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Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:22 PM
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

As we can see, all ungodliness will be met by God's wrath.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Clearly, every one of us harbors ungodliness within.

Therefore, all of us will have the wrath of God poured down upon us.

My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

HisLeast
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:34 PM
What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

An unbearable day of reckoning I imagine.

Ethnikos
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:34 PM
2 Peter 1

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
We have to start with faith and then build on that to gain some of the virtue of Christ. If we keep this process going in a positive way, we avoid the wrath of God that comes upon the ungodly.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
An unbearable day of reckoning I imagine.


Why do you imagine such?

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
If we keep this process going in a positive way, we avoid the wrath of God that comes upon the ungodly.


But aren't we all ungodly to the degree that sin is in us?

HisLeast
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:45 PM
Why do you imagine such?

The answer is found in your first post...


Clearly, every one of us harbors ungodliness within.

Therefore, all of us will have the wrath of God poured down upon us.

I've stored up a lifetime of sin and selfishness that I'm only now waking up to. There aren't enough years left for me to build enough works to cover my multitude of sins. IF the slate of my sins hasn't been wiped clean then I imagine I'm going to suffer a pretty substantial eternal consequence.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 05:49 PM
I've stored up a lifetime of sin and selfishness that I'm only now waking up to. There aren't enough years left for me to build enough works to cover my multitude of sins. IF the slate of my sins hasn't been wiped clean then I imagine I'm going to suffer a pretty substantial eternal consequence.


Seeing that there is sin in all of us, it stands to reason that nobody's slate is wiped clean yet.

ananias
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:01 PM
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

As we can see, all ungodliness will be met by God's wrath.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Clearly, every one of us harbors ungodliness within.

Therefore, all of us will have the wrath of God poured down upon us.

My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

Jesus bore the full wrath of God that you are talking about:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isa.53: 6).

How do we receive the free gift of salvation?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (Joh. 3: 16).

"Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." (1Tim.1: 15)

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit," (Tit.3: 5).

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph.2: 8-9).

Jesus the Righteous One and last Adam came in the likeness of sinful man and lived a perfectly sinless and righteous life on behalf of those who could not, and then took our sins upon Himself as though He was the one who had sinned, and bore our sins in His own body on the cross."

The wrath of God will only come upon those who reject this their only salvation - and this is why God "is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet.3: 9).

ananias


ananias

Literalist-Luke
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:14 PM
Christ has already endured the wrath of God for our sakes. Those of us who choose to accept that sacrifice on our behalf will be spared. Those who reject it will have to endure it on their own, and will wind up eternally condemned.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 06:30 PM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

faroutinmt
Sep 22nd 2008, 07:57 PM
What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

Everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41, 46
Revelation 20:15

Teke
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:02 PM
My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?


Jesus said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? Luke 12:47-49

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:02 PM
My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

They will suffer the full penalty of their sins.

faroutinmt
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:07 PM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

Of course Jesus was our scapegoat. What do you think the scapegoat in the old testament symbolized?

If you are in Jesus Christ, you have died with Him: Romans 6:3, 4

If you belong to Christ, all your sins are now forgiven: Colossians 2:13

Of course Jesus died in our stead. What else did He take our sins upon Himself? So that they will not be reckoned to us. If Christ did not die in your place, there is no hope for you, since you can never redeem yourself.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:28 PM
Jesus said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? Luke 12:47-49


Wow, Teke, that is an illuminating passage, for sure.

Perhaps then it is just a matter of degree? That would make sense to me. Depending on how much hay and stubble is in our soul, the flame of God will feel either more or less severe to us.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:29 PM
They will suffer the full penalty of their sins.


Doesn't the Bible say that every man will reap what he has sown?

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:31 PM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

Excuse me? He took the FULL PENALTY of our sins...past present and future. How many of your sins were future sins 2000 yrs ago? ALL OF THEM! He died for the sins of the whole world throughout all time.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." I John 2:2

You are trying to mix works with grace, which according to Romans 11:6, is simply not possible. The only way we have forgiveness of sin is through Christ's blood. We cannot earn our own forgiveness in any way, shape, form or fashion.

Coptichristian
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:40 PM
If you are in Jesus Christ, you have died with Him: Romans 6:3, 4


The Greek is in the aorist tense, so don't get too worked up over the English. That the action (burial) is in fact an ongoing process is made clear considering what Paul writes throughout the book of Romans, i.e. that we are yet carnal and sold under sin (Romans 7).


