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always
Sep 19th 2008, 02:19 PM
Before Jesus returns the USA will not be a defender Israel?

Today Israel has one ally who guarantees their security, the United States.

Pressure is growing for Israel to make peace and give back the Temple Mount and make Jerusalem an international city. Israel rejects these suggestions for peace from the world community.

The world views peace between Israel and its Muslim neighbors as the key to world peace. This creates serious problems for Israel.

The prophets of Israel foretold great struggles over Jerusalem involving the nations of the world.

Over 3 billion of the Earth’s 6 plus billion population have a spiritual connection with Jerusalem. The Catholics are 1 billion, 1 billion Protestants, 1.3 billion Muslims and 20 million Jews.


Zech 12:3 “And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

Steps
Sep 19th 2008, 02:27 PM
I don't about America, but I sure will, till my dying day. Its in my best interest, you see.

Am not a Jew. Am Nigerian, see. But I pray for Israel everyday.

always
Sep 19th 2008, 02:46 PM
Steps, I thank God for Israel, if it had not been for their eyes being closed for a season, I would have been lost. I speak no harm and have no ill will against Israel, they are God's chosen people.

I do believe the enemy from the East (maybe China) and the enemy from the West (Russia?) will march against them, and the USA will not be there to defend them, because of political or financial reasons (I don't know) but they will be saved by the Messiah for the whole world to see, and they will recognize HIM and bow every knee as well

Literalist-Luke
Sep 19th 2008, 03:39 PM
The Bible is quite clear that, in the end, every nation on earth will come against Israel at Armageddon. There are no exceptions listed. Sadly, that will include the United States, or whatever is left of us by that time. Evidently, we will have a policy change on Israel at some point in the future - it's inevitable.

always
Sep 19th 2008, 03:52 PM
The Bible is quite clear that, in the end, every nation on earth will come against Israel at Armageddon. There are no exceptions listed. Sadly, that will include the United States, or whatever is left of us by that time. Evidently, we will have a policy change on Israel at some point in the future - it's inevitable.


exactly! I from the scriptures percieve that the US will not be a world power at the endtimes or at least a significant one.

Talking about mixed emotions.... I count it joy at the coming of our Lord.

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 05:49 PM
America probably always will defend Israel, even unto our own deaths. We are already their client-state, but we are turning even more and more so every election.

Jerusalem could be incinerated by a nuclear weapon, the America's in the world could step up and retaliate against whoever did it, and Armageddon would result--and the whole thing would be very much consistent with Scripture.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 05:52 PM
America probably always will defend Israel, even unto our own deaths. We are already their client-state, but we are turning even more and more so every election.

Jerusalem could be incinerated by a nuclear weapon, the America's in the world could step up and retaliate against whoever did it, and Armageddon would result--and the whole thing would be very much consistent with Scripture.

Wow, that's a pretty anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic attitude. To say that we're Israeli's client state is to say that Jews run the government.

Even if what you say is true (and it's not, it's just anti-Semitic propaganda) it'd be an honor to die for Israel.

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 06:01 PM
Wow, that's a pretty anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic attitude. To say that we're Israeli's client state is to say that Jews run the government.Anti-semitic? No. I very much advocate the human rights of semitic peoples. Anti-Zionist? You better believe I am. And I am in solidarity with several Jews on the matter, without apology.
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

As far as Jews running the government, obviously I didn't imply that Jews run the government. I implied Israel runs the goverment. You are falsely playing the race card (on multiple levels) on a political issue. Don't take it from me, though, take it straight from someone else whom everybody adores:


Every time we do something, you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it. -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon October 3, 2001 (IAP News)

Buzzword
Sep 20th 2008, 06:05 PM
I hope not.
It's getting old defending a nation not my own that half the world wants to nuke.

markedward
Sep 20th 2008, 06:18 PM
apothanein,

What's wrong with being "anti-Zionist"?


I do believe the enemy from the East (maybe China) and the enemy from the West (Russia?)Russia is hardly to the west of Israel.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 06:20 PM
Simple - to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-God.

Tanya~
Sep 20th 2008, 06:24 PM
Always,

I agree with you, I think in order for the prophecies to take place, the US will not be able to defend Israel as we have been able to previously. For now the surrounding nations don't try to destroy Israel because they know the US will help and we are a formidable ally. But it could come to the point where we are just struggling to defend ourselves against those same enemies. At that time, the enemies of Israel will be emboldened to do what they've been saying they have wanted to do for a long time -- drive Israel into the sea. We have to be out of the picture because God is the one who will save her.

