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cdc08
Sep 16th 2008, 07:24 PM
I am a new member to this site and I accepted christ almost two years ago, since that time I have had a strogn calling on my life to study Revelation and the end times.

Now to the topic of the two witnesses, I know that alot of people feel that they will be Elijah and Moses. I agree that one will be Elijah and be his promised return, however I feel that the other will be Enoch. Simply because Elijah and Enoch are the only two humans in the history of Earth to be raptured away to heaven and never die.

I am interested to hear your opinions no matter who you think the witnesses will be. I just want to knwo why you feel the way you do so I can look mor ein to it my self.

Thanks

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 07:40 PM
You are right about Elijah and Enoch – that's a possibility

The other possibility, as you know, is Elijah and Moses:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

When Jesus was asked about Elijah, he said Elijah (John the Baptist) has already come.
(When John was asked, he didn’t claim to be Elijah.)

Nobody recognized John as Elijah, so I don’t know that we would be able to recognize Enoch or Moses either.

Still, the two witnesses will come and will speak and do as God has said.
The world will not know them – nor will they listen.
Instead, they’ll have a party and give gifts when the Antichrist has them killed.

Richard

danield
Sep 16th 2008, 07:45 PM
My thoughts on Elijah and Enoch as being the two witnesses is if they are brought back they are going to be two very old men fighting a major battle against the beast. Does time stop in heaven? What would a several thousand year old man look like? Also, if Elijah and Mosses were the two witnesses then why didn't John not call them by name in his vision? He saw them standing beside Jesus the night of his transfiguration so he knew their faces. I think they are going to be two men who have the same love for the lord as Elijah or Enoch or Mosses. But not necessarily them.

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 07:51 PM
Personally,
Moses and Elijah - the law and the prophets.

They testify to Jesus.
Mat 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if you are willing to receive, he is Elijah, the one going to come.

Richard

SoldierOfChrist
Sep 16th 2008, 07:54 PM
I would rule out Moses because of this scripture:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As we know Moses has already died and the witnesses also die and this would make Moses die twice.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

But I'm not sure it would be Elijah and Enoch or some other people not born before at all.

Michael

Mograce2U
Sep 16th 2008, 08:05 PM
There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.

Rev 11:9 seems to speak of bodies of men, but did Israel even grieve over the passing away of their covenant hope? With their priesthood & temple removed, they quickly turned to the Pharisees, and Judaism is no longer the same religion it once was.

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 08:05 PM
I would rule out Moses because of this scripture:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As we know Moses has already died and the witnesses also die and this would make Moses die twice.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

But I'm not sure it would be Elijah and Enoch or some other people not born before at all.

Michael

Yer right about dying once, Michael.
That rules out Moses. LOL

The Jews set a place at the Sader (passover table) for Elijah, but as Jesus said. Elijah has already come. ...And they (actually... the Romans) cut off his head!

That rules out Elijah. :hmm:

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 08:10 PM
There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.

Metaphorical dead bodies seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations?

vinsight4u8
Sep 16th 2008, 08:11 PM
I would say they will Enoch and Elijah. Rev. 11 refers to symbols that show people that started something will finish it. It speaks of how the two will finish their testimony. John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.
The angel described the last two woes that will come.

the temple - John saw and measured

"And there was given me a reed...."

But from the point of doing the measuring of things - John was only hearing a story by an angel.

the angel stood saying
I will give power unto my two witnesses
The angel only told how Gentiles will tread under the holy city for 42 months.

You never see where John writes as to having seen any of that.

Thus, after the angel tells about the last two woes - the 6th and 7th trumpet, he lets John know things - including that the third woe will come quickly.
The two witnesses are to rise at the same hour as the third woe earthquake.

SoldierOfChrist
Sep 16th 2008, 08:39 PM
I would say they will Enoch and Elijah. Rev. 11 refers to symbols that show people that started something will finish it. It speaks of how the two will finish their testimony. John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.

Thought I would throw out this also as it does say who will finish it.

Zechariah 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

I can't remember who is the other one is that many think will come, that is spoken of in Zechariah?

Michael

vinsight4u8
Sep 16th 2008, 08:51 PM
Zerubbabel was an example - as in being the candlestick and olive trees - as he started a job and will finish it.
Zec.4
Verse 11 speaks of two more - the two that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

the two anointed ones

Rev. 11:4
"...the two...standing before the God of the earth."


