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cwb
Sep 17th 2008, 11:11 PM
This is just a theory I have had on the second beast in Rev. 13. I'm not saying this is what it will be. Just a theory I had so I am posting to get some feedback. The theory is that the second beast is the media.

Rev 13:15


And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


This is speaking about the second beast. It says the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast and causes the image to speak. Well, isn't that what a television does - takes an image or picture and gives life to it so that the image speaks. Also, we might not think of a television as a miracle today. However if you were living in the first century and saw a vision of a television, you would probably call it a miracle.

Rev 13:16


And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


By propaganda and promoting the first beast, the second beast causes those who do not accept Christ as saviour to worship him and recieve his mark.


Rev 13: 16

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Buy or sell what? Could it be airtime? Could it be that the media around the world gets so corrupt that it does not allow anybody but those who are sold out to the enemy to buy or sell airtime. (We could be pretty close to that time already.)

Joe King
Sep 17th 2008, 11:38 PM
Well, the 2nd beast will be allowed to call down fire from heaven, so it will most likely be a person.

Revelation 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

cwb
Sep 18th 2008, 12:27 AM
Well, the 2nd beast will be allowed to call down fire from heaven, so it will most likely be a person.

Revelation 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

I've seen pictures on TV of when the atomic bomb was dropped. Kind of looked like fire coming down from heaven.

Acerohombre
Sep 18th 2008, 12:32 AM
The second beast is the rising empire of the Antichrist. As you can see it's a conglomeration of remaining nations, feet of a bear, etc. When you look back at Daniel 7 you will see those same beasts and how they were "spared".

cwb
Sep 18th 2008, 12:35 AM
The second beast is the rising empire of the Antichrist. As you can see it's a conglomeration of remaining nations, feet of a bear, etc. When you look back at Daniel 7 you will see those same beasts and how they were "spared".

Isn't it the first beast that has feet of a bear?

Acerohombre
Sep 18th 2008, 12:55 AM
Isn't it the first beast that has feet of a bear?

I was just using selective memory. :)

In Daniel 7, there are four beast that rise up in the night dream. The first is that of an Lion, second a Bear, third a Leopard. When you continue to read here you see that the beast are explained to be Kingdoms. When you read further their dominion is taken away but they are spared to live on.

Now,in Rev 13 you see another beast rising up with similar features of those three kingdoms. It has been thought (amongst other things, read and form your own conclusion:)) that the three beasts are anything from England, to Russia, to Greece and others.

In any case we know that there aren't "kingdoms" here today but remnants of Iraq, for example, is a remnant of the Babylonian Empire. These "body parts" that make up the beast in Rev 13 are most likely remnants of those Kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 7.

moonglow
Sep 18th 2008, 01:40 AM
This is just a theory I have had on the second beast in Rev. 13. I'm not saying this is what it will be. Just a theory I had so I am posting to get some feedback. The theory is that the second beast is the media.

Rev 13:15


This is speaking about the second beast. It says the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast and causes the image to speak. Well, isn't that what a television does - takes an image or picture and gives life to it so that the image speaks. Also, we might not think of a television as a miracle today. However if you were living in the first century and saw a vision of a television, you would probably call it a miracle.

Rev 13:16


By propaganda and promoting the first beast, the second beast causes those who do not accept Christ as saviour to worship him and recieve his mark.


Rev 13: 16


Buy or sell what? Could it be airtime? Could it be that the media around the world gets so corrupt that it does not allow anybody but those who are sold out to the enemy to buy or sell airtime. (We could be pretty close to that time already.)

I call the media the beast myself though not in refence to those scriptures. Its a beast because those of us in the first world are dependant upon it. I check it for the local weather so I know how to dress for the day...plus local and world news of course...hard to tune that all out. Alot of its gossip...they also really sway the public's opinion on different subjects and people. For instance when the media was talking good about Bush his ratings in the polls went way up....when they started trashing him his ratings went way down. I have see people, including my own family members believe things said about certain people in the news and change their views of that person soley based on the media! whether the facts checked out or not! I have seen the media ruin people...or raise them up. Its become very dangerous because people are believing what they say and I don't get that! So much of its nothing more then commentaries...just people's opinions...nothing more and the public believes it!

In this its a mind controlling beast!

The saving grace here is that most of the world doesn't have TV! Or their news is so controlled they only know what they are allowed to know as the case with China and others. Many third world countries have no clue about anything outside of where they live because they have no electricy for radio's or TV's...that is where the beast from Revelation falls apart in it being the media...but its still a dangerous thing...

Another good thing is (well I think kind of short lived) were blogs busting the media for not giving all the facts or getting things out there before they did. Now its kind of gone from blogs to youtube. They bust the media and other alot...helps keep things a little bit in check anyway.

But good thinking on this...if it wasn't the fact most of the world doesn't have TV's I might agree with you....

As far as fire coming from the sky, we have to remember Revelation is symbolic ....I don't think anyone in the first world would be impressed with someone making fire come out of the sky anymore...this is an allusion to scriptures in the OT. I mean seriously...what American or Englishman..or any of that know technology would believe plain fire came out of the sky? We would think it was a bomb, or some trick...an illusion like a man pulling a rabbit out of his hat. David Copperfield did some amazing tricks on TV and in front of people in making whole building disappear! Yet inspite of what we saw with our eyes...we all knew it was still there....somehow...that was the illusion of it all...

The only ones that would think a man really made fire come from the sky would be those living in the third world countries that haven't experienced the things we have..

Stick a TV in the jungle and those tribes would freak out too!

God bless

Joe King
Sep 18th 2008, 02:43 AM
I've seen pictures on TV of when the atomic bomb was dropped. Kind of looked like fire coming down from heaven.

I really don't think an atomic bomb blast is miraculous.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 04:03 AM
Revelation 19 says the "False Prophet" is thrown in the Lake of Fire with the first beast/Antichrist. How could a corporeal entity like the media be thrown in the Lake of Fire? It must be an individual person.

cwb
Sep 18th 2008, 07:16 AM
Revelation 19 says the "False Prophet" is thrown in the Lake of Fire with the first beast/Antichrist. How could a corporeal entity like the media be thrown in the Lake of Fire? It must be an individual person.

Is "Hell" an "individual person"? Furthermore is "death" an individual person? Revelation 20 says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire as well.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 18th 2008, 03:38 PM
Is "Hell" an "individual person"? Furthermore is "death" an individual person? Revelation 20 says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire as well.That's talking about those who are presently waiting in hell for their final judgment at the Great White Throne. Besides, I don't see the "media" on that list. :D

John146
Sep 18th 2008, 03:56 PM
That's talking about those who are presently waiting in hell for their final judgment at the Great White Throne. Besides, I don't see the "media" on that list. :DThat's not true. Death and hell will have already given up the dead in them before they are cast into the lake of fire. Those who were delivered up from death and hell for judgment are cast into the lake of fire after death and hell.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell themselves are symbolically cast into the lake of fire because there will be no more death and no more hell from that point on. And we see "whosoever was not found written in the book of life" being cast into the lake of fire after death and hell.

moonglow
Sep 18th 2008, 04:12 PM
Well if you think about it...what does a false prophet do? They spread false 'teachings'...a teaching isn't a person either...its a mind frame...a way of viewing things. How can you cast that into hell? Its like this...Hitler started a way of thinking...a mind frame that is still followed even today by some people...even though Hitler himself may be sitting in hell the mind frame is still around! So what good does it do to cast the person into hell as long as the false teaching is still around? Casting satan into hell doesn't stop sin either as some suppose. We are perfectly capable of sinning all by ourselves...satan cannot make us sin...never could...can only temp. So if all temptation is gone would we still sin? Probably..knowing humanity. So how does casting satan, the false prophet, etc, into the lake of fire change anything if the mind frame, the teaching and the corruption is still there? That of course is when the real miracle happens...when the old is done away with ...when sin and death are all done away with and everything made anew. The media is a mind frame. If all the news and programs with bad intents were stopped...cast into hell so to speak...would all this other junk stop?

