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seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 12:07 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 12:31 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

It would seem obvious. Reject the love of God, his sacrifice of His Son, and you shall be rejected, without hope.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "---; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

It is about free will. Once you have made your choice, thats your choice.

Think about this. When a criminal gets caught, should he be allowed to say I am sorry, let me go, and we let him go. The only reason he is sorry is that he got caught. If a criminal isn't caught, but is remorseful for his deeds, then there would be a reason for leniency.

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 12:38 PM
It would seem obvious. Reject the love of God, his sacrifice of His Son, and you shall be rejected, without hope.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "---; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

It is about free will. Once you have made your choice, thats your choice.

Think about this. When a criminal gets caught, should he be allowed to say I am sorry, let me go, and we let him go. The only reason he is sorry is that he got caught. If a criminal isn't caught, but is remorseful for his deeds, then there would be a reason for leniency.



I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 01:26 PM
I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?

There is no forgiveness for the rejection of Christ. It is a separating of the wheat from the tares. It makes for clarity. No shades of gray. All black and white.

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 01:44 PM
There is no forgiveness for the rejection of Christ. It is a separating of the wheat from the tares. It makes for clarity. No shades of gray. All black and white.

Well when you think about it though.. we all rejected Christ up until we were saved...

Lets say a person doesn't get saved until age 50..they spend 50 years rejecting Christ yet they aren't cast aside or given a strong delusion in all that time. Why? Because the bible says God is long suffering...meaning He will wait on people...for years. So why are these people forgiven for 50 years of rejecting Jesus then they are finally saved but apparently others aren't?

God bless

VerticalReality
Sep 19th 2008, 01:45 PM
For the same reason God did this . . .



Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible manóand birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

drew
Sep 19th 2008, 01:52 PM
I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?
This is, of course, a very interesting question. While I will not offer any thoughts on an answer to this question, I will claim that God did a similar kind of thing with Israel as a whole. I claim that Paul argues (in Romans mostly, but also in Galatians) that God gives the Torah to Israel with the strange goal of making Israel more sinful than she would otherwise be.

Consider these passages:

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Needless to say, I think Paul later tells us why God did this. But I do think it is interesting, and relevant to your issue, that God appears to give the Torah to Israel to make her more sinful than she would otherwise have been.

faith&charity
Sep 19th 2008, 02:20 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

Are you asking why would God seem so vile as to not help those who are lost? Why He would"give up" on those who have rejected Him instead of being loving and kind? just checking. ;)

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 02:22 PM
Well when you think about it though.. we all rejected Christ up until we were saved...

Lets say a person doesn't get saved until age 50..they spend 50 years rejecting Christ yet they aren't cast aside or given a strong delusion in all that time. Why? Because the bible says God is long suffering...meaning He will wait on people...for years. So why are these people forgiven for 50 years of rejecting Jesus then they are finally saved but apparently others aren't?

God bless

You cannot reject who you do not know. It is one thing to take 50 years to find Christ, and another to find him after 50 years and reject him.

How about those on earth the same time as Christ, and met Him, and rejected him. Did they get a second chance? I don't believe so.

2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

You can know Christ without accepting him. This is where there is confusion on salvation. Just like the seed that is planted on different ground. Unless the seed bears fruit it is not in Christ.

If after knowing Christ you reject Him, there is no hope. If you know Him and accept him, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cannot be lost.

To know Christ does not mean to be saved, it is merely knowledge of who He is.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 02:33 PM
You cannot reject who you do not know. It is one thing to take 50 years to find Christ, and another to find him after 50 years and reject him.

How about those on earth the same time as Christ, and met Him, and rejected him. Did they get a second chance? I don't believe so.

2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

You can know Christ without accepting him. This is where there is confusion on salvation. Just like the seed that is planted on different ground. Unless the seed bears fruit it is not in Christ.

If after knowing Christ you reject Him, there is no hope. If you know Him and accept him, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cannot be lost.

To know Christ does not mean to be saved, it is merely knowledge of who He is.

In Jesus Christ, terrell


Are you talking about apostate Christians here?

God bless

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 02:41 PM
Never mind tgallison...sometimes I am slow in the head...:rolleyes:

I suppose it would have helped in I had read that verse in content! Yes its about apostate Christians...those that HAD accepted Christ at one time..that were Christians at one time but later renounced their faith.

seamus414 read that verse in content then it will make more sense to you.

2 Thessalonians 2

The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God bless

graceforme
Sep 19th 2008, 02:42 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?


'In what sense does God send such things? This question is answered in Romans1:21-32. It is not God's will that any man perish, but that all come to repentance (John 3:16-20; 2 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17). If men persist in rebellion, then God gives them up and over to their own ways which will damn their souls. It is something that He is forced to do because He cannot save men who persist in damning their own souls. God has made the laws of sowing and reaping and this is the sense in which God has anything to do with such destinies.'

from notes on 2 Thess. 2:11 by Rev. J. Finis Dake

Maybe this will help add some insight.
God Bless.

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 03:03 PM
'In what sense does God send such things? This question is answered in Romans1:21-32. It is not God's will that any man perish, but that all come to repentance (John 3:16-20; 2 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17). If men persist in rebellion, then God gives them up and over to their own ways which will damn their souls. It is something that He is forced to do because He cannot save men who persist in damning their own souls. God has made the laws of sowing and reaping and this is the sense in which God has anything to do with such destinies.'

from notes on 2 Thess. 2:11 by Rev. J. Finis Dake

Maybe this will help add some insight.
God Bless.

Do you see a distinction between God giving someone up to their own ways and God deluding someone so that he cannot see a different way?

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 03:04 PM
Are you asking why would God seem so vile as to not help those who are lost? Why He would"give up" on those who have rejected Him instead of being loving and kind? just checking. ;)

It is not so much the "giving up" I am struggling with, it is the giving someone delusions with which I have having trouble.

Mograce2U
Sep 19th 2008, 03:07 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?Yet the preceding verses gives the reason. That when presented with the truth in Christ, these men preferred to believe the lie of Satan rather than the truth God sent to them so they could be saved. And according to the prophecies given about those days, Israel was about to be judged for crucifying the Lord Jesus.

Stephen's testimony in Acts 7 gives us further insight regarding the reason of why Israel was to be judged. He was accused of blasphemy for saying that the temple was going to be destroyed by Jesus and the rites given to them by Moses changed. But Stephen wasn't blasphemying, he was exegeting the prophecy given to Daniel in 9:26-27.

This was the same open book that John was given to eat in Revelation because the time for that prophecy had come. It is also the one Jesus refers to when He spoke of the coming destruction of Jerusalem as being in accordance with what Daniel wrote about the abomination that brings their desolation.

(2 Th 2:8 KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

To be consumed by the Spirit of the Lord's mouth is prophecy coming to bear. The translators took some liberty in adding "with" twice in this rather difficultly worded passage. But what is being destroyed is the brightness - the appearing of the one coming in the power of Satan to work this iniquity - bringing it to its fullness so it can be judged according to the prophecy given.

(2 Th 2:9 KJV) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Satan is the one working this iniquity under the guidance of the Lord which was to bring the cross to pass. But those men who were responsible for it would be judged nonetheless. It is not unlike how Pharoah's heart was hardened so that the people could be delivered by the mighty signs and wonders which gave witness to the glory of the Lord.

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 03:13 PM
Maybe this will help:

Adam Clark's bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2th&chapter=002)
Verse 11. God shall send them strong delusion
For this very cause, that they would not receive the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, therefore God permits strong delusion to occupy their minds; so that they believe a lie rather than the truth, prefer false apostles and their erroneous doctrines to the pure truths of the Gospel, brought to them by the well-accredited messengers of God; being ever ready to receive any false Messiah, while they systematically and virulently reject the true one.
******************************
Its what I said before...God gives them what they want. They want to believe in something not true so He makes sure they get what they want. Its like the story of Moses and the Pharaoh...the pharaoh hardened his heart against Moses and God first..and kept it hardened and refused to soften his heart so finally God made sure it stayed hardened. Its a point of no return in these situations. You rail against God long enough and eventually He gives you want you want. Being all knowing and knowing the future...He knows these types of people will never repent...never come back to Him...so its not like He knows they would come back to Him and He stops that from happening. Of course not.

God bless

grptinHisHand
Sep 19th 2008, 03:26 PM
to the OP - You started with:
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

That reason is they had been already given the love of the truth and rejected it. I think you have been given great answers.

Like the first answer you got:
in post 2:
(tgallison)
2 Thessalonians 2:10 "---; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."


"for this reason" is like "therefore" It means you back up and read the verses before to see what it is there for.

Below I have quoted from Tgallison's post above. (emphasis mine)


If after knowing Christ you reject Him, there is no hope. If you know Him and accept him, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cannot be lost.

