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Coptichristian
Sep 16th 2008, 08:01 PM
The Purifying Flames of Hell



That “hellfire” is purifying is evident considering the following verses:

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Mark 9:47-49

Here we see that “every one” shall be salted with unquenchable fire. To be “salted with fire” means, among other things, to be tested and tried and purified.

“Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.” Luke 3:17

Here we read that the unquenchable fire is the agent by which Christ purges His people. It is hellfire which Christ came to baptize us with. As with any refining process, this purging is accomplished via destruction of that in us which is impure, i.e. the chaff.

It is of interest to note that both the baptismal fire of Christ and His shed blood are said to purge us, evidence that the second death is none but the death of the second Adam:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:14

That the lake of fire purifies sinners via destroying sin is evident when one takes into account the lexical range of the Greek words theion (sulfur/brimstone) and basanizos (torment) as well as considering the imagery of divine fire which, throughout the Bible, has purificatory connotations (see Psalms 12:6; Zechariah 13:9; Malachi 3:2; and Matthew 3:12).

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…” Revelation 14:10

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, theion Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that theion was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined theion as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "theia," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "theion.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb theioo thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that theion is the neuter singular of the adjective theios, which means "divine." Theios is, of course, derived from theos, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

Now, etymology alone is not sufficient in determining the way a word is used in any given context, but when one couples these lexical facts with the contextual imagery of divine fire, one is reminded of the common Biblical attestation that God is a purifying fire. It is evident, then, that to be “tormented with fire and brimstone” is to be tried and purified by divine fire. Indeed, this is a central theme in the Book of Revelation:

“I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” Revelation 3:18

“And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones.” Revelation 12:18,19

The New City of God has its analog in the Garden of Eden, for both refer to places of purity wherein God resides, and both are places that are fortified by divine fire which prevents sinful man from entering. The only way to return to Paradise is to be purified by fire. That is to say, one must die with Christ by being baptized by the Holy Spirit and fire; The old man must be slain by the flaming swords of the Cherubim in order for the new man to be raised and be restored.

Now, in order to raised into the newness of Christ’s life, one must first die to their sinful Adamic nature (Mark 10:21; Romans 6:4; 1 Corinthians 15:36). This death is a much different kind of death than Adamic death. The Cross is, in fact, the undoing of the sin and death that is wrought in is through Adam (Ephesians 2:16; 2 Timothy 1:10). Seeing that sin and death are destroyed in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:!4), it follows that to die the second death is to die the death of the second Adam.

Bladers
Sep 16th 2008, 08:21 PM
Is the fear of endless torment the only thing keeping your depraved soul from committing these sins? Indeed, you are free to be as evil as you wish, but you will suffer the consequences. God is not mocked: We will all reap what we sow. I, for one, do not have any desire to suffer God's purifying judgments. You make light of them, but why?

I believe in hell.

Excuse me, but how does beliving that Christ will succeed in His mission to save everyone lead people to hell? What sort of convoluted logic have you succumbed to?


You totally missed what i said from the other post, what you believe right now are driving millions of souls to hell. Look at what you believe. And i repeat, no scripture listed above supports it. Lets look at the first one later...


But, One Question for you, have you read the whole books of the gospel(Matt, Mark, Luke, John) and addition to that, the book of Acts? Not only what you say drive millions to hell, but it is blasphemy.

Jesus baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with Fire (fire of the Holy Spirit) for service, not with hellfire.
What fellowship has darkness with light?

I am really serious with this because millions have gone to hell because preachers started preaching, all goes to heaven and there is no hell.

Look at the scriptures you have posted, all of them talks about something else. None supports your theory or your belief!

Coptichristian
Sep 16th 2008, 08:44 PM
You totally missed what i said from the other post, what you believe right now are driving millions of souls to hell.

What is the logic behind your claim? I believe that Christ came to defeat evil and to save all humanity. I believe that He will succeed. I believe that God will destroy all death and darkness. How does beliving this lead people to hell?


But, One Question for you, have you read the whole books of the gospel(Matt, Mark, Luke, John) and addition to that, the book of Acts?

Yes.


Not only what you say drive millions to hell, but it is blasphemy.

I see that you are able to make these claims, but are you able to substantiate them? Can you actually address the arguments put forth in my opening post?



