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~Godrocks~
Sep 16th 2008, 12:46 AM
So the christian people that will not accept the mark of the beast, they will starve to death since it says,no one with the mark of the beast will buy or sell... but with different words.:hmm:

Marc B
Sep 16th 2008, 01:13 PM
Well then now is a good time to learn to hunt for your food and live off the land. There may come a time when you will have to trade, barter or work for supplies instead of money to live. I think you meant nobody without the mark can buy or sell.

Kahtar
Sep 16th 2008, 01:25 PM
EVen better than that, now is a good time to learn to trust God for ALL your needs. Do you trust Him enough to provide you food when you cannot get it yourself?

Roelof
Sep 17th 2008, 05:05 AM
God will protect His true children until the Rapture !

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 05:21 AM
God will protect His true children until the Rapture !

Absolutely. There will be some hard times though.

David Taylor
Sep 17th 2008, 09:27 PM
God will protect His true children until the Rapture !

Nope.

God will protect His children always, even until the end of the world, even during the tribulation of the Last days.

"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

"for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee" Deuteronomy 4:30

Jesus said, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." John 17:15

cwb
Sep 17th 2008, 10:42 PM
God will protect His true children until the Rapture !







Nope.

God will protect His children always, even until the end of the world, even during the tribulation of the Last days.

"

I thought you believed the rapture is post trib.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 04:31 AM
God will protect His children always, even until the end of the world, even during the tribulation of the Last days.
I thought you believed the rapture is post trib.That sounded like perfect Post-Trib to me. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

cwb
Sep 18th 2008, 07:30 AM
That sounded like perfect Post-Trib to me. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

Roelof said God would protect His children until the rapture. David disagreed and said God would protect His children through the tribulation as well. For post-trib, there should be no disagreement that God will protect His children until the rapture (which would be after the tribulation). Do I have to spell it ALL out for you;)?

Roelof
Sep 18th 2008, 06:45 PM
Nope.

God will protect His children always, even until the end of the world, even during the tribulation of the Last days.

"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

"for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee" Deuteronomy 4:30

Jesus said, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." John 17:15

David

Thanks for the very comfortings verses. As I believe in a mid-trib Rapture, this Scripture helps a lot to assure people of God's guidance and support.

David Taylor
Sep 18th 2008, 07:17 PM
David

Thanks for the very comfortings verses. As I believe in a mid-trib Rapture, this Scripture helps a lot to assure people of God's guidance and support.

They even work for the Post-Trib believers! :o

Jude
Sep 19th 2008, 01:12 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/9-1.gif

I believe the doctrine for the Pre Second Coming Of Christ was written behind close doors.



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Joe King
Sep 19th 2008, 02:33 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/9-1.gif

I believe the doctrine for the Pre Second Coming Of Christ was written behind close doors.



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

:confused:confused

Jude
Sep 19th 2008, 10:57 AM
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/jgarcia8560/My%20Blessings/fantasy-03.jpg


Sorry wrong choice of words "I should have said" the Rapture Doctrine was written by men with a sinister goal in mind. This doctrine has done nothing more than to create confusion among the Brethren causing division and strife just the opposite of true Christian values. Now who do you suppose is a master at that? One more add on here a video for your viewing education. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmW9kgyvwkI&feature=related

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Duane Morse
Sep 19th 2008, 11:26 AM
So the christian people that will not accept the mark of the beast, they will starve to death since it says,no one with the mark of the beast will buy or sell... but with different words.:hmm:
Different words, yes.


Re 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

You got it rather backwards.
Those with the mark will be able to buy and sell.
Those without it, won't.

IBWatching
Sep 19th 2008, 04:50 PM
So the christian people that will not accept the mark of the beast, they will starve to death since it says,no one with the mark of the beast will buy or sell... but with different words.:hmm:

It isn't just about eating. Everyone who does not have the mark be be easy targets for persecution. That is why many die. Of course saints can trade and barter with other saints, and some will survive that way. But for how long, no one could know.

There will only be two kinds of people in the tribulation period. Believers, who will not have the mark, and unbelievers, who do. Whether these saints survive the tribulation period or not, their eternal life will depend on not having that mark.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 20th 2008, 03:28 AM
It isn't just about eating. Everyone who does not have the mark be be easy targets for persecution. That is why many die. Of course saints can trade and barter with other saints, and some will survive that way. But for how long, no one could know.

There will only be two kinds of people in the tribulation period. Believers, who will not have the mark, and unbelievers, who do. Whether these saints survive the tribulation period or not, their eternal life will depend on not having that mark.It appears from certain passages in the Old Testament that there will also be unbelievers who do not take the Mark.

Jude
Sep 20th 2008, 08:05 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/cid_004501c83ef5bf11e5f02862D1A1-1.jpg



Originally Posted by IBWatching
It isn't just about eating. Everyone who does not have the mark be be easy targets for persecution. That is why many die. Of course saints can trade and barter with other saints, and some will survive that way. But for how long, no one could know.

There will only be two kinds of people in the tribulation period. Believers, who will not have the mark, and unbelievers, who do. Whether these saints survive the tribulation period or not, their eternal life will depend on not having that mark.


It appears from certain passages in the Old Testament that there will also be unbelievers who do not take the Mark.

The Elect will be saved, all others will take the mark, its time
that every Christian went to the Lord and rededicated their lives.
If you haven't been witnessing to each and every single
person he puts in your path something is very very wrong.
It matters not their position in life, doctor, dentist,
school teacher, lawyer, cops, door to door salesmen/saleswomen,
each and every person, if not I think you
may be in danger of disobeying Jesus command,
do you get on your knees and ask his forgiveness when
one goes by and you wished you would have said something?
You shouldn't have to, sharing his gospel should come as natural
as taking a breath of his God given air. How would you like
to get one of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kq2xbMHcOw

Amos_with_goats
Feb 11th 2010, 05:26 PM
Nope.

God will protect His children always, even until the end of the world, even during the tribulation of the Last days.

"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

"for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee" Deuteronomy 4:30

Jesus said, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." John 17:15

Amen and amen.

Where ever doctrine contradicts the very words of Christ, let them be seen by all to be false!

Blessigns,

tango
Feb 11th 2010, 05:41 PM
So the christian people that will not accept the mark of the beast, they will starve to death since it says,no one with the mark of the beast will buy or sell... but with different words.:hmm:

Not necessarily. It says nobody can buy or sell. That means nobody can buy food without the mark of the beast, but doesn't mean they can't find food anywhere else.

Living off the land is one option, although with everything else described in Revelation I wouldn't count on it working out too well for very long. So it's down to whether God provides for us in other ways - like the manna sent to Moses and the Israelites, or the raven delivering meat to Elijah, or the widow whose oil and flour never ran out whie she provided for Elijah, or the multiplication of small amounts of food like when Jesus fed the five thousand. Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. But I would be surprised if God didn't provide for anyone like that, even if it's not something known to other groups of Christians.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 11th 2010, 05:54 PM
I believe that we can see some of the ways this will play out. We in the west, have an idea that this time will be without precedent. We know that it will be to the extent that it will be 'like the world has never known'... but many of our brothers and sisters are living in similar circumstances around the world today....

Remember the Great Tribulation is 'great' because of the scope (global) not necessary the circumstance. We have MUCH to learn from our brothers and sisters around the world who are in chains, suffer, and are being killed for their faith even today.

Pray for the Persecuted Church. For specifics take a look at Voice of the Martyrs (http://persecution.com) web site.

bunnymuldare
Feb 11th 2010, 08:03 PM
This word all can be like you might say to your mother, all the kids are doing it. All is relative. Even when you say the whole world is doing it. The whole world? Every single individual for all time?

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

He causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads...


He's gonna try but that doesn't mean he will succeed. God is still in control.

bunnymuldare
Feb 11th 2010, 08:05 PM
So true Amos. Persecution has always been around.

Beckrl
Feb 13th 2010, 02:04 AM
Bunny is correct abour the "all" it is reference to the category of small and great, rich and poor, free and bond.but isn't to be understood to mean every one for the christain saint would not be included in the "all"

But lets look at the faithful ones in this light and scriptures as a woman which gets feed by God and her seed.


6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.



14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

bunnymuldare
Feb 13th 2010, 02:25 AM
Beckri,
The woman fled, after the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock in 688 AD and was fed during their dispursion for 1260 years, until 1948 when the regathering happened post WWII.
Jesus, quoting Daniel said: When you see standing in the Holy Place 'the abomination that causes desolation' - let the reader understand -- then let those that are in Judea flee to the mountains.: Matthew 24:15.
Flee they did. They went all over Europe, some all the way to Siberia. But now they are back living in relative peace. But when they say peace and safety...
I think Israel is the woman because she is the one who had the man child that made the dragon so angry.

EarlyCall
Feb 13th 2010, 04:27 AM
Only those with the mark will be able to buy and sell, which involves far more than merely food. You won't buy or sell anything. If you stop to consider all that you buy or sell now, well, you will not have that absessed tooth taken care, that broken arm or anything else such as heat in your home or electricity. Then again, you won;t have that home either.

As for God taking care of His own, well, that does not include Christians escaping persecution even unto death. I know some people actually believe God will deliver them from harm during this time, but this is in direct contradiction to His word concerning Christians during the tribulation. furthermore, if one pays attention to all of God's word, they will notice that God's people suffered along with the wicked. Now it is true that the wrath God pours out on the world will not be directly visited upon Christians. But who is sily enough to believe that when one third of the world is destroyed and the people, more than once by that number, that Christians are not impacted negatively by this? On the contrary.

It will be hell on earth for every single person and hell on earth and then some for those that are not God's. It will be a time as never before or never again. God said this. He meant it.

ross3421
Feb 13th 2010, 01:01 PM
This will first happen and probably destroy the majority of the population

Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Those which survive this and then do not accept the beast system set in place will face this

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

So there is a major global catastrope which will preceed the need for the beast and his mark ala second coming.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


So once the chaos has made the world a wilderness there probably will be no food the catch and eat as the beast is going to make it where you need to soley rely on him for survival or death. He will make you come to him and his Babylon to eat and of coure worship him. Though this system will not appear evil rather more like the second coming.

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Re 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,

bunnymuldare
Feb 13th 2010, 04:53 PM
ross,
Matthew 24:7-9
These things are happening and have happened since before Jesus was born. "but the end is not yet." Matthew 24:6

We haven't even finished this part yet: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come..

So what comes after that? "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel stands in the holy place." in other words, the antichrist is revealed. It stands there in Matthew 24, and in 2 Thessalonians 2 "he" sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself to be God, and in Daniel 12:11 it says it will be set up. Well it's been set up for a long time, but for some reason, we don't recognize what it is. People are beginning to get it though. Then shall the end come.

That's when I think the bad stuff comes, But, we have our time frame completely out of whack. For one thing the days are years in Daniel and it's the same way in Revelation. So some of it has already happened a long time ago, and the worst will comelast, but not in 7 years. For instance, the sun will be darkened for two hours. That's two weeks in a day/year scenario. But I digress.

Rev. 17:3 he carried me. He carried John, no one else.
the beast is described in Daniel 7:23, but there again the beast has been around for a long time.

bunnymuldare
Feb 13th 2010, 04:56 PM
Early call,
One third of the population today are Muslims. Then read Ezekiel 38 and 39. No wonder God warns us not to take the mark of the beast.

bunnymuldare
Feb 13th 2010, 05:07 PM
Beckri,
In one place it says the woman is fed for 1260 years. Then in another place it says the woman is nourished for a time and times and half a time. The way I understand this is that the dragon has been chasing Israel around since the Babylonian captivity. That was clear back in 500 BC, Daniel and Ezekiel's day. When you add it all up to the present you've got a time, or 1000 years, and yea even times, 2000 years, and a half of a time, 2500 years. A long long time. But as far as what happens to her after her child was born is a shorter time frame of 1260 years, and thus the discrepancy.

God fed her, he will feed us.

bunnymuldare
Feb 13th 2010, 05:22 PM
Hey have your guys ever heard about the submission tax?

Qur'an 9:29 says: "Fight against those People of the Book [Christians and Jews] who do not follow what Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) acknowledge as the true religion (Islam), nor accept Our law, until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, and feel themselves subdued, being brought low." A second translation reads: "pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection." Islam was a money-making scheme - a Profitable Prophet Plan.

Qur'an 108:3 "For he who insults you (Muhammad) will be cut off." Compare these words with those of Christ. Unjustly rather than justifiably criticized, physically tortured rather than verbally teased, Christ prayed: "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." But the dark spirit of Islam cuts the insulters down - sending them off to burn in hell.

see Prophet of Doom.

ross3421
Feb 14th 2010, 07:26 AM
ross,
Matthew 24:7-9
These things are happening and have happened since before Jesus was born. "but the end is not yet." Matthew 24:6

Sure they have been happening but Matt 24:7 is not events spanning centuries.......these events are purposely triggered to bring an "end of the world" senerio whereby the events of verses 8-15 and the rest take place.