Joel 3:9-21

9 Proclaim this among the nations:"Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, 'I am strong.'"
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD.
12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow — For their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16 The LORD also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the LORD will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.
17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again."
18 God Blesses His People
And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
The hills shall flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD
And water the Valley of Acacias.

19 "Egypt shall be a desolation,
And Edom a desolate wilderness,
Because of violence against the people of Judah,
For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed,
whom I had not acquitted;
For the LORD dwells in Zion."
NKJV

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 06:34 PM
Always,

I agree with you, I think in order for the prophecies to take place, the US will not be able to defend Israel as we have been able to previously. For now the surrounding nations don't try to destroy Israel because they know the US will help and we are a formidable ally. But it could come to the point where we are just struggling to defend ourselves against those same enemies. At that time, the enemies of Israel will be emboldened to do what they've been saying they have wanted to do for a long time -- drive Israel into the sea. We have to be out of the picture because God is the one who will save her.

Joel 3:9-21

9 Proclaim this among the nations:"Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, 'I am strong.'"
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD.
12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow — For their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16 The LORD also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the LORD will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.
17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again."
18 God Blesses His People
And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
The hills shall flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD
And water the Valley of Acacias.

19 "Egypt shall be a desolation,
And Edom a desolate wilderness,
Because of violence against the people of Judah,
For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed,
whom I had not acquitted;
For the LORD dwells in Zion."
NKJV

I wonder if one other way to answer the OP is to ask if we said that America will be a non-factor for these prophecies?

I just hate to think of an America that doesn't support Israel.

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 06:38 PM
Simple - to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-God.


You got it backwards: to be Zionist is to be pro-Satan.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 06:39 PM
You got it backwards: to be Zionist is to be pro-Satan.

How so? Satan set up a covenant with the Jews?

Last time I checked, God is the one that established the covenant with the Jews. Why are you calling God Satan? Why do you believe God is evil?

Tanya~
Sep 20th 2008, 06:45 PM
I just hate to think of an America that doesn't support Israel.

I do too. I think America will always support Israel (unless a new administration arises that will not, which is entirely possible). But it looks like America is moving toward a position that could seriously reduce our ability to defend Israel. In other words, with economic collapse comes a significantly reduced ability to financially support any kind of action that would serve to deter Israel's enemies from carrying out their wishes.

Our nation is in a stage of accelerated decline and appears to be headed for collapse. That's how it looks to me. :( God Himself will deliver Israel. We need to pray.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 06:49 PM
I do too. I think America will always support Israel (unless a new administration arises that will not, which is entirely possible). But it looks like America is moving toward a position that could seriously reduce our ability to defend Israel. In other words, with economic collapse comes a significantly reduced ability to financially support any kind of action that would serve to deter Israel's enemies from carrying out their wishes.

Our nation is in a stage of accelerated decline and appears to be headed for collapse. That's how it looks to me. :( God Himself will deliver Israel. We need to pray.

Well that's more of the direction I was going. I just think we'll be too irrelevant to defend Israel. Then again, we're looking at our present circumstances - who knows, in 20 years we could be richer than we ever imagine. :)

Tanya~
Sep 20th 2008, 06:54 PM
who knows, in 20 years we could be richer than we ever imagine. :)

LOL well that would be nice. However, have you noticed the economic situation lately?

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 06:57 PM
LOL well that would be nice. However, have you noticed the economic situation lately?

I have (my dad's company deals with bankruptcy law...since 2006 all I've heard him talk about is how there was an economic collapse coming, now all I'm hearing him say is, "I told you so!"). I'm also sure people in 1930 recognized their financial situation. If you would have told them that in 1950 America would be the most prosperous nation in the world with almost everyone owning a house and a car, they would have scoffed.

Unfortunately, what I DO see in America is a growing resentment of Israel. Just 5 years ago is was (rightfully) taboo to blame our problems on Israel. Now it's becoming common place.

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 07:01 PM
How so? Satan set up a covenant with the Jews?

Last time I checked, God is the one that established the covenant with the Jews. Why are you calling God Satan? Why do you believe God is evil?

Do you even know what Zionism is? You keep equating Zionism with Jews, and Israel with Jews. And what's this nonsense about calling God Satan? You have no clue what you are talking about. Sorry, I don't know any other way to put it.

Tanya~
Sep 20th 2008, 07:05 PM
I don't hear a lot of blame on Israel about our economic problems, but I'm sure there are people who think it is their fault :rolleyes:.

The current economic problem though is much more serious than what led up to the crash in 1929, partly because the government is going to prop up the market even while everything erodes beneath it. Part of the reason we recovered from 29 was because things corrected on their own. Our nation was financially independent. The money ran out and we dealt with it. These things aren't the case today and will make all the difference. The money has run out but we keep on spending. It really makes no sense!