Jesus baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with Fire (fire of the Holy Spirit) for service, not with hellfire.


Please address the evidence I provided that suggests that hellfire is nonebut Christ's baptismal fire. Please don't pretend that I didn't provide any reasoning in support of my readings.


What fellowship has darkness with light?

What's your point?


I am really serious with this because millions have gone to hell because preachers started preaching, all goes to heaven and there is no hell.


Did you read my opening post? I believe there is a hell. You claim that my belief has lead millions to hell. Please explain.


Look at the scriptures you have posted, all of them talks about something else.

What do they talk about if not what I have attributed to them? Can you get your hands dirty and have a real discussion with me?

Bladers
Sep 16th 2008, 09:11 PM
Ok i will get my hands stained deeply once again...

Well first, what i mean is this. There are preachers and pastors that are preaching that every one goes on heaven, and none goes to hell. And that hell is like something God wanted to scare us with O-o. People believe this and go ahead and SIN, thinking that no one goes to hell, millions are trapped in hell right this second because of this!

Second, in Mark 9:37-50; Jesus said it is better for us to cut off one of our eyes then for both of them to be cast into everlasting fire, He meant what he meant. He is trying to show us something, He was not saying to us to cut off one hand for it to be purified by fire and will be cleaN!

1)HELL FIRE IS A PLACE!


Luke 16:22 - "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.

23 - In hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:20-30;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25636a)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 - So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 - "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 - And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 - "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Jesus Knew what he was talking about, Hell is a place of torment, not a place where you get purified. Even the rich man said "'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'" Thats Hell fire for you.

Now look carefully, i really want you to change your mind!

Rev 21:7 - If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:7 - Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The scriptures said, only those whose names are written in the Lamb book of life. So once you enter the lake of fire, you cant come out!

Coptichristian
Sep 16th 2008, 09:35 PM
Well first, what i mean is this. There are preachers and pastors that are preaching that every one goes on heaven, and none goes to hell. And that hell is like something God wanted to scare us with O-o.


I am no such preacher. I believe in hell and I believe that all sin must be punished. Moreover, I am not like the millions of Evangelicals who believe that a Christian's sins will go unpunished. I respect God's justice, my friend.


Second, in Mark 9:37-50; Jesus said it is better for us to cut off one of our eyes then for both of them to be cast into everlasting fire, He meant what he meant. He is trying to show us something, He was not saying to us to cut off one hand for it to be purified by fire and will be cleaN!

You ignored what I said in the OP. Take a closer look at this passage.

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Mark 9:47-49

Here we see that “every one” shall be salted with unquenchable fire. To be “salted with fire” means, among other things, to be tested and tried and purified.


1)HELL FIRE IS A PLACE!


Luke 16:22

Let's stop right there for a moment. By "hellfire" I am talking about the lake of fire, not Hades. The parable of Dives and Lazarus does not speak about the lake of fire, but of Hades.


Jesus Knew what he was talking about, Hell is a place of torment, not a place where you get purified.

There is torment involved in purification. To be purged of sin involves pain. Moreover, the Greek word translated "torment" in the lake of fire passages is basanizos. Interestingly, Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal." But you knew this, seeing that I quoted it in my first post. You would do well to actually address my points from the OP rather than making me repeat myself.



The scriptures said, only those whose names are written in the Lamb book of life. So once you enter the lake of fire, you cant come out!

In John’s vision, anything that is outside of the Kingdom is in the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15). However, John is clear in proclaiming that people will enter the Kingdom from the outside. Those in the lake of fire have the opportunity to wash their robes and access the tree of life (22:14). The very Nations which are to be tormented with fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:10) will one day enter into the Kingdom (21:24-26); the very Nations which are to be smitten by God’s judgments will be healed by the Tree of Life (22:2).

Please try harder at engaging in a thoughtful discussion.

