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BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 03:35 AM
So I just got done watching a show about Andrew McAuley, an adventurer who died trying to kayak from Australia to New Zealand back in 2007. This man after crossing tremendously rough seas died within the sight of land leaving his wife and son. It's one of the saddest stories I have ever heard.

My question is why are things the way they are? Why did this person die so close to land and not in the toughest part of his trip that was already past? Why did he die at all? Why is there sin in this world is what I'm really asking. Why did God create this world knowing that people will die and go to hell? God is all powerful right? So why when Adam sinned didn't God just get rid of the sin? Why did God create Adam in the first place? Doesn't it seem that the whole world would have been better off if it were never created?

Yeah some people go to heaven and that's great but a whole lot of people go to hell forever and I don't understand why God lets this happen. Could he not stop all of this if he wanted to? Then why doesn't he? Why are things the way they are and why can't they be different?

CoffeeCat
Sep 16th 2008, 03:50 AM
Hey there.

All I can say is that we've got our whole lives to come to Christ -- and however long that life is, it's long enough to hear of Him, and to start following Him. I think we could invert your questions, really.... why do people ignore God? Why do they reject Christ? Why would a drowning man reject a flotation device.... maybe because he was wanting a blue one, and the one tossed out to him was red? Why, in our entire lifetime, can't so many of us give God just the tiniest bit of a chance to work in our hearts?

We don't know the time of our death, or the hour. All we can know is that Christ wants us before it's too late. God's righteous. He gives us all the chances possible. We're all appointed to die.... but even more significantly, God wants us to LIVE. For Him. In the time we have. And if and when we do, we can live for Him for always.

I know that none of it "seems fair", that people should go to hell.... But it isn't fair that God should send His son to earth, that Christ should die for us, and that we should reject that and still expect, somehow, to get to heaven.

All the more reason, I think, for Christians to share the gospel. We don't know if the person we're talking to has 10 minutes left to get to know Christ, or a year, or ten years, or a few decades or more..... all we have is the here and now to share His love in. And it wouldn't be "fair" to those we encounter if we DON'T share that love. We might be thinking "that guy was on such a long journey, but now he sees the shore and his life will get better".... only to watch him die before he reaches shore. We can't assume that those we meet will have another chance to seize hope, and that's why we need to offer it to them while we can.

That's the best way I know of understanding some of this. Things are the way they are because of human choice..... so lets make the best choices we can, and live for Christ so that others want to, also.

BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 03:54 AM
Hey there.

All I can say is that we've got our whole lives to come to Christ -- and however long that life is, it's long enough to hear of Him, and to start following Him. I think we could invert your questions, really.... why do people ignore God? Why do they reject Christ? Why would a drowning man reject a flotation device.... maybe because he was wanting a blue one, and the one tossed out to him was red? Why, in our entire lifetime, can't so many of us give God just the tiniest bit of a chance to work in our hearts?

We don't know the time of our death, or the hour. All we can know is that Christ wants us before it's too late. God's righteous. He gives us all the chances possible. We're all appointed to die.... but even more significantly, God wants us to LIVE. For Him. In the time we have. And if and when we do, we can live for Him for always.

I know that none of it "seems fair", that people should go to hell.... But it isn't fair that God should send His son to earth, that Christ should die for us, and that we should reject that and still expect, somehow, to get to heaven.

All the more reason, I think, for Christians to share the gospel. We don't know if the person we're talking to has 10 minutes left to get to know Christ, or a year, or ten years, or a few decades or more..... all we have is the here and now to share His love in. And it wouldn't be "fair" to those we encounter if we DON'T share that love.

That's the best way I know of understanding some of this. Things are the way they are because of human choice..... so lets make the best choices we can, and live for Christ so that others want to, also.

But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he? Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan? Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?

CoffeeCat
Sep 16th 2008, 04:05 AM
It came down to human choice. That was God's bottom line, it seems. He COULD make it so that we ALWAYS choose Him and we never sin..... but after all, sin is defined as the absence of good. Sin happens when we don't choose God. If God were to take sin away, He'd be taking away our right to choose Him or not choose Him. If He took away the CONSEQUENCES (ie, eternity without Him)... He wouldn't be Holy, and He wouldn't be respecting the fact that some humans don't WANT to be with Him for eternity.

