PDA

View Full Version : Our Reasonable service.



Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 06:51 AM
According to the following scriptures, are we doing our reasonable service to God? Does what we do identify us as belonging to Christ and therefore to God?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Thank You.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 03:07 PM
Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 20th 2008, 03:52 PM
What's your hypothesis?

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 05:53 PM
What's your hypothesis?

How do we know when we are doing a reasonable service to God?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 20th 2008, 05:56 PM
How do we know when we are doing a reasonable service to God?


Thats not a hypothesis, thats a question. What's your hypothesis?

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 06:05 PM
Thats not a hypothesis, thats a question. What's your hypothesis?

I am not asking for the sake of an argument. Can we know if we are doing our reasonable service to God?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

How do we know if we truly belong to God?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Sep 20th 2008, 08:40 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

My comment isn't so much to answer your question, but to give clarity to the scripture you are using as a premise. If it helps the discussion we might remember that the word rendered "service" speaks about the temple service, which Paul uses metaphorically to talk about our sensible response to God's mercy. What kind of "sacrifice" is appropriate in view of God's mercy? How about giving your body as a living "sacrifice," which is a rational response to mercy.

Firstfruits
Sep 21st 2008, 10:02 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

My comment isn't so much to answer your question, but to give clarity to the scripture you are using as a premise. If it helps the discussion we might remember that the word rendered "service" speaks about the temple service, which Paul uses metaphorically to talk about our sensible response to God's mercy. What kind of "sacrifice" is appropriate in view of God's mercy? How about giving your body as a living "sacrifice," which is a rational response to mercy.

Yes, but what does it mean to give your body as a living sacrifice?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 21st 2008, 11:00 AM
Romans 12:1 "I BESEECH ye therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Maybe this will help - the "reasonable service" of Rom. 12:1 is worship, that is performed with the heart, mind, and soul of intelligent beings, and is in contrast to the worsip of idols of Romans 1:25.

Men were to bring themselves to God instead of offering sacrifices as they did under the law. The former sacrifices belonged wholly to God, and mankind was now to belong wholly to God.

"present your bodies a living sacrifice" -

Following is a list of commands about the body:

1. Yield it to God (Rom 11:1; 6:13-20).
2. Make it a living sacrifice (Rom. 12:1)
3. Make it holy (Rom. 11:1; 1 Cor. 3:17)
4. Make it accepted of God (Rom. 12:1)
5. Make it full of light (Mt. 6:22)
6. Reckon it dead to sin (Rom. 6:1)
7. Refuse it alive to God (Rom. 6:1)
8. Refuse its slavery to sin (Rom. 6:12)
9. Mortify its deeds (Rom. 8:13)
10. Refuse to defile it (1 Cor. 3:17)
11. Make it a fit temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:13-20)
12. Keep it free from fornication and only for the Lord (1 Cor. 6:13-20)
13. Glorify God in it (1 Cor. 6:20)
14. Control it (1 Cor. 9:27)
15. Put off its sins (Col. 2:11)

Taking it a step further:

Take a look at Verse 2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

Two commands are given. If we obey these two commands, we will be in obedience to the perfect will of God. Obeying God's will is our "reasonable service."

God Bless.

Firstfruits
Sep 21st 2008, 11:18 AM
Romans 12:1 "I BESEECH ye therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Maybe this will help - the "reasonable service" of Rom. 12:1 is worship, that is performed with the heart, mind, and soul of intelligent beings, and is in contrast to the worsip of idols of Romans 1:25.

Men were to bring themselves to God instead of offering sacrifices as they did under the law. The former sacrifices belonged wholly to God, and mankind was now to belong wholly to God.