To know Christ does not mean to be saved, it is merely knowledge of who He is.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

I agree with what I understand you are saying, terrell,

but

it actually depends on what a person means when they say they Know Christ. If they only mean they know of Him or about Him. For many people, the term Knowing Christ means having accepted Him and having a relationship with Him.
I agree that when we KNOW HIM in relationship and are saved we are sealed by the Spirit and no man can pluck us out of His Hand. The difference being whether we have the relationship.

I am thankful that I do.

Thanks, terrell, for giving clarification to the verse in question.

Thanks, seamus414, for helping us look at what is meant.
I believe this can help many people who wonder the same thing you did here.
g :hug:

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 03:43 PM
to the OP - You started with:

That reason is they had been already given the love of the truth and rejected it. I think you have been given great answers.

Like the first answer you got:
in post 2:
(tgallison)

"for this reason" is like "therefore" It means you back up and read the verses before to see what it is there for.

Below I have quoted from Tgallison's post above. (emphasis mine)



I agree with what I understand you are saying, terrell,

but

it actually depends on what a person means when they say they Know Christ. If they only mean they know of Him or about Him. For many people, the term Knowing Christ means having accepted Him and having a relationship with Him.
I agree that when we KNOW HIM in relationship and are saved we are sealed by the Spirit and no man can pluck us out of His Hand. The difference being whether we have the relationship.

I am thankful that I do.

Thanks, terrell, for giving clarification to the verse in question.

Thanks, seamus414, for helping us look at what is meant.
I believe this can help many people who wonder the same thing you did here.
g :hug:


I suppose I am hung up on the word "sends" in verse 11. Does anyone have any alternate translations for verse 11 or an insight into the Greek?

(P.S.: I do not believe in "once saved always saved" but that is (and has been) a topic for another thread - but I do not think this changes anything relative to my understanding of this verse).

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 03:51 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

Greetings Seamus,

This is speaking to those who are of their father, the devil. Damnation awaits Satan's followers, but salvation is in store for God's children. This thought is confirmed in context.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Whether we understand or not, God has chosen only some to salvation, and the rest are left in blindness and unbelief.

"we are obliged to give thanks to God always for you" 2Th 1:3
"brothers beloved by the Lord" 1Th 1:4
"because God chose you" 1Th 1:4
For "salvation" 1Th 5:8,9
For "sanctification" 1Th 4:3,7
For "belief" 2Th 1:3,4,11: 1Th 1:3
For "truth" 2Th 2:10,12
For "calling" 1Th 1:5; 2:12; 4:7; 5:24
"with a view to obtaining" 1Th 5:9
"glory" 1Th 2:12
For "our Lord Jesus Christ" 1Th 1:1

Commentary by Hendriksen & Kistemaker
"We - Paul, Silas, and Timothy - cannot do otherwise than ceaselessly thank God for you, brothers in the faith (who are the objects of God's special love), because in his sovereign, immutable election God from the beginning chose you to salvation - which is negatively, rescue from the guilt, pollution, and punishment of sin; positively, the entrance into the inheritance reserved for God's children; a salvation which becomes your possession through the work of the Holy Spirit, that is, through sanctification - a process of causing you to become increasingly detached from the world and attached to Christ until his image is completely formed in you - and through your active, vital consent to the body of redemptive truth revealed in Christ; to which final and complete salvation God also called you, having effectively applied to your hearts the gospel which we preached to you and which we urged you to accept in order that you might one day share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Many Blessings,
RW

grptinHisHand
Sep 19th 2008, 03:52 PM
I suppose I am hung up on the word "sends" in verse 11. Does anyone have any alternate translations for verse 11 or an insight into the Greek?

(P.S.: I do not believe in "once saved always saved" but that is (and has been) a topic for another thread - but I do not think this changes anything relative to my understanding of this verse).

Point well taken. I didn't mean to start the OSAS story again. :o It has been beaten to death in more than one thread on this site.

I can't help with the Greek, but my understanding is that the verse you are questioning is about folks who have been given opportunity after opportunity and God's sees that they have completely rejected Him. Perhaps they had said, "leave me alone, don't bother me with Your offer of Your love again' ? Hmmmm. just a thought
g

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 03:58 PM
Are you talking about apostate Christians here?

God bless

To call yourself a Christian does not put you in Christ, but to be sealed by the Spirit does.

The meanings of words of the utmost importance. If you mean by apostate Christian, one who is in Christ and then falls away, then I do not believe this is possible. If you mean simply one who follows Christ, counts the cost, and leaves Christ, then my answer would be yes.

moonglow
Sep 19th 2008, 04:00 PM
I suppose I am hung up on the word "sends" in verse 11. Does anyone have any alternate translations for verse 11 or an insight into the Greek?

(P.S.: I do not believe in "once saved always saved" but that is (and has been) a topic for another thread - but I do not think this changes anything relative to my understanding of this verse).

'sends' :

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=649
Strong's Number: 649 a)poste—llw
Original Word Word Origin
a)poste—llw from (575) and (4724)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apostello ap-os-tel'-lo
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 1:398,67
Definition


1. to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2. to send away, dismiss
1. to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2. to order one to depart, send off
3. to drive away
**************
These people already left God..sent themselves away by rejecting Him...He is basically saying farewell...

What a terrible place to be in with God!


God bless

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 04:05 PM
I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?

Because it was never God's purpose to save them. God will use this strong delusion to fulfill His will, and for His glory. It is only in understanding what we have been saved from, that we (believers) can truly understand what it means to be loved by God, and to give Him all glory and honor.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 04:14 PM
Never mind tgallison...sometimes I am slow in the head...:rolleyes:

I suppose it would have helped in I had read that verse in content! Yes its about apostate Christians...those that HAD accepted Christ at one time..that were Christians at one time but later renounced their faith.

seamus414 read that verse in content then it will make more sense to you.

2 Thessalonians 2

The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God bless

Greetings Moonglow,

How can this be speaking of those who were saved having fallen away, renounced their faith? Read vs 10 carefully it says, ..."because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." They were never Christians if they were never saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 04:23 PM
Maybe this will help:

Adam Clark's bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2th&chapter=002)
Verse 11. God shall send them strong delusion
For this very cause, that they would not receive the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, therefore God permits strong delusion to occupy their minds; so that they believe a lie rather than the truth, prefer false apostles and their erroneous doctrines to the pure truths of the Gospel, brought to them by the well-accredited messengers of God; being ever ready to receive any false Messiah, while they systematically and virulently reject the true one.
******************************
Its what I said before...God gives them what they want. They want to believe in something not true so He makes sure they get what they want. Its like the story of Moses and the Pharaoh...the pharaoh hardened his heart against Moses and God first..and kept it hardened and refused to soften his heart so finally God made sure it stayed hardened. Its a point of no return in these situations. You rail against God long enough and eventually He gives you want you want. Being all knowing and knowing the future...He knows these types of people will never repent...never come back to Him...so its not like He knows they would come back to Him and He stops that from happening. Of course not.

God bless

Hi Moonglow,

This is not quite right. It is true that Pharaoh does indeed harden his heart, but the truth is that God first hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people go.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 04:33 PM
Why did God harden the heart of Pharaoh so he would not let the people go? It is the same reason He sends strong delusion.

Ex 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Joh 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Ro 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Blessings,
RW

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 04:39 PM
Hi Moonglow,

This is not quite right. It is true that Pharaoh does indeed harden his heart, but the truth is that God first hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people go.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Blessings,
RW

What does, to harden one's heart mean? It does not mean to change it. Doesn't it mean, to keep it set on its course? Sort of like rejecting Christ, and then dying, no second chance.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 04:44 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?He only does it after having given them plenty of chances to believe. They are the ones who "received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". While God is very patient His patience does run out at times.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 04:46 PM
I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?Where does it say that God did not already "help them toward forgiveness"? I'm sure He did. But they rejected Him. They received not (did not accept and embrace) the love of the truth that they might be saved. This means that they could have been saved if they only had accepted the truth of the gospel.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 04:54 PM
Well when you think about it though.. we all rejected Christ up until we were saved...

Lets say a person doesn't get saved until age 50..they spend 50 years rejecting Christ yet they aren't cast aside or given a strong delusion in all that time. Why? Because the bible says God is long suffering...meaning He will wait on people...for years. So why are these people forgiven for 50 years of rejecting Jesus then they are finally saved but apparently others aren't?

God blessBecause of God's foreknowledge, He knows whether someone would ever believe or not. Sometimes, for His purposes, He will go ahead and give people over to their sin and to a reprobate mind, as it talks about in Romans 1.

In the case of Pharaoh it was for the purpose "that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.". In the case of the people talked about in 2 Thess 2:9-10, the context is the last days before Christ returns so it appears that the time will come, as in the days of Noah, when God says enough is enough and shuts the door to the ark, so to speak.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 05:06 PM
Because it was never God's purpose to save them.It was His purpose to offer salvation to them, but they rejected it. It was God's purpose to send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). God desires all to be saved and He gave His Son as a ransom for all (1 Tim 2:4-6).

