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Liv
Sep 20th 2008, 05:23 AM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?

crossnote
Sep 20th 2008, 05:50 AM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?

I dabbled in that sort of thing for a while, especially in the area of Greek thought vs. Hebrew thought. As far as the practices etc. go those are fine but just never let them eclipse the more sure Word that we have in the revelation of Christ for whom most of the rites and Holy Days etc, were but shadows.


ESV Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Liv
Sep 20th 2008, 06:03 AM
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want it to turn into just going through the motions. I would want to do it for the purpose of making praising God an even more integral part of my life.

SIG
Sep 20th 2008, 07:18 AM
I have a feeling this could turn into a long thread...:lol:

Ethnikos
Sep 20th 2008, 09:24 AM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?
This may seem really harsh but no.
No, meaning no, as in do not do it.
Read a book or a whole pile of books if you want to understand something.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that would be applicable to Christians, as an observance, would be the Sabbath. I studied under a great Rabbi who told me that the holiest day of the year is the Sabbath, meaning the one that falls on every week.
So why go to Jews to learn things when the most important thing you could get from them is already part of Christianity?

valleybldr
Sep 20th 2008, 11:43 AM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do? Is physical freedom and freedom in Messiah a Jewish concept? Is physical rest and rest in Messiah a Jewish concept? Is physical peace/prosperity and peace/prosperity under the reign of Messiah a Jewish concept?

There, I gave three (or 6;)) reasons why I love to celebrate Pesach, Shabbat and Succcot. I don't want to miss a "date" with my Lover and I'm sorry so many have been turned against the things designed for everyone's blessing thinking they are exclusively for the "Jews."

todd

Kahtar
Sep 20th 2008, 01:19 PM
Many people think that if you observe those things, you are putting yourself back under the law. That is not true, necessarily.
To put yourself back under the law means that you are trying to use the law to earn your salvation.
It is entirely possible, and okay, to observe those things purely from a learning, worshipping perspective.
Here is what Paul said about it:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 KJV)

We should not let anyone judge us if we desire to keep a particular day holy, whether it be a Sunday, or a Saturday, or a feast day, or even the new moon. All of these are shadows that teach us about Christ, and it is a GOOD thing to learn about Christ.
Given the choice between worshipping God on a pagan holiday, or on a day that GOD chose as special, I'll take God's choice.

literaryjoe
Sep 20th 2008, 02:51 PM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?Liv, there are quite a lot of Christians who have incorporated "Jewish" holidays, traditions, practices, etc. into their lives as a matter of spiritual formation and worship. It can be a beautiful thing! There are even several on this board who do so; Studyin2Show, ACCM, BHS, and myself, just to name a few.

Many believers will challenge you that this is dangerous or unwise on the basis that you risk putting yourself back under the Law. Kahtar all ready addressed that idea accurately. Dallas Willard said it well, "Grace is opposed to earning, not to effort."

Keep in mind that the Jewish way of doing things is simply one tradition that has grown up over centuries of attempting to understand and live out the First Testament. Their tradition offers a wealth of helpful thoughts and ideas, but the Scriptures themselves ought to be your primary guide in any attempt to live like Jesus. The Christian tradition has a long history of attempting to put the commandments of God into practice as well, and you can find much of benefit as you study how believers over the centuries have struggled with how to adapt the practice of the Scriptures to their time and place.

I'm excited for you as you embark on this wild adventure of attempting to mold your walk to the biblical rhythms of life!

Emanate
Sep 20th 2008, 08:41 PM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?


Leviticus 23 speaks of these holidays. You should read it and find out the true ownership.

BroRog
Sep 20th 2008, 09:02 PM
I knew a man once who lived as a homeless man on purpose to see what it was like and to gain a better understanding of it from the point of view of the homeless.

Now he lives with his wife and kids in a house. Though he gained much by living as a homeless person, he doesn't recommend making it a permanent lifestyle.

threebigrocks
Sep 20th 2008, 09:02 PM
Many people think that if you observe those things, you are putting yourself back under the law. That is not true, necessarily.
To put yourself back under the law means that you are trying to use the law to earn your salvation.
It is entirely possible, and okay, to observe those things purely from a learning, worshipping perspective.
Here is what Paul said about it:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 KJV)

We should not let anyone judge us if we desire to keep a particular day holy, whether it be a Sunday, or a Saturday, or a feast day, or even the new moon. All of these are shadows that teach us about Christ, and it is a GOOD thing to learn about Christ.
Given the choice between worshipping God on a pagan holiday, or on a day that GOD chose as special, I'll take God's choice.


Why remain and celebrate a shadow when we've got the Light?

Galatians 3

1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?


How much effort will you put into learning, researching, preparing, carrying out what cannot save, what is but a shadow?

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 09:21 PM
I knew a man once who lived as a homeless man on purpose to see what it was like and to gain a better understanding of it from the point of view of the homeless.

I did that once, as part of a group. It was part of a missionary training exercise. Even so, we were all allowed to live inside a "shelter" and eat at the "soup kitchen". One lucky guy, though, chosen randomly, couldn't sleep in the shelter and couldn't eat there. He had to rely entirely on the charity of the rest of us homeless folk. He wound up faring the best of all of us--didn't miss a single meal.
:rofl:

Mograce2U
Sep 20th 2008, 09:30 PM
Is physical freedom and freedom in Messiah a Jewish concept? Is physical rest and rest in Messiah a Jewish concept? Is physical peace/prosperity and peace/prosperity under the reign of Messiah a Jewish concept?

There, I gave three (or 6;)) reasons why I love to celebrate Pesach, Shabbat and Succcot. I don't want to miss a "date" with my Lover and I'm sorry so many have been turned against the things designed for everyone's blessing thinking they are exclusively for the "Jews."

toddIs physical freedom from one's enemies and the freedom we have in Christ from the bondage of sin the same concept?

Is physically resting the flesh one day of the week in honor of creation the same concept as resting everyday in the finished work of our redemption by Christ thru faith?

Are earthly blessings the same as heavenly blessings? Or is having peace with our neighbor the same as our reconciliation to and peace with God?

Are the things which were given specifically to Israel and were removed with their temple, supposed to be for our blessing - we who began in the Spirit by the hearing of faith without any of those things? God is not dwelling in temples made with human hands because He has made it possible for us to have direct contact with the heavenly things and the Lord Himself - for which no tradition nor building can fully represent nor enhance our spiritual worship of the truth we have in Christ.

Saying your prayers in Hebrew is not any more beneficial in having them heard than praying in English. Nor does singing your songs of praise and thanksgiving to Jesus in Hebrew bring you in closer proximity to Him. But such things make us feel religious and is no doubt why we seek such things for our expression.

All the Lord wants is our heart. We can lift up our heart to Him whenever we feel impressed to do so. We needn't first light a candle or burn incense or any of the rest to come into His presence. The trappings of the Jewish religion were done away with because of where these things always leads - which was to put the emphasis on the things we do rather than upon the Lord alone.

But I suppose we will formulate some religion regardless for that is the nature of man who prefers to walk by sight rather than by faith. The trick is not to let it turn you to idolatry as it did the Jews who forsook the Lord while fervently defending their traditions. Notice too that when called to hear and to choose, they rejected the Lord and eternal life in favor of their traditions...