It goes both ways. Keep Earth paradise, and we NEVER choose on our own. Take away ANY consequences for sin, and God ends up CONDONING sin. If God were to keep Heaven and, say, simply extinguish those who don't believe.... with no punishment other than their non-existence... He'd be doing the very thing He can't do: He'd be destroying something He made for Himself.

By giving us a choice.... He's giving us freedom. And it's a hard, dangerous freedom with a lot of responsibility.

I know that's hard to accept. It's hard to admit that we're all responsible for making the choices we do. But it's the truth. We need to step up and start turning to Him. We need to show compassion to those without Him, showing them why they SHOULD want Him.

BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 04:12 AM
It came down to human choice. That was God's bottom line, it seems. He COULD make it so that we ALWAYS choose Him and we never sin..... but after all, sin is defined as the absence of good. Sin happens when we don't choose God. If God were to take sin away, He'd be taking away our right to choose Him or not choose Him. If He took away the CONSEQUENCES (ie, eternity without Him)... He wouldn't be Holy, and He wouldn't be respecting the fact that some humans don't WANT to be with Him for eternity.

It goes both ways. Keep Earth paradise, and we NEVER choose on our own. Take away ANY consequences for sin, and God ends up CONDONING sin. If God were to keep Heaven and, say, simply extinguish those who don't believe.... with no punishment other than their non-existence... He'd be doing the very thing He can't do: He'd be destroying something He made for Himself.

By giving us a choice.... He's giving us freedom. And it's a hard, dangerous freedom with a lot of responsibility.

I know that's hard to accept. It's hard to admit that we're all responsible for making the choices we do. But it's the truth. We need to step up and start turning to Him. We need to show compassion to those without Him, showing them why they SHOULD want Him.

Well all of this is assuming we have freedom. Some would contend we don't but even if we do all this still doesn't explain why God created things the way they are. I mean, sin isn't some force that God is bound to is it? So why doesn't he get rid of it? And if sending people to hell because of sin is the only way to punish a person then why did God create the world at all?

CoffeeCat
Sep 16th 2008, 04:14 AM
Brck....


mind if I ask you what prompted this thread? :hug: Are you having problems with a friend who didn't accept Christ before they died.... or family members? There are just a lot of hypotheticals here... and sometimes the hardest time we humans have is when we think something's not fair at the same time as we're hurting inside about something. It makes it all the worse. So just in case something's tearing you up that's personal, even if you don't want to share.... I'm praying for ya.

CoffeeCat
Sep 16th 2008, 04:19 AM
Well all of this is assuming we have freedom. Some would contend we don't but even if we do all this still doesn't explain why God created things the way they are. I mean, sin isn't some force that God is bound to is it? So why doesn't he get rid of it? And if sending people to hell because of sin is the only way to punish a person then why did God create the world at all?

No, sin isn't some force God's bound to. Sin is the absence of good; the absence of God. God isn't bound to that which negates Him; that wouldn't make sense. He can't get "rid" of our decisions against Him without getting rid of our choice.

I believe we do have freedom, but that's a debate for another thread, I think.

If you're trying to ask "why doesn't God take away our temptation to sin".... the answer is, I don't know. Maybe because when we're tempted.... turning away from it and turning to Christ is that much sweeter. Maybe, in some ways, to be tempted strengthens us. We learn to say no to evil and yes to Christ. Not all of us learn that, but those of us who do get stronger.

So..... Brck..... why do YOU think things are the way they are? As a Christian, if someone were to ask you the same questions you've asked, how would you answer?

BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 04:21 AM
Brck....


mind if I ask you what prompted this thread? :hug: Are you having problems with a friend who didn't accept Christ before they died.... or family members? There are just a lot of hypotheticals here... and sometimes the hardest time we humans have is when we think something's not fair at the same time as we're hurting inside about something. It makes it all the worse. So just in case something's tearing you up that's personal, even if you don't want to share.... I'm praying for ya.

