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Archiveit
Sep 18th 2008, 10:39 PM
This is probably a variation of a question that's been asked before (or perhaps this is actually 2 questions), but I thought I'd try anyway. Now, I'm sure that we can all agree that the basis of the Christian faith is salvation through belief in the sacrifice of Christ. This obviously involves a focus on the spiritual, rather than the worldly. However, like it or not every one of us is stuck in this world until the day we die. This ultimately begs the question, just how immersed into the world can one become? The basis for this question is as follows, which is perhaps the second part of this post. As mentioned, salvation is a result of belief in Christ, and it is generally accepted that salvation is a result of faith alone, not actions. However, there are a series of behaviors that Christians are expected to adhere to, and this can be very confusing given the previous statement. Compare for example the book of Galatians, in which Paul heavily stresses the fact that one is saved by faith alone and rejects the need for law, and the book of 1st Corinthians, where he seems to get very legal. Furthermore, if one looks to Galations 5:19-21 one finds this:

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
There are similar quotes elsewhere in Paul's letters, and it is important to first note that Paul says one overcomes temptation of these sins once one accepts Christ. However, it goes completely against the Christian doctrine to assume that one can completely avoid all sin. Who here can say that they have not guilty of anything on this list since accepting Christ. If you can, then look into the "and the like" category and see if anything pops into your head. I just had a mini fit of rage myself the other day, which is still a fit of rage regardless of the size. Can you tell me you never feel rage about, say, that guy who pulls out in front of you and then slows down by 10 mph. No? Then keep thinking until you find a scenario. According to the last sentence of the quote above, if you have done any of the above you are doomed.

Now let me return to faith. By faith one is supposed to be saved (exonerated?). So here is the paradox. One cannot be perfect in actions, so we are all guilty of sinning, thus we "will not inherit the kingdom of God". However, once saved one is supposed to be able to avoid all sin.

My only conclusion is that I made a mistake somewhere, and I think it is in the second part of the paradox. I believe sinful actions never fully stop, though faith does help one to be more aware of it. This is why belief in Christ is important. This takes us back again to the legalistic stance of Paul sometimes. What if a Christian does some of these things?

Now, I'm not trying to say it is ok for a Christian to engage in drunken orgies for Dionysus because they will be forgiven in the end (and before I go on I just want to say that I am not taking part in drunken orgies for Dionysus), but I am pointing out that forgiveness of sin through salvation, by definition, does involve sin taking place. So I guess the second part of my question is what is the general agreement on sin while saved?

Coming back to my first question now, which sort of sprang up when I was thinking about this one now, I am curious as to how one should reconcile the sacred and the secular. Now, I'm not saying that everything worldly is sinful, but of course some is. I have a spiritual life, but of course I interact with the outside world a lot.

For example, I go out to see movies, with friends (most of them Christian) sometimes with the harsh language, violence, and sex that is so hard to avoid in movies today, I occasionally go out drinking with friends (again, most of them Christian), I enjoy listening to a lot of rock music, and I find the cultures and religions of Asia to be fascinating and plan to visit many of the old temples when I go to Japan in a little over a year (though I do not actually believe in said religions). I do not exactly call these things sinful, but at the same time they are not exactly spiritual. Furthermore, at the end of the day they do not weaken my faith in Christ. When it comes to interacting with the world, I believe that is the most important criteria.

I could actually go a lot further, but I'd like to see some responses to what I have here first. Thanks for reading.

TrustingFollower
Sep 18th 2008, 11:50 PM
Repent and live. With that we have many examples of people in the bible that were not perfect. Did King David sin? Yes he did, but what did he do every time? He fell down and repented of his sin. The bible tells us the King David was a man after God's own heart. That is what is expected of you. There has only been one in this world that lived a sinless life and he paid your debt. That does not mean that we can go out and do anything we want. That means that we need to strive to be like him. When we fall we need to pick ourselves up turn to him and repent asking forgiveness. If you die to yourself everyday you can achieve a life that will be worthy of being able to be called a child of God and a co-heir of the inheritance.