Richard H
Sep 20th 2008, 09:58 PM
This may seem really harsh but no.
No, meaning no, as in do not do it.
Read a book or a whole pile of books if you want to understand something.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that would be applicable to Christians, as an observance, would be the Sabbath. I studied under a great Rabbi who told me that the holiest day of the year is the Sabbath, meaning the one that falls on every week.
So why go to Jews to learn things when the most important thing you could get from them is already part of Christianity?

Hi Liv,
I am a Sabbath keeper (sun to sun) in the spirit of the law.
I do this not out of obligation. The Sabbath was created for man and not the other way around.

I totally agree with Ethnikos!

However, one might want to study (not keep) the feastivals as they pertain to particular fulfilments.

Richard

Liv
Sep 20th 2008, 10:06 PM
What about Messianic Jews? Would it be better for them to stop observing Jewish practices since they trust in Jesus?

petepet
Sep 20th 2008, 10:11 PM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?


Funnily enough I am a Christian and I have a book of 150 Israelite (not Jewish) prayers which I use. It is called the book of Psalms.

By all means learn Christin lessons from the Jewish feasts. But do not get tied up in them like most Jews do. They soon become a meaningless ritual and a burden. That is what Paul warned against.

And do recognise that any Hebrew you use is as little like Biblical Hebrew as your English is little like Chaucer's English which in its original you would probably not recognise. Modern Jews do not speak Biblical Hebrew. So do not kid yourself that you are really praying in Biblical Hebrew. By all means pray in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, French and English. But recognise that they are all the same to God. Any blessing will come from your heart being right with God, not from the language you use, which is irrelevant to God.

Richard H
Sep 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
What about Messianic Jews? Would it be better for them to stop observing Jewish practices since they trust in Jesus?

I know they keep the Sabbath and the customs like the feasts. They realize that they are not under the law - so I suppose there is a cultural attraction.

Liv
Sep 20th 2008, 10:31 PM
And do recognise that any Hebrew you use is as little like Biblical Hebrew as your English is little like Chaucer's English which in its original you would probably not recognise. Modern Jews do not speak Biblical Hebrew. So do not kid yourself that you are really praying in Biblical Hebrew.


I'm using videos of classes from a seminary posted on iTunes U to help me learn Hebrew. The class is called Biblical Hebrew. So I guess I'm not clear on what you mean here. Why wouldn't someone be able to learn Biblical Hebrew?

Kahtar
Sep 20th 2008, 11:20 PM
Why remain and celebrate a shadow when we've got the Light?
Why do you celebrate Christmas? You certainly weren't commanded to, and the Bible doesn't suggest it. You celebrate it because you think you are celebrating the birth of Christ. I celebrate the feast of Tabernacles because I am celebrating the birth of Christ, and because I am looking forward to the time that He is once again tabernacling with man on earth.
You celebrate Ishtar, I mean Easter, because you are celebrating the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? I celebrate Passover because Jesus was the Passover Lamb, and I celebrate Unleavened bread because Jesus Christ took my sin, and I celebrate firstfruit because Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the church.
I personally would rather celebrate those times that the Word speaks of, rather than the foolish traditions of man.


How much effort will you put into learning, researching, preparing, carrying out what cannot save, what is but a shadow?
I put alot of effort into learning about the shadows, because they point to the One Who CAN SAVE, and the more I learn about HIM the closer I draw to Him, and because all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: so that I may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Are you really going to imply that I am wasting my time doing so? Is that really where you want to go with this? I frankly am surprised at you. I would think a person in your position on this board would understand the value of studying scripture.
Are you really going to imply that I am putting myself 'under the law' by observing those things? My answer is this:
I will let no man, or woman, or moderator of message boards therefore judge me in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.
You worship your God in the way you want, on whatever day you want. You are free to do that. Who am I to judge you? I fully EXPECT YOU to afford me the same respect, moderator or otherwise.
And don't give me that 'putting myself under the law nonsense'. I am fully aware, and you should know by now (how long have you been on this board?) that I am, that the law does not save us, nor make us righteous. My salvation and my righteousness sits squarely upon the work of Jesus Christ and Him alone. But if I want to honor God by celebrating the very same things you celebrate for the same reason on the days HE said to celebrate them on instead of on pagan holidays, what is that to you?

apothanein kerdos
Sep 20th 2008, 11:26 PM
I don't see any harm in participating in these holidays. After all, Jesus did and He was the reason for them. Likewise, the Disciples still participated in them after the resurrection of Christ.

I don't think we have to observe them, but there's certainly nothing wrong with observing them through a Christian perspective. I mean, Yom Kippur in the traditional sense is the day of atonement, which means Christians shouldn't celebrate it as a way of atonement, but as a way of celebrating the atonement Christ brought us. That would be an example of how Christians should "tweak" these old practices.

Kahtar
Sep 20th 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't see any harm in participating in these holidays. After all, Jesus did and He was the reason for them. Likewise, the Disciples still participated in them after the resurrection of Christ.

I don't think we have to observe them, but there's certainly nothing wrong with observing them through a Christian perspective. I mean, Yom Kippur in the traditional sense is the day of atonement, which means Christians shouldn't celebrate it as a way of atonement, but as a way of celebrating the atonement Christ brought us. That would be an example of how Christians should "tweak" these old practices.

Exactly!.................

Richard H
Sep 20th 2008, 11:35 PM
I for one (so I guess that makes two of us - total), don’t celebrate christmas or easter because they were originally a pagan holidays – but now have Christian labels.

I do observe Passover – but not in full ceremony. (we did rid the house of yeast, though)

Richard

IPet2_9
Sep 20th 2008, 11:47 PM
How about this: if you're a non-Jew who observes Jewish practices, then why not just convert to Judaism? You can convert to it just like you can any other religion.

Richard H
Sep 20th 2008, 11:52 PM
How about this: if you're a non-Jew who observes Jewish practices, then why not just convert to Judaism? You can convert to it just like you can any other religion.
wait Wait! It might take a moment for me to turn my other cheek...


OK I'm ready now.

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 12:06 AM
:hmm: :confused um...uh...ok.....

I guess you could convert to Judaism, observe their traditions, and then convert to Christianity again. Then you would be a Messianic Jew. Once you're converted to Judaism, you would never lose your Jewishness after that, because then you're a member of the race.

I'm not trying to slap anybody, I'm just wondering what is the motivation? I mean if you want to observe, why not just become Messianic Jew? Why sit on the outside looking in if you don't have to?

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 12:14 AM
:hmm: :confused um...uh...ok.....

I guess you could convert to Judaism, observe their traditions, and then convert to Christianity again. Then you would be a Messianic Jew. Once you're converted to Judaism, you would never lose your Jewishness after that, because then you're a member of the race.

I'm not trying to slap anybody, I'm just wondering what is the motivation? I mean if you want to observe, why not just become Messianic Jew? Why sit on the outside looking in if you don't have to?

The reason?

Both the observance of Sunday and the observance of christmas and easter are man-made doctrine and tradition which have pagan roots.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 12:22 AM
To clarify:
I reject the edict of the Pope Sylvester the First - following Constantine’s pagan-Christian synthesis simply to unify his empire (c321 AD),
and choose to worship on the day of the week which the Father sanctified. (Gen 2:3) AND is the forth Commandment.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:17-19

Richard

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 12:58 AM
Oh! Go for it.


Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

I will say this, though: don't let Saturday Sabbath be an excuse not to go to church. Church is important.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 03:19 AM
Oh! Go for it.


Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

I will say this, though: don't let Saturday Sabbath be an excuse not to go to church. Church is important.

JThanks.
I totally agree about not forsaking church.
I used to go to a church that had a Saturday service in addition to Sunday, but there was too much error and focus on polling percentages.

I’ve been looking for a good 7th day church, but hold no regard for Ellen G White, so SDA is out of the question.
I discovered a local United Church of God today, so I’m going next week.

Richard

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 03:22 AM
Also, nice move turning the other cheek, and also being quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. Besides being obedient, you avoided a needless argument. I guess that's why those Scriptures are there.
:spin:

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 04:27 AM
:hmm: :confused um...uh...ok.....

I guess you could convert to Judaism, observe their traditions, and then convert to Christianity again. Then you would be a Messianic Jew. Once you're converted to Judaism, you would never lose your Jewishness after that, because then you're a member of the race.

I'm not trying to slap anybody, I'm just wondering what is the motivation? I mean if you want to observe, why not just become Messianic Jew? Why sit on the outside looking in if you don't have to?

I am a Messianic Jew (a Jew by birth who knows Jesus is the Messiah) and I celebrate none of the feasts--or the Sabbath. I do study, though, to show myself approved.

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 04:54 AM
I am a Messianic Jew (a Jew by birth who knows Jesus is the Messiah) and I celebrate none of the feasts--or the Sabbath. I do study, though, to show myself approved.
Hi SIG,
I meant no disrespect and have visited a Messianic congregation in the area in my search for a 7th day church, but they were just too far away.

I was referring to the idea that I should convert in order to be under the old covenant. I have no desire for that, as apparently you don’t either.
‘Pete’ and I are on good terms and I’m glad he came back with Col 2:16 and reminded me to get to church.

Richard

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 05:09 AM
I can understand that it is difficult for many Christians to accept my conviction about the Sabbath.

While I try to adhere to Jesus' teaching of turning the other cheek, I think I was not in keeping with that attitude, when I posted.

For that I apologize to 'Pete' and to all of you.

Richard

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 05:11 AM
One year our church held a Passover Seder. It was very enriching and enlightening to see how the entire ceremony pointed forward to Jesus. Very worthwhile.

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 08:25 AM
Hi SIG,
I meant no disrespect and have visited a Messianic congregation in the area in my search for a 7th day church, but they were just too far away.

I was referring to the idea that I should convert in order to be under the old covenant. I have no desire for that, as apparently you don’t either.
‘Pete’ and I are on good terms and I’m glad he came back with Col 2:16 and reminded me to get to church.

Richard

I did not feel disrespected; I just wanted to expand the definition of "Messianic Jew" a bit.

valleybldr
Sep 21st 2008, 10:41 AM
But I suppose we will formulate some religion regardless for that is the nature of man who prefers to walk by sight rather than by faith. The trick is not to let it turn you to idolatry as it did the Jews who forsook the Lord while fervently defending their traditions. Notice too that when called to hear and to choose, they rejected the Lord and eternal life in favor of their traditions...
Godly traditions and mans traditions are two different things. Religions of human origin are all around us. In terms of "Holy Days" I've opted to allow a Holy God make that call.

Unless you speak the language, I see no benefit of praying in Hebrew over any other language. I'm active in a Messianic Congregation which a focuses on the salvation of Jewish people. We do some prayers in both Hebrew and English.

todd

ananias
Sep 21st 2008, 11:41 AM
One year our church held a Passover Seder. It was very enriching and enlightening to see how the entire ceremony pointed forward to Jesus. Very worthwhile.

This is the whole point - the types and shadows (ie the Sabbaths, new moon celebrations and "the Feasts of the LORD") have a deep wealth of teaching which Easter and Christmas do not. The details of the Passover seder, for example, as seen from a Christian perspective, can only renew our minds to fully appreciate just what our Lord Jesus has done for us.

The details of the fall feasts of the Biblical calendar contain a deep wealth of information regarding not only the first coming and work of our Savior, but also of His second coming.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either studying or observing/celebrating God's appointed times which teach us about our Savior and about His salvation .

But there is something wrong with those who celebrate Christmas and Easter criticizing those who celebrate the Biblical festivals and asking them accusing questions like, "Why don't you just convert to Judaism"?

Those of us who study/observe/celebrate the Biblical feasts and festivals don't ask those who celebrate Christmas and Easter why they don't just convert to paganism and the worship of the gods whose worship is the root of Christmas day and the goddess Easter (Ishtar). This is because we understand that it is for freedom that Messiah has set us free and as long as we worship Messiah (Christ) in our hearts during these times, we are free to do so.

ananias.

petepet
Sep 21st 2008, 02:26 PM
I'm using videos of classes from a seminary posted on iTunes U to help me learn Hebrew. The class is called Biblical Hebrew. So I guess I'm not clear on what you mean here. Why wouldn't someone be able to learn Biblical Hebrew?

Hi Strictly speaking there is no such thing as Biblical Hebrew. The Hebrew of Moses' time was very different from the Hebrew of David's time, and the Hebrew of David's time was very different from the Hebrew duing the Exile and the Hebrew during the Exile was very different from that used in Jesus' time. (That is why we have to be so careful about how we translate). Thus which Biblical Hebrew do you mean?

A very good example of this is the word bethulah. In early Hebrew (and Canaanite) it meant a youing woman, often married. In later times it meant virgin The difference is quite crucial.

Furthermore none of these versions of Hebrew can be 'spoken' because no one knows how Hebrew was pronounced in any of those periods.

Yes, of course you can learn a basic Hebrew course which will give you some assistance in generally understanding the Bible in Hebrew, but do not deceive yourself into thinking that you can 'speak it' or indeed that you are qualified to translate it without huge help from advanced scholars, and even they often struggle.

The discoveries at Ugarit (and even at Ebla) have caused great changes in our understanding of early Hebrew. More discoveries at some stage will have the same effect. Thus even the finest scholars are still 'learning Hebrew'.

I do have some understanding of Hebrew and won the senior Hebrew prize at college. But I am still very much a learner and constantly dependent on advanced scholars for understanding some parts of the Old Testament

Best wishes in your studies. I know how tough it can be.

Liv
Sep 21st 2008, 03:40 PM
This is the whole point - the types and shadows (ie the Sabbaths, new moon celebrations and "the Feasts of the LORD") have a deep wealth of teaching which Easter and Christmas do not. The details of the Passover seder, for example, as seen from a Christian perspective, can only renew our minds to fully appreciate just what our Lord Jesus has done for us.

The details of the fall feasts of the Biblical calendar contain a deep wealth of information regarding not only the first coming and work of our Savior, but also of His second coming.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either studying or observing/celebrating God's appointed times which teach us about our Savior and about His salvation .

But there is something wrong with those who celebrate Christmas and Easter criticizing those who celebrate the Biblical festivals and asking them accusing questions like, "Why don't you just convert to Judaism"?

Those of us who study/observe/celebrate the Biblical feasts and festivals don't ask those who celebrate Christmas and Easter why they don't just convert to paganism and the worship of the gods whose worship is the root of Christmas day and the goddess Easter (Ishtar). This is because we understand that it is for freedom that Messiah has set us free and as long as we worship Messiah (Christ) in our hearts during these times, we are free to do so.

ananias.

