will also be times of great trouble, wars rumors of wars, Hitler.

But a time of Great Tribulation nor shall there ever be again clearly has not occurred. There has not been a time of Abomination that maketh Desolate. It is the time when the Antichrist will temp the whole world to worship him and it's not happened yet. At that time, there will be a harvest of the earth to collect those who have patience and will not worship, Rev. 14. See if that doesn't look like 1Thes, crying of the Archangel, Son of Man on the Clouds, etc.

True Christians will not have to endure the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come to all of the people who are alive and remain on the Earth at that greatest time of Tribulation.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 04:22 AM
"Tribulation"is used in the Bible, as I know of, in three separate terminologies.

1. Tribulation, as John says "brother in Tribulation".
2. Great Tribulation, as in "they that come out of Great Tribulation"
3. Great Tribulation, like no other, nor shall there ever be again.

Tribulation occurs around us all the time on a daily basis. Great Tribulation is and will also be times of great trouble, wars rumors of wars, Hitler.

But a time of Great Tribulation nor shall there ever be again clearly has not occurred. There has not been a time of Abomination that maketh Desolate. It is the time when the Antichrist will temp the whole world to worship him and it's not happened yet. At that time, there will be a harvest of the earth to collect those who have patience and will not worship, Rev. 14. See if that doesn't look like 1Thes, crying of the Archangel, Son of Man on the Clouds, etc.I can go along with everything said so far. :yes:
True Christians will not have to endure the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come to all of the people who are alive and remain on the Earth at that greatest time of Tribulation.You just keep telling yourself that. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/madyes.gif

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 06:01 AM
To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 06:18 AM
To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

For the same reason, I tend to believe the rapture is "mid-trib" AND that that constitutes the end. In effect, that's the same as post-trib with a non-seven-year period.

redskittle
Sep 18th 2008, 07:36 AM
I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

by the way if someone has already answered this question please forgive me. this thread is now 4 pages long and i haven't had a chance to read everyone's response.

thanks.

jeffweeder
Sep 18th 2008, 08:26 AM
I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

Your not being rude....its a good qu.

No , it doesnt appear, but it refers to the time when the lord gathers us to himself.
The Lord must come again, and when he does he raises the dead first, and together with the living ..he recieves us to himself.
Jesus said he would raise us the last day.

How do we define the last day....when the ressurection happens?

JOB 14
"But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?

11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.




.
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah




10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Well that defines why it is the last day, as the heavens are no more.
The tribulation happens under the old heavens, as the new heavens are reserved for righteousness only.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 03:31 PM
To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.He cuts the days short at precisely 2,520 days. The Antichrist would have it go longer in his effort to obliterate the Jews, but Jesus cuts him short on Day # 2,520.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 03:33 PM
I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 04:04 PM
The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

It does make it significantly harder to prove, though. It's the reason why we have pre-trib, post-trib, preterists, and it looks like soul sleep, too (looks like jeffweeder believes in soul sleep).

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 04:08 PM
The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

The difference however, is the concept of what the word trinity represents, that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; is all clearly written throughout the scriptures in many places; without the need of the short-cut 'Trinity' term.

The concept of a Rapture being another coming of Jesus from Heaven to gather people to Heaven at a time different than the '2nd Coming' however, is not a concept that is clear written thoughout the scriptures in many places. It is a belief based on inference and interpretation being used to say some passages are 2nd Coming passages and some are 'rapture' passages; whereas the text itself never clearly tells us to make this type of inference or interpretation.

The Scriptures themselves only speak of one future singular coming of the Lord from Heaven. Never do they speak of plural future comings from Heaven, or do they differentiate between the first future coming and the next future coming after that.

So that is a large reason why 'Trinity' and 'Rapture' while neither word are used, are based on completely different rationals.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 04:30 PM
The difference however, is the concept of what the word trinity represents, that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; is all clearly written throughout the scriptures in many places; without the need of the short-cut 'Trinity' term.

The concept of a Rapture being another coming of Jesus from Heaven to gather people to Heaven at a time different than the '2nd Coming' however, is not a concept that is clear written thoughout the scriptures in many places. It is a belief based on inference and interpretation being used to say some passages are 2nd Coming passages and some are 'rapture' passages; whereas the text itself never clearly tells us to make this type of inference or interpretation.

