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Ashley274
Sep 20th 2008, 05:24 AM
I am going to try to make this short. A friend of mine is not a Christian and I am trying to help move him towards the Lord...He was a Catholic (PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC THREAD) and knows the Bible ....he knows and believes that Jesus was a good man and set good rules...However , in talking he said "What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted" I told him I am not history bright but off the top of my head it could be they died because people do bad things and also they may have put their faith in the relic or idoltry and not on the Lord....I told him I would get back to him on it....I may have said too that maybe God wasn't behind this war deal. I somewhat think he held this arguement because he still can't understand why his dad died when he was 14 and he prayed to Jesus as his dad was dying and not long ago his mom died ..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it

crossnote
Sep 20th 2008, 05:39 AM
I am going to try to make this short. A friend of mine is not a Christian and I am trying to help move him towards the Lord...He was a Catholic (PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC THREAD) and knows the Bible ....he knows and believes that Jesus was a good man and set good rules...However , in talking he said "What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted" I told him I am not history bright but off the top of my head it could be they died because people do bad things and also they may have put their faith in the relic or idoltry and not on the Lord....I told him I would get back to him on it....I may have said too that maybe God wasn't behind this war deal. I somewhat think he held this arguement because he still can't understand why his dad died when he was 14 and he prayed to Jesus as his dad was dying and not long ago his mom died ..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it

I won't comment on the Crusades except that that door swings both ways and neither way is toward Christ. Your friend said that Jesus is "a good man and set good rules". Tell him 'yes, not only was he a good man but he never sinned. And as far as setting rules, Jesus set a good rule. Whoever believes in Me shall never die' (Jn 11).
I feel for his losing his parents at a young age but just as his Crusades question we cannot use the effects of sin as in excuse to hide behind our own sin. Christ still forgives those who come in repentance unto Him as it seems his mother can even now testify.

scourge39
Sep 20th 2008, 06:50 AM
Buy your friend a copy of The New Concise History of the Crusades by Thomas F. Madden. It's the most recent, even-handed history of the Crusades written to date. Most of what is taught in history books about the Crusades is based on hearsay, and in some cases, Islamic sympathy. There was no 'children's crusade.' That was actually a gathering of the poor that wasn't even labeled a crusade by the Church. After examining both the Christian and Muslim sides, I see the crusades as a necessary offense against an already hostile and bloodthirsty Islamic regime. The tragedy is that most historians write about the Crusades from a Muslim perspective. Madden's book is the balanced history of the Crusades written to date. It will show you that there's more fiction than fact underlying most of what people say about them. Most people, including Christians, who decry the Crusades are really clueless about the subject. They need to get their facts straight before attempting to address them.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 20th 2008, 01:28 PM
I won't comment on the Crusades except that that door swings both ways and neither way is toward Christ. Your friend said that Jesus is "a good man and set good rules". Tell him 'yes, not only was he a good man but he never sinned. And as far as setting rules, Jesus set a good rule. Whoever believes in Me shall never die' (Jn 11).
I feel for his losing his parents at a young age but just as his Crusades question we cannot use the effects of sin as in excuse to hide behind our own sin. Christ still forgives those who come in repentance unto Him as it seems his mother can even now testify.I would also add that Jesus told his listeners that "whoever has seen Me has seen the Father." So this "good man" was either God in the flesh or a bold-faced liar. So which one is it?????

Ashley274
Sep 21st 2008, 05:23 AM
Thank you LitLuke, Crossnote and Scourge for your thoughtful and kind replies....I am also looking for a way to reply to him as to why God allowed His people who held and carried His Holy Relics (I dunno what they were and am really being pressed on all sides with a roof leak a bad car issue..and damage from the 10 inches of water that ruined a good deal of my flooring to look it up) believing in Him to be killed HIS OWN PEOPLE???....How do I reply other than what I said? I really don't want this dude to go to hell and am worried I am the only witness he will ever have at this point...

