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Beholding_the_Lamb
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:31 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I come from a background where I was taught that there was only one unforgivable sin and other than committing that there was no sin that could not be forgiven.
I did not understand either that we can walk a sinless life, and if we belong to the Lord, it is the nature of flesh, or the carnal nature that sins and as long as we are not practicing sin, or in willful disobedience, then our sin is covered.

However, if today I decide that I am going to not do that which I know is good, then I am commiting willful sin [Jas 4:17 ] and according to Hebrews there is NO covering for this sin, not even the blood of Jesus Christ.

We see this played out in David's life when David sinned by having Uriah the Hittite killed in battle because David was in love with Uriahs wife. The scripture says:

2Sa 12:1 And Jehovah sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds;
2Sa 12:3 but the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own morsel, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
2Sa 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him, but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
2Sa 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As Jehovah liveth, the man that hath done this is worthy to die:
2Sa 12:6 and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 and I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of Jehovah, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house; and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against Jehovah. And Nathan said unto David, Jehovah also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And Jehovah struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and stood beside him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead; for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he hearkened not unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead!

My husband and I are at a place in our lives where we only seek the "unleavened bread", meaning we don't want to add to the Word or Take away from it. We desire to understand what it is God wanted us to learn and understand to start with. Having no covering for sin is not something I was ever taught, and I do beleive that like David, if we commit a sin willfully after we have come to the knowledge of the truth, then we will receive judgement like David did. Our judgement may not always have to be "unto death" like we see in David's situation but I do beleive that it could be.
I think that the "fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries" may be something God designs to kill our carnal, fleshly nature, something that burns away the dross, or the
wood, hay, stubble.

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this, but could you, or would you please include the scripture to back up your position?

Thank you. Be Blessed:D
Rachele

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:51 AM
The writer of Hebrews is speaking of a Christian who has crossed the line of God's Mercy. Now this doesn't mean they lose their salvation (because they did nothing to earn it), it means they will suffer potential loss in 3 areas:

1) Can no longer serve God - they will be 'shelved' as a Christian. Paul was concerned this would happen to him, as he said in I. Cor 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." The greek word for 'castaway' is ADOKIMOS, which is defined:
1) not standing the test, not approved
a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

2) Loss of rewards earned from serving God. I Corinthians 3:14,15 says, "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Ezekiel 3:20 says the same thing: "Again, When a righteous man (saved) doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

3) Premature Death - Ezekiel 3:20 (above) states this, as does I Corinthians 5:1-5, "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:33 AM
Hi Rachele - and welcome to the boards!

In this letter to the Hebrews, the writer (Paul?) makes several comparisons to the old covenant system as he relates the new covenant we have in Christ.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

The once for all sacrificial offering of Christ upon the cross is not like the OT sacrifices of bulls and goats - for which there was always another available if one returned to his sin. But even under the Levitical system, if one disobeyed willfully after his offering was accepted, his sanctification could be "undone" - and the sacrifice refused so that it would be of no effect IOW. This has not changed under the new - repentance is still a requirement. When we came under the blood of Christ at the first all our past sins were forgiven and we were sanctified. The washing of the water of the word keeps our feet clean as we walk in this world. Peter did not need another bath after he had been made clean by Christ. But the warnings of returning to willful sin, knowing this truth, is to count the blood of the new covenant as if was the common sacrifice of a mere animal's blood that has sanctified us. In this way the sacrifice Christ provided for us is NOT like that under the OT. If we reject what Christ has done, there is no other way of salvation to be given us.

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

The Levitical law contained blessing and curses or you could say sowing and reaping - it had consequences for disobedience. This has not changed in that our disobedience will bring us under judgment - into the place of chastening from the Lord. Even death if one refuses to repent.

It is still a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God even though we are not under the curse of the law (Heb 10:31). Judgment begins with the house of God. (1 Pet 4:17) We must walk in the truth we have received and not deny that truth because we prefer our sin. To do so puts us outside the protection the new covenant provides by grace. We must be quick to agree with the Lord and confess our sins - repenting of them, so we can remain under grace and mercy and not come into judgment.

Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:

Again we are being shown that this principle is still applicable for the Church and that we are to be self-policing. (Mat 18:16; 2 Cor 13:5) Rooting out sin from the body to keep our sanctified position in Christ. Praying for one another daily so that we will not come under the fire of God's wrath and perhaps an early death. The danger of being given over to one's sins is still possible - God has not changed. If we end up deceived because we don't believe Him. The Exodus is our example. All the fathers who fell in the wilderness did not enter into the promise because of their unbelief. We ain't home yet... The parable of the 4 soils shows us that the life that was sown in us by the word of faith can die if we turn away or neglect it. We must covet that word which gives us hope and life.

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

To go back under the wrath of God because we will not forsake our sin is to despise the new birthright we have been given as surely as Esau did his. We have some great promises under the new covenant to assure our salvation, and we must continue walking in them. Trusting in the Lord for His mercy and power to keep us sanctified. If we care not for such things - where will that ultimately put us? I would say in a very dangerous place!

Blessings as you study His word together.

Gospel-Witness
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:36 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


<snip>

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this, but could you, or would you please include the scripture to back up your position?