If you belong to Christ, all your sins are now forgiven: Colossians 2:13


If we are in Christ, we are forgiven. This is true. But to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.

We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.

Teke
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:55 PM
Wow, Teke, that is an illuminating passage, for sure.

Perhaps then it is just a matter of degree? That would make sense to me. Depending on how much hay and stubble is in our soul, the flame of God will feel either more or less severe to us.

I know for sure from experience in the here and now that if I don't do what I know I'm suppose to do, I will definitely suffer consequences, be it now or later.
That's why I didn't know when the Father revealed the Son to me if it was a good thing or a bad thing. I was :confused
When they said the prayers of exorcism at my baptism for me to renounce satan, and I took a vow to Him, I was literally shaking with fear.

I was complacent before God rattled me.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Sold Out
Sep 22nd 2008, 08:58 PM
If we are in Christ, we are forgiven. This is true. But to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.

We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.

There is not a single human being that has ever ceased to sin...with or without Christ.

If a person has placed their trust in Jesus for salvation - that He paid our sin debt on our behalf - our eternal debt has been satisfied. Heaven is guaranteed.

Now since we know everyone sins until the day we die....Galatians 6:7 does come into play. We certainly reap what we sow....here on earth. Sin has consequences. If we go on sinning WILLFULLY after we are saved, we are in danger of losing rewards and being spanked into eternity prematurely.

Like Paul said, we are to bring ourselves into submission in our human bodies...striving to be more like Christ, but even Paul himself worried about messing up to the point that he would be 'shelved' as a Christian. AND...he struggled with his sin nature daily.

petepet
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:05 PM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

Hi But Jesus DID die in our stead. 'The Son of Man came -- to give His life as a ransom instead of many (lutron anti pollown)' (Mark 10.45).

He both died in our stead and we are to die with Him. He was both our substitute and our representative.

petepet
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

As we can see, all ungodliness will be met by God's wrath.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Clearly, every one of us harbors ungodliness within.

Therefore, all of us will have the wrath of God poured down upon us.

My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?

Hi I am one on whom the wrath of God will not be poured out. Why Because being accounted as righteous in His blood I will be 'saved from wrath through Him' (Romans 5.8)

petepet
Sep 22nd 2008, 09:21 PM
The Greek is in the aorist tense, so don't get too worked up over the English. That the action (burial) is in fact an ongoing process is made clear considering what Paul writes throughout the book of Romans, i.e. that we are yet carnal and sold under sin (Romans 7).



If we are in Christ, we are forgiven. This is true. But to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.

We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.

It really depends on what you mean by being 'in sin'. I will agree that we cannot be 'in Christ' and 'in sin'. But that is what the Gospel is all about. When I came to Christ I became 'in Christ' and I ceased to be 'in sin'. Sin was no longer my master. I was not subject to sin. Christ is MY Master and I am subject to Him.

Does that mean that I do not sin? By no means. But it does mean that I am not 'in sin'. When I sin 'in Christ' His blood 'goes on cleasing me from all sin' (1 John 1.7). Thus I am no longer gripped by sin. It is no longer my master. It has lost its hold on me. Being made free from sin and its power I have become a servant of righteousness through His righteousness imputed and imparted to me (Romans 6.18). And when I sin He is faithful, and justly forgives my sin and cleanses me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1.8-9).

threebigrocks
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:13 PM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

Christ did not die in our place so that sin could be defeated?

1 Peter 3

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;



Romans 8


2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Copti, do you realize that you are saying some serious things when you say that Christ didn't die on the cross to satisfy the anger of the Father against sin, taking sin upon Himself as the final sacrafice?

faroutinmt
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:18 PM
The Greek is in the aorist tense, so don't get too worked up over the English. That the action (burial) is in fact an ongoing process is made clear considering what Paul writes throughout the book of Romans, i.e. that we are yet carnal and sold under sin (Romans 7).



If we are in Christ, we are forgiven. This is true. But to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.

We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.

Where in Romans does it ever say that we are continually being buried with Christ?

Are you saying that no one is in Christ while they are alive here on earth? To be in sin is to not be forgiven. To be in Christ is to be forgiven through Christ and adopted through Christ to God. This in now way means that we still do not war against sinful desires. After we are in Christ we war against fleshly lusts; we must continually put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

Perhaps you should answer your own original question and let us know what exactly you really believe. I think you are just looking for wrong answers so you can correct us all. Please lay it out: what is your opinion on all of this?

