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legoman
Sep 17th 2008, 06:55 PM
Maybe someone can help me out here.

I'm trying to figure out how Revelations 11:15, Revelations 22:5, don't contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

Revelations 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelations 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The verses in Revelations say Christ will reign forever and ever, but verse 25 of 1 Corinthians implies Christ's reign will end.

:hmm:


Any thoughts?

Legoman

John146
Sep 17th 2008, 07:53 PM
Maybe someone can help me out here.

I'm trying to figure out how Revelations 11:15, Revelations 22:5, don't contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

Revelations 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelations 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The verses in Revelations say Christ will reign forever and ever, but verse 25 of 1 Corinthians implies Christ's reign will end.

:hmm:


Any thoughts?

LegomanChrist reigns now over His kingdom, which is not of this world (John 18:36). At His coming, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and then they will reign together forever.

Rev 22
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

RogerW
Sep 17th 2008, 08:02 PM
Christ reigns now over His kingdom, which is not of this world (John 18:36). At His coming, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and then they will reign together forever.

Rev 22
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Greetings Eric,

This is something so many fail to realize...Christ is reigning NOW and believers are reigning with Him. It is not a physical reign over a physical kingdom, but a spiritual reign over His spiritual kingdom. When we are raised to spiritual life; i.e. born again, our reign with Christ begans. This reign is likened to 1000 years and symbolizes the fullness of time. So, Christ and all who are or will be saved reign spiritually with Christ in time NOW, and in the fullness of time; i.e. the end of 1000 years, we will reign with Christ in His eternal kingdom outside of time or throughout eternity.

Excellent response Eric.

Blessings,
RW

legoman
Sep 17th 2008, 08:52 PM
Thanks for the replies so far.

Good point about Christ reigning now, but I believe 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is talking about Christ's reign after the resurrection.

RogerW, a question for you: Are you saying there is no true millenium after the resurrection, but the millenium represents Christ's spiritual reign right now? That maybe what is tripping me up. I always understood that there would be a millenium (either a literal 1000 years or just a long period of time) when we would reign with Christ after the resurrection.

Anyway I'm trying to figure out the timeline between 1 Corinth 15 and Revelations. Here is what I believe is the timeline:

1 Corinthing 15:23 This corresponds to the resurrection.
....
then the millenium would happen
....
then the GWT judgement and the lake of fire - I'm a bit fuzzy on the order here. This would correspond to verses 24-26 of 1 Corinth 15. Verse 26 (the last enemy destroyed is death) corresponds to death being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14.
...
Then Christ's reign would come to an end verses 25-28, ultimately with everything (including Christ himself) being put under God.


This is why I raised the original post. Revelations talks about reigning forever and ever. John, I agree John Rev 22:5 says "they" ie. God and Jesus - but then we have the problem of where Christ's reign "ends" (sometime in 1 Corinth 15:25-28) and he is ultimately put under God. I believe 1 Corinth 15:28 "God is all in all" is the final end of everything.

Let me know if you think I am way off here.

Legoman

9Marksfan
Sep 17th 2008, 09:01 PM
Why do you think Christ's reign will come to an end? The use of "until" in Scripture does not always mean that something will stop thereafter. It just means that Christ MUST reign because He is COMMITTED to putting ALL His enemies under His feet - and He MUST reign in order to do so - and once they are defeated - He keeps on reigning, as Rev 11:5 says!

legoman
Sep 17th 2008, 09:26 PM
Why do you think Christ's reign will come to an end? The use of "until" in Scripture does not always mean that something will stop thereafter. It just means that Christ MUST reign because He is COMMITTED to putting ALL His enemies under His feet - and He MUST reign in order to do so - and once they are defeated - He keeps on reigning, as Rev 11:5 says!


Good point.

To me the use of "until" implies it ends, especially combined with the fact that Christ is put under God in verse 28. I suppose it could be interpreted that once God is "all in all", he is still reigining, which would include Christ and everything under God. Not sure.

Anyway, what did you think of my timeline? Especially with respect to where the millenium & the corresponding verses between 1 corinth 15 and revelations?

9Marksfan
Sep 17th 2008, 10:37 PM
Good point.

To me the use of "until" implies it ends, especially combined with the fact that Christ is put under God in verse 28. I suppose it could be interpreted that once God is "all in all", he is still reigining, which would include Christ and everything under God. Not sure.

Anyway, what did you think of my timeline? Especially with respect to where the millenium & the corresponding verses between 1 corinth 15 and revelations?

Sorry, I'm with RogerW here - amillennialist and becoming increasingly so as I see more and more dificulties that premills get into.

Revelation is a picture book of symbolic language - the numbers themselves are symbolic - why should the 1000 years be singled out as literal when the other numbers and images are (correctly) viewed as symbolic?

Can I suggest you get Kim Riddlebarger's book A Case For Amillennialism? Really excellent - down-to-earth (yet heavenly at the same time!) and very biblical.

legoman
Sep 17th 2008, 10:53 PM
Sorry, I'm with RogerW here - amillennialist and becoming increasingly so as I see more and more dificulties that premills get into.

Revelation is a picture book of symbolic language - the numbers themselves are symbolic - why should the 1000 years be singled out as literal when the other numbers and images are (correctly) viewed as symbolic?

Can I suggest you get Kim Riddlebarger's book A Case For Amillennialism? Really excellent - down-to-earth (yet heavenly at the same time!) and very biblical.

Ah ok - no problem. I guess my view is more the millenium will begin when Christ returns and the resurrection happens. Not sure if that is post or pre millenial. Though I don't necessarily believe it will be 1000 years either. That could be a symbol as you suggest. But I do think it will be a long "age".

I will look into it further, and thanks for the book reference.

Back to the OP, do you agree that the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 correspond to specific points in Revelations? ie. verse 26 "the last enemy destroyed is death" corresponds to death being thrown in the lake of fire in Rev 20:14?

livingword26
Sep 17th 2008, 11:11 PM
I am having a hard time believing that the Devil is bound, and in the pit at the present time.


Rev 20:2-3
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

livingword26
Sep 17th 2008, 11:23 PM
If we are going to believe that we are now in the 1000 year rein with Christ, then that means the first ressurection has already taken place, as well as Satan being bound

2 Tim 2:18
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
KJV

Rev 20:4-7

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 12:11 AM
Sorry, I'm with RogerW here - amillennialist and becoming increasingly so as I see more and more dificulties that premills get into.

Revelation is a picture book of symbolic language - the numbers themselves are symbolic - why should the 1000 years be singled out as literal when the other numbers and images are (correctly) viewed as symbolic?

Can I suggest you get Kim Riddlebarger's book A Case For Amillennialism? Really excellent - down-to-earth (yet heavenly at the same time!) and very biblical.

I don't believe that number is symbolic, nor is it being singled out. Here are some other numbers in Revelation

Rev 21:16-17
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Rev 19:4
(4) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 7:4
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:16
(16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:13
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Thats just a small sampling. There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and no reason to try to say the 1000 years is not literal, except to keep it from disproving a doctrine, that I can see.

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 12:18 AM
1Co 15:23-26
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


I believe that this is referring to the riegn of Christ in heavenlies, while he destroys His enemies, then He hands the Kindom over to His Father. (But I could be wrong)

1Co 15:28

(28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

RoadWarrior
Sep 18th 2008, 12:28 AM
Moving thread to ETC.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:09 AM
Ah ok - no problem. I guess my view is more the millenium will begin when Christ returns and the resurrection happens. Not sure if that is post or pre millenial.

Premillennial. But are you "Historic" or "Dispensational"?!?


Though I don't necessarily believe it will be 1000 years either. That could be a symbol as you suggest. But I do think it will be a long "age".

If it hasn't begun already, we do have a few theological problems about who runs the universe post-Christ's resurrection!


I will look into it further, and thanks for the book reference.

No problem. It's all the more interesting in that Riddlebarger started out as a Dispensationalist for many years.


Back to the OP, do you agree that the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 correspond to specific points in Revelations? ie. verse 26 "the last enemy destroyed is death" corresponds to death being thrown in the lake of fire in Rev 20:14?

Yes.

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:10 AM
I am having a hard time believing that the Devil is bound, and in the pit at the present time.


Rev 20:2-3
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

How could anyone be freed from his grip (ie saved) unless he were bound? How keen is he to let his captives (us) go?

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:11 AM
If we are going to believe that we are now in the 1000 year rein with Christ, then that means the first ressurection has already taken place, as well as Satan being bound

2 Tim 2:18
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
KJV

Rev 20:4-7

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV

I believe that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the souls of the dead to go to glory (the intermediate state after we die).