Turn your life over to Jesus and and let your relationship with him be your religion. Christ fulfilled the law and purchased your soul at a price only he could pay.

Matthew 11

28 ¶"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

threebigrocks
Sep 20th 2008, 06:22 PM
Coming back to my first question now, which sort of sprang up when I was thinking about this one now, I am curious as to how one should reconcile the sacred and the secular. Now, I'm not saying that everything worldly is sinful, but of course some is. I have a spiritual life, but of course I interact with the outside world a lot.

The world will be reconciled come judgement. All that is of the world and the earth itself will be consumed and destroyed eternally. Those who are not of Christ but the world will be judged according to their works and cast out of His presence eternally. The world and faith will never be reconciled together. One is chaff and the other wheat.

What do you mean by spiritual life? Thing is, none of us, believer or not has any choice but to exist in this world. The difference is who lives by the world and who has left it behind, looking forward the future and the promise we have in Christ.

Scruffy Kid
Sep 20th 2008, 07:17 PM
Dear Archiveit,
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's great to have you here!! :pp :pp :pp


About Your Questions

I really like the set of questions you ask! At core, it seems to me, the question is "How does the living of our life, here and now, and with all its interests and aspects, pertain to the eternal life that we are promised in Christ Jesus?" It's an extremely important question, and one that we have to wrestle with deeply and all the time and lifelong.


Some Tough Things the Scripture Says

The heart of the answer, I think, is given by St. Paul when he says (Gal. 2:20)
it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Similarly, he says (Phil. 3:7-8)
But whatever I had that was of value, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ.[INDENT] There's nothing about this teaching, however, that is distinctively, or ideosyncratically, Pauline. Jesus (Matt. 13:44-46) speaks of our choice to embrace God's kingdom and salvation like this: [INDENT] The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. The characters in these two short parables differ in that the former was not seeking God, or something of surpassing value, but just wandering about, when he stumbled upon the treasure he found, while the latter was actively engaged in a search for that which was precious when he found that which was incredibly precious. But both are alike in that their actually taking possession of this wonderful treasure required of each one that he "sell all that he had" to purchase that treasure. Again (Mark 8:34-37; compare Matt. 16:24-27f., Luke 9:23-26, and even Matt. 10:36-39), Jesus tells us "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? For what can a man give in return for his life?"


Where the Rubber Hits the Road

In the context of the questions you asked in your post, two main areas of vital interest come up.
(1) What is the relationship between Christian life, and its activities and concern, and secular life or other interests and the like?

(2) If our receiving eternal life is (at least in part) a matter of our obedience, then what becomes of the central truth that it is Christ who saves us, and that our faith in Him is the pivotal means by which God rescues us from our sin? Your post is very helpful in making clear how these questions are not abstract theological debates, but rather matters of how we believe, and how we live our lives, from day to day. It's also helpful in sketching how these two concerns are closely related, one to another.

The first question is the practical one, and the one that seems to be pushing you to ask your questions.

However the second question might also be pressing if part of your question has in mind this haunting thought: "I have trusted in Christ -- or so I think. Yet there is a certain amount of sinfulness in my life, and maybe more than I'd like to admit. With this, there's some doublemindedness. Yes, I truly love God, but my enjoyment of other things, which includes some things that are dubious, makes me less than sure that I really want, even in principle, to give up things I like for God, even if those things are actually somewhat wrong, somewhat sinful." I'm not trying to second-guess you in particular -- how could I? We've never even met! -- but rather I'm posing a set of concerns that many people have and wrestle with, which (it seems to me) your question brings up to the surface.