The Scriptures themselves only speak of one future singular coming of the Lord from Heaven. Never do they speak of plural future comings from Heaven, or do they differentiate between the first future coming and the next future coming after that.

So that is a large reason why 'Trinity' and 'Rapture' while neither word are used, are based on completely different rationals.Agreed completely. My point was simply that the word "Rapture" not appearing in the Bible is not a valid argument for accepting/rejecting it.

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 04:33 PM
But a good reason for questioning why it is such an accepted doctrine.

Question 'Trinity' or 'Bible' as words not used in the scriptures, and you'll find many quick, very clear, and straightforward scriptural examples of why those words represent accepted doctrine.

Question 'Rapture' as a word not used in the scripture, and you'll get a good idea why there is so much disagreement, and one big reason why we have a specific ETC discussion subforum.

yoSAMite
Sep 18th 2008, 06:44 PM
I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

I take no offense as the question didn't seem to be delivered in a mean spirited way.

As stated above the word "rapture" is not in the English Bible. But the process of a rapture is. It comes from 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:" The words translated "caught up" are in the Greek "harpazo," another term you may hear for the idea of rapture. The word harpazo means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” In the Latin Vulgate the equivilant word to "caught up" and "harpazo" is "rapiemur", to take away by force. *In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this past participle.)* [*...* this is a quote from Chuck Missler]

Rapture theology is a combination of 1 Thes 4:17 and 1 Cor 15:51-55. It is simply believed that the rapture is the transformation of our earthly bodies into heavenly bodies at the twinkling of an eye and meeting Jesus in the air. So what is usually discussed is not the process of the rapture, but the timing of it.

BroRog
Sep 18th 2008, 07:15 PM
To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

I don't think this is right and here's why.

Jesus says that the days are cut short for the sake of the elect. The issue appears to center around the preservation of the elect. That is, if the duration of the tribulation were to go beyond a certain time 'T', say "T + 1" day, then all flesh would be destroyed. But in the best interests of the elect, the Tribulation will not last until time 'T', but it will end some time sooner than that, say "T - 1".

However, once we introduce the idea of the rapture, things get confusing. For if God plans to end the Tribulation at "T - 1" day for the best interests of the elect, then why a rapture? If God is planing on taking the elect off the earth, then it would be in their best interest if God took them off the earth, in which case the duration of the Tribulation is irrelevant since the elect are already in heaven awaiting the next age and fully protected.

In fact, why have a tribulation in the first place? Why not rapture us all right now and get it over with?

Chondram
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:24 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.
Thank you.

In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).

I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure. The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.

I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

PS, after reading the above response, I do know Christians will be taken BEFORE GOD'S WRATH. But satan's wrath..ummm, different story...still praying for the pre-trib rapture, but preparing for the worst!

vinsight4u8
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:13 PM
In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).

I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure. The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.

I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

I believe that we are in the time of sorrows. The time that was shown to Daniel at the start of chapter 10 that made him sad. He mourned for how long?
three full weeks

Daniel 9 - the angel comes to him and tells a message , but before he gives the message - he told Daniel to consider the vision.
What vision should be considered?
The three full weeks vision - as in 21 years of sorrow that was shown to Daniel in chapter 10 and we find the details of it - starting in Daniel 11:14. This is why I expect the Palestinians to fall before long.

As for the rapture of the chruch timing?
Have you considered Hebrews 9:28 and what is said at the start of Rev. 19?
as to Jesus will appear at the time of salvation

Then consider too - Rev. 12 and Rev. 7, as they show the time of great tribulation martyrdom happens first.

vinsight4u8
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:19 PM
I don't see a mid-trib rapture (the days and nights get less hours in them in the 4th trumpet time) so time was shortened - but the amount of days must stay the same - leading us to only a 7th trumpet great earthquake hour resurrection of the just and rapture. The hour when the angel told John how the two slain witnesses will rise and the remnant give glory to the God of heaven.