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:13 AM
I don't believe that number is symbolic, nor is it being singled out. Here are some other numbers in Revelation

Rev 21:16-17
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Rev 19:4
(4) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 7:4
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:16
(16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:13
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Thats just a small sampling. There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and no reason to try to say the 1000 years is not literal, except to keep it from disproving a doctrine, that I can see.

It's apocalyptic writing, common in that time - numbers were frequently used in that style and always symbolically - how about 666?

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 11:14 AM
Moving thread to ETC.

:eek: Oh no! Danger territory for me! ;)

RogerW
Sep 18th 2008, 02:32 PM
Thanks for the replies so far.

Good point about Christ reigning now, but I believe 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is talking about Christ's reign after the resurrection.

RogerW, a question for you: Are you saying there is no true millenium after the resurrection, but the millenium represents Christ's spiritual reign right now? That maybe what is tripping me up. I always understood that there would be a millenium (either a literal 1000 years or just a long period of time) when we would reign with Christ after the resurrection.

Hi Legoman,

The resurrection referenced in 1Co 15 is the bodily resurrection in the fullness or end of time. Time is no more! How can there be a thousand years of time after we are bodily resurrected since time no longer exists?
See Jo 6:39,40,44

Paul tells us "then cometh the end" (1Co 15:24). What end? Vs 52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:" When does the last trump sound?

Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Anyway I'm trying to figure out the timeline between 1 Corinth 15 and Revelations. Here is what I believe is the timeline:

1 Corinthing 15:23 This corresponds to the resurrection.
....
then the millenium would happen

Again, the millenium symbolizes time; i.e. 1000 years. After we are resurrected bodily time is no more. Eternity in bodily form begins. Our eternal reign with Christ in wholeness of both body and soul begins when we are bodily resurrected at the last trump, or in the end of time. Before we are bodily resurrected we reign spiritually with Christ until the last day.



then the GWT judgement and the lake of fire - I'm a bit fuzzy on the order here. This would correspond to verses 24-26 of 1 Corinth 15. Verse 26 (the last enemy destroyed is death) corresponds to death being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14.

Do you believe there are two separate Judgments? In vs 26 "the last enemy destroyed is death", is speaking of physical death. Christ has already defeated death, when He was resurrected from the grave. We see in Christ's death two resurrections. The first is spiritual when He says to the Father, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:" (Lu 23:46), and the second was bodily, evidenced by the empty tomb, and by those who saw Him. The death and hell cast into the lake of fire is physical death and the grave.



This is why I raised the original post. Revelations talks about reigning forever and ever. John, I agree John Rev 22:5 says "they" ie. God and Jesus - but then we have the problem of where Christ's reign "ends" (sometime in 1 Corinth 15:25-28) and he is ultimately put under God. I believe 1 Corinth 15:28 "God is all in all" is the final end of everything.

As Nigel has already pointed out, Christ's reign never ends. Instead His reigning with the Father and all of the saints is complete, or seen in its fullness in the end of time.



Let me know if you think I am way off here.

I think you have honest questions that are much the same as the ones I too once had. Premill is a very popular doctrine, and widely embraced because of its popularity. But premill runs into many problems, like the one we are discussing...i.e. how can time (1000 years) come after the resurrection since time is no more?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 18th 2008, 02:49 PM
I am having a hard time believing that the Devil is bound, and in the pit at the present time.

But how is the devil bound? Is he literally bound in sense that he can do no harm? Or is he bound in the sense that he can no longer deceive the nations as he had done before the cross? As Nigel has said, how can any be saved if the devil is not bound?

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since Christ defeated the devil through His sacrificial death, all who become saved are freed from the bondage of fear and death we were once held in through the power of the devil.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 18th 2008, 03:01 PM
If we are going to believe that we are now in the 1000 year rein with Christ, then that means the first ressurection has already taken place, as well as Satan being bound

That's right! And since Satan is bound the kingdom of God can be completed. That's why we read:

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Prior to the cross and Satan's binding, Satan was able to take the word away from those who did not understand, but now Christ, having bound Satan has sent His Holy Spirit to guide us unto all understanding.

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Satan is the strong man, and this world is his. So Christ must first bind the strong man, Satan, then He can cast out devils and deliver His own into the kingdom of God.

Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 18th 2008, 03:03 PM
I don't believe that number is symbolic, nor is it being singled out. Here are some other numbers in Revelation

Christ says that no one knows when He will come again. If the 1000 years is not symbolic, it would be possible to discover exactly when He will come again.

Blessings,
RW

John146
Sep 18th 2008, 07:33 PM
Thanks for the replies so far.

Good point about Christ reigning now, but I believe 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is talking about Christ's reign after the resurrection.

RogerW, a question for you: Are you saying there is no true millenium after the resurrection, but the millenium represents Christ's spiritual reign right now? That maybe what is tripping me up. I always understood that there would be a millenium (either a literal 1000 years or just a long period of time) when we would reign with Christ after the resurrection.

Anyway I'm trying to figure out the timeline between 1 Corinth 15 and Revelations. Here is what I believe is the timeline:

1 Corinthing 15:23 This corresponds to the resurrection.
....
then the millenium would happen
....
then the GWT judgement and the lake of fire - I'm a bit fuzzy on the order here. This would correspond to verses 24-26 of 1 Corinth 15. Verse 26 (the last enemy destroyed is death) corresponds to death being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14.
...
Then Christ's reign would come to an end verses 25-28, ultimately with everything (including Christ himself) being put under God.

This is why I raised the original post. Revelations talks about reigning forever and ever. John, I agree John Rev 22:5 says "they" ie. God and Jesus - but then we have the problem of where Christ's reign "ends" (sometime in 1 Corinth 15:25-28) and he is ultimately put under God. I believe 1 Corinth 15:28 "God is all in all" is the final end of everything.

Let me know if you think I am way off here.

LegomanLet's take a closer look at 1 Cor 15:22-28.

1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

We see here that Christ is the firstfruits because He was the first to be resurrected from the dead and have an immortal body. At His coming, we too will be resurrected (if we are dead when He comes, anyway) and we all (including the those who are still alive - 1 Cor 15:51-54) will be changed and have immortal bodies. What does it say next? Then comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to the Father. It doesn't say then comes the reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years or a long period of time and then the end comes after that. No. It just says the end comes when Christ comes. His coming coincides with the end of the age (Matt 24).

It says He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. Notice the present tense: He must reign. Paul was implying that He was already reigning at the time and other scripture confirms this as other scripture talks about Him being exalted at the right hand of the Father waiting for all of His enemies to be made His footstool (Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42-43, Acts 2:34-35, Heb 10:12-13).

The last enemy to be defeated is death. When is death defeated? We can read further in 1 Cor 15 to find out.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It is when Christ returns at the last trump when we are all changed and put on immortality that "death is swallowed up in victory". If death is swallowed up in victory, is it not defeated? Paul is referencing the prophecy from Isaiah 25:8, which also happens to be quoted in Revelation 21:4, which says there will be no more death at the time when the new heavens and new earth appear. This places the appearing of the new heavens and new earth around the same time of the changing of our bodies, which we know occurs when Christ returns.

If there was going to be a millennial age between Christ's coming and the time when all enemies would be under His feet, why do you supposed Paul would have left out such an important detail as that? I don't believe he would have done that. It's worth noting that Jesus Himself also had nothing to say about an earthly millennial kingdom.

Eric

legoman
Sep 18th 2008, 08:10 PM
Premillennial. But are you "Historic" or "Dispensational"?!?


Ack! So many labels... (legoman runs off to wikipedia)... ok - Yes - Historic Premillennial. No pre-trib rapture. And I'm not sure about the "tribulation" being limited to the end days, seems there has been tribulation throughout all of history.

As you can probably tell, I'm a bit new to some of the schools of thought on this.



If it hasn't begun already, we do have a few theological problems about who runs the universe post-Christ's resurrection!
Interesting - I'm not sure why you say that exactly. Doesn't God just run the universe? What is the "theological problem" you speak of?

legoman
Sep 18th 2008, 08:41 PM
I think you have honest questions that are much the same as the ones I too once had. Premill is a very popular doctrine, and widely embraced because of its popularity. But premill runs into many problems, like the one we are discussing...i.e. how can time (1000 years) come after the resurrection since time is no more?

Many Blessings,
RW

Thanks for your explanation Roger, now I can see a bit more where you are coming from.