Matt 24:7 the next WW3
There will be a future world war which will appear as the war to end all wars. Those upon the earth will believe the world has come to an end and a return of the Messiah near. However if we continue to read on we see that it is Satan which enters the spot light a false messiah. I believe this war and plagues will be conceived for this very purposed to "appear" that the end is near so Satan can make his appearance as the messiah and world peace. There are those on this earth working toward such a plan however unknowingly they are being used of the Devil.

The interesting thing to see is that Matt 24 shows us two sets of wars and plaques (tribulations). The first which brings about Satan and his kingdom, the second God and his kingdom. Satan being the deceiver which he is will counterfeit the events prior to the coming of Christ so that even the elect would think the second coming is upon us. But the end is not yet......

Most see the events in verse 7 happening over a period of many years like a trend however fail to see there main purpose which is to deceive. The events in verse 7 will create the world as a barren place a wilderness many will die many will struggle to survive as all technology will be reduced to nothing. Though there is hope be it a false hope as those who survive the initial war will need to travel to the land of milk and honey a city which will all to sustain life however one will have to loose his soul to live. Babylon.


Set 1 - wars, plagues, earthquakes, killing off of the enemy, king set up.

Mt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


Set 2 - wars, plagues, earthquakes, killing off of the enemy, king set up.

Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


We haven't even finished this part yet: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come..

Well, I think this is a bit misunderstanding of this verse in general by the prophecy teachers of the day. Actually this verse relates directly to this verse. Thus it is the angel not man whom will fullfill this event.

Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Re 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Well it's been set up for a long time, but for some reason, we don't recognize what it is. People are beginning to get it though. Then shall the end come.

Yes, Satan's government has been in place for a long time but it has yet been established on earth as has the kingdom of God.

Mark

Beckrl
Feb 15th 2010, 02:00 AM
Beckri,
In one place it says the woman is fed for 1260 years. Then in another place it says the woman is nourished for a time and times and half a time. The way I understand this is that the dragon has been chasing Israel around since the Babylonian captivity. That was clear back in 500 BC, Daniel and Ezekiel's day. When you add it all up to the present you've got a time, or 1000 years, and yea even times, 2000 years, and a half of a time, 2500 years. A long long time. But as far as what happens to her after her child was born is a shorter time frame of 1260 years, and thus the discrepancy.

God fed her, he will feed us.

My understanding is that the woman [faithful Israel] bringforth an child [Jesus] and after she bears her child she flees into the wilderness where a place is perpared for her which would be for a time of 1260 days. Which would equal to 30 days, by 12 mouths, by 3.5 which equals to 1260 days.[30 X12 X 3.5=1260]
The way I understand it, Christ wasn't killed by the dragon[Satan] for he give his live for us. Therefore Satan goes after the woman and she flees. The 3.5 years or 1260 days or Time, Times and Half all is telling of the time of the beast and the time of trouble[Tribulation] I see this fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

In 66 a.d. the Jews rebel against Rome and an seige is layed on Jersualem, and many trouble fall upon Jersualem and many people becasue it is the harvest seasons in which all males have to return to Jerusalem for these three feast. At the end of 3.5 years the last of the revolt is overthrown at Masada.

All the while the christains flee into the mountains to ecape the trouble with in the early times in 66.a.d.

bunnymuldare
Feb 16th 2010, 03:47 PM
Beckri,
In Daniel 9 it gives the prophecy of the 70 weeks, predicting Jesus crucifixion to the day. Those weeks are figured out by giving every day one year in actual time. A week equals 7 days equals seven years real time.
Why do we change to every day equals a day in Revelation? Those 1260 days are 1260 years. I'm sure John had read Daniel and Ezekiel when he wrote Revelation. We are just interpreting it as a final seven years when in actuality an over-arching seven fits with actual historical events. We can only understand those numbers within the context of 1948, Israel being regathered, and from 1967, the Six Day War when control of Jerusalem was won back by the Jews. As far as we know there is no historical record for how long Jesus was in Egypt. We do have an historical record for all of the following dates in prophecy. The woman fled for 1260 years in Daniel and in Revelation. See Daniel 12:11-12. What happened on day 1335 days was that Charles Martel of France defeated the Muslims, making it possible for the Jews to live in relative safety in Europe after being chased out of Jerusalem in 688 AD upon the completion of the Dome of the Rock.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Scroll down about 3/4 of the way down the page and it will give you a summary chart.

If you read Revelation 12 in that framework it gives a synopsis of the conflict between good and evil in the Bible.

kay-gee
Feb 16th 2010, 10:17 PM
Now, that is interesting

all the best...

TruthMakesPeace
Jan 30th 2013, 05:05 AM
Credit cards and similar payment methods are the modern day Mark of the Beast. The Governmonster and New World Order can simply shut them off to starve people into submission. They will not be able to buy food or go to a restaurant. If people allow themselves to be electronically chipped, for the convenience of buying and selling, then the account can simply be turned off to control people. The solution is to maintain gold, silver, and barter as valid payment methods, as described in the Bible.

Marco Polo
Jan 30th 2013, 10:04 PM
So the christian people that will not accept the mark of the beast, they will starve to death since it says,no one with the mark of the beast will buy or sell... but with different words.:hmm:

Well since; "To live is Christ, and to die is gain" Phil. 1:21; and God promises pleasures forever more, Psalm 16:11; is starving ur worst fear? God takes care of Christians.

Illuin
Jan 30th 2013, 10:40 PM
Good grief. The Word of God shows us countless times throughout it's pages what this "buying" and "selling" is, and yet this thread is nothing but silly speculations and guesses :rolleyes:.




Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might BUY OR SELL, save he that HAD THE MARK, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."


Buying and selling is a SPIRITUAL concept, and has a SPIRITUAL meaning; and has nothing to do with the principles of commercial trade, food, clothing, etc.


Isaiah said,



Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsts, come to the waters, and he that has no money; come, BUY, and eat; yea, come, BUY wine and BUY milk without money and without price."



It is obvious that Isaiah is not talking about worldly commerce, but about PAYING THE PRICE for the "milk" of God's Word and the "wine" of His abounding life.


Solomon said:



Proverbs 23:23 "BUY THE TRUTH, and SELL IT not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding"



To "buy" the truth means to PAY THE PRICE to embrace and walk in the truth, and I have learned through experience that the "price" of truth is to be willing to "give up" or "sell" an error. The Church at Laodicea boasted that she was "rich and increased with goods and had need of nothing," but had no idea that she was "wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked."

Jesus said,



Revelation 3:18 "I counsel you to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich..."



"SELLING" spiritually typifies the MINISTERING of the truth: the MINISTERING of the things of the Spirit.

"BUYING" typifies the RECEIVING of the truth: the RECEIVING of the things of God.


Those who "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" - who walk "in the Spirit," independent of all the man-made organizations, creeds, methods, and programs of the orthodox church system, WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO LABOR AMONG THE CHURCH SYSTEMS after the truth for which they stand becomes known! (this even includes in their "online" synagogues – where those who stand for truth are often "cast out" if they don't follow the forum's doctrines, traditions, statements of faith, and TOS)

If they refuse to subscribe to the church system's traditional hall-MARK doctrines, they are excluded from carrying on the Father's business with it (i.e. - being prohibited from buying or selling). All who refuse to subscribe to the traditions, dogmas, and defilements of the religious systems are ostracized and accused of being heretics, as were the martyrs of past ages who refused to bow down to the religious, bestial system of this world.



John 16:2"They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you will think that he is offering service to God."




Revelation 13:17 "And that no man might BUY OR SELL, save he that HAD THE MARK, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."



What does 'the oil' for the 'lamps' represent in the "Parable of The 10 Virgins?" Notice what "the wise" virgins told "the foolish" virgins to do in verse 9:



Matthew 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25:3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
Matthew 25:4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Matthew 25:5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'



Pay attention:



Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough oil for us and you; but go rather to those WHO SELL, and BUY for yourselves.'

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to BUY, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut."

shootingdead
Jan 30th 2013, 10:47 PM
good post Illuin

shootingdead
Jan 30th 2013, 10:58 PM
if the governments of the world are going to introduce legislation that you can't buy or sell goods if you don't have a particular mark it is not likely to happen soon because it would take ages to implement, there are no plans to do it and there would be huge opposition.

Vakeros
Jan 31st 2013, 12:24 PM
Beckri,
In Daniel 9 it gives the prophecy of the 70 weeks, predicting Jesus crucifixion to the day. Those weeks are figured out by giving every day one year in actual time. A week equals 7 days equals seven years real time.
Why do we change to every day equals a day in Revelation? Those 1260 days are 1260 years. I'm sure John had read Daniel and Ezekiel when he wrote Revelation. We are just interpreting it as a final seven years when in actuality an over-arching seven fits with actual historical events. We can only understand those numbers within the context of 1948, Israel being regathered, and from 1967, the Six Day War when control of Jerusalem was won back by the Jews. As far as we know there is no historical record for how long Jesus was in Egypt. We do have an historical record for all of the following dates in prophecy. The woman fled for 1260 years in Daniel and in Revelation. See Daniel 12:11-12. What happened on day 1335 days was that Charles Martel of France defeated the Muslims, making it possible for the Jews to live in relative safety in Europe after being chased out of Jerusalem in 688 AD upon the completion of the Dome of the Rock.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Scroll down about 3/4 of the way down the page and it will give you a summary chart.
If you read Revelation 12 in that framework it gives a synopsis of the conflict between good and evil in the Bible.
Checked out the website. Two problems with what is on there is first of all it uses the idea that time, times and half a time as 2,500 years. This is erroneous on three levels.
Firstly the phrase is time = 1, times = 2, and half a time = .5. However the website person only picks up the times and the half and misses the first time.
Secondly, on the website he uses a year as equalling a standard 365 day year in one part to match one date, but then uses a 360 day year for a different date, starting from a different date. That lack of consistency is also bad. Either you use the standard year for both date calculations or you use the prophetic year for both.
Thirdly, somehow they equate a time with 1,000 years. This isn't supported anywhere else in scripture. We do have the word "day" which is a different Greek word which can also mean a season or time which is used in 2 Peter 3. However this is a different word. 3.5 times is 3.5 years. A year isn't 1,000 years in scripture.
Now for the above about 1260 days. It is true that Daniel talks about weeks and in Daniel 9 a "Sabbath week" is the equivalent of 7 years. This is shown clearly through Daniel 12:11. However what should then be noted that it isn't that every day is a year otherwise, the correlation between Dan 9 and 12 is lost. If every day is a year and every year is made of 360 days and everyone of those days is a year etc. There is no end. Therefore we should only change a day for a year if this is shown in context. Jesus rose on the third day. He didn't rise 3 years later. He prophesied this time so we can't say that it is even only true in prophesy.
Also the Jews haven't lived anywhere in comparative safety. They have been abused and persecuted in every country virtually in the world. The new world (including USa, Canada and Australia/New Zealand) may not be included in that to the same degree, but it is still true on a local level wherever they have gone.
Also Daniel 9 doesn't actually lead to the crucifixion, but that is a debate in a different thread - regarding the 7 years of tribulation.

Vakeros
Jan 31st 2013, 12:48 PM
Good grief. The Word of God shows us countless times throughout it's pages what this "buying" and "selling" is, and yet this thread is nothing but silly speculations and guesses :rolleyes:.

Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might BUY OR SELL, save he that HAD THE MARK, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

Buying and selling is a SPIRITUAL concept, and has a SPIRITUAL meaning; and has nothing to do with the principles of commercial trade, food, clothing, etc.
This is a well reasoned answer which unfortunately is erroneous. I say this because we have to look at the context in which it is written. Now at first reading there seems to be something in what is put as Rev 13:11-15 is definitely talking about worshipping the Beast, and those who do not worship the Beast are to be killed.
Yet as we try to apply the above idea as given into this passage we see it doesn't actually fit. What does fit is a much simpler idea. The simple idea is how will the prophet force people to accept the Mark? It will be a Mark which proves your own identity. Rev 13:18 tells us - here is wisdom, what is the number of the Beast, it is the number of man: His number is 666. The Mark is your number, reducing us all to a number and making us less than what God made us. My number and your number will be different, but we will all be numbers. The Beast may well have the number 1, the first to receive the Mark. Those looking for "666" will be disappointed and lost.
Without your ID you won't be able to buy or sell. This is becoming increasingly true. Your number may be in your mobile, on your credit card, your passport etc. But at some point I believe there will be a simplified system to prevent terrorism and fraud. This will be headed up by the Beast. It will also include in it your religious affiliation etc.though I expect at this time this will be severely limited.
Now why do I reject the alternative "spiritual" idea. Though mine is actually just as spiritual, relating as it does to who a man is. I reject it when we think through the implications. If it is spiritual it is saying you can't preach and you can't be part of a church unless you have the Mark. That doesn't affect billions of people, as they are atheist or buddhist or muslim or hindu etc. secondly it has the idea backwards. The Beast doesn't have the ability to sell the truth, yet this passage makes it clear that you can't buy or sell without the Mark. Therefore if it isn't speaking into the reality of things then it is saying, those who wish to preach the truth won't be able to without the Mark. Yet this Mark isn't optional, nor is it limited to preachers or their listeners. It is a Mark that affects them directly and which if they don't receive it will lead to their death. How does it lead to their death? Because without it you won't be able to buy or sell. Now if this were referring to spiritual death, this would be an empty threat. The Beast cannot kill us spiritually, nor can he prevent those who hear the word of God from receiving it, thus it won't lead to death.
Finally, it is God who sells the truth. We don't - if we were to do so we will be judged for this. We are to buy the truth from Him. No one is to be a seller. Therefore this phrase again is defunct, for those who buy the truth from God do not require the Mark and those who sell the truth have the Mark. Yet here is clearly states that in order to buy and sell - implying that this is something we all need to do. This isn't about preaching so I actually think it means as literally written, no buying or selling without the Mark.