Hebrews 11 shows that Enoch was translated at the time he had a testimony.

Rev. 11:7
"And when they shall have finished their testimony..."

danield
Sep 16th 2008, 08:55 PM
John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.


Revelation 1:1-2 LT Revelation 1:1 ¶ This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, 2 who faithfully reported everything he saw.
This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone saying that Revelation was something other than a vision. However, I have always interpreted a vision as something like a dream where you witness something in your mind and have full conscience of the surroundings. I may be wrong but the following lines really indicates John was witnessing what he was seeing not just hearing.

Revelation 11:12 2 Then a loud voice from heaven called to the two prophets, "Come up here!" And they rose to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched.
I think I am correct on this being a full vision and not just an audible interpretation of what the angel told him. And certainly if John saw Mosses and Elijah he would know their faces and he did not recognize them as the two witnesses. I think the two witnesses will be two men or women of God who love him as much as the prophets as ancient days did. As we all know our bodies wear out and die but love endure all time.

1 Corinthians 13:13 3 Three things will last forever-- faith, hope, and love-- and the greatest of these is love.
These two men will have a love for God so great that it could be compared to those prophets of ancient days.

John146
Sep 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.

Rev 11:9 seems to speak of bodies of men, but did Israel even grieve over the passing away of their covenant hope? With their priesthood & temple removed, they quickly turned to the Pharisees, and Judaism is no longer the same religion it once was.Why would the beast want to kill the Law and Testimony, Robin? I think we need to let scripture interpret scripture when it comes to interpreting the two witnesses.

Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 13:1,7
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In Rev 11:7, the beast ascends to power and makes war against the two witnesses and overcomes them. In Rev 13:7, the beast ascends to power and makes war with the saints and overcomes them. Therefore, I believe the two witnesses is a symbolic reference for the saints. The two witnesses are called two candlesticks.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So, elsewhere in the very same book we see that candlesticks represent churches. They are also called two olive trees. From reading Romans 11, we can see that believing Gentiles from the wild olive tree, are grafted in with believing Jews in the good olive tree. So, it seems to me that the two witnesses is a symbolic term for the church witnessing to the world with Jew and Gentile believers of the church witnessing together. Jesus sent out His disciples two by two (Luke 10), which could account for why the church is referred to as "two witnesses". Also, it says people around the world can view their dead bodies. That is more evidence that it's not speaking of just two people, but many.

Anyway, since it refers to dead bodies which are resurrected and ascend to heaven, I can't see how it could be the Law and Testimony and that it must be referring to actual people that are killed. I believe their ascension represents the dead in Christ rising first and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before those who are alive and remain are caught up with them.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 16th 2008, 11:14 PM
Yer right about dying once, Michael.
That rules out Moses. LOL

The Jews set a place at the Sader (passover table) for Elijah, but as Jesus said. Elijah has already come. ...And they (actually... the Romans) cut off his head!

That rules out Elijah. :hmm:

There may be exceptions to the rule:

Lazarus died twice, and other have been raised from the dead.

Also those who are remain and are alive at His coming, will they have a death?

I have another question:

How will they [the two witnesses] be killed?
I mean, if it is by some physical means, would it not be possible for anyone to blast them away.
For 42 months, they are a torment for many, and it takes the beast to make war with them, and overcome them.
I would guess that it is by some spiritual power that they are slayed.

Could it be that the two witnesses are not dead, but asleep.

Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Richard H
Sep 16th 2008, 11:54 PM
There may be exceptions to the rule:

Lazarus died twice, and other have been raised from the dead.

Also those who are remain and are alive at His coming, will they have a death?

I have another question:

How will they [the two witnesses] be killed?
I mean, if it is by some physical means, would it not be possible for anyone to blast them away.
For 42 months, they are a torment for many, and it takes the beast to make war with them, and overcome them.
I would guess that it is by some spiritual power that they are slayed.

Could it be that the two witnesses are not dead, but asleep.

Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Hi Partaker,
Lazarus would be an exception. J

It’s interesting how Jesus dallied – even though He was probably not that far away –waiting until Lazarus was dead 2 days.
(Past the Jewish idea that someone “might” somehow return.)
Like the dead girl you mentioned from Matthew 9, Jesus said He was going to “wake” Lazarus up,
but then He had to clarify things and tell people that Lazarus was indeed dead. (John 11)

…However he wasn’t dead for thousands of years.



