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Equipped_4_Love
Sep 21st 2008, 04:58 PM
Is this statement completely accurate?!

After all, our salvation did come at a price, and that price was the blood of Christ. Salvation was never free, per se, because there was always a penalty involved.

So, then, while I agree that salvation is a gift from God, I disagree that it is completely free.

What do you guys think?

HisLeast
Sep 21st 2008, 05:16 PM
Nothing is ever free when you include all parties in your perspective. However, exclusively from our perspective its free, as the sacrifice was not ours to make.

Sold Out
Sep 21st 2008, 05:23 PM
Is this statement completely accurate?!

After all, our salvation did come at a price, and that price was the blood of Christ. Salvation was never free, per se, because there was always a penalty involved.

So, then, while I agree that salvation is a gift from God, I disagree that it is completely free.

What do you guys think?


It cost US nothing...so for us it is free.

It cost Jesus everything.

chal
Sep 21st 2008, 05:38 PM
Is this statement completely accurate?!

After all, our salvation did come at a price, and that price was the blood of Christ. Salvation was never free, per se, because there was always a penalty involved.

So, then, while I agree that salvation is a gift from God, I disagree that it is completely free.

What do you guys think?

chal> I think we need to discuss these scriptures.

Romans 5:15-16 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

free gift: charisma, Greek 5486, Strong’s
charisma, khar'-is-mah; from Greek 5483 (charizomai); a (divine) gratuity, i.e. deliverance (from danger or passion); (special) a (spiritual) endowment, i.e. (subject) religious qualification, or (objective) miraculous faculty :- (free) gift.

chal> I have heard it said that salvation is free, but it ain't cheap.

RJ Mac
Sep 21st 2008, 08:45 PM
I believe by the phrase the free gift God is saying that He didn't owe it
to men to send His Son to die on the cross. There was nothing we did
that caused God to send His Son. it was a free (gracious) gift.
I don't believe this has reference to what we need to do to accept the gift.

Everyone agrees you have to do something to get salvation. You have to
repent, quit sinning, you have to pray for Jesus to come into your heart,
you have to read your Bible, you have to get into fellowship with the saints,
you have to be immersed, but everyone has there one thing, totally
disregarding all the other things. Why not put it all together and if the Bible
says it do it.

We have to do something to receive the gift of God's grace, why strive to
see what little we have to do, instead shouldn't we strive to see all we
should do to be pleasing to God?

RJ

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 21st 2008, 10:19 PM
chal> I think we need to discuss these scriptures.

Romans 5:15-16 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

free gift: charisma, Greek 5486, Strong’s
charisma, khar'-is-mah; from Greek 5483 (charizomai); a (divine) gratuity, i.e. deliverance (from danger or passion); (special) a (spiritual) endowment, i.e. (subject) religious qualification, or (objective) miraculous faculty :- (free) gift.

chal> I have heard it said that salvation is free, but it ain't cheap.

Thank you, chal. I guess I neglected those scriptures.

When you point out the definition in Strong's, it makes much more sense.....free on our part, although Christ purchased us through His atoning sacrifice. That's why the Scripture says that he paid the penalty for our death.

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:40 AM
Thank you, chal. I guess I neglected those scriptures.

When you point out the definition in Strong's, it makes much more sense.....free on our part, although Christ purchased us through His atoning sacrifice. That's why the Scripture says that he paid the penalty for our death.

I think if we all knew how much Christ gave up to save us, we would value our salvation all the more. Not only did He become a human and take on the sins of all mankind on the cross, but He also gave up certain aspects of His equality with the other two persons of the trinity - for all eternity. The price for sin is eternal and requires an eternal sacrifice.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." I Corinthians 15:24-28

When it's all said and done, Christ will be subject to the Father. This word 'subject' is a military term, meaning 'to rank under'. Christ gave up this equality as part of the price for our sins!

And...He will also be confined to His resurrected body for all eternity.

