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BrckBrln
Sep 20th 2008, 11:51 PM
I guess this is the right place to put this cause I gots a question. One of the arguments for God is the order of the universe and that it's so complex and just perfect for life. It's thought that chance just couldn't produce this but my question is why not? If there is a chance that something could happen, however slight it may be, should we be super surprised if it does happen or use this as an argument for God's existence?

Now don't get me wrong, I agree one hundred percent that the complexity and order in the universe is proof for God but I'm just not sure it's a good argument to use to try and convert somebody. I only believe that because I already believe in God and this just reinforces my belief. If I was an atheist and somebody presented me with this argument that complexity and order in the universe is proof for God then I would just say that it's all chance and we got lucky. And I think that's perfectly understandable because I believe that if there is a chance that something can happen then we shouldn't be terribly surprised if it happens.

Now, how the universe came to be, I think, is a good argument for God's existence because out of nothing comes nothing and a self sustaining universe has problems. But the idea that chance can't bring order is not the best argument for God I think. Does anybody else see it this way or am I completely wrong?

apothanein kerdos
Sep 21st 2008, 12:41 AM
I guess this is the right place to put this cause I gots a question. One of the arguments for God is the order of the universe and that it's so complex and just perfect for life. It's thought that chance just couldn't produce this but my question is why not? If there is a chance that something could happen, however slight it may be, should we be super surprised if it does happen or use this as an argument for God's existence?

Now don't get me wrong, I agree one hundred percent that the complexity and order in the universe is proof for God but I'm just not sure it's a good argument to use to try and convert somebody. I only believe that because I already believe in God and this just reinforces my belief. If I was an atheist and somebody presented me with this argument that complexity and order in the universe is proof for God then I would just say that it's all chance and we got lucky. And I think that's perfectly understandable because I believe that if there is a chance that something can happen then we shouldn't be terribly surprised if it happens.

Now, how the universe came to be, I think, is a good argument for God's existence because out of nothing comes nothing and a self sustaining universe has problems. But the idea that chance can't bring order is not the best argument for God I think. Does anybody else see it this way or am I completely wrong?


Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.


Just because there's a chance for all of this to have occurred randomly, it doesn't mean it's a viable chance. There are "possible worlds" and "non-viable worlds." It might be possible that unicorns exist and little elves, fairies, and leprechauns are currently living under a bed, but if you taught that you'd look quite silly for believing it.

Likewise, you can believe everything happened by chance, but according to the odds of it occurring that way you'd look quite silly believing such a thing. I think there are better arguments to us, but this one certainly isn't a bad one. It simply shows the insurmountable odds that everything could have "just occurred."

BrckBrln
Sep 21st 2008, 12:53 AM
Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.

This just shows my point that there is a chance. And if them two did ever end up together would you call someone silly for actually believing that they are together? It was a longshot but still a shot. That's why I think the argument is a pretty bad one but one that can confirm what you already believe.

zombieCat
Sep 21st 2008, 01:56 AM
Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance. Nice...a man after my own heart :)

Semi-tortured
Sep 21st 2008, 04:26 AM
Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.

Later....

Lloyd: Husband? Wait a minute... what was all that 'one in a million' talk?

Joe King
Sep 21st 2008, 06:49 AM
Speaking of chance, the "chance" that anyone else but Jesus could fulfill all of the prophecies that he did, would equal 1 out of EVERY SINGLE ATOM IN THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!!

not atom on earth, UNIVERSE

Sold Out
Sep 21st 2008, 04:35 PM
Now, how the universe came to be, I think, is a good argument for God's existence because out of nothing comes nothing and a self sustaining universe has problems. But the idea that chance can't bring order is not the best argument for God I think. Does anybody else see it this way or am I completely wrong?

I'll answer your question with a question...has order EVER come out of chaos? (i.e. Big Bang Theory)

scourge39
Sep 21st 2008, 05:02 PM
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11, NIV)

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11, KJV)

Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11, ESV)

faroutinmt
Sep 21st 2008, 08:19 PM
It's a little bit deeper than that. Chance and probability cannot answer the core questions about the existence of the universe or God.

If energy is neither created nor destroyed, but only converted, where did all the energy in the universe come from? Where did all the matter in the universe come from? How does cognitive thought and reason come from an atomic compound? Since we now see no new natural laws being created, where did the natural laws come from to begin with?

It is truly unreasonable to not believe in God.

BrckBrln
Sep 21st 2008, 08:42 PM
It's a little bit deeper than that. Chance and probability cannot answer the core questions about the existence of the universe or God.