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 07:06 PM
Do you even know what Zionism is? You keep equating Zionism with Jews, and Israel with Jews. And what's this nonsense about calling God Satan? You have no clue what you are talking about. Sorry, I don't know any other way to put it.


Right, a Jew doesn't know a thing about Jews. :rolleyes:

Zionism - as I mean it - is the establishment and preservation of Israel as a physical nation with borders. Any other definition would be suspect.

To be against a physical Israel, a state of Israel, an Israeli government, is to be against God. I meant what I said and I clearly know what I'm talking about.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 07:07 PM
I don't hear a lot of blame on Israel about our economic problems, but I'm sure there are people who think it is their fault :rolleyes:.

The current economic problem though is much more serious than what led up to the crash in 1929, partly because the government is going to prop up the market even while everything erodes beneath it. Part of the reason we recovered from 29 was because things corrected on their own. Our nation was financially independent. The money ran out and we dealt with it. These things aren't the case today and will make all the difference. The money has run out but we keep on spending. It really makes no sense!

That's the analysis my dad has given. He said the best thing we could do is let it collapse, go through the hard time, and let the situation correct itself. It'd be hard, but it's better than what we're setting ourself up for.


Anyway, a lot of people blame Israel for our foreign policy. Look at this thread. :)

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 07:12 PM
To be against a physical Israel, a state of Israel, an Israeli government, is to be against God. I meant what I said and I clearly know what I'm talking about.

That says a lot about who your god is.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 07:14 PM
That says a lot about who your god is.

Right, my God is the God of Israel.

I guess I'm no longer a Christian because I don't jettison the OT and know how to do a proper hermeneutical study of the NT?

If you want to hate the Jews, be my guest, but don't pass it off as Christian theology.

TrustingFollower
Sep 20th 2008, 07:55 PM
OK everyone need to play nice. Speculation and personal insults will be deleted. Please be nice and back up any accusations you make.

scourge39
Sep 20th 2008, 09:28 PM
Right, my God is the God of Israel.

I guess I'm no longer a Christian because I don't jettison the OT and know how to do a proper hermeneutical study of the NT?

If you want to hate the Jews, be my guest, but don't pass it off as Christian theology.

Let me ask you this, and answer as honestly as you can, is it the person and work of Jesus Christ or national Israel who is the central figure in all of Scripture?

markedward
Sep 20th 2008, 10:06 PM
apothanein,

You're making a number of fallacies in your argument against "anti-Zionism."

1. You're equating "Zionism," a political (and mostly secular) movement, with the race of the Jews. To be anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being anti-Semitic. Claiming people who are anti-Zionist "hate the Jews" is a blanket statement: there probably are people who hate the Jews that are anti-Zionists, but I'm surely not one of them. Anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism.

2. You claim that being "anti-Zionist" is the same thing as being "anti-God". How is this Biblically supported? Christ stated that His Kingdom is "not of this world," and that the Kingdom could not be said to be "over here" or "over there" (i.e., it's not in a singular place). In Galatians Paul made a distinction between "physical Israel" and "spiritual Israel," saying that "physical Israel" would be "cast out" and "spiritual Israel" would be the one to receive the inheritance. All in all, the NT strongly supports a spiritual Kingdom of God, not an earthly state confined to a single region.

3. Even aside from that, one of the major problems with Christians supporting Zionism is this: religious Zionists seek to turn Israel into a nation where Judaism is the state religion. They seek to help religious Zionists rebuild the temple. That means the Christians are helping a group of people build up a defiance against Christ's work on the cross. It's absolutely nonsensical for a Christian to say "I support Judaism! I want them to rebuild the temple! I want them to perform sacrifices that are obsolete [Hebrews 9-10] so they can continue to live their lives without Christ!"

I believe Jews are different from the world in that they have the OT, which should help them identify that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. And I believe that Jews should be able to feel safe in the world, just as any other person of any other race. But for you to claim I'm anti-Semitic and hate Jews for the sole reason I don't support the Zionist movement is pure slander.

always
Sep 20th 2008, 11:01 PM
I do too. I think America will always support Israel (unless a new administration arises that will not, which is entirely possible). But it looks like America is moving toward a position that could seriously reduce our ability to defend Israel.for collapse. That's how it looks to me. :( God Himself will deliver Israel. We need to pray.

Exactly Tanya

We won't be able to defend her

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 11:03 PM
Let me ask you this, and answer as honestly as you can, is it the person and work of Jesus Christ or national Israel who is the central figure in all of Scripture?