No, it's nothing personal (thankfully). It was the show and just me thinking about all the people that are and will suffer on earth and go to hell to suffer eternally that prompted me to think about these questions. I just don't understand why this has to be the way things are. I've never faced these questions before so that's why they are just pouring out. Thanks for the prayers by the way. :hug:

RoadWarrior
Sep 16th 2008, 05:59 AM
When I was new in Christ, I had the same question. So I did a study on what the Bible says about Satan. I had a thread about it here on the Board once a while back.

It didn't give me all the answers, but gave me a framework for understanding, that I could live with.

It's here http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118545&highlight=Who+is+Satan if you are interested.

Duane Morse
Sep 16th 2008, 06:29 AM
It's one of the saddest stories I have ever heard.

My question is why are things the way they are? Why did this person die so close to land and not in the toughest part of his trip that was already past? Why did he die at all? Why is there sin in this world is what I'm really asking.
What is the 'sin' that you mention, in regards to this post?

Was it the guy's selfishness in undertaking such a thing when he had a family that needed him?

And, is that the 'sad' part of the story?

BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 03:02 PM
What is the 'sin' that you mention, in regards to this post?

Was it the guy's selfishness in undertaking such a thing when he had a family that needed him?

And, is that the 'sad' part of the story?

Why do you have to be so mean? Almost every post of yours is a bitter one.

I was talking about sin in general.

drew
Sep 16th 2008, 03:39 PM
No, sin isn't some force God's bound to. Sin is the absence of good; the absence of God.
I politely disagree. I think that the scriptures, and not least the book of Romans, show that sin is not simply "the absence of good". Nor is it a moral category only.

Even though it goes deeply against our highly rationalistic way of thinking, I believe that Paul sees sin as a "real" force - a real part of the world, a "thing" that has existence independent of us and has its own properties.

The arguments under this position are somewhat lengthy. But just for starters, consider Romans 8:3

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105c)] And so he condemned [B]sin in sinful man,

Paul is saying that, on the cross, sin is condemned. So sin cannot simply be "the absence of good" or even something like a moral category. It is a real force in the world that needed to be condemned, or de-activated, or defused, or defeated on the cross.

This idea is a little tough for modern westerners to digest, since it almost suggests that sin is like a "ghost" or "evil power" that lurks hidden in our universe. Well, I think that is indeed probably the case, at least to some extent.

There are other scriptural reasons to see sin as something more "real", almost "physical".

drew
Sep 16th 2008, 03:45 PM
God is all powerful right? So why when Adam sinned didn't God just get rid of the sin?
I do not see any Scriptural evidence to suggest this notion that God is "all-powerful", at least in the sense of "doing anything He wants to do". It may well be the case, and I think it is, that God is indeed bound by His own prior commitments. If God decides to do X, He may be shutting the door on His doing Y, if X and Y are logically imcompatible.

In any event, I think that the "getting rid of sin" is one of these things - it is simply impossible for God to "snap his fingers" and clean the world of sin. So instead he engages in a millennia long project of cleansing the world of sin and defeating its power.

That project reached its climax on the cross, when sin was "condemned" and its power broken and diminished. And it will reach its ultimate conclusion when Jesus returns.

Even God has "work to do" to get rid of the sin that is in the world.

threebigrocks
Sep 16th 2008, 04:11 PM
Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?

God allowed sin, but didn't force it onto humankind. Man chose sin. God has given us a way out, and it isn't hidden or a secret as though we didn't have a clue as to our destiny.

Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We have a way out. Nobody on this earth that has been, is or will be needs to suffer eternally if they simply "see the writing on the wall" - Christ Jesus. You know of Him, I know of Him. We are charged to take that information, that Good News, to those who do not know Him.

Man chooses to reject Christ by our very nature. Hence, we need to make that conscience choice to accept Him and walk in His ways. If we choose Him and remain in the faith, eternal damnation is removed from our eternal future. Eternal life reigns! That is the hope on which we hang our faith.


BricBin, you have a passion to see men live and be saved. You have a heart that all men should live. Forgive me if I don't remember if you already do, but share the hope and the way and the life of Christ with others! Chip away at the number who are against Christ and do what you can to turn them for Christ.

legoman
Sep 16th 2008, 04:15 PM
No, it's nothing personal (thankfully). It was the show and just me thinking about all the people that are and will suffer on earth and go to hell to suffer eternally that prompted me to think about these questions. I just don't understand why this has to be the way things are. I've never faced these questions before so that's why they are just pouring out. Thanks for the prayers by the way. :hug:

Hi BrckBrln,

I totally get what you are saying here. I've had similar thoughts in the past.