"present your bodies a living sacrifice" -

Following is a list of commands about the body:

1. Yield it to God (Rom 11:1; 6:13-20).
2. Make it a living sacrifice (Rom. 12:1)
3. Make it holy (Rom. 11:1; 1 Cor. 3:17)
4. Make it accepted of God (Rom. 12:1)
5. Make it full of light (Mt. 6:22)
6. Reckon it dead to sin (Rom. 6:1)
7. Refuse it alive to God (Rom. 6:1)
8. Refuse its slavery to sin (Rom. 6:12)
9. Mortify its deeds (Rom. 8:13)
10. Refuse to defile it (1 Cor. 3:17)
11. Make it a fit temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:13-20)
12. Keep it free from fornication and only for the Lord (1 Cor. 6:13-20)
13. Glorify God in it (1 Cor. 6:20)
14. Control it (1 Cor. 9:27)
15. Put off its sins (Col. 2:11)

Taking it a step further:

Take a look at Verse 2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

Two commands are given. If we obey these two commands, we will be in obedience to the perfect will of God. Obeying God's will is our "reasonable service."

God Bless.

Thank you Graceforme,

That has been most helpful, you did not however give the two commandments that we will be in the perfect will of God.

God bless you

Firstfruits

the rookie
Sep 21st 2008, 02:05 PM
I find that when folks examine Romans 12:1 they tend to overlook the "Therefore..."

In presenting our bodies as a "living sacrifice" related to our "reasonable service", Paul is connecting a charge to the Roman believers with his earlier presentation in Rom. 9-11.

Of course, folks tend to go right from Rom. 8 straight to Rom. 12 making the "Therefore..." fit what most interpret as Paul's presentation of salvation / justification - thus missing how and why we are to present our bodies as set apart for the Lord's purposes related to His mercy that he just talked about and defined in 11:28-36.

The "mercies of God" (see Isa. 55:3) as Paul defines it involves the mercies of God towards us obtained through the disobedience of Israel; yet the disobedient people will obtain mercy through "the mercy shown you" - for God has committed them all to disobedience "that he might have mercy on all". Paul is stunned by the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God in the manner in which the Lord orchestrates His incredible (and incredibly complex) plan to bring Israel into her irrevocable gifts and calling that He is still committed to - and the mercy shown to us is part of the process of bringing mercy to the disobedient!

"Therefore..."

Firstfruits
Sep 21st 2008, 02:42 PM
I find that when folks examine Romans 12:1 they tend to overlook the "Therefore..."

In presenting our bodies as a "living sacrifice" related to our "reasonable service", Paul is connecting a charge to the Roman believers with his earlier presentation in Rom. 9-11.

Of course, folks tend to go right from Rom. 8 straight to Rom. 12 making the "Therefore..." fit what most interpret as Paul's presentation of salvation / justification - thus missing how and why we are to present our bodies as set apart for the Lord's purposes related to His mercy that he just talked about and defined in 11:28-36.

The "mercies of God" (see Isa. 55:3) as Paul defines it involves the mercies of God towards us obtained through the disobedience of Israel; yet the disobedient people will obtain mercy through "the mercy shown you" - for God has committed them all to disobedience "that he might have mercy on all". Paul is stunned by the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God in the manner in which the Lord orchestrates His incredible (and incredibly complex) plan to bring Israel into her irrevocable gifts and calling that He is still committed to - and the mercy shown to us is part of the process of bringing mercy to the disobedient!

"Therefore..."

Thank you The Rookie,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Sep 21st 2008, 05:14 PM
I find that when folks examine Romans 12:1 they tend to overlook the "Therefore..."

In presenting our bodies as a "living sacrifice" related to our "reasonable service", Paul is connecting a charge to the Roman believers with his earlier presentation in Rom. 9-11.

Of course, folks tend to go right from Rom. 8 straight to Rom. 12 making the "Therefore..." fit what most interpret as Paul's presentation of salvation / justification - thus missing how and why we are to present our bodies as set apart for the Lord's purposes related to His mercy that he just talked about and defined in 11:28-36.