Well, it's a fallacious question. Just because Christ is the central figure doesn't mean Israel as a nation is no longer chosen. It's both/and.


1. You're equating "Zionism," a political (and mostly secular) movement, with the race of the Jews. To be anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being anti-Semitic. Claiming people who are anti-Zionist "hate the Jews" is a blanket statement: there probably are people who hate the Jews that are anti-Zionists, but I'm surely not one of them. Anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism.

Not always (though I believe with some on this thread it most certainly is - saying the Jews were involved in 9/11 is a pretty big charge).

At the same time, the implications of anti-Zionism are anti-Semitism. Name one nation - other than the US - where Jews have been allowed to prosper free of persecution. Fact is, there isn't one. They're hated everywhere they go (America and Canada are anomalies).

Thus, to say "The Jews don't deserve a home of their own" is the equivalent to saying, "The Jews deserve to face persecution world-wide." That's why Anti-Zionism is properly equated to anti-semitism.


2. You claim that being "anti-Zionist" is the same thing as being "anti-God". How is this Biblically supported? Christ stated that His Kingdom is "not of this world," and that the Kingdom could not be said to be "over here" or "over there" (i.e., it's not in a singular place). In Galatians Paul made a distinction between "physical Israel" and "spiritual Israel," saying that "physical Israel" would be "cast out" and "spiritual Israel" would be the one to receive the inheritance. All in all, the NT strongly supports a spiritual Kingdom of God, not an earthly state confined to a single region.

This too is early Christian anti-semitism seeping into the Church. Paul was speaking about the covenant of circumcision passing away - he wasn't saying the nation itself has passed away. This, of course, would create multiple problems and contradictions with other passages of Scripture. We have Paul in Romans 9-12 saying that Israel is still chosen and hasn't been "cast out." It hasn't been replaced. Likewise, we have multiple OT passages referring to the re-establishment of a governmental Israel.

I wrote an essay that deals somewhat with it, but every single time I've posted a link no one has taken the challenge to respond to it (granted it is 50 pages and the first part deals with anti-semitism).


3. Even aside from that, one of the major problems with Christians supporting Zionism is this: religious Zionists seek to turn Israel into a nation where Judaism is the state religion. They seek to help religious Zionists rebuild the temple. That means the Christians are helping a group of people build up a defiance against Christ's work on the cross. It's absolutely nonsensical for a Christian to say "I support Judaism! I want them to rebuild the temple! I want them to perform sacrifices that are obsolete [Hebrews 9-10] so they can continue to live their lives without Christ!"

Here you have the differentiation between secular Zionism and religious Zionism. If you'll notice, I said I had no problem with creating a Jewish (ethnically) state. Of course I have a problem with the rabid requirement that one be a practicing Jew to be a citizen. Then again - can you blame them?

Secondly, I don't know of a single person in Judaism that cares about rebuilding the temple, other than the radicals. Most Jews, however, believe the sacrificial system has been done away with. Almost all of Judaism has come down from the Pharisaical system of Judaism where works - not sacrifice - was emphasized. Rebuilding the temple just isn't a priority. I guess what I'm asking is for you to substantiate your claim.


I believe Jews are different from the world in that they have the OT, which should help them identify that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. And I believe that Jews should be able to feel safe in the world, just as any other person of any other race. But for you to claim I'm anti-Semitic and hate Jews for the sole reason I don't support the Zionist movement is pure slander.

And calling it slander is hyperbole. ;)

I guess what it boils down to is this; what do you mean by "zionism?" I'm referring purely to the secular movement of securing the Jews their traditional homeland as a safe haven for Jews worldwide. I support protecting this piece of land (the only true Democracy in the Middle East by the way...and one that does act as a buffer) at all costs (mainly because of the people that inhabit the land).

When I hear people say, "We shouldn't do a thing for Israel" I hear them saying, "We shouldn't do a thing for the 6 million Jews over there." Israel holds almost half the Jewish population in the world - this is why anti-Zionism is equated with anti-semitism (see my first paragraph).

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 11:05 PM
Exactly Tanya

We won't be able to defend her

Which is unfortunate.

But I would digress and ask if we've ever actually defended her. We have the 6 Day War where Israel fought off 6 armies and gained air superiority within an hour (with all those nations being Russian backed). Even the Jewish War for Independence (1948-1949) they had to fight against 5 armies...and won. They also won the Yom Kippur war as well.

In all these circumstances the US offered logistical support, but that's about it. I think most of the support came from God. Thankfully, He'll never not be able to stop helping them. :)

scourge39
Sep 20th 2008, 11:14 PM
Well, it's a fallacious question. Just because Christ is the central figure doesn't mean Israel as a nation is no longer chosen. It's both/and.