As for when is the church last mentioned in Revelation?
The first few chapters have told her to endure to the end - keep His works. Chapter 4 has an ending that seems to be missed - as here is when Rev. 11:16 is also taking place.
the seated elders do not ever get their at the throne seats back

so -falling from their seats
can only happen at the 7th trumpet

Rev.4 is ending at the time of the 7th trumpet has started to sound.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:41 AM
In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).The part about the Church not being mentioned after Revelation 3 is only an argument from silence and is inconclusive. Note that there are numerous mentions of the "saints".
I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure.Re-examining your beliefs is always a wise thing to do.
The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.Another very wise thing to do.
I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

PS, after reading the above response, I do know Christians will be taken BEFORE GOD'S WRATH. But satan's wrath..ummm, different story...still praying for the pre-trib rapture, but preparing for the worst!I would point out that, from a true Post-Trib point of view, the wrath of God does not begin until after the Tribulation, the 2nd Coming, and after the Rapture. The Post-Trib view, when properly understood, does not have the saints/Church going through one single second of God's wrath during the Day of the Lord. Unfortunately, the Post-Trib view is so misunderstood, even by its own adherents, that it winds up shooting itself in the foot in the hands of such people.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 11th 2010, 09:11 PM
When there is a conflict between the things you have been taught (or read, or seen in a movie) some where, and what scripture teaches one ought to doubt what they have been taught, not attempt to dismiss scripture....

"After the Tribulation of those days" means JUST THAT....

Blessings,

Not Authorized
Feb 12th 2010, 01:07 AM
As a first time poster, I'm pretty impressed at this thread. :) Usually, when I see these discussions, it turns into a theological boxing match which neither side will win. So far, it seems cordial, with both sides stating their beliefs, but no fists flying.

I do not believe that it is a salvation changing issue, in that if you don't believe in the pre-trib, or post-trib, that you are unsaved. I do believe you will not receive a certain crown if you are a post-tribulationist (Rev 3:11).

So as a disclaimer, I'm a pre-tribulationist viewholder.

However, I do accept and agree with our post-tribulation brothers on the issue of "Raptureitis".

Numerous times through the scriptures, we are told to know that there will be trials, and persecutions. Indeed, if you are not persecuted for your beliefs today, you should question whether or not you are Christs' sheep.

The Rapture is not a "Get out of Jail Free" card to get you out of trouble. If you're having a bad day at work, that is not what the Rapture is intended for.

Nor does it mean that if our nation falls, or we come into tough times, or disasters, that God will not provide alternative means by his will to ensure our survival and that he failed somehow by not rapturing you before your own trials. I believe Christians, particularly in the United States are going to be forced underground one day soon.

Many Christians, throughout all history have died for the faith, and so much more so in the 20th century than the rest combined. A Christian should expect to die at any time because of his or her beliefs.

However -- just because people have 'Raptureitis", does not mean it's incorrect. As a rhetorical question, we believe in God's grace and forgiveness for our sins, correct? However, some people turn that grace and forgiveness into a license to sin without restraint.

Is the Doctrine in error, or the people that hold that view? Same with Pre-trib and "Raptureitis"

The Rapture is for His glory, not ours, and I believe that some people lose view of this fact when discussing the pre-trib rapture.

Now, on to the topic at hand, mainly the Matthew passage. First, I believe that Matthew is focusing specifically on Israel. Luke's gospel focuses on the Gentiles. I cannot count how many commentaries miss this fact, by lumping the 3 Oliviet (Matthew, Mark, Luke) discourses all into the same group.

Matthew deals with "after these things", Luke (Luke 21:12) deals with "before". That is after the fall of Jerusalem, and before the Fall specifically.

As such, Matthew's Gospel is very idiomatic of the nation or Israel, as their Messiah, and their future.

Unfortunately, many wonderful scholars, teachers, and commentaries miss this, particuarlly with this discourse, and attempt to squeeze their theological view into it. It's like squeezing a square peg into a round hole.

Christ is not reveiling something new. He's re-iterating what the prophets already said about this very event. As Matthew is focused on Israel, then we would expect similar language as to the scattering, and gathering of the elect in the Old Testament.

As the Church was hidden at this point (not yet Pentecost), then this event must refer to the prophets and something his Jewish disciples could relate to.