The "mercies of God" (see Isa. 55:3) as Paul defines it involves the mercies of God towards us obtained through the disobedience of Israel; yet the disobedient people will obtain mercy through "the mercy shown you" - for God has committed them all to disobedience "that he might have mercy on all". Paul is stunned by the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God in the manner in which the Lord orchestrates His incredible (and incredibly complex) plan to bring Israel into her irrevocable gifts and calling that He is still committed to - and the mercy shown to us is part of the process of bringing mercy to the disobedient!

"Therefore..."

Thanks Rookie. I like how your explanation maintains Paul's flow of thought. And so, to answer your question, Firstfruit, to find out what Paul means by a living sacrifice, I would continue to read chapter 12, and perhaps 13 and 14.

Firstfruits
Sep 21st 2008, 05:42 PM
Thanks Rookie. I like how your explanation maintains Paul's flow of thought. And so, to answer your question, Firstfruit, to find out what Paul means by a living sacrifice, I would continue to read chapter 12, and perhaps 13 and 14.

Thank you BroRoj,

Will do.

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 21st 2008, 10:41 PM
Thank you Graceforme,

That has been most helpful, you did not however give the two commandments that we will be in the perfect will of God.

God bless you

Firstfruits

The two commandments were included in the passage. Take another look.

Romans 12:1 tells us this: "..... that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

How do we accomplish this?

1. "Be not conformed to this world"

AND

2. "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"


"that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

Many blessings to you.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:06 AM
The two commandments were included in the passage. Take another look.

Romans 12:1 tells us this: "..... that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

How do we accomplish this?

1. "Be not conformed to this world"

AND

2. "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"


"that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

Many blessings to you.

So those commands along with the list of commands for the body you have given will enable us to be in the perfect will of God, is that right?

Firstfruits

Realist1981
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:19 AM
Yes, but what does it mean to give your body as a living sacrifice?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Firstfruits


From my understanding presenting your body as a living sacrifice means to turn your life over to God. Being "Born again", meaning your old self dies and you are born again "spiritually) the new creature lives for Christ free from sin with the help of the Holy Spirit that lives in you and guides you.

I hope this helps.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:23 AM
From my understanding presenting your body as a living sacrifice means to turn your life over to God. Being "Born again", meaning your old self dies and you are born again "spiritually) the new creature lives for Christ free from sin with the help of the Holy Spirit that lives in you and guides you.

I hope this helps.

Thank you Realist1981,

Yes it has been helpful

God bless you.

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:31 AM
So those commands along with the list of commands for the body you have given will enable us to be in the perfect will of God, is that right?

Firstfruits

I was trying to show what is the "reasonable service" that is referred to in verse 1.

"Perfect" in verse 2 - I think is from the Greek "teleios" which means "that which has reached its end; nothing more to complete it.

It's really very simple - if we live separate from the ways of the world,and allow the Holy Spirit to transform our minds, then, yes, we will be in God's will.

Romans 12 - 15:12 goes on to give practical application of the gospel, as can be found throughout the Pauline epistles.

God Bless.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:19 AM
I was trying to show what is the "reasonable service" that is referred to in verse 1.

"Perfect" in verse 2 - I think is from the Greek "teleios" which means "that which has reached its end; nothing more to complete it.

It's really very simple - if we live separate from the ways of the world,and allow the Holy Spirit to transform our minds, then, yes, we will be in God's will.

Romans 12 - 15:12 goes on to give practical application of the gospel, as can be found throughout the Pauline epistles.

God Bless.

Thanks Graceforme,

Would you also apply the following concerning being complete in Christ?

Eph 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Thanks

Firstfruits

the rookie
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:38 PM
The two commandments were included in the passage. Take another look.

Romans 12:1 tells us this: "..... that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

How do we accomplish this?

1. "Be not conformed to this world"

AND

2. "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"


"that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

Many blessings to you.