Clay Blucher
Sep 16th 2008, 09:43 PM
Actually Church tradition matches up quite well with the original poster's position. Traveling the line of thought from Scripture, the early Fathers did envisage a cleansing of fire for the believers as well. I do not believe they once refer to this Hell, but something more akin to the Spirit of God. (Although when one considers the two, the Spirit of God cleansing could be considered hellish by some, but certainly Hell is indeed the Spirit of God extracting justice upon unbelievers.) The Orthodox call this purification theosis, while the RCC calls it Purgatory. I personally believe the Methodist position is closer to the truth, as stated by Wesley, since we do go through a process of dying to one's own self everyday, until the day that we are perfected. (While in theory one might become perfect by God's grace before they die, even unto death of the sinful nature, it is quite unlikely to happen, as even Wesley said.) This type of perfection is of course our end-goal, and of course initiated by God through the Holy Spirit which we know by Scripture manifests Himself as fire. The purification by fire is indeed something that relys on Scripture and tradition. Again, relying upon Wesleyan principles, those two along with reason and experience makes it hard to argue against. The idea that we must be perfected by the Holy Spirit is reasonable and something that we all experience in individual ways, although none of us have experienced the ultimate perfection that comes when we are given resurrected bodies.

mcgyver
Sep 16th 2008, 10:12 PM
I am no such preacher. I believe in hell and I believe that all sin must be punished. Moreover, I am not like the millions of Evangelicals who believe that a Christian's sins will go unpunished. I respect God's justice, my friend.

You ignored what I said in the OP. Take a closer look at this passage.

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Mark 9:47-49

Here we see that “every one” shall be salted with unquenchable fire. To be “salted with fire” means, among other things, to be tested and tried and purified.

Let's stop right there for a moment. By "hellfire" I am talking about the lake of fire, not Hades. The parable of Dives and Lazarus does not speak about the lake of fire, but of Hades.

There is torment involved in purification. To be purged of sin involves pain. Moreover, the Greek word translated "torment" in the lake of fire passages is basanizos. Interestingly, Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal." But you knew this, seeing that I quoted it in my first post. You would do well to actually address my points from the OP rather than making me repeat myself.

In John’s vision, anything that is outside of the Kingdom is in the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15). However, John is clear in proclaiming that people will enter the Kingdom from the outside. Those in the lake of fire have the opportunity to wash their robes and access the tree of life (22:14). The very Nations which are to be tormented with fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:10) will one day enter into the Kingdom (21:24-26); the very Nations which are to be smitten by God’s judgments will be healed by the Tree of Life (22:2).

Please try harder at engaging in a thoughtful discussion.


If you are a member of the Coptic church, then I understand that this is what the tradition teaches...

However, the passages you posted are both out of context and can not be used to support this most untenable stand.

These are many of the same arguments used by the RCC in their doctrines of "Mortal" and "Venial" sin.

To say that a Christian's sins will be punished by a period of time in a place of fire is to deny both the efficacy and sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice upon the cross; and to ignore vast portions of both OT and NT scripture which teach that through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ we have been justified by faith.

Justification is a work of God, whereby He declares that the born again Christian is righteous in His sight by faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21-26 (NKJV Emphasis mine)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 8:31-34 (NKJV Emphasis mine)

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

These are just a few verses that speak of this justification. I urge you to study that foundational tenant of the Christian faith.

Bladers
Sep 16th 2008, 10:22 PM
I am no such preacher. I believe in hell and I believe that all sin must be punished. Moreover, I am not like the millions of Evangelicals who believe that a Christian's sins will go unpunished. I respect God's justice, my friend.


Ok now that i understand you, but still you are looking at this the wrong way. you dont actually or your church i guess believe that The lake of fire is a fire for cleansing sin. But what you really believe is that there is a second chance after death.

But there isnt, There is no more chance after death to accept Jesus Christ. That is why there is a judgement!

The KJV of Rev 22:14 actually says "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

We all enter from the out side! and only to those who keep His commandment, who are clean, who are spot less.

In NIV it says "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

Those who wash their robes on earth with the blood of Jesus, while still alive. Not in the afterlife you cant, not from the lake of fire.

There is no second chance
Rev 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Those in the lake of fire will be tormented forever, this scripture is saying that in the great trib, those who received the mark of the beast shall drink of the same wine of the wrath of God and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

Lets continue...
Rev 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.



Now this verse is talking about those who refuse the mark of the beast and keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. For in those days after the rapture, it will be hard for people to keep the faith of Jesus. Those who refuse in those days shall be beheaded by the antichrist. Verse 13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:", Look carefully it says 'dieth in the Lord', 'that they may rest'. In those days there shall be no rest!