I think it would be greatly slowed down yes...just as sin would greatly slow down with the casting of satan into the LOF..but not totally stop as I said before...we can sin without him. Likewise the influence the media has had on us will stay with us for a long, long time even if the media was done away with.

God bless

aceinthehouse
Sep 18th 2008, 05:43 PM
How about the computer....WWW(world wide web)

I have been typing a bunch of names in this calculater site on 666 and the only name that calculated to 666 was Hitler....

Well,I just typed in computer and Television and guess which one came up 666? http://www.cjseymour.plus.com/numcalc.htm (try it yourself)

Interesting none-the-less cause a computer speaks as well and has an image and isn't the name of the MAIN computer called the Beast?Not sure there?Just what I have heard...

Plus doesn't it say that the 2 witnesses will be killed by the antichrist and the whole world will see it...?Well,I don't know if the TV would show a murder like that,but I bet a U-Tube would or something like that..(Just a thought)

So could the Computer be the 2nd beast...?I don't know

But a fire coming down from heaven could be a computer controlled "red" button to be used to start a war, or fire a Nuclear bomb(all controlled by computers now)

Names/words that match with 666(besides what the site gives as example)
---------------------------------(that I have tried)
#1)Computer
(I'll add more if I find some)here

Here's what I found about the Computer named the "BEAST" located in Brussels,Belgium

http://geocities.com/beastcomputerrr/

ross3421
Sep 18th 2008, 06:09 PM
Is "Hell" an "individual person"? Furthermore is "death" an individual person? Revelation 20 says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire as well.

Rev 6:8

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

If we use the above scripture we see Death and Hell are individuals. Death is the fourth rider and as I have been saying equates to the fourth beast whereby the little horn arises. The little horn is Hell as he comes up from the bottomless pit.

Rev 20:13

Let's take a closer look. The thing which should jump out is that how can "death" deliver up the dead? He must be an individual. Also do we really we have the wicked dead resurrected from two different places? The sea and a place called "death and hell"?

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I believe the way it should read is that the place called the "sea" being translated as the bottomless pit contains the dead and the wicked are resurrected from this place. Death and Hell though are two entities are one in the same and they deliver up the dead. They deliver up the kingdom of the Devil.

Rev 20:15

We see a distiction made between the event of "death and hell" being cast in the fire AND then the event of all those not found written in the book. This would also support that death and hell are individuals seperate from those found in hell itself which are those not written in the book.

Mark

markedward
Sep 19th 2008, 02:05 AM
How about the computer....WWW(world wide web)What line of reasoning do you think makes this work?


I have been typing a bunch of names in this calculater site on 666 and the only name that calculated to 666 was Hitler....The website you provided uses over a dozen different methods. It's literally forcing the end-result to be "666" no matter what name you type in. I could type in the words "tangerine fruit" and it comes out 666 using the "Bungus Scheme." That must mean tangerines are from the devil! Or maybe it's just a load of nonsense? After all, Hitler's dead, so he can't be "the antichrist."

Notice how the website you provided doesn't give us either Hebrew or Greek gematria... considering those are the two languages John, the author of the Revelation, spoke...


Interesting none-the-less cause a computer speaks as well and has an image and isn't the name of the MAIN computer called the Beast?Not sure there?Just what I have heard...This alleged "main computer" (according to the link you gave) will give every person "three entries of six digits each."

What does "three entires of six digits" mean? Oh, it means eighteen. The oldest original Greek manuscripts of the Revelation say the words "six-hundred-sixty-six," which is absolutely not the same thing as three sixes in a row.


Plus doesn't it say that the 2 witnesses will be killed by the antichrist and the whole world will see it...?Well,I don't know if the TV would show a murder like that,but I bet a U-Tube would or something like that..(Just a thought)A majority of the people in the world don't have their own TVs or computers (with internet). This would take centuries to get "the whole world" capable of being able to see such an event.

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 02:49 AM
What line of reasoning do you think makes this work?

The website you provided uses over a dozen different methods. It's literally forcing the end-result to be "666" no matter what name you type in. I could type in the words "tangerine fruit" and it comes out 666 using the "Bungus Scheme." That must mean tangerines are from the devil! Or maybe it's just a load of nonsense? After all, Hitler's dead, so he can't be "the antichrist."

Notice how the website you provided doesn't give us either Hebrew or Greek gematria... considering those are the two languages John, the author of the Revelation, spoke...

This alleged "main computer" (according to the link you gave) will give every person "three entries of six digits each."

What does "three entires of six digits" mean? Oh, it means eighteen. The oldest original Greek manuscripts of the Revelation say the words "six-hundred-sixty-six," which is absolutely not the same thing as three sixes in a row.

A majority of the people in the world don't have their own TVs or computers (with internet). This would take centuries to get "the whole world" capable of being able to see such an event.

Yep those living in dumps around the world sure wouldn't see anything...:(

Yes people need to study gematria of Greek and Hebrew where they really did match their letters to numbers and could even write whole sentences using numbers only! And don't forget the Hebrews leave out the vowels...no telling what name might come up then...:hmm:

God bless

golem
Apr 26th 2011, 06:59 PM
Well, the 2nd beast will be allowed to call down fire from heaven, so it will most likely be a person.

Revelation 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

The Predator (suitably named) Drones bring fire down from the 1st heavens from a screen managed in the US, on targets in Afghanistan and Libya - that detachment from proximity to the target (humans?) can be dulling to the function of the conscience, if there is any left un-seared.

mattlad22
Apr 26th 2011, 08:22 PM
This is just a theory I have had on the second beast in Rev. 13. I'm not saying this is what it will be. Just a theory I had so I am posting to get some feedback. The theory is that the second beast is the media.

Rev 13:15


This is speaking about the second beast. It says the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast and causes the image to speak. Well, isn't that what a television does - takes an image or picture and gives life to it so that the image speaks. Also, we might not think of a television as a miracle today. However if you were living in the first century and saw a vision of a television, you would probably call it a miracle.

Rev 13:16


By propaganda and promoting the first beast, the second beast causes those who do not accept Christ as saviour to worship him and recieve his mark.


Rev 13: 16


Buy or sell what? Could it be airtime? Could it be that the media around the world gets so corrupt that it does not allow anybody but those who are sold out to the enemy to buy or sell airtime. (We could be pretty close to that time already.)