Of course, I believe that, thematically, even these two commands are not generic directives from Paul related to living the typical good Christian life. I believe that Paul is still flowing with his "Therefore..." related to the mercies of God spoken of towards "those who are in disobedience" whom God desires to "obtain mercy".

Thus his appeal to not be conformed to this world has a specific application related to "those who are in disobedience", as does the appeal to be "transformed by the renewing of the mind". We need renewed minds, in Paul's opinion, to fully grasp what stunned him about God and His mercy in 11:33-36. Once we grasp what Paul had been speaking about we will be able to "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" again, in a specific manner related to the earlier passages. Not, to be redundant, in the generic manner that many apply this passage.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:45 PM
Of course, I believe that, thematically, even these two commands are not generic directives from Paul related to living the typical good Christian life. I believe that Paul is still flowing with his "Therefore..." related to the mercies of God spoken of towards "those who are in disobedience" whom God desires to "obtain mercy".

Thus his appeal to not be conformed to this world has a specific application related to "those who are in disobedience", as does the appeal to be "transformed by the renewing of the mind". We need renewed minds, in Paul's opinion, to fully grasp what stunned him about God and His mercy in 11:33-36. Once we grasp what Paul had been speaking about we will be able to "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" again, in a specific manner related to the earlier passages. Not, to be redundant, in the generic manner that many apply this passage.

Does the commandment to love one another apply, as it fulfills the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

the rookie
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:07 PM
Does the commandment to love one another apply, as it fulfills the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Apples to oranges, IMO. The commandment to love one another is a transcendent command that always applies, in any conversation. In this case, yes, there is a command to love (as Paul goes on to express in 12:9-21 and 13:8-10) but it is knit, again, to a specific application related to a specific issue that Paul is addressing within the Roman church of that time that has implications for every believer.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:27 PM
Apples to oranges, IMO. The commandment to love one another is a transcendent command that always applies, in any conversation. In this case, yes, there is a command to love (as Paul goes on to express in 12:9-21 and 13:8-10) but it is knit, again, to a specific application related to a specific issue that Paul is addressing within the Roman church of that time that has implications for every believer.

Thanks The Rookie,

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:01 PM
Thanks Graceforme,

Would you also apply the following concerning being complete in Christ?

Eph 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Thanks

Firstfruits

Absolutely. We are complete in Christ. Nothing can be done that will add to what Christ has done for us, or add to our identity in Him.

Many blessings to you.

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:31 PM
Absolutely. We are complete in Christ. Nothing can be done that will add to what Christ has done for us, or add to our identity in Him.

Many blessings to you.

Thank you Graceforme,

Would the same be true concerning the following scripture?

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Is love therefore the key?

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 23rd 2008, 12:53 AM
Thank you Graceforme,

Would the same be true concerning the following scripture?

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Is love therefore the key?

Firstfruits

I think love is the key to Christian living. The love OF God and FOR God is the key that binds us all together. There are so many differences in human personalities, that this type of "love" would probably not be possible outside of God's love.

BTW, the comments of "the rookie" were very interesting and showed tremendous spiritual insight and maturity.

God Bless.

Firstfruits
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:41 AM
I think love is the key to Christian living. The love OF God and FOR God is the key that binds us all together. There are so many differences in human personalities, that this type of "love" would probably not be possible outside of God's love.

BTW, the comments of "the rookie" were very interesting and showed tremendous spiritual insight and maturity.

God Bless.

Thanks Graceforme,

I agree, yet it seems that love is not high on the list for us today as it should be, according to the scripture.

Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:14 AM
Thanks Graceforme,

I agree, yet it seems that love is not high on the list for us today as it should be, according to the scripture.

Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

You're right of course. Today's society has become so focused on "self" and what "self" wants, that love for others sometimes fades into the background. That's why it is so important for us to be a good witness of the love of Christ to those around us.

Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day.