"God is Love, but why would he let someone suffer eternally in hell? If he really was Love, wouldn't he just stop the suffering?" etc. These are questions that atheists typically pull in defending their choice, and they do raise valid points. We have to be able to answer them.

For myself, I have come to the conclusion that God is in full control, and everything is going according to his divine plan. I truly believe there is a reason for everything - even the bad stuff - even Andrew McAuley's death. I think (correct me if I'm wrong BrckBrln) that you and I have similar beliefs in this regard - ie. lack of true free will, more like a caused will that is following God's plan. (I don't want to bring that debate into this thread though).



But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he?
Well, he sent his son because it was part of his plan. His plan does involve suffering, but it is ultimately for good. True he could have just snapped his fingers, and saved everyone from sin, but would we have learned anything? There was a purpose for Christ coming (other than the obvious one of saving us). He serves as the example for all of us to live by.



Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan?
Yes, God could reverse all wrong. He will destroy hell and satan (via the lake of fire). Ultimately, God will set everything right. But there is a time and purpose for everything. In the meantime, we have to endure life's trials.



Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?
Well I have some ideas on this too, but I admit it is tough to reconcile. My views might be considered somewhat unorthodox. We always have to remember: God is LOVE.

Peace,
Legoman

BrckBrln
Sep 16th 2008, 04:24 PM
Thanks for the replies you guys. They have helped.

Duane Morse
Sep 16th 2008, 04:39 PM
Why do you have to be so mean? Almost every post of yours is a bitter one.

I was talking about sin in general.
?
You mentioned sin (general) in your post, and I asked how it applied to your OP. How is that mean?

I asked if the sin was the man's selfishness.
Again, how it that being mean?

CoffeeCat
Sep 16th 2008, 05:07 PM
I politely disagree. I think that the scriptures, and not least the book of Romans, show that sin is not simply "the absence of good". Nor is it a moral category only.

Even though it goes deeply against our highly rationalistic way of thinking, I believe that Paul sees sin as a "real" force - a real part of the world, a "thing" that has existence independent of us and has its own properties.

The arguments under this position are somewhat lengthy. But just for starters, consider Romans 8:3

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28105c)] And so he condemned [B]sin in sinful man,

Paul is saying that, on the cross, sin is condemned. So sin cannot simply be "the absence of good" or even something like a moral category. It is a real force in the world that needed to be condemned, or de-activated, or defused, or defeated on the cross.

This idea is a little tough for modern westerners to digest, since it almost suggests that sin is like a "ghost" or "evil power" that lurks hidden in our universe. Well, I think that is indeed probably the case, at least to some extent.

There are other scriptural reasons to see sin as something more "real", almost "physical".

Hey, Drew. :) I just wanted to clarify for you and for Brck.... when I said "sin is the absence of good; the absence of God" I did mean to tie that together. I should have said "sin is the absence of good AND God's will together" together. And what I meant was that if you have God's will in operation... and God's good.... then by definition, you won't have sin in the same place. God is everywhere. Even in the middle of our sinful lives. God's will actually being exercised and followed by us..... that's what isn't always present, and that's where I think sin has a foothold.

I agree with the idea that sin's a more powerful force than merely the absence of God. It's also an active evil, and comes from Satan himself. It isn't some benign vague absence of "good".

Hope that helped some.

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 05:50 PM
Hi BrckBrin,
These are questions people have been asking for ages -myself included.

While looking only at ourselves (people and the world), we miss a bigger picture.
‘Not such a warm and fuzzy picture, but it puts things into perspective.

Some may disagree with me and that’s fine.

As best as I can figure it:

God is a creative God and a good and holy God – indeed the only real God.
He is not subject to time and space, for He created it all.
He knows the end as well as He knows the beginning.

In His wisdom, He has put in motion two scenarios.

One dealing with Angelic beings, and one dealing with Human beings.
The two scenarios are related.