Well said. I think that makes perfect sense. Thank you!

Emanate
Sep 21st 2008, 05:15 PM
I'm not trying to slap anybody, I'm just wondering what is the motivation? I mean if you want to observe, why not just become Messianic Jew? Why sit on the outside looking in if you don't have to?


You are a stranger to the covenants?

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 05:25 PM
As for me--I don't really celebrate the feasts, Sabbaths, Christmas or Easter, Halloween or Valentine's Day or national holidays, and don't even much notice my birthdays. I thank God that He has made ALL days holy to me; each day is a free gift, and I wake up and say, "This is the day that the LORD has made; I will rejoice and be glad in it."

But whenever those feasts or "pagan" observances or secular holidays or even birthdays have anything to teach me about Jesus Christ, I seize the chance...

IPet2_9
Sep 21st 2008, 05:45 PM
I'm thinking of telling my wife that I'm convicted we should stop observing holidays, birthdays, or wedding anniversaries. She'll probably slap me on the chest and say I'm full of it. :spin:


She would be right.
:rofl:

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2008, 06:04 PM
I'm thinking of telling my wife that I'm convicted we should stop observing holidays, birthdays, or wedding anniversaries. She'll probably slap me on the chest and say I'm full of it. :spin:


She would be right.
:rofl:The things of this world are the things men attach importance to and so we celebrate them for each other. The snare is when we try to attach religious importance to such things and declare them as an offering to God, expecting Him to be pleased by our efforts. Thanksgiving and praise is what constitutes proper worship to offer that pleases Him. And the submission of ourselves to do His will that we might bear His fruit of love in this world. The religious extras are just that and add nothing except that it pleases us to do them. The Lord does not require such things from us at all. Which of course never stops us!

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 06:27 PM
I'm thinking of telling my wife that I'm convicted we should stop observing holidays, birthdays, or wedding anniversaries. She'll probably slap me on the chest and say I'm full of it. :spin:


She would be right.
:rofl:

At least about "wedding anniversaries". :D
Don't go there!

Liv
Sep 21st 2008, 07:34 PM
The things of this world are the things men attach importance to and so we celebrate them for each other. The snare is when we try to attach religious importance to such things and declare them as an offering to God, expecting Him to be pleased by our efforts. Thanksgiving and praise is what constitutes proper worship to offer that pleases Him. And the submission of ourselves to do His will that we might bear His fruit of love in this world. The religious extras are just that and add nothing except that it pleases us to do them. The Lord does not require such things from us at all. Which of course never stops us!

But isn't the purpose of religious holidays to give thanksgiving and praise to God?

ananias
Sep 21st 2008, 10:16 PM
As for me--I don't really celebrate the feasts, Sabbaths, Christmas or Easter, Halloween or Valentine's Day or national holidays, and don't even much notice my birthdays. I thank God that He has made ALL days holy to me; each day is a free gift, and I wake up and say, "This is the day that the LORD has made; I will rejoice and be glad in it."

But whenever those feasts or "pagan" observances or secular holidays or even birthdays have anything to teach me about Jesus Christ, I seize the chance...

Hello, Sig.

You seize the chance - except (judging from what you've said earlier) when those feasts are the ones God gave to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the feasts which teach about Christ?

ananias

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 10:59 PM
I'm thinking of telling my wife that I'm convicted we should stop observing holidays, birthdays, or wedding anniversaries. She'll probably slap me on the chest and say I'm full of it. :spin:


She would be right.
:rofl:

I'm single........

SIG
Sep 21st 2008, 11:03 PM
Hello, Sig.

You seize the chance - except (judging from what you've said earlier) when those feasts are the ones God gave to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the feasts which teach about Christ?

ananias

No--I said I don't celebrate them. But I do study them and learn from them. I try to celebrate (new life in Christ) all the time.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 22nd 2008, 02:10 AM
I was exactly where you are, Liv, about 6 years ago, and my family and I have been so blessed on this journey God has led us through. One bit of advice I'd offer you is to not simply copy Jewish traditions. That can indeed become burdensome. Read God's word and let the Holy Spirit lead you. :) Don't be discourage by anyone. If you feel the Spirit leading...then by all means you follow! And remember, we have freedom in Messiah, and that freedom includes the freedom to celebrate His feasts! ;) Hopefully now at least you know that you are not alone!

God Bless!

Liv
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:14 AM
I was exactly where you are, Liv, about 6 years ago, and my family and I have been so blessed on this journey God has led us through. One bit of advice I'd offer you is to not simply copy Jewish traditions. That can indeed become burdensome. Read God's word and let the Holy Spirit lead you. :) Don't be discourage by anyone. If you feel the Spirit leading...then by all means you follow! And remember, we have freedom in Messiah, and that freedom includes the freedom to celebrate His feasts! ;) Hopefully now at least you know that you are not alone!

God Bless!

Thank you for the encouragement! :)

BHS
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:07 PM
I've recently begun to study Jewish holidays, traditions, practices, etc, and I'm really loving it because the Jews have such beautiful ways of praising God, and everything points to Jesus as well, even if a lot of Jews deny it. I'm really interested in learning more and even adopting some Jewish practices myself, such as celebrating holidays and learning prayers in Hebrew.

This seems natural enough to me because the more you understand the Bible from a Hebraic perspective, the more full your understanding and appreciation of it will be.

But...I don't really know any other non-Jews who incorporate Jewish practices into their lives. Do you think it might be sort of an awkward or strange thing for me to want to do?

Liv,

I would say -- let this just be a start. There is tremendous joy in celebrating the Lord's feasts. And as you stretch your horizons to learn about them, I would encourage you to also learn more about God's revelation --

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says,

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

It is within the "OT" that God revealed Himself to His People and this is the Father Whom Jesus was the express image of. Come to know Him as He was revealed throughout the Scripture.

Blessings,
BHS

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:22 PM
By all means go back to where Christ's true identity and God's purpose in redemption was hidden and try to discover it again. Revel in those shadows and see if they bring you into the same understanding that it did Israel who rejected Jesus when He arrived. Because that is why He was hidden there. So He could bring the cross to bear. This was how Israel was kept blind to His Messiahship which only the light given to the apostles could disclose. Only the light we have in the truth of Christ can lift the veil that is on the OT. Just make sure you keep that light burning bright when you go back to do those things that ended up putting Israel's light out in the end.

Emanate
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:27 PM
By all means go back to where Christ's true identity and God's purpose in redemption was hidden and try to discover it again. Revel in those shadows and see if they bring you into the same understanding that it did Israel who rejected Jesus when He arrived. Because that is why He was hidden there. So He could bring the cross to bear. This was how Israel was kept blind to His Messiahship which only the light given to the apostles could disclose. Only the light we have in the truth of Christ can lift the veil that is on the OT. Just make sure you keep that light burning bright when you go back to do those things that ended up putting Israel's light out in the end.


I would disagree that it was God's "appointed times" that kept Israel in the dark. It was forsaking Torah that kept Israel in the dark. You can keep your vehement attitude to the times that YHWH called "my appointed times," but some of us draw a deeper understanding of Messiah by celebrating his appointed times. If living by the Word that became flesh is living in the shadows, why is there so much light in them?