Firstfruits
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:29 AM
You're right of course. Today's society has become so focused on "self" and what "self" wants, that love for others sometimes fades into the background. That's why it is so important for us to be a good witness of the love of Christ to those around us.

Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day.

Thank you so much graceforme,

Would it be fair to say that because we are not focused on love as we should, that it is as though we we have lost our identities as being Christs?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:33 AM
Of course, I believe that, thematically, even these two commands are not generic directives from Paul related to living the typical good Christian life. I believe that Paul is still flowing with his "Therefore..." related to the mercies of God spoken of towards "those who are in disobedience" whom God desires to "obtain mercy".

Thus his appeal to not be conformed to this world has a specific application related to "those who are in disobedience", as does the appeal to be "transformed by the renewing of the mind". We need renewed minds, in Paul's opinion, to fully grasp what stunned him about God and His mercy in 11:33-36. Once we grasp what Paul had been speaking about we will be able to "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" again, in a specific manner related to the earlier passages. Not, to be redundant, in the generic manner that many apply this passage.

I agree with both your earlier statement and with this statement.

graceforme
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:50 AM
Thank you so much graceforme,

Would it be fair to say that because we are not focused on love as we should, that it is as though we we have lost our identities as being Christs?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

No, I don't think we have LOST our identity, we just fail to live up to our identity at times. Our actions don't change who we are in Christ, but we can fail to ACT like who we are.

Have a blessed day.

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:56 AM
Thank you so much graceforme,

Would it be fair to say that because we are not focused on love as we should, that it is as though we we have lost our identities as being Christs?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Yes, I think that to a large extent, it would be fair to say that. But:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Humbleness of mind is built on love for one another - it does not mean that we should not seek and ask God for understanding of His Word, and it does not mean that we should agree with one another all the time.

But yes, we all agree that love is the most important bond we are to remain in ("Now abide faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love").

If we love Jesus, we will love His people - even if we disagree with their understanding of certain things.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Jesus did not have to agree with His disciples all the time in order to love them - at times He even rebuked them.

Now we cannot go around willy-nilly rebuking one another, "For One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers" (Mat.23: 8)

"And whoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he who shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Mat.23: 12).

"But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Mat.23: 11).

Jesus tells us right there how to love one another. Paul tells us more:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

(Boy, have I slipped up sometimes. Please forgive me, guys).

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:58 AM
No, I don't think we have LOST our identity, we just fail to live up to our identity at times. Our actions don't change who we are in Christ, but we can fail to ACT like who we are.

Have a blessed day.

If as you say we can fail to act like who we are, how then will men know who we are?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 23rd 2008, 11:12 AM
If as you say we can fail to act like who we are, how then will men know who we are?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Firstfruits


There are times when our behavior does not properly reflect who we are. When we lose our temper, then how we are dealing with someone else might not reflect who we are in Christ. I myself have a tendency to be impatient. When I display that characteristic, I'm sure I'm not always the best witness for Christ. It's something I work on, and God gives me strength and direction when my impatience shows itself.

There's a wonderful book titled "Who I Am In Christ" by Neil Anderson. You could probably buy it at any Christian book store or order it from the "People to People" website.

I would highly recommend it to anyone.

I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go. Have a GREAT day!

God Bless.

Firstfruits
Sep 23rd 2008, 11:25 AM
There are times when our behavior does not properly reflect who we are. When we lose our temper, then how we are dealing with someone else might not reflect who we are in Christ. I myself have a tendency to be impatient. When I display that characteristic, I'm sure I'm not always the best witness for Christ. It's something I work on, and God gives me strength and direction when my impatience shows itself.

There's a wonderful book titled "Who I Am In Christ" by Neil Anderson. You could probably buy it at any Christian book store or order it from the "People to People" website.

I would highly recommend it to anyone.

I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go. Have a GREAT day!

God Bless.

Thank you,

Have wonderful God filled day.