But you're saying it wasn't His purpose to save them? I completely disagree. 2 Thess 2:9-10 clearly implies that had they accepted the truth they would have been saved. It is for the reason that they rejected the truth that God sends them strong delusion. Not because God wanted to do that in the first place. He does it as punishment for their rebellion.

Eric

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 05:07 PM
What does, to harden one's heart mean? It does not mean to change it. Doesn't it mean, to keep it set on its course? Sort of like rejecting Christ, and then dying, no second chance.

Greetings tgallison,

I agree! God does not change the heart of Pharaoah, truth is Pharaoah is in the same condition that all humanity is prior to salvation. Hence the problem for all mankind, we all reject Christ because our nature is bound to sin and evil. It's a mistake to think we are called sinners because we sin, when in reality we sin because we are all born into a sin nature that knows nothing other than sin and death. We are no different than Pharaoah. Unless the Lord gives us new birth in Him, we will continue to reject God and His Son, and yes we die in our sins with no second chance for receiving life.

Because we are all like Pharaoh, God must intervene in our lives, changing our hearts and giving us His nature or none could become saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Sep 19th 2008, 05:12 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

It's important to keep in mind that Paul is speaking of a phenomenon that will be apparent to those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord. He says that before the man of lawlessness can come, there must be an apostasy.

What would that look like?

Right now, all over the world, people are coming to Christ and others are falling away. And while the number of converts and apostates changes every day, we don't notice a large swing one way or the other. We don't see millions or billions of people coming to the Lord all at once. And neither do we see millions or billions of people all falling away at once. Life goes on pretty much as normal -- some believe, others fall away, and the rest just stay as they are.

Nonetheless, Paul says, there will come a day when it can be said without a doubt that the apostasy has come. When the apostasy comes, things will not look "normal". Anyone who might be looking for it will be able to say, "Hey, this is the time of the apostasy Paul mentioned." What we see now is like normal weather. Just as it rains sometimes, people fall away sometimes. And just as the sunshine comes out sometimes, people find Jesus sometimes. But sometimes, hurricanes come, and when they do we all know it because the difference between a day of rain and a hurricane is obvious and powerful.

Often times, when the hurricane comes, we say, "It is an act of God." The event is so huge, so devastating, so uncharacteristic of "normal" weather, that we attribute the event to something bigger than "normal". It must be from God himself.

When the apostasy comes, it will be huge, not like your normal apostasy. At that time, so many people will fall away to follow the man of lawlessness, we will look at it as an act of God. And it will be an act of God because this moment will be like the great flood in which God closed the door of the ark. When the apostasy comes, people will not love the truth, but this time, God will close the door, so to speak. A massive amount of people will fall away, and God will close the door on salvation.

Now, it isn't as if these people would have come to belief eventually, just like the people in Noah's time wouldn't have come to belief eventually. Noah preached to the people for a very long time and had they listened, they might have been on the ark. But as it was, only eight persons made it through alive. The flood was coming and eventually God had to shut the door.

And he will have to shut the door again, it would appear.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 05:14 PM
What does, to harden one's heart mean? It does not mean to change it. Doesn't it mean, to keep it set on its course? Sort of like rejecting Christ, and then dying, no second chance.That is how the concept is used in scripture. Looking at Romans 1, God gave those who did not retain Him in their knowledge, changed the truth of God into a lie and who worshiped the creature more than the Creator, over to the lusts of their own hearts (Rom 1:24). He does not just randomly decide that some should have their hearts hardened. He does it to those who have already hardened their own hearts. Those that have closed their own eyes, as illustrated in this verse:

Matt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Just before this Jesus said of those people: "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.". Why do they not see or hear so that they don't understand? Because they plugged their own ears and closed their own eyes. It isn't because God kept them from seeing or hearing from the beginning so that they'd never have a chance to be saved. No. Why would God do such a thing? I don't believe He would.

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 05:15 PM
It was His purpose to offer salvation to them, but they rejected it. It was God's purpose to send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). God desires all to be saved and He gave His Son as a ransom for all (1 Tim 2:4-6).

But you're saying it wasn't His purpose to save them? I completely disagree. 2 Thess 2:9-10 clearly implies that had they accepted the truth they would have been saved. It is for the reason that they rejected the truth that God sends them strong delusion. Not because God wanted to do that in the first place. He does it as punishment for their rebellion.

Eric

If it's God purpose to save all men, but He doesn't because they reject Him...then Christ dying on the cross cannot do what God promised it would. I believe Christ truly accomplished salvation on the cross for all who would be saved. Salvation is not merely offered to them, it is supernaturally given them...a free gift, not according to the will of man (accepting or rejecting), but by the will of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

IBWatching
Sep 19th 2008, 05:22 PM
Yet the preceding verses gives the reason. That when presented with the truth in Christ, these men preferred to believe the lie of Satan rather than the truth God sent to them so they could be saved. And according to the prophecies given about those days, Israel was about to be judged for crucifying the Lord Jesus.

Stephen's testimony in Acts 7 gives us further insight regarding the reason of why Israel was to be judged. He was accused of blasphemy for saying that the temple was going to be destroyed by Jesus and the rites given to them by Moses changed. But Stephen wasn't blasphemying, he was exegeting the prophecy given to Daniel in 9:26-27.

This was the same open book that John was given to eat in Revelation because the time for that prophecy had come. It is also the one Jesus refers to when He spoke of the coming destruction of Jerusalem as being in accordance with what Daniel wrote about the abomination that brings their desolation.

(2 Th 2:8 KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

To be consumed by the Spirit of the Lord's mouth is prophecy coming to bear. The translators took some liberty in adding "with" twice in this rather difficultly worded passage. But what is being destroyed is the brightness - the appearing of the one coming in the power of Satan to work this iniquity - bringing it to its fullness so it can be judged according to the prophecy given.

(2 Th 2:9 KJV) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Satan is the one working this iniquity under the guidance of the Lord which was to bring the cross to pass. But those men who were responsible for it would be judged nonetheless. It is not unlike how Pharoah's heart was hardened so that the people could be delivered by the mighty signs and wonders which gave witness to the glory of the Lord.

Nice Post. Answers the OP precisely! :)

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 05:23 PM
Greetings tgallison,

I agree! God does not change the heart of Pharaoah, truth is Pharaoah is in the same condition that all humanity is prior to salvation. Hence the problem for all mankind, we all reject Christ because our nature is bound to sin and evil. It's a mistake to think we are called sinners because we sin, when in reality we sin because we are all born into a sin nature that knows nothing other than sin and death.This is not true. All people have the knowledge of God in them, according to Romans 1, because He makes Himself known to them by what He has made. People know right from wrong and have the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil. Sure, we have a tendency to choose evil most of the time. That's where the gospel and the convicting power of the Spirit come in to help lead people towards repentance and faith in Christ.


We are no different than Pharaoah. Unless the Lord gives us new birth in Him, we will continue to reject God and His Son, and yes we die in our sins with no second chance for receiving life.What you're saying here is not taught anywhere in scripture. Nowhere does it say that we can only stop rejecting God after we're born again.


Because we are all like Pharaoh, God must intervene in our lives, changing our hearts and giving us His nature or none could become saved. This isn't taught anywhere in scripture. Yes, He must intervene in people's lives for them to be saved and He does so by having the gospel preached to them and by convicting people of their sins by the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't teach anywhere that He gives people His nature so that they can then be saved.

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 05:30 PM
If it's God purpose to save all men, but He doesn't because they reject Him...then Christ dying on the cross cannot do what God promised it would.It's God's purpose to give all men the chance to be saved. It's His desire that all men would be saved, but He also does not desire to do the repenting and believing for anyone because He wants people to come to Him willfully and freely.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


I believe Christ truly accomplished salvation on the cross for all who would be saved. Salvation was not merely offered to them, it was supernaturally given them...a free gift, not according to the will of man (accepting or rejecting), but by the will of God.And I completely disagree with you. What you're saying doesn't line up with scriptures like these and others:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 05:41 PM
This is not true. All people have the knowledge of God in them, according to Romans 1, because He makes Himself known to them by what He has made. People know right from wrong and have the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil. Sure, we have a tendency to choose evil most of the time. That's where the gospel and the convicting power of the Spirit come in to help lead people towards repentance and faith in Christ.

How does having a knowledge of God that comes through natural revelation cause one to have a knowledge of Christ that comes only through supernatural revelation? Prior to salvation we don't choose evil most of the time...we choose evil all of the time. Even our so-called righteous good deeds prior to salvation are but filthy rags.

Blessings,
RW

divaD
Sep 19th 2008, 05:42 PM
But what is being destroyed is the brightness - the appearing of the one
coming in the power of Satan to work this iniquity - bringing it to its fullness so it can be judged according to the prophecy
given.