Illuin
Jan 31st 2013, 08:20 PM
This is a well reasoned answer which unfortunately is erroneous. I say this because we have to look at the context in which it is written. Now at first reading there seems to be something in what is put as Rev 13:11-15 is definitely talking about worshipping the Beast, and those who do not worship the Beast are to be killed.
Yet as we try to apply the above idea as given into this passage we see it doesn't actually fit. What does fit is a much simpler idea. The simple idea is how will the prophet force people to accept the Mark? It will be a Mark which proves your own identity. Rev 13:18 tells us - here is wisdom, what is the number of the Beast, it is the number of man: His number is 666. The Mark is your number, reducing us all to a number and making us less than what God made us. My number and your number will be different, but we will all be numbers. The Beast may well have the number 1, the first to receive the Mark. Those looking for "666" will be disappointed and lost.
Without your ID you won't be able to buy or sell. This is becoming increasingly true. Your number may be in your mobile, on your credit card, your passport etc. But at some point I believe there will be a simplified system to prevent terrorism and fraud. This will be headed up by the Beast. It will also include in it your religious affiliation etc.though I expect at this time this will be severely limited.
Now why do I reject the alternative "spiritual" idea. Though mine is actually just as spiritual, relating as it does to who a man is. I reject it when we think through the implications. If it is spiritual it is saying you can't preach and you can't be part of a church unless you have the Mark. That doesn't affect billions of people, as they are atheist or buddhist or muslim or hindu etc. secondly it has the idea backwards. The Beast doesn't have the ability to sell the truth, yet this passage makes it clear that you can't buy or sell without the Mark. Therefore if it isn't speaking into the reality of things then it is saying, those who wish to preach the truth won't be able to without the Mark. Yet this Mark isn't optional, nor is it limited to preachers or their listeners. It is a Mark that affects them directly and which if they don't receive it will lead to their death. How does it lead to their death? Because without it you won't be able to buy or sell. Now if this were referring to spiritual death, this would be an empty threat. The Beast cannot kill us spiritually, nor can he prevent those who hear the word of God from receiving it, thus it won't lead to death.
Finally, it is God who sells the truth. We don't - if we were to do so we will be judged for this. We are to buy the truth from Him. No one is to be a seller. Therefore this phrase again is defunct, for those who buy the truth from God do not require the Mark and those who sell the truth have the Mark. Yet here is clearly states that in order to buy and sell - implying that this is something we all need to do. This isn't about preaching so I actually think it means as literally written, no buying or selling without the Mark.


There is a reason you and most Christians do not get this at all:



1 Corinthians 2:14 "But theNATURAL MAN does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."



You're coming at this from the usual "orthodox bias" which only knows Christ "after the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16).You don't know what the beast is, or the IMAGE, or the MAN OF SIN, etc. You're looking at this subject through a "distorted lens," and beginning your premise from a "preconceived bias."


First of all, who is the "man of sin."




2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."



Christians do not know "who" the Temple of God is. The Temple is no longer the Jewish Temple made out of bricks and stone. That "AGE" (which was a copy and a shadow) is over. Paul tells us what the Temple is since the descending of the Parakletos:



1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is HOLY, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of the living God; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"

1 Corinthians 3:9 "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, YOU ARE GOD'S BUILDING."



Peter says the same:



1 Peter 2:4 "You are coming to Christ, who is the LIVING CORNERSTONE of God's temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.
1 Peter 2:5 And YOU ARE LIVING STONES that God is building into his SPIRITUAL TEMPLE."



WE ARE THE TEMPLE, A LIVING SPIRITUAL TEMPLE. The "physical temple" made of bricks and stone is no longer relevant. The TEMPLE is now a SPIRITUAL TEMPLE, and each of us in Christ are LIVING STONES that make up the Temple of God.


Going back to the verses from 2 Thessalonians above:



2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."



If WE ARE THE TEMPLE, then WHO IS IT that SITS AS GOD, IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (that's us), showing HIMSELF to be GOD?

The MAN of sin "exalts HIMSELF" above all ....... so that he, AS GOD, sits IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD." Every reference that Paul made to the "temple of God" reveals that he NEVER applied this term to the Jewish temple! When the Bible speaks of the "literal temple," the Greek word "hieron" is used. On the other hand, the word that Paul used for temple is the Greek word "NAOS" which refers not to the literal temple, but to the Holy Place. NAOS is THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD. And the dwelling place of God is now HIS MANY MEMBERED BODY.


Paul said:



1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is HOLY, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of the living God; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"



So if WE ARE THE TEMPLE, as the Bible states, then who is the "man of sin" sitting in the "TEMPLE of God" showing himself that HE IS GOD? (there aren't any other options here, if you know what I mean ;))


WE ARE THE MAN OF SIN! The MAN OF SIN is THE SELF usurping and exalting HIMSELF AS GOD in the Temple of God, showing HIMSELF that he is God!!! Since WE ARE THE TEMPLE, the man of sin can be no one else.


The "MAN OF SIN" (the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit. He thinks he's a servant of God, but in reality, he's serving the false god of SELF as he resists the Holy Spirit and "opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God, so that HE AS GOD sits in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God."




Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."



It is the number of a MAN, (the number OF 'MAN' more accurately), and the number that represents MAN in the Scriptures is the number 6.

Man was created on the 6th day
6 days for MAN to labor
MAN could sow the land 6 years, but the seventh belonged to the Lord

Goliath; who defied the Lord's army, was 6 cubits tall. His spearhead weighed 600 shekels of iron.
Nebuchadnezzar's great image, set up in the plain of Dura, was 60 by 6 cubits.



The dimensions of Nebuchadnezzar's great image was 10 times the height of Goliath; and with the passage of time, the dimensions "increase" another ten times when we get to Revelation 13:18. This is because:



2 Timothy 3:13 "But evil MEN and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."




The "god" we think (all of us at some point in our lives) we are praising and worshiping is not actually God at all. Our god is THE IMAGE OF SELF! Man creates God in his OWN IMAGE! The IMAGE OF THE BEAST. THE BEAST is MAN!


The beast is you, and the beast is me!



Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves ARE BEASTS."




Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."




This is true with EVERYONE, (i.e. - THE WHOLE WORLD is deceived Revelation 12:9 - that includes YOU AND ME) – until Christ drives all of that out of us and destroys the beast within..... the flesh, Old Adam, the Old MAN, (carnal-minded, natural man) with "a sharp sword which proceeds out of His MOUTH." (Revelation 19:15, 21)



Revelation 19:21 "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of Him who sat on the horse, and all the fowls were filled with THEIR FLESH."



Here is what that "sword" is:



Hebrews 4:12 "For the WORD OF GOD is living and powerful, and sharper than any TWO-EDGED SWORD."




John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS that I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT..."



The "beast" (the man of sin within us) is on an individual level, however, it has happened on a corporate level, within the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" - as man's ceremonies, activities, creeds, rituals, services, rules, regulations, songs, religious works, etc, have usurped and REPLACED the INDWELLING CHRIST; and man's false theories and ideas have replaced God's Truth!

Instead of God being seen in the house of God. We see the image of a false god - MAN, and his false representation, his FALSE IMAGE of God that he prostitutes to the world through his religion.




Revelation 13:11 "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon."




The beast on a corporate level.... the beast "from THE EARTH" - with "two horns like a lamb ['looks like' the Lamb of God - i.e. 'appears' to be Christian], but speaking as a dragon" is really nothing more or less than Satan himself being disguised as an angel of light, and his ministers being disguised as ministers of righteousness" the corporate church = Mystery Babylon - the Great Harlot[/B]]


However, when these words are applied to the corporate church, [I]BUT we exclude ourselves, we have completely missed the message of "keep the things written therein" (Revelation 1:3). The beast is ALL OF US, 'UNTIL' the man of sin within us is dethroned, and Christ takes His rightful place on His Throne.




Vakeros, this is just the FIRST STEP in understanding the image, the beast, Babylon, or ANYTHING in God's Word for that matter. You, and most others, are completely lost because your minds have been indoctrinated with man's leaven, and for this reason, everything you read in God's Word is distorted and biased by the time it "filters" through your indoctrinations and reaches your understanding. That is why the following is probably one of the most critical admonitions in the entire Word of God:



1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the NATURAL MAN does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."


That verse alone explains EVERY ERROR of doctrine that has ever existed! And spiritually speaking, things are at their absolute WORST today. The religious masses are 100% UTTERLY CLUELESS!

RogerW
Jan 31st 2013, 08:34 PM
EXCELLENT commentary once again Illuin! I'd give you more rep points if I didn't have to spread it around a little first.

Thank you so much for the way you always bring things back to spiritual discernment of spiritual truths.

doug3
Jan 31st 2013, 08:54 PM
I believe that we can see some of the ways this will play out. We in the west, have an idea that this time will be without precedent. We know that it will be to the extent that it will be 'like the world has never known'... but many of our brothers and sisters are living in similar circumstances around the world today....

Remember the Great Tribulation is 'great' because of the scope (global) not necessary the circumstance. We have MUCH to learn from our brothers and sisters around the world who are in chains, suffer, and are being killed for their faith even today.

Pray for the Persecuted Church. For specifics take a look at Voice of the Martyrs (http://persecution.com) web site.

Amen!

Isn't this 15 characters rule soooooooooooooooooooooo annoying?

TheDivineWatermark
Jan 31st 2013, 09:44 PM
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Revelation 3:9




"Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" 1 Corinthians 10:32

Illuin
Jan 31st 2013, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Amos_with_goats,

Pray for the Persecuted Church. For specifics take a look at Voice of the Martyrs web site.

This is true, but we have to understand "WHO" it is that "persecutes" the church [the Bride]. Unfortunately, most do not know.



Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her , MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."


Babylon is the false, counterfeit Christian church. This is easy to confirm because God calls HIS PEOPLE out of Babylon. "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE." Today, His people are Christians, and it is they who make up Babylon.

Revelation is addressed to the SEVEN CHURCHES, not to the unbelieving world. The seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3 are the churches of God (the called) They are not pagan churches, neither are they Satan's churches, but they are GOD'S churches. It is none other than Jesus Christ Himself Who



"...walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [which are the seven churches]" (Revelation 2:1).




"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Revelation 1:7, 11, 17, 29, 2:6, 13, 22).


The number "SEVEN" in God's Word represents "COMPLETENESS." So the SEVEN churches in Revelation 2 & 3 represent the Church of God in it's entirety.


Here is essentially Revelation 18:4 in different words:



Matthew 22:14 "Many are called but [B]few are chosen."


Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from "our brethren."


Just as Joseph's brethren were "called" as the patriarchs of Israel (God's people), Joseph was "chosen" from among "the called" and separated from his brethren.


Those "chosen" - who COME OUT of Babylon are actually the "true church" of the living God. They are a peculiar people that no longer follow the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow:



1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath CALLED YOU OUT OF DARKNESS into his marvellous light."




Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."



What happens to HIS PEOPLE who do "come out of her?" Again, the Gospels complement the book of Revelation and vice-versa. This is what happens to those who come out of Babylon:



Matthew 10:17 "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues [churches]."



John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service."



Matthew 10:36 "A man's enemies will be the members of his household."



John 17:14 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world [the worldly religious establishment, Not Pilate and the "world" of Rome]."



Matthew 24:9 "Then shall they [God's own people] deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."




It has always been our own spiritual brothers who persecute us the most. It is always our fellow "called" brothers who hate their "chosen" brothers, just as was the case with Joseph:



Genesis 37:4 "And when his brethren saw that their father loved him [Joseph] more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him."




Isaiah 3:12 "As for MY PEOPLE, children are their oppressors, and WOMEN rule over them."



What is the meaning of: "women" that "rule over God's people" in Isaiah 3:12 above? Believe it or not, many "fundamentalist/evangelical" Christians think this is speaking of the "equal rights movement." They do! I kid you not! :confused

But in truth, The Great Harlot: Babylon is the WOMAN who rules over God's people today.



Revelation 17:3 "And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw A WOMAN sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns."



This WOMAN is religious - she is full of "blasphemous" names, such as: The Nicolaitans; Jezebel; Balaam; The Synagogue of Satan, Satan's Throne, etc. - blasphemous names that are all within the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3 (i.e. - Christianity).




It has been our own spiritual brothers who persecute us the most ever since Cain slew Abel, his own BROTHER - over a "religious" issue! :eek:



All of these have been our EXAMPLES for OUR admonition:



1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now ALL these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."