Living in Balance.
Finding the Right Way to Live as God Means Us to Live

Certainly it's the case that God made the world and all that's in it -- the beauties of nature, the human capacity to develop thought and culture, the pleasures of friendship, and of food and drink and so on, as part of the good world which He designed as a whole, and which He provided for humanity's full expression and walk. (This is expressed in Genesis 1 and 2, among many other places.) And so certainly it's the case that Christian life is not some pinched and narrow one, restricted to bible studies and fasting and going to church, and fearful of the full range of life. Jesus loved life, found nature beautiful and inspiring, delighted in other human beings, and liked parties: his enemies accused him of being a glutton and drinking too much, and also of having disreputable friends. At the other extreme of this life's woes and joys, Jesus had his guts wrenched (Gk. sphlanxnidzomai) when he saw people in physical distress, loneliness, or social exclusion; and wept over death; and he went about healing people, not only of physical infirmities, but of the full range of problems -- social, psychological, physical and spiritual -- that weighed them down. Jesus, evidently, cared, enthusiastically and free-heartedly, for the whole human person, and for the whole of life as God made it.

Nevertheless, Jesus' primary concern was the Father, and the Father's will. He was incredibly disciplined, knowing the lost condition of wretched humankind, and willing to pay any price to rescue us; and more than that, His heart was utterly fixed upon God, and determined to follow the Father's will, and to seek God's Kingdom

Given all this, in the light of Who God is, and Who Christ is and the fullness of God's goodness,
and His intention in creating us and in redeeming us, what does it mean for us to follow God.



These, I believe, are questions that your post raises, and which this thread needs to address.

Thanks for getting us started thinking about all this!!
Let's continue to talk about it!!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

BroRog
Sep 20th 2008, 07:31 PM
This is probably a variation of a question that's been asked before (or perhaps this is actually 2 questions), but I thought I'd try anyway. Now, I'm sure that we can all agree that the basis of the Christian faith is salvation through belief in the sacrifice of Christ. This obviously involves a focus on the spiritual, rather than the worldly. However, like it or not every one of us is stuck in this world until the day we die. This ultimately begs the question, just how immersed into the world can one become?

Jesus said that we are to be "in the world but not of the world". I think your first question is asking for clarification on the difference between the two. In my own thinking I have reserved the term "worldly" for those folks who are "of the world." To be "of the world", as I see it, is to be so totally committed to the world as to not care about the spiritual, or the eternal. To be worldly is to live as if this world is all there is.

Nonetheless, when I think of Jesus' exhortation to live "in the world but not of the world" I can't help thinking about the time he washed the disciple's feet. His feet washing example says many things and one thing it seems to say is, "you can't walk around in this world without getting muck on your feet." Living in the world is a messy business and not always clear cut.


Compare for example the book of Galatians, in which Paul heavily stresses the fact that one is saved by faith alone and rejects the need for law, and the book of 1st Corinthians, where he seems to get very legal. Furthermore, if one looks to Galations 5:19-21 one finds this:

Quote:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are similar quotes elsewhere in Paul's letters, and it is important to first note that Paul says one overcomes temptation of these sins once one accepts Christ. However, it goes completely against the Christian doctrine to assume that one can completely avoid all sin.

This passage in Galatians stands in contrast to his subsequent statement about the fruits of the Spirit. Paul places these in stark contrast to each other so that he might make a point about our spirituality in Christ. The assumption, I think, is that sexual immorality, impurity, and the rest are symptoms of a mind and heart given over to the world and what it can offer. These outward behaviors are symptomatic of an inner darkness of heart, a missing appreciation of things eternal, a false valuation of immediate gratification, and a wrong headed view of the sinner's true state. The fruits of the Spirit, by contrast, are inward realities of the heart and mind: love, mercy, humility, etc. which those of faith carry with them as they walk around in the muck. We can't completely avoid sin. But we have the heart and mind to see it for what it is, to repudiate it when it occurs, and to petition God for mercy and guidance away from it.

If I understand your question also, we are discussing whether Paul has declared that the discordant, among other base impulses, will find themselves in hell. To answer this, I think, we must bear in mind the polar contrast Paul sets up between the discordant person and those who have the gifts of the spirit. It is one thing to be sold on this world and live in discord on that basis, and another thing to want harmony while finding one's self in discord with others.