Hi Robin. I don't follow you at all here. 'brightness' means epiphaneia. An appearing, appearance.


This same word is also used in 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 1:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:8, and Titus 2:13, all in relation to Christ and His appearing.

Am I misunderstanding your post? You appear to be saying just the opposite of what this verse is stating.

Reynolds357
Sep 19th 2008, 06:14 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

The Holy Spirit calls man. There comes a time that His calling ceases and God allows Satan to completely ravage the Flesh, Soul, and Spirit of the one who rejected God. Why does God cast men into the lake of fire at the final Judgment? Both have the same answer. God made a way for us to have salvation. He does not make us accept His free gift. However, there are time limits on when we can accept His gift.

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 06:20 PM
Greetings tgallison,

I agree! God does not change the heart of Pharaoah, truth is Pharaoah is in the same condition that all humanity is prior to salvation. Hence the problem for all mankind, we all reject Christ because our nature is bound to sin and evil. It's a mistake to think we are called sinners because we sin, when in reality we sin because we are all born into a sin nature that knows nothing other than sin and death. We are no different than Pharaoah. Unless the Lord gives us new birth in Him, we will continue to reject God and His Son, and yes we die in our sins with no second chance for receiving life.

Because we are all like Pharaoh, God must intervene in our lives, changing our hearts and giving us His nature or none could become saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Disagree! We can have a zeal for God without knowledge. A desire for Him, and to please Him. A heart toward God, it can be with or without a meek and contrite spirit.

Romans 10:1-3 "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Their heart was toward God, yet they were not saved.

Job's story is similar, but with the exception that we are shown his salvation.

According to what you believe, Pharaoh would have an excuse for rejecting God.

Romans 1:20-25 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own herts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

The Word clearly states we are responsible for our relationship with God. That we will be without excuse.

terrell

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 06:34 PM
Where does it say that God did not already "help them toward forgiveness"? I'm sure He did. But they rejected Him. They received not (did not accept and embrace) the love of the truth that they might be saved. This means that they could have been saved if they only had accepted the truth of the gospel.

I thought the deadline to accept Christ was one's date of death? Why did these guys have their deadline moved up then?

seamus414
Sep 19th 2008, 06:36 PM
'sends' :

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=649
Strong's Number: 649 a)poste—llw
Original Word Word Origin
a)poste—llw from (575) and (4724)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apostello ap-os-tel'-lo
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 1:398,67
Definition


1. to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2. to send away, dismiss
1. to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2. to order one to depart, send off
3. to drive away
**************
These people already left God..sent themselves away by rejecting Him...He is basically saying farewell...

What a terrible place to be in with God!


God bless

Taking the definition of the word send to mean "to allow one to depart" this passage makes much more sense.

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 06:41 PM
I thought the deadline to accept Christ was one's date of death? Why did these guys have their deadline moved up then?

Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:"

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 07:42 PM
Disagree! We can have a zeal for God without knowledge. A desire for Him, and to please Him. A heart toward God, it can be with or without a meek and contrite spirit.

Romans 10:1-3 "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Their heart was toward God, yet they were not saved.

Their zeal for God was in the law. They thought they could establish their own righteousness through obedience to His law, and therefore did not submit to the righteousness of God in Christ. In their righteousness which is of the law, they could not obey perfectly for salvation.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.



According to what you believe, Pharaoh would have an excuse for rejecting God.

Romans 1:20-25 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own herts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

The Word clearly states we are responsible for our relationship with God. That we will be without excuse.

terrell




Pharaoh and all men are without excuse because God has clearly revealed Himself through creation. What was the reply from Pharaoah when Moses said "Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." "And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Is Pharaoah without excuse? No more than any unsaved man is without excuse.

Natural revelation of God through creation is given unto all men, and why all men are without excuse. But revelation of Christ unto salvation is given supernaturally through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God. Man who rejects the natural revelation through creation cannot receive the supernatural revelation through the Spirit and Word.

'Being understood' is through the mind and heart of man, which should recognize and love God through His marvelous creation. But they refuse to acknowledge the light God has given them in creation, and are therefore without excuse. They know God is the Sovereign Creator, yet they commit idolatry, and abominations unto gods of their own creations. When we have nothing more than the manifestation of the living God in the works of creation, providence, the law and conscience, we have enough to render us inexcusable before God. It is our duty to make good use of these things, and the cause of our not doing so is our own evil hearts.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

God has given every man the means of knowing there is a God, for the world does not exist by chance, nor does it sustain itself. Though fallen men have this knowledge they neither think nor speak honorably of Him, and they do not glorify Him as God, nor honor Him as the Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord and Governor of the universe. This leaves them without excuse in the Day of Judgment.

How can fallen man, who will not acknowledge God as Sovereign, Creator, Sustainer of all things, accept His Son? If they will not honor the Father they will not honor His Son for salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 08:21 PM
How does having a knowledge of God that comes through natural revelation cause one to have a knowledge of Christ that comes only through supernatural revelation? Prior to salvation we don't choose evil most of the time...we choose evil all of the time. Even our so-called righteous good deeds prior to salvation are but filthy rags.

Blessings,
RWYou missed the point, Roger. You said "we are all born into a sin nature that knows nothing other than sin and death.". That isn't true since, despite having a sin nature, people are expected to know things other than sin and death and that includes knowing God by what He has made. We don't choose evil all of the time, Roger. Where do you get that from? People can choose to repent or not. They can choose to accept Christ or not. People have the ability to make moral choices even before they are born again. Nowhere in scripture does it say that one has to be born again and saved before they have the ability to repent and/or accept or reject the truth. Jesus commanded people who were not born again and saved to "repent and believe the gospel". He didn't say "as soon as you are born again, repent and believe the gospel".

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 08:34 PM
I thought the deadline to accept Christ was one's date of death?Where does it say this is true of everyone?


Why did these guys have their deadline moved up then?Sometimes God will give people over to their sins and harden their hearts for a purpose, such as He did with Pharaoh.

Romans 9
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Now, I believe many misinterpret this passage as if God just randomly has mercy on who He will have mercy and randomly hardens who He will harden. No. There is always a reason for what He does, such as in the case of Pharaoh. To say that He hardened Pharaoh's heart and not someone else's is not a reason to say that God isn't fair. He can do as He pleases and harden whoever's heart He wants and we shouldn't question His purposes. But this doesn't mean that He hardens someone's heart who hasn't already hardened their own heart. Why would God do such a thing? Does that go along with His character, to harden someone's heart and not ever give them a chance to be saved? No.

grptinHisHand
Sep 19th 2008, 08:39 PM
Not much time, but before I leave for the weekend I have to bring this up.
Genesis 1:31 We are made in God's image.
Ch. 3 we are marred by sin.
NT God sent His Son to redeem us, to buy us back, to restore His image in us, His creation. Many verses you can look at for this, but I will mention John 14:6.
Then go back to Terrell's earlier post and read the Scriptures he posted.
God sent His Son so that ALL might be saved.

read about that restoration at the website you will find if you research sharing the message of God "everyday, everywhere, with everyone".
Charleston Outreach ministry teaches this. It is a POWERFUL message for us all. (For those interested in discovering why we are called to go and make disciples.)

see ya next week

g :hug:

John146
Sep 19th 2008, 08:59 PM
Their zeal for God was in the law. They thought they could establish their own righteousness through obedience to His law, and therefore did not submit to the righteousness of God in Christ. In their righteousness which is of the law, they could not obey perfectly for salvation.

[COLOR=black]Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.But the fact is that they had a zeal for God. They needed some help in understanding who God really was and what He wanted from people, but that doesn't change the fact that they had a zeal for God. Your doctrine says this is not possible for anyone who is not born again.

Was Cornelius born again yet before Peter was sent to him? No. Yet this is what it says of Cornelius:

1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Cornelius' heart was in the right place, but he did not yet hear the gospel. He clearly was capable of more than just sinning and dying even before being born again.

Lydia is another example.

Acts 16
13And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Look at this closely. Lydia worshipped God even before hearing the gospel being preached by Paul. She was not yet born again and saved. She first had to hear the gospel and respond to it. The Lord opened her heart to it because she had already opened her heart to the Lord despite not yet having heard the gospel. You would probably try to say that the act of the Lord opening her heart was when she was regenerated. But even if that was the case she was already worshipping God before that. She already had faith, but she needed to hear the gospel and respond to it so that she would be born again and saved.


Pharaoh and all men are without excuse because God has clearly revealed Himself through creation. What was the reply from Pharaoah when Moses said "Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." "And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Is Pharaoah without excuse? No more than any unsaved man is without excuse.

Natural revelation of God through creation is given unto all men, and why all men are without excuse. But revelation of Christ unto salvation is given supernaturally through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God. Man who rejects the natural revelation through creation cannot receive the supernatural revelation through the Spirit and Word. Man chooses to reject the natural revelation. That's why man is without excuse. Why would man be without excuse if he couldn't help but reject God and change the truth of God into a lie?