It was the church of the day who persecuted Jesus and all of the apostles, not the unbelieving world. It was the church who murdered Christ for teaching the truth because it went against their false religious beliefs and traditions, as well as killing His followers. NOT ONCE did Jesus rebuke or condemn ONE non-religious sinner. NOT ONE! Every rebuke and word of condemnation that came from the lips of our Savior was directed at the religious establishment, the church.

Do you think anything has changed today? YES! It has gotten WORSE! As sinful as the Pharisees were, even they didn't preach a gospel of blackmail, and threaten people with the satanic doctrine of eternal torment in hell if they didn't believe in their "IMAGE" of God. Their brain cells were "somewhat" functional and operational, and they at least took the time to LEARN what "some" of the Writings actually said! Not to mention, now the translations themselves are bogus, not that people actually study them anyway :rolleyes:.

Vakeros
Jan 31st 2013, 11:34 PM
You seem to have a strong dislike of any Christians. Do you not know that we are all sinners, saved by the grace of God?
However, to ignore the fact that Satan is real and that he will be cast out of Heaven is to do a disservice to the words of God. There is a real Beast who will be a man. This Beast will claim to be God and will deceive many. This is the spiritual reality you need to grasp. Yes there is false teaching in the church. Sometimes too our worst enemy has been the church - but actually the Devil doesn't care which tool he uses in order to discredit the people of God. He uses Communists and Muslims and people of all faiths and no faith. However there is a time coming when God will say enough and the Devil will be cast out of Heaven and will come to the earth, and woe to the inhabitants.
At the moment the Father of Lies is still based in heaven speaking against God's people, but as Peter reminded us in 2 Peter 3, God doesn't want any to perish.

Illuin
Feb 1st 2013, 03:43 AM
You seem to have a strong dislike of any Christians. Do you not know that we are all sinners, saved by the grace of God?
However, to ignore the fact that Satan is real and that he will be cast out of Heaven is to do a disservice to the words of God. There is a real Beast who will be a man. This Beast will claim to be God and will deceive many. This is the spiritual reality you need to grasp. Yes there is false teaching in the church. Sometimes too our worst enemy has been the church - but actually the Devil doesn't care which tool he uses in order to discredit the people of God. He uses Communists and Muslims and people of all faiths and no faith. However there is a time coming when God will say enough and the Devil will be cast out of Heaven and will come to the earth, and woe to the inhabitants.
At the moment the Father of Lies is still based in heaven speaking against God's people, but as Peter reminded us in 2 Peter 3, God doesn't want any to perish.


Give me a break with that crap Vakeros. How ridiculous, and dishonest. Do you think this is some kind of "religious game" we're all living here in this life - we win, you lose - we go to heaven - you go to hell, ha ha :rolleyes:. Please! It's THE DOCTRINES - NOT THE PEOPLE! Did you not read my previous post on "the man of sin" - who is ALL OF US who usurp the leading of the indwelling Spirit within THE TEMPLE (which WE ARE) - until Christ dethrones our carnal, old Adamic SELVES with the "Brightness of His Coming" in the Spirit. Of course we are all sinners; and you are being disingenuous branding me as someone who dislikes Christians (especially considering the fact that I am one). I wouldn't be in here trying to teach people God's beautiful truth if I did not love them from the bottom of my heart! I wouldn't bother. It's our duty to let our light shine into the darkness of falsehoods and lies, and "right" the "wrongs" that have been said about our Father; who IS LOVE, not a cosmic psychopath who tortures His creatures for eternity! We are to protect God's children from the doctrines of demons that pervade organized religion - which IS BABYLON! Wake up Vakeros, and quit playing games.

Vakeros
Feb 1st 2013, 06:00 AM
No game, but you just put that we are the church! Whose doctrines am I meant to be following? If I chose a methodology of interpreting scripture through a lensed where words have meaning within a context and that they can be understood logically and consistently then why do you accuse me, at least indirectly of following some church doctrine?
I believe most sincerely in a spiritual realm. I also understand that the physical affects the spiritual and the spiritual affects the physical. I also know God's spirit in me.
I also know that it wasn't just the Jews or as you put it the church that crucified Jesus. He hung on that cross and died for me! I put Him there!
Yes organised religion has a lot to answer for especially that done in His name. Babylon though is hated by the Beast. That strongly suggests Babylon isn't the false church. A false church would accept the Beast and teach us to follow it. I used to think in such terms until I applied a bit of logic mixed in with discernment. The Beast, like other antichrists will almost certainly come out from amongst the church. The Beast though is NOT Babylon.

Athanasius
Feb 1st 2013, 01:04 PM
This is true, but we have to understand "WHO" it is that "persecutes" the church [the Bride]. Unfortunately, most do not know.



Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her , MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."


Babylon is the false, counterfeit Christian church. This is easy to confirm because God calls HIS PEOPLE out of Babylon. "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE." Today, His people are Christians, and it is they who make up Babylon.

Revelation is addressed to the SEVEN CHURCHES, not to the unbelieving world. The seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3 are the churches of God (the called) They are not pagan churches, neither are they Satan's churches, but they are GOD'S churches. It is none other than Jesus Christ Himself Who



"...walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [which are the seven churches]" (Revelation 2:1).




"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Revelation 1:7, 11, 17, 29, 2:6, 13, 22).


The number "SEVEN" in God's Word represents "COMPLETENESS." So the SEVEN churches in Revelation 2 & 3 represent the Church of God in it's entirety.


Here is essentially Revelation 18:4 in different words:



Matthew 22:14 "Many are called but [B]few are chosen."


Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from "our brethren."


Just as Joseph's brethren were "called" as the patriarchs of Israel (God's people), Joseph was "chosen" from among "the called" and separated from his brethren.


Those "chosen" - who COME OUT of Babylon are actually the "true church" of the living God. They are a peculiar people that no longer follow the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow:



1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath CALLED YOU OUT OF DARKNESS into his marvellous light."




Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."



What happens to HIS PEOPLE who do "come out of her?" Again, the Gospels complement the book of Revelation and vice-versa. This is what happens to those who come out of Babylon:



Matthew 10:17 "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues [churches]."



John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service."



Matthew 10:36 "A man's enemies will be the members of his household."



John 17:14 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world [the worldly religious establishment, Not Pilate and the "world" of Rome]."



Matthew 24:9 "Then shall they [God's own people] deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."




It has always been our own spiritual brothers who persecute us the most. It is always our fellow "called" brothers who hate their "chosen" brothers, just as was the case with Joseph:



Genesis 37:4 "And when his brethren saw that their father loved him [Joseph] more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him."




Isaiah 3:12 "As for MY PEOPLE, children are their oppressors, and WOMEN rule over them."



What is the meaning of: "women" that "rule over God's people" in Isaiah 3:12 above? Believe it or not, many "fundamentalist/evangelical" Christians think this is speaking of the "equal rights movement." They do! I kid you not! :confused

But in truth, The Great Harlot: Babylon is the WOMAN who rules over God's people today.



Revelation 17:3 "And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw A WOMAN sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns."



This WOMAN is religious - she is full of "blasphemous" names, such as: The Nicolaitans; Jezebel; Balaam; The Synagogue of Satan, Satan's Throne, etc. - blasphemous names that are all within the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3 (i.e. - Christianity).




It has been our own spiritual brothers who persecute us the most ever since Cain slew Abel, his own BROTHER - over a "religious" issue! :eek:



All of these have been our EXAMPLES for OUR admonition:



1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now ALL these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."



It was the church of the day who persecuted Jesus and all of the apostles, not the unbelieving world. It was the church who murdered Christ for teaching the truth because it went against their false religious beliefs and traditions, as well as killing His followers. NOT ONCE did Jesus rebuke or condemn ONE non-religious sinner. NOT ONE! Every rebuke and word of condemnation that came from the lips of our Savior was directed at the religious establishment, the church.

Do you think anything has changed today? YES! It has gotten WORSE! As sinful as the Pharisees were, even they didn't preach a gospel of blackmail, and threaten people with the satanic doctrine of eternal torment in hell if they didn't believe in their "IMAGE" of God. Their brain cells were "somewhat" functional and operational, and they at least took the time to LEARN what "some" of the Writings actually said! Not to mention, now the translations themselves are bogus, not that people actually study them anyway :rolleyes:.

Really ?

Warrior4God
Feb 1st 2013, 08:34 PM
Roelof said God would protect His children until the rapture. David disagreed and said God would protect His children through the tribulation as well. For post-trib, there should be no disagreement that God will protect His children until the rapture (which would be after the tribulation). Do I have to spell it ALL out for you;)?

Well, for various reasons, various people have differing views on when the Rapture happens. Some people believe it's pre-tribulation. Some people believe it's mid-tribulation. Finally, some people believe it's post-tribulation. We don't all agree on when it happens. I personally am not sure. I honestly haven't studied it alot to have arrived at a conclusion yet. :dunno:

Balabusha
Feb 2nd 2013, 05:21 AM
Babylon is no "mystery" religion.
It is more of a mystery how people come up with such speculation when it is so clear in the bible..lets take a look

Most people read "reins over the whole earth" and conclude that the "great city" must be Rome, New York or what ever great city pops up.
Lets let scripture interpret scripture.
In the Old Covenant God ruled from Jerusalem
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem... (Joel 3:16)
Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. (Ps. 135.21)
Jesus warned not to swear by Jerusalem for it is the city of the great king
...or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. Matthew 5:35
King Cyrus referred to Jerusalem as Gods's house
2 Chronicles 36:23
“This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah.
The Old Testament refers to Jerusalem as a great city
Now the city [was] large and great... (Neh. 7:4)
Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city? (Jer. 22:8)
How doth the city sit solitary, [that was] full of people! [how] is she become as a widow! she [that was] great among the nations... (Lam. 1:1)
In Revelations John identifies the great city as the place where Jesus was crucified
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)
-Jesus was not crucified in Rome,Babylon or New York..Jerusalem is very clearly identified, Jerusalem is called Babylon because she is now an enemy of God.
In Isaiah 1:9-10, God calls Jerusalem `Sodom and Gomorrah' because of her sinfulness.
John changes the calling the Old Covenant Jerusalem as "great" and calls the New Jerusalem as great.
...and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God... (Rev. 21:10)

Compare the words of Revelation to Jesus's rebuke of the Scribes and Pharisees Matthew 23
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus... (Rev. 17:6)
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Rev. 18:24)
Compare to
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (Matthew 23:34-35)

Balabusha
Feb 2nd 2013, 06:12 AM
Still not convinced..lets look deeper

The harlot is filled with the blood of the saints according to Revelation 17:6, 16:6, and 18:21&24. Throughout the book of Acts, Jerusalem is portrayed as the persecutor of Christianity.
Acts 7:51-52 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers."
Revelation 17
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

babylon the great

the mother of prostitutes

and of the abominations of the earth.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

-again read Matthew 23
-Notice the colors highlighted..these are the high Priests colors clearly prescribed in Exodus 28.The High Priest also wore a tiara on his forehead that said, "holiness unto the Lord" (Exodus 28:36-38). The words on the forehead of the harlot of Revelation 17 are a parody of these words.

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come." 16 "Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?" 19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste. 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;

-same priestly colors as Revelation 17 and Exodus 28
The parallels of the first destruction are very distinct, The Old Testament refers to Israel as a "harlot many times
-Jeremiah refers to Israel with the priestly colors and as a "harlot"
Jere 4:27 For thus says the Lord, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction. 28 "For this the earth shall mourn, And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it." 29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees; They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, And no man dwells in them. 30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful; [Your] lovers despise you; They seek your life. 31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, The cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, Stretching out her hands, [saying,] "Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers."

compare this to
Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.. 17:4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality... 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Isai 51:17 Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord's hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs.

Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

John introduces the harlot
Revelation 17:1
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,"
John introduces the bride..notice this is a negative mirror image
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

shootingdead
Feb 2nd 2013, 12:45 PM
compare this to
Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.. 17:4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality... 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

John introduces the harlot
Revelation 17:1
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,"
John introduces the bride..notice this is a negative mirror image
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."hello Karaite are you indicating that these things in Revelation happened in the first century? i am leaning that way.

RogerW
Feb 2nd 2013, 02:00 PM
Still not convinced..lets look deeper

The harlot is filled with the blood of the saints according to Revelation 17:6, 16:6, and 18:21&24. Throughout the book of Acts, Jerusalem is portrayed as the persecutor of Christianity.
Acts 7:51-52 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers."
Revelation 17
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

babylon the great

the mother of prostitutes

and of the abominations of the earth.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

-again read Matthew 23
-Notice the colors highlighted..these are the high Priests colors clearly prescribed in Exodus 28.The High Priest also wore a tiara on his forehead that said, "holiness unto the Lord" (Exodus 28:36-38). The words on the forehead of the harlot of Revelation 17 are a parody of these words.