Thank you. Be Blessed:D
Rachele


Rachele,

One of the problems is that many people think that this text is pointing toward your average Christian, but it doesn't. What it is aiming at is the problem of Judaizers.....those who were trying to teach new converts that they must first become circumcised Jews before becoming a "true" Christian. This heresy was one that the apostles fought with throughout the period before the Jewish Revolt of A.D. 70 and even some afterwards. Mostly, it was Gnosticism that was the heresy of the day following the destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyway, as you can see, there were many groups who challenged Christianity and were perverting the truth of the Gospel for those who were needing to hear it. I believe, and this is just an opinion, that the writer of Hebrews was addressing those who were once genuine Christians but were falling away back into Judaism, or perhaps some other belief system that was contrary to the Gospel.

There is nothing that can be done for someone who has tasted the good grace of God and then walks away, perhaps searching for something else.
Christ died once for all, but He won't do it again...He was our sacrifice for the sins of the world, and either a person accepts the free gift of salvation as God the Father has presented it to mankind or that person will be lost.
There will not be another sacrifice made at some other time, which is why these people being addressed in this text needed to know that if they left "The Way" in order to go back into Judaism there would not be anything else done for their behalf....they would be lost and facing the sure wrath of God for having neglected so great a salvation.

This is what I believe the writer of Hebrews is talking about and I hope this helps you. God bless you for seeking the truth and I know that He will guide you if you will continue to search the Bible for the answers.

My heart's Desire
Sep 22nd 2008, 01:56 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?





Thank you. Be Blessed:D
Rachele

This is what I believe in a simple way. Jesus Christ is the one sacrifice for sin. If you have knowledge of that and you willfully do not accept that sacrifice for SIN and look for another way, then one has no other choice but to expect judgment for there is NO other sacrifice for Sin. Having rejected that way then there is no other sacrifice to be found, for Jesus Christ is the ONLY way. Looking for a different way is trodding under foot the blood of the covenant.

9Marksfan
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:48 PM
I think there is some truth in the contention that there is no covering for wilful sin - the OT is full of covering for "accidental" sins and David asked to be kept from "presumptuous" sins. However, we are also told that the blood of Jesus Christ [God's] Son cleanses us from ALL sin" - automatically? No - for those who walk in the light and confess their sins.

Now - I do not believe that we are meant to live in a constant state of anxiety and lack of assurance, worrying if we have committed a sin for which there is no sacrifice - what I believe is the key here (and in parallel passages like 1 Jn 3:9) is the Greek tense, which is continuous present - I truly believe that there IS no sacrifice for those who "keep on sinning" because they show that they have never been truly regenerate - if they were, they would NOT keep on sinning (Paul Washer is great on this - as is John Piper). So ultimately, the benefits of the cross will be of no use to them at all - for they will end up as reprobates and apostates.....

If we are those who walk in the light and confess our sins and war against them, we will not be in danger of committing sins for which there is no covering and will not end up like Esau or Judas - regretting our sin but never being able to come to repent of it truly....

Teke
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:01 PM
[LEFT]Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I come from a background where I was taught that there was only one unforgivable sin and other than committing that there was no sin that could not be forgiven.
I did not understand either that we can walk a sinless life, and if we belong to the Lord, it is the nature of flesh, or the carnal nature that sins and as long as we are not practicing sin, or in willful disobedience, then our sin is covered.

However, if today I decide that I am going to not do that which I know is good, then I am commiting willful sin [Jas 4:17 ] and according to Hebrews there is NO covering for this sin, not even the blood of Jesus Christ.

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this, but could you, or would you please include the scripture to back up your position?

Thank you. Be Blessed:D
Rachele
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For sure sin carries consequences with it. Read the sober warning in Hebrews 6:4-6, which is a warning to those who have apostatized. Meaning those who after being baptized have rejected Christ and His salvation.

These verses from Hebrews 6 have been used historically by the church in discussing repentance. Examples are Tertullian, the Montanists and other schismatics, who used these verses in arguing that there is no repentance from apostasy. However, according to church history, the church holds that those who apostatize can repent and be brought back into the church. (Canons VIII, X and XIV of 1 Nicea, Canon II of St Gregory of Nyssa, and the Canons of the council of Ancyra, AD 314) But such "second" conversions are rare, hence the warning in Hebrews 6.

Many sins are willful, but "sin willfully" (10:26) here means defiant sin or a deliberate repudiation of God. Christ is the offering for all sin, voluntary or involuntary, and this demonstrates God's great grace toward us. But if we deliberately and with full knowledge reject Christ's all encompassing and final sacrifice, then where can we turn to obtain forgiveness.

Tanya~
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:24 PM
The context is that Jesus' sacrifice has fulfilled all of the law. The sacrifices in the law of Moses were not sufficient to take away sin. Through Christ though, we have complete, perfect remission of sins. There is no necessity to continually offer sacrifices as was the case with the law. Through Christ we have access to God and have no need to offer the blood of bulls and goats.

Knowing this is to have the knowledge of the truth. If a person sins willfully by rejecting Christ after having the knowledge of the truth of Christ's perfect sacrifice, there is no sacrifice -- no offering anywhere or any kind that a person can present before God that would be acceptable.

Just as rejection of Moses' law resulted in the death penalty, so rejecting Christ results in judgment and there is nothing that can be done about it -- no sacrifice could make up for that.

keck553
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:49 PM
I think the consequences and judgements for rejecting Messiah are much, much greater and much more fearful, than rejecting God's Torah through Moshe. Paul goes through this in Hebrews with his rabbinically based "How much more...How much greater" teaching. Read it in that light.

petepet
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:10 PM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


I come from a background where I was taught that there was only one unforgivable sin and other than committing that there was no sin that could not be forgiven.
I did not understand either that we can walk a sinless life, and if we belong to the Lord, it is the nature of flesh, or the carnal nature that sins and as long as we are not practicing sin, or in willful disobedience, then our sin is covered.