Cwb thank you for the theory.
Here is wisdom From God.

"Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs. so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he decieves those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

the beast, the false prophet do not create the image, the people who marvel after the beast who's deadly wound was healed do, they think he is God, and the second beast is his prophet who even calls fire out of heaven in the sights of men and he commands those people of the earth to build an image.. The image is literally given the deception of life, it seems alive, "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast" that very same image he commanded the people to make for the beast, he gives the deception of life, it even speaks, if you do not worship the image of the beast created by those who marvel after the beast and are decieved by the signs and wonders of the false prophet, the beast's prophet, and given breath by him, you shall be killed.

T.v the way we have it is already here and none of those things were required for a t.v to be made. The beast is yet to come when the restrainer is taken out of the way.

DaveGerard
May 29th 2011, 11:38 AM
The 2nd beast is Satan himself as Antichrist. He has two horns like a lamb (looks like the lamb slain), but spake as a dragon (deception).

Beckrl
May 29th 2011, 03:58 PM
A great parallel can be found in Daniel of Nebuchaddezzer where an image was made and was to be worshipped. I don't see an 'media' in that parallel.

mattlad22
May 29th 2011, 04:13 PM
The 2nd beast is Satan himself as Antichrist. He has two horns like a lamb (looks like the lamb slain), but spake as a dragon (deception).

No.

Satan gives all his power, throne and authority to the first beast.
The second beast recieves his power in the first beast's presence, why would Satan need to be in the first beast's presence to recieve power if Satan is the one who gave the first beast his power, throne and authority in the first place?

DaveGerard
May 29th 2011, 09:56 PM
No.

Satan gives all his power, throne and authority to the first beast.
The second beast recieves his power in the first beast's presence, why would Satan need to be in the first beast's presence to recieve power if Satan is the one who gave the first beast his power, throne and authority in the first place?

I think what you are asking is how could the first beast, who is given power by Satan, be here if Satan is the second beast and comes after.

Daniel
9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I believe that the second beast is Satan setting himself up in the temple as Christ in the midst of the week, which is why the sacrifice and the oblation cease. This does not mean that Satan is not here for the first half of the week. I am simply implying that the second beast is Satan as the false messiah (2nd half of the week).

mattlad22
May 29th 2011, 10:21 PM
I think what you are asking is how could the first beast, who is given power by Satan, be here if Satan is the second beast and comes after.

Daniel
9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I believe that the second beast is Satan setting himself up in the temple as Christ in the midst of the week, which is why the sacrifice and the oblation cease. This does not mean that Satan is not here for the first half of the week. I am simply implying that the second beast is Satan as the false messiah (2nd half of the week).

No thats not what im asking, im telling you and asking you, how can the second beast be Satan if the second beast recieves his power in the presence of the first beast and the first beast only recieves his power, throne and authority from Satan?
Why would satan need the presence of the first beast to have power? Afterall Satan is the one who gives the first beast his power anyways.

Now also how can Satan be cast into the lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet are" if satan is the false prophet, the second beast?

DaveGerard
May 29th 2011, 10:27 PM
No thats not what im asking, im telling you and asking you, how can the second beast be Satan if the second beast recieves his power in the presence of the first beast and the first beast only recieves his power, throne and authority from Satan?
Why would satan need the presence of the first beast to have power? Afterall Satan is the one who gives the first beast his power anyways.

Now also how can Satan be cast into the lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet are" if satan is the false prophet, the second beast?

What I am trying to say is that Satan gives power to the first beast THEN he sets himself up in the temple of God (2Thes 2), and takes on the role of the second beast (the false messiah).

The false prophet is just a role (Antochrist) that Satan plays, as is the dragon, the serpent, the little horn, all of them roles. That role and the political first beast are simply Satan's tools and are cast into the lake of fire, meaning done away with, along with Satan himself.

mattlad22
May 29th 2011, 10:36 PM
What I am trying to say is that Satan gives power to the first beast THEN he sets himself up in the temple of God (2Thes 2), and takes on the role of the second beast (the false messiah).

The false prophet is just a role that Satan plays, just like the dragon, the serpent, the little horn, all of them roles. That role and the political first beast are cast into the fire, meaning done away with, along with Satan himself.

No he doesnt, as i am asking an telling you, the first beast is the one who exalts himself above God and who all the world worships and follows, the second beast recieves power in the first beast's presence and his sole purpose is to decieve the people of the world into worshipping the first beast.

Why would Satan who gives his power, throne and authority to the first beast exalt himself above God, but demand and decieve all the people to worship the first beast who he only gets power if he is in his presence?

The false prophet is a man, who does decieving works to decieve the people into worshipping the first beast, his sole purpose is to have people believe in the first beast who is the one that exalts himself above God and all that is God.

Satan rules outside the scene, he gives the first beast his power, throne and gat authority and through the first beast the second beast recieves satans power in the first beast's presence.

The beast and false prophet are cast into the fire at Christ's return, Satan isnt, he is bound in the pit for a thousand years and shut up and sealed, when the thousand years are over and the events finished he is then "cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are"

ross3421
May 29th 2011, 10:42 PM
The second beast is the son of Satan which the father will join in one after the 5th trumpet.

mattlad22
May 29th 2011, 10:44 PM
The second beast is the son of Satan which the father will join in one after the 5th trumpet.

The son of Satan.

Any scriptural evidence to suggest the false prophet is a literal child of satan, or are you saying it is a child born of Satan?

DaveGerard
May 29th 2011, 10:47 PM
No he doesnt, as i am asking an telling you, the first beast is the one who exalts himself above God and who all the world worships and follows, the second beast recieves power in the first beast's presence and his sole purpose is to decieve the people of the world into worshipping the first beast.

Why would Satan who gives his power, throne and authority to the first beast exalt himself above God, but demand and decieve all the people to worship the first beast who he only gets power if he is in his presence?

The false prophet is a man, who does decieving works to decieve the people into worshipping the first beast, his sole purpose is to have people believe in the first beast who is the one that exalts himself above God and all that is God.

Satan rules outside the scene, he gives the first beast his power, throne and gat authority and through the first beast the second beast recieves satans power in the first beast's presence.

The beast and false prophet are cast into the fire at Christ's return, Satan isnt, he is bound in the pit for a thousand years and shut up and sealed, when the thousand years are over and the events finished he is then "cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are"

Are you implying that the first beast is the Antichrist?

mattlad22
May 29th 2011, 11:53 PM
Are you implying that the first beast is the Antichrist?

He sure is.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 refrence that to Revelations 13:1-8

DaveGerard
May 30th 2011, 12:06 AM
He sure is.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 refrence that to Revelations 13:1-8

The first beast has to be a political system that rises from the people. Rev. 17 spells it out very well.

Rev 17:9 - And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rev 17:12 - And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour (Rev 3:10 - hour of temptation) with the beast.

Rev. 17:15 - And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The second beast (a religious beast) gives life unto the image of the first beast and causes all to worhship it and receive the mark of the beast that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark. This is referring to commerce. This system is a global political system with ALL nations partaking.

Rev 13:4 - Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

No one can make war with it because there is no other system to make war with. All nations will be partaking of this system.