In the same way, man chooses to reject the gospel. That is why it says of some that they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved and of others that they always resist the Holy Spirit. They don't reject the truth and resist the Spirit because they can't help it. It is their choice. That is why God gets angry at them and will punish them. If they had no ability and no choice to do otherwise, then for what reason would they be punished for eternity in the lake of fire?


'Being understood' is through the mind and heart of man, which should recognize and love God through His marvelous creation. But they refuse to acknowledge the light God has given them in creation, and are therefore without excuse. They know God is the Sovereign Creator, yet they commit idolatry, and abominations unto gods of their own creations. When we have nothing more than the manifestation of the living God in the works of creation, providence, the law and conscience, we have enough to render us inexcusable before God. It is our duty to make good use of these things, and the cause of our not doing so is our own evil hearts.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

God has given every man the means of knowing there is a God, for the world does not exist by chance, nor does it sustain itself. Though fallen men have this knowledge they neither think nor speak honorably of Him, and they do not glorify Him as God, nor honor Him as the Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord and Governor of the universe. This leaves them without excuse in the Day of Judgment. The only reason they could be without excuse is if they had a choice to retain their knowledge of God or to change the truth of God into a lie. If they had no choice then that would be their excuse. They would be able to say: "we couldn't help but change the truth of God into a lie rather than retaining the knowledge of God".


How can fallen man, who will not acknowledge God as Sovereign, Creator, Sustainer of all things, accept His Son? If they will not honor the Father they will not honor His Son for salvation.

Many Blessings,
RWBecause God gives them the ability to make choices. Romans 1 doesn't say that all men change the truth of God into a lie. It's only those who decide that worshiping the creature more than the Creator is preferable or that it is not worth glorifying and thanking God for creating them. But people like Cornelius and Lydia decided that they should glorify and thank God for creating them and being who His creation revealed Him to be even before being born again and saved.

I'm curious, Roger. What if someone came up to you and asked you what they had to do to be saved like the prison keeper did with Paul and Silas (Acts 16:27-34). What would you tell that person?

tgallison
Sep 19th 2008, 09:10 PM
[quote]Their zeal for God was in the law. They thought they could establish their own righteousness through obedience to His law, and therefore did not submit to the righteousness of God in Christ. In their righteousness which is of the law, they could not obey perfectly for salvation. That is why I included Job. He was not under the law, yet he had a zeal for God, but it was without knowledge.

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge." (Job was seeking God, but it was not with a broken and contrite heart.)


Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.FAITH


Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.WORKS




Pharaoh and all men are without excuse because God has clearly revealed Himself through creation. What was the reply from Pharaoah when Moses said "Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." "And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Is Pharaoah without excuse? No more than any unsaved man is without excuse. When Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice---", he was rejecting God, neither Israel did this, nor Job. I believe this was blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.


Natural revelation of God through creation is given unto all men, and why all men are without excuse. But revelation of Christ unto salvation is given supernaturally through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God.Yes it is given supernaturally, but it is given only to those who seek Him with a meek and contrite spirit.


Man who rejects the natural revelation through creation cannot receive the supernatural revelation through the Spirit and Word. True


'Being understood' is through the mind and heart of man, which should recognize and love God through His marvelous creation. But they refuse to acknowledge the light God has given them in creation, and are therefore without excuse. They know God is the Sovereign Creator, yet they commit idolatry, and abominations unto gods of their own creations. When we have nothing more than the manifestation of the living God in the works of creation, providence, the law and conscience, we have enough to render us inexcusable before God. It is our duty to make good use of these things, and the cause of our not doing so is our own evil hearts.True


Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Nothing better than scripture


God has given every man the means of knowing there is a God, for the world does not exist by chance, nor does it sustain itself. Though fallen men have this knowledge they neither think nor speak honorably of Him, and they do not glorify Him as God, nor honor Him as the Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord and Governor of the universe. This leaves them without excuse in the Day of Judgment.

How can fallen man, who will not acknowledge God as Sovereign, Creator, Sustainer of all things, accept His Son? If they will not honor the Father they will not honor His Son for salvation.



I thought we were disagreeing about something, but now I am not sure what it was.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 10:23 PM
You missed the point, Roger. You said "we are all born into a sin nature that knows nothing other than sin and death.". That isn't true since, despite having a sin nature, people are expected to know things other than sin and death and that includes knowing God by what He has made. We don't choose evil all of the time, Roger. Where do you get that from? People can choose to repent or not. They can choose to accept Christ or not. People have the ability to make moral choices even before they are born again. Nowhere in scripture does it say that one has to be born again and saved before they have the ability to repent and/or accept or reject the truth. Jesus commanded people who were not born again and saved to "repent and believe the gospel". He didn't say "as soon as you are born again, repent and believe the gospel".

Eric, the choices that unbelievers make is not evil all of the time, according to us. But while remaining in iniquity even our righteousness is but filth. (Isa 64:6)

It is not I who say we are all born into a sin nature knowing nothing but sin and death, it is Scripture that tells us this. We are born dead in trespasses and sins and must be made alive in Christ before we can choose to repent and turn to Christ that we might have life. Every man is commanded to repent and believe the gospel, but who will, who can?

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 10:25 PM
Not much time, but before I leave for the weekend I have to bring this up.
Genesis 1:31 We are made in God's image.
Ch. 3 we are marred by sin.

We are more than marred by sin. We are dead (spiritually) in our sins and trespasses.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 19th 2008, 11:32 PM
But the fact is that they had a zeal for God. They needed some help in understanding who God really was and what He wanted from people, but that doesn't change the fact that they had a zeal for God. Your doctrine says this is not possible for anyone who is not born again.

They had a zeal according to the law. They zealouly obeyed, believing that their obedience would save them. They had help understanding, God sent them the law and the prophets. They would not believe whom God had sent, and they refused to believe the Son, fulfilling prophesy.



Was Cornelius born again yet before Peter was sent to him? No. Yet this is what it says of Cornelius:

1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Cornelius' heart was in the right place, but he did not yet hear the gospel. He clearly was capable of more than just sinning and dying even before being born again.

Cornelius worshipped Israel's God even before Peter came to him. He would not have had a good report among the Jews if he was not a righteous man who feared God. The Jews would not testify to his godliness if he did not already worship Israel's God.

Ac 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews,

Cornelius' heart was already opened to receiving the message of the gospel even before Peter came.

...was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.



Lydia is another example.

Acts 16
13And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Look at this closely. Lydia worshipped God even before hearing the gospel being preached by Paul. She was not yet born again and saved.

Clearly, Lydia is a believer in Israel's God. How can you question her salvation? She clearly, like Cornelius fears God. Just as Cornelius had learned of the true God through the teaching in the synagogue, so too Lydia's heart had already been prepared to meet Christ from the OT teaching. Christ sends Paul and the others to Philippi so that Lydia can hear the message of salvation. This is the work of the Lord that her heart had already been opened to hear. The result, like that of Cornelius is that Lydia responds to Paul's message and embraces the Lord as her Savior. The fact that Lydia had come to the place of prayer depicts Lydia as a God-fearing woman whose spiritual influence permeates her entire household.



She first had to hear the gospel and respond to it. The Lord opened her heart to it because she had already opened her heart to the Lord despite not yet having heard the gospel. You would probably try to say that the act of the Lord opening her heart was when she was regenerated. But even if that was the case she was already worshipping God before that. She already had faith, but she needed to hear the gospel and respond to it so that she would be born again and saved.

As you have well said, Lydia already had faith (she was already a believer), and hearing the gospel simply confirms her faith and assures her that the Messiah, she had heard would come to redeem her, has indeed come.



Man chooses to reject the natural revelation. That's why man is without excuse. Why would man be without excuse if he couldn't help but reject God and change the truth of God into a lie?

Since man is altogether DEAD in trespasses and sins, the only choice he can make is that which is according to his nature. The natural man will never choose Christ and life, he cannot, and therefore will not.



In the same way, man chooses to reject the gospel. That is why it says of some that they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved and of others that they always resist the Holy Spirit. They don't reject the truth and resist the Spirit because they can't help it. It is their choice. That is why God gets angry at them and will punish them. If they had no ability and no choice to do otherwise, then for what reason would they be punished for eternity in the lake of fire?

Exactly! Fallen man always chooses to reject the gospel. They reject the gospel because they refuse to acknowledge God in Christ as ONE.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



Because God gives them the ability to make choices. Romans 1 doesn't say that all men change the truth of God into a lie. It's only those who decide that worshiping the creature more than the Creator is preferable or that it is not worth glorifying and thanking God for creating them. But people like Cornelius and Lydia decided that they should glorify and thank God for creating them and being who His creation revealed Him to be even before being born again and saved.

Yes, man makes choices according to his/her nature. One cannot choose against one's nature. We all worship the created rather than the Creator prior to salvation. We all make gods in whatever image suits us.