Isaiah 43:5-7, 65:7-16, Deuteronomy 30:4, Ezek. 5:10, 12 and Ezek. 17:21, Zechariah 2:6 all speak of this very description in some form and fashion.

Isaiah 27:13 is more demanding, as not only does it teach that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland, but it will be in conjunction with the blowing of "a great trumpet". As a link, to ensure we're talking about the same event, Isaiah 11:11-12 speaks of a gathering "from the four corners of the earth."

As a side note, there is a prayer for this very regathering in some Jewish Daily Prayer books.

With those scriptures in view, it is extraordinarily difficult with the OT passages describing this event relating to Israel, to insist that this is the Rapture of the Church. We then have to replace Israel with the Church, which is a slippery slope that no one who believes their is a distinct separation of the Church and Israel wishes to slide down.

More so, the direct drawings of Matthew 24:31 vs 1 Thes 4:16 do not match. They are similar, just as his ascension was, but different.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God"

In Matthews Account, we have Christ sending his Angels, with the sound of a trumpet. Those angels then gather together his elect from the 4 winds. (See OT references)

In Paul's version speaking to the Gentiles, only the Lord descends (no angels) and gathers them himself (link, John 14:3). We have a shout included (not in Matthew), with the voice of the archangel which is singular, and the trump of God.

Paul's Rapture verse matches more of John's "rapture" in Rev 4, where the 7 lamp-stands are now in heaven which was directly after the 7 Letters to the Churches (Prophetic of the Church Age), than it does Matthews account.

But, even more convincing to me is that Christ comes first, and then the gathering happens in Matthew. This is a two step process that does not reconcile with Jude 1:14 and 1 Th 3:13, as they both state that his saints/all of his saints will come/be with him during at his return.

If that's the case, we must be with him in v30... The post trib view has the rapture happening at v31 and breaks Jude and Paul's writings.

We got a problem at this point. If it's the rapture, then either Jesus is right, and Jude and Paul are wrong (making them false teachers), or we have a separate event taking place, making them all right.

That is one of the main reasons I abandoned the post-tribulation theology, and accepted a pre-tribulation theology. If Matthew is in context to Israel being gathered, then it matches and is harmonious with the prophetical OT gathering of Israel but not the Rapture of the Church.

I hope I didn't step on many toes and look forward to reading and writing more on the forums. :)

There's a lot more I've studied to backup my view, even in the secular world which Satan is doing his darnedest to explain away the pre-trib view when it happens but not the post trib.. but I'm here to contribute to the post.. not write a book! :)

SoldaatVirYAH
Feb 16th 2010, 03:15 PM
There will be a pre-trib rapture of the Bride. The Bride will be raptured and then the Great Tribulation of 7 years will start. GOD, whom we also call YAHWEH is telling us that HE will not make HIS Bride go through the Great Tribulation. When the Great Tribulation starts, the antichrist will be revealed and he will be acting like a god. He will tell people that he is God and call himself Jesus. he will mislead millions of people with false signs and wonders, making them believe that he is the real Jesus. When the antichrist defiles the Name Jesus, we have to call upon the real Jesus in Heaven, and use HIS True Hebrew NAME YAHUSHUA to be saved and protected.

YAHUSHUA will come back again during the Great Tribulation, to fetch HIS true followers who still have faith and who did not accepted the mark of the beast. This is when the 2 witnesses will also be raptured up to Heaven.

YAHUSHUA is already teaching us to use HIS True Hebrew NAME, so when these times come, we will know how to call upon the ONLY Saviour in Heaven to be saved and protected. YAHUSHUA is teaching us HIS Jewishness. And GOD YAHWEH is telling us to keep HIS Jewish Feast days again. We honor the True Sabbath day, that is Saturday and not Sunday. The fourth Commandment says, Keep the Sabbath day Holy
YAHWEH is telling us that HIS Bride will keep all of the 10 Commandments, and this include the 4th command.