Rev 18:3 - For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Lastly, this political system is much like Satan's system from when he fell only that one had 7 heads, 10 horns, and 7 crowns (i.e. not 10 crown like this system - See Rev. 12:3). Satan has done this before and you can read about it in scripture.

mattlad22
May 30th 2011, 12:13 AM
The first beast has to be a political system that rises from the people. Rev. 17 spells it out very well.

Rev 17:9 - And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rev 17:12 - And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour (Rev 3:10 - hour of temptation) with the beast.

Rev. 17:15 - And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The second beast (a religious beast) gives life unto the image of the first beast and causes all to worhship it and receive the mark of the beast that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark. This is referring to commerce. This system is a global political system with ALL nations partaking.

Rev 13:4 - Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

No one can make war with it because there is no other system to make war with. All nations will be partaking of this system.

Rev 18:3 - For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Lastly, this political system is much like Satan's system from when he fell only that one had 7 heads, 10 horns, and 7 crowns (i.e. not 10 crown like this system - See Rev. 12:3). Satan has done this before and you can read about it in scripture.

The first beast is a ruler of a kingdom, he is the man of lawlessness, that kingdom will posess everyone in the world not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb at one point, it doesnt start out that way, but it will become that abomination.

He is a man who rules a kingdom, then he rules a bigger kingdom, "the 10 horns you saw are 10 are ten kings who have recieved no kingdom as yet, but they recieve authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give thier power and authority to the beast." then He rules all nations, tongues and tribes who are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.

They will all come to thier earthly end at the return of Christ, and he and his false prophet shall be cast directly into the lake of fire, but the rest of the dead shall wait until th thousand years are finished.

Hunter121
May 30th 2011, 01:59 AM
From what I've heard it's the Antichrist, at this point in the tribulation period, the Antichrist is claiming to be God, and by backing it up, he will make fire come from the sky.

DaveGerard
May 30th 2011, 02:45 AM
From what I've heard it's the Antichrist, at this point in the tribulation period, the Antichrist is claiming to be God, and by backing it up, he will make fire come from the sky.

Well this is what I think. I believe that the first beast is Satan's political structure and the second is Satan himself as Antichrist who gives power unto the first beast. It is the second beast which causes all to receive a mark and partake of the first beast.

Servant89
May 30th 2011, 09:43 PM
Well this is what I think. I believe that the first beast is Satan's political structure and the second is Satan himself as Antichrist who gives power unto the first beast. It is the second beast which causes all to receive a mark and partake of the first beast.

He already came, already fulfilled everything, including bringing fire from heaven in front of 70,000 people. But you will not believe it because it does not fit the human expectations. For some reason, people thrust their ability to figure out the future more, than what google shows happened already.

Shalom

quiet dove
May 30th 2011, 11:18 PM
He already came, already fulfilled everything, including bringing fire from heaven in front of 70,000 people. But you will not believe it because it does not fit the human expectations. For some reason, people thrust their ability to figure out the future more, than what google shows happened already.

Shalom

Servant, it is not a matter of human expectation, it is a matter of how the Bible is understood that gives us eache the basis for the understanding we have, correct or incorrect, it really is not a matter of fulfilling human expectation. Each here sincerely seeks to understand the Bible, you should know that.

Servant89
May 31st 2011, 12:02 AM
Servant, it is not a matter of human expectation, it is a matter of how the Bible is understood that gives us eache the basis for the understanding we have, correct or incorrect, it really is not a matter of fulfilling human expectation. Each here sincerely seeks to understand the Bible, you should know that.

But I want you to awake to the reality of human behavior.... The Jews reject Jesus ...not because they do not have faith in the Old Testament prophecies, they do! They believe there is only one God and that is the God of Abraham, Isaaac and Jacob. They have faith in the Old Testament. They reject Jesus because the way they EXPECT messiah to arrive resembles more the 2nd coming than the first coming of Christ. Likewise, we Christians, we all have faith in the NT, we all believe it, but like the Jews, we have certain expectations. We already know how the future will unfold... right? There will be a rapture, then the antichrist shows up, there will be a third temple rebuilt and so forth, right?

But this is my point, if tomorrow, 200 million soldiers cross the Euphrates river (which happens to dry up for the crossing) and head towards the valley of Meggido, and at the same time there are two witnesses in Jerusalem that are killed and the whole worlds sees that.... I assure you, 99% of Christians will not believe it is fulfillment of prophecy because it does not meet their expectations. We certainly trust our expectations more than historical events that shout loud and clear that the Bible is an awesome book predicting the future.

Never mind me, I know I am wasting my time. Carry on.

Shalom

quiet dove
May 31st 2011, 12:10 AM
But I want you to awake to the reality of human behavior.... The Jews reject Jesus ...not because they do not have faith in the Old Testament prophecies, they do! They believe there is only one God and that is the God of Abraham, Isaaac and Jacob. They have faith in the Old Testament. They reject Jesus because the way they EXPECT messiah to arrive resembles more the 2nd coming than the first coming of Christ. Likewise, we Christians, we all have faith in the NT, we all believe it, but like the Jews, we have certain expectations. We already know how the future will unfold... right? There will be a rapture, then the antichrist shows up, there will be a third temple rebuilt and so forth, right?

But this is my point, if tomorrow, 200 million soldiers cross the Euphrates river (which happens to dry up for the crossing) and head towards the valley of Meggido, and at the same time there are two witnesses in Jerusalem that are killed and the whole worlds sees that.... I assure you, 99% of Christians will not believe it is fulfillment of prophecy because it does not meet their expectations. We certainly trust our expectations more than historical events that shout loud and clear that the Bible is an awesome book predicting the future.

Never mind me, I know I am wasting my time. Carry on.

Shalom

I did misunderstand a bit of your point, but on the other hand it has given you good opportunity to put forth a good post and expanded what you meant more clearly. :)

Servant89
May 31st 2011, 12:30 AM
I did misunderstand a bit of your point, but on the other hand it has given you good opportunity to put forth a good post and expanded what you meant more clearly. :)

We need to study human behavior and be aware of our own weaknesses. For example, the Apostles... they saw Jesus doing miracles for 3 years, heard Jesus predict his death and resurrection, and when it happened... they did not believe the facts (Luke 24:18-25). Jesus called them fools for not believing the facts of history in Luke 24:25.

Take John the Baptist, the greatest man born of woman, the arcangel Gabriel himself appeared to his father and told him, your son will come in the spirit and power of Eiljah, John even dressed like Elijah, but when people asked him, Are you Elijah? He said no. I mean, come on!!!! We can not trust men to interpret prophecies for us, not even the greatest man born of women. Jesus had to correct that and say: He is Elijah indeed that was to come.

That is why 4 times we are told, let no man deceive you, when it comes to prophecy. Do not trust any man or any prediction, TRUST GOOGLE!!! The facts of history,,, that is something we can take to the Bank.

God already predicted when antichrist and false prophet were going to be revealed.... the time of revelation is in the BIble... Dont you think that it is just too wonderful, too amazing that the following things were all revealed on the same day of the year, as predicted in the Bible?