I feel I cannot not answer because he will think a Christian has no answer to this ........and thus he will stay where he is at.....just believing there is SOME KINDA BEING ...Like a God but not the God WE all know :(

I am so tired I just can't think how to address it as he asked it....

thanks :hug:

Richard H
Sep 21st 2008, 05:50 AM
Hi Ashley,
I'm glad that you're concerned for your friend and talking to him about the Lord.
As for your friend's question:


"What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted"


There were many Christians and non-Christians who died in the period called the Crusades.
The reason the "holy relics" did not save any lives is because relics do not have the power of salvation.

Only Jesus has that power. It isn't being saved from earthly death, because everyone must die sooner or later.
Rather His power saves us from eternal death.

When we put our faith in Him and not in objects, He gives us eternal life and He is able to keep us until that time.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Joh 10:28

If you want pointers on where to go from here, there're plenty of qualified people here to help you. Just ask.

Richard

Ashley274
Sep 21st 2008, 06:30 AM
Thank you Richard H :hug: I have a lot of time to look into this and work on it so I am more prepared when I see him again ..it could be months...I did mention Idolary to him and how they may have put their faith in the relics...but I didn't think to add the part on people dying and the promise of eternal life for believers....duh where was my head lol...but it was after 3 AM and his question took me by surprise ...being a history one :eek: I will use what you have suggested as well as everyone else in here and hope others add as time goes by because I can't let him down..Part of me really thinks deep down he is very mad at God and that is blocking his getting closer..if he can UNDERSTAND why God SEEMS to let believers down....maybe he can get past that and grab Jesus.

This is my dream and quest to help bring him to our Lord :hug:

Sold Out
Sep 21st 2008, 04:14 PM
..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it

Before you meet again, you need to do two things:

1) Commit to present the Gospel to him FIRST.
2) Study up on the Crusades.

The first and most important thing you need to communicate to him is the Gospel. The power of salvation is in the GOSPEL, not your attempts to push aside the issue of the Crusades. That is a non-heaven-or-hell issue. Now he may still need that question answered, but don't move any further without sharing the Gospel first.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" Rom 1:16

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." I Thes 1:5

petepet
Sep 21st 2008, 05:08 PM
I am going to try to make this short. A friend of mine is not a Christian and I am trying to help move him towards the Lord...He was a Catholic (PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC THREAD) and knows the Bible ....he knows and believes that Jesus was a good man and set good rules...However , in talking he said "What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted" I told him I am not history bright but off the top of my head it could be they died because people do bad things and also they may have put their faith in the relic or idoltry and not on the Lord....I told him I would get back to him on it....I may have said too that maybe God wasn't behind this war deal. I somewhat think he held this arguement because he still can't understand why his dad died when he was 14 and he prayed to Jesus as his dad was dying and not long ago his mom died ..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it

Hi The idea behind the crusades was initially a good one. Christian pilgrims on the way to Jerusalem were being killed by Muslims (for all kinds of reasons, religious and non-religious). Thus the idea was to make the way safe for Christians.

Unfortunately many in what was called the Christian world (but was on the whole no more Christian than many so-called Christian countries today) saw the crusades as an opportunity to gain land and become rich. Thus many were not fighting for Christ, but for greed and riches with Christ as the excuse. Others were doing it for the love of adventure. And even the more genuine (like Richard I of England) were doing the wrong thing from God's viewpoint. Jesus taught that we must not use violence in order advance the Gospel. Thus they had no right to special protection.

In those days the Roman Catholic church believed in holy relics (what were supposed to be connected with what they called 'saints', e.g, a saint's bone, or a piece of the cross, etc). They thought that if they carried these holy relics God (or the saint) would protect them. Of course it did not work. No relic can possibly do such a thing. (Your friend needs to get sorted out about relics). So his argument from the crusades is a red herring. Point out that it is his view of God that is wrong. God is not controlled by relics (especially as very few are genuine).

But in the end he needs to recognise that Jesus Christ clearly demonstrated that He was and is the true God. Once he has come to recognise that he can then consider how this can provide him with the means of salvation.

Best wishes.