First, God created angels. They were/are essentially His servants.
Some say they have no free will, but then Lucifer would not have made the choice He did.
(Of course, they do not have the distractions that we on Earth have to deal with)
Lucifer (the luminous one – as in an angel of light), the head angel got puffed up with pride. He forgot that he was created and not the creator and decided he was as the Most High God.

He led a rebellion in Heaven where 1/3 of the angels followed him in this idea that they were as good as God. That they did not need to take orders and obey.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Rev 12:3 ,4

God decided to punish/destroy Lucifer and company, so He came up with the Lake of fire for the final judgment in His case against these rebellious angels.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

There is also what we call Hell, which is meant as a holding dungeon for the rebellious while they wait for the judgment.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Peter 2:4

End Part 1

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 05:52 PM
Part 2

Here’s where the other scenario comes into play.
YHWH desired more than servants. He desired fellowship.
Additionally: in order to justify Lucifer/Satan’s punishment and actually shame him, God created us.

(Of course He had to create the physical realm with all the laws of physics, and the laws of the cosmos – even molecular laws and the rules of DNA.)
He set it all in motion. Resulting in humans - created as beings less powerful than angels and also having freedom of will.

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 8:4-6

Since then, Satan has tried to thwart God’s purpose, lie and pervert the truth – so as to lead us astray.
That is his attempt to shame God.

God loves His new creation and wants the best for us. That best is to be in fellowship with Him.
Satan also hates us, because God has made these lesser beings the object of His attention and care.

Throughout history, God the taken the least in number and the least in grandeur - the least esteemed – to show all of creation (angels and humans) that He is a just and righteous God.
‘And to store up “evidence” to the shame of Satan.

When even a remnant of these lesser beings (you and me) are faithful to YHWH – even though we cannot see Him…
When we trust in Him and continue to seek His will by faith alone…
When we accept the grace offered us through, Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ – so that we can be clean to come in to the presence of a holy God and fellowship with Him.
When we pursue the truth over the lie and seek to love and serve others… friend and even enemy…
When we allow the Holy Spirit to use us to bring others to know and understand the love of God…
When we make righteous choices and set proper priorities every day…
We heap up coals ready for Satan.

In the case YHWH vs Satan
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: Job 4:18

Exhibit - A
Jesus – being the Son of God – even God himself in the form of (lesser) flesh – sought the will of the Father and was a servant unto death – a death He did not deserve.
… God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
1Timmothy 3:16

Exhibit – B
Humans – lesser beings than angels – without full knowledge and understanding of the past present or future - sought the will of the Father and desired to bring glory to God in the highest.
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8,9
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Corrintians 6:3

Verdict:
The shame and condemnation of Satan and all who follow him.

God’s will is not that we live in a fallen world where there is sickness, trouble and death – but He is with us all the time – giving us the promise of eternal life with heavenly bodies and the enormous blessing of being able to stand in His presence directly.
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:36

He does permit such things to trouble human beings – but we now live in a fallen world.

I hope this is helpful and not a hindrance.
Richard

John146
Sep 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he? Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan?He could do all those things if He wanted, but He wants to have a relationship with people and love people who choose to love Him back. He doesn't want to force anyone to repent and to love and obey Him. By doing that it wouldn't be a true relationship. A puppet master has no real relationship with his puppets.


Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?But they do know what they are rejecting.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Sold Out
Sep 16th 2008, 07:06 PM
But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he? Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan? Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?

If Adam hadn't chosen to sin, Jesus would never have had to come.

Hell was not originally created for humans....it was created for the devil and his angels. If Adam had made the right choice, then Satan and the other fallen angels would be there right now and everything would be hunky-dorey.

Remember - an honest relationship is built on freewill. You can't MAKE someone love you. God wanted an honest relationship with His first creation - the angels. He gave them the freewill as well. By the same token we have the freewill to choose to love God or not love God. It's a choice. Because of Satan's rebellion, the universe was thrown into chaos. The unfallen angels want their universe back! That is where we come in. God needed a freewill creature to make the right choice so He could restore the universe. Unfortunately Adam did not make the right choice, so the only way to redeem fallen man and to restore the universe was for God to become a man and atone for the sins of His creation.