1. antichrist received the title that adds up to 666 and literally means antichrist on this day
2. Antichrist received mortal wound that is healed on this day too
3. The Antichrist that removed the third horn by the roots, started his reign on this day of the year
4. The false prophet that brought fire from heaven, it just so happens, that he too was revealed on this day of the year

Once antichrist made covenant with Israel on the day predicted by the Bible, guess what happened? Israel started giving land for peace and that too, started on this day of the year.

The Bible gives us 3 hints that the revelation of the wicked one was going to be on that day of the year. That to me is AWESOME! I see the Bible as an awesome book. But I am weird. It does not bother me that no one see any value on those facts of history. It does not bother me that people look at me as a crazy person. It really does not bother me. Because 3 days before the antichrist made a covenant with Israel, I told my friend Henry at work: "Mark my words, the next thing that is going to happen is that this guy will make a covenant with Israel." And it was in the news the very next day, right on time, saying it was going to happen in 3 days after that. I saw that before it happened, what an amazing book the Bible is!!!! I did not get that information from a dream or a vision, I got it from the Bible and facts of history. That is why it does not bother me that no one values it. I saw history backing the Bible up and that is worth shouting! Now you know why I am so weird.

Peace

DurbanDude
Jun 2nd 2011, 09:49 AM
The 2nd beast is Satan himself as Antichrist. He has two horns like a lamb (looks like the lamb slain), but spake as a dragon (deception).

I look at the actual symbols and their precedent in Daniel. In Daniel , beast represent empires, horns represent divisions of empires with specific geographical locations. Both beasts and horns can represent the leader of the "horn" location if a "mouth" or "eyes" are given it, otherwise the horns remain a geographical location of a division of the original empire. Thus the imagery, a horn is literally a powerpoint, a sharp point of power on an animal.

The second beast of Revelation is made up of two very small powerpoints (the horns are like a lamb's horns, very small), and yet these horns when united into one empire (two horns of one beast, this means two divisions of one empire) seem to dominate specifically the religious power of earth. When you read this verse in conjunction with Daniel 2 it becomes obvious which two regions have a small centre and yet dominate the world. Daniel 2 refers to the fourth Roman Empire becoming divided into two religious empires, miry or brittle clay representing imperfect clay for moulding or false religion. These two empires are based in Rome and Istanbul, these are the two cities of the Roman Empire.

Rev 13 is saying that when the two cities unite , they will cause the world to worship the other beast. This two-horned beast is not a person just like the 3 beasts of Daniel 7 are not people. It is an empire resulting from the two horns uniting, Rome and Istanbul, and thus it has the power (the full power of Europe and the Middle east) to put up a convincing display when setting up the world ruler:

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Liquid Tension
Jun 2nd 2011, 11:22 AM
He already came, already fulfilled everything, including bringing fire from heaven in front of 70,000 people. But you will not believe it because it does not fit the human expectations. For some reason, people thrust their ability to figure out the future more, than what google shows happened already.

Shalom

That was an interesting read. Gonna have to re-read that when I can keep my eyes open and not when I'm ready to fall asleep.

DaveGerard
Jun 2nd 2011, 12:42 PM
He already came, already fulfilled everything, including bringing fire from heaven in front of 70,000 people. But you will not believe it because it does not fit the human expectations. For some reason, people thrust their ability to figure out the future more, than what google shows happened already.

Shalom

It its written that the whole world shall wonder after the beast and I'm sorry, but that hasn't occurred yet.

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 01:55 AM
It its written that the whole world shall wonder after the beast and I'm sorry, but that hasn't occurred yet.

And you know this to be true because.... ? You know that when it gets fulfilled it will be in accordance to your interpretation of the future? Is that it?

Just curious... Peace

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 01:57 AM
From what I've heard it's the Antichrist, at this point in the tribulation period, the Antichrist is claiming to be God, and by backing it up, he will make fire come from the sky.

It is not the first beast, it is the second beast the one that makes fire from heaven to fall towards the earth. It already happened. Holiwood made a movie about it already.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 02:02 AM
The Lord said...., let no man deceive you regarding interpretation of prophecy. Listen to him! Pay attention!!!!!

Isaiah 14:12-14 says that Satan wants to be like the Most High, identical to God. Believe it!

Anything different from God is not perfect. We see Satan imitating God even in His triune structure in Rev 16:13 and Rev 13. We see there the Satanic trinity, the dragon (anti-God), the beast (anti-Christ) and the other beast, the false prophet (the anti-Spirit). In Rev 13:3 we see the dragon giving all his authority to the antichrist just like God the Father gave His authority to Christ (Mat 28:18 and Joh 5:22). We see the false prophet doing the miracles instead of the antichrist just like Jesus did nothing of Himself but used the Holy Spirit to work the wonders (see Mat 12:28; Luk 4:18; Joh 5:30; and Joh 8:28). We see the false prophet appearing and doing his miracles IN THE PRESENCE of the antichrist (AFTER antichrist was revealed, exalted) just like the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 2 AFTER Christ was glorified as it is stated in John 7:37-39. We see the false prophet moving people to worship the antichrist (Rev 13:12) just like the Holy Spirit moves people to worship Christ (John 16:14). The false prophet has power to give life (in a lying kind of way, 2 Th 2:9; Rev 13:14-17) imitating the Holy Spirit who has real power to give life.

The antichrist is a demon that has been at work since the times of the Apostles (1 John 2:18-19 and 1 John 4:1-3). The anti-spirit is also a demonic spirit (it has to be, to be imitator of the Holy Spirit). Notice in Rev 16:13 that demons come out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast (antichrist) and the false prophet, spirits like frogs. This is imitating the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity sent the Holy Spirit. We see God the Father sending the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, and Gal 4:6. The Holy Spirit was sent by God the Son (Jesus) in Luke 24:49, John 20:22 and Mark 1:8. The Holy Spirit is also sent by Himself in 1 Cor 12:8-11. That is why the satanic trinity is pictured sending spirits out of their mouths (like Jesus did it in John 20:22). That puts them (dragon, beast and false prophet) at the same level just like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are on the same level. The only difference is that the Holy Trinity is one being, one God, just like your spirit, soul and body are one (1Thes 5:23). The satanic trinity is made out of three demons (Satan and two others) and they try to act like the Holy Trinity but fail to be one, because they can not be one like God is one.

If you understood that, you will be able to identify the anti-spirit, who has a billion followers today and points to the antichrist.... today!

Peace

RockSolid
Jun 3rd 2011, 03:24 AM
The dragon, Satan, gave authority to the first beast in Rev. 13, Rome. The second beast could exercise the authority of the first beast, these were the apostate Jewish leaders and false prophets. The second beast is the "false prophet".

The second beast,
Rev 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,
Rev 13:14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
Rev 13:15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
Rev 13:16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,

The false prophet,
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image.

The second beast/false prophet were the apostate Jewish leaders/false prophets joined with the first beast, Rome, to persecute, lead astray, and destroy Christians.

1. Jesus told His listeners to beware of false prophets,
Matt 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.


2. The second beast/false prophet would,
Rev 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,

Jesus had already warned his listeners of this. He told them the false prophets would "perform great signs and wonders" before that generation passed away.
Matt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

False prophets in Acts.
Acts 8:9 But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great.
Acts 8:10 They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.”
Acts 8:11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.