Ashley274
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:35 AM
Sold Out and PetePet thank you both very much..I am going to read read and re-read all the replies ,,,maybe copy parts too...I do want to explain HE KNOWS the Gospel he went to christian school his whole life....from 1st grade to graduation....that is why I need the info on the crusades. I am also glad you told me more about the relics..I still think he is just mad at God ...but we need to pray and please don't be shy about helping me on this thread because it is important....He also mentioned HOW DO WE EXPLAIN CROMAGUM(SP) MAN because Science now sez they were not human...I said my guess was either science was wrong AGAIN or they were another form or fallen angels or angels but I would look into it..He gave me a book to read..I think the title is WHO REALLY WROTE THE BIBLE...he said its not Moses like they said in the first 5 books..I disagree but know there are time issues ugghhhh lol.

Thanks all

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:46 PM
Sold Out and PetePet thank you both very much..I am going to read read and re-read all the replies ,,,maybe copy parts too...I do want to explain HE KNOWS the Gospel he went to christian school his whole life....from 1st grade to graduation....that is why I need the info on the crusades. I am also glad you told me more about the relics..I still think he is just mad at God ...but we need to pray and please don't be shy about helping me on this thread because it is important....He also mentioned HOW DO WE EXPLAIN CROMAGUM(SP) MAN because Science now sez they were not human...I said my guess was either science was wrong AGAIN or they were another form or fallen angels or angels but I would look into it..He gave me a book to read..I think the title is WHO REALLY WROTE THE BIBLE...he said its not Moses like they said in the first 5 books..I disagree but know there are time issues ugghhhh lol.

Thanks all

You say he knows the Gospel, but I doubt he knows the biblical Gospel, as it is not normally taught in the Catholic church.

I also have some documentation on how we got our bible.

Do you know how to define the Gospel biblically?

keck553
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:25 PM
Ashley,

I pray for you, that God speaks through you according to His will and I pray for your friend. The truth lies in the Word of God, not in the actions, deeds or writings of men. What men did and still do falls short of the glory of God. I would suggest your friend run from the false teachings and actions of men, and draw toward God's truth.

It's even more difficult to separate the atoning work of Jesus and what evil was done in His Name when witnessing to a Jew. 2000 years of misery in the name of thier Jewish Messih is difficult to over come, but staying in power of the Word of God, ALL of it, not just the last 1/3rd can persent miracles that no man can do by his own effort.
Study the Word of God with prayer your rabbi Jesus will teach you and give you the answers for this particular circumstance. Nothning's too difficult for God.

seamus414
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:11 PM
I am going to try to make this short. A friend of mine is not a Christian and I am trying to help move him towards the Lord...He was a Catholic (PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC THREAD) and knows the Bible ....he knows and believes that Jesus was a good man and set good rules...However , in talking he said "What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted" I told him I am not history bright but off the top of my head it could be they died because people do bad things and also they may have put their faith in the relic or idoltry and not on the Lord....I told him I would get back to him on it....I may have said too that maybe God wasn't behind this war deal. I somewhat think he held this arguement because he still can't understand why his dad died when he was 14 and he prayed to Jesus as his dad was dying and not long ago his mom died ..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it


Some things to consider:

First, the Crusades started out as a defensive measure. The Muslims were slaughtering Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land. For many years the Holy Land was open to anyone who wanted to visit the Holy Sites. However, with ever growing control by Muslims, the HOly Land became restricted and Christians there under attack and Christian holy sites being blasphemed. Christians gathered together to take the Holy Land back and to make it safe for Christians again. This followed, of course, with a back-and-forth sort of war which sparked additional Crusades to counter an advance by the Muslims and so on.

Second, the days of the Crusades, the lines between Church and State were blurred if non-existent. The State used the CHurch and the Church became corrupted by the State. As a result, political wars and political ends saw various monarchs use the Church to advance their own political ends. These actions were not based upon Christian teaching, defense of CHristians, or for Christian purposes. The Church was merely used as a tool by the powers that be and the Prelates of the day were either powerless to stop it or were political appointees. It is significant to note, however, that NO TEACHING of the Christian church changed due to the Crusades.