Some of this crosses over to that other thread where we were discussing about when a person enters the Kingdom of heaven... ie. immediately at death or only at the resurrection.

Now I see how that ties in. Of course I still think that when you die, you are dead until Christ's return, so that would put a damper on amillennialism for me. :) That's neither here nor there though, as I'm just trying to understand all the different possible positions.

As per your answers to livingword26, I also don't see how Satan could be bound and not "deceiving all nations" right now. Seems like there are many people and many nations deceived, no?

As for the people who do become believers - well God is still supreme. If he doesn't want Satan to deceive someone, God will stop him. I see what you are saying when you say "Satan is the strong man, and the world is his". True, but God is still the ultimate authority, and Satan can do nothing to stop God's plan, correct?

If you could expand on this more, from the amillenialist view, that would be helpful.

Cheers,
Legoman

9Marksfan
Sep 18th 2008, 09:34 PM
Ack! So many labels... (legoman runs off to wikipedia)... ok - Yes - Historic Premillennial. No pre-trib rapture. And I'm not sure about the "tribulation" being limited to the end days, seems there has been tribulation throughout all of history.

I think there is a lot to be said for the Historic Premillenial position - esp the post-trib doctrine - but I still think Amill is the one that harmonises best with all the passages.


As you can probably tell, I'm a bit new to some of the schools of thought on this.

In some ways, so am I! For years, I was a "panmillennialist" - it will all pan out in the end! But then I realised that was a bit of a cop out and that end times scriptures are just as important as any other and a stance should be taken.


Interesting - I'm not sure why you say that exactly. Doesn't God just run the universe? What is the "theological problem" you speak of?

It's the idea that Christ's reign on Earth won't start until the millennium - but He said "ALL authority in Heaven AND EARTH has been given to me"!

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 11:35 PM
It's apocalyptic writing, common in that time - numbers were frequently used in that style and always symbolically - how about 666?

Your assertion that all the numbers in Revelation (such as the ones I listed) are your opinion only, which I respect, but disagree with.

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 11:38 PM
But how is the devil bound? Is he literally bound in sense that he can do no harm? Or is he bound in the sense that he can no longer deceive the nations as he had done before the cross? As Nigel has said, how can any be saved if the devil is not bound?

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since Christ defeated the devil through His sacrificial death, all who become saved are freed from the bondage of fear and death we were once held in through the power of the devil.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Many Blessings,
RW


The nations are being deceived now more than ever. Entire denominations are falling away into universalism and legalism. Doctrines of demons are springing up faster than you can count them. The devil is definitely still deceiving the nations.

livingword26
Sep 18th 2008, 11:50 PM
Christ says that no one knows when He will come again. If the 1000 years is not symbolic, it would be possible to discover exactly when He will come again.

Blessings,
RW

I think that the time (that no one knew) He was referring to there was the time when He came back to reign and rule for a thousand years:

Mat 24:36
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Because later in the verse, He says this.


Mat 24:37-42
(37) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


This is a verse that the rapture folks like to use, and I am undecided about that, but when it is talking about one being taken and another being left, it cannot be talking about the end, because there is no mention of judgment.

faroutinmt
Sep 18th 2008, 11:59 PM
Christ reigns now over His kingdom, which is not of this world (John 18:36). At His coming, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and then they will reign together forever.

Rev 22
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Nice work! Comparing scripture with scripture is the way to go.

faroutinmt
Sep 19th 2008, 12:02 AM
Greetings Eric,

This is something so many fail to realize...Christ is reigning NOW and believers are reigning with Him. It is not a physical reign over a physical kingdom, but a spiritual reign over His spiritual kingdom. When we are raised to spiritual life; i.e. born again, our reign with Christ begans. This reign is likened to 1000 years and symbolizes the fullness of time. So, Christ and all who are or will be saved reign spiritually with Christ in time NOW, and in the fullness of time; i.e. the end of 1000 years, we will reign with Christ in His eternal kingdom outside of time or throughout eternity.

Excellent response Eric.

Blessings,
RW

Amen! Finally, I'm not in the major minority in this line of belief.

livingword26
Sep 19th 2008, 01:11 AM
I believe that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the souls of the dead to go to glory (the intermediate state after we die).

If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 03:46 AM
Thanks for your explanation Roger, now I can see a bit more where you are coming from.

Some of this crosses over to that other thread where we were discussing about when a person enters the Kingdom of heaven... ie. immediately at death or only at the resurrection.

Greetings Legoman,

We don't go to heaven when we are bodily resurrected in the fullness of time. Our heavenly reign is in spirit only. When we reign bodily with the Lord it will be on the new heavens and new earth. This is called the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



As per your answers to livingword26, I also don't see how Satan could be bound and not "deceiving all nations" right now. Seems like there are many people and many nations deceived, no?

Satan is still able to deceive, no doubt about that! However he is no longer able to take the Word from the hearts of those who will be saved. He cannot keep the elect of God from coming into the kingdom. While it is true that Satan can only do what God permits, you would have to agree that prior to Christ and the cross very few (only the remnant) came into the kingdom. After the cross we find a great multitude that no man can number. This clearly shows us how effective is the work of Christ at the cross. Now we understand the purpose of the cross. It wasn't that God could not, or did not save His chosen elect remnant before the cross, but that Christ on the cross would be the means of salvation for the whole world. Prior to Christ coming, salvation was limited to a single nation, and a few Gentiles, but now salvation is unto all who believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 03:55 AM
The nations are being deceived now more than ever. Entire denominations are falling away into universalism and legalism. Doctrines of demons are springing up faster than you can count them. The devil is definitely still deceiving the nations.

Greetings livingword,

This is true! However salvation is now available to all the nations of the world. Prior to the cross salvation was limited to the Jews and a few Gentiles (the remnant). Even though the devil is still deceiving much of the world, the kingdom of God is being built, and will be completed. Satan, try as he will, cannot prevent Christ from building His Eternal Kingdom. All of this deception, false doctrine, anti-christs are being used by God for His glory and the believer's good. But we have the Lord's assurance that it is not possible to deceive His elect.

Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 04:11 AM
I think that the time (that no one knew) He was referring to there was the time when He came back to reign and rule for a thousand years:

When Christ comes it is at the last day (Jo 6). How can there still be more time (a thousand years) to come since Christ's coming is the last day?



Mat 24:37-42
(37) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This is a verse that the rapture folks like to use, and I am undecided about that, but when it is talking about one being taken and another being left, it cannot be talking about the end, because there is no mention of judgment.

Just as in the days of Noah, God preserved Noah and his family, so too when Christ comes again the wicked will be taken, or severed from the just, cast into outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. While believers will be spared or left. The Lord sends His angels in the fullness of time to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity (Mt. 13:41). So those taken are the unrighteous, and those left are the righteous.

Many Blessings,
RW

TrustingFollower
Sep 19th 2008, 04:16 AM
RogerW,

I have not spent much time in the end times forum so your posts have me looking at a few things. If Christ has indeed already returned why then are we still in corruptible bodies? 1 Cor 15 says we inherent incorruptible bodies and last time I checked my body is far from being incorruptible. So if you can explain how that works into your theory I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
TF

wpm
Sep 19th 2008, 05:10 AM
If we are going to believe that we are now in the 1000 year rein with Christ, then that means the first ressurection has already taken place,

You should consider the following.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begottenprootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”




as well as Satan being bound


The binding of Satan relates to a spiritual curtailment that was placed on him through Christ’s work on the Cross allowing the Gospel to invade the Gentile nations. Christ released the Gentiles (ethnos) from a spiritual prison and placed Satan and his minions in it. This is speaking spiritually. The prison that once held the Gentile people enslaved has now been graciously open. Those that would avail of Christ's invitation are instantly and wholly set free. Jesus clearly said, in John 8:36, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

wpm
Sep 19th 2008, 05:14 AM
I don't believe that number is symbolic, nor is it being singled out. Here are some other numbers in Revelation

Rev 21:16-17
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Rev 19:4
(4) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 7:4
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:16
(16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:13
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Thats just a small sampling. There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and no reason to try to say the 1000 years is not literal, except to keep it from disproving a doctrine, that I can see.

It doesn't actually say one thousand yrs as you suggest.

If you insist in interpreting 1,000 years literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

wpm
Sep 19th 2008, 05:19 AM
The nations are being deceived now more than ever. Entire denominations are falling away into universalism and legalism. Doctrines of demons are springing up faster than you can count them. The devil is definitely still deceiving the nations.

Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favoured nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epi-centre of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna. Christ’s assault upon the kingdom of darkness was clearly not dependent upon man or built upon physical might. Only a handful of Israelites were found faithful when Christ came to this nation to confront the kingdom of darkness. However, through His earthly ministrty and through Christ’s substitutionary death, the Lord once and for all defeated Satan and brought-to-nought the tremendous remit of the devil’s influence. The work of the Cross in this passage is in the past tense – thus the phrase “was manifested.” In essence, Calvary instigated the beginning of the end for Satan, causing his extensive influence and power to be curtailed.

livingword26
Sep 19th 2008, 10:30 AM
Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favoured nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epi-centre of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna. Christ’s assault upon the kingdom of darkness was clearly not dependent upon man or built upon physical might. Only a handful of Israelites were found faithful when Christ came to this nation to confront the kingdom of darkness. However, through His earthly ministrty and through Christ’s substitutionary death, the Lord once and for all defeated Satan and brought-to-nought the tremendous remit of the devil’s influence. The work of the Cross in this passage is in the past tense – thus the phrase “was manifested.” In essence, Calvary instigated the beginning of the end for Satan, causing his extensive influence and power to be curtailed.

The apostles Paul, and Peter, doesn't seem to agree. Paul calls him the god of this world, and Peter calls him a roaring lion.

2Co 4:3-5
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(5) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


1Pe 5:8
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

livingword26
Sep 19th 2008, 10:37 AM
It doesn't actually say one thousand yrs as you suggest.

If you insist in interpreting 1,000 years literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

In the verse we are discussion, the greek word for "thousand" and the word for "years" don't seem to have a figurative context, according to Strongs. However the word for "hour" seems to have a very flexible, figurative application.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

G2094
ἔτος
etos
et'-os
Apparently a primary word; a year: - year.


G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 03:14 PM
RogerW,

I have not spent much time in the end times forum so your posts have me looking at a few things. If Christ has indeed already returned why then are we still in corruptible bodies? 1 Cor 15 says we inherent incorruptible bodies and last time I checked my body is far from being incorruptible. So if you can explain how that works into your theory I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
TF

Greetings TF,

You misunderstand. Though Christ certainly came to establish His kingdom, and make Himself an offering for sin, He has not yet come in to gather His redeemed. When we become saved we are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. Therefore the first resurrection is Spiritual. 1Co 15 speaks of our bodily resurrection after Christ comes again. This will happen in the fullness of time, the last day, and this is when we will receive our glorified incorruptible bodies.

Many Blessings,
RW

wpm
Sep 19th 2008, 03:33 PM
In the verse we are discussion, the greek word for "thousand" and the word for "years" don't seem to have a figurative context, according to Strongs. However the word for "hour" seems to have a very flexible, figurative application.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

G2094
ἔτος
etos
et'-os
Apparently a primary word; a year: - year.


G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

You impose your opinion on this figure a thousand and state as fact that it is literal. I believe this is an error and totally ignores the constant figurative usage of this number throughout Scripture. Again, it doesn't say one thousand yrs as you intimate.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 03:42 PM
The apostles Paul, and Peter, doesn't seem to agree. Paul calls him the god of this world, and Peter calls him a roaring lion.

2Co 4:3-5
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(5) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


1Pe 5:8
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:Yes, but what do the following scriptures say about his status after as compared to before the cross?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Colossians 2
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Ephesians 2
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

What passages like this show is that before Christ's sacrifice on the cross, a vast majority of the people of the world were in bondage to the fear of death, which Satan had the power over, and they were "without Christ", "aliens", "strangers", had "no hope", and were "without God in the world". But the sacrifice of Christ on the cross changed all of that. Satan no longer could keep the world in almost complete spiritual darkness as he had before. He was restrained from being able to keep people from having a relationship with God. The gospel went out into the world by the power of the Holy Spirit and Satan could not stop it. Christ has been destroying the works of the devil ever since. Christ came to bind the strong man and spoil his goods and his house (Matt 12:28-29).

Despite how things look in our world today, no one can deny the tremendous impact Christ's sacrifice has had on the world up to this point. Now, both amils and premils believe things get worse before Christ's return. Maybe we're already in that time that premils would call the great tribulation and amils would call Satan's little season. It's hard to say for sure.

But what isn't hard to see is that Christ did bind Satan at the cross, but whether that binding of Satan is the same as the binding spoken about in Revelation 20 is where premil and amil part ways. I just don't see that it implies that the phrase "deceive the nations" means "deceive anyone at all". I believe it has to do with Satan deceiving the nations before the cross and keeping them in spiritual darkness and "without God in the world".

Eric

wpm
Sep 19th 2008, 03:45 PM
The apostles Paul, and Peter, doesn't seem to agree. Paul calls him the god of this world, and Peter calls him a roaring lion.

2Co 4:3-5
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(5) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


1Pe 5:8
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

It is simply talking about the restraint upon Satan that prevents him stopping the Gospel going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). After the resurrection of Christ the Gospel invaded the Gentile nations in an unprecedented move of God. For the first time ever Satan was dislodged from his vile reign in countless lives. This has continued for near 2,000 yrs. Premil imports a meaning into Rev 20 that cannot in any way be supported by any other passage. The devil is in a spiritual prison that does not negate movement but which has very clear boundaries.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 03:46 PM
In the verse we are discussion, the greek word for "thousand" and the word for "years" don't seem to have a figurative context, according to Strongs. However the word for "hour" seems to have a very flexible, figurative application.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

G2094
ἔτος
etos
et'-os
Apparently a primary word; a year: - year.


G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.Why do you say that when we can see that the Greek word for "thousand" used in Rev 20, chilioi, is plural? So, in actuality, it's saying they would reign with Christ for thousands (plural) of years. And, as Paul (wpm) showed, the word thousand is used figuratively several times in scripture.

Raybob
Sep 19th 2008, 06:14 PM
But what isn't hard to see is that Christ did bind Satan at the cross, but whether that binding of Satan is the same as the binding spoken about in Revelation 20 is where premil and amil part ways. I just don't see that it implies that the phrase "deceive the nations" means "deceive anyone at all". I believe it has to do with Satan deceiving the nations before the cross and keeping them in spiritual darkness and "without God in the world".

Eric

Amen Eric. That word "nations" as used in Rev. 20 came from the same Greek word that is usually translated to mean "gentiles" elsewhere in the NT. Since the cross, the "gentlies" are no longer deceived.

Raybob

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 01:13 AM
Amen Eric. That word "nations" as used in Rev. 20 came from the same Greek word that is usually translated to mean "gentiles" elsewhere in the NT. Since the cross, the "gentlies" are no longer deceived.

Raybob


Except of course for the Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, new agers, atheists, and pagens.

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 01:33 AM
You should consider the following.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."



If this is saying that Jesus only is the first resurrection spoken of in:

Rev 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Then no one else is safe from the second death.




Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”



See Above





Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begottenprootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”



See below




Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

See bold below:

1Co 15:20-23
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.





The binding of Satan relates to a spiritual curtailment that was placed on him through Christ’s work on the Cross allowing the Gospel to invade the Gentile nations. Christ released the Gentiles (ethnos) from a spiritual prison and placed Satan and his minions in it. This is speaking spiritually. The prison that once held the Gentile people enslaved has now been graciously open. Those that would avail of Christ's invitation are instantly and wholly set free. Jesus clearly said, in John 8:36, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."Most of the nations, and some of the people in all the nations are stilll deceived. That is a fact that cannot be argued.

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 02:31 AM
Why do you say that when we can see that the Greek word for "thousand" used in Rev 20, chilioi, is plural? So, in actuality, it's saying they would reign with Christ for thousands (plural) of years. And, as Paul (wpm) showed, the word thousand is used figuratively several times in scripture.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 02:52 AM
If this is saying that Jesus only is the first resurrection spoken of in:

Rev 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Then no one else is safe from the second death.

See Above

See below

See bold below:

1Co 15:20-23
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Most of the nations, and some of the people in all the nations are stilll deceived. That is a fact that cannot be argued.

I think you need to read the wording of Revelation 20:6. We all experience Christ upon salvation. In conversion we identify with Him, we have our part in Him. Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (or) echo méros in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

When a Christian gets saved they identify with Christ and experience the reality of the first resurrection. The Lord’s victory over sin, death and the grave through His sinless life, substitutionary death and glorious resurrection secured the eternal deliverance of all those that would put their trust in Christ. Christ’s encounter with death followed by His victory over the same was on behalf of God’s redeemed. He was man’s federal head or representative – taking upon Himself the penalty and judgment due to sinful man. In salvation, the sinner enters into the merits, effect and blessing of that transaction – thus partaking in the outcome by faith.