Both Cornelius and Lydia, like Zacharias and Elisabeth worshipped, and feared God from OT teaching. Their hearts were opened because they already had faith that Messiah would come through the writings of the OT prophets.



I'm curious, Roger. What if someone came up to you and asked you what they had to do to be saved like the prison keeper did with Paul and Silas (Acts 16:27-34). What would you tell that person?

Good question! I would tell them to believe, and then like Paul and Silas I would speak unto them the Word of the Lord. I would tell them that faith comes by hearing the Word, so it is important to get into the Word. And I would tell them that God uses preaching of the cross for it is the power of God to save, and that God uses preaching to save them that believe. I would also tell them that the fact they are interested could be that the Father is drawing them to hear the Word, be given the gift of faith, that they might repent and turn to Christ for life. For none can come to the Lord unless the Father first draws them. Then I would hope that I too could rejoice with them after God has given them the free gift of eternal life through salvation.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Sep 20th 2008, 12:02 AM
Yes, man makes choices according to his/her nature. One cannot choose against one's nature. We all worship the created
rather than the Creator prior to salvation. We all make gods in whatever image suits us.


RW, I take that you are deriving these deductions from Romans ch 1? If not, I apologize. If so, is this really what this is stating within context?

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.



The first question one needs to ask, whom is this referring to?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


It is referring to those that hold the truth in unrighteousness. Why?

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Notice what verse 21 states. It states that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


This alone tells us that the context is not speaking of every living human being since the beginning of time, but is specifically speaking about those that hold the truth in unrighteousness, and that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful. In order to even hold the truth in unrighteousness, one would first have to know the truth, wouldn't you agree? Does everyone that has ever lived know the truth? I think the simple answer to that is no. Would you not agree?

BadDog
Sep 20th 2008, 03:34 AM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?Well, as tgullison said, read it in context:

2 Thessalonians 2:8b-12 The Lord Jesus will destroy him (The lawless one - the Antichrist) with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception (It is Satan who deceives - God simply allows those who enjoy unrighteousness as it says below and hence refused to consider that the gospel is the truth to be deceived by Satan's work.) among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion (Through Satan. Essentially he allows Satan's deception to be effective.) so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned--those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians says some things about this also, and remember... same author:

2 Corinthians 4:2-4 Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God's message, but in God's sight we commend ourselves to every person's conscience by an open display of the truth. But if, in fact, our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. Regarding them: the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The god of this age is Satan. He is the one who blinds those who do not respond to the gospel... more on this from the parable of the Sower. But first here's what Christ said about why he spoke in parables - just before explaining the parable:

Matthew 13:13-15 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand. In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. (Why? Because of their attitude of heart as the next sentence explains: ) For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing (IOW, they are close-minded.) , and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back--and I would cure them.

If it was up to God, He would cure them. But they have a choice... and it starts with being open to genuinely consider the truth.

Now, the parable:

Matthew 13:19 When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one (Satan) comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path.

It's more clear in Luke:

Luke 8:11, 12 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. ..."

So Satan comes along, like a bird, and takes the Word of God out of the hearts of those who hear and do not understand what they have heard, as Matthew said above... so we need to be clear when we share the gospel.

Look what Christ said about Satan and some who were close-minded... the Pharisees:

John 8:43-45 Why don't you (The Pharisees) understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to My word. You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Satan is the deceiver... the father of lies. (IOW, he is the source of all lies.) Now Jesus is the truth, right? (John 14:6)

BD

crush
Sep 20th 2008, 03:57 AM
delusion has to be sent to the wicked first, before the gospel is preached throughout the world [Rev 14:6] otherwise they would believe the gospel and be saved [Mar 4:12]

BadDog
Sep 20th 2008, 04:11 AM
delusion has to be sent to the wicked first, before the gospel is preached throughout the world [Rev 14:6] otherwise they would believe the gospel and be saved [Mar 4:12]Delusion is ONLY sent to those who are close-minded. (See my post above - I went into some detail on this.)

Satan is the deceiver. God always speaks truth.

BD

crush
Sep 20th 2008, 04:15 AM
Check out Rev 16....

I don't think that Satan's deception is more powerful than God's wrath. IOW the people suffering God's wrath would probably try and repent, if they could, don't you think?

BadDog
Sep 20th 2008, 04:25 AM
Check out Rev 16....

I don't think that Satan's deception is more powerful than God's wrath. IOW the people suffering God's wrath would probably try and repent, if they could, don't you think?Actually, I don't. :P Now of course once they were in hell, they would.

People will not try to repent because they are close-minded... they ears, eyes and minds are closed to hearing/considering the truth.

What God wants are genuine seekers. He doesn't want someone to hear about a fire, and take some fire-insurance policy out...

But God "is not willing for ANY to perish but that all would come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) It is simply not God's nature to try to deceive anyone. This is being expressed in language that makes sense to us, as humans, such as referring to changing His mind. But God never changes His mind - never. He is immutable. Similarly, He is all about truth, and never deceives anyone. Satan, on the other hand...

BD

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 02:10 PM
RW, I take that you are deriving these deductions from Romans ch 1? If not, I apologize. If so, is this really what this is stating within context?

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The first question one needs to ask, whom is this referring to?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

It is referring to those that hold the truth in unrighteousness. Why?

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice what verse 21 states. It states that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This alone tells us that the context is not speaking of every living human being since the beginning of time, but is specifically speaking about those that hold the truth in unrighteousness, and that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful. In order to even hold the truth in unrighteousness, one would first have to know the truth, wouldn't you agree? Does everyone that has ever lived know the truth? I think the simple answer to that is no. Would you not agree?

Greetings Diva,

Every man ever born has been given the same evidence, that no man will be able to stand in the Judgment claiming they never knew, or they never had the truth. Yet some supress this truth given to every man...why? Why is it that some "see" or "know" and glorify God, and many instead refuse to acknowledge that God is the Sovereign Giver and Sustainer of all life? Why do some not glorify Him as God, are not thankful, become vain in their own imaginations, and become fools with darkened hearts? Why do only some embrace the truth, while others supress it? Is it God's fault? Is He the reason they supress the light He has revealed to them through nature? Who are the righteous, and how have they become righteous? Is it through their own righteousness that they are made righteous?

Let's see who Paul is warning of those who are unrighteous, and supress the truth, though it is clearly revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man.

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Ro 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Ro 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Every man is born in Adam, and as such born with a fallen sinful nature, and in bondage to sin and death through the power of the devil. But some men, as the above text states are called of Jesus Christ to be saints. How were these called? According to Paul it was through the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes. How do they believe when they hear? Again, according to Paul it is through the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. Is it through my faith or my righteousness? Not according to Paul:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

So while it is indeed true this is warning us that some men supress the truth in unrighteousness even though the knowledge of God is manifest in them, and shown to them. It is equally true that every man is born in the same unrighteouness, and would remain unrighteous, separated from God...unless they are called to be saints through the gospel of Christ, and receive the righteousness of God by faith of Christ, thereby assuring they are among those who will be resurrected from the dead. Salvation is of the Lord!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 02:17 PM
Delusion is ONLY sent to those who are close-minded. (See my post above - I went into some detail on this.)

Satan is the deceiver. God always speaks truth.

BD

Is Satan more powerful than God? Even though it is the will of God that all men come to Him that they might have life, Satan can keep them in delusion so they cannot come to Him? Why? Because the will of man is able to prevent the will of God to save them?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 02:21 PM
Actually, I don't. :P Now of course once they were in hell, they would.

People will not try to repent because they are close-minded... they ears, eyes and minds are closed to hearing/considering the truth.

What God wants are genuine seekers. He doesn't want someone to hear about a fire, and take some fire-insurance policy out...

But God "is not willing for ANY to perish but that all would come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) It is simply not God's nature to try to deceive anyone. This is being expressed in language that makes sense to us, as humans, such as referring to changing His mind. But God never changes His mind - never. He is immutable. Similarly, He is all about truth, and never deceives anyone. Satan, on the other hand...

BD

Where do these genuine seekers come from? Remember Eph 2? "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Sep 20th 2008, 06:27 PM
Greetings Diva,

Every man ever born has been given the same evidence, that no man will be able to stand in the Judgment claiming they never knew, or they never had the truth. Yet some supress this truth given to every man...why? Why is it that some "see" or "know" and glorify God, and many instead refuse to acknowledge that God is the Sovereign Giver and Sustainer of all life? Why do some not glorify Him as God, are not thankful, become vain in their own imaginations, and become fools with darkened hearts? Why do only some embrace the truth, while others supress it? Is it God's fault? Is He the reason they supress the light He has revealed to them through nature? Who are the righteous, and how have they become righteous? Is it through their own righteousness that they are made righteous?

Let's see who Paul is warning of those who are unrighteous, and supress the truth, though it is clearly revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man.

