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cdo
Sep 22nd 2008, 03:50 PM
Is there or could it be......"man"no~gender ~puts more of their own trust in all the scholars that study His word for many years and also include what their own opinion and mind tells them how to rightly divide God's Word correctly and to assume it means this when it means that of God's own letter to us.When 'we' have the information to follow what the scriptures and the different languages, also the history to gather information rather than putting their/our trust in God and what His Holy Spirit teaches us? When we need milk and we get meat and vise~verse by taking on info; from another when we can't digest it, especially when it might be wrong.Even so as Christians, we should be able to discern what is the Truth and what is False, by the Word of God. This would also fit in the category of preaching,teaching or making known that what is spoken in the flesh is just flesh without The Spirit. To speak the Truth.....We must know the Truth. "The Mind of Christ"

HisLeast
Sep 22nd 2008, 04:34 PM
People believe whatever they want to believe. Everyone else, from their opinion, is just listening to "the interpretations of man" or "doesn't have the holy spirit" or other such things.

cdo
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:13 PM
:) Hisleast
I agree with you so much.I've heard the excuses & more. People in general~~ not pointing fingers at no one~~thinking anything that makes it easy and not put forth the effort to long studying will "they" believe anything.And let their own self ignore their own truth and could very well get deceived. With those that truly study and listen to The Spirit in their heart will have the Truth inside and know when they share God's Word to others.They know in their Spirit they have done right.Because, we will be judged for every idle word that comes from our mouth and we are accountable for them who we speak God's Truth to.
Thanks for your honesty H.L.; in Christ,Darlene and God bless

HisLeast
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:25 PM
Not sure I'm with you entirely. I said people are going to believe what they want... not necessarily what feels easy. Pretty much everyone who takes a doctrinal stand on anything believes they are doing so via the holy spirit.

cdo
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:40 PM
Not sure I'm with you entirely. I said people are going to believe what they want... not necessarily what feels easy. Pretty much everyone who takes a doctrinal stand on anything believes they are doing so via the holy spirit.
I understand what you mean."about what feels easy.Of course 'we' all want to feel as though we know all things via The Holy Spirit.But, that's where we have to be really honest with our self When I said that ...it was like either an opinion from my own thoughts or it could be true.
All is cool,Darlene

scourge39
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:09 PM
Scripture nowhere states that the Holy Spirit is obligated to simply walk us through the process of Biblical interpretation and that the end result will be infallible. Some Christians will appeal to John 16 to justify their practices in this area, BUT notice that Jesus' audience when saying those words about being led to all truth is his disciples, NOT a mixed group of believers or the entire Church throughout history. In addition, he said those words BEFORE any of the New Testament was written. One can easily gather this from simply looking closely at the text itself. Jesus is confirming that the apostles will be led by the Spirit of truth and through his leading, establish the Church and its core beliefs. That means he will also lead them and the other NT writers to preserve the truth that the Spirit conveys to them in Scripture. That means that Christians should submit to what the text says linguistically and, if necessary, look at the original languages and study the cultural background that may underlie a given passage before applying it to today. It's not advocating privatized, reader-response criticism, whereby readers have freedom to interpret Scripture as they please and that their conclusions about the text's meaning are sovereign and should never be criticized either by others around them or the Church itself. Scripture wasn't written in a vacuum. It addresses the cultural and historical issues confronting its writers and their initial audiences. This should never be ignored by modern interpreters.

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:05 PM
Is there or could it be......"man"no~gender ~puts more of their own trust in all the scholars that study His word for many years and also include what their own opinion and mind tells them how to rightly divide God's Word correctly and to assume it means this when it means that of God's own letter to us.When 'we' have the information to follow what the scriptures and the different languages, also the history to gather information rather than putting their/our trust in God and what His Holy Spirit teaches us? "

That's a great point. Our pastor has written his own study bible...been working on it since 1977. He told the Lord that he wouldn't read one single commentary for the first 20k hours he put into that work. He wanted God to reveal everything to him without outside influence. He said when he reached 20k hours, he started comparing his notes with commentators notes, and surprisingly most of it matched up. Just goes to show that God will reveal truth strictly from the scriptures, if we are willing to look for it.