1 Corinthians 15:14 & 17 makes clear: “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

Why? Christ’s resurrection secured our salvation. Christ took upon Himself our sin (being made sin for us). He was punished for our sin. He also conquered our sin paying the full penalty for it on Calvary’s tree. We no longer pay for it. God is satisfied with the transaction that was wrought on our behalf. In fact, by defeating the grave He won our spiritual freedom. Christ’s resurrection is the essential part of our victory over eternal death (the second death). What is more: it in turn secures are participation in the resurrection of the just.

1 Peter 3:21 witnesses: “baptism (talking about being baptised into Christ upon salvation) doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Jesus is therefore the first resurrection. Our part in Him through regeneration means hell has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He rose we rose.

The reality of this great truth is summed up in Christ’s words in John 14:19-20: “because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”

In treading the path He did, Christ secured something that sinful man could never obtain. All those that come to Christ enter into all the eternal benefits that He secured on their behalf. The redeemed have their portion “in Him.” and therefore spiritually partake in “the first resurrection.” The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 02:56 AM
G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

I have showed you above that this is a figurative term. Maybe you would address my response to your literalist argument.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 03:29 AM
Perhaps you are prepared to throw the bible figurative terms. I am not prepared to do that at this time. What do you think of the six days of creation? Literal or symbolic?

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 04:00 AM
Perhaps you are prepared to throw the bible figurative terms. I am not prepared to do that at this time. What do you think of the six days of creation? Literal or symbolic?

Are you not going to answer these legitimate enquiries?

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 04:31 AM
Are you not going to answer these legitimate enquiries?

Actually I did. I said that I am not prepared to assume that the bible is not literal first. I am not prepared to do a bible study on the 13 verses you listed this evening, to determine if any of them are exagerations or literal truths. We must assume that Gods word means what it says, unless there are specific reasons not to (other than to prove a doctrine).

Here is a bit more interesting info. The hebrew word for thousand in the OT is not quite as concrete as the one in revelation we were looking at:

H505
אלף
'eleph
eh'-lef
Properly the same as H504; hence (an ox’s head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand: - thousand.

I noticed you did not list any new testament verses in your queary. As I look through all of the times 1000 was used in the gospels and epistles, I cannot see any that look figurative to me. But perhaps I missed something. Any, care to give your opinion on literal or figurative creation?

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 04:35 AM
I noticed you did not list any new testament verses in your queary. As I look through all of the times 1000 was used in the gospels and epistals, I cannot see any that look figurative to me. But perhaps I missed something. Any, care to give your opinion on literal or figurative creation?

Maybe you would furnish us with all the allusions to a thousand in the gospels.

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbour the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (vv 5-9).

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 04:58 AM
Maybe you would furnish us with all the allusions to a thousand in the gospels.

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbour the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (vv 5-9).

Thats not figurative. It shows God is not bound or affected by time. A thousand years is as a day. They are both the same to Him. That is why they used a contrast like a thousand years to one day, because there is such a huge literal difference between them.


Matt 14:21
21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
KJV

Matt 15:38
38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
KJV


Matt 16:9-10
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand , and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand , and how many baskets ye took up?
KJV


Matt 18:24
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
KJV


Mark 5:13
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand ;) and were choked in the sea.
KJV


Mark 6:44
44 And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
KJV


Mark 8:9
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand : and he sent them away.
KJV


Mark 8:19-20
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand , how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand , how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
KJV


Luke 9:14
14 For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
KJV


Luke 14:31
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand ?
KJV


John 6:10
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand .
KJV


Acts 2:41
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
KJV


Acts 4:4
4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand .
KJV


Acts 19:19
19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
KJV


Acts 21:38
38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
KJV


Rom 11:4
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
KJV


1 Cor 4:15
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
KJV


1 Cor 10:8
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand .
KJV


1 Cor 14:19
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV


2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV


Rev 5:11
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand , and thousands of thousands;
KJV


Rev 7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand .
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand .
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand .
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand .
KJV


Rev 9:16
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
KJV


Rev 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
KJV


Rev 11:13
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand : and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
KJV


Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV


Rev 14:1
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand , having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV


Rev 14:3
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand , which were redeemed from the earth.
KJV


Rev 14:20
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
KJV


Rev 20:2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV

Are you an theistic evolutioner, or an old earth creationist? I think that's and important question.

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 02:47 PM
Actually I did. I said that I am not prepared to assume that the bible is not literal first. I am not prepared to do a bible study on the 13 verses you listed this evening, to determine if any of them are exagerations or literal truths. We must assume that Gods word means what it says, unless there are specific reasons not to (other than to prove a doctrine).

Here is a bit more interesting info. The hebrew word for thousand in the OT is not quite as concrete as the one in revelation we were looking at:

H505
אלף
'eleph
eh'-lef
Properly the same as H504; hence (an ox’s head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand: - thousand.

I noticed you did not list any new testament verses in your queary. As I look through all of the times 1000 was used in the gospels and epistles, I cannot see any that look figurative to me. But perhaps I missed something. Any, care to give your opinion on literal or figurative creation?

Greetings livingword,

You assume the thousand years is literal, and yet future. I presented an argument against this assumption here #35 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1793715&postcount=35) that you have not responded to. Can you show how the thousand years, that clearly represents time, can be literal and future since Scripture indicates that Christ comes on the "last day"? If it is the last day, at the last trump when Christ returns, and we are resurrected on the last day...does not the "last day" mean that literal time is no more? How can there be yet a thousand years of "literal time" since literal time has ended?

Many Blessings,
RW

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 03:48 PM
Thats not figurative. It shows God is not bound or affected by time. A thousand years is as a day. They are both the same to Him. That is why they used a contrast like a thousand years to one day, because there is such a huge literal difference between them.


Matt 14:21
21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
KJV

Matt 15:38
38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
KJV


Matt 16:9-10
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand , and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand , and how many baskets ye took up?
KJV


Matt 18:24
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
KJV


Mark 5:13
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand ;) and were choked in the sea.
KJV


Mark 6:44
44 And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
KJV


Mark 8:9
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand : and he sent them away.
KJV


Mark 8:19-20
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand , how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand , how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
KJV


Luke 9:14
14 For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
KJV


Luke 14:31
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand ?
KJV


John 6:10
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand .
KJV


Acts 2:41
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
KJV


Acts 4:4
4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand .
KJV


Acts 19:19
19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
KJV


Acts 21:38
38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
KJV


Rom 11:4
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
KJV


1 Cor 4:15
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
KJV


1 Cor 10:8
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand .
KJV


1 Cor 14:19
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV


2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV


Rev 5:11
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand , and thousands of thousands;
KJV


Rev 7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand .
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand .
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand .
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand . Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand .
KJV


Rev 9:16
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
KJV


Rev 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
KJV


Rev 11:13
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand : and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
KJV


Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV


Rev 14:1
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand , having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV


Rev 14:3
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand , which were redeemed from the earth.
KJV


Rev 14:20
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
KJV


Rev 20:2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV

Are you an theistic evolutioner, or an old earth creationist? I think that's and important question.

Do you have any corroboration from any other Scripture mentioning a literal one thousand years of a millennial age after the return of Christ? After all, this is the second greatest age we have supposedly known???

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 05:44 PM
Greetings livingword,

You assume the thousand years is literal, and yet future. I presented an argument against this assumption here #35 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1793715&postcount=35) that you have not responded to. Can you show how the thousand years, that clearly represents time, can be literal and future since Scripture indicates that Christ comes on the "last day"? If it is the last day, at the last trump when Christ returns, and we are resurrected on the last day...does not the "last day" mean that literal time is no more? How can there be yet a thousand years of "literal time" since literal time has ended?

Many Blessings,
RW

Could you be more specific with the verses you are referring to, then I'll see if I can respond to it.

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 05:56 PM
Do you have any corroboration from any other Scripture mentioning a literal one thousand years of a millennial age after the return of Christ? After all, this is the second greatest age we have supposedly known???

The verse says it is 1000 years. It does not need to be proven that the bible means what it says. If it does not mean what it says, that needs to be proven. Revelation 20 refers to the 1000 years 6 times. I will say again, that if we are in the millennial rein, that many other things have already happened, such as this:

Rev 13:11-17
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The mark of the beast has already been given and no one can by or sell without this mark. This happened before the millennial reign started according to the above verses.