Acts 13:6 When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus.

3. Deception would be rampant.
Matt 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Matt 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

Josephus, Antiquities 20:8:6
"And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly"

4. The Caesars considered themselves to be gods. The apostate Jewish leaders chose Caesar over Christ.

John 19:15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

The mark of the beast was basically Caesar worship.

DaveGerard
Jun 3rd 2011, 03:58 AM
And you know this to be true because.... ? You know that when it gets fulfilled it will be in accordance to your interpretation of the future? Is that it?

Just curious... Peace

Ok you tell me. When in history did the whole world follow after a single religious figure?

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:27 AM
Ok you tell me. When in history did the whole world follow after a single religious figure?

It does not fit your model. It really doesn't. The "whole world" to you.... probably mean every person on the planet. That has never happened. Enjoy your discussion about who knows best how the future will unfold. I am going back to Bible Chat. I can tell my donkeyness will get me in trouble again.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:30 AM
The mark of the beast was basically Caesar worship.

Where is that mark on the forehead? Do you have any pictures of it?

Shalom

RockSolid
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:34 AM
Where is that mark on the forehead? Do you have any pictures of it?

This is what really gets me, people believe this kind of stuff that really does not match prophecy. They eat it like candy.

Shalom

Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the servants of God have literal seals on their foreheads?

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:39 AM
Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the servants of God have literal seals on their foreheads?

That is a great way to counter my point, Excellent way. I see it. Good feedback, thanks.

Shalom

DaveGerard
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:45 AM
That is a great way to counter my point, Excellent way. I see it. Good feedback, thanks.

Shalom

That still doesn't prove that the mark had anything to do with caesar. However I do think that the mark of the beast is the opposite of the seal of God.

RockSolid
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:36 PM
Ok you tell me. When in history did the whole world follow after a single religious figure?

The "world" doesn't mean "the entire planet". Examples,

1. Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
The entire planet wasn't registered. It was a local registration that included the Roman Empire, the known world.

2. Acts 11:28 And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius).
A global famine would have been recorded in history and would have been disastrous. However, a local famine is recorded in Israel in the days of Claudius.

Josephus Antiquities 20:1:3-2:5
Herod also, the brother of the deceased Agrippa, who was then possessed of the royal authority over Chalcis, petitioned Claudius Caesar for the authority over the temple, and the money of the sacred treasure, and the choice of the high priests, and obtained all that he petitioned for.
ABOUT this time it was that Helena, queen of Adiabene, and her son Izates, changed their course of life
Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem; for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to procure food withal, queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others of them to Cyprus, to bring a cargo of dried figs.

3. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This was to supposed happen before that generation passed away.
Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Was it proclaimed to the entire planet? No. Was it proclaimed to the entire "world" before that generation passed away? Yes.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing-as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Conclusion: The "world" did follow after a figure that claimed to be a god, Caesar.

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2011, 07:08 PM
How many people resurrected people from the dead? Only one. Jesus is the only one. That is why the Jews should listen to the evidence that shows he is the Christ. But they wont. Why? It does not fit their model of Messiah.

How many people have brought fire from heaven towards the earth in the presence of 70,000 people since the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Only one, the false prophet. People at least should be curious about the evidence, but most arent even curious. Not at all. Why? It does not fit their model.

Rev 12:9 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ...

Unfortunately, it is true. He is that good at being a deceiver.

Shalom

DaveGerard
Jun 3rd 2011, 07:40 PM
How many people resurrected people from the dead? Only one. Jesus is the only one. That is why the Jews should listen to the evidence that shows he is the Christ. But they wont. Why? It does not fit their model of Messiah.

How many people have brought fire from heaven towards the earth in the presence of 70,000 people since the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Only one, the false prophet. People at least should be curious about the evidence, but most arent even curious. Not at all. Why? It does not fit their model.

Rev 12:9 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ...

Unfortunately, it is true. He is that good at being a deceiver.

Shalom

The case could likewise be made that what many of us futurists believe does not fit into your model either. This is why we debate issues rather than run down opposing points of view.

BTW...just curious, but why do you frequently end your posts with "Shalom"? Are you jewish or something?

DaveGerard
Jun 3rd 2011, 08:06 PM
The "world" doesn't mean "the entire planet". Examples,

1. Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
The entire planet wasn't registered. It was a local registration that included the Roman Empire, the known world.

2. Acts 11:28 And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius).
A global famine would have been recorded in history and would have been disastrous. However, a local famine is recorded in Israel in the days of Claudius.

Josephus Antiquities 20:1:3-2:5
Herod also, the brother of the deceased Agrippa, who was then possessed of the royal authority over Chalcis, petitioned Claudius Caesar for the authority over the temple, and the money of the sacred treasure, and the choice of the high priests, and obtained all that he petitioned for.
ABOUT this time it was that Helena, queen of Adiabene, and her son Izates, changed their course of life
Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem; for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to procure food withal, queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others of them to Cyprus, to bring a cargo of dried figs.

3. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This was to supposed happen before that generation passed away.
Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Was it proclaimed to the entire planet? No. Was it proclaimed to the entire "world" before that generation passed away? Yes.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing-as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Conclusion: The "world" did follow after a figure that claimed to be a god, Caesar.

So are you implying that all tribulation was fulfilled in the times of Caesar? So the messiah that throws down the desolator has already come also? Are you implying then that we are in the thousands years or have already been through that time? Are we in the eternity already?

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't wash with me at all.

Servant89
Jun 4th 2011, 02:16 AM
The case could likewise be made that what many of us futurists believe does not fit into your model either. This is why we debate issues rather than run down opposing points of view.

BTW...just curious, but why do you frequently end your posts with "Shalom"? Are you jewish or something?

I have a puertorrican body, a Christian soul and a Spirit that loves Israel. And I whole heartly agree with what you said, except there is on tiny bitty exception... When historical data shows up validating the model, it is a validated model, no longer a theory. As an engineer, we create computer models to simulate real life situations, but those models remain a fairy tale until they are validated with real data, once that is done, then the model is reliable. That is what I have... a validated model, with data that matches 95% of the prophecy. The futurist have something that God told us several times to guard against... the imagination or opinion of men regarding how the future will unfold. That is the difference between our models. I say: Look at the past.... google it and you can see it. The others say... trust me, I know what I am talking about regarding the future (which carries no weight at all).

Shalom (Peace)

quiet dove
Jun 4th 2011, 03:03 AM
I have a puertorrican body, a Christian soul and a Spirit that loves Israel. And I whole heartly agree with what you said, except there is on tiny bitty exception... When historical data shows up validating the model, it is a validated model, no longer a theory. As an engineer, we create computer models to simulate real life situations, but those models remain a fairy tale until they are validated with real data, once that is done, then the model is reliable. That is what I have... a validated model, with data that matches 95% of the prophecy. The futurist have something that God told us several times to guard against... the imagination or opinion of men regarding how the future will unfold. That is the difference between our models. I say: Look at the past.... google it and you can see it. The others say... trust me, I know what I am talking about regarding the future (which carries no weight at all).