Those who survive until right before the bowls will not taste death. (…timing is my opinion, but that seems to be the sequence)
Scripture says they will be transformed – given “glorified’ bodies.
I suppose you could say that they get to pass directly from life into everlasting life.

Blast them (the witnesses) away? That’s sort of funny to me – I guess God would have to put them back together.
Scripture does say that their bodies will remain in the streets for 3 days (yes, they are actually dead) and then be raised.
The antichrist (Abaddon, the destroyer – the beast from the abyss) is allowed to kill them, so that all will be fulfilled.
Their resurrection is their final “witness” to the world.

‘Good questions. Thanks for pointing out Lazarus.

Richard

SoldierOfChrist
Sep 17th 2008, 12:57 AM
Lazarus would be an exception. J


So much for that theory! :blush:

Michael

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 01:11 AM
So much for that theory! :blush:

Michael

LOL

The thing that got me is I had "forgotten" that Jesus said Elijah had already come. So who's left?


I think yer right! It's two NEW people.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 03:04 AM
I am a new member to this site and I accepted christ almost two years ago, since that time I have had a strogn calling on my life to study Revelation and the end times.

Now to the topic of the two witnesses, I know that alot of people feel that they will be Elijah and Moses. I agree that one will be Elijah and be his promised return, however I feel that the other will be Enoch. Simply because Elijah and Enoch are the only two humans in the history of Earth to be raptured away to heaven and never die.

I am interested to hear your opinions no matter who you think the witnesses will be. I just want to knwo why you feel the way you do so I can look mor ein to it my self.

ThanksThere is only one thing of which we can be 100% certain - we're gonna hafta wait and see. Anything else is useless speculation.

And why do we keep assuming that the two witnesses are going to be ancient Bible heroes? Why can't they be two people born in their own time?

vinsight4u8
Sep 17th 2008, 03:47 AM
John did not see the two witnesses, but he did hear a story from an angel about them.
Rev. 11 - is about the last two woes.
The third woe will be the great earthquake foretold by an angel.
(the last woe)

Sometimes John sees stuff happen in Revelation, other times he just hears something.

Rev. 6:1
"And I saw..."
Rev. 7
VERSE 4
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed..."
John did not watch the numbers be told, but was only listening.
John never says that he saw any angels seal anybody.
John just knew that sealing was to be done by a group of angels and then later he heard the numbers of the sealed.

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 04:14 AM
Revelations 11:

6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.




8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered hem, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


Please tell me when the above passages have occured in history!

It hasn't happened yet! Two men will come and prophecy and plague the earth in the modern times! Please realize if you are saying that it has happened already, that the beast has also come and gone.

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 04:52 AM
Please tell me when the above passages have occured in history!

It hasn't happened yet! Two men will come and prophecy and plague the earth in the modern times! Please realize if you are saying that it has happened already, that the beast has also come and gone.

Hi Joe,
Yer right. It hasn't happened yet.

I've looked back through the thread (twice) and I don't see where anyone has used those verses. (Exact and in that order.)

I don't think anyone is saying the coming event with the two witnesses has already happened.

Richard

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 05:08 AM
Hi Joe,
Yer right. It hasn't happened yet.

I've looked back through the thread (twice) and I don't see where anyone has used those verses. (Exact and in that order.)

I don't think anyone is saying the coming event with the two witnesses has already happened.

Richard

Maybe I got overzealous then, but I believe that it will be two believers born of our generation. God can use anyone, there is no passage saying any of the "candidates" will be resurrected to prophecy.

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 06:25 AM
Maybe I got overzealous then, but I believe that it will be two believers born of our generation. God can use anyone, there is no passage saying any of the "candidates" will be resurrected to prophecy.

Michael was thinking they would be "new" witnesses too.

I think people - myself included ('til tonight) - assumed one would be Elijah, since he is supposed to return. However, Jesus said he has already come. If he's already come as John the baptist and John was beheaded, so he can't come again.

Well, I learned something from all this - the idea above - and that one should not assume, but take the whole Word into account.

Richard

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 06:53 AM
Michael was thinking they would be "new" witnesses too.

I think people - myself included ('til tonight) - assumed one would be Elijah, since he is supposed to return. However, Jesus said he has already come. If he's already come as John the baptist and John was beheaded, so he can't come again.