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 06:14 PM
The verse says it is 1000 years. It does not need to be proven that the bible means what it says. If it does not mean what it says, that needs to be proven. Revelation 20 refers to the 1000 years 6 times. I will say again, that if we are in the millennial rein, that many other things have already happened, such as this:

Rev 13:11-17
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The mark of the beast has already been given and no one can by or sell without this mark. This happened before the millennial reign started according to the above verses.

Can I remind you it doesn't say 'one thousand' as you keep stating but an indefinite "thousand." You can put 'one' before it but it simply isn't in the text.

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 06:45 PM
Can I remind you it doesn't say 'one thousand' as you keeping stating but an indefinite "thousand." You can put 'one' before it but it simply isn't in the text.


What is says is a thousand. Not two thousand, or many thousands, or untold thousands, or unknown thousands, but a thousand.

livingword26
Sep 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
The verse says it is 1000 years. It does not need to be proven that the bible means what it says. If it does not mean what it says, that needs to be proven. Revelation 20 refers to the 1000 years 6 times. I will say again, that if we are in the millennial rein, that many other things have already happened, such as this:

Rev 13:11-17
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The mark of the beast has already been given and no one can by or sell without this mark. This happened before the millennial reign started according to the above verses.

Anyway, back to this. Are you saying that the "mark" of the beast has already been given? If so, how do you explain the verses above? If not, your theory falls apart.

wpm
Sep 20th 2008, 08:11 PM
What is says is a thousand. Not two thousand, or many thousands, or untold thousands, or unknown thousands, but a thousand.

Psalm 50:10-11 declares,“For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”

Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Please answer this.

A thousand has always been used in an indefinite way to describe a large amount or a long period of time, just like an hour can represent a short period of time. If you consider the passages I furnished you with above and the ignored questions you will see that this figure has been around for a long time as a general symbol.

English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language. In fact, the phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text. Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavours starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 12:49 AM
Psalm 50:10-11 declares,“For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”

Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Please answer this.

A thousand has always been used in an indefinite way to describe a large amount or a long period of time, just like an hour can represent a short period of time. If you consider the passages I furnished you with above and the ignored questions you will see that this figure has been around for a long time as a general symbol.

English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language. In fact, the phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text. Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavours starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

Proving that the word thousand can be used figuratively (by the way I noticed that you aren't using any new testament references) is the least of your problems with this doctrine, and it certainly doesn't prove all references to the word are figurative (Particularly in the NT where most or all are literal.)


Anyway, back to this. Are you saying that the "mark" of the beast has already been given? If so, how do you explain the verses above? If not, your theory falls apart.

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 01:27 AM
Proving that the word thousand can be used figuratively (by the way I noticed that you aren't using any new testament references) is the least of your problems with this doctrine, and it certainly doesn't prove all references to the word are figurative (Particularly in the NT where most or all are literal.)

I have noticed that you don't actually answer any questions. I thought this is exactly what discussion is all about.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 03:21 AM
I have noticed that you don't actually answer any questions. I thought this is exactly what discussion is all about.

I have answered more questions than you have on this thread. I am just not interested in being led down whatever path you are trying to lead me down. I have posted scripture after scripture after scripture that conflicts with the present millennial reign theory, and none of them have been addressed. So in my opinion, sparring about whether one word is literal or figurative is incidental.

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 03:28 AM
I have answered more questions than you have on this thread. I am just not interested in being led down whatever path you are trying to lead me down. I have posted scripture after scripture after scripture that conflicts with the present millennial reign theory, and none of them have been addressed. So in my opinion, sparring about whether one word is literal or figurative is incidental.

Where is your corroboration for this literal one thousand yrs concept from Rev 20? You have produced nothing from what I can see.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo (Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The setting and the demon possessed man was simply an opportunity for Christ to articulate a deep spiritual truth. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’. The house that Christ was referring to was the kingdom of darkness. He shows this when He said: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand.”

The house is the kingdom of darkness, and the goods are the ungodly that belong to that kingdom. The house here is not speaking of an individual but an abode of which the Jews accused Christ of belonging to. They suggested that his power came “by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” They insinuated that Christ was from Satan, not God. Christ showed that if He was part of the same kingdom as the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s kingdom was divided. The devil’s house was split in two. The opposite was of course the truth. He was of another kingdom – the kingdom of God. What Jesus was saying here was: the strongman – who rules this house (kingdom) – had to be bound before Christ could plunder this house and acquire his goods.

That is why He concluded: “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was showing that He was not of Satan’s house (kingdom). He was of another house – He was of the kingdom of heaven. What is more, He was demonstrating how He had to bind Satan in order to effectively enter into his house and “spoil his goods.”

To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the incursion into the devil’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and translated him into newness of life. Christ has being doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to His death. Christ identifies the casting out of devils with the binding of the strong man. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and locates his binding at the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not curtail this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ. The chains that were placed on the devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God was plundering his house.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 04:04 AM
1
Though you have replied to this verse, you still have not said that the nations are not being decieved, they are now more than ever. The gospel is being distorted and denied, even by the "church". And frankly, being bound and locked in a pit is really quite clear in its portayal of the inability of Satan to influence humanity at all.

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

2
Also, Paul refers to Satan as the "god of this world". If the millenial reign already began, it did so after Paul wrote to the Corinthians. This is yet more proof of Satans deception.

3
If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.[/quote]


4
And of course, there is just where it is spelled out in plain language.

Rev 20:6-8
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 04:20 AM
1
Though you have replied to this verse, you still have not said that the nations are not being decieved, they are now more than ever. The gospel is being distorted and denied, even by the "church". And frankly, being bound and locked in a pit is really quite clear in its portayal of the inability of Satan to influence humanity at all.

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

2
Also, Paul refers to Satan as the "god of this world". If the millenial reign already began, it did so after Paul wrote to the Corinthians. This is yet more proof of Satans deception.

3
If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


4
And of course, there is just where it is spelled out in plain language.

Rev 20:6-8
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(1) You don't put a spiritual being in a physical prison.

(2) Incarceration does not denote non-movement, simply limitation of movement. That is what has happened to Satan.

(3) Satan is the god of this world, but not mine.

I John 2:15 says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

James 4:4 agrees, saying, “know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 04:27 AM
1
Though you have replied to this verse, you still have not said that the nations are not being decieved, they are now more than ever. The gospel is being distorted and denied, even by the "church". And frankly, being bound and locked in a pit is really quite clear in its portayal of the inability of Satan to influence humanity at all.

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

2
Also, Paul refers to Satan as the "god of this world". If the millenial reign already began, it did so after Paul wrote to the Corinthians. This is yet more proof of Satans deception.

3
If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


4
And of course, there is just where it is spelled out in plain language.

Rev 20:6-8
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When the Old Testament prophets predicted that the Gentiles would be enlightened that didn't mean that every Gentile would be saved, no, it simply meant that the wall of complete deception would be removed. This is what Revelation 20 is saying. Before the cross the Gentiles sat in darkness, after the cross they don't. This passage is simply telling us that they can come onto Christ like the Jews could before the cross. Satan cannot stop that. Satan is rather spiritually curtailed in stopping the enlightenment of the nations. The “whosoever believeth” can come onto Christ today and there is nothing that the devil can do about that. That is what the binding of Satan is. The binding of Satan commenced with the earthly ministry of Christ and the revelation of the kingdom of God, although the legal enforcement of that restraint was only fully realised at the cross.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord was instigated by the scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry (during His earthly ministry) as a work of Satan. Christ’s response confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not a reality that will only appear after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 04:44 AM
(1) You don't put a spiritual being in a physical prison.

(2) Incarceration does not denote non-movement, simply limitation of movement. That is what has happened to Satan.



You say Satan is just limited. The scripture says he is cast him into the bottomless pit,and shut him up, and set a seal upon him. I'm going to believe the scripture




(3) Satan is the god of this world, but not mine.

I would think that the god of this world would have the power to decieve, wouldn't you. Not much of a god if he can't.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 04:47 AM
When the Old Testament prophets predicted that the Gentiles would be enlightened that didn't mean that every Gentile would be saved, no, it simply meant that the wall of complete deception would be removed.

The god of this world has blinded those who believe not, so that they cannot believe in the gospel of Christ. That's quite a deception if you ask me.

2Co 4:3-4
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 03:19 PM
Mark 3:11, 23-27 records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord was instigated by the scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry (during His earthly ministry) as a work of Satan. Christ’s response confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not a reality that will only appear after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.