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Ro 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Ro 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Every man is born in Adam, and as such born with a fallen sinful nature, and in bondage to sin and death through the power of the devil. But some men, as the above text states are called of Jesus Christ to be saints. How were these called? According to Paul it was through the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes. How do they believe when they hear? Again, according to Paul it is through the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. Is it through my faith or my righteousness? Not according to Paul:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

So while it is indeed true this is warning us that some men supress the truth in unrighteousness even though the knowledge of God is manifest in them, and shown to them. It is equally true that every man is born in the same unrighteouness, and would remain unrighteous, separated from God...unless they are called to be saints through the gospel of Christ, and receive the righteousness of God by faith of Christ, thereby assuring they are among those who will be resurrected from the dead. Salvation is of the Lord!

Many Blessings,
RW



Hi RW. I hope you don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time here. I fail to see this in any other manner that what is written here within this passage.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Look at this verse. This verse has to be linked to someone, right? So whom would it be linked to?


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This verse doesn't just say " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men", it also says "who hold the truth in unrighteousness".

Now let's assume that verse 21 is not directly linked to verse 18, but instead, let's assume this entire passage is speaking about each and every last person from the beginning until the end of time. But doesn't that present a problem in verse 21? Doesn't verse 21 tell us when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful? From this perspective, this verse would be linked to every human being that was ever born. We know that can't be right. This verse has to be linked to something specific in order to even make proper sense.

Now if verse 21 is directly linked to verse 18, then this would mean that verses 19, 20, 22-32 would also be directly linked to verse 18. My point is, nowhere in this passage do we see evidence of it speaking of every living human being, but we do see evidence of it specifically speaking about all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.


Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


How should we interpret this verse? Should we take it literally to mean that all of mankind
can clearly see with their own eyes, via the world and it's surroundings, that God created it all? If so, how do we explain all of the people who are born blind, thus having the inabilty to literally see any of this? And if we are to interpret it to mean, that this is speaking about our understanding and not so much with our visual, then how do we explain all of the people who are born mentally retarded? How would they understand this? But, if this passage is specifically speaking about all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, and when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened, then this passage makes sense, thus no need to seek unanswerable questions, such as some of the above.

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 07:17 PM
Hi RW. I hope you don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time here. I fail to see this in any other manner that what is written here within this passage.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Look at this verse. This verse has to be linked to someone, right? So whom would it be linked to?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This verse doesn't just say " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men", it also says "who hold the truth in unrighteousness".

Now let's assume that verse 21 is not directly linked to verse 18, but instead, let's assume this entire passage is speaking about each and every last person from the beginning until the end of time. But doesn't that present a problem in verse 21? Doesn't verse 21 tell us when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful? From this perspective, this verse would be linked to every human being that was ever born. We know that can't be right. This verse has to be linked to something specific in order to even make proper sense.

Now if verse 21 is directly linked to verse 18, then this would mean that verses 19, 20, 22-32 would also be directly linked to verse 18. My point is, nowhere in this passage do we see evidence of it speaking of every living human being, but we do see evidence of it specifically speaking about all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

How should we interpret this verse? Should we take it literally to mean that all of mankind can clearly see with their own eyes, via the world and it's surroundings, that God created it all? If so, how do we explain all of the people who are born blind, thus having the inabilty to literally see any of this? And if we are to interpret it to mean, that this is speaking about our understanding and not so much with our visual, then how do we explain all of the people who are born mentally retarded? How would they understand this?

Greetings Diva,

This passage is speaking about those who know God and supress this knowledge. This knowledge is not limited to only those of vs 18; i.e. ungodly and unrighteous men...the knowledge of God is revealed through creation, and there is also the voice of the same God in conscience. Every man is given this same knowledge not only through the voice of God heard and seen in creation, but also the same voice put in our hearts, bearing witness to God, our own thoughts either accusing or excusing us.

Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Did you miss the passage from Eph 2? Paul is speaking to those who had been dead in trespasses and sins, who walked according to the power of the air, the spirit that still works in the children of disbedience: Among whom we ALL had our conversation in times past fulfilling our fleshly desires of the mind and by nature were children of wrath. Paul doesn't let us off the hook because we may have been born blind or mentally impaired. The Scriptures tell us NONE are righteous, not none except the mentally impaired or infants.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



But, if this passage is specifically speaking about all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, and when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened, then this passage makes sense, thus no need to seek unanswerable questions, such as some of the above.

Of course the passage is speaking of how the ungodly and unrighteous know God and glorify Him not, are not thankful, and become fools. In which we were ALL by nature the children of wrath, even as they are. Unless the Lord gives us life in Him, we will remain in our fallen natures without God in the world, and without hope.

Many Blessings,
RW

petepet
Sep 20th 2008, 07:30 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

We must discriminate between God's positive and direct action where everything literally depends on God, and for which He is totally responsible and accountable (if we can ever call God accountable) and God's indirect action where He 'acts' through the events of history over which He has control although allowing them to go foward for the overall benefit of mankind. Thus Assyria was the rod of God's anger. But Assyria's aggressive attitude was not of God. He did, however, utilise it in His purposes.

This verse is of the latter kind. God gives them a strong delusion because having been faced up with truth they have rejected it. Thus God allows them to follow the path that they have chosen to its logical conclusion, by becoming more and more deluded. As they run from God, God allows them to go further and further into the darkness.. We can compare how He hardened Pharaoh's heart, but only after Pharaoh had first hardened his own heart.

And He allows this (as He did with the Pharisees) so as to make clear the difference between true righteousness and false righteousness, true faith and false faith.

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 08:52 PM
We must discriminate between God's positive and direct action where everything literally depends on God, and for which He is totally responsible and accountable (if we can ever call God accountable) and God's indirect action where He 'acts' through the events of history over which He has control although allowing them to go foward for the overall benefit of mankind. Thus Assyria was the rod of God's anger. But Assyria's aggressive attitude was not of God. He did, however, utilise it in His purposes.

This verse is of the latter kind. God gives them a strong delusion because having been faced up with truth they have rejected it. Thus God allows them to follow the path that they have chosen to its logical conclusion, by becoming more and more deluded. As they run from God, God allows them to go further and further into the darkness.. We can compare how He hardened Pharaoh's heart, but only after Pharaoh had first hardened his own heart.

And He allows this (as He did with the Pharisees) so as to make clear the difference between true righteousness and false righteousness, true faith and false faith.

Greetings Petepet,

I am out of necessity repeating myself. I do this to emphasize that the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh shows us how God uses sin and evil to accomplish His purposes in redeeming His people. If we argue that Pharaoh hardened his heart first, so God can use him to show His power and declare His name unto all the earth, then God is NOT Sovereign, but dependent upon fallen Pharaoh to manifest His power and name unto all the world.

This passage below is God speaking to Moses upon first arriving in Egypt from Midian. Read carefully because very clearly the passage shows us that God is going to harden the heart of Pharaoh before we read that Pharaoh hardens his own heart.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

How can this be? Is God the cause of Pharaoh's sinning? Absolutely not! God knows the heart of Pharaoh is wicked, therefore God simply allows Pharaoh to do that which his evil heart desires. God could have intervened in the heart of Pharaoh, and even saved him, but instead God gave him up to a reprobate mind.

Is Pharaoh the exception? I mean is it only Pharaoh who has been born with a fallen nature, and therefore wicked? Or is every man born of Adam in the same fallen state?

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Sep 20th 2008, 08:54 PM
Don't convert this passage into bullets to fight the freewill/predestination debate. Paul's statement in 2Thess. 2 isn't meant to be taken as normative for all time. He is talking about a single event in the future in which God will act in a single instance for his end-time purposes. Paul isn't saying that God always brings a deluding influence. Rather, God will bring a deluding influence at the end when it's time to wrap things up.

Mograce2U
Sep 20th 2008, 09:40 PM
Don't convert this passage into bullets to fight the freewill/predestination debate. Paul's statement in 2Thess. 2 isn't meant to be taken as normative for all time. He is talking about a single event in the future in which God will act in a single instance for his end-time purposes. Paul isn't saying that God always brings a deluding influence. Rather, God will bring a deluding influence at the end when it's time to wrap things up.And the reason we can now know that is to happen again is because it is what He did before when He brought Judaism to its end.

RogerW
Sep 20th 2008, 09:44 PM
Don't convert this passage into bullets to fight the freewill/predestination debate. Paul's statement in 2Thess. 2 isn't meant to be taken as normative for all time. He is talking about a single event in the future in which God will act in a single instance for his end-time purposes. Paul isn't saying that God always brings a deluding influence. Rather, God will bring a deluding influence at the end when it's time to wrap things up.

Greetings BroRog,

The statement in 2Th 2 is meant for the last days. When did/does the last days or latter days begin according to the Scripture?