If energy is neither created nor destroyed, but only converted, where did all the energy in the universe come from? Where did all the matter in the universe come from? How does cognitive thought and reason come from an atomic compound? Since we now see no new natural laws being created, where did the natural laws come from to begin with?

It is truly unreasonable to not believe in God.

As I said, the origin of the universe is a good argument but not the complexity and order found in the universe, which I guess is an off shoot of the origin argument. I think that just arguing from order in the universe is not the way to go since it can be explained away by chance plus time.

faroutinmt
Sep 21st 2008, 08:51 PM
As I said, the origin of the universe is a good argument but not the complexity and order found in the universe, which I guess is an off shoot of the origin argument. I think that just arguing from order in the universe is not the way to go since it can be explained away by chance plus time.

Chance and probability can never be an argument for design. Chance never created anything. Chance and probability do not govern God anyway. There is no chance and probability with him. Chance and probability are ideas reasoned by humans who do not know the future. Of course, the concepts can work (by chance, of course), but are never guarantees, and therefore cannot be used to provide evidence for cause or non-cause.

"What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:19, 20

markedward
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:31 AM
I remember reading somewhere that the amount of time that it would have taken for the earth to have properly positioned itself, for the sun to have become the right size and temperature, for the earth to form its atmosphere, then to arbitrarily form life, would have taken so long to happen, than our sun should have already collapsed on itself.

...

As you can tell, I'm not much of a scientist. But does anyone else have information on this?

Joe King
Sep 22nd 2008, 02:13 AM
I remember reading somewhere that the amount of time that it would have taken for the earth to have properly positioned itself, for the sun to have become the right size and temperature, for the earth to form its atmosphere, then to arbitrarily form life, would have taken so long to happen, than our sun should have already collapsed on itself.

...

As you can tell, I'm not much of a scientist. But does anyone else have information on this?

I wonder why that's not in science books:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing. I love facts like that.

BrckBrln
Sep 22nd 2008, 02:16 AM
I wonder why that's not in science books:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing. I love facts like that.

I think you should wait and see the sources on that before you claim fact on something you read from somebody who read something.

lendtay
Sep 22nd 2008, 02:33 AM
I think the universe is evidence of an intelligent designer. Hard to believe it could have all happened "by chance".

Scientists and atheists do not have all the answers, even if they think they do.

crawfish
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:49 PM
I guess this is the right place to put this cause I gots a question. One of the arguments for God is the order of the universe and that it's so complex and just perfect for life. It's thought that chance just couldn't produce this but my question is why not? If there is a chance that something could happen, however slight it may be, should we be super surprised if it does happen or use this as an argument for God's existence?

Now don't get me wrong, I agree one hundred percent that the complexity and order in the universe is proof for God but I'm just not sure it's a good argument to use to try and convert somebody. I only believe that because I already believe in God and this just reinforces my belief. If I was an atheist and somebody presented me with this argument that complexity and order in the universe is proof for God then I would just say that it's all chance and we got lucky. And I think that's perfectly understandable because I believe that if there is a chance that something can happen then we shouldn't be terribly surprised if it happens.

Now, how the universe came to be, I think, is a good argument for God's existence because out of nothing comes nothing and a self sustaining universe has problems. But the idea that chance can't bring order is not the best argument for God I think. Does anybody else see it this way or am I completely wrong?


Here's why that argument fails:

Imagine that you throw a die one billion times, writing down the results. What were the chances that you would have rolled that EXACT result? Incredibly far-fetched. However, the chance that you would get a result of one billion numbers, each from 1-6, is exactly 1 in 1.

Now imagine that you throw the die 999,999 times; what are the chances that the last digit will be a five? One in six, right? Each single step consists of very likely odds. You can't judge the entire thing based on some perceived probability, because the only way that makes something "unlikely" is if that was the plan all along. If the system is truly random and directionless, then you can say the system just guided itself to the point it is at, and it was guaranteed to come to some result by this point anyway.

You see, each step in any process limits the options for the next step, and whichever option happens guides the limits for the next step. And so on.

I do believe that the majesty and complexity of our universe is a sign of God's utter power and glory. But that is, quite honestly, not a compelling reason for a nonbeliever to change their mind - chance does work things out for those who choose to accept it. The turning point will most likely be from the heart and not the head (http://www.rhchurch.org/pages/cardboard-testimonies/).

crawfish
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:57 PM
I'll answer your question with a question...has order EVER come out of chaos? (i.e. Big Bang Theory)

This is only valid within a closed system. The rule allows individual components of the system to become more ordered as long as the overall entropy decreases.

The earth (or our solar system or galaxy for that matter) is not a closed system.