Now let me return to faith. By faith one is supposed to be saved (exonerated?). So here is the paradox. One cannot be perfect in actions, so we are all guilty of sinning, thus we "will not inherit the kingdom of God". However, once saved one is supposed to be able to avoid all sin.

My only conclusion is that I made a mistake somewhere, and I think it is in the second part of the paradox. I believe sinful actions never fully stop, though faith does help one to be more aware of it. This is why belief in Christ is important. This takes us back again to the legalistic stance of Paul sometimes. What if a Christian does some of these things?

I agree with your premise. We can mostly avoid sin as we mature in Christ, but we are never totally free of it. And I also agree that faith in Christ is the key. But the locus of the general principle is found in your earlier statement about our spirituality. True spirituality, unlike the "worldly" spirituality, is what the Spirit is doing in us and with us, not what we attempt to do for ourselves (as perhaps with yoga or meditation.) The difference between a sinner and a "righteous sinner" is found in the heart and mind of a person. The polar contrast between them will be evident in the commitments of their walk. A man who is totally commited to this world has no concern at all for the eternal and is given over to the temporal aspects of life. He has no concern for others except as it will give him an advantage in this world. He is totally immersed in this world and has no heart and gives no thought to things above. The "righteous sinner" on the other hand, gets muck on his shoes as he walks through this world, but his heart is pure, and humble, and good. His care is genuine and unaduterated. And his actions are single minded and without pretense.


For example, I go out to see movies, with friends (most of them Christian) sometimes with the harsh language, violence, and sex that is so hard to avoid in movies today, I occasionally go out drinking with friends (again, most of them Christian), I enjoy listening to a lot of rock music, and I find the cultures and religions of Asia to be fascinating and plan to visit many of the old temples when I go to Japan in a little over a year (though I do not actually believe in said religions). I do not exactly call these things sinful, but at the same time they are not exactly spiritual. Furthermore, at the end of the day they do not weaken my faith in Christ. When it comes to interacting with the world, I believe that is the most important criteria.

In general, I agree with your valuation of the important criteria. I would not presume to tell you what to do or not do. All I can say is that as I walk around in the muck of the world, I try to keep my head and my heart out of it, to have a clear head, and to see it for what it is. Growing in sanctification means, among other things, that we grow in wisdom, which is what God wants for us as we experience things in life. And so, my advise would be that, as you live out these many experiences, keep your mind on things above, and guard your heart and affections.

Richard H
Sep 20th 2008, 08:38 PM
Welcome to the board, Archiveit!
‘Good questions. These are questions more Christians should be asking themselves rather than blindly following the lead of the World.

Here’s my 2 cents:

1Co 10:23 Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up.

Going to bars is permissible, but if an unbeliever sees you, he will assume that you are no different than he.
It does not build you up and may actually be a hindrance to others.

I rarely go to movies – although I did see Transformers in the theater.
I try to be careful what I watch on TV.

Too much coming from that box is purely negative. Personally, Springer and the like, grate not only on my nerves, but I think on my spirit as well.
Sometimes I am not in control of the remote, so I leave the room when certain shows and movies are on.
There’s a huge amount of “white magic” propaganda funneled into our minds these days and I just try to avoid it.
It certainly does not help my walk with the Lord and I don’t think He would be watching it either.

I will confess to being a fan of Law and Order and the CSIs – since they seem to be always on the air. J

TV that is simply full of strife or it is wrongly portraying spiritual matters, I avoid it as entertainment.
One might wish to watch some things so as to be better equipped for witnessing to the unsaved, but they add nothing to your spiritual maturity and feed you the bread of the world.

This is not to say that we should be so separated from the world that we are unaware, but rather our awareness – our perspective – should be that of Christ.
Jesus was among sinners, but He was calling them into new life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Richard

Archiveit
Sep 21st 2008, 02:56 AM
What do you mean by spiritual life? Thing is, none of us, believer or not has any choice but to exist in this world. The difference is who lives by the world and who has left it behind, looking forward the future and the promise we have in Christ.