Three years ago YAHUSHUA appeared to me and HE led me to these truths i'm telling you all right now. I have seen HIS face many times in the clouds and GOD has written HIS NAME YAH in the clouds where I did take pictures.
http://www.africaforyahushua.com/afrgallery.htm

I was led to the Almightywind website where GOD is speaking to the world and HE is revealing these truths to warn the people of what is coming. Read the prophecies, especially No. 102. GOD YAHWEH has already released 117 prophecies on HIS Almightywind Ministry website. www.amightywind.com (http://www.amightywind.com)

Uncle Bud
Feb 16th 2010, 04:10 PM
Since the Tribulation happened in 70 A.D. with the Destruction of Jerusalem and Christ has not yet returned, I would consider myself very, very post-trib.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 26th 2011, 05:45 PM
Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.

It is amazing how simple the scripture is when you set aside the teaching of man and just read what it says. :)

Servant89
Mar 26th 2011, 08:00 PM
But a good reason for questioning why it is such an accepted doctrine.

Question 'Trinity' or 'Bible' as words not used in the scriptures, and you'll find many quick, very clear, and straightforward scriptural examples of why those words represent accepted doctrine.

Question 'Rapture' as a word not used in the scripture, and you'll get a good idea why there is so much disagreement, and one big reason why we have a specific ETC discussion subforum.

AMEN ! 2,000 years ago, the religious people argued about whether there was a resurrection or not. Sadducees denied it, Pharisees believed there was going to be a resurrection. There is nothing new under the sun. Today we argue about the same exact moment in time, a twinkling of an eye later. Today we argue about the rapture.

But 2,000 years ago, the word "resurrection" was not in the BIble. It is nowhere to be found in the OT. Yet, it was not an excuse for not believing in it as Jesus told the Saduccees. Like wise, God is the same today and forever, if he used a word not in the Bible 2,000 years ago, to name a doctrine (resurrection), why is it a surprise to think he will do it again? He has.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 26th 2011, 08:02 PM
The post tribulation rapture position is seen in the following Scriptures:

1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).
5. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.
10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).
13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).
14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.
15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.
16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).
17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.
18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.
19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).
20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.
22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).
23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).
24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).
25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).
26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.
27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).
28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).
29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).
30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).
31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).
32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

What you will not find in Scriptures… There are no verses that state:

1. That Daniel’s 70th week is what triggers God’s wrath.
2. That the first 5 seals or the first 6 trumpets are part of God’s wrath.
3. That there will be an invisible coming of Jesus Christ.
4. That Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Joshua and Noah are not part of the body of Christ (the Church).
5. That the Holy Spirit is the one that is the restrainer of 2The 2:1-12.
6. That there is a rapture before the great tribulation or before the first seal.
7. That there will be a rapture before the 6th seal or before the 7th trumpet.
8. That all the seals, trumpets and vials will occur within a period of 7 years.
9. That God is more interested in comforting the flesh than building the character of the Church.

Shalom

ross3421
Mar 26th 2011, 09:29 PM
Since the Tribulation happened in 70 A.D. with the Destruction of Jerusalem and Christ has not yet returned, I would consider myself very, very post-trib.

and just like Gilligan........ :)

ross3421
Mar 26th 2011, 09:35 PM
There is no rapture of the living, post, mid or pre.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Servant89
Mar 26th 2011, 11:48 PM
And that is why the government would not trust anyone on the road driving unless they prove first, through a written exam, that they know how to interpret the law. If I drive at 25 mph all the time quoting a sign I saw before a school, I do not know how to interpret the law. That is why Jesus in Mat 12:1-6 told the interpreters of the law, but haven't you read in this other place and in this other place verses that prove your interpretation wrong?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Shalom

ross3421
Mar 28th 2011, 03:47 AM
And that is why the government would not trust anyone on the road driving unless they prove first, through a written exam, that they know how to interpret the law. If I drive at 25 mph all the time quoting a sign I saw before a school, I do not know how to interpret the law. That is why Jesus in Mat 12:1-6 told the interpreters of the law, but haven't you read in this other place and in this other place verses that prove your interpretation wrong?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Shalom

It says we shall not all sleep not that we shall not all die. So what is Paul telling us? Of course he is not telling us that we shall not all die evidenced by his own words in the same chapter. How can he say some do not die when he stated you cannot rise unless you die......Paul is telling us that we shall not sleep "forever" but be resurrected to life.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In the following verses there is only one subject matter, WE. This "we" is the same group in both verses. There is not the dead and then another group and the group, the "we". Rather the dead are the we which shall be changed. Below we see those to be quickened, resurrected, which must be the dead not anyone living.