However, if today I decide that I am going to not do that which I know is good, then I am commiting willful sin [Jas 4:17 ] and according to Hebrews there is NO covering for this sin, not even the blood of Jesus Christ.


We see this played out in David's life when David sinned by having Uriah the Hittite killed in battle because David was in love with Uriahs wife. The scripture says:


2Sa 12:1 And Jehovah sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds;
2Sa 12:3 but the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own morsel, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
2Sa 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him, but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
2Sa 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As Jehovah liveth, the man that hath done this is worthy to die:
2Sa 12:6 and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 and I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of Jehovah, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house; and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against Jehovah. And Nathan said unto David, Jehovah also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And Jehovah struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and stood beside him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

2Sa 12:18

And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead; for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he hearkened not unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead!


My husband and I are at a place in our lives where we only seek the "unleavened bread", meaning we don't want to add to the Word or Take away from it. We desire to understand what it is God wanted us to learn and understand to start with. Having no covering for sin is not something I was ever taught, and I do beleive that like David, if we commit a sin willfully after we have come to the knowledge of the truth, then we will receive judgement like David did. Our judgement may not always have to be "unto death" like we see in David's situation but I do beleive that it could be.
I think that the "fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries" may be something God designs to kill our carnal, fleshly nature, something that burns away the dross, or the
wood, hay, stubble.

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this, but could you, or would you please include the scripture to back up your position?

Thank you. Be Blessed:D
Rachele


I do not want for one moment to minimise the danger of sinning wilfully. It can lead to backsliding and being in the wilderness in our relationship with God. But I do not think that that is what the writer is talking about here.

The writer to the Hebrew was writing to Jewish Christians who under severe persecution and pressure were considering turning back to Judaism.

That is why he has built up his arguments about Judaism, showing that it had become invalid. Its old ritual had been replaced and was now redundant.

Here he is pointing out to these would be apostates that if they turned back to Judaism they would be turning back to something that was now invalid. For they should recognise that now, as a result of the sacrifice of Christ, there was no other sacrifice for sin. If they went back to Judaism and sinned wilfully what would they do? Offer a sin offering? But that would be useless. Sin offerings are no longer valid. Indeed outside of Christ there is no offering for sin anywhere that is valid any longer. All then that they could expect for their sins would be a certain fearful looking for of judgment. Judaism would no longer offer a way of escape for them. How foolish then to turn back to Judaism and its cancelled ritual.

But it does not mean that if I sin wilfully I cannot turn to the sacrifice of Christ. Indeed we all at times sin wilfully (although hopefully less and less as we grow in Him). Where else should we turn? He alone is the true sacrifice for sin.

Those who turn back to trusting in Jewish sin offerings have blasphemed against the cross. They have done what Israel of old did, mixed revealed truth with the old religion. Thus they would have treated the blood of the covenant, the blood of Jesus, as an unholy thing (because they had replaced it with Jewish sin offerings, suggesting that it was invalid). And they would have done despite to the Spirit of grace because they would have rejected what He had revealed about the cross of Christ.

He then continues with his plea. For them as for all men it was now Christ or judgment (a total answer to those who argue that the Jews have an alternative way of salvation).

Tanya~
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:29 PM
I think the consequences and judgements for rejecting Messiah are much, much greater and much more fearful, than rejecting God's Torah through Moshe. Paul goes through this in Hebrews with his rabbinically based "How much more...How much greater" teaching. Read it in that light.

Well yes, that's the whole point. But I was addressing the OP.

RogerW
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:13 PM
I do not want for one moment to minimise the danger of sinning wilfully. It can lead to backsliding and being in the wilderness in our relationship with God. But I do not think that that is what the writer is talking about here.

The writer to the Hebrew was writing to Jewish Christians who under severe persecution and pressure were considering turning back to Judaism.

That is why he has built up his arguments about Judaism, showing that it had become invalid. Its old ritual had been replaced and was now redundant.

Here he is pointing out to these would be apostates that if they turned back to Judaism they would be turning back to something that was now invalid. For they should recognise that now, as a result of the sacrifice of Christ, there was no other sacrifice for sin. If they went back to Judaism and sinned wilfully what would they do? Offer a sin offering? But that would be useless. Sin offerings are no longer valid. Indeed outside of Christ there is no offering for sin anywhere that is valid any longer. All then that they could expect for their sins would be a certain fearful looking for of judgment. Judaism would no longer offer a way of escape for them. How foolish then to turn back to Judaism and its cancelled ritual.

But it does not mean that if I sin wilfully I cannot turn to the sacrifice of Christ. Indeed we all at times sin wilfully (although hopefully less and less as we grow in Him). Where else should we turn? He alone is the true sacrifice for sin.

Those who turn back to trusting in Jewish sin offerings have blasphemed against the cross. They have done what Israel of old did, mixed revealed truth with the old religion. Thus they would have treated the blood of the covenant, the blood of Jesus, as an unholy thing (because they had replaced it with Jewish sin offerings, suggesting that it was invalid). And they would have done despite to the Spirit of grace because they would have rejected what He had revealed about the cross of Christ.