By "spiritual life" I refer to a life dedicated to the (Holy) Spirit. I was using it to make a distinction between what comes from God and what comes from the world. Or should I be more willing to blur them at times since the world does come from God after all?

Archiveit
Sep 21st 2008, 03:50 AM
Jesus said that we are to be "in the world but not of the world". I think your first question is asking for clarification on the difference between the two. In my own thinking I have reserved the term "worldly" for those folks who are "of the world." To be "of the world", as I see it, is to be so totally committed to the world as to not care about the spiritual, or the eternal. To be worldly is to live as if this world is all there is.

I think this makes sense. I spoke with the leader of my worship team today, bringing up warning about love of the world in 1st John chapter 2 as the basis of the conversation, and I got some pretty good answers which seem to coincide with this (though in more detail).



This passage in Galatians stands in contrast to his subsequent statement about the fruits of the Spirit. Paul places these in stark contrast to each other so that he might make a point about our spirituality in Christ. The assumption, I think, is that sexual immorality, impurity, and the rest are symptoms of a mind and heart given over to the world and what it can offer. These outward behaviors are symptomatic of an inner darkness of heart, a missing appreciation of things eternal, a false valuation of immediate gratification, and a wrong headed view of the sinner's true state. The fruits of the Spirit, by contrast, are inward realities of the heart and mind: love, mercy, humility, etc. which those of faith carry with them as they walk around in the muck. We can't completely avoid sin. But we have the heart and mind to see it for what it is, to repudiate it when it occurs, and to petition God for mercy and guidance away from it.

If I understand your question also, we are discussing whether Paul has declared that the discordant, among other base impulses, will find themselves in hell. To answer this, I think, we must bear in mind the polar contrast Paul sets up between the discordant person and those who have the gifts of the spirit. It is one thing to be sold on this world and live in discord on that basis, and another thing to want harmony while finding one's self in discord with others.


----------------------------------------------------------------


The difference between a sinner and a "righteous sinner" is found in the heart and mind of a person. The polar contrast between them will be evident in the commitments of their walk. A man who is totally commited to this world has no concern at all for the eternal and is given over to the temporal aspects of life. He has no concern for others except as it will give him an advantage in this world. He is totally immersed in this world and has no heart and gives no thought to things above. The "righteous sinner" on the other hand, gets muck on his shoes as he walks through this world, but his heart is pure, and humble, and good. His care is genuine and unaduterated. And his actions are single minded and without pretense.


I think this is along the lines of what I was thinking. So your point here, if I am correct, is that what really matters is what is going on in the heart during sin? That is, one who consistantly shows signs of the given sinful traits most likely is actually going to be more seriously judged based on something wrong deep within them (in their heart, so to speak). On the other hand, when one has pure motives, but stumbles into sin, they are not judged the same way because they do not have the same negative "inward traits" (that is, someone not ultimately striving for salvation through their life).





And so, my advise would be that, as you live out these many experiences, keep your mind on things above, and guard your heart and affections.

Thanks for the post and the advice. It's what I always try. ;)

Archiveit
Sep 21st 2008, 03:54 AM
I'd like to thank everyone for their responses. I can tell that you have all put a lot of thought into them.

Thought I'd throw in this bit from my discussion on a similar topic with my worship group leader. The (incredibly generalized) result of the discussion was that it is for the most part ok to interact with the secular world, and even take pleasure in parts of it, but there is a problem when one begins to live for it.

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 04:45 AM
Yup.

And my short and lazy answer: Working out our salvation is, simply put, learning to live less in the flesh and more in the Spirit. This is a process which God teaches each believer in a very distinct and individual way. Press on!

dan
Sep 21st 2008, 06:26 AM
...The more spiritual you become, the more you try to mold your environment in God's Spiritual Image.
Acting on your surroundings in a loving manner.

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 06:39 AM
1Co 10:23 Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up.