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:42 AM
That's a great point. Our pastor has written his own study bible...been working on it since 1977. He told the Lord that he wouldn't read one single commentary for the first 20k hours he put into that work. He wanted God to reveal everything to him without outside influence. He said when he reached 20k hours, he started comparing his notes with commentators notes, and surprisingly most of it matched up. Just goes to show that God will reveal truth strictly from the scriptures, if we are willing to look for it.

Yes, our God is a Mighty God who will give to those who seek His Word and Give His knowledge of His Holy word, which is not of any private interpretation, but, for all who wont the Mind of Christ. To be guided by His Word of Life in all things concerning.Allowing the Spirit to open up the minds that seek Truth:)

OldChurchGuy
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:46 AM
Is there or could it be......"man"no~gender ~puts more of their own trust in all the scholars that study His word for many years and also include what their own opinion and mind tells them how to rightly divide God's Word correctly and to assume it means this when it means that of God's own letter to us.When 'we' have the information to follow what the scriptures and the different languages, also the history to gather information rather than putting their/our trust in God and what His Holy Spirit teaches us? When we need milk and we get meat and vise~verse by taking on info; from another when we can't digest it, especially when it might be wrong.Even so as Christians, we should be able to discern what is the Truth and what is False, by the Word of God. This would also fit in the category of preaching,teaching or making known that what is spoken in the flesh is just flesh without The Spirit. To speak the Truth.....We must know the Truth. "The Mind of Christ"

Not sure I completely understand the post. Are you saying all Bible Scholars are to be ignored?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Literalist-Luke
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:55 AM
cdo, what if there was a conflict between the Bible and what you believed the "Spirit" was telling you? How would you handle that?

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:41 PM
Not sure I completely understand the post. Are you saying all Bible Scholars are to be ignored?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

No,that's not my intention to totally ignore the Bible Scholars.What my post was to mean is "do we put our trust in scholars more than we do God's Spirit.That's a biggy! In other words "you can't serve the writings of "man" and the Spirit of God to fill us with all wisdom & understanding".God's word stands no matter what.How can (gender)anyone use the teaching of man in the times we need it ?
When we put our trust in God's word.That should be what is abiding in our heart.
To me it comes down to:We talk to God and ask.......or do we look for the writings of scholars and look for answers that only God will provide.
I believe God's Word is # One.In Christ,Darlene:)

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:49 PM
cdo, what if there was a conflict between the Bible and what you believed the "Spirit" was telling you? How would you handle that?

The Bible and The Spirit Will never conflict (each other) Their One in the Same :) It would have to do with my understanding,:)

Emanate
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:51 PM
What makes one a bible scholar? One that has received a degree in denomination, a degree from a secular university, or someone who has devoted much time to study of the bible and/or certain topics within?

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:22 PM
What makes one a bible scholar? One that has received a degree in denomination, a degree from a secular university, or someone who has devoted much time to study of the bible and/or certain topics within?

So 'these scholars' were taught by 'previous scholars' same as they 'were taught by their scholars' and on down the line.......:hmm:
Being taught with nothing in God's word to be revealed.:hmm:

Emanate
Sep 23rd 2008, 06:16 PM
So 'these scholars' were taught by 'previous scholars' same as they 'were taught by their scholars' and on down the line.......:hmm:
Being taught with nothing in God's word to be revealed.:hmm:


And we see how the doctors of the law (biblical scholars) missed the Messiah.

Br. Barnabas
Sep 23rd 2008, 07:52 PM
What makes one a bible scholar? One that has received a degree in denomination, a degree from a secular university, or someone who has devoted much time to study of the bible and/or certain topics within?

A scholar is one who has a Ph.D. or other doctorate degree from a reputable degree granting school. Which means that the school down the road from be called Commonwealth Baptist College could not give someone a Ph.D. or a Doctorate of Ministry and that would make them a scholar.