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:14 AM
I think if we all knew how much Christ gave up to save us, we would value our salvation all the more. Not only did He become a human and take on the sins of all mankind on the cross, but He also gave up certain aspects of His equality with the other two persons of the trinity - for all eternity. The price for sin is eternal and requires an eternal sacrifice.

When it's all said and done, Christ will be subject to the Father. This word 'subject' is a military term, meaning 'to rank under'. Christ gave up this equality as part of the price for our sins!

And...He will also be confined to His resurrected body for all eternity.

SoldOut.....I had never realized this truth, but it makes perfect sense. This just completely blew me away, and I just want to say a million times thank you, as you have put things into a deeper perspective for me.

It never really occurred to me that Christ's humility would be an eternal reality....I just thought that this was a temporary condition while He was on earth. I have been struggling a lot with doubts re: Christ's love for me....You have no idea how much your post has helped me to see that.

I am eternally grateful to my precious Lord Jesus for this incredible sacrifice.

Thank you for helping me to realize that.

chal
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:40 AM
Thank you, chal. I guess I neglected those scriptures.

When you point out the definition in Strong's, it makes much more sense.....free on our part, although Christ purchased us through His atoning sacrifice. That's why the Scripture says that he paid the penalty for our death.

chal> Bible software is great. I just searched "free gift," and then looked up the Greek definition. Sometimes we hear modern Christianese buzzwords that are not in scripture, but often they do have a basis in scripture. Discerning the difference is crucial. I think you're on the right track to be questioning and searching for the answers. I think the place to start is in the scriptures.

9Marksfan
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:16 PM
I believe by the phrase the free gift God is saying that He didn't owe it
to men to send His Son to die on the cross. There was nothing we did
that caused God to send His Son. it was a free (gracious) gift.
I don't believe this has reference to what we need to do to accept the gift.

Everyone agrees you have to do something to get salvation. You have to
repent, quit sinning, you have to pray for Jesus to come into your heart,
you have to read your Bible, you have to get into fellowship with the saints,
you have to be immersed, but everyone has there one thing, totally
disregarding all the other things. Why not put it all together and if the Bible
says it do it.

We have to do something to receive the gift of God's grace, why strive to
see what little we have to do, instead shouldn't we strive to see all we
should do to be pleasing to God?

RJ

I don't believe we have to do anything to receive God's grace. Except receive it. The entrance fee is zip. The annual subscription thereafter is - everything you've got! :)

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:29 PM
SoldOut.....I had never realized this truth, but it makes perfect sense. This just completely blew me away, and I just want to say a million times thank you, as you have put things into a deeper perspective for me.

It never really occurred to me that Christ's humility would be an eternal reality....I just thought that this was a temporary condition while He was on earth. I have been struggling a lot with doubts re: Christ's love for me....You have no idea how much your post has helped me to see that.

I am eternally grateful to my precious Lord Jesus for this incredible sacrifice.

Thank you for helping me to realize that.

You are so welcome. It blew me away as well. I have a deeper appreciation for my salvation and my Savior as a result.

Scruffy Kid
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:18 PM
I admire and appreciate many of Sold Out's posts. And that Christ has given a sacrifice of eternal duration and infinite worth I fully affirm. The risen Christ bears the scars of His passion, and ascends to heaven bearing them: what he did in humbling himself is part of his essential identity, and is utterly awesome.

Nevertheless I must vigorously explain that Christ never "gave up his equality with God" in the sense of losing that equality that he had. God is eternal -- living not in our time and space, but in the fullness of His own life and presence. God the Lord -- I am that I am, YHWH -- is eternal, and his nature does not change. God eternally (beyond time and space) subsists as three persons in one God. Concerning these three "in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another" and "the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and their majesty co-equal" so that in all things "the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped." It is not possible that God should change, or cease to be what he is.

In humbling himself, emptying himself and becoming man, God the Son enacts, in His incarnation, the very life of God as Creator, and the life of love of the Holy Trinity in their eternal love, one for another. God the Son, uniquely, takes on the role of human being, and is, as human being, subject to God (and even to sinful people) and finally to death in a way that, in the divine nature, he could not be. But He remains immortal: death cannot hold Him. And He remains God, equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is fully God and fully man.