Going to bars is permissible, but if an unbeliever sees you, he will assume that you are no different than he.
It does not build you up and may actually be a hindrance to others.Or the unbeliever may assume you have a well-thought-out faith that recognizes Jesus drank alcohol. Taking a severe puritanical position may actually be a hindrance to others. I find the only people who have a problem when they see me drinking alcohol are Christians.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 07:04 AM
Or the unbeliever may assume you have a well-thought-out faith that recognizes Jesus drank alcohol. Taking a severe puritanical position may actually be a hindrance to others. I find the only people who have a problem when they see me drinking alcohol are Christians.

As ‘Puritanical” as it may seem, we ARE called to holiness.

I’ve had my times of back-sliding. I let my sense of liberty lead me astray.
Later, I was discussing faith with a friend and he asked me how I could believe as I do and yet do as I had been doing.

I had no answer.

Richard

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 08:22 AM
Or the unbeliever may assume you have a well-thought-out faith that recognizes Jesus drank alcohol. Taking a severe puritanical position may actually be a hindrance to others. I find the only people who have a problem when they see me drinking alcohol are Christians.

I hear this.

In this matter, only you know if you are crossing a line God has drawn.

Archiveit
Sep 21st 2008, 01:25 PM
I should probably clarify this, since the thread has become somewhat fixated around one of my examples. Though I do go out drinking occasionally, I also realize that there is a different scriptural view between having a few drinks and actual drunkenness which interferes with one's judgements.

Jesus did drink, like Zombiecat said, but I can't imagine him staggering around trying to keep from puking on himself.

Sold Out
Sep 21st 2008, 04:07 PM
=.

For example, I go out to see movies, with friends (most of them Christian) sometimes with the harsh language, violence, and sex that is so hard to avoid in movies today, I occasionally go out drinking with friends (again, most of them Christian), I enjoy listening to a lot of rock music, and I find the cultures and religions of Asia to be fascinating and plan to visit many of the old temples when I go to Japan in a little over a year (though I do not actually believe in said religions). I do not exactly call these things sinful, but at the same time they are not exactly spiritual. Furthermore, at the end of the day they do not weaken my faith in Christ. When it comes to interacting with the world, I believe that is the most important criteria.

I could actually go a lot further, but I'd like to see some responses to what I have here first. Thanks for reading.

By admitting these things, you are pointing out where you are growing in your Christian walk. You wouldn't mention if you were not convicted. This is the prime example of the growth process of the Christian!

When we get saved, our DESTINY changes, but our CHARACTER takes a lifetime. We are headed to heaven for sure, but the character part is up to us. We either chose to yield to the Word of God and the voice of the Holy Spirit, or we don't. If we don't we will suffer the earthly consequences and at the judgment seat we will suffer shame for what we didn't do for God. The LOSS due to sin is earthly and eternal, but not in the sense that we will lose our sonship with God.

Ultimately, it's up to us.

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 04:39 PM
As ‘Puritanical” as it may seem, we ARE called to holiness.

I’ve had my times of back-sliding. I let my sense of liberty lead me astray.
Later, I was discussing faith with a friend and he asked me how I could believe as I do and yet do as I had been doing.

I had no answer.

RichardI agree with all these things. The difference is equating the following of man-made, Pharisaical edicts with being holy, and the lack of following said edicts with back-sliding.


...I also realize that there is a different scriptural view between having a few drinks and actual drunkenness which interferes with one's judgements.

Jesus did drink, like Zombiecat said, but I can't imagine him staggering around trying to keep from puking on himself.Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Nailhead :)

Ethnikos
Sep 21st 2008, 05:06 PM
2 Corinthians 7:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=50&passage=2%20Corinthians%207.1)Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
We are not just evil in our flesh, but we are evil in our spirit.
So by appealing to this idea that by removing ourselves from our carnality, we have something better, does not work because going to our spiritual nature, we still find sinfulness.
To make an actual point; to look to a part of yourself, like your part that is religious, and depend on that as being good, despite what your physical body is doing, is pure self delusion.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 05:56 PM
I agree with all these things. The difference is equating the following of man-made, Pharisaical edicts with being holy, and the lack of following said edicts with back-sliding.

Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Nailhead :)

Agree!
I was speaking of my own back-sliding.
Still, my actions were a stumbling block to my friend.

One might assume that the world understands liberty, but it does not even understand the gospel which gives liberty.

In my case - I let a sense of Liberty, lead me into sin.
I was only speaking of myself.

Richard

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 06:04 PM
Agree!
I was speaking of my own back-sliding.
Still, my actions were a stumbling block to my friend.

One might assume that the world understands liberty, but it does not even understand the gospel which gives liberty.

In my case - I let a sense of Liberty, lead me into sin.
I was only speaking of myself.

RichardI completely understand, and I've not been entirely immune from the problem over the years.

It sounds like this probably doesn't apply to your own situation of which you spoke, but being a stumbling block brings up an interesting point. We're not supposed to partake of things that are stumbling blocks to other believers. Since drinking alcohol has come up as an example, I'll stick to that one--if a believer sees me drinking a beer and it becomes a stumbling block for them, I'm supposed to not drink beer. What if their insistence that I follow man-made tenets in contrast to what's in Scripture is a stumbling block for me? Should they refrain from allowing my moderate alcohol consumption from being a stumbling block to them?

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 06:16 PM
I completely understand, and I've not been entirely immune from the problem over the years.

It sounds like this probably doesn't apply to your own situation of which you spoke, but being a stumbling block brings up an interesting point. We're not supposed to partake of things that are stumbling blocks to other believers. Since drinking alcohol has come up as an example, I'll stick to that one--if a believer sees me drinking a beer and it becomes a stumbling block for them, I'm supposed to not drink beer. What if their insistence that I follow man-made tenets in contrast to what's in Scripture is a stumbling block for me? Should they refrain from allowing my moderate alcohol consumption from being a stumbling block to them?

"Stumbling block"
My point.

These are issues we "work out" as time progresses - if we're aware of the situation. I just wanted to add that factor to consider.

As to conforming to the world - to please the world? No.

"Be not conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. (I forget the exact reference)

As for their "needing to refrain" - they are unsaved and therefore rebellious in nature. Don't expect anything else.

Richard :)

Ethnikos
Sep 21st 2008, 06:18 PM
Paul is saying that in his mind, he intends to do good but his body keeps doing evil. Unless his mind is outside his body, then it is evil, too. If his mind was good, it would get it together and force his body to obey his mental commands. It is not a disconnect in his spinal cord that is the problem, it is an inner conflict, inside his mind.

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 06:58 PM
"Stumbling block"
My point.

These are issues we "work out" as time progresses - if we're aware of the situation. I just wanted to add that factor to consider.

As to conforming to the world - to please the world? No.

"Be not conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. (I forget the exact reference)

As for their "needing to refrain" - they are unsaved and therefore rebellious in nature. Don't expect anything else.

Richard :)All good points, but based on your response, I think you may have misread my post (either that or I'm misreading yours :) ). The context was being a stumbling block, "needing to refrain", etc. because of believers, not unbelievers.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 07:11 PM
All good points, but based on your response, I think you may have misread my post (either that or I'm misreading yours :) ). The context was being a stumbling block, "needing to refrain", etc. because of believers, not unbelievers.

I see. OK

No. Don't do or say or think or believe anything to please the church.
You don't answer to the church - they have no sayso about your salvation or anything else.

The only One we answer to is God, Himself.
Follow Him and He alone.

I'm not advocating rebellion to the body, but it is the Head that matters.
And Jesus is the head.

Richard

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 07:13 PM
I see. OK

No. don't do or say or think or believe anything to please the church.
You don't answer to the church - they have no sayso about your salvation or anything else.

The only One we should consider and answer to is God, Himself.
Follow Him and He alone.

I'm not advocating rebellion to the body, but it is the Head that matters. And Jesus is the head.

RichardWell said.




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