1co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

divaD
Mar 28th 2011, 03:12 PM
It says we shall not all sleep not that we shall not all die. So what is Paul telling us? Of course he is not telling us that we shall not all die evidenced by his own words in the same chapter. How can he say some do not die when he stated you cannot rise unless you die......Paul is telling us that we shall not sleep "forever" but be resurrected to life.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In the following verses there is only one subject matter, WE. This "we" is the same group in both verses. There is not the dead and then another group and the group, the "we". Rather the dead are the we which shall be changed. Below we see those to be quickened, resurrected, which must be the dead not anyone living.

1co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



The context in 1 Cor 15 is specifically dealing with the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of anyone alive at the time. Of course the 'we' in that context would be all of the physicakky dead saints. But we have to use other Scriptures to see the bigger picture, and then treat each context accordingly.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him

Paul explained all of that in 1 Cor 15. But Paul adds something else to the picture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


He tells us there will be some who are physically alive and remain at His coming. He says these will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. That's a rising also, but not in the sense of literally rising from the grave. Keep in mind, it says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Who then rises second? Those that are alive and remain. In order to meet someone in the air from the ground, that requires a rising, technically speaking. Before I forget, the changing in a twinkling of an eye in 1 Cor 15..this obviously has to apply to those who are alive and remain as well.

ross3421
Mar 28th 2011, 04:55 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


He tells us there will be some who are physically alive and remain at His coming. He says these will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. That's a rising also, but not in the sense of literally rising from the grave. Keep in mind, it says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Who then rises second? Those that are alive and remain. In order to meet someone in the air from the ground, that requires a rising, technically speaking. Before I forget, the changing in a twinkling of an eye in 1 Cor 15..this obviously has to apply to those who are alive and remain as well.

What happens once we are resurrected per 1 Cor 15? We are made alive.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Again, the same holds true that for anyone to be resurrected they MUST die.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


So then the alive and remain ARE the dead in Christ which rise first.


So here is the understanding of the verse.......

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we (same "we" as in 1 Cor 15 are resurrected in a twinkling of and eye) which are alive and remain (alive after being resurrected and remain as all others are cast away) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

divaD
Mar 28th 2011, 07:33 PM
What happens once we are resurrected per 1 Cor 15? We are made alive.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Again, the same holds true that for anyone to be resurrected they MUST die.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


So then the alive and remain ARE the dead in Christ which rise first.


So here is the understanding of the verse.......

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we (same "we" as in 1 Cor 15 are resurrected in a twinkling of and eye) which are alive and remain (alive after being resurrected and remain as all others are cast away) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



I can sort of see the point you're trying to make in this post, but not fully tho. Straight up, when Christ returns, do you believe there will be physically alive saints? For instance, you're alive, and you're a saint. Do you believe you could still be physically alive when Christ returns? Or anybody for that matter?

mattlad22
Mar 28th 2011, 08:50 PM
I dont see your point at all.

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"
Which means the servants of Christ that have been dead, will rise.

Then we which are alive and remain (the "we" represents the entire church of the servants of Christ) shall be caught up to meet them.

So
dead servant --->raise
alive servant --->raise
which then "we" meet up in the air.

When Paul says "we" in Corinthians, Paul is adressing the church of the servants of Christ as a whole.

We shall not all sleep (some will be sleeping, some wont) but we shall be changed (the ones that are sleeping and the ones that are not, all changed)

Again Pauls notifies that the dead shall be changed.
We shall be changed. (incorruption does not put on corruption, but corruption through the Lord puts on inccoruption)
God through Paul just told you how it happens to both dead and alive in Christ.

zorba
Mar 28th 2011, 09:57 PM
I am new here and have not read every post in thios thread. I will do it in the next day though. But I personally do not believe in the rapture. There will be the tribulation and Jesus comes back, but I wish someone could give me some Biblical versus showing the Rapture is pre tribulation.

ross3421
Mar 29th 2011, 01:33 AM
For instance, you're alive, and you're a saint. Do you believe you could still be physically alive when Christ returns? Or anybody for that matter?