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:43 PM
I would disagree that it was God's "appointed times" that kept Israel in the dark. It was forsaking Torah that kept Israel in the dark. You can keep your vehement attitude to the times that YHWH called "my appointed times," but some of us draw a deeper understanding of Messiah by celebrating his appointed times. If living by the Word that became flesh is living in the shadows, why is there so much light in them?I would believe you if those who promote that we should do these things actually saw what Christ has accomplished in fulfilling them. Holding onto the carnal elements tends to put out the very light you say you have regarding these spiritual things. It isn't afterall as though you just merely have a dinner to celebrate these feasts is it? I would say not when you go back to building booths in your backyard and all the rest...

Emanate
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:31 PM
I would believe you if those who promote that we should do these things actually saw what Christ has accomplished in fulfilling them. Holding onto the carnal elements tends to put out the very light you say you have regarding these spiritual things. It isn't afterall as though you just merely have a dinner to celebrate these feasts is it? I would say not when you go back to building booths in your backyard and all the rest...


If the Word of God is a carnal element then I suppose you are right. Call me crazy, but I agree with the Word when it calls the feasts a joy and a delight. I would say that participating in the Appointed Times opens the eyes of my understanding as to what was accomplished by Messiah. You may call it carnality, I call it a blessing.

Kahtar
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:31 PM
I understand what you are saying MoGrace. But consider this:
Christmas tradition
Go out and cut a tree
bring it home, cut it to fit the house
put lots of decorations on it
spend mucho dinero on presents
place those presents under the tree
decorate the yard with santa clause and
reindeer, and snowmen
string tens or hundreds of feet of lights
use a bunch of electricty to run the lights
sing carols and fix a big Christmas dinner
remember (if you are a Christian) the birth of Christ

Tabernacles Tradition
build a booth in the backyard
live in it for a week
read the Word, pray, sing
contimplate how God came to dwell with man in the wilderness
contimplate how God came to dwell with man in the flesh
contimplate how God will come to dwell with man

All of the above, in both categories, can be classified as the carnel elements, except the last one in the first group, and the last three in the other.
which set is more likely to 'put out your light'? How does celebrating tabernacles including the carnel elements of it putout your light, but the celebration of christmas, including it's carnal elements not put out your light?
Do those who celebrate Christmas actually see any better what Christ has accomplished than those who celebrate tabernacles?

timmyb
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:36 PM
What about Messianic Jews? Would it be better for them to stop observing Jewish practices since they trust in Jesus?

but that's their culture... and things they have been doing as a people... it's not a basis of righteousness... and it never has been that and it never will be that

keck553
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:46 PM
Observing God's feasts isn't Jewish; it doesn't belongs to Jews. They belong to all children of God to cherish, remember our Redeemer with and to celebrate our salvation in HaMaschiah Yeshua. This isn't Jewish culture, it is God's culture. Jewish culture would be all the traditions of men they added to God's Word, likewise Christian culture is all the traditions men added to God's Word. While traditions can be nice, comforting, etc, they are NOT to replace the things of God.

Don't let anyone tell you, Liv, that what God gives you in His Word are for Jews only. God's Word is sacred and holy. God's Word is Spirit and it is Life for all His children, and through all ages. Don't let men's distortions, replacement theology and men's traditions replace God's perfect timing, perfect will, perfect way, and perfect redemption. Jesus pointed out the profantiy of men's traditions replaceing God's Word in His day, and as His disciples, we should follow Him in the same way.

ananias
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:13 PM
By all means go back to where Christ's true identity and God's purpose in redemption was hidden and try to discover it again.

Revel in those shadows and see if they bring you into the same understanding that it did Israel who rejected Jesus when He arrived. Because that is why He was hidden there. So He could bring the cross to bear.

This was how Israel was kept blind to His Messiahship which only the light given to the apostles could disclose. Only the light we have in the truth of Christ can lift the veil that is on the OT.

Aha!, Mograce2U! Now at last you understand why only Christians can understand the real meaning of the Feasts of the LORD and why those unsaved Jews who still celebrate them cannot! - it's because only the light we have in the truth of Christ can lift the veil that is on the OT - and that is exactly why only Christians can see what these Feasts mean and what they teach us about Jesus and how each and every detail of each and every one of them points to Him (unlike Christmas and Easter and "Lady Day" and "St Patricks Day" and "Good Friday" and the Easter bunny and Easter egg and.................. )

Just very puzzling for those of us who are free in Christ to celebrate God's appointed times as to why so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ are just as blinded to the joy and meaning of these Holy Spirit-inspired Feasts and appointed days and times as the unsaved Jews are. It's really puzzling - because we know you are saved - whereas we know the unsaved Jews who are blinded to the meaning of these Feasts etc are unsaved.

The unsaved Jews who still do observe these days/feasts etc do so with an empty spirit - they are a burden to them.

If celebrating Christmas is a religious burden to a Christian, well then he's probably not a main-stream Protestant Christian- but saved Christians celebrate whatever festivals/days etc they celebrate/observe in honor of Christ with joy - and at least some of them understand the Biblical Feasts and their meaning - and so they study/observe/celebrate them with joy - when they choose to - because we all know that there is no longer any law which makes it a requirement to observe/celebrate/study them.

So you hit the nail right on the head, there, Mograce2U - it's because only the light we have in the truth of Christ can lift the veil that is on the OT - and that is exactly why only Christians can see what these Feasts mean and what they teach us about Jesus and how each and every detail of each and every one of them points to Him (unlike Christmas and Easter and "Lady Day" and "St Patricks Day" and "Good Friday" and the Easter bunny and Easter egg and.................. )

ananias

Richard H
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:18 PM
For myself (and I think others here would concur), attention to some of the ways from the Old Testament as outlined by God,
is an effort to come to a better understanding and appreciation of God’s original intent.

What was he communicating by establishing these observances?
What can we understand in light of Messiah?
What does it add to our understanding of God’s overall plan?
The feasts are memorials to mark significant events in God’s timetable.

It says in Zechariah that all the nations will be required to observe the feast of tabernacles [ADDED] during the Millenium.
Does THAT seem significant to you?
Does it seem like God no longer see any reason for these observances which He ordained in the first place?

The study of prophecy is incomplete without an understanding of the significance of the feasts.
People learn by various means. Some learn by doing – and in that doing, God is able to add insights to their understanding.

Certainly, none here advocate that we should rip the Old Testament from our Bibles.
Somewhere it is written that: these things were written down, so that we might learn from them.

Neither do I think that anyone here is advocating that we pick up the yoke of the letter of the law which has no power to save – only to convict.

Remember that we are to let no man judge us for foods, feasts, Sabbaths or even moons.
Neither should we judge – lest we be judged by an equally stringent standard.

Richard

PS: Christmas [and Easter (not Passover)] - is still: the observance of a pagan day.
Only the name has been changed to protect the guilty.
(the “guilty” being the pagans)


Just ask Google. :rolleyes:

keck553
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:35 PM
Great post Anaias! And it's not just the feasts that point specifically to Yeshua, it's the fullness of God's Word, right back to the first 'bet' in Genesis 1:1.

And that's what John was telling us in 1:1-14.