If indeed the answer is both/and as you assert, than why did Jesus say this?:

11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12, NIV)

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 11:16 PM
If indeed the answer is both/and as you assert, than why did Jesus say this?:

11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12, NIV)

Again, you're creating a false question. It's not "either/or." It's not, "because Jesus is the central figure, physical Israel doesn't matter." That's fallacious by being non-sequitur. I'm saying that Jesus is the central figure of the Bible, but physical Israel still matters and still exists. I'm basically saying your question is irrelevant.

It's both "Jesus is the central figure" and "Israel as a nation still has a chosen purpose."

always
Sep 20th 2008, 11:18 PM
If indeed the answer is both/and as you assert, than why did Jesus say this?:

11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12, NIV)

he said this meaning that we as gentiles that are grafted in will have the same rights as his chosen, and they will have to come just as we came through Jesus, and if not they will perish as well.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 11:22 PM
he said this meaning that we as gentiles that are grafted in will have the same rights as his chosen, and they will have to come just as we came through Jesus, and if not they will perish as well.

Exactly. I'd take it a step further to say that the Jews - as a whole - were never saved because of their race. They were never chosen to be the exclusive race for salvation (as evidenced by righteous Gentiles in the OT). Their purpose was and is completely different than that of the Church's. The Church simply couldn't serve as an adequate replacement for Israel as a nation or as a people because the two have different purposes.

The lostness of the Jewish nation doesn't speak against its status as having a purpose by God.

scourge39
Sep 20th 2008, 11:39 PM
he said this meaning that we as gentiles that are grafted in will have the same rights as his chosen, and they will have to come just as we came through Jesus, and if not they will perish as well.

Then, doesn't that logic do damage to your dispensational understanding of Romans 11:25-26? Paul is certainly stating that 'all Israel will be saved' as an absolute future certainty. Obviously, if some Jews are cast out as Jesus says they will be, there's no possible way that all of ethnic Israel can in fact be saved. Even if one posits that Paul refers to all of ethnic Israel at the time of the Second Coming being saved, that interpretation still contradicts what Jesus says about a future casting out of some Jews because of unbelief. His declaration displays as much certainty as that of Paul. How ought one understand Paul's assertion that 'all Israel will be saved'? Shouldn't he have said 'many,' 'most,' or 'some' instead of 'all'?

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 11:41 PM
What happened to America defending against world hunger? We throw free taxpayer money away every year for Israel to get shiny new F-16's to terrorize the residents in Gaza. That's $200 million a pop, for ONE plane. You know how much that good that could do feeding the hungry in Rwanda just to give up one plane??

That's one of my biggest beefs about this whole "America defending Israel" thing. It's actually racism the OTHER direction. It says that the Zionist Jewish people are more important than anyone else.

scourge39
Sep 20th 2008, 11:48 PM
That's one of my biggest beefs about this whole "America defending Israel" thing. It's actually racism the OTHER direction. It says that the Zionist Jewish people are more important than anyone else.

That's exactly what Dispensationalists would say. If you want to read an excellent historical account of how it all began, I highly recommend Timothy P. Weber's book, On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend. It deals with Zionism in great detail.

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 11:56 PM
Oh no, friend, I am *WELL* aware of Israel's history. And I hope as many Christians as possible become aware of it. If they only knew.... That's exactly how these guys feel: http://www.ifamericansknew.com/

Anyway, one reading I suggest is "One Nation Under Israel", by Andrew Hurley, published by Truth Press (they're Christian). It deals with the American-Israeli lobby. Actually, I think you can still get that book for free from my friend at whtt.org (also Christian).

markedward
Sep 20th 2008, 11:59 PM
Thus, to say "The Jews don't deserve a home of their own" is the equivalent to saying, "The Jews deserve to face persecution world-wide." That's why Anti-Zionism is properly equated to anti-semitism.I did not say "the Jews don't deserve a home of their own."

I did, in fact, say that they should be able to feel safe (the exact opposite of you claiming I implied that Jews "deserve to face persecution) in the world just as anyone else should be able to. If a Jew's home is in Germany, or America, or China, or wherever, I think that they, as a human being, should be able to live there without fear.

You are falsely claiming that the hatred (you did specifically use the word "hate") of a race of people is the same thing as disagreement with a political movement or a religious movement that concerns them.


Likewise, we have multiple OT passages referring to the re-establishment of a governmental Israel.Written during the Babylonian Exile, no less...