He then continues with his plea. For them as for all men it was now Christ or judgment (a total answer to those who argue that the Jews have an alternative way of salvation).
[/left]

Greetings Petepet,

Excellent reply! Christ is the only sacrifice for sin. Turning back to the law, or doing good works apart from Christ will not save us. Salvation is of the Lord! Amen!

Many Blessings,
RW

IBWatching
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:16 PM
I come from a background where I was taught that there was only one unforgivable sin and other than committing that there was no sin that could not be forgiven.


I did not understand either that we can walk a sinless life, and if we belong to the Lord, it is the nature of flesh, or the carnal nature that sins and as long as we are not practicing sin, or in willful disobedience, then our sin is covered.

However, if today I decide that I am going to not do that which I know is good, then I am commiting willful sin [Jas 4:17 ] and according to Hebrews there is NO covering for this sin, not even the blood of Jesus Christ. ...



The audience of Hebrews were Jewish converts to Christianity who were considering reverting back to the practices of Judaism to avoid persecution. If they did, they were rejecting the one time Sacrifice of Jesus, offending God and placing themselves back under a system which had already been shown to fail in regards to sin. The author's questions to them here was like this:

"If you go back to Judaism, what covers your sins? In your conscience, any willful sins (all breaking of Commandments under the Law were willful sins because there existed a command from God not to do them - that's why the letter of the Law kills) can no longer be covered by the sacrifice of bulls and goats, so what will you offer for them? You already KNOW that Jesus' Sacrifice was the only one God will ever see as sufficient, so what will you offer for your sins when you go back to the Law?"

You need to keep the nature of the audience (Hebrews, remember?) in mind at all times when studying Hebrews. Otherwise, you will read things into some kind of Church "doctrine" which wouldn't apply to gentiles in the Church because they aren't being addressed here. Peter warned others about doing to gentiles what these Hebrews were thinking about doing themselves:


Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?That's why the "scary" language in Hebrews and passages which seem to call Salvation in question. The author knew they would be miserable if they reverted back to Judaism. He was greatly concerned for them.

Hope this helped.

9Marksfan
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:10 AM
So if the warning passages are for converted Jews and the letter is for converted Jews, then surely it's simply of academic interest to us? :eek:

Come on, folks! ALL Scripture is FOR us, even if it wasn't written TO us - are folks saying there is NO practical application of this and other passages to careless "Christians"?

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 11:45 AM
I do not want for one moment to minimise the danger of sinning wilfully. It can lead to backsliding and being in the wilderness in our relationship with God. But I do not think that that is what the writer is talking about here.

The writer to the Hebrew was writing to Jewish Christians who under severe persecution and pressure were considering turning back to Judaism.

That is why he has built up his arguments about Judaism, showing that it had become invalid. Its old ritual had been replaced and was now redundant.

Here he is pointing out to these would be apostates that if they turned back to Judaism they would be turning back to something that was now invalid. For they should recognise that now, as a result of the sacrifice of Christ, there was no other sacrifice for sin. If they went back to Judaism and sinned wilfully what would they do? Offer a sin offering? But that would be useless. Sin offerings are no longer valid. Indeed outside of Christ there is no offering for sin anywhere that is valid any longer. All then that they could expect for their sins would be a certain fearful looking for of judgment. Judaism would no longer offer a way of escape for them. How foolish then to turn back to Judaism and its cancelled ritual.

But it does not mean that if I sin wilfully I cannot turn to the sacrifice of Christ. Indeed we all at times sin wilfully (although hopefully less and less as we grow in Him). Where else should we turn? He alone is the true sacrifice for sin.

Those who turn back to trusting in Jewish sin offerings have blasphemed against the cross. They have done what Israel of old did, mixed revealed truth with the old religion. Thus they would have treated the blood of the covenant, the blood of Jesus, as an unholy thing (because they had replaced it with Jewish sin offerings, suggesting that it was invalid). And they would have done despite to the Spirit of grace because they would have rejected what He had revealed about the cross of Christ.

He then continues with his plea. For them as for all men it was now Christ or judgment (a total answer to those who argue that the Jews have an alternative way of salvation).
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It seems to me that the "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26), is linked with the exhortation which came just before it: "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised), (Heb.10: 23).

I don't think that "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth" is linked with " What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be! Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.?" (Rom 6:15-16)

But I think "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth" is linked with "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame. (For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth plants fit for those by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God. But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is a curse, whose end is to be burned.)" (Heb.6: 4-8).

The passage has to do with apostasy from the faith and reverting to old things.

So I would agree with what petepet and a number of others have said about this passage.

ananias

My heart's Desire
Sep 24th 2008, 06:19 AM
So if the warning passages are for converted Jews and the letter is for converted Jews, then surely it's simply of academic interest to us? :eek:

Come on, folks! ALL Scripture is FOR us, even if it wasn't written TO us - are folks saying there is NO practical application of this and other passages to careless "Christians"?
I believe it is written to Jewish people but applies to all in that there is only one way of Salvation and that way is Christ!
For as Scripture says in 2 Timothy 3;16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

Of course, Hebrews means something to us for learning yet the language offers them Salvation in terms they can relate to as they are the ones who are familiar with the Temple Sacrifices more than we are.

I will never believe it teaches Christians can lose salvation after being saved. When I get to heaven is Christ going to disown me because I believe I'm saved by grace through faith in Him alone, instead of things that I can boast of? I don't think so.
If I was a careless Christian then I was a careless sinner first. Which one did Christ die for? Only one or both?