Well, I learned something from all this - the idea above - and that one should not assume, but take the whole Word into account.

Richard

I have thought that John the Baptist was Elijah also but I believe there is a specific passage where John says that he is not Elijah.


John 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."
John 1:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 1:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
John 1:24-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=24&end_verse=26&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 07:19 AM
I have thought that John the Baptist was Elijah also but I believe there is a specific passage where John says that he is not Elijah.


John 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."
John 1:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 1:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
John 1:24-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=24&end_verse=26&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)


So. John said he was't Elijah. That's interesting.

Jesus seemed to imply that John was Elijah.
Mar 9:11 And they asked Him, saying, Do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?
Mar 9:12 And answering, He said to them, Indeed, Elijah coming first restores all things. And how it has been written of the Son of Man that He suffer many things and be despised!
Mar 9:13 But I say to you, Elijah also has come and they did to him whatever they desired, even as it has been written of him.

I'll have to reread the Word concernig Elijah. ...tomorrow. ZZZzzz...

Hawkins
Sep 17th 2008, 08:01 AM
My answer is like this, the prophecy is somehow two-folded. It bears a standard, and it describes a scenario.


The two lampstands are Moses and Elijah, they symbolically represent the 2 series of prophets sent and to be sent. John the Baptist belongs to the Elijah series, especially to the Son of Man. Paul is thus Moses, especially to the Son of Man.

It sets a standard here for the end time prophets to follow, alternatively speaking, end time prophets are destined to follow this standard,

- They belong to either of the 2 series.
- They will die but will be raised back.
- They will confront the devil in a more direct sense (even a face to face encounter).
- They will torment the world with Truth, that some people will be driven crazy and will be more than happy to see them killed.
- They will prophesy/reveal in a period of time.


Amongst them, there will be 2 extraordinary Witnesses, and they will come just as described.

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 02:09 PM
My answer is like this, the prophecy is somehow two-folded. It bears a standard, and it describes a scenario.


The two lampstands are Moses and Elijah, they symbolically represent the 2 series of prophets sent and to be sent. John the Baptist belongs to the Elijah series, especially to the Son of Man. Paul is thus Moses, especially to the Son of Man.

It sets a standard here for the end time prophets to follow, alternatively speaking, end time prophets are destined to follow this standard,

- They belong to either of the 2 series.
- They will die but will be raised back.
- They will confront the devil in a more direct sense (even a face to face encounter).
- They will torment the world with Truth, that some people will be driven crazy and will be more than happy to see them killed.
- They will prophesy/reveal in a period of time.


Amongst them, there will be 2 extraordinary Witnesses, and they will come just as described.

‘Great insight, Hawkins!!!
I snatched your post to put in my notes. :D

I think that is what Robin was getting at, but seemed to be saying that it was ONLY metaphorical..

I guess Satan will think that he has overcome them, but then will be shown that it is he who ultimately looses.

sudds
Sep 17th 2008, 04:10 PM
I've expressed my opinion as to the identity of the 2 witnesses twice before on this forum with no comments - agreement or disagreement. I'm so convinced, that I'll say it again.

FAITH AND HOPE are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Spiritually think about it.

1. Our bodies (temple) can be an indwelling. i.e. The Holy Spirit indwells in us as Christians.
2. Love is personified i.e. God is love and indwells in us as Christians. If love can be personified, then it stands to reason that other virtues can also.
3. During the passion period, Jesus was turned over to sin. If He was turned over to sin, then He was the property of Satan (for 2 1/2 days). God forsook Jesus during this period.

II Cor 5:21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

4. Jesus was/is the only hope of salvation, and if He belonged to Satan during the passion period, then Faith and Hope were dead - everyone was in trouble (this IMO is the Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7).

I Cor 15:17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

To the spiritual world, it appeared that "Faith and Hope" were futile during the passion period. Of course, it would have been futile for everyone. The spiritual world didn't know the exact plan of God (I Pe 1:12).

5. When Jesus was resurrected and was victorious over death (Satan), then Faith and Hope were also resurrected.

In conclusion, I'm convinced that Faith and Hope are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 04:29 PM
I've expressed my opinion as to the identity of the 2 witnesses twice before on this forum with no comments - agreement or disagreement. I'm so convinced, that I'll say it again.

FAITH AND HOPE are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Spiritually think about it.