No. There will be no "saints" alive on earth when Christ returns. Why?

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

ALL the born again believers will be killed by the beast prior. Amen.

ross3421
Mar 29th 2011, 02:03 AM
I dont see your point at all.

You need to get out of that box......... Seriously I was the same and could not see it because I came to these verses with a preconceived understanding how they should be interpreted. However when I understood "alive" occurred once we were resurrected it came into focus.


Then we which are alive and remain (the "we" represents the entire church of the servants of Christ) shall be caught up to meet them.

I agree the "we" represents the entire church body as all have been resurrected and now all are alive. The we are the dead transformed!

1th 4:16 and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain

But if you are saying some of the "we" are dead and some are living this is not what the verse is saying.


When Paul says "we" in Corinthians, Paul is adressing the church of the servants of Christ as a whole.

So who was the part which was dead and who was going to be alive? Paul would be included in the "we" correct so did he think he was going to be alive on the earth when Christ returned? If so he missed that one.


We shall not all sleep (some will be sleeping, some wont)

At first you could say this is what Paul means concerning sleep which then most translate to mean not all say die. This is of course against all scriptures that one must die for his sins including Christ I might add (note he was not a sinner but took on the sins of the world and had to die, good thing he was not raptured huh). Paul then is saying we shall not always sleep but be changed as he himself stated that to be changed one must die.

mattlad22
Mar 29th 2011, 07:20 AM
You need to get out of that box......... Seriously I was the same and could not see it because I came to these verses with a preconceived understanding how they should be interpreted. However when I understood "alive" occurred once we were resurrected it came into focus.



I agree the "we" represents the entire church body as all have been resurrected and now all are alive. The we are the dead transformed!

1th 4:16 and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain

But if you are saying some of the "we" are dead and some are living this is not what the verse is saying.



So who was the part which was dead and who was going to be alive? Paul would be included in the "we" correct so did he think he was going to be alive on the earth when Christ returned? If so he missed that one.



At first you could say this is what Paul means concerning sleep which then most translate to mean not all say die. This is of course against all scriptures that one must die for his sins including Christ I might add (note he was not a sinner but took on the sins of the world and had to die, good thing he was not raptured huh). Paul then is saying we shall not always sleep but be changed as he himself stated that to be changed one must die.

Paul used himself in the we because he was alive.

no servants of Christ when He comes?
After the 2 witnesses die and are raised and there is a great earthquake that destroys a tenth of Jerusalem what happens? 7000 people are killed and the rest give glory to God.
How do you give glory to God?
thats a bunch of servants of Christ right there.

Whats does God command as the whore is being destroyed?
Come out of her my people less you partake in her plagues.
Whos God's people? born again through Christ people.

Servant89
Mar 29th 2011, 11:06 AM
It says we shall not all sleep not that we shall not all die. So what is Paul telling us? Of course he is not telling us that we shall not all die evidenced by his own words in the same chapter. How can he say some do not die when he stated you cannot rise unless you die......Paul is telling us that we shall not sleep "forever" but be resurrected to life.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In the following verses there is only one subject matter, WE. This "we" is the same group in both verses. There is not the dead and then another group and the group, the "we". Rather the dead are the we which shall be changed. Below we see those to be quickened, resurrected, which must be the dead not anyone living.

1co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I see how you understand the passage. Thanks for sharing.

Shalom

ross3421
Mar 29th 2011, 11:09 AM
Paul used himself in the we because he was alive.

no servants of Christ when He comes?
After the 2 witnesses die and are raised and there is a great earthquake that destroys a tenth of Jerusalem what happens? 7000 people are killed and the rest give glory to God.
How do you give glory to God?
thats a bunch of servants of Christ right there.

Those which give God the glory at this time are the remnant of Israel. The 144,000 which were previously sealed.

Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Interestingly the 7000 thousand men were those sought to be reserved and appears to be understood by this remnant however it appears this 7000 commit fornication and are wiped out thus leaving these 144,000 affrightened that if God has done this what shall he do to us?

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Ro 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Whats does God command as the whore is being destroyed?
Come out of her my people less you partake in her plagues.
Whos God's people? born again through Christ people.