BroRog
Sep 16th 2008, 11:04 PM
The Purifying Flames of Hell



That “hellfire” is purifying is evident considering the following verses:

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Mark 9:47-49

Here we see that “every one” shall be salted with unquenchable fire. To be “salted with fire” means, among other things, to be tested and tried and purified.

“Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.” Luke 3:17

Here we read that the unquenchable fire is the agent by which Christ purges His people. It is hellfire which Christ came to baptize us with. As with any refining process, this purging is accomplished via destruction of that in us which is impure, i.e. the chaff.

It is of interest to note that both the baptismal fire of Christ and His shed blood are said to purge us, evidence that the second death is none but the death of the second Adam:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:14

That the lake of fire purifies sinners via destroying sin is evident when one takes into account the lexical range of the Greek words theion (sulfur/brimstone) and basanizos (torment) as well as considering the imagery of divine fire which, throughout the Bible, has purificatory connotations (see Psalms 12:6; Zechariah 13:9; Malachi 3:2; and Matthew 3:12).

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…” Revelation 14:10

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, theion Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that theion was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined theion as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "theia," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "theion.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb theioo thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that theion is the neuter singular of the adjective theios, which means "divine." Theios is, of course, derived from theos, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

Now, etymology alone is not sufficient in determining the way a word is used in any given context, but when one couples these lexical facts with the contextual imagery of divine fire, one is reminded of the common Biblical attestation that God is a purifying fire. It is evident, then, that to be “tormented with fire and brimstone” is to be tried and purified by divine fire. Indeed, this is a central theme in the Book of Revelation:

“I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” Revelation 3:18

“And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones.” Revelation 12:18,19

The New City of God has its analog in the Garden of Eden, for both refer to places of purity wherein God resides, and both are places that are fortified by divine fire which prevents sinful man from entering. The only way to return to Paradise is to be purified by fire. That is to say, one must die with Christ by being baptized by the Holy Spirit and fire; The old man must be slain by the flaming swords of the Cherubim in order for the new man to be raised and be restored.

Now, in order to raised into the newness of Christ’s life, one must first die to their sinful Adamic nature (Mark 10:21; Romans 6:4; 1 Corinthians 15:36). This death is a much different kind of death than Adamic death. The Cross is, in fact, the undoing of the sin and death that is wrought in is through Adam (Ephesians 2:16; 2 Timothy 1:10). Seeing that sin and death are destroyed in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:!4), it follows that to die the second death is to die the death of the second Adam.

I take issue with the interpretations of the passages you quoted.

In the Mark 9 passage, I take note of the contrast between the "Kingdom of God" and "hell fire." By contrast, Jesus suggests, a man would rather be in the Kingdom of God rather than hell fire. Given this to be the case, he posits, the man may be faced with a choice, to lose an eye and enter the kingdom, or to keep both eyes and enter hell. In this we understand that the fire is applied, not to those entering the kingdom, but to those entering hell.

In Luke 3:17 I notice also that the chaff enters the fire, not the wheat. In this parable, the thing to be preserved is kept from the fire. The thing to be disposed is put into the fire. Rather than the fire acting as a purification agent, it acts to reduce the rubble to ashes.

With regard to Revelation 14:10, though the TDNT lists the Greek term "basanizo" as having the meaning, "to test metals with the touchstone", this usage does not appear in the entire NT. The most common meaning is "torture", or "torment", which would be the appropriate response from an angry God.

In Revelation 3, I take note of the fact that it is the gold that is put into the fire, which Jesus offers to the church at cost. (Buy from me.) In this metaphor, rather than a person being put into a fire, a metal is put into a fire. The gold is being purified, not the person. This seems to echo Peter's analogy between a faith that is tested with trials and a metal that is purified in the smelter.

IPet2_9
Sep 18th 2008, 04:07 AM
I also disagree with the fires of Hell being purifying, generally speaking. The purifying fire, such as you see with Ezekiel, Isaiah, or John, is a Heavenly fire, and different. Although God may use Satan at times to strengthen us, such as with Paul or Job.

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 04:17 AM
Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

It just doesn't say that anyone gets out.