And calling it slander is hyperbole.No it's not. You were, case in point, calling me racist and anti-theist.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2008, 12:04 AM
Anti-Zionist? You better believe I am. And I am in solidarity with several Jews on the matter, without apology.
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

There are about 200 of these guys. Out of 13 million Jews. They speak only for themselves.


Every time we do something, you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it. -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon October 3, 2001 (IAP News)This is a lie. It was never said.

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 12:08 AM
There are about 200 of these guys. Out of 13 million Jews. They speak only for themselves.


I will quote straight from the top, front page of that website (jewsnotzionists.org):


Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm) and Neturei Karta. (http://www.nkusa.org/)

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

scourge39
Sep 21st 2008, 12:12 AM
Oh no, friend, I am *WELL* aware of Israel's history. And I hope as many Christians as possible become aware of it. If they only knew.... That's exactly how these guys feel: http://www.ifamericansknew.com/



Anyway, one reading I suggest is "One Nation Under Israel", by Andrew Hurley, published by Truth Press (they're Christian). It deals with the American-Israeli lobby. Actually, I think you can still get that book for free from my friend at whtt.org (also Christian).

Israelis have committed equally heinous attrocities as the Arabs, yet they're treated as somehow untouchable in the eyes of most North American believers. Most are atheists or only nominal Jews at best in terms of their religious practices. My brother-in-law, a Messianic Jew, will vouch for that. National Israel served as the conduit for the Messianic bloodline. That's the sense in which they were 'chosen.' Now that Christ has come, they are obligated to receive him just like everyone else. I simultaneously laugh and shake my head in disbelief at Pat Robertson and other Dispys who tone down their Christian declarations when in the presence of Jews so they won't get offended. That's the very thing that Jesus and Paul DID NOT do in response to Jewish unbelief.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2008, 12:14 AM
Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm) and Neturei Karta. (http://www.nkusa.org/)

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.This simply not true.


No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.Well, 99.9% of religious Jews see the matter differently.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 21st 2008, 12:18 AM
Then, doesn't that logic do damage to your dispensational understanding of Romans 11:25-26? Paul is certainly stating that 'all Israel will be saved' as an absolute future certainty. Obviously, if some Jews are cast out as Jesus says they will be, there's no possible way that all of ethnic Israel can in fact be saved. Even if one posits that Paul refers to all of ethnic Israel at the time of the Second Coming being saved, that interpretation still contradicts what Jesus says about a future casting out of some Jews because of unbelief. His declaration displays as much certainty as that of Paul. How ought one understand Paul's assertion that 'all Israel will be saved'? Shouldn't he have said 'many,' 'most,' or 'some' instead of 'all'?

The "all" doesn't mean "all" (as is usually the case in the Bible). As I stated, I am more than willing to offer an article to this issue if you're willing to read it.

Likewise, I'm not a dispensationalist.



What happened to America defending against world hunger? We throw free taxpayer money away every year for Israel to get shiny new F-16's to terrorize the residents in Gaza. That's $200 million a pop, for ONE plane. You know how much that good that could do feeding the hungry in Rwanda just to give up one plane??


When did America ever defend the world against hunger? At what point in our history was this our mission?

Secondly, you think Israel isn't buying those jets from us? Third, they're producing their own version of the F-16 and are becoming less and less dependent upon US technology. Fourth, they're not "terrorizing" anyone - they're attacking terrorists. Get it right.


Oh no, friend, I am *WELL* aware of Israel's history.

Your version of Israel is more in sync with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion than it is with actual modern Israeli history though....



I did not say "the Jews don't deserve a home of their own."

I did, in fact, say that they should be able to feel safe (the exact opposite of you claiming I implied that Jews "deserve to face persecution) in the world just as anyone else should be able to. If a Jew's home is in Germany, or America, or China, or wherever, I think that they, as a human being, should be able to live there without fear.

That's what secular Zionism teaches though - the Jews deserve their traditional homeland as a safe haven. Having a Jewish safe haven in Europe wouldn't make sense considering Europe is where the Jews have traditionally faced all their problems. A nation could easily invade a European Jewish state.

The reason Judea was given to the Jews is because it was practically swamp and hardly inhabited in 1948 (that and it belongs to them via God's covenant with them).


Written during the Babylonian Exile, no less...

...but not all of them. Secondly, the type of government and return they refer to speaks of the 12 tribes. The Babylonian exile only concerned two of the twelve tribes. So your analysis fails.


No it's not. You were, case in point, calling me racist and anti-theist.

If you're against the modern state of Israel then it's a statement of fact - that's not slander. :)

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 12:18 AM
This simply not true.

I don't believe you.





No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.
Well, 99.9% of religious Jews see the matter differently.