1. Our bodies (temple) can be an indwelling. i.e. The Holy Spirit indwells in us as Christians.
2. Love is personified i.e. God is love and indwells in us as Christians. If love can be personified, then it stands to reason that other virtues can also.
3. During the passion period, Jesus was turned over to sin. If He was turned over to sin, then He was the property of Satan (for 2 1/2 days). God forsook Jesus during this period.

II Cor 5:21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

4. Jesus was/is the only hope of salvation, and if He belonged to Satan during the passion period, then Faith and Hope were dead - everyone was in trouble (this IMO is the Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7).

I Cor 15:17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

To the spiritual world, it appeared that "Faith and Hope" were futile during the passion period. Of course, it would have been futile for everyone. The spiritual world didn't know the exact plan of God (I Pe 1:12).

5. When Jesus was resurrected and was victorious over death (Satan), then Faith and Hope were also resurrected.

In conclusion, I'm convinced that Faith and Hope are the two witnesses in Rev 11.




When has Faith and Hope plagued the earth and everyone rejoiced at their death?

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 04:41 PM
I've expressed my opinion as to the identity of the 2 witnesses twice before on this forum with no comments - agreement or disagreement. I'm so convinced, that I'll say it again.

FAITH AND HOPE are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Spiritually think about it.

1. Our bodies (temple) can be an indwelling. i.e. The Holy Spirit indwells in us as Christians.
2. Love is personified i.e. God is love and indwells in us as Christians. If love can be personified, then it stands to reason that other virtues can also.
3. During the passion period, Jesus was turned over to sin. If He was turned over to sin, then He was the property of Satan (for 2 1/2 days). God forsook Jesus during this period.

II Cor 5:21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

4. Jesus was/is the only hope of salvation, and if He belonged to Satan during the passion period, then Faith and Hope were dead - everyone was in trouble (this IMO is the Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7).

I Cor 15:17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

To the spiritual world, it appeared that "Faith and Hope" were futile during the passion period. Of course, it would have been futile for everyone. The spiritual world didn't know the exact plan of God (I Pe 1:12).

5. When Jesus was resurrected and was victorious over death (Satan), then Faith and Hope were also resurrected.

In conclusion, I'm convinced that Faith and Hope are the two witnesses in Rev 11.This sort of allegoricized approach to Revelation or to any part of the Bible would result in interpretive chaos. Nobody would know what anything really means.

Mograce2U
Sep 17th 2008, 04:50 PM
‘Great insight, Hawkins!!!
I snatched your post to put in my notes. :D

I think that is what Robin was getting at, but seemed to be saying that it was ONLY metaphorical..

I guess Satan will think that he has overcome them, but then will be shown that it is he who ultimately looses.
The reason I think it is metaphorical, is that it is the prophecies contained in the Law and Prophets that is being brought to bear. These 2 witnesses "speak" in that generation in which they were fulfilled. John was told to eat the little book (now open) and prophecy from it again to a different generation of people, than those to whom it was first given. I think it is pointing us back to Daniel, and the identity of the angels is similar too. Zec 4 shows us the relationship between the angels/olive trees who pour the oil into the 2 candlesticks. That means the prophecy is concerning Israel. Which I think already came to pass.

The 2 candlesticks whom Zerubbabel and Joshua were the types, concerned the prophecy of laying the foundation for the future spiritual temple of the Lord to which grace would arrive. This is the prophecy that is coming to its fullness. Jesus was the Prophet that Moses spoke was coming (Deut 18:15), and John the Baptist was the Elijah Malachi foretold. Both of who were killed, bringing their blood upon this city. It is about the coming of the kingdom of God and the end of the old system which concludes the prophecy, and fulfills Daniel's 70th week which was split in two at the cross.

Judah was going to have 40 yrs during which they would see the work of God:

(Micah 7:15 KJV) According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvellous things.

The last 3 1/2 years of which would see the destruction of the harlot city.

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 05:02 PM
I've expressed my opinion as to the identity of the 2 witnesses twice before on this forum with no comments - agreement or disagreement. I'm so convinced, that I'll say it again.

FAITH AND HOPE are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Spiritually think about it.

1. Our bodies (temple) can be an indwelling. i.e. The Holy Spirit indwells in us as Christians.
2. Love is personified i.e. God is love and indwells in us as Christians. If love can be personified, then it stands to reason that other virtues can also.
3. During the passion period, Jesus was turned over to sin. If He was turned over to sin, then He was the property of Satan (for 2 1/2 days). God forsook Jesus during this period.