Paladin54
Sep 24th 2008, 01:38 PM
Taking in the context of the entire chapter of Hebrews 10 I take this from the passage:

Once you are given the knowledge that Jesus was the final sacrifice for our sins, if you reject this sacrifice there is no other way to have your sins forgiven. There is now only one way. Once you take it up your sins are forgiven, but if you reject it, that is it. There is no other way to have your sins forgiven.

The only unforgivable sin is the act of turning down God's gift of Jesus Christ as the final sacrifice for our sins. All else can be forgiven by Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus sacrifice was for all sins by all man. But you had to take action on your part to receive this forgiveness. And to turn this down after receiving the knowledge of it is unforgivable.

IMINXTC
Sep 24th 2008, 01:59 PM
YES! And for the Hebrew in particular, after coming to the Gospel then deliberately turning back to sin, believing he can count on the old Mosaic sacrificial system to save him. There is no more sacrifice for sin for him, but judgment. (its the old "dead cow on the altar" fallacy, not exclusive to the Hebrew people).

petepet
Sep 24th 2008, 02:20 PM
So if the warning passages are for converted Jews and the letter is for converted Jews, then surely it's simply of academic interest to us? :eek:

Come on, folks! ALL Scripture is FOR us, even if it wasn't written TO us - are folks saying there is NO practical application of this and other passages to careless "Christians"?

Hi You are quite right in saying that, although 'supposedly converted' Jews were mainly in mind (simply because that was the situation that the writer was addressing), it also has an application to all. It is a warning to all that wilful sin can only be dealt with by the sacrifice of Christ. There remains no other sacrifice for sin. Any other method of atonement will prove useless. It is Christ or judgment.

All have committed wilful sin. Therefore all must come to the cross of Christ where the One Who completely fulfilled the will of God was offered up as a sacrifice for us.

Beholding_the_Lamb
Sep 28th 2008, 03:22 AM
I think there is some truth in the contention that there is no covering for wilful sin - the OT is full of covering for "accidental" sins and David asked to be kept from "presumptuous" sins. However, we are also told that the blood of Jesus Christ [God's] Son cleanses us from ALL sin" - automatically? No - for those who walk in the light and confess their sins.

Now - I do not believe that we are meant to live in a constant state of anxiety and lack of assurance, worrying if we have committed a sin for which there is no sacrifice - what I believe is the key here (and in parallel passages like 1 Jn 3:9) is the Greek tense, which is continuous present - I truly believe that there IS no sacrifice for those who "keep on sinning" because they show that they have never been truly regenerate - if they were, they would NOT keep on sinning (Paul Washer is great on this - as is John Piper). So ultimately, the benefits of the cross will be of no use to them at all - for they will end up as reprobates and apostates.....

If we are those who walk in the light and confess our sins and war against them, we will not be in danger of committing sins for which there is no covering and will not end up like Esau or Judas - regretting our sin but never being able to come to repent of it truly....

I want to thank everyone who posted reply, I found them very helpful. I tend to strongly agree with Marksfan and found Sold Out's reply to really pertain to our circumstances as well.

There is a specific reason I asked this question and why I am really seeking an answer. In the end, it will God who lays this issue to rest though.
I asked this question because I responded to God's call in 1974. I know I was saved but still spent twenty some years backslidding and coming back only to fall away again due to not having family while growing up which caused me to be "obsessed" with being married and having a Christian husband that "loved the Lord and understood me". Actually, I had an idol to be forthright about it. So understandably that never happened. After 3 marraiges and divorces to abusive men; each one more creatively abusive than the former, I gave up and intended to stay single. It was to be "just me and God".

I ended up meeting a wonderful man who is a Christian, and I was back in Church but struggling to walk in holiness. I wasn't seeking a relationship with this man but one day he announced that he had been "waiting all his life to meet someone like me" and he loved me. There was one problem, he was married. I told him to go home to his wife but didn't hold my ground. Months later we were living together "praising God for bring us together"???:B
By the time two years had passed we were both diagnosed with not one but three debilitating illnesses and on Social Security Disability. Beleive me, there is a lot of suffering going on!
The Lord mercifully extended to us His gift of repentance in 2003, and our lives are totally turned around. The first thing we did, after we repented was to try to "fix" things and Michael was divorced already so we married.
We are not the same people today, Praise God, God really removed the veil from our eyes and walk very carefully before our God.
We beleive 1 Peter 2 :24 and that we WERE healed by the stripes of Jesus. We have seen healing manifested in many areas and from illnesses that have come since 2003, but no manifestation of healing from these illnessess.
My point is we knew that it was sin to commit adultry and fornication when we moved in together, and then tried to justify it by saying " he would have left his wife sooner or later anyway because....." I can't think of anything that could be labled more "willful" than this was, we just tried to justify it and make excuses for it, after all "we were Christians after all".

Yes, we have repented and I know we are forgiven. However, I do wonder because we do have faith in the Word for our healing, and we have seen healing but not for those illnesses that have us housebound and barely able to take care of ourselves and whatsmore, we have no family, or brethern to help either.