The passage tells us that Christ will not come again until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Paul tells us in vs 7 that this mystery of lawlessness is already at work at that very time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

How is the mystery of iniquity at work.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Are we to believe that deception and unrighteousness in them that perish has not been occuring throughout human history?

These last days, along with the spirit of anti-chirst began at the cross.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There have been scoffers in these last days saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?"

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

We are living in the last days that Paul is warning us of. Some things must happen before the Lord comes again, but these things described by Paul have been happening throughout these last days.

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Sep 21st 2008, 05:05 PM
Greetings BroRog,

We are living in the last days that Paul is warning us of. Some things must happen before the Lord comes again, but these things described by Paul have been happening throughout these last days.
Many Blessings,
RW

Yes, apostasy, for instance, has been happening throughout time. However, Paul is trying to point out that there will come such a widespread time of apostasy that those living in that time will recognize it as a unique event.

BadDog
Sep 21st 2008, 10:04 PM
Is Satan more powerful than God? Even though it is the will of God that all men come to Him that they might have life, Satan can keep them in delusion so they cannot come to Him? Why? Because the will of man is able to prevent the will of God to save them?

Many Blessings,
RWRW,

No, Satan is NOT more powerful. But God has chosen to give people a free will - to operate within that self-imposed restraint, you might say.

Now you could say, from a purely human point-of-view, that man's will could prevent God's will from saving them - but that is simply semantics. But one thing we cannot do is remove man's responsibility and freedom to choose.

And scripture is very clear that Satan does keep people deluded. I'll remind you of the scriptural evidence:

2 Thessalonians 2:8b-12 The Lord Jesus will destroy him (The lawless one - the Antichrist) with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception (It is Satan who deceives - God simply allows those who enjoy unrighteousness as it says below and hence refused to consider that the gospel is the truth to be deceived by Satan's work.) among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion (Through Satan. Essentially he allows Satan's deception to be effective.) so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned--those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians says some things about this also, and remember... same author:

2 Corinthians 4:2-4 Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God's message, but in God's sight we commend ourselves to every person's conscience by an open display of the truth. But if, in fact, our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. Regarding them: the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The god of this age is Satan. He is the one who blinds those who do not respond to the gospel...

Matthew 13:13-15 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand. In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. (Why? Because of their attitude of heart as the next sentence explains: ) For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing (IOW, they are close-minded.) , and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back--and I would cure them.

Matthew 13:19 When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one (Satan) comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path.

It's more clear in Luke:

Luke 8:11, 12 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. ..."

So Satan comes along, like a bird, and takes the Word of God out of the hearts of those who hear and do not understand what they have heard, as Matthew said above.

Satan is the deceiver... the father of lies. (IOW, he is the source of all lies.) Now Jesus is the truth, right? (John 14:6)

God does not cause some people to be so deceived that they will not respond to the gospel... that is, unless they are so close-minded - then He simply lets their own nature bring about their destiny. Otherwise what we have is an evil God, a monster really, who sends people to hell on a lark while saving others randomly. That is not how God works and thinks.


Now, the purpose of this thread was to help someone understand what is an apparent contradiction regarding God's character. For you and I to argue about the solution is questionable in its value, so I think I'll bid adieu now.

Thx anyway - let's just agree to disagree here.

BD

Oregongrown
Sep 21st 2008, 10:13 PM
2 Thess. 2:11: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To me, this seems totally the opposite of what God would want or do.

Any insight?

2 Thes 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

For me I have to read around the verses to get the meaning, just like in this case. It sounded really mean of God when I read your question and verse, but then I read more of 2 Thes and found out "why". There is much more to it also:)

God bless your day, ysic, denise

Oregongrown
Sep 21st 2008, 10:17 PM
I agree with this in part. I guess my specific question is, why would God send a delusion? Why not help them toward forgiveness, or, at the very least, do nothing so that they could choose forgiveness? Why delude them into more sin?

We can chose Truth or, we can choose a lie(a powerful delusion) I think it's power comes from what believing it will do for us:(Sort of like God says "door # 1" or "door #2". He doesn't just say door # 1 is it. Seems we always have a choice.

grptinHisHand
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:05 PM
We are more than marred by sin. We are dead (spiritually) in our sins and trespasses.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Many Blessings,
RW

Above is your answer to my post :


Originally Posted by grptinHisHand http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1794515#post1794515)
Not much time, but before I leave for the weekend I have to bring this up.
Genesis 1:31 We are made in God's image.
Ch. 3 we are marred by sin.


You are right! I should have said we were dead in trespasses and sins, not just marred. But see the rest on my post from Friday:


NT God sent His Son to redeem us, to buy us back, to restore His image in us, His creation. Many verses you can look at for this, but I will mention John 14:6.
Then go back to Terrell's earlier post and read the Scriptures he posted.
God sent His Son so that ALL might be saved.

read about that restoration at the website you will find if you research sharing the message of God "everyday, everywhere, with everyone".
Charleston Outreach ministry teaches this. It is a POWERFUL message for us all. (For those interested in discovering why we are called to go and make disciples.)

see ya next week


Okay, "next week" is here! ;)
This part speaks to our need to be restored to the image of God, to be like Him again. From death to life, life found ONLY in Christ. And, back to the OP, there comes a time that the Father says, okay you have rejected me for the last time. Again I say as in previous posts: the answer to the OP question, the answer is in the verse previous to the one quoted.
v 10 "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
Clearly states they have been given the opportunity to receive and be saved.
In Christ,
g :hug:

John146
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:42 PM
Where do these genuine seekers come from? Remember Eph 2? "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Many Blessings,
RWApparently, they must come from somewhere. I'd say they come from everywhere.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

RogerW
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:56 PM
Apparently, they must come from somewhere. I'd say they come from everywhere.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, Eric. These are those, who according to the verse must first have faith, and believe that He is, and they (those with faith, believing He is) are promised that He is a rewarder of them that [diligently] seek him. Who diligently seeks Him? Jo 6:44 No man can come to me..



Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

We find "hearing" is necessay even in Isaiah.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Blessings,
RW

John146
Sep 24th 2008, 06:40 PM
God does not cause some people to be so deceived that they will not respond to the gospel... that is, unless they are so close-minded - then He simply lets their own nature bring about their destiny. Otherwise what we have is an evil God, a monster really, who sends people to hell on a lark while saving others randomly. That is not how God works and thinks. Exactly. I don't believe this can be refuted with scripture. The limited atonement doctrine makes God out to be a respecter of persons, even though He is not, and it makes Him out to be someone who apparently is pleased with the idea of relatively few being saved (Matt 7:13-14).

Yet we see that He was grieved with mankind in Noah's day. Why be grieved over everything going exactly according to plan? That is, if it was God's plan all along for only 8 people to be saved at that time. I don't believe that is the case, though. Not at all. What kind of God would not give 99.9% of the world a chance to be saved? I think you said it well, "an evil God, a monster really, who sends people to hell on a lark while saving others randomly".

Eric

John146
Sep 24th 2008, 06:46 PM
Yes, Eric. These are those, who according to the verse must first have faith, and believe that He is, and they (those with faith, believing He is) are promised that He is a rewarder of them that [diligently] seek him. Who diligently seeks Him? Jo 6:44 No man can come to me.. Those who choose to seek Him. Yes, they must be drawn first. But Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32). But not all men are saved. So, what happens after men are drawn? They must respond to the drawing and the call. God sure does a lot of work to lead people to Himself, but that doesn't mean He does not require anything of us and does everything for us. People choose to resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51) and choose to not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thess 2:9). It's not God's desire for them to do that because He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).


We find "hearing" is necessay even in Isaiah.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Blessings,
RWHow does anything you said here or any of these scriptures negate the idea that people are capable of making the decision to seek God? Notice in Isaiah 55:3 God is telling them to "incline your ear, and come unto me". As is His custom, He gives man responsibility and doesn't just do everything for him/her. He draws people and gives them the gospel but then He requires a willful response.

RogerW
Sep 24th 2008, 11:16 PM
Those who choose to seek Him. Yes, they must be drawn first. But Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32). But not all men are saved. So, what happens after men are drawn? They must respond to the drawing and the call. God sure does a lot of work to lead people to Himself, but that doesn't mean He does not require anything of us and does everything for us. People choose to resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51) and choose to not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thess 2:9). It's not God's desire for them to do that because He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

How does anything you said here or any of these scriptures negate the idea that people are capable of making the decision to seek God? Notice in Isaiah 55:3 God is telling them to "incline your ear, and come unto me". As is His custom, He gives man responsibility and doesn't just do everything for him/her. He draws people and gives them the gospel but then He requires a willful response.

We can appear to be seeking until the cows come home, but unless we are given ears to hear the Lord, we will not believe. Every man can hear the gospel of salvation with physical hearing. But only His sheep are given to "hear His voice", and these He calls by name. If we are not one of His sheep we will not hear His voice and believe.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Blessings,
RW