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come." 16 "Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?" 19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste. 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;

-same priestly colors as Revelation 17 and Exodus 28
The parallels of the first destruction are very distinct, The Old Testament refers to Israel as a "harlot many times
-Jeremiah refers to Israel with the priestly colors and as a "harlot"
Jere 4:27 For thus says the Lord, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction. 28 "For this the earth shall mourn, And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it." 29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees; They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, And no man dwells in them. 30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful; [Your] lovers despise you; They seek your life. 31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, The cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, Stretching out her hands, [saying,] "Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers."

compare this to
Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.. 17:4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality... 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Isai 51:17 Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord's hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs.

Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

John introduces the harlot
Revelation 17:1
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,"
John introduces the bride..notice this is a negative mirror image
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

Yes, and Jerusalem, the Holy City and the Holy Temple are symbolic of the church now! Jerusalem was the city of God, and the Temple was where God walked in the midst with His people. Now His Kingdom is not confined to one city, and His people are the temple. Just as Jerusalem and the temple became an abomination that made them desolate, so too the church had better take notice, for the same thing happens to churches that refuse to submit and repent, so they too become the abomination, Babylon, the great whore!

philer
Feb 3rd 2013, 05:06 PM
This of course has one other factor that will bring believers to persecution,if they don't worship the image of the beast they will be killed if homelessness and starvation doesn't get them first.

BroRog
Feb 3rd 2013, 09:43 PM
There is a reason you and most Christians do not get this at all:



1 Corinthians 2:14 "But theNATURAL MAN does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."



You're coming at this from the usual "orthodox bias" which only knows Christ "after the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16).You don't know what the beast is, or the IMAGE, or the MAN OF SIN, etc. You're looking at this subject through a "distorted lens," and beginning your premise from a "preconceived bias."


First of all, who is the "man of sin."




2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."



Christians do not know "who" the Temple of God is. The Temple is no longer the Jewish Temple made out of bricks and stone. That "AGE" (which was a copy and a shadow) is over. Paul tells us what the Temple is since the descending of the Parakletos:



1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is HOLY, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of the living God; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"

1 Corinthians 3:9 "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, YOU ARE GOD'S BUILDING."



Peter says the same:



1 Peter 2:4 "You are coming to Christ, who is the LIVING CORNERSTONE of God's temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.
1 Peter 2:5 And YOU ARE LIVING STONES that God is building into his SPIRITUAL TEMPLE."



WE ARE THE TEMPLE, A LIVING SPIRITUAL TEMPLE. The "physical temple" made of bricks and stone is no longer relevant. The TEMPLE is now a SPIRITUAL TEMPLE, and each of us in Christ are LIVING STONES that make up the Temple of God.


Going back to the verses from 2 Thessalonians above:



2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."



If WE ARE THE TEMPLE, then WHO IS IT that SITS AS GOD, IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (that's us), showing HIMSELF to be GOD?

The MAN of sin "exalts HIMSELF" above all ....... so that he, AS GOD, sits IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD." Every reference that Paul made to the "temple of God" reveals that he NEVER applied this term to the Jewish temple! When the Bible speaks of the "literal temple," the Greek word "hieron" is used. On the other hand, the word that Paul used for temple is the Greek word "NAOS" which refers not to the literal temple, but to the Holy Place. NAOS is THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD. And the dwelling place of God is now HIS MANY MEMBERED BODY.


Paul said:



1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is HOLY, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of the living God; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"



So if WE ARE THE TEMPLE, as the Bible states, then who is the "man of sin" sitting in the "TEMPLE of God" showing himself that HE IS GOD? (there aren't any other options here, if you know what I mean ;))


WE ARE THE MAN OF SIN! The MAN OF SIN is THE SELF usurping and exalting HIMSELF AS GOD in the Temple of God, showing HIMSELF that he is God!!! Since WE ARE THE TEMPLE, the man of sin can be no one else.


The "MAN OF SIN" (the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit. He thinks he's a servant of God, but in reality, he's serving the false god of SELF as he resists the Holy Spirit and "opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God, so that HE AS GOD sits in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God."




Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."



It is the number of a MAN, (the number OF 'MAN' more accurately), and the number that represents MAN in the Scriptures is the number 6.

Man was created on the 6th day
6 days for MAN to labor
MAN could sow the land 6 years, but the seventh belonged to the Lord

Goliath; who defied the Lord's army, was 6 cubits tall. His spearhead weighed 600 shekels of iron.
Nebuchadnezzar's great image, set up in the plain of Dura, was 60 by 6 cubits.



The dimensions of Nebuchadnezzar's great image was 10 times the height of Goliath; and with the passage of time, the dimensions "increase" another ten times when we get to Revelation 13:18. This is because:



2 Timothy 3:13 "But evil MEN and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."




The "god" we think (all of us at some point in our lives) we are praising and worshiping is not actually God at all. Our god is THE IMAGE OF SELF! Man creates God in his OWN IMAGE! The IMAGE OF THE BEAST. THE BEAST is MAN!


The beast is you, and the beast is me!



Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves ARE BEASTS."




Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."




This is true with EVERYONE, (i.e. - THE WHOLE WORLD is deceived Revelation 12:9 - that includes YOU AND ME) – until Christ drives all of that out of us and destroys the beast within..... the flesh, Old Adam, the Old MAN, (carnal-minded, natural man) with "a sharp sword which proceeds out of His MOUTH." (Revelation 19:15, 21)



Revelation 19:21 "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of Him who sat on the horse, and all the fowls were filled with THEIR FLESH."



Here is what that "sword" is:



Hebrews 4:12 "For the WORD OF GOD is living and powerful, and sharper than any TWO-EDGED SWORD."




John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS that I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT..."



The "beast" (the man of sin within us) is on an individual level, however, it has happened on a corporate level, within the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" - as man's ceremonies, activities, creeds, rituals, services, rules, regulations, songs, religious works, etc, have usurped and REPLACED the INDWELLING CHRIST; and man's false theories and ideas have replaced God's Truth!

Instead of God being seen in the house of God. We see the image of a false god - MAN, and his false representation, his FALSE IMAGE of God that he prostitutes to the world through his religion.




Revelation 13:11 "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon."




The beast on a corporate level.... the beast "from THE EARTH" - with "two horns like a lamb ['looks like' the Lamb of God - i.e. 'appears' to be Christian], but speaking as a dragon" is really nothing more or less than Satan himself being disguised as an angel of light, and his ministers being disguised as ministers of righteousness" the corporate church = Mystery Babylon - the Great Harlot[/B]]


However, when these words are applied to the corporate church, [I]BUT we exclude ourselves, we have completely missed the message of "keep the things written therein" (Revelation 1:3). The beast is ALL OF US, 'UNTIL' the man of sin within us is dethroned, and Christ takes His rightful place on His Throne.




Vakeros, this is just the FIRST STEP in understanding the image, the beast, Babylon, or ANYTHING in God's Word for that matter. You, and most others, are completely lost because your minds have been indoctrinated with man's leaven, and for this reason, everything you read in God's Word is distorted and biased by the time it "filters" through your indoctrinations and reaches your understanding. That is why the following is probably one of the most critical admonitions in the entire Word of God:



1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the NATURAL MAN does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."


That verse alone explains EVERY ERROR of doctrine that has ever existed! And spiritually speaking, things are at their absolute WORST today. The religious masses are 100% UTTERLY CLUELESS!
Your analysis has two flaws. First, while the apostles refer to the body of Christ as "a temple", the body of Christ has no central point on earth in which such a man of sin might stand to announce himself. And contrary to the Roman Catholic Church, there is no official ecclesiastical body into which such a man might infiltrate. Second, the central point of the apostles relies on the fact that the body of Christ consists of believers who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 1Corinthians 3:16 is one example. The body of Christ is the temple of God because God dwells there. No man of sin can dwell there. Only the Holy Spirit, who can be in every member of the Body of Christ can dwell there. The idea that the man of sin stands in the body of Christ is absurd.

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 01:33 AM
The idea that the man of sin stands in the body of Christ is absurd.

How can you say that in light of the following passages of Scripture? Christ is the head of the body, the church; which body Christians are. However the church in the world is not pure and undefiled, and has in her both believers and unbelievers. So it is obvious that the man of sin not only can but indeed does stand within the body of Christ.

Col*1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1Co*12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co*12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co*12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co*12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co*12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co*12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co*12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co*12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co*12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co*12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co*12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co*12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co*12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co*12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co*12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co*12:27 ¶ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ac*20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Ac*20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ac*20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Mt*7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

2Pe*2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe*2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

1Jo*2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo*2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 07:25 AM
How can you say that in light of the following passages of Scripture? Christ is the head of the body, the church; which body Christians are. However the church in the world is not pure and undefiled, and has in her both believers and unbelievers. So it is obvious that the man of sin not only can but indeed does stand within the body of Christ.No, not really. Your point is using terms like "church" and body of Christ very loosely, too loosely to make any kind of definitive statement. Illuin argued that the man of sin would stand in the body of Christ, claiming to be God, citing verses that the true temple of God was the church. This is absurd, as I said before, because the "temple" of which the Apostles speak consists of believers who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Do you understand why it's absurd to suggest that the man of sin would "stand" there?

Balabusha
Feb 4th 2013, 07:40 AM
Yes, and Jerusalem, the Holy City and the Holy Temple are symbolic of the church now! Jerusalem was the city of God, and the Temple was where God walked in the midst with His people. Now His Kingdom is not confined to one city, and His people are the temple. Just as Jerusalem and the temple became an abomination that made them desolate, so too the church had better take notice, for the same thing happens to churches that refuse to submit and repent, so they too become the abomination, Babylon, the great whore!

The abomination that causes desolation was never in reference to the temple in AD 70, as it was already desolate. It also is not in reference to a 21 century temple as it would be equally desolate. You can't have an abomination in which desolation can happen if God's glory is not present.
-The abomination that causes desolation was not in reference to the church either..this would be eisegesis

Balabusha
Feb 4th 2013, 07:54 AM
hello Karaite are you indicating that these things in Revelation happened in the first century? i am leaning that way.

Hi shooting dead
For sure I do believe that the events in Revelation are first century. Babylon was Old Covenant Israel destroyed by the wrath of God. This was fulfillment of Old Testament prophesy

Vakeros
Feb 4th 2013, 10:16 AM
Hi shooting dead
For sure I do believe that the events in Revelation are first century. Babylon was Old Covenant Israel destroyed by the wrath of God. This was fulfillment of Old Testament prophesy
I agree with you that the destruction of Jerusalem was as per Jesus words about God's wrath and why was related to the killing of prophets etc. but Jesus had other words which talk about a future time. Also Revelation doesn't reference those prophets. That punishment on this world has been given. Revelation lists a different group of people. Those saints of the NC and NOT the OC. Thus what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD is a type for what will happen during the great tribulation and God's wrath to come.

T W Taylor
Feb 4th 2013, 04:52 PM
how will the prophet force people to accept the Mark?

Hello Vakeros,

People will not be forced to take the mark of the beast. People have lined up to take it, thinking they do it for God. They are deceived into taking it.

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

T W Taylor
Feb 4th 2013, 05:08 PM
Sounds to me like there will be nothing to buy and sell. The people with the “Mark” will trade with each other. Like if you are a member of a church and there was nothing to buy to eat and you had some extra beans, you would trade them with someone else from your church, not to a stranger.

Eze 7:19 'They will throw their silver into the streets, And their gold will be like refuse; Their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them In the day of the wrath of the Lord; They will not satisfy their souls, Nor fill their stomachs, Because it became their stumbling block of iniquity.

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 05:27 PM
No, not really. Your point is using terms like "church" and body of Christ very loosely, too loosely to make any kind of definitive statement. Illuin argued that the man of sin would stand in the body of Christ, claiming to be God, citing verses that the true temple of God was the church. This is absurd, as I said before, because the "temple" of which the Apostles speak consists of believers who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Do you understand why it's absurd to suggest that the man of sin would "stand" there?

The man of sin does stand (having authority) within the body of Christ, which very clearly is reference to the True Church. The passages that I cite above clearly show us how wolves enter in not sparing the flock, false prophets looking like they too belong to the True Church; i.e. the body of Christ. False teachers too and antichrists, who left unchecked will bring the body; i.e. True Church to abomination that makes her desolate. That does not mean that God does not preserve His elect within. Just as the Temple in Jerusalem had become abomination unto God, and made desolate through her abomination. Again, even there we find within this abominable holy place, God preserving a remnant according to election of grace. If we don't believe the Church body, consisting of many members, some true and some false can be turned into an abomination that makes altogether desolate, we need only look to Jerusalem and the Temple that was as our example of what becomes of any holy place/person claiming to be True, but outwardly a place of abomination that will be made desolate. Why do you think that Christ and His Apostles do not cease to warn us repeatedly throughout the Scriptures if the Church on earth, having both true and false in her, could not become exactly like the examples in the Old Covenant body, a place of total abomination unto God?

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 05:31 PM
The abomination that causes desolation was never in reference to the temple in AD 70, as it was already desolate.

Exactly!


It also is not in reference to a 21 century temple as it would be equally desolate. You can't have an abomination in which desolation can happen if God's glory is not present.
-The abomination that causes desolation was not in reference to the church either..this would be eisegesis

Not reference to a 21th century church only, but warning given to the Church on earth throughout the whole gospel age. Which is exactly what "this generation" is referring to.