Shalom (Peace)
The problem servant89, is that the model you speak of I assume to be history? And many would disagree that what is applied of history to certain Biblical prophecies being fulfilled, actually are the fulfillment of those prophecies. Granted, you guys have kinda lost me here in the thread and I am going in the statement of futurist being "imagination or opinion" of man. When the same could be said in regards to the application of certain historical facts actually being the fulfillment of the prophecy they are said to fulfill.

My point being is we need to be careful when slinging around the accusation toward differing thought of "imagination and opinion" when if fact, the same can work both ways. I believe an event to still be future, someone else believes it already past, so obviously I disagree with a particular event in history being considered fulfillment. Case in point, 70AD destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, many believe it fulfilled much of Matt 24, many do not, but to say that either are based on "imagination" is really crossing the line of giving the other at least the benefit of being a sincere seeker interpreting scripture and history in as honest a manner as we ourselves are doing.

Servant89
Jun 4th 2011, 01:51 PM
The problem servant89, is that the model you speak of I assume to be history? And many would disagree that what is applied of history to certain Biblical prophecies being fulfilled, actually are the fulfillment of those prophecies. Granted, you guys have kinda lost me here in the thread and I am going in the statement of futurist being "imagination or opinion" of man. When the same could be said in regards to the application of certain historical facts actually being the fulfillment of the prophecy they are said to fulfill.

My point being is we need to be careful when slinging around the accusation toward differing thought of "imagination and opinion" when if fact, the same can work both ways. I believe an event to still be future, someone else believes it already past, so obviously I disagree with a particular event in history being considered fulfillment. Case in point, 70AD destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, many believe it fulfilled much of Matt 24, many do not, but to say that either are based on "imagination" is really crossing the line of giving the other at least the benefit of being a sincere seeker interpreting scripture and history in as honest a manner as we ourselves are doing.

I did not imagine history. There is only one truth, everything else is a lie.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 5th 2011, 06:03 PM
This is how I see it.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The way I interpret that verse is that NO ONE CAN SAY: "That God gave them the authority to interpret prophetic passages, that such an ability belongs to them alone, that it is private, not for the public".

Therefore, interpretation of how prophecies are going to be fulfilled ...is for the public. And that makes your interpretation, as valid as mine.... as long as it pertains to the future.

Concerning the preterist view. I have not seen the data, but if the dates are compelling, especially in terms of days as mentioned in the Bible, the stopping of sacrifices, etc., I will change my theology with regards to those passages being fulfilled, because I do not argue with data. I would not say to data that actually fulfills Scripture... "you are not it".

The only place in the BIble where Jesus called the disciples "fools" is in Luke 24:25 after the disciples shared with Jesus the historical data that matched the prophecies and they still did not believe Scripture had been fulfilled.

The first thing Jesus said after his baptism in the Holy Spirit was "this day, in your ears, this Scripture has been fulfilled." But no one believed him.

At least people should be curious. I am curious. I will find out more about the preterist position. I will.

Peace

quiet dove
Jun 5th 2011, 06:07 PM
I did not imagine history. There is only one truth, everything else is a lie.

Shalom

My point is that many believe history records the fulfillment of Revelation in the 70AD destruction of the temple, but others put forth strong support that those prophecies were not fulfilled with the Roman destruction of the Jerusalem and the temple. Again, "imagination" is not the determining factor for either side of that argument.

I did not even get into the "private interpretation" aspect and did not mean to imply anything in that direction.

There are preterist amongst our members here, I am sure they will be happy to talk to you about their position.

quiet dove
Jun 5th 2011, 06:16 PM
This is how I see it.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The way I interpret that verse is that NO ONE CAN SAY: "That God gave them the authority to interpret prophetic passages, that such an ability belongs to them alone, that it is private, not for the public".

Therefore, interpretation of how prophecies are going to be fulfilled ...is for the public. And that makes your interpretation, as valid as mine.... as long as it pertains to the future.

Concerning the preterist view. I have not seen the data, but if the dates are compelling, especially in terms of days as mentioned in the Bible, the stopping of sacrifices, etc., I will change my theology with regards to those passages being fulfilled, because I do not argue with data. I would not say to data that actually fulfills Scripture... "you are not it".

The only place in the BIble where Jesus called the disciples "fools" is in Luke 24:25 after the disciples shared with Jesus the historical data that matched the prophecies and they still did not believe Scripture had been fulfilled.

The first thing Jesus said after his baptism in the Holy Spirit was "this day, in your ears, this Scripture has been fulfilled." But no one believed him.

At least people should be curious. I am curious. I will find out more about the preterist position. I will.

Peace

Agreed, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the coming Messiah. There is ample proof of this, not to mention the time frame is not repeatable for Jesus first Advent. However, with Revelation and some of the prophecies in Daniel, there is much disagreement as to whether or not history truly bears proof of all these things being fulfilled. There in the disagreement of the different views, but that does not equate to the disagreeing view assuming to have "private interpretation" or "imagination", or "denial" for that matter. We all believe the Bible with sincere desire to understand in correctly.

Servant89
Jun 5th 2011, 08:14 PM
We all believe the Bible with sincere desire to understand in correctly.

I believe you. I do. Unfortunately, my donkey arrogance keeps me from treating Christians as equals or better in wisdom, in dealing with the subject of interpretation of prophecy.... and for that, I repent.

Did I mention I hate the way I smell?

P.S. Lord, bless quiet dove big time (because I appreciate that person), in Jesus' name, Amen.

Peace

quiet dove
Jun 5th 2011, 08:25 PM
I believe you. I do. Unfortunately, my donkey arrogance keeps me from treating Christians as equals or better in wisdom, in dealing with the subject of interpretation of prophecy.... and for that, I repent.

Did I mention I hate the way I smell?

P.S. Lord, bless quiet dove big time (because I appreciate that person), in Jesus' name, Amen.

Peace

Your fine, we all go through this in our posting here,(some of us, like myself, more than once..:rolleyes:) none of us has bypassed this bit of misunderstanding each other. One thing I have learned, is even though someone else has a different end time view, if I slow down, really read and ponder their words, I often learn something. I still may not agree with their view, but I can still learn something. You never know when the light will come on regarding some aspect of all these things.:idea:

Hanging out around here really will cause you to search inside yourself(again, speaking from personal experience, most likely more than once) but we all grow from that process.