At first ( 2 years ago) when we first received prayer, we both thought our faith was just being tried and after standing fast, we would see the manifetation, but as time passed I began to wonder. Then I heard the teaching from Hebrews and my husband accepted it, but I didn't. I thought that the enemy was trying to cause us to walk in unbelief, and I want to beleive that...but I am waivering.
I know that I deserve worse than what I have, I deserve death and eternity in hell. However, I know I also belong to the Lord and the desire of my heart is to serve him, not be housebound and close to useless to eveyone, including my husband and myself. I always feel like I am failing God, and I can tell you that this hurts more than anything physical going on inside of my body. And then to see my husband suffer because I sinned? I can't even write about how that makes me feel?

I am really baring my soul here for a reason. If what we are going through IS because of willful sin, then I want to everyone to realize that we all need to take sin, and walking before God in obedeince seriously, very seriously because ONE SIN that is uncovered, can have a serious life changing, heart breaking out come. I have no doubt that we still have salvation, we have a much closer walk with the Lord now and a better understanding of the Word as well. Of course this was not a sin that one would tend to "practice" or "keep on sinning in" as was brought out in Marksfan's reply. However, to put it bluntly, although we have a lot of love and understanding for each other, we don't "enjoy" being together as other couples do, or in a way God intends for married couples to enjoy their lives together.

Sold Out's post also helped, especially #1, we certianly do not have the capacity physically or mentally to serve the Lord like we once did, and this really "eats" away at me a lot. And #3 is also relevant because I can't see living all the years the Lord has promised us (under normal conditions) with all that is going on in our bodies. We already move like we are in our 80's and we are only in our 50's.


The writer of Hebrews is speaking of a Christian who has crossed the line of God's Mercy. Now this doesn't mean they lose their salvation (because they did nothing to earn it), it means they will suffer potential loss in 3 areas:

1) Can no longer serve God - they will be 'shelved' as a Christian. Paul was concerned this would happen to him, as he said in I. Cor 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." The greek word for 'castaway' is ADOKIMOS, which is defined:
1) not standing the test, not approved
a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

2) Loss of rewards earned from serving God. I Corinthians 3:14,15 says, "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Ezekiel 3:20 says the same thing: "Again, When a righteous man (saved) doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

3) Premature Death - Ezekiel 3:20 (above) states this, as does I Corinthians 5:1-5, "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

As I said in the beginning. The Lord Jesus will have to help us to understand what the answer is to this situation.

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.
Jas 1:5 But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting: for he that doubteth is like the surge of the sea driven by the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord;
Jas 1:8 a doubleminded man, unstable in all his ways.

I would humbly ask that if your are led too, that you would keep us in prayer, specifically that our faith will be increased, so that we do not walk in any unbelief or doublemindedness.

Thank you for allowing me to share and if there are any, who may be tempted in anyway to justify any sin that the evil one or their flesh is tempting them with, I pray you will call upon the Lord for strength and rebuke the devil who is a liar.

May you all be blessed

Rachele

My heart's Desire
Sep 28th 2008, 03:40 AM
Sometimes we can't forgive ourselves until we see ourselves totally forgiven by God. I still believe a true Christian CANNOT lose one's salvation, regardless we do know from Scripture and from our very lives there are consequences of sin in this life. True Salvation does not insolate us from that. God still loves and cares for us more than any of us know. To me that is what faith is, not looking at myself but only at Christ and all He has done for me and does every second I breath.

Ethnikos
Sep 28th 2008, 11:34 PM
I'd like to hear what others have to say about this, but could you, or would you please include the scripture to back up your position?



The key to understanding these verses is that it is not talking about an individual believer but it is addressed to the Christian community.
The writer is giving instruction to the Church in how they will be able to exist or be destroyed (up to and including) when the end of this world comes.

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 03:50 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?




Well, verse 26 clearly says that this is taking place AFTER the knowledge of truth. Meaning, we knew the truth of the gospel, of Christ. It is one who has been born again. Knowledge isn't given to those who aren't. So if sin is WILLFULLY committed, purposely going against that which is known to be sin and wrong in the eyes of God, there is no sacrafice left to cover that sin. Verse 27 flows from that in there is punishment - expected and fearful for who does willfully sin.

Verse 28 and 29 contrast to explain verse 27. Those who are under the Law of Moses will be judged according to it, but those who have tasted the goodness (the sinner in verse 26) and known Grace and walked the truth covered by Christ's blood will suffer a far greater punishment than he who never believed and remain under the yoke of the Law.

Read scripture for what it says, then let the Spirit reveal it to your heart.

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
The key to understanding these verses is that it is not talking about an individual believer but it is addressed to the Christian community.
The writer is giving instruction to the Church in how they will be able to exist or be destroyed (up to and including) when the end of this world comes.


Is the church judged as a whole, or do we each have our own moment of judgment? Indeed, the letter is addressed to those in the community, but it applies to individuals.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 29th 2008, 11:03 PM
As I said in the beginning. The Lord Jesus will have to help us to understand what the answer is to this situation.

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.
Jas 1:5 But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting: for he that doubteth is like the surge of the sea driven by the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord;
Jas 1:8 a doubleminded man, unstable in all his ways.

I would humbly ask that if your are led too, that you would keep us in prayer, specifically that our faith will be increased, so that we do not walk in any unbelief or doublemindedness.

Thank you for allowing me to share and if there are any, who may be tempted in anyway to justify any sin that the evil one or their flesh is tempting them with, I pray you will call upon the Lord for strength and rebuke the devil who is a liar.