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 05:45 PM
Hi shooting dead
For sure I do believe that the events in Revelation are first century. Babylon was Old Covenant Israel destroyed by the wrath of God. This was fulfillment of Old Testament prophesy

It makes no sense according to the urgency "at hand", that this is reference to things that would not come to pass for another 40 years. Nor does it make sense that this is speaking of things that will not come until the end or near end of time. When for instance Christ says, "know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." We don't read this as something that is not "now" or right then coming to pass. "At hand" means that it is approaching, or ready, near. Wherever this phrase is found in the New Testament it always implies immediacy. We don't read these words and assume Christ is telling us the kingdom will not come for another 40 to 2000 years. Scripture tells us that Christ came in His kingdom "I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." Therefore the nearness of the kingdom is that the kingdom has come! So very clearly however one chooses to interpret this prophecy he/she MUST not force fulfillment into the first century or the last century, but realize that Christ is speaking of things that pertain to this entire age; the age of the kingdom; the age of the gospel; the age of the church on earth.

Vakeros
Feb 4th 2013, 06:41 PM
And so you fall into the error that Peter had to deal with in 2 Peter 3. Do you not know that for the Lord a day is like a thousand years?

Athanasius
Feb 4th 2013, 06:42 PM
And so you fall into the error that Peter had to deal with in 2 Peter 3. Do you not know that for the Lord a day is like a thousand years?

That is a simile in the context of God's promises, not a factual description that a day really is a thousand years for God (or vice-versa).

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 07:53 PM
Hello Vakeros,

People will not be forced to take the mark of the beast. People have lined up to take it, thinking they do it for God. They are deceived into taking it.

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The mark of the beast, like the mark of Christ refers to ownership. The reason the mark is found in his forehead or in his hand refers to the mind, and our labors. If our mind and works are guided by the beast (his mark), then the beast is the owner. But if we have the mark of Christ; our mind and labors are guided by Christ in us (His mark), then Christ is our owner. Buying and selling, as has already been established has to do with sending the gospel.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 09:19 PM
The man of sin does stand (having authority) within the body of Christ, which very clearly is reference to the True Church. The passages that I cite above clearly show us how wolves enter in not sparing the flock, false prophets looking like they too belong to the True Church; i.e. the body of Christ.Why the need to say "true" church? Whether you know it or not, your view depends on an equivocation of the term "church". The only way your view makes sense is if the church in which the man of sin stands, isn't the "true" church. And that's the point. There is NO way for the man of sin to stand in the true church.

Vakeros
Feb 4th 2013, 10:14 PM
That is a simile in the context of God's promises, not a factual description that a day really is a thousand years for God (or vice-versa).

Indeed, but the error Peter was dealing with was people saying, this is the last days, how come they haven't come yet? Peter pointed out that God will always fulfil His word, but what for us is soon and what for Him is soon isn't always the same. RogerW's argument doesn't hold true when looked at in this way. Which was exactly Peter's point. So RogerW is making the same error as the scoffers.

Vakeros
Feb 4th 2013, 10:20 PM
The mark of the beast, like the mark of Christ refers to ownership. The reason the mark is found in his forehead or in his hand refers to the mind, and our labors. If our mind and works are guided by the beast (his mark), then the beast is the owner. But if we have the mark of Christ; our mind and labors are guided by Christ in us (His mark), then Christ is our owner. Buying and selling, as has already been established has to do with sending the gospel.

Actually it hasn't been established it has been stated and then rebuffed as being completely wrong. You don't sell the Gospel, or di you? False teachers may do, but that is irrelevant to the Mark. There will be no requirement to get a Mark in order to preach, nor trio hear a sermon. If you don't worship the Beast it is a death sentence. People who are deceived will gladly receive the Mark. Others will receive it in fear, knowing that otherwise and until they do they will be unable to buy out sell. This is known as the carrot and stick method. The carrot is his deceptions, the stick is the consequences of refusing the Mark.

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 10:33 PM
Why the need to say "true" church? Whether you know it or not, your view depends on an equivocation of the term "church". The only way your view makes sense is if the church in which the man of sin stands, isn't the "true" church. And that's the point. There is NO way for the man of sin to stand in the true church.

I just don't find any of the seven Churches of the Revelation or any Church Paul sent his epistles to ever being referenced as a false church. They all have problems, but all are still called The Church. Your argument might have merit if none of these Churches had error, or imperfection. But the simple truth is that in this world there is The Church of the Living God, and none of them have ever been pure and undefiled, and never will be until Christ comes again. Consider the church in Smyrna for example. John's epistle was addressed to Smyrna a Church of Christ, but this particular Church is likened to "the synagogue of Satan" through blasphemy. Ths is not a false church it is a true Church being polluted and threatened to become desolate. How about the Church at Pergamos that dwells where Satan's seat is. True Churches all, yet they fall because they do not hold on to that which is pure, so they are all in danger of being overcome through abomination unless they repent and hold fast to truth.

Vakeros
Feb 4th 2013, 10:48 PM
I just don't find any of the seven Churches of the Revelation or any Church Paul sent his epistles to ever being referenced as a false church. They all have problems, but all are still called The Church. Your argument might have merit if none of these Churches had error, or imperfection. But the simple truth is that in this world there is The Church of the Living God, and none of them have ever been pure and undefiled, and never will be until Christ comes again. Consider the church in Smyrna for example. John's epistle was addressed to Smyrna a Church of Christ, but this particular Church is likened to "the synagogue of Satan" through blasphemy. Ths is not a false church it is a true Church being polluted and threatened to become desolate. How about the Church at Pergamos that dwells where Satan's seat is. True Churches all, yet they fall because they do not hold on to that which is pure, so they are all in danger of being overcome through abomination unless they repent and hold fast to truth.

Also none of them were called the temple of God. This phrase is only used for holy, God dwelt places. The true temple of God, the True church as you seem to call it will NOT be a place for the man of sin. It will be a deception, a false temple of God where the man of sun will be revealed. If it were the true temple of God then none would be the man of sin. This is the paradox you can't resolve with your idea. Thus the temple of God is a place that is recognised as being the temple of God, but in reality isn't. Therefore nothing to do with the true church or the true temple of God. Therefore the most logical place is the temple in Jerusalem. You may argue for somewhere like St Peter's in Rome, or possibly Templum Domini.
The true temple of God by very nature being true cannot be the place. Only by not being the true temple of God is it possible. Thus we reject an interpretation of within a person and the true church.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 12:00 AM
Also none of them were called the temple of God. This phrase is only used for holy, God dwelt places. The true temple of God, the True church as you seem to call it will NOT be a place for the man of sin. It will be a deception, a false temple of God where the man of sun will be revealed. If it were the true temple of God then none would be the man of sin. This is the paradox you can't resolve with your idea. Thus the temple of God is a place that is recognised as being the temple of God, but in reality isn't. Therefore nothing to do with the true church or the true temple of God. Therefore the most logical place is the temple in Jerusalem. You may argue for somewhere like St Peter's in Rome, or possibly Templum Domini.
The true temple of God by very nature being true cannot be the place. Only by not being the true temple of God is it possible. Thus we reject an interpretation of within a person and the true church.

The place where abomination is known to exist where it should not is called the "holy place" (Mt 24:15). Christians are called, church (ekklesia; assembly; church; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both). Christians are called the temple of God, and we're shown in 1Co 3:17 that the temple can be defiled.

1Co*3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co*3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But we as a body are also the Church. Christ is the Head of this body, but nowhere does Scripture show us that this body, temple of the Holy Spirit, His Church (holy place) cannot become defiled. In fact we have an overwhelming abundance of Scripture telling us the exact opposite. When this happens completely in Christ's Church on earth Revelation tells us the candlestick (the Light of Christ) is removed. He does not say they cease to be Church, but they certainly do become a place without Light or places of utter darkness. And the saddest part of all is so often this happens to His Church in this world, and those in attendance don't even notice the darkness.

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 02:29 AM
I just don't find any of the seven Churches of the Revelation or any Church Paul sent his epistles to ever being referenced as a false church.Don't forget the topic at hand. We aren't talking about churches, we are talking about the body of Christ, which the apostles metaphorically called the temple. The claim is made that the man of sin will enter THAT temple, which is an absurd idea.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 02:48 AM
Don't forget the topic at hand. We aren't talking about churches, we are talking about the body of Christ, which the apostles metaphorically called the temple. The claim is made that the man of sin will enter THAT temple, which is an absurd idea.

The body of Christ = the Church. Where is this man of sin, and son of perdition who as God sits in the temple of God, yet opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God?

2Th*1:1 ¶ Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th*1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th*2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th*2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Re*13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Re*13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 03:49 AM
The body of Christ = the Church. Where is this man of sin, and son of perdition who as God sits in the temple of God, yet opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God?I have no idea.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 04:40 AM
I have no idea.

Then read the passage because clearly he is in the temple of God!

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 05:36 AM
Then read the passage because clearly he is in the temple of God!Of course. But we are discussing the claim that the man of sin sits in the body of Christ, which is absurd for the reasons I already outlined.

Vakeros
Feb 5th 2013, 07:25 AM
RogerW you make a bad mistake which people often do. This mistake is to substitute a word with a phrase even though the phrase has a specific scope whereas the word has a wider application, thus you widen the phrase to greater than it should be.
For example The apostle Peter is a righteous man, so all righteous men are Peter. This is laughable and wing, yet that is exactly what you do with This holy church is the temple of God, so all churches are temples of God. In your own quote Paul doesn't write to the "temple of God" of the Thessalonians.Paul calls them a church. In the later letter he doesn't say the man of sin will sit in the church, which is what you are saying he wrote. No he deliberately uses the phrase temple of God.
Terry Pratchett uses similar reasoning to yours by saying something like: knowledge = power = energy = mass = space thus knowledge equals space.
Please don't confuse the two. Also ask yourself what is the Most Holy Place in Matt 24:15? According to what you have put, this can only be heaven. When Jesus was talking about a specific place on earth!

Balabusha
Feb 5th 2013, 07:29 AM
Exactly!



Not reference to a 21th century church only, but warning given to the Church on earth throughout the whole gospel age. Which is exactly what "this generation" is referring to.

-it was directly given to the 7 churches of asia minor in a specific period of time..not a church age, that is speculation forced on the text

Vakeros
Feb 5th 2013, 09:22 AM
-it was directly given to the 7 churches of asia minor in a specific period of time..not a church age, that is speculation forced on the text
The book was written for ALL saints, but sent specifically to the 7 churches. They each individually had a prophecy for themselves. That bit was just for each church. However like letters to other churches, we can all learn from what was said to them. Also the vision that was given separate from those specific parts are for all saints. This is noted in verse 1 - 3. So it isn't speculation to say that the text is for all believers, who will be blessed by reading them. Revelation isn't only for those individual churches but for all churches. Just as 1 Thessalonians is for that church, but also for all churches. Some parts being less relevant than others for us now.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 02:30 PM
Of course. But we are discussing the claim that the man of sin sits in the body of Christ, which is absurd for the reasons I already outlined.

The passage says "holy place". I've shown you how the man of sin can be where he should not be (holy place) but you continue to deny the plain passages presented. What is absurd is to continue to deny truth so you can hold on to your dispensationalism.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 02:37 PM
-it was directly given to the 7 churches of asia minor in a specific period of time..not a church age, that is speculation forced on the text

Karaite, why 7 churches? Before answering you might want to remember the book of Revelation is filled with symbolism. Is Christ, through His prophet John really writing to His Churches, but limits His warnings and blessings to only 7? Is that the way you read all of Scripture? You must if you are to be consistent.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 02:41 PM
RogerW you make a bad mistake which people often do. This mistake is to substitute a word with a phrase even though the phrase has a specific scope whereas the word has a wider application, thus you widen the phrase to greater than it should be.
For example The apostle Peter is a righteous man, so all righteous men are Peter. This is laughable and wing, yet that is exactly what you do with This holy church is the temple of God, so all churches are temples of God. In your own quote Paul doesn't write to the "temple of God" of the Thessalonians.Paul calls them a church. In the later letter he doesn't say the man of sin will sit in the church, which is what you are saying he wrote. No he deliberately uses the phrase temple of God.
Terry Pratchett uses similar reasoning to yours by saying something like: knowledge = power = energy = mass = space thus knowledge equals space.
Please don't confuse the two. Also ask yourself what is the Most Holy Place in Matt 24:15? According to what you have put, this can only be heaven. When Jesus was talking about a specific place on earth!

I've already shown what the holy place is. And I've repeatedly shown Scripture that proves Satan, wolves disguised as sheep, false doctrine, false teachers, antichrists etc. are already in the holy place; or where they should not be. I suppose I could continue to give you and others more and more Scripture proof, but it would very obviously do no good. So you continue to believe whatsoever you desire...it matters not one whit to me.

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 04:50 PM
The passage says "holy place". I've shown you how the man of sin can be where he should not be (holy place) but you continue to deny the plain passages presented. What is absurd is to continue to deny truth so you can hold on to your dispensationalism.I'm sorry, but you didn't show anything. You assert your ideas, but you don't prove your ideas. For some reason the idea appeals to you and you accept it on aesthetic grounds, but you have no reasons for what you believe.