Third, relics were only marginally involved if at all. There really is only once incident when someone miraculously found the spear that pierced Christ's side. That Christ worked a miracle this one time does not mean that relics were always a part of the Crusades.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:04 PM
I am going to try to make this short. A friend of mine is not a Christian and I am trying to help move him towards the Lord...He was a Catholic (PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC THREAD) and knows the Bible ....he knows and believes that Jesus was a good man and set good rules...However , in talking he said "What about the crusades, they carried holy relics of God and they were slaughted" I told him I am not history bright but off the top of my head it could be they died because people do bad things and also they may have put their faith in the relic or idoltry and not on the Lord....I told him I would get back to him on it....I may have said too that maybe God wasn't behind this war deal. I somewhat think he held this arguement because he still can't understand why his dad died when he was 14 and he prayed to Jesus as his dad was dying and not long ago his mom died ..she was very kind and a good christian and this is part of why he walked away.....Help me please deal with the crusade deal ..I don't know what relics they had or what he is talking about to counter it


Well the Crusades were really a response to the Muslim invasion of Europe proper in 711AD (the Muslims had already invaded the Eastern Roman Empire [Byzantine Empire] in the 7th century). It was also a strategic move to prevent the fall of Constantinople, thus allowing the Muslims to open both a Western and Eastern front in the war against Europe.

As for the relics - no such holy relics exist. Never did and never will. They were 'relics' because the Church had adopted pagan practices of "sanctified objects." In other words, they might have viewed the relics as holding special power, but God didn't...and in the end that's the view that matters.

Ashley274
Sep 24th 2008, 04:25 AM
(( Sold Out, KECK, Seamus, and AK......THANK YOU :hug::pp I am going to print these and study them more when I come close to seeing him again.....I apprecaite all the replies and prayers, concern and information..I will blot your names out should I need to print them...

One thing I am thrilled with is....when he asked me that...I closed my eyes fast and did a silent prayer of help me God :spin: and from all I read I answered him correctly when I said my guess was ..they put their faith in Idols (relics) and not in Him and people do stupid or bad things..I THINK I may have said also How do we know God told them to go to war.....I recall he said THEY HAD THE RELICS ...I again said....Icons not faith in God...so I can see THAT will be a key area....This makes me feel great because I did wing it. :hug::pray:

My heart's Desire
Sep 24th 2008, 05:56 AM
I'm going to agree with what some others have said about continuing to present Christ and the Gospel to him and lots of prayer for him.

Some people do need answers to things such as Crusades etc but most of the time they will get you into all of this to keep one away from the arguments that are most important like their personal salvation. Keeping someone sidetracked is the best way to stay away from the crucial.

seamus414
Sep 24th 2008, 08:00 PM
(( Sold Out, KECK, Seamus, and AK......THANK YOU :hug::pp I am going to print these and study them more when I come close to seeing him again.....I apprecaite all the replies and prayers, concern and information..I will blot your names out should I need to print them...

One thing I am thrilled with is....when he asked me that...I closed my eyes fast and did a silent prayer of help me God :spin: and from all I read I answered him correctly when I said my guess was ..they put their faith in Idols (relics) and not in Him and people do stupid or bad things..I THINK I may have said also How do we know God told them to go to war.....I recall he said THEY HAD THE RELICS ...I again said....Icons not faith in God...so I can see THAT will be a key area....This makes me feel great because I did wing it. :hug::pray:

Just remember that sacred relics are a perfectly acceptable tool to assist someone in growing closer to the Lord. SOmething real and tangible can be a great help and tool for one's spiritual development. The problem arises when these tools become ends in and of themselves or seen as good luck charms or magical or superstitious. That may have been a problem during the Crusades certainly, but just make it clear that it was the abuse of relics that was the problem, not the relics themselves.

keck553
Sep 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
God said 'no graven images' asherah's etc for a good reason. He knows us and our weaknessess a lot better than we do. We should trust His Word and not our own understanding concerning this.