Sounds like the devil got in this mans house to me.

Luk 8:26-35
(26) And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.
(27) And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and wore no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
(28) When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
(29) (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he broke the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
(30) And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
(31) And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
(32) And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
(33) Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
(34) When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.
(35) Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 03:21 PM
And of course there is still this:

If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


And of course, there is just where it is spelled out in plain language.

Rev 20:6-8
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Raybob
Sep 21st 2008, 05:46 PM
And of course there is still this:

If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

If that were true. There is only one resurrection day where dead people rise. This is spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28 to name a few. The "first" resurrection speaks of the day when we are born again. We were spiritually dead in our sins and trespasses until we came to life through Christ. Then we received our spiritual crowns and reign on our spiritual thrones with the King. :pp THAT is the "first" resurrection which makes the second death no harm to us.

livingword26
Sep 21st 2008, 07:12 PM
If that were true. There is only one resurrection day where dead people rise. This is spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28 to name a few. The "first" resurrection speaks of the day when we are born again. We were spiritually dead in our sins and trespasses until we came to life through Christ. Then we received our spiritual crowns and reign on our spiritual thrones with the King. :pp THAT is the "first" resurrection which makes the second death no harm to us.

Care to address the verses that went along with the post you quoted?

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 07:24 PM
You say Satan is just limited. The scripture says he is cast him into the bottomless pit,and shut him up, and set a seal upon him. I'm going to believe the scripture

I think you need to look at the usage of the word "bind" in Scripture. Also, you need to look at what the binding of Satan in Scripture involved when Christ did it at His first Advent. Finally, the phrase "the bottomless pit" is actually the abyss (abussos), and the attached language, as the whole book of Rev, is heavily symbolic. You can press a hyper-literal meaning of these phrases but I care to think that Satan is not a literal dragon or snake!



I would think that the god of this world would have the power to decieve, wouldn't you. Not much of a god if he can't.


The Gentiles are without excuse today. The Gospel has saturated the nations. That is all this alludes to. Again, where is your corroboration for placing this binding after the Second Coming? I await your biblical support.

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 07:28 PM
The god of this world has blinded those who believe not, so that they cannot believe in the gospel of Christ. That's quite a deception if you ask me.

2Co 4:3-4
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The Gospel is open to the nations today, the veil of darkness has been lifted. Countless millions of Gentiles now believe in Jesus. Those that reject the Gospel do it wilfully.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyssand a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (or deo Strong’s 1210) him a thousand years, And cast (or ballo Strong’s 906) him into the abyss (or abussos Strong’s 12) and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

It is patently obvious with the most basic perusal of Revelation that it is engulfed in symbolism, allegory and spiritual applications. Revelation 20 is located in the midst of these surroundings. In fact, no other book in Scripture is as symbolic. A lot of man’s own concepts, ideas and theories are imported into Revelation 20 that don’t actual exist in the text. It is as notable what Revelation 20 doesn’t say as what it does say. In fact, much has been attributed to what John wrote is to be found nowhere in his writing.

In Revelation 20:1-3, we see a unique angel appearing with two great significant implements in His hand – (1) a key, and, (2) a great chain. Both of these devices carry a symbolism that gives us a clue to the meaning and timing of the passage before us.

(1)The key symbolically represents authority and specifically relates to the position of Christ after He secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His preordained death, burial and resurrection. It reveals the supreme kingly control He now holds upon God’s eternal throne and the Sovereign power He now exercises over all mankind. His assumption of the throne purposefully precipitated the gracious liberating of the Gospel to the nations, which were hitherto blinded.

(2) The chain symbolically represents restraint / binding and is carefully related to Satan, his wicked power and influence. It illustrates the great spiritual restraint that Christ has placed upon Satan, his kingdom and the incredible scope he once enjoyed in deceiving all the nations. The passage describes the constrained position the kingdom of darkness now experiences since the Cross. Revelation 20 does not in any way teach that Satan is currently physically bound, but rather spiritually bound. How can a spiritual being like Satan who cannot be seen with the human eye be bound with a literal physical chain? Floyd E. Hamilton (The Basis of Millennial Faith) explains,“no one would insist that Satan is to be bound with a literal chain of iron or some other metal, for Satan is a spirit and material chains could not hold him captive for a moment. Binding always means the limitation of power, in some way” (pp. 131-32).
In other Scripture, Christ is seen binding Satan and his minions simply with the words of His mouth. The same is the case today with His disciples. Christ has spiritually bound them in chains, although, that does not suggest they are inoperative; just simply restrained. John Gill (1697-1771) says, “And bound him a thousand years, with the great chain he had in his hand: the devil is in chains now, is under the power of divine Providence, and can do nothing without divine permission; but this chain is long, and he appears oftentimes to have great liberty, and ranges about the air and earth, and does much mischief; but now he will be so bound by the power of Christ over him, that he will not be able to stir hand or foot, to disturb the saints, or deceive the nations, whether with false worship, and false doctrine, or by stirring them up to persecute the saints."

The Gentiles were largely kept outside of salvation in the Old Testament; now they are at the centre of God’s redemptive plan. The veil blinding the Gentiles was lifted at the Cross allowing them to see the light and enter into salvation on a large scale. The Gentiles that were once in total darkness can now enter into spiritual life since and through the Cross. The opportunity of freedom exists for the "whosoever believeth" of all nations. It didn’t before the Cross. The Old Testament professer was required to submit to the old covenant Jewish order, which included many ordinances, rituals and procedures to be recognised as a believer.

The binding of the devil does not suggest that he is powerless to tempt, deceive or destroy. After all, Jesus said in John 10:10, “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.” No, it simply describes the spiritual limitation of Satan's power in respect of his ability to deceive the nations. Whilst the Gentile nations sat in darkness prior to the Cross, after it the Gospel was to be proclaimed to all nations. In this, Satan is powerless to prevent its spread during the intra-advent period. Revelation 20 simply indicates that Satan would be curtailed in order to facilitate the free spread of the Gospel to the nations.

wpm
Sep 21st 2008, 07:33 PM
And of course there is still this:

If this is true, that the first resurrection is when we die, that this is already in effect, then, in the following verses, those resurrected are only those who have not received the mark of the Beast:

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


And if that is true, then the following verse is in the past also.


Rev 13:16-17
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


And of course, there is just where it is spelled out in plain language.

Rev 20:6-8
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When does/did the beast come on the scene of time?
When does/did antichrist come on the scene of time?
When does/did the mystery of iniquity come on the scene of time?

Raybob
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:22 AM
Care to address the verses that went along with the post you quoted?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "address the verses." Rev.20:4-8 speaks of the reign of Christ on this earth from the cross until Satan's little season at the end, just before judgment day. I don't believe Rev 13:16-17 has any direct reference to Revelation 20.

9Marksfan
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:50 AM
If that were true. There is only one resurrection day where dead people rise. This is spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28 to name a few.

Physically, yes.


The "first" resurrection speaks of the day when we are born again. We were spiritually dead in our sins and trespasses until we came to life through Christ.

I'll agree that that IS a spiritual resurrection - but I think the following quote supports more the belief that the first resurrection is when we DIE and our souls/spirits go to be with Christ (the intermediate state).


Then we received our spiritual crowns and reign on our spiritual thrones with the King. :pp THAT is the "first" resurrection which makes the second death no harm to us.

But Paul and Jesus speak constantly of the spiritual crowns being awarded to us at the END of our lives - once we have been "faithful unto death"...

John146
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:23 PM
G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.Do you see that word Plural there? Why didn't you also bold and underline that? Also, if a literal one thousand years was intended, then the Greek word chilias (Strong's 5505) would have been used instead.

Greek for G5505
χιλιάς Transliteration

chilias

Pronunciation

khē-lē-ä's (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5505#)

Part of Speech

feminine noun


Root Word (Etymology)


from G5507 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5507&t=KJV)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a thousand, the number one thousand

legoman
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:50 PM
This is regarding whether the millenium is now or to come still.

Look at these verses:
Ephesians 2:
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Notice verse 7 speaks of "coming ages" - plural. What are the coming ages? This indicates there are at least two more ages after this current "evil" age (Galations 1:4) One of these ages would be the millenium. Which would be followed by the judgement, another age, and the new earth/new jerusalem.

If not, what does "coming ages" - plural - mean?

Legoman

Raybob
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:04 PM
This is regarding whether the millenium is now or to come still.