This is what the Bible teaches, and what the Church has always and everywhere taught.


A bit more detail about why I hold this to be true

In taking on human nature Christ did not cease to have an eternal existence as God; and he did not cease to possess the Divine Nature. Rather, the one person of the eternal Son and Word entered our time and space, and as fully human being, united His human nature with His divine nature. Thus He was "inferior to" the Father "as touching his manhood" but "equal" as touching His Godhead" (i.e. His Divine Nature). There is but one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: there are not three Gods. Thus God the Son could not cease to be God equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. His "emptying himself" refers to his taking on a life which was fully and wholly the life of a human being -- not to his losing the Divine Nature.

Moreover, though God the Father did not take on human flesh, it remains true that Jesus spoke rightly in saying (in response to Philip's request to "show us the Father") that "He who has seen me has seen the Father." Thus the character and personhood of Christ is the true image of the Father and of Who He Is. Accordingly, it must be the case that the humility of Christ reflects the humility of the Father, for (John 5:19) "the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise."

The Humility that we see in Christ Jesus is the Humility of God the Father, just as the Holiness, the Love, the Righteousness that is Christ's is the Holiness, the Love, the Righteousness that is the Father's (and the Holy Spirit's). Christ, being God, in very nature (en morphe Theou), took upon himself the very nature of a slave (so emptied himself that he was found en morphe doulou). Thus Christ, in His becoming a human being and dying for our sins, enacts, acts out in human form, the eternal life and action of the Father.

God is he "who humbles himself to behold what is in heaven and earth". God, as creator, and as Father of all, has chosen -- even apart from our sins, and sending His son to be the propitiation for our sins -- to be our servant! What can we give the Lord? How can we repay him for all He has done for us: for this world, and our life, and our health and joys and families? Nothing. We cannot repay him. But He continually is our servant: without His help, I cannot draw a breath, or think a thought, or exist at all. I can be, and can be well, only because God in His love sustains me in being. Therefore, He is (chooses to be) our servant, even as He is our Father.

For as every parent knows, to be a parent, to be a Father, is to be a slave. When a baby is born, it can do nothing for its parents: they must feed it, wash it, amuse it, hold it, care for it, change it. They become -- does not every parent experience it -- the baby's servants! This service does not generally become a lot easier when the baby becomes a teenager! Nor indeed, even with a very well-behaved son or daughter when the child enters college. Rather, often the parents must serve the child with many thousands of dollars to get the kid through college. This is the very nature of love: to be a loving parent. It's the glory and majesty of love. So God is to us a Father: God is the one who "slaves" to provide for us (in the serenity and fullness of His being, to be sure) in creating and helping us who can give Him nothing, and who are completely dependent upon Him.

In humbling himself, emptying himself, then, God the Son enacts, in His incarnation, the very life of God as Creator, and the life of love of the Holy Trinity in their eternal love, one for another. God the Son, uniquely, takes on the role of human being, and is, as human being, subject to God (and even to sinful people) and finally to death in a way that, in the divine nature, he could not be. But He remains immortal: death cannot hold Him. And He remains God, equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is fully God and fully man.

Emanate
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:23 PM
I have not studied this out, but could Salvation as a free gift possibly have some ties to the freewill offerings? Perhaps a deeper understanding might be found there. Sounds like it might be worth checking out.

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:39 PM
In humbling himself, emptying himself, then, God the Son enacts, in His incarnation, the very life of God as Creator, and the life of love of the Holy Trinity in their eternal love, one for another. God the Son, uniquely, takes on the role of human being, and is, as human being, subject to God (and even to sinful people) and finally to death in a way that, in the divine nature, he could not be. But He remains immortal: death cannot hold Him. And He remains God, equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is fully God and fully man.

I do believe that we agree and perhaps it was incorrect wording on my part concerning Christ's equality with the Father. I think it would be more appropriately worded that Christ gave up certain aspects of His deity, while never ceasing to be deity. Does that make sense?

And BTW I appreciate your compliment.