God bless you

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:19 PM
Yes, I think that to a large extent, it would be fair to say that. But:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Humbleness of mind is built on love for one another - it does not mean that we should not seek and ask God for understanding of His Word, and it does not mean that we should agree with one another all the time.

But yes, we all agree that love is the most important bond we are to remain in ("Now abide faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love").

If we love Jesus, we will love His people - even if we disagree with their understanding of certain things.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Jesus did not have to agree with His disciples all the time in order to love them - at times He even rebuked them.

Now we cannot go around willy-nilly rebuking one another, "For One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers" (Mat.23: 8)

"And whoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he who shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Mat.23: 12).

"But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Mat.23: 11).

Jesus tells us right there how to love one another. Paul tells us more:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

(Boy, have I slipped up sometimes. Please forgive me, guys).

ananias


Anyone who says they have NEVER slipped up probably has memory loss. We all slip up from time to time. That doesn't mean we aren't saved - if it did, we'd have no hope at all. I'm just thankful that our Creator understands our "human-ness" and extends His grace and mercy our way.

Many blessings to you!

Firstfruits
Sep 24th 2008, 06:37 AM
Yes, I think that to a large extent, it would be fair to say that. But:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Humbleness of mind is built on love for one another - it does not mean that we should not seek and ask God for understanding of His Word, and it does not mean that we should agree with one another all the time.

But yes, we all agree that love is the most important bond we are to remain in ("Now abide faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love").

If we love Jesus, we will love His people - even if we disagree with their understanding of certain things.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Jesus did not have to agree with His disciples all the time in order to love them - at times He even rebuked them.

Now we cannot go around willy-nilly rebuking one another, "For One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers" (Mat.23: 8)

"And whoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he who shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Mat.23: 12).

"But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Mat.23: 11).

Jesus tells us right there how to love one another. Paul tells us more:

Col 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

(Boy, have I slipped up sometimes. Please forgive me, guys).

ananias

Thanks Ananias,

We should then remember what clothes we are wearing, so if we have put on Christ we should not also have the old mans clothes, would that be right?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 24th 2008, 07:00 PM
Anyone who says they have NEVER slipped up probably has memory loss. We all slip up from time to time. That doesn't mean we aren't saved - if it did, we'd have no hope at all. I'm just thankful that our Creator understands our "human-ness" and extends His grace and mercy our way.

Many blessings to you!

Thanks, graceforme!

ananias
Sep 24th 2008, 07:06 PM
Thanks Ananias,

We should then remember what clothes we are wearing, so if we have put on Christ we should not also have the old mans clothes, would that be right?

Firstfruits

Yes, we should remember what clothes we are wearing.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 25th 2008, 07:40 AM
Yes, we should remember what clothes we are wearing.

ananias

Thank you Ananias,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 25th 2008, 02:13 PM
Anyone who says they have NEVER slipped up probably has memory loss. We all slip up from time to time. That doesn't mean we aren't saved - if it did, we'd have no hope at all. I'm just thankful that our Creator understands our "human-ness" and extends His grace and mercy our way.

Many blessings to you!


This is very true. I cannot believe anyone would make this claim. I myself slipped up once, years ago.

Firstfruits
Sep 25th 2008, 02:21 PM
This is very true. I cannot believe anyone would make this claim. I myself slipped up once, years ago.

I would say that if we did not sin then what would be the point of the following?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Thanks

Firstfruits

graceforme
Sep 25th 2008, 05:56 PM
I would say that if we did not sin then what would be the point of the following?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Thanks

Firstfruits


Thank God that He provided this way for us to be forgiven - otherwise we'd had no hope, would we?

God is good ..... all the time.
All the time ..... God is good!

Firstfruits
Sep 25th 2008, 06:45 PM
Thank God that He provided this way for us to be forgiven - otherwise we'd had no hope, would we?

God is good ..... all the time.
All the time ..... God is good!

And we all said "Amen"

God bless you.

Firstfruits