Look at these verses:
Ephesians 2:
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Notice verse 7 speaks of "coming ages" - plural. What are the coming ages? This indicates there are at least two more ages after this current "evil" age (Galations 1:4) One of these ages would be the millenium. Which would be followed by the judgement, another age, and the new earth/new jerusalem.

If not, what does "coming ages" - plural - mean?

Legoman

There are many ages to come from the perspective of the first century. There was the dark age, the Victorian age, etc. As far as "worlds", there is only one to come, according to Jesus.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

wpm
Sep 24th 2008, 04:54 AM
This is regarding whether the millenium is now or to come still.

Look at these verses:
Ephesians 2:
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Notice verse 7 speaks of "coming ages" - plural. What are the coming ages? This indicates there are at least two more ages after this current "evil" age (Galations 1:4) One of these ages would be the millenium. Which would be followed by the judgement, another age, and the new earth/new jerusalem.

If not, what does "coming ages" - plural - mean?

Legoman

There is an interesting research paper that would be impossible to better. It may help you on this.




TIME AND ETERNITY
A Biblical Study
By G.T. Stevenson

Chapter Nine
AION, AIONES, AIONIOS
Translation from one language to another is a notoriously difficult task, the expression of nuances felt to be present in one tongue being often practically impossible in another because of lack of appropriate vocabulary. Therefore it is to be expected that some discordance will arise.
In the translation of 'aion' in well-known English versions,the following forty different renderings appear: Age, eon, time, period, today, the future, universe, course, world, worldly, world without end, since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, evermore, for ever and ever, end of my days, eternal, everlasting, always, permanently, constantly, of old, ancient times, all time (since) time was, (since) time began, (before) time began, all time, (since) the beginning of time, eternal ages, eternal life, eternity, course of eternity, utter (darkness), (the son) does (remain), ages of the eternities, (in and through) the eternities of the eternities, etc.
For 'aionios" the English versions use:- everlasting, eternal, eonian, age lasting, age during, age duringly, age abiding, (in) the time of the ages, age times, (before) the ages of time, of the ages, (in) the periods of past ages, (before) the ages began, for the ages of time, (before) the beginning of time, since the world began, (before) the times of the world, (before) times eternal, from eternity, from all eternity, for ever, unfailing, final, unending, permanent, immemorial, enduring, lasting, eternally, long, perpetual, an immeasurable eternity, last, heavenly.
The above lists, compiled by J. Kirk, Eonian, Everlasting or Age-lasting? (Sacred literature Concern, Los Angeles, undated) have been gathered from The Douay Version (1582), The King James Version (1611), Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1881), Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (1872), The English Revised Version (1881), The American Standard Version (1901), Young's Literal Translation, The Modern Reader's Bible (1898), The Numerical Bible (1899), The Twentieth Century New Testament (1901), The N.T. in Modern Speech (Weymouth) (1903), The Complete Bible in Modern Speech (Fenton) (1906), Moffat's N.T. (1922), Goodspeed's N.T. (1923), The Centenary N.T. (Montgomery) (1924), Darby's W.T., The Concordant N.T. (1930), The Numeric English N.T. (Ivan Panin) (1935), The N.T. or Covenant (Cunnington) (1935).
The present writer express his indebtedness to the late Mr. J. Kirk, for these lists.
From the above multiplicity of terms it is evident that there has been no uniformity among translators as to how these Greek words should be rendered in English. While it is to be expected that, in different contexts, the terms will carry varying shades of meaning, it should be possible by studying all the occurrences of the derivatives of the root, to arrive at a common basic significance. Since aion is used consistently in the Septuagint to render 'olam'. our study of that word should form a basis for work on Greek terms.
The N.T. however provides only two quotations from the O.T. containing 'olam', both in Hebrew. In chapter 1 verse 8, Psalm 45:6 is cited,
'Thy throne O God (is) olam wa ad'. The LXX has 'eis aiona aionos' Heb.1:8 alters the phrase to 'eis ton aiona tou aionos', 'unto (or into) the aeons of the aeon'.
These phrases and other similar one have no particular meaning in Greek.
They must be regarded as Hebrew constructions in Greek words. The use of the definite article in the N.T. text suggests that in the intervening 300 years since the translating of the LXX about 250 B.C. the concept of an aeon as a time period corresponding in some degree with 'the olam" had been established in biblical thought patterns. A simple explanation of the slight difference in the LXX phrase and the N.T. quotation may be that the psalm writer envisaged the rule of God as extending into the remote unforeseeable future and beyond any human prognostication, whereas the N.T. eschatology embraced the concept of several aeons to come, the conditions in the second being resultant from the activity of Christ as the Son in the preceding one; that is, one aeon the outcome of the other and hence 'the aeon of the aeon'. On the other hand the N.T. phrase may be due to the carrying over of the Hebrew construct idiom into the Greek. The influence of the normal Hebrew polytotonic expression of the superlative degree, upon the Greek N.T. phrase will be discussed later.
In Heb.5:6, Psa.110:4 'Thou shalt be a priest 'to olam', is quoted as in LXX 'to (or for) the aion'. No difficulty arise here. Rev.21:22 states that in the New Jerusalem, the seer saw 'no temple'. It matters little how one interprets the term 'New Jerusalem', the fact remains that the N.T. predicts that in those far off future times of the consummation of the aeonian purpose of God, sin and death, enmity and sorrow "shall be no more'. Where no sin remains, no sacrificial priestly service can be needed. the Son's office as priest therefore cannot be 'for ever", but only for the age or period in which any humanity are estranged from God.
The whole argument of this section of Hebrews is that the Aaronic priesthood and sacrificial ritual 'brought nothing to completion'. It was a treadmill of repetitive service which could not make the participants perfect. But Christ's priestly intercession is to continue "for ever", his priesthood will have no more attained its objective than the Aaronic. Once human estrangement has been replaced by universal reconciliation, no further priestly mediacy will be needed. Hence Christ is, 'priest after the order of Melchisadech for the age, 'eis ton aiona'. These remarks apply also to Heb.6:20, 7:17,21,24 and 28 each of which refers to the Son's priesthood.
By N.T. times there had developed in Hebrew Rabbinic thinking the concepts of 'the present age' and 'the age to come'. Since the N.T. writers were familiar with the LXX Greek version of the O.T., from which they frequently quoted , and which employed 'aion' (age) and 'aiones' (ages) to translate 'olam' and 'olamim', we can readily see how these Greek terms took on the meaning belonging to the Hebrew words. The phrases 'the present age' and 'the age to come' are common in the N.T.
The dozens of various English expressions used by translators to render 'aion' and its derivatives can readily be divided into two groups, (a) those relating to finite time such as 'age', 'aeon', 'old time', 'age-abiding' and the like; and (b) those pertaining to infinity, 'eternal', 'eternity', and probably in the translators' thinking, 'everlasting' and 'for ever'. The distinction in definition set out in Chapter 1 regarding 'eternal' and 'everlasting' should be kept in mind, but translators who use these terms for 'olam' and 'aion', often appear to regard them as synonyms, and along with many theological writers, employ them interchangeably with consequent confusion.
Since consideration of space precludes discussion of all of the 180 occurrences of 'aion' and its derivatives, a selection of typical cases follows, along with an examination of contexts, the objective being to discover the concept or concepts represented by these terms.

John146
Sep 24th 2008, 05:08 PM
Whew! That's a lot to chew on. I think Jesus explained it all very well and we can figure out the truth of the matter from what He taught.

Jesus spoke of this aion (age, world) and the aion to come. He said He would be with His people as they preach the gospel right until the end of this aion (Matt 28:20), which has not yet ended. Jesus constantly contrasted heaven and earth, temporal things with eternal things and heavenly/spiritual things compared to worldly things. I don't think it was any different when He contrasted this age and the age to come. He differentiated between this aion and the aion to come in the following passage:

Luke 20
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world (aion) marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So, the way I see it is that this aion is temporal. It is the time when people marry and are given in marriage and the time when people die. But in that aion to come, people will no longer marry or be given in marriage and they will not die anymore. I think that is a clearly description of eternity, as described in Revelation 21 (no more death, pain, crying or sorrow).

So, the only ages we really need to concern ourselves with at this point are 1) this current age where Christ's people are still bringing the gospel to the world, people are still marrying and being given in marriage and people are still dying and 2) the age to come when there is no need to spread the gospel anymore because the day of judgment will have taken place, and where there will be no more marriage and no more death.

Scripture teaches that Christ returns at the end of this age (Matt 24) and the resurrection of the dead and the judgment takes place at that time as well (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50).

Eric