And this is just me, some others may not agree, but I believe that a Doctorate of Ministry does not make one a Biblical Scholar. I am even wherry to say that a doctorate in Theology would make one a Biblical Scholar.

As a person who plans on getting a Ph.D. in New Testament or Biblical Studies or Theology, don't take any of this a putting down some people but I want to keep the field pure. I don't want some yahoo's coming in with a degree from some unheard of school trying to say that they are a scholar when they do not have any where near a C.V. comparable to someone with the same type of degree from a more reputable school.

So just having a lot of time studying the Bible does not make you a scholar. You can be very well versed in the Bible and know a lot about it but being a scholar is a career. If I were to read a lot of medical books and stuff like that and very go to school for it, and go through the training it takes to become an M.D. but still wanted to operate on people no one would let me do that or trust me to do it. So I might have a lot of the same knowledge but I am trained and have not been tested. Just as these people who have studied the Bible a lot and stuff like that have not been trained and tested on the subject they study.

The degree does not have to come from a secular university, it can come from a seminary. I would trust someone with a degree from a secular university more then a seminary. That is because in a university the student has to learn all the different beliefs or interpretations of a passage belief. Where as in a seminary they will usually only teach that denomination's understanding or belief. For example the university that I went to and got my degree in religious studies from, many of the people there went on to Southern Seminary, a Southern Baptist Seminary. There they pretty much only teach their understanding of different doctrines or interpretations of certain scriptures. So the students there are missing out on a lot of stuff because of the school they go to.

Well that is all I have to say I hope it helps.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:15 PM
I walked into the doctor's office the other day and they told me I needed brain surgery. When they told me that I was getting a doctor that finished at the top of his class, was the most well-regarded brain surgeon's in the US, was 'conservative' in his practice of medicine (meaning he didn't take risks), and had been conducting brain surgery for 20 years...I quickly turned them down and instead chose to rely on reading internet articles myself and praying on how to conduct brain surgery.

Of course, the above never happened, but it gets the point across. Why is it when we need our cable fixed, we call a cable man? When we need our car fixed, we take it to an auto mechanic? When we need legal advice, we go to a lawyer? Now, in all of the above we can do it ourself to a certain extent, but at some point we need an expert's opinion.

Most true scholars are those that rely on the Holy Spirit to work within their studies. This is not an "either/or" situation, it's "both/and." William Lane Craig or D.A. Carson, for example, are both Biblical scholars that teach one cannot properly interpret Scripture without the work of the Holy Spirit. Now they also rely on the Historical-Grammatical method, but they say that one must have the Spirit working within in order to come to a proper interpretation.

My question is this - if we always seek out an expert on everything else, why wouldn't we do the same thing when it comes to Scripture - something that is far more important than anything else I listed?

Secondly, if we are to rely primarily upon our own understanding and the Spirit's guidance, why did God appoint teachers over the church? What is the purpose of a teacher if we really don't need to be taught?

What everyone is ignoring is this - most of you have jobs and families. Most of you don't have 8-10 hours a day to just sit down and read a passage of Scripture, look up the historical context, look up it's meaning in it's original language, and so on. Most of you can't devote 50-60 hours of work toward understanding Scripture and praying over interpretation. You have other important callings that God has placed in your life that you need to deal with. God has appointed some to become teachers so that they can dedicate their lives to studying these issues and, in turn, passing on a condensed version to the layperson that doesn't have time to study. When you read a 300 page book by Carson or another true scholar, you're not just reading something he threw together. You're reading years upon years of prayer and study condescend into one book.

So to the question of should we rely on scholars, I say yes. They are an essential part of a church and Christianity. A church that ignores proper scholars is a church that simply isn't growing in their minds for Christ.

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:22 PM
Scripture nowhere states that the Holy Spirit is obligated to simply walk us through the process of Biblical interpretation and that the end result will be infallible.
To the best of my knowledge.... it doesn't say 'that statement of God's obligation' to do anything in God's word. Nor "walk us through the process of His word" as for as God's obligation to us.He owes us nothing.We owe Him our life!!! John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit,whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 16:13 Howbeit when he ,the Spirit of Truth is come,he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come.