I think that might have a little teensy bit, in small part, to do with a Holocaust that killed off 6 million non-Zionist Jews. Well that and, Zionist Jews such as Rudolf Kastner and his organization who turned in their Jewish brothers in to be slaughtered at the concentration camps--in exchange, of course, for the Nazis letting them flee to Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner

markedward
Sep 21st 2008, 01:43 AM
If you're against the modern state of Israel then it's a statement of fact - that's not slander. :)But you cannot equate "anti-Zionism" with racism towards the Jews.

And you cannot equate "anti-Zionism" with "anti-God."

But you did. You slandered me by claiming I was racist (specifically anti-Semitic) and anti-God on the sole basis that I disagree with the political movement of Zionism and religious Zionism.

IMINXTC
Sep 21st 2008, 01:59 AM
Many of the old-timers believe the US is referred to in Ez 38:13 during the Assault of Gog and Magog, as the "young lions," (descendants of the Anglo Saxons?) Whole nother study.

But even if this is true, it would mean that the US has lost its power and influence by that time.

scourge39
Sep 21st 2008, 02:06 AM
Dispensationalists are hilarious! Please tell me what linguistic clues in Ezekiel 38 demand that those prophecies absolutely have to refer to events in the DISTANT future. You really need to approach the text with a tremendous amount of preunderstanding and preconceived notions in order to arrive at that interpretation. You folks start with your assumptions about Israel and read them into Ezekiel. The text itself is hardly your starting point. I guarantee you that if someone with no exposure to your hermeneutic were stranded on an island for one year with a Bible and told to study it at face value with no commentaries, study notes, etc., I guarantee that they would not arrive at an interpretation that looks even remotely like the Dispensational view.

always
Sep 21st 2008, 02:08 AM
The "all" doesn't mean "all" (as is usually the case in the Bible). As I stated, I am more than willing to offer an article to this issue if you're willing to read it.

:)


On this I agree with a.k. exactly

always
Sep 21st 2008, 02:09 AM
Many of the old-timers believe the US is referred to in Ez 38:13 during the Assault of Gog and Magog, as the "young lions," (descendants of the Anglo Saxons?) Whole nother study.

But even if this is true, it would mean that the US has lost its power and influence by that time.

More and more you see things pointing to this conclusion, we will simply not be that significant power in the last days

scourge39
Sep 21st 2008, 02:20 AM
The "all" doesn't mean "all" (as is usually the case in the Bible). As I stated, I am more than willing to offer an article to this issue if you're willing to read it.

Likewise, I'm not a dispensationalist.

I fully understand the various meanings of 'all' in the passage. I just wanted to know what view you ascribe to personally. As for your last statement, you could've fooled me. Even historic premils wouldn't agree with your earlier statements about Israel. Why are you so pro-Zionism then? Are you progressive dispy like Darrel Bock and Robert Saucy?

apothanein kerdos
Sep 21st 2008, 02:41 AM
I fully understand the various meanings of 'all' in the passage. I just wanted to know what view you ascribe to personally. As for your last statement, you could've fooled me. Even historic premils wouldn't agree with your earlier statements about Israel. Why are you so pro-Zionism then? Are you progressive dispy like Darrel Bock and Robert Saucy?

No, I actually would fall into the covenant eschatology if it weren't for my views on Israel. Unfortunately for you, you're not going to be able to fit me into a nice little box on this issue - I'm not a Dispensationalist or a Covenantalist. I've provided a link to an essay that explains my view - if you really want to know where I stand, you could read it.

I'm unique in my view, however - my eschatology has nothing to do with my view of Israel. It's a proper hermeneutical reading of the New Testament along with the old. Both Dispensationalist and Covenantalists read the OT incorrectly, which in turn leads to an improper understanding of the purpose of the Jews in the NT.

Here (http://jborofsky.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/christianity-and-the-hebrewsdoc.pdf) is an essay that deals with the issue and explains my view. Since it's sub-sectioned you can avoid the parts on anti-semitism and deal primarily with a proper understanding of the Jews.

My view of the Jewish people could be misconstrued as Dispensationalism, but it's not. I don't believe God changes His covenant or how people are saved - I simply believe that, for His glory, he has predestined more Jews to come to Him at a point in the future (in order to fulfill His covenant with them). For now, He has chosen more Gentiles. This isn't necessarily a dispensation because we're saved the same way people were before Christ, but it does deal with God's election.

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 03:13 AM
Are you progressive dispy like Darrel Bock and Robert Saucy?

I actually think progressive dispy is a respectable attempt at rectifying the seeming contradictions between the OT and NT. If I remember correctly, though, progressive disp. has no need for an "Israel" to be established BEFORE Christ's return, though.