God's people being spoken here are this remnant of Israel.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The phrase "my people" in relation to Israel is used some 80 times in scripture.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 29th 2011, 04:27 PM
I am new here and have not read every post in thios thread. I will do it in the next day though. But I personally do not believe in the rapture. There will be the tribulation and Jesus comes back, but I wish someone could give me some Biblical versus showing the Rapture is pre tribulation.

Hello Zorba and welcome. :)

The post you made very much aligns with scripture, the Lord Himself said as much in Matthew 24. The pre-trib position is based on the teachings of men, and while scripture is used to support it the basic concept has to be 'taken into scripture' to stand. :hmm: Not a very sound way to interpret scripture IMHO.

Simply reading the scripture will not lead to the pre-trib view on it's own, but rather one must first assume pre-trib and then look for scriptures to support that view. I once accepted this teaching, but when I sought out what the scripture taught I could no longer see the pre-trib position supported in scripture.

There are many threads here that discuss this. I hope that you will be blessed by the time you spend reading them, but more so that you will be blessed by looking into the Word and seeking that the Lord would show you His Truth from the scripture. :idea:

Blessings,

mattlad22
Mar 29th 2011, 08:29 PM
I actually believe that those people who give glory to God are the remnant also.
But they still believe that my Lord is their Lord, thats is, the Christ, to be a remnant.

This event takes place in Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is the whore, mystery babylon.

When God destroys mystery Babylon in one hour He commands His people (that remnant) to flee from her (leave Jerusalem) or partake in her plagues.

I was simply showing you that yes in fact there indeed can be people alive at the coming of Christ, in relation to being changed with the dead, dawning incorruption and meeting those dead in Christ in the air with our Lord.

ross3421
Mar 30th 2011, 10:36 AM
I actually believe that those people who give glory to God are the remnant also.
But they still believe that my Lord is their Lord, thats is, the Christ, to be a remnant.

This event takes place in Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is the whore, mystery babylon.

When God destroys mystery Babylon in one hour He commands His people (that remnant) to flee from her (leave Jerusalem) or partake in her plagues.

I was simply showing you that yes in fact there indeed can be people alive at the coming of Christ, in relation to being changed with the dead, dawning incorruption and meeting those dead in Christ in the air with our Lord.

Thanks......yes they are living when Christ returns but they still die. We see their resurrection in EZ 37 FROM THE GRAVE..

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:21 PM
Hello Zorba and welcome. :)

The post you made very much aligns with scripture, the Lord Himself said as much in Matthew 24. The pre-trib position is based on the teachings of men, and while scripture is used to support it the basic concept has to be 'taken into scripture' to stand. :hmm: Not a very sound way to interpret scripture IMHO.

Simply reading the scripture will not lead to the pre-trib view on it's own, but rather one must first assume pre-trib and then look for scriptures to support that view. I once accepted this teaching, but when I sought out what the scripture taught I could no longer see the pre-trib position supported in scripture.

There are many threads here that discuss this. I hope that you will be blessed by the time you spend reading them, but more so that you will be blessed by looking into the Word and seeking that the Lord would show you His Truth from the scripture. :idea:

Blessings,


From what I understand, the rapture was a theory of the 19 th century church. It was never mentioned before that.

David Taylor
Apr 1st 2011, 12:02 PM
From what I understand, the rapture was a theory of the 19 th century church. It was never mentioned before that.

correct, no groups, denomonations, or congregations taught pre-trib prior to the 19th century. John Darby got the concept from the visions of a teenage prophetess, and systematized it, and began teaching it in his plymouth brethren group. it became popular with the doctrinal insertion into the footnotes and personal commentary of cyrus scoffields 20th century bible, and moreso with the sensatonal fictional writings of hal lindsay in the 70s and tim lahaye novels in the 90s.

some historic revisionists like grant jefferies have attempted to present obscure and vague references prior to the 19th century prooving pretrib predated darby, but there's no merit there, and any honest scholar must admit it is a 19th century concept read and interpreted into the scdiptures and history, not deleviered from them.

prior to the 19th century, all christian groups, denominations, and congegations who discussed the rapture/resurrection did so as one event for all humankind, occuring at the 2nd advent....never ripped and split apart and away from it.