Some Christians will appeal to John 16 to justify their practices in this area, BUT notice that Jesus' audience when saying those words about being led to all truth is his disciples, NOT a mixed group of believers or the entire Church throughout history. In addition, he said those words BEFORE any of the New Testament was written. One can easily gather this from simply looking closely at the text itself.No comment at this time
Jesus is confirming that the apostles will be led by the Spirit of truth and through his leading, establish the Church and its core beliefs. That means he will also lead them and the other NT writers to preserve the truth that the Spirit conveys to them in Scripture. I sure hope that your not saying the only ones who have been sent the Holy Spirit is the first desiples of Jesus.,Because we are all His desiples.
That means that Christians should submit to what the text says linguistically and, if necessary, look at the original languages and study the cultural background that may underlie a given passage before applying it to today. And always of course "the Holy Spirit"
It's not advocating privatized, reader-response criticism, whereby readers have freedom to interpret Scripture as they please and that their conclusions about the text's meaning are sovereign and should never be criticized either by others around them or the Church itself. Scripture wasn't written in a vacuum. It addresses the cultural and historical issues confronting its writers and their initial audiences. This should never be ignored by modern interpreters.
"people" are free to study or what pleases "them"

cdo
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:06 PM
I walked into the doctor's office the other day and they told me I needed brain surgery. When they told me that I was getting a doctor that finished at the top of his class, was the most well-regarded brain surgeon's in the US, was 'conservative' in his practice of medicine (meaning he didn't take risks), and had been conducting brain surgery for 20 years...I quickly turned them down and instead chose to rely on reading internet articles myself and praying on how to conduct brain surgery.

Of course, the above never happened, but it gets the point across. Why is it when we need our cable fixed, we call a cable man? When we need our car fixed, we take it to an auto mechanic? When we need legal advice, we go to a lawyer? Now, in all of the above we can do it ourself to a certain extent, but at some point we need an expert's opinion.

Most true scholars are those that rely on the Holy Spirit to work within their studies. This is not an "either/or" situation, it's "both/and." William Lane Craig or D.A. Carson, for example, are both Biblical scholars that teach one cannot properly interpret Scripture without the work of the Holy Spirit. Now they also rely on the Historical-Grammatical method, but they say that one must have the Spirit working within in order to come to a proper interpretation.


My question is this - if we always seek out an expert on everything else, why wouldn't we do the same thing when it comes to Scripture - something that is far more important than anything else I listed?
God is the Expert on revealing scripture and our guidence to all things.


Secondly, if we are to rely primarily upon our own understanding and the Spirit's guidance, why did God appoint teachers over the church? What is the purpose of a teacher if we really don't need to be taught?We should rely on God's Spirit first and formost and 'not primarily on our own knowledge,'But the knowledge of the unity of agreement in our spirit.

What everyone is ignoring is this - most of you have jobs and families. Most of you don't have 8-10 hours a day to just sit down and read a passage of Scripture, look up the historical context, look up it's meaning in it's original language, and so on. Most of you can't devote 50-60 hours of work toward understanding Scripture and praying over interpretation. You have other important callings that God has placed in your life that you need to deal with. God has appointed some to become teachers so that they can dedicate their lives to studying these issues and, in turn, passing on a condensed version to the layperson that doesn't have time to study. When you read a 300 page book by Carson or another true scholar, you're not just reading something he threw together. You're reading years upon years of prayer and study condescend into one book.


So to the question of should we rely on scholars, I say yes. Seeing this is a discussion post;The 2nd part of the post refers to : or would man(no gender) choose to seek God's Holy Word and His Spirit before the "true scholars and their teaching ?They are an essential part of a church and Christianity.
A church that ignores proper scholars is a church that simply isn't growing in their minds for Christ.
With the Church as "One" and who knows what happens in their Word of God leaves no room for judgemental in thought.