This actually agrees with traditional, pre-WW2 Judaism--they believe Israel has to be established AFTER Messiah comes. Based on my reading of OT alone, I think they're right:



Micah 5

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times. " 3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

scourge39
Sep 21st 2008, 05:58 AM
I actually think progressive dispy is a respectable attempt at rectifying the seeming contradictions between the OT and NT. If I remember correctly, though, progressive disp. has no need for an "Israel" to be established BEFORE Christ's return, though.

This actually agrees with traditional, pre-WW2 Judaism--they believe Israel has to be established AFTER Messiah comes. Based on my reading of OT alone, I think they're right:

Southern Baptist OT scholar, George L. Klein, takes a progressive dispy view in his recent Zechariah volume in the New American Commentary. I was initially afraid that it would be classical dispy like the Ezekiel and Daniel volumes in the series since Klein is a DTS graduate, but it's not like that at all. I was pleasantly surprised at its exegetical thoroughness. It's the best Evangelical Ezekiel commentary currently available. Some more detailed Ezekiel commentaries are planned, but for now, Klein is awesome. It's a welcome addition to my commentary collection. Progressive Dispensationalism is a much better alternative to the Walvoordian classical dispy view. I wish more DTS folk would move in the progressive direction.

I was very disappointed with the exegesis of Ephesians 2 in Harold Hoehner's commentary. The amount of circular reasoning and eisegesis he uses to maintain his Dispy bias is unbecoming of anyone who considers themself to be a scholar. The beauty of Hoehner's commentary is its thorough treatment of other views, but his position on Ephesians 2 requires that the Greek text carry more exegetical weight than the language itself allows. He has produced the most exhaustive exegesis of Ephesians currently available in English, despite his bias.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2008, 01:15 PM
I don't believe you.
I don't care what you believe.

I deal with the Jewish community every day. And you have- a website.

These guys are so 'common' and 'mainstream', that when one of them went to Iran and kissed Ahmadenejad, he returned home to find out he was excommunicated, kicked out of synagogue, his son was expelled from his Yeshivah, and his wife filed for divorce.





I think that might have a little teensy bit, in small part, to do with a Holocaust that killed off 6 million non-Zionist Jews. And you know they were non-Zionist how, exactly?


Well that and, Zionist Jews such as Rudolf Kastner and his organization who turned in their Jewish brothers in to be slaughtered at the concentration camps--in exchange, of course, for the Nazis letting them flee to Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner

The article says nothing of the sort. But since you don't think much of Jews I guess you'll see what you want to see...

Fenris
Sep 21st 2008, 01:17 PM
But you cannot equate "anti-Zionism" with racism towards the Jews.
Well, why is it that the Jews are not entitled to self-determination?

tgallison
Sep 21st 2008, 10:23 PM
Before Jesus returns the USA will not be a defender Israel?

Today Israel has one ally who guarantees their security, the United States.

Pressure is growing for Israel to make peace and give back the Temple Mount and make Jerusalem an international city. Israel rejects these suggestions for peace from the world community.

The world views peace between Israel and its Muslim neighbors as the key to world peace. This creates serious problems for Israel.

The prophets of Israel foretold great struggles over Jerusalem involving the nations of the world.

Over 3 billion of the Earth’s 6 plus billion population have a spiritual connection with Jerusalem. The Catholics are 1 billion, 1 billion Protestants, 1.3 billion Muslims and 20 million Jews.


Zech 12:3 “And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

God is the defender of Israel. God has blessed the USA, and used us as a defender of Israel.

The question should be, will we turn from God, and the obvious answer is, we already have begun.

For those that think God is finished with Israel, Paul has an answer.

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

IMINXTC
Sep 21st 2008, 11:36 PM
I think its very telling that there is virtually no difference in either the Dems or Reps stand on the division of Jerusalem. The pressure in on.

WorldNetDaily September 21,2008

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=73428

I'm not a dispy. But once Jerusalem is divided, how do you put it back together again, in this present age? And why would the US pressure Israel on this at this time? And why so little press on the subject?

always
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:05 PM
I think its very telling that there is virtually no difference in either the Dems or Reps stand on the division of Jerusalem. The pressure in on.

WorldNetDaily September 21,2008

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=73428

I'm not a dispy. But once Jerusalem is divided, how do you put it back together again, in this present age? And why would the US pressure Israel on this at this time? And why so little press on the subject?


Because our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This agenda is a spiritual one, and yes as the previous poster stated when the full number of Gentiles have come in, Israel's eyes will be wide open.

They will be divided the same as they were before, ones will accept Jesus as some have already (Messianics) and some will not, just as we Gentiles.