To review, in case you forgot.

The passages cited earlier speak about the body of Christ as the temple of God. And why do the apostles speak about the body of Christ as the "temple" of God? The picture image points to the reality behind it, which is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells inwardly in every member of the body of Christ. Your view, though aesthetically pleasing, fails on two points.

1. If it were possible for the man of sin to be in the hearts of all the members of the body of Christ, it would cease being the body of Christ and it would cease being the temple of God.
2. It's not possible. No man, let alone a man of sin, can stand in all the hearts of the members of the body of Christ.

Vakeros
Feb 5th 2013, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry, but you didn't show anything. You assert your ideas, but you don't prove your ideas. For some reason the idea appeals to you and you accept it on aesthetic grounds, but you have no reasons for what you believe.
To review, in case you forgot.
The passages cited earlier speak about the body of Christ as the temple of God. And why do the apostles speak about the body of Christ as the "temple" of God? The picture image points to the reality behind it, which is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells inwardly in every member of the body of Christ. Your view, though aesthetically pleasing, fails on two points.

1. If it were possible for the man of sin to be in the hearts of all the members of the body of Christ, it would cease being the body of Christ and it would cease being the temple of God.
2. It's not possible. No man, let alone a man of sin, can stand in all the hearts of the members of the body of Christ.
Completely agree with the above two points. RogerW fails to deal with this and just goes on about the church as if the temple of God and the church are exactly the same.
He fails to address also where Jesus is referencing when He talks about the Holy Place in Matt 24:15 He definitely wasn't referencing His own body, nor the fellowship of believers that was to come. He pointed back to Daniel - and where was the Holy Place Daniel talked about? Where was it? That's right, it wasn't the Body of Christ. It wasn't the church. It was the Temple in Jerusalem.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 06:24 PM
I'm sorry, but you didn't show anything. You assert your ideas, but you don't prove your ideas. For some reason the idea appeals to you and you accept it on aesthetic grounds, but you have no reasons for what you believe.

To review, in case you forgot.

The passages cited earlier speak about the body of Christ as the temple of God. And why do the apostles speak about the body of Christ as the "temple" of God? The picture image points to the reality behind it, which is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells inwardly in every member of the body of Christ. Your view, though aesthetically pleasing, fails on two points.

1. If it were possible for the man of sin to be in the hearts of all the members of the body of Christ, it would cease being the body of Christ and it would cease being the temple of God.
2. It's not possible. No man, let alone a man of sin, can stand in all the hearts of the members of the body of Christ.

What and where is the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet? What is the meaning of "stand in the holy place" in the time of Daniel the prophet? Daniel 9:27; 12:11...."and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." ..."and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 07:42 PM
What and where is the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet?The Abomination of Desolation took place when Antiochus Epiphanes attempted to make a sacrifice to Zeus in the Temple.


What is the meaning of "stand in the holy place" in the time of Daniel the prophet?The Holy Place was the first chamber of the Temple in Jerusalem. Antiochus ordered the erection of the statue of Zeus to stand in the holy place.

Daniel 9:27 is NOT the Abomination of Desolation. Rather, as it says, when the abominations (plural) have reached their limit, there will come one who will desolate, or destroy the temple. This is a different event than that of Daniel 11:31. Antiochus desecrated the temple, Titus destroyed the temple. Two different events and two different people. Both prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Daniel 12:11 refers not to Daniel 9:27 but to Daniel 11:31. This passage refers to the Jewish wars with the Seleucids.

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 08:47 PM
With regard to the mark of the beast, like others I have an opinion.*

This is strictly speculation so take it for what it's worth. I note the use of triplets in the Revelation. For instance,

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come."

Repeating the word "holy" three times seems like a superlative, expressing the highest or a very high degree of holiness. By comparison, the Lord God Almighty is the holiest being that exists.

The mark of the beast is a triple number -- 6 - 6 - 6. If we were to use the same sentence construction for the beast as John did for the Almighty, we could write the following sentence.

six, six, six is the man, the one who makes an image of the beast for all to worship.

Repeating the number six might also be a kind of superlative, expressing the highest degree of "six-ness", whatever that is. All we need to do is figure out what "six-ness" is. What does "six" represent?

More than one possibility that comes to mind, but I would like to share this one at the moment.

1) Man kind was created on day six and so it seems reasonable or possible that the number six repeated three times represents the highest degree of humanness -- in other words "humanism" This presents us with two possibilities also.
1.a) Humanism -- empiricism over revelation.
1.b) Humanism -- human over divine.

The philosophy of humanism in which morality is centered on human kind, without attention to any notions of the divine, seems like a likely candidate for the philosophy of the beast, and why he might use triple six as a symbol to represent that concept. We know from 2Thess. and Daniel 11, this man will not worship any god or respect any religion. We also know that Satan teaches man, "you will be like God."



__________________________________
*I think we are meant to know precisely what the mark is when the time comes. Right now, all we can do is speculate.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 08:58 PM
The Abomination of Desolation took place when Antiochus Epiphanes attempted to make a sacrifice to Zeus in the Temple.

I know that what you think regarding the second temple. But what is "the abomination that maketh desolate set up" in the Daniel's time?


The Holy Place was the first chamber of the Temple in Jerusalem. Antiochus ordered the erection of the statue of Zeus to stand in the holy place.

How can that be? The Holy Place of God became an abomination and desolate? Holy means morally blameless; ceremonially clean...how could this Holy Place according to your earlier logic be made an abomination and brought to uttler desolation?


Daniel 9:27 is NOT the Abomination of Desolation. Rather, as it says, when the abominations (plural) have reached their limit, there will come one who will desolate, or destroy the temple. This is a different event than that of Daniel 11:31. Antiochus desecrated the temple, Titus destroyed the temple. Two different events and two different people. Both prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Daniel 12:11 refers not to Daniel 9:27 but to Daniel 11:31. This passage refers to the Jewish wars with the Seleucids.

That's pretty selective, since the Discourse simply tells us to understand the prophecy of Daniel regarding abomination(s) and desolation being where it should not be....just as it was in the time of Daniel.

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 09:51 PM
I know that what you think regarding the second temple. But what is "the abomination that maketh desolate set up" in the Daniel's time? The prophesies didn't apply to Daniel's time.


How can that be? The Holy Place of God became an abomination and desolate?What do you mean "how"? I'm talking historical fact.


Holy means morally blameless; ceremonially clean...how could this Holy Place according to your earlier logic be made an abomination and brought to uttler desolation? What do you mean "according to my logic?"


That's pretty selective, since the Discourse simply tells us to understand the prophecy of Daniel regarding abomination(s) and desolation being where it should not be....just as it was in the time of Daniel.You lost me here.

RogerW
Feb 5th 2013, 11:33 PM
The prophesies didn't apply to Daniel's time.

I know that. But since we are directed to "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place", we need to turn to Daniel to see what the abomination of desolation Daniel spoke of. Daniel 9 for example begins with a prayer of confession to have mercy of them that love Him. Daniel is concerned because he understands that all that is coming against Daniel and his people (Jews) is the result of "committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land."

Da 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Da*9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Da*9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Da*9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Da*9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Da*9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
Da*9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

In his prayer Daniel is acknowledging why Jerusalem and "thy people" had become a reproach to all, especially to God. For this the city was destroyed and "thy people" taken into captivity. It is exactly the same unrighteousness that brings the city and temple to ruins in the first century AD. That is why in the Olivet Discourse we are directed to the abomination(s) that bring to utter desolation of Daniel's time. But now (OD) is being directed to Christ's disciples as His Kingdom is built through His Church as His gospel goes out unto all the nations of the world. Just as the Old has become an abomination to God, not once, but twice, so too for the same reasons the New Covenant Church can become an abomination to God. The warning is explicit and clear, do not do as "thy people" of Old, repent when you understand abomination is where it should not be found. Repent and turn back (flee) to Christ.


What do you mean "how"? I'm talking historical fact.

Yes, and just as it is a historical fact that the Holy Place of Old has become an abomination to God, so too can the holy place of the New become an abomination. That is what the letters in Revelation warn.


What do you mean "according to my logic?"

You seem to doubt that something/someone that is declared holy unto God can and does become abomination.


You lost me here.

The Discourse does not refer us to any one specific prophecy from Daniel, but rather generally warns us to read of abomination(s) that Daniel has spoken, has warned.

BroRog
Feb 6th 2013, 02:50 AM
Just as the Old has become an abomination to God, not once, but twice, so too for the same reasons the New Covenant Church can become an abomination to God.So you say. But you have yet to prove this. It isn't enough for you to state it, you need to prove it.


You seem to doubt that something/someone that is declared holy unto God can and does become abomination.Really? Is that what you got from what I said? Were you following the conversation? I notice you like to post on many threads. Perhaps you didn't read this one well enough. The contention made in this thread is that the man of sin will enter the body of Christ, which the Apostles teach is the dwelling of God. I already showed why this is an absurd notion.


The Discourse does not refer us to any one specific prophecy from Daniel, but rather generally warns us to read of abomination(s) that Daniel has spoken, has warned.Perhaps you don't remember but we are not talking about Matthew 24, we are talking about 2Thessalonians 2, which mentions the man of sin standing in the holy place. The assertion was that the "holy place" was not the physical Temple in Jerusalem but the spiritual temple of the body of Christ, which is an absurd idea for the reasons I already gave.

Here is what I said earlier.



The passages cited earlier speak about the body of Christ as the temple of God. And why do the apostles speak about the body of Christ as the "temple" of God? The picture image points to the reality behind it, which is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells inwardly in every member of the body of Christ. Your view, though aesthetically pleasing, fails on two points.

1. If it were possible for the man of sin to be in the hearts of all the members of the body of Christ, it would cease being the body of Christ and it would cease being the temple of God.
2. It's not possible. No man, let alone a man of sin, can stand in all the hearts of the members of the body of Christ.

If you want to continue, you need to address each of these points. By definition, the metaphor of the temple refers to the group of people in whom the Spirit of God dwells. No man, let alone a man of sin, can stand there. Think about it.

Raybob
Feb 6th 2013, 02:50 AM
-it was directly given to the 7 churches of asia minor in a specific period of time..not a church age, that is speculation forced on the text

I don't undersand. How can a church not be in the age of churches (church age)?

Balabusha
Feb 6th 2013, 05:54 AM
I don't undersand. How can a church not be in the age of churches (church age)?

-Good point RayBob. The churches would be in the church age, just not seven historical periods of time..it was a specific epic of time

RogerW
Feb 6th 2013, 03:27 PM
So you say. But you have yet to prove this. It isn't enough for you to state it, you need to prove it.

Really? Is that what you got from what I said? Were you following the conversation? I notice you like to post on many threads. Perhaps you didn't read this one well enough. The contention made in this thread is that the man of sin will enter the body of Christ, which the Apostles teach is the dwelling of God. I already showed why this is an absurd notion.

Perhaps you don't remember but we are not talking about Matthew 24, we are talking about 2Thessalonians 2, which mentions the man of sin standing in the holy place. The assertion was that the "holy place" was not the physical Temple in Jerusalem but the spiritual temple of the body of Christ, which is an absurd idea for the reasons I already gave.

I believe I've been following the points you've been making all along. I understand you don't get the body of Christ, being the holy place having the man of sin standing there. To you that would be absurd because if the man of sin is in the body of Christ, the holy place it ceases to be the body of Christ, the holy place...I think that's pretty must your point.

But what you refuse to acknowledge, even though I've given ample Scripture to prove my point, is that within the body of Christ, the holy place we find that man of sin, who looks and sounds very much like a Christian, but in fact is anti-christ. You see the body of Christ, the holy place, is made up of "many members". Thus the reason it is called a congregation. The purpose for the warning is that if the true body of Christ, the holy place; i.e. many people, are not carefully watching, protecting, and guarding the whole flock of Christ, they can and do become partakers in sin through the man of sin among them.

Now you can continue to deny this as long as you wish, but that does not mean that I have not shown you this truth or that it is not truth.

divaD
Feb 6th 2013, 03:41 PM
I believe I've been following the points you've been making all along. I understand you don't get the body of Christ, being the holy place having the man of sin standing there. To you that would be absurd because if the man of sin is in the body of Christ, the holy place it ceases to be the body of Christ, the holy place...I think that's pretty must your point.

But what you refuse to acknowledge, even though I've given ample Scripture to prove my point, is that within the body of Christ, the holy place we find that man of sin, who looks and sounds very much like a Christian, but in fact is anti-christ. You see the body of Christ, the holy place, is made up of "many members". Thus the reason it is called a congregation. The purpose for the warning is that if the true body of Christ, the holy place; i.e. many people, are not carefully watching, protecting, and guarding the whole flock of Christ, they can and do become partakers in sin through the man of sin among them.

Now you can continue to deny this as long as you wish, but that does not mean that I have not shown you this truth or that it is not truth.