II Cor 5:21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

4. Jesus was/is the only hope of salvation, and if He belonged to Satan during the passion period, then Faith and Hope were dead - everyone was in trouble (this IMO is the Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7).

I Cor 15:17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

To the spiritual world, it appeared that "Faith and Hope" were futile during the passion period. Of course, it would have been futile for everyone. The spiritual world didn't know the exact plan of God (I Pe 1:12).

5. When Jesus was resurrected and was victorious over death (Satan), then Faith and Hope were also resurrected.

In conclusion, I'm convinced that Faith and Hope are the two witnesses in Rev 11.




That (faith and hope) is the essence of the good news. You have that right, Suds.

However, these are final witnesses - testifying against the evil on the Earth. Those whose hearts are so hardened that they will not listen and repent.

And God knows it.

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 05:12 PM
The reason I think it is metaphorical, is that it is the prophecies contained in the Law and Prophets that is being brought to bear. These 2 witnesses "speak" in that generation in which they were fulfilled. John was told to eat the little book (now open) and prophecy from it again to a different generation of people, than those to whom it was first given. I think it is pointing us back to Daniel, and the identity of the angels is similar too. Zec 4 shows us the relationship between the angels/olive trees who pour the oil into the 2 candlesticks. That means the prophecy is concerning Israel. Which I think already came to pass.

Hi Robin,
Israel (and even the world by now) has been told in the past.
I think this is speaking of that which is yet to come. (after the time of John)

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:1

Being told the last time and final time - they will be without excuse.

Richard

Mograce2U
Sep 17th 2008, 05:19 PM
Hi Robin,
Israel (and even the world by now) has been told in the past.
I think this is speaking of that which is yet to come. (after the time of John)

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:1

Being told the last time and final time - they will be without excuse.

RichardIf we fully grasp what the judgment that did come upon Israel was all about, we are in a better place to see what the deception of Satan's little season entails. The history of the churches which began with 7 actual churches in Revelation shows how we have headed in the same direction that plagued Israel. The RCC still stands in our day as a monument as to what Christian idolatry looks like. Much like the Mosque on the temple mount does in Jerusalem. The players are all in place.

(1 Pet 4:17 KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

If Revelation is not about the events that befell Jerusalem in 70AD then what type is there for us to understand what we face? It is a letter for the churches...

Richard H
Sep 17th 2008, 05:51 PM
If we fully grasp what the judgment that did come upon Israel was all about, we are in a better place to see what the deception of Satan's little season entails. The history of the churches which began with 7 actual churches in Revelation shows how we have headed in the same direction that plagued Israel. The RCC still stands in our day as a monument as to what Christian idolatry looks like. Much like the Mosque on the temple mount does in Jerusalem. The players are all in place.

(1 Pet 4:17 KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

If Revelation is not about the events that befell Jerusalem in 70AD then what type is there for us to understand what we face? It is a letter for the churches...

I totally agree about the RCC. The historical and present day leadership, I would add, has been infiltrated by pagan elements and even doctrine - all with “Christian” labels.
All of which is unseen (in general) even by Protestants and others.

I was raised RCC as a child and rejected it (not for those reasons) long before coming to Christ.
Many good people have been led astray thinking they are in accordance with the will of God.

This is true of the RCC, some of the early churches and now most churches of today.

Just recently I saw a sermon being delivered, and on the wall behind the pastor was a stained glass Eye of Horus.
(Like the Masonic all seeing eye on the dollar bill.)
I doubt that he realized what it really was. This is the sort of pagan infiltration I hate.


All that aside –
Modern people tend to want to “explain” the natural means behind such things as the Red Sea.
They never touch the several partings of the Jordan River.

Certainly there’s metaphor and symbolism throughout Scripture – consistent with what God has done and will do.

The new heavens and the new Earth and even life-eternal are not metaphorical.
At some point God is going to bring these about, and we will see that not everything in the NT is metaphorical.

God actually is able to bring about what He has said.

Richard

Hawkins
Sep 19th 2008, 03:16 AM
‘Great insight, Hawkins!!!
I snatched your post to put in my notes. :D



I don't know how to respond to this. So thanks very much for reading my post.

God Bless You.:)