May you all be blessed

Rachele

Lam 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
Lam 3:2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
Lam 3:3 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day.
Lam 3:4 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones.
Lam 3:5 He hath built against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.
Lam 3:6 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.
Lam 3:7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.
Lam 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
Lam 3:9 He hath enclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.
Lam 3:10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.
Lam 3:11 He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.
Lam 3:12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.
Lam 3:13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
Lam 3:14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
Lam 3:15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
Lam 3:16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
Lam 3:17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.
Lam 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
Lam 3:19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
Lam 3:20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.


Lam 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
Lam 3:24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
Lam 3:25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
Lam 3:27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
Lam 3:28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
Lam 3:29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
Lam 3:30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

Lars777
Sep 30th 2008, 12:04 AM
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)




What a somber passage! What is this willful, deliberate sin that has such terrible results? The tense of the word indicates immediately that this is not a single act of folly or weakness.

This is not something one can stumble into suddenly. It is not the normal falterings of a Christian who is still learning how to walk in the Spirit. None of these is in view at all.

The continuous present tense of this word, "sin deliberately," marks a long-continued attitude of resistance. It is, of course, the sin the writer has warned against all along in Hebrews It is the sin of knowing the principle of the denial of self in following Christ, and a consistent refusal to do so.

I ran across a startling phrase that beautifully expresses this. It is "the leukemia of noncommitment." It is refusing to cease from our own works and enter into God's rest, refusing the cross in our life.

It is choosing to live for self behind a Christian veneer, refusing the claims of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

This is not possible when this new arrangement for living is not yet clearly understood. I want that to be clear.

This willful sin is never the sin of ignorance. It is a presumptuous choice of self living when we know perfectly well, from the Word of God, what the results of that choice will be.

What the writer is saying here is that once that choice has been fully made (and by the grace of God this may take years), then there is no way back. It is exactly the same situation faced in Hebrews 6.

There is certain judgment ahead, the writer says, "a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." He argues from the less to the greater here.

If this were true even under the shadows of the Law, if, when a man violated even these pictures of Christ and his work, he suffered death at the mouth of two or three witnesses, how much more shall he be culpable if he violates knowingly and deliberately the reality which is Jesus Christ?

This kind of sin, he goes on to point out, always involves three things:

There is, first, a spurning of the Son of God. He deliberately chooses a title for Jesus which emphasizes his right to be lord over life, "the Son of God." There is a consistent spurning of that, a refusal to buckle under, to acknowledge Christ's right to govern the life.

And there is also a profaning of the blood of Christ. That means a rejection of the principle referred to earlier, a refusal of the sentence of death that God has pronounced upon the natural life.

It is presuming to approve what God condemns. It is to insist that our efforts to serve God ought to be accepted by him, even though he has said they are not acceptable.

It is to insist that our religious activities ought to be enough, when God has said these things have all been set aside in the death of Christ. That is profaning the blood by which we are sanctified.

Then the third thing, the most serious of all, the outraging of the Spirit of grace. This is to treat with indifference (and indifference is always the cruelest form of hate) the pleadings, wooings, and leadings of the Spirit of God.

It is to insult the Holy Spirit. This, then, is the dread "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," for which Jesus said there is no forgiveness, neither in this age nor in the world to come.

I am often asked, "Can Christians commit the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?" The answer is both "Yes" and "No." Christians who have declared that, come hell or high water, sink or swim, live or die, their only hope is the promise of Christ, who, when they find themselves sinning and failing, own up, and return to Christ, and trust him again, that kind of Christian can never commit the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

He is "born of God" and can never do this. But Christians who sin and do nothing about it, who resent the Lordship of Jesus Christ, who resist his authority, and do as they please regardless of what the Word of God says, that kind of Christian is in grave danger of this very thing.

That is why this letter was written. Such prove themselves to be embryo Christians, as we saw in Hebrews 6, never born of God. They have entered into the initiatory relationship of the Christian life by the Holy Spirit, but never pass on to that taking of the yoke of Christ upon them that means a new birth. That kind can drift into this.

To put yourself into the hands of the living Christ is to trust him, and obey him; to believe that he is the truth, and you mean therefore to follow him, and do what he says, that is a glorious thing.

The hands of Christ are very frail
For they were broken with a nail
But only those reach Heaven at last
Whom those frail, broken hands hold fast.

It is one thing to put yourself into the hands of the living Christ; but to fall into the hands of the living God, when you have professed one thing but have consistently, deliberately refused to obey it, that is quite another thing. The writer says, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

We greatly need these words of warning. There is a cursed, superficial concept of God abroad today that is doing great damage to many. It is the idea of a palsy-walsy God who slaps you on the back and says, "Everything is fine, don't worry about a thing, I'm with you to the end no matter what you do."

God has never revealed himself like that. His self-revelation is continually other than this. The God whom we worship can be to us the very dearest person in the universe.

He offers to be dearer and closer and more wonderful than any earthly friend can possibly be, but only on terms which, in his wisdom and grace, he has seen are absolutely necessary to make that relationship a permanent one. On any other terms he is not available.

There is not one of us who would dare defy the laws of chance by endlessly playing Russian roulette.

We would know that sooner or later the laws of chance would catch up with us and we would be gone. If we were killed, it would be our own fault.

Well, then, shall we defy the living God and think we can escape? This is what the author asks.

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 04:36 AM
My Hearts Desire,


It's not that I am not able to forgive myself, and wasn’t sure if you were implying this or not when you said "Sometimes we can't forgive ourselves until we see ourselves totally forgiven by God". It is a truthful statement regardless. I do admit that forgiving others has always been easier for me that to forgive myself and it has been a difficult lesson to learn for me.