RW, it looks like you and I might be on the same page then...maybe. Personally, I tend to make the following connections.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Could it be that the man of sin represents numerous folks, and not just meaning one person in particular? I'm still trying to work all of this out of course. So I haven't really decided on this. Mainly something I've been pondering for some time now.

BroRog
Feb 6th 2013, 05:25 PM
I believe I've been following the points you've been making all along. I understand you don't get the body of Christ, being the holy place having the man of sin standing there. To you that would be absurd because if the man of sin is in the body of Christ, the holy place it ceases to be the body of Christ, the holy place...I think that's pretty must your point.

But what you refuse to acknowledge, even though I've given ample Scripture to prove my point, is that within the body of Christ, the holy place we find that man of sin, who looks and sounds very much like a Christian, but in fact is anti-christ. You see the body of Christ, the holy place, is made up of "many members". Thus the reason it is called a congregation. The purpose for the warning is that if the true body of Christ, the holy place; i.e. many people, are not carefully watching, protecting, and guarding the whole flock of Christ, they can and do become partakers in sin through the man of sin among them.

Now you can continue to deny this as long as you wish, but that does not mean that I have not shown you this truth or that it is not truth.You don't really understand my point yet. You are still thinking of the holy place as a location where a person might stand, i.e. AMONG a congregation etc. But when the apostles talk about the body of Christ as "the temple" of God, the concept isn't spatial. The "temple" of God isn't located anywhere where a man might stand, it's inward, in the hearts of believers. Do you understand yet?

RogerW
Feb 6th 2013, 11:17 PM
Could it be that the man of sin represents numerous folks, and not just meaning one person in particular? I'm still trying to work all of this out of course. So I haven't really decided on this. Mainly something I've been pondering for some time now.

See my reply to you in "great wrath upon this people"

RogerW
Feb 6th 2013, 11:25 PM
You don't really understand my point yet. You are still thinking of the holy place as a location where a person might stand, i.e. AMONG a congregation etc. But when the apostles talk about the body of Christ as "the temple" of God, the concept isn't spatial. The "temple" of God isn't located anywhere where a man might stand, it's inward, in the hearts of believers. Do you understand yet?

What I understand Rog, through the abundance of Scripture is that you are wrong! I think the real problem for you might be that you don't believe that Messiah came in His kingdom. His kingdom NOW, since He came and is found in this world within churches and congregations. Imperfect and blemished though she is in this age, His kingdom, via the church on earth has come. Your looking for His Kingdom without spot or blemish, but that won't be until Christ returns to make all things new again. Why do you think there are so many references to war, and battle throughout Scripture? Because the Kingdom of God via His church on earth is a militant Kingdom, until it is complete...then He will: "send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity".

Raybob
Feb 7th 2013, 12:11 AM
You don't really understand my point yet. You are still thinking of the holy place as a location where a person might stand, i.e. AMONG a congregation etc. But when the apostles talk about the body of Christ as "the temple" of God, the concept isn't spatial. The "temple" of God isn't located anywhere where a man might stand, it's inward, in the hearts of believers. ...

Actually, every believer is a 'stone' of the temple, with Jesus as the corner stone.

1Pe 2:5-6 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

T W Taylor
Feb 7th 2013, 01:00 AM
Hey RodgerW,


The mark of the beast, like the mark of Christ refers to ownership. The reason the mark is found in his forehead or in his hand refers to the mind, and our labors. If our mind and works are guided by the beast (his mark), then the beast is the owner.

I agree, but there is also a mark that is put on the forehead ofthose that take the mark of the beast. There are about a billion and a half or two billion Christians that will take a mark on their forehead in about three weeks.


if we have the mark of Christ; our mind and labors are guided by Christ in us (His mark), then Christ is our owner.

I agree, Do you have the mark that Christ keeps his church in?

John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father,
keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

John 17:26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

BroRog
Feb 7th 2013, 04:41 AM
Actually, every believer is a 'stone' of the temple, with Jesus as the corner stone.

1Pe 2:5-6 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.And? What about it?

Raybob
Feb 7th 2013, 08:06 AM
And? What about it?

It's opposite of what you said.

Vakeros
Feb 7th 2013, 09:03 AM
Actually, every believer is a 'stone' of the temple, with Jesus as the corner stone.

1Pe 2:5-6 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


It's opposite of what you said.
It isn't opposite to what he said. He said it isn't spatial, but about internal, being living stones. If Christ is in you, then can the man of sin also dwell there?
The answer is no! If he could then you would not have Christ in you.

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 01:25 PM
It isn't opposite to what he said. He said it isn't spatial, but about internal, being living stones. If Christ is in you, then can the man of sin also dwell there?
The answer is no! If he could then you would not have Christ in you.

That's the point Vakeros! No the man of sin cannot be "in" the believer. But make no mistake about it, he can and is "with" the believer; i.e. where he should not be. And as long as he is where he should not be, believers can and are made to be partakers of sin. That's why when Christians understand the man of sin is where he should not be, with them, in the holy place (church; congregation of Christ), they should flee to Christ. IOW repent and turn again to Christ.

Vakeros
Feb 7th 2013, 02:11 PM
That's the point Vakeros! No the man of sin cannot be "in" the believer. But make no mistake about it, he can and is "with" the believer; i.e. where he should not be. And as long as he is where he should not be, believers can and are made to be partakers of sin. That's why when Christians understand the man of sin is where he should not be, with them, in the holy place (church; congregation of Christ), they should flee to Christ. IOW repent and turn again to Christ.
Notice in what you put, again you equate the holy place to a place, spatially. The temple of God isn't a spatial place, if you like it is a spiritual place. The man of sin can't enter such a place. You actually use the phrase temple of God like I do as a physical place, yet then try to make out it isn't, but rather a spiritual one. You have to decide is it spiritual, in which case the man of sin cannot be there, or a physical one, where he can be but then that is different to what you say. If physical then which physical place? There is only one physical place that matches and that is Jerusalem. If not a physical place, then you need to explain how the man of sin can be seated in a person.

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 05:02 PM
Notice in what you put, again you equate the holy place to a place, spatially. The temple of God isn't a spatial place, if you like it is a spiritual place. The man of sin can't enter such a place. You actually use the phrase temple of God like I do as a physical place, yet then try to make out it isn't, but rather a spiritual one. You have to decide is it spiritual, in which case the man of sin cannot be there, or a physical one, where he can be but then that is different to what you say. If physical then which physical place? There is only one physical place that matches and that is Jerusalem. If not a physical place, then you need to explain how the man of sin can be seated in a person.

Vakeros, do you agree the man of sin; son of perdition refers to the spiritual condition of man? It cannot refer to physical condition because all men are physical beings...yes?

Vakeros
Feb 7th 2013, 06:47 PM
Vakeros, do you agree the man of sin; son of perdition refers to the spiritual condition of man? It cannot refer to physical condition because all men are physical beings...yes?
No it refers to a person, just like Jesus referred to a single person when he used the phrase in John 17:12. Man's spiritual condition is either in Jesus (a believer, one who has been born again) or a non-believer. Whether they attend church is irrelevant. The son of perdition Jesus referenced is in all probability Judas. He was in the church, but NOT of the church. He therefore wasn't a temple of God, nor part of the temple of God. He instead is lost. The man of sin, who is also called the son of perdition is like Judas - therefore a single person who will be in the church. This ties in completely with 1 John 2:18, that makes reference to antichrists (plural) and Antichrist (singular). There are many sinners who do not repent of their sins and still attend church. There are even leaders of churches like this. These people are all men of sin (plural), antichrists (plural) and note in 1 John 2:19 they went out from us, but they were not part of us. The man of sin will be like them, not part of the temple of God, but he is both singular and he will revealed. This is not referring to lots of people. As men of sin and antichrists have come and gone, but the day of Christ hasn't come yet, because this particular individual has NOT been revealed. How will he be revealed? 2 Thess 2:4 tells us.
This has been understood in the past as a reference to the Pope sitting in the church of God in Rome. I don't accept that firstly because the temple of God doesn't reference the Catholic Church or Rome. When talking about a physical place as opposed to a spiritual state it references the only place called in scripture the temple of God. This is in Jerusalem.
As per my above thoughts it isn't speaking about a general spiritual condition, and when talking about the temple of God in spiritual terms, it is impossible for the man of sin to be there. Note the history of the destruction and desolation in the past. It only could occur because God left first. It didn't occur first and then God left, but the reverse, God left (so it was no longer a truly holy place) and so the AoD could be set up. This isn't possible for a temple of God in the spiritual sense, because He has promised to never leave us or forsake us. If we do the reverse and leave Him, then we will no longer be the temple of God and thus we become men of sin, but no longer temple's of God. They are mutually exclusive in the spiritual sense and only possible in the physical sense when referencing a physical place.

divaD
Feb 7th 2013, 06:56 PM
This isn't possible for a temple of God in the spiritual sense, because He has promised to never leave us or forsake us. If we do the reverse and leave Him, then we will no longer be the temple of God and thus we become men of sin, but no longer temple's of God. They are mutually exclusive in the spiritual sense and only possible in the physical sense when referencing a physical place.



With that in mind, how would you explain the following passage then?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Doesn't this imply, that even tho one has the Spirit of God dwelling in them, that they can still defile the temple of God, which they are, based on the fact that God says He will destroy those that do so?

BroRog
Feb 7th 2013, 07:02 PM
It's opposite of what you said.How so? What did you think I said that is the opposite of 1Pet. 2:5-6? I want to know because I don't think I can explain myself any better, but perhaps some feedback might help.

Raybob
Feb 7th 2013, 07:45 PM
How so? What did you think I said that is the opposite of 1Pet. 2:5-6? I want to know because I don't think I can explain myself any better, but perhaps some feedback might help.

Sorry, looking back. I see you were saying what I was saying. ...Never mind.

Vakeros
Feb 7th 2013, 07:48 PM
With that in mind, how would you explain the following passage then?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Doesn't this imply, that even tho one has the Spirit of God dwelling in them, that they can still defile the temple of God, which they are, based on the fact that God says He will destroy those that do so?
Let's think about this for a moment. When you believe in Christ you are Born Again and you receive a new spirit within you. Some would then argue that therefore Once Saved Always Saved - that you cannot lose your salvation. There is merit in that argument. However there is also in my opinion much stronger merit in the argument that we are called to remain in Him, to abide in Him, to not only enter the narrow gate, but walk the narrow path. The good news is that we will have Him helping us along the way and even if we go off the way, He will bring us back. So then, I seem to be arguing for OSAS indirectly. However there is one sin that is unforgivable, this is touched upon in Hebrews 6:4-8. It is unforgivable simply because we are required to accept His gift for us. This sin is rejecting Him whom we once believed, whilst we live in apostasy we can't receive the forgiveness that is needed. As soon as we accept Him again (repent) we are no longer sinning.
Now lets look at the passage and see the context. It is talking about individuals who are each the temple of God. However it is also about the teaching and work one does. That work the person does which is bad will be destroyed by fire, though that same individual will be saved. Now this actually ties in to Jesus' teaching in Matthew 18:6 - 7. here we have believers who are meant to humble themselves and then you have someone who teaches a child of God to sin. Jesus pronounces a woe on that teacher. This is the same as 1 Co 3:17 Woe to that man who teaches God's children to sin, for they will be destroyed.
Now to bring this back to the heart of the question, the person who is "the temple of God" defiles this temple through sin. Does this mean that the person who sins is a man of sin? No. Does it mean the person who leads another to sin is an antichrist and a son of perdition? You could say yes they are. Can you then say as this person is (presumably) in the church they are therefore sitting in the temple of God? No, because it is the child of God who is "the temple of God", not the church. The child of God is holy and when they sin, they must confess their sin and repent. Just because you sin, it does not mean you are a man of sin. That was true before, but no longer so. Those who teach others to sin are antichrists, but are not OF the church, merely IN it.
So what I am saying is the man in verse 17 isn't the same person who sins. In other words they cause or lead others who are the temple of God to defile themselves. This is reading the verse in context with the rest of 1 Co 3 and not just those two verses which would possibly imply something else. In fact it would imply that if you sin you will be destroyed. That is contrary to the rest of scripture. Once we receive Jesus, then though we may sin, we will NOT face the final judgement, unless we reject Him. This is a difficult thought to understand and should probably be discussed in a different thread. However in terms of the man of sin. No, those who are the temple of God are NOT men of sin.

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 09:50 PM
With that in mind, how would you explain the following passage then?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Doesn't this imply, that even tho one has the Spirit of God dwelling in them, that they can still defile the temple of God, which they are, based on the fact that God says He will destroy those that do so?

That's how I understand it also David. Believers [temple of God, holy, which temple we are] can and are defiled by the man of sin being where he should not be. How many believers have been and will be caused to stumble and fall through the deception these workers of deception bring? A church [called out ones; church] that becomes defiled is an abomination unto God, and unless he/she repents, they will become desolate, with all the Light of Christ being removed...a place of utter darkness, just as Jerusalem and the temple had. God's own old covenant people allowed themselves to become defiled through spiritual adultery, and false worship, and if the church doesn't heed the warnings through their example she too will become an abomination unto God.