"The Word become flesh" in this case describes the Character of God - His Love, His mercy, His sinless nature, His faithfulness, His plan of drawing His children near - back to the garden relationship, - the characterization of 100% God with the characterization of 100% man - His love, His loneliness, His sadness, His happiness, His hunger, His fatigue, His pain, His temptaions. Yeshua is the Word become flesh - all aspects of the 66 books of God's inspired Word wrapped up into Yeshua, who could sympathize with us and who is the only One worthy to present us as whole before the Father.

Non-beleivers can't see it. Sometimes it makes no sense to me, it's so clear and defined right in the Word that unbelelieving Jews study also. Anti-missionaries can amaze me by the Scriptural gymnastics they go through to deny Yeshua - as much as some Christian gymnastics to avoid Shabbat amaze me. Sometimes it seems the light is on, but some choose blinders. And I am no exception to this.

I can't love Him the way He loves me. My love falls short. But I try the best I know how and remembering, celebrating the moe'dim that He carefully planned before the foundation of the universe to is one way I remember Him, love Him and worship Him. He is my way, my truth and my light.

valleybldr
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:46 PM
The unsaved Jews who still do observe these days/feasts etc do so with an empty spirit - they are a burden to them. That might be true in some cases but I think most Jews enjoy their rich celebatory tradition. todd

threebigrocks
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:15 AM
That might be true in some cases but I think most Jews enjoy their rich celebatory tradition. todd

Key word that annaias said: unsaved Jews.

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:17 AM
Kahtar, #56 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1797292&postcount=56)
My comparison of Xmas traditions to Jewish traditions did not place one over the other, but put them both on equal footing - it is still the same thing whether Jewish or pagan in origin - ie., doing what is right in your own eyes.

SIG
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:02 AM
I find Christ wherever I will.

keck553
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:36 PM
Key word that annaias said: unsaved Jews.

How many unsaved Christians are there?

keck553
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:37 PM
Kahtar, #56 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1797292&postcount=56)
My comparison of Xmas traditions to Jewish traditions did not place one over the other, but put them both on equal footing - it is still the same thing whether Jewish or pagan in origin - ie., doing what is right in your own eyes.

So you're saying "doing right" by your own standards is Holy to God?

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:54 PM
How many unsaved Christians are there?

Too many. :cry:

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:00 PM
<snip>
put them both on equal footing - it is still the same thing whether Jewish or pagan in origin - ie., doing what is right in your own eyes.

No difference between the pagan and the Jew(Hebrew)?!!!

er... how close is this to the B word?

Richard

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:28 PM
So you're saying "doing right" by your own standards is Holy to God?No, I said the opposite. If you are going to do what the Bible says then how is it you are the one who decides which things you will do and which you will not? Where will you find the NT instructions for how to keep the old feasts that allows you to change the Levitical laws which concern them? Different yet the same was my point, be it Jewish or pagan in origin.

valleybldr
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:30 PM
old feasts Zech 14. They are prophetic...ahead of our time. todd

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:31 PM
No difference between the pagan and the Jew(Hebrew)?!!!

er... how close is this to the B word?

RichardAbout as close as this word:

(James 2:10 KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(Gal 4:21 KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:32 PM
Zech 14. They are prophetic...ahead of our time. toddActually, they are behind our current times - Christ has come, died and is risen. The kingdom of God is in our midst.

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:37 PM
About as close as this word:

(James 2:10 KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(Gal 4:21 KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

I'm not under the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the Law. I follow the one who called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath.

Jer 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:45 PM
About as close as this word:

(James 2:10 KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(Gal 4:21 KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Besides..., are you equating your opinions to Scripture?
"My comparison of Xmas..."

valleybldr
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:50 PM
Actually, they are behind our current times - Christ has come, died and is risen. The kingdom of God is in our midst.
Oh, so we can scratch the literal fulfillment of Zech 14? No thanks. I plan on seeing the Kingdom reign in it's fullness for all the nations. todd

Emanate
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:56 PM
About as close as this word:

(James 2:10 KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(Gal 4:21 KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Strange that Paul called himself "under the law to Messiah"

As far as your James reference in context, you are suggesting that murder and adultery are beneficial but only if one do both?

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:57 PM
Oh, so we can scratch the literal fulfillment of Zech 14? No thanks. I plan on seeing the Kingdom reign in it's fullness for all the nations. todd
Hi Todd,
Robin's right in this:

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

But you are also right (in my opinion) in expecting a literal fulfillment, where Christ is indeed King over all.

Richard

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:58 PM
I'm not under the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the Law. I follow the one who called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath.

Jer 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Now you have me curious. When God rested from His work of creation on the 7th day, did He go back to work for the next six and rest again on the following 7th day? Or did He not rest from then on?

Man is the one who works 6 out of 7. And if not given a day of rest would not be refreshed in body to continue on. And his striving after meeting his physical needs to get ahead we see led him into sin when he neglected the Sabbath. I can see the benefit of the Sabbath for the flesh and also its provision to keep sin in check. And also as keeck said, a day devoted to focus only upon the Lord would certainly reap spiritual benefit as well.

But here's the rub for me. If my old man's flesh is reckoned dead and eternal life is the possession of my new man - why must I consider the needs of my carnal man at all - which the law was concerned with? Are those not the things the Lord looks after and all I need do is ask Him and trust Him for it? Is not my mind to always be focused upon things above and not upon the things of this earth? I have access to the Lord 24/7 to make request for His help. Therefore the times of my refreshing come from the presence of the Lord and not because of the day.

If I were only able to do such things one day a week, you could perhaps convince me of their import. But my Sabbath is never ending...

valleybldr
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:04 PM
Hi Todd,
Robin's right in this:

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

But you are also right (in my opinion) in expecting a literal fulfillment, where Christ is indeed King over all.

Richard That's why I said "fullness.";) todd

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:12 PM
Now you have me curious. When God rested from His work of creation on the 7th day, did He go back to work for the next six and rest again on the following 7th day? Or did He not rest from then on?

Man is the one who works 6 out of 7. And if not given a day of rest would not be refreshed in body to continue on. And his striving after meeting his physical needs to get ahead we see led him into sin when he neglected the Sabbath. I can see the benefit of the Sabbath for the flesh and also its provision to keep sin in check. And also as keeck said, a day devoted to focus only upon the Lord would certainly reap spiritual benefit as well.

But here's the rub for me. If my old man's flesh is reckoned dead and eternal life is the possession of my new man - why must I consider the needs of my carnal man at all - which the law was concerned with? Are those not the things the Lord looks after and all I need do is ask Him and trust Him for it? Is not my mind to always be focused upon things above and not upon the things of this earth? I have access to the Lord 24/7 to make request for His help. Therefore the times of my refreshing come from the presence of the Lord and not because of the day.

If I were only able to do such things one day a week, you could perhaps convince me of their import. But my Sabbath is never ending...

I agree with you Robin, we should always be focusing on the Lord and being about His work.
For me the Sabbath does not excuse me for the rest of the week.

Still, it was important enough for Him to set as a day different from the others, so I do too.

Paul was always about the Lord’s work – even on the Sabbath.

However, I’d say that if one chooses to set aside a day to rest in the Lord it should be the day
of YHWH’s choosing and not that of Constantine or Pope Sylvester I.

I’d venture to say that most (in the churches today) who cling to the day of the Sun as their “Sabbath”, really only devote a little over an hour anyway.