I mean I can mess up in the "twinkling of an eye".......sorry, couldn't resist, but it true, that's how fast I can blunder something
So no worries.....:hug:

Diggindeeper
Jun 5th 2011, 10:18 PM
Here is why I hold what is called the historical view, and I admit, it took a lot of study and convincing for myself because I had always been taught the futurist view. But here goes===

I believe ...God's measure of four hundred and ninety years of time was in dealing with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, ending in the Jewish rejection of the Messiah which resulted in the destruction of the City of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Seventy Weeks of the Prophet Daniel

Daniel 9:20-27

The Prophetic scale that I use: 1 day equals 1 year "I have appointed thee each day for a year" Ezekiel 4:6
Each prophetic week equals 7 years

This was God's timeline for dealing with the Judah nation. These 70 weeks were the second time period of 490 years in which God dealt with the Judah nation. The first time resulted in a 70 year captivity, but the second period resulted in utter desolation.. II Chronicles 36:14-21, Matthew 23:37-38

I believe I see this point of view taught by many of the Protestant Reformers dating back many centuries. Many giants of the faith such as John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Huss, Charles Spurgeon, John and Charles Wesley and Jonathan Edwards were strong proponents of the Historicist view and many suffered in defense of their belief. I know this interpretation stands in contrast to the modern teaching of Futurism, but here are important years I've found:

457 B.C. 4 B.C. 27 A.D. 31 A.D. 34 A.D. 70 A.D.

In reading the Biblical accounts of the history of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, it is obvious that they became a very sinful and rebellious people toward the Lord their God. For 490 years from the time of their early history through the reign of King Zedekiah they rebelled against the laws of God and perverted their religion and culture by incorporating heathen practices into every area of their national life. They disregarded the law of the Sabbath, so therefore God based the length of their captivity upon the number of years of their violation. The 490 years of violation divided by every 7th year equals 70 years of captivity. II Chronicles 36:14-21; Jeremiah 25:11(This was the 1st 490 year period.)

(continued in next post...

Diggindeeper
Jun 5th 2011, 10:19 PM
(Continued)

The 490 Years of 70 Weeks
457 B.C. - 34 A.D.


The first sixty-nine weeks of this time measure (Daniel 9:25) contained an initial 'seven week' or 49 year period (457 B.C. to 408 B.C.). This period was a time of restoration and repairing of the walls and streets of the city of Jerusalem under the supervision of Ezra and Nehemiah (Nehemiah 2:8-17; 4:17). These were 'troublous times' because of extreme opposition from enemy neighbors (Nehemiah 4:7).

The sixty-two week period or 434 years extended from 408 B.C. to 27A.D. at the time of Jesus' water baptism by John the Baptist in the River Jordan. This completed the first sixty-nine weeks of the prophecy which was a period of 483 years.

After the sixty-two weeks or "in the midst of" the 70th week (after his 3 1/2 year ministry) Messiah was cut off and officially "caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease" (Daniel 9:26-27). This was none other than the crucifixion of Jesus when he 'confirmed' or ratified the new Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:8-13; Matthew 26:27-28; Romans 15:8. This took place in 31 A.D.

The stoning of Stephen three and a half years later ended the period of the 70th week.

Jewish Rejection of Jesus the Messiah

In spite of the many witnesses that Jesus had concerning Himself as proof of His Deity, the Jewish leaders refused to accept Him as the Promised Messiah. He therefore uttered numerous statements of divine rejection which resulted in severe judgment upon the Jewish people until now. At the trial of Jesus they themselves said, "His blood be on us and our children" (Matthew 27:25).

Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:1-44
Matthew 27:62-66 Mark 12:1-12
Luke 19:11-14; 41:48
John 15:22-25

40 years later, after still rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and continuing to offer their animal sacrifices, then came the total desolation of Jerusalem and the temple, putting an end to the sacrifices forever.

Jesus himself prophesied of the coming destruction of Jerusalem

The destruction of Jerusalem was a result of the Jewish rejection of Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death is fulfillment of the Old Testament law of sacrifice. The Jewish continuation of animal sacrifice after Calvary was, it seems to me, the "abomination of desolation" that resulted in the utter destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Prince Titus in 70 A.D. (Daniel 9:26).

Matthew 24:1-28; 21:17-22
Luke 21:5-33; 23:27-31
Luke 19:41-44

One would greatly benefit by researching what happened to Christians during that time from 66 AD to 70 AD! There has never been another time like that for believers, and I doubt that there can ever be. It was 3 1/2 years of truly 'GREAT tribulation'. Jesus said, "THIS generation shall not pass till all this happens", and sure enough, that generation saw it happen.

So that's my 'nutshell' of what I believe and why I guess I would be listed as a historicist.

shepherdsword
Jun 5th 2011, 11:10 PM
I believe you. I do. Unfortunately, my donkey arrogance keeps me from treating Christians as equals or better in wisdom, in dealing with the subject of interpretation of prophecy.... and for that, I repent.

Did I mention I hate the way I smell?

P.S. Lord, bless quiet dove big time (because I appreciate that person), in Jesus' name, Amen.

Peace

:rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

I believe in the prophetic rule of double reference. This makes me a historicist as well as a futurist.

Ceegen
Jun 6th 2011, 11:01 PM
Things happen in a certain order, and Jesus said "Behold, I have foretold you all things", and certainly He has. There is no reason to be deceived.

Mark 13:14 (KJV) "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"
and
Matthew 24:15 (KJV) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

So what did Daniel say? You should read the whole of Chapter 12 in Daniel, because it mirrors what happens in Revelation perfectly to better explain what happens. Specifically though, the abomination of desolation:

Daniel 12:11 (KJV) "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

So what in the book of Revelation is there about this? What is being talked about concerning the abomination of desolation? The abomination of desolation is an entity, something living, not the "dome of the rock" as many suppose it is.

Revelation 13:11-13 (KJV):

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Who is that lamb that speaks like a dragon? Who is the dragon? "... the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, ..." Revelation 20:2 (KJV)
So why mention the "lamb" that speaks like a dragon? What is the significance of the "lamb" in that verse? "Who is the true lamb of God?" - That is your answer. Satan poses as Jesus to deceive, else how could Satan deceive the "whole world"?

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Only Satan would tell you to worship something earthly or worldly and not God. Jesus never would.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This "lamb" that speaks like a dragon has the power to make fire come down from heaven on earth "in the sight of men". It is Satan, a supernatural being, who is the prince of this world that does these things. Satan makes fire come down from heaven on earth in the sight of men because it will be the sign they seek.

An evil and wicked generation seeketh after a sign, and none will be given it except the prophet Jonas! These den of vipers will have their sign, but not from God because God is not tempted of man to show a sign to them. Satan though loves the attention, and will show signs and wonders, so that HE is proclaimed as a god and even above God Almighty:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (KJV) -
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

It is clearly an entity, which is most likely Satan himself.

And it is these things which you should "watch" for that Jesus warned us of. All else fails except our trust in God, including storing up treasures here on earth which rust and moth do corrupt. God will perform miracles in those last days, and you have no need to take anything with you. Just as God provided Elijah with food and drink in the desert, so shall he provide his servants here on earth what we need. Your Father in heaven knows all things for which you have need of.

Servant89
Jun 7th 2011, 12:54 AM
:rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

I believe in the prophetic rule of double reference. This makes me a historicist as well as a futurist.

As soon as history shows up matching prophecy, i am ready to upgrade my theology.

Shalom

svfox
Jun 7th 2011, 05:00 AM
This has to do with the gospel. Where buying and selling is to teach and be taught the gospel. So as Satan corrupts the churches the true believers are no longer present.
How does Satan get rid of them, no idea.

But being a parable it might also mean they can't and sell at the market either.
This verse comes at the end of the chapter which is even more complex.
Because those that wouldn't kneel and worship the beast were killed in the previous verses.






And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Servant89
Jun 8th 2011, 10:16 AM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/207362-False-Prophet-of-Rev-13-we-have-a-suspect-!

That thread provides more information on this subject.

Peace