RacheleYou've had more than enough on your plate and mine was just one small issue and yet the results were the same. This is the way I mean the forgive yourself part. I have a struggle with a habit. Its not a clear cut sin as many argue about if it is or not. Regardless, I know it to probably be at the very least displeasing to God and in short I've not overcome it yet. I've been a Christian for many, many years and yet this habit practiced daily brought anxiety plus insecurity about salvation whenever the subject comes up as it does in this Heb. 10 passage. In short, I didn't know it but I figured that if I was enslaved to this ONE thing then Christ must NOT have saved me and it tormented me like nothing else. Forget the Christian fruit that being saved produced in other areas of my life, forget my witness that brought others to Christ, forget my love for the Lord and the Word, forget that He's held all my attention for 40 odd years etc etc, all I could focus on was that one habit that didn't go away.
This is UNTIL.....I truly saw that it was EXACTLY why Christ died for me. It's EXACTLY why I could not quit EVERY sin to be acceptable to HIM because I couldn't do it to begin with! Before Salvation I totally missed the mark of God and the only way I could be acceptable to Him no matter what was to just simply accept that that was the reason He died for me. It is so hard to accept God's forgiveness when we think we are unforgivable for something that seems beyond ourselves to do. We've got to look beyond the seemingly impossible and look at the whole picture. He didn't come to save the righteous, clean, self-righteous, sinless, perfect person (there were none) He didn't come to save those who were dead to Sin. He came to save those who were dead IN Sin! Long story, short. I didn't think Christ forgave me for that one habit because I couldn't forgive myself for having it. If I couldn't why should He?
Now, I look at what He did and no longer look at what I can't do! I know that by faith I am forgiven and saved! It had no bearing on how many sins I could give up etc. He died for ALL my sins. PERIOD.
Habit or not, practiced daily or not, I know by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the living Lord who loves me more than I can fathom, I am forgiven forever! Past, present and future no matter what real life looks like.
It amazes me how many love these passages in Hebrews to say one can lose salvation and ignore all the other places that speak of the assurance that Jesus Christ saves to the fullest all those who BELIEVE in Him! It is what He DOES, NOT what WE do! If it were anything other than that, I'd be lost daily!
Sin has consequences, but a true Child of God will never sin away the Salvation the Lord gives to those who trust in HIM alone.

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 04:44 AM
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)




What a somber passage! What is this willful, deliberate sin that has such terrible results? The tense of the word indicates immediately that this is not a single act of folly or weakness.

This is not something one can stumble into suddenly. It is not the normal falterings of a Christian who is still learning how to walk in the Spirit. None of these is in view at all.

The continuous present tense of this word, "sin deliberately," marks a long-continued attitude of resistance.
You are right. It is the willful, deliberate sin of NOT accepting Christ's death on the Cross for the sinners Sin problem of missing the mark that God has for us all. They want to find salvation some other way. Good works, sinlessness, religion... any other way other than believing that the Lord Jesus died for them to be saved.

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 05:20 AM
There are other verses in Hebrews that says it all to me. Hebrews 2:14-15
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil And what is the power of death the devil holds over us? Is it not our sin? I believe that deep inside everyone they know their sin is going to keep them out of heaven when they die. I thought I was afraid of my sin but it really was death that I was afraid of. It was Guilt. When faith in the Lord Jesus takes away your guilt, the fear of death is rendered powerless!

15. and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. When we truly trust that Jesus Christ has forgiven our sins for all time, then death is no longer a thing we have to be in slavery to.

The result?
Hebrews 4:2 FOR INDEED WE HAVE HAD GOOD NEWS PREACHED TO US, JUST AS THEY ALSO; BUT THE WORD THEY HEARD DID NOT PROFIT THEM, BECAUSE IT WAS NOT UNITED BY FAITH IN THOSE WHO HEARD.

3. For we who have believed enter that rest. God did the work and we must enter into the rest of faith in the finished work of God. Those who do not do that, are still enslaved to the fear of death because of their sin, they refuse to let Christ forgive.

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 06:08 AM
Is the church judged as a whole, or do we each have our own moment of judgment? Indeed, the letter is addressed to those in the community, but it applies to individuals.
There is a threat that is presented as the alternative to what is presented earlier, namely hope. The opposite of hope is here shown to be a fearful expectation of a day of horror. We need to fix our gaze on being a loyal subject to our King who has been established as our ruler. If we fall away and turn to evil, we become an enemy force to be destroyed.
If the Church stands, there is no judgment for us because we are incorporated into the judgment that Christ has already procured for us (meaning there is one sacrifice and that was for the Church, as a whole).

Teke
Sep 30th 2008, 07:19 PM
There is a threat that is presented as the alternative to what is presented earlier, namely hope. The opposite of hope is here shown to be a fearful expectation of a day of horror. We need to fix our gaze on being a loyal subject to our King who has been established as our ruler. If we fall away and turn to evil, we become an enemy force to be destroyed.
If the Church stands, there is no judgment for us because we are incorporated into the judgment that Christ has already procured for us (meaning there is one sacrifice and that was for the Church, as a whole).

This is a very good point Ethnikos. :) :thumbsup: (kudos sine your rep is off))

Many times our corporal standing is overlooked. As Christians, in our death at baptism we leave our individual standing and join THE Body in Christ in our resurrection. Which is another way of showing ourselves as followers of only Him.