Richard

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:26 PM
Now you have me curious. When God rested from His work of creation on the 7th day, did He go back to work for the next six and rest again on the following 7th day? Or did He not rest from then on?
<snip>


Interesting! I think it says He rested from all His work (of creation).

I suppose we're to do the rest of His intent until the day He brings about the seventh millenium - creation's Sabbath from the grip of Satan.

Richard

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:28 PM
No, I said the opposite. If you are going to do what the Bible says then how is it you are the one who decides which things you will do and which you will not? Where will you find the NT instructions for how to keep the old feasts that allows you to change the Levitical laws which concern them? Different yet the same was my point, be it Jewish or pagan in origin.

Mograce,

Haven't you ever heard the expression "the New (Testament) is hidden in the Old (Testament), and the Old (Testament) is revealed by the New (Testament)?

Do you think God revealed the appointed days and times so that they could be observed/celebrated only while they were NOT fully understood?

If you ever witness for yourself how much understanding a child of 7 or 8 gains regarding exactly who Jesus is (and what He did for us) after that child has celebrated the Passover meal from a Christian perspective with adults who explained the meaning of each detail to him, compared to how much that same child understood before he ate the Passover meal, perhaps you'd think again about God's appointed days/times.

ananias

BroRog
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:28 PM
Now you have me curious. When God rested from His work of creation on the 7th day, did He go back to work for the next six and rest again on the following 7th day? Or did He not rest from then on?

Man is the one who works 6 out of 7. And if not given a day of rest would not be refreshed in body to continue on. And his striving after meeting his physical needs to get ahead we see led him into sin when he neglected the Sabbath. I can see the benefit of the Sabbath for the flesh and also its provision to keep sin in check. And also as keeck said, a day devoted to focus only upon the Lord would certainly reap spiritual benefit as well.

But here's the rub for me. If my old man's flesh is reckoned dead and eternal life is the possession of my new man - why must I consider the needs of my carnal man at all - which the law was concerned with? Are those not the things the Lord looks after and all I need do is ask Him and trust Him for it? Is not my mind to always be focused upon things above and not upon the things of this earth? I have access to the Lord 24/7 to make request for His help. Therefore the times of my refreshing come from the presence of the Lord and not because of the day.

If I were only able to do such things one day a week, you could perhaps convince me of their import. But my Sabbath is never ending...


I think you will find, from John's gospel around chapter 4, 5, or 6, that indeed, God continues to work. Jesus said, I am doing what I see my father doing.

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:38 PM
I think you will find, from John's gospel around chapter 4, 5, or 6, that indeed, God continues to work. Jesus said, I am doing what I see my father doing.Yes of course, but the content of that work is not the same. Now that the project is built, He sustains it. Therefore my rest in Him is in what He does, not trusting or depending upon what I do.

Kahtar
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:41 PM
But here's the rub for me. If my old man's flesh is reckoned dead and eternal life is the possession of my new man - why must I consider the needs of my carnal man at all - which the law was concerned with?
In carrying that logic out:
Law, concerned with the flesh
Do not kill - why should I, being reckoned dead, consider this?
Do not steal- why should I, being reckoned dead, consider this?
Honor your parents- why should I, being reckoned dead, consider this?
Love God- why should I, being reckoned dead, consider this?
Since we are dead to this law, as you say, why should we be concerned with it?
Just guessing your answer, 'Because now we follow the law of Christ.'
What is the law of Christ?
Love God and love neighbor.
All the law and the prophets (ie the law of the Old Testament) 'hang' upon these two. Fulfill these two, and you fulfill the law. What law? All the law and the prophets (the law of the Old Testament). So then by doing the two, we are doing all 613 (minus those that do not pertain). So, by doing the two, we are doing the 613, and by your logic, we need not be concerned with the 613, which hang upon the two, and thus, logically, we need not be conerned with the two, either, because they are the whole 613, which we are now dead to. Thus, no need to fulfill any law.
If we obey the law, we are putting ourselves under it, according to some.
Thus, if I refrain from killing, I am putting myself under the law, or if I love God, I am putting myself under the law, and by doing so am trying to earn my salvation which we all know can't be done.

How about this instead:
I am reackoned dead with Christ, and raised up in newness of life, no longer under the law. Because I have already died (through Christ's death in my place), the PENALTY for my sin is already paid, thus I am no longer under the threatening of the penalty.
Because I have been set free from the penalty of the law (ie death), I am now free to love and worship God and love my neighbor, thus fulfilling all the law (of the Old Testament which hang upon the two), without fear of failing and coming under the condemnation (the penalty of death) of the law, because, when I do fail, and I will, I know my failure has ALREADY been paid for.
I am now free to love (which is the whole law, Genesis to Revelation, and includes the 613) without trying to earn salvation, or righteousness, because I already have my salvation and righteousness, by grace through faith in the death Christ paid in my behalf. I am free to love and obey without fear. Why obey? Not for salvation, not for righteousness, but purely out of a desire to please and walk with He Who died for me.

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:45 PM
Hi Todd,
Robin's right in this:

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

But you are also right (in my opinion) in expecting a literal fulfillment, where Christ is indeed King over all.

RichardYou mean like a literal spiritual fulfillment for a spiritual and glorified people - people who are like Him? Or do you think a spiritual kingdom is somehow less "real" than an earthly one? Being a King over a non-spiritual people somehow doesn't seem to be in the works to me. I believe that was tried before... and we were shown that was not the plan.

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:57 PM
Kahtar,
I have no problem with how you have explained these things. But let me ask you this. In the hereafter, which of these 613 laws will you "keep"? Laws which concern sins of the flesh? If you say none other than love, I will agree. Not even faith and hope will be needed when we see Him face to face. That is position we are to take now, though faith and hope are here for us still in this world. If love is what moves us then we will be walking in His ways and the things we do will be found pleasing in His sight and He will be merciful to our unrighteousness. Therefore we draw close to Him because we must operate in His power and strength whereby He keeps us sanctified. All those other laws were about holiness because of sin. Sin is not where our focus needs to be, abiding in Christ is what is needed to overcome.

When you change the nature of the thief and give him a generous heart, you don't need to keep warning him not to steal!

Buckeye Doug
Sep 23rd 2008, 06:01 PM
I agree with you Robin, we should always be focusing on the Lord and being about His work.
For me the Sabbath does not excuse me for the rest of the week.

Still, it was important enough for Him to set as a day different from the others, so I do too.

Paul was always about the Lord’s work – even on the Sabbath.

However, I’d say that if one chooses to set aside a day to rest in the Lord it should be the day
of YHWH’s choosing and not that of Constantine or Pope Sylvester I.

I’d venture to say that most (in the churches today) who cling to the day of the Sun as their “Sabbath”, really only devote a little over an hour anyway.

Richard

Richard,

I think you hit a "grand slam" there.
Thanks.

God bless.

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 06:02 PM
You mean like a literal spiritual fulfillment for a spiritual and glorified people - people who are like Him? Or do you think a spiritual kingdom is somehow less "real" than an earthly one? Being a King over a non-spiritual people somehow doesn't seem to be in the works to me. I believe that was tried before... and we were shown that was not the plan.
Yes, I believe He will come and reign over the nations and will place His people above all the nations.
Then the nations will all KNOW that YHWH is the real God and that Jesus is Messiah.


Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:24,8
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:24,8

Richard H
Sep 23rd 2008, 06:15 PM
Kahtar,
I have no problem with how you have explained these things. But let me ask you this. In the hereafter, which of these 613 laws will you "keep"? Laws which concern sins of the flesh? If you say none other than love, I will agree. Not even faith and hope will be needed when we see Him face to face. That is position we are to take now, though faith and hope are here for us still in this world. If love is what moves us then we will be walking in His ways and the things we do will be found pleasing in His sight and He will be merciful to our unrighteousness. Therefore we draw close to Him because we must operate in His power and strength whereby He keeps us sanctified. All those other laws were about holiness because of sin. Sin is not where our focus needs to be, abiding in Christ is what is needed to overcome.

When you change the nature of the thief and give him a generous heart, you don't need to keep warning him not to steal!

You're still thinking of the law as being "the letter of the law".
So that to you, (apparently) those who keep God's commandments in the Spirit of the Law are acting "under" the law.

I really can't understand why there is this objection to the Sabbath. It is the only one of the commandments (excluding the total revision by RCC), which people argue about.
No one says that by obeying "Thou shalt not kill", one is now in submission to and will be judged by all of the "how to" rules set forth for Israel.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 23rd 2008, 06:30 PM
If you ever witness for yourself how much understanding a child of 7 or 8 gains regarding exactly who Jesus is (and what He did for us) after that child has celebrated the Passover meal from a Christian perspective with adults who explained the meaning of each detail to him, compared to how much that same child understood before he ate the Passover meal, perhaps you'd think again about God's appointed days/times.

ananiasI believe you've hit the nail right on the head with this one! And even older people who are still immature in scripture gain so much clarity of the depths of what Messiah did and why through the lens of the feasts; all of them! We've been doing Passover for about 6 years and the rest of the feasts for the past 3 years. It has been very enlighting for the whole family! :pp

God Bless!

Emanate
Sep 23rd 2008, 07:05 PM
If you ever witness for yourself how much understanding a child of 7 or 8 gains regarding exactly who Jesus is (and what He did for us) after that child has celebrated the Passover meal from a Christian perspective with adults who explained the meaning of each detail to him,

ananias


A few years ago, my then 4 year old son started saying "I believe Shua is the Siah" during our Passover seder. My 3 year old started affirming it saying "Shuah is the Siah." It was a precious moment. Both my boys saw Y'shua in the Passover.

Kahtar
Sep 23rd 2008, 07:40 PM
When you change the nature of the thief and give him a generous heart, you don't need to keep warning him not to steal!

Yes, absolutely correct. Now that we are free from the curse of the law (death), we no longer need to focus on the law. It's written in our hearts. When Christ has changed his heart, he no longer needs to be told to obey the law. He now wants to do it. In fact, it becomes a natural thing to obey the law, without focusing on it, because that is his new nature.

So, now that Christ has changed my heart, it is the nature of my new life to focus on Christ, and that is what the feasts are about. Every one of them has to do with not just the historical physical occurances in Israel, such as the lamb for a house, the crossing of the Red sea, the manna, the law at Sinai, etc., but are in fact designed to point them toward the coming of Christ as the Lamb of God, the Sin-bearer, the Firstfruits of the church and the giver of the Spirit, He Whose blood made atonement for us, that we may in spirit tabernacle with Him.
But even more than that, they point also to His catching up His bride and His second coming (which I know already you don't agree with).
And so observing these feasts only minimally has to do with 'keeping law', but has primarily to do with celebrating His soon return, which of course you see no need for, because you do not see the physical coming of His Kingdom along with His spiritual coming. But that's another subject, for another thread. :)

keck553
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:58 PM
No, I said the opposite. If you are going to do what the Bible says then how is it you are the one who decides which things you will do and which you will not? Where will you find the NT instructions for how to keep the old feasts that allows you to change the Levitical laws which concern them? Different yet the same was my point, be it Jewish or pagan in origin.

I don't need God's instructions repeated in the Apostolic writings, just as I don't need God's instructions about men marrying thier sisters or sleeping with their father's wife or a myriad of other instructions repeated.

If you want to compare God's intructions with pagans, you'll have to take that up with Him. I won't be a party to that.

I see you've decided to add to God's word and insert 'old' in front of 'feast'. Unless you think your interpretation is part of the canon?

keck553
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:03 PM
If I were only able to do such things one day a week, you could perhaps convince me of their import. But my Sabbath is never ending...

Have you ever considered what God wants instead of what you want? That perhaps it's all about Him and not about us?

Just an idea here....

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:26 PM
A few years ago, my then 4 year old son started saying "I believe Shua is the Siah" during our Passover seder. My 3 year old started affirming it saying "Shuah is the Siah." It was a precious moment. Both my boys saw Y'shua in the Passover.

My, that's marvelous - out of the mouths of babes taught by GOD'S appointed days/times through His Spirit!

ananias

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:29 PM
I believe you've hit the nail right on the head with this one! And even older people who are still immature in scripture gain so much clarity of the depths of what Messiah did and why through the lens of the feasts; all of them! We've been doing Passover for about 6 years and the rest of the feasts for the past 3 years. It has been very enlighting for the whole family! :pp

God Bless!

God bless you, too, Studyin'2Show. I'm sure you and your family are especially blessed during the Feast-times!

ananias

dawnelise0004
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:34 PM
In Mark 5:17 Jesus said - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

A person isn't going to hell because they do or don't celebrate Jewish holy days, but I think if you do celebrate them that you just add another way to worship - because it IS still centered in the right place.

One way I look at it is this. Jesus observed all the "Biblical" Jewish holidays and He was the Messiah. He was given authority through the Father - so if he thought they shouldn't be observed He had the authority to stop them in their entirety at the moment He set foot on this earth, but he didn't. He didn't "need" salvation so it can't be implied that He observed them for that purpose. Yes Jesus was a Jew, but there were times that he spoke out openly against the Pharisees and called them hypocrites, but despite that He still celebrated the Jewish holidays.

We aren't required as Christians to observe them, but I think it's far fetched to say that any Christian is wrong for doing so, AS LONG AS they are doing it out of a desire to have a closer relationship with God and not just for appearances.

SIG
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:24 PM
Nice first post! I look forward to more!

SIG
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:30 PM
I have a feeling this could turn into a long thread...:lol:

Hey! I have the gift of prophecy!

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2008, 12:21 AM
Nice first post! I look forward to more!That was an excellent first offering here, wasn't it! :D And as for your gift of prophecy, these type of threads always turn into long threads, don't they? :lol:

SIG
Sep 24th 2008, 01:42 AM
Does that....mean....I DON'T have...the gift....of prophecy?....(sniff)....

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2008, 04:07 AM
Have you ever considered what God wants instead of what you want? That perhaps it's all about Him and not about us?

Just an idea here....We are not getting along well are we?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2008, 10:14 AM
Does that....mean....I DON'T have...the gift....of prophecy?....(sniff)....Continue to hone this 'gift' and He will make it clear to you! :D

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2008, 10:19 AM
We are not getting along well are we?Oh, I think the dialog has been a good one! :D We don't all agree on all points :dunno: so what? :D There's no need to be carbon copies of each other. Let us each strive to be copies of Him! ;)

God Bless!