Ethnikos
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:27 PM
But aren't we all ungodly to the degree that sin is in us?
To go back to the verses I quoted in my post, read: "...ye might be partakers of the divine nature..."
This is talking about something that Jesus has, it is referring to something of a higher standard than just a human type virtue. Then Peter tells us to be partakers of that virtue which is of a divine level of quality. It is something that takes work on our part to attain. If we are lazy and follow our lusts of the flesh, we will miss out on what we are supposed to be doing.

faithfulfriend
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:45 PM
There is not a single human being that has ever ceased to sin...with or without Christ.



Then what do these scriptures mean? Who are they for if nobody can cease from sinning?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Joh 8:34, 36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin....If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ethnikos
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:40 PM
If we are in Christ, we are forgiven. This is true. But to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.
We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.
Paul ran into people who were Gnostics and said they were not of his flock but were wolves.
My advice is to stop reading Gnostic books and after a while you may be able to understand God's word.
The way to God is not through asceticism and self denial and literally putting your human nature to death. Paul is talking about spiritual warfare and not carnal warfare. You have to stop thinking Paul is talking about his flesh, literally. He is talking about the works of the flesh.
We do not have a higher level to our being, that is the spirit. Both our flesh and our spirit is sinful. The spirit that is good is not ours but God's Spirit.
BTW we can not change our vibation level to jump to a higher plane of existance to take our spirit to a level of Jesus' spirit. Just in case you might be buying into some sort of heresy.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:32 AM
There is not a single human being that has ever ceased to sin...with or without Christ.


Well that's not true according with Christian Christology and anthropology. Trinitarian dogma declares He was fully human as we are. He never ceased to sin because He never sinned at all.

To get this thread back on track somewhat... it would seem that there is a consensus that sin will suffer the wrath of God. A few questions come to mind.
See my subscript, sound like wrath? What if you sin and you don't know you sinned, does that result in wrath? Is suffering part of universal wrath? Was Jesus suffering because of His human condition or because He was experiencing universal wrath (sounds like a contradiction)?

Seems we need to define what we mean by "universal wrath". From the previous posts it would also seem it is very important to our understanding of Christ.

My own opinion is that Christ wasn't suffering the wrath of God. He was redeeming His creation. I also agree with Copticchristian.

Psa 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] his name.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Sold Out
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:38 AM
Then what do these scriptures mean? Who are they for if nobody can cease from sinning?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Joh 8:34, 36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin....If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ok before I even touch on these verses...lets look at the obvious. Do you think you have the ability to achieve sinless perfection?

threebigrocks
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:54 AM
ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jesus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.

I think after looking at this that we are misunderstanding what coptichristian is saying.

Christ did take our sin upon Himself. Once we do so, we do not have Christ who is going to stand by as we continue on in sin. We need to die to self and "go, sin no more" in order to remain under the grace given by the finished work on the cross.

Copti, if I'm wrong - please correct me.

Sold Out
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:09 AM
I think after looking at this that we are misunderstanding what coptichristian is saying.

Christ did take our sin upon Himself. Once we do so, we do not have Christ who is going to stand by as we continue on in sin. We need to die to self and "go, sin no more" in order to remain under the grace given by the finished work on the cross.

Copti, if I'm wrong - please correct me.

THREEBIGROCKS...so what you are saying is that only the sins you committed up to the day you accepted Christ are forgiven?

faroutinmt
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:24 AM
My own opinion is that Christ wasn't suffering the wrath of God. He was redeeming His creation. I also agree with Copticchristian.


In order for Christ to redeem His people He had to suffer the wrath due us. When He bore our sins, He was suffering the punishment due us. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement for our sins was upon Him. It pleased the Lord to crush Him.

The only way for God to be just is to punish sin. God cannot simply forgive sin without being just. He must deal out the justice due. The only way God could be just (by dealing out due justice/ punishment) was punish our sin by punishing Christ on our behalf. We can only be justified if the wrath has been poured out for our sin. Christ took this wrath when He died on the cross. Now we can be justified through that sacrifice. The whole reason Christ died was to take the upon Himself the wrath we deserve so we could be forgiven.

As Sproul said, "The very One from whom we needed to be saved, was the One who saved us."

threebigrocks
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:30 AM
Can we achieve sinless perfection?

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.


We are called to be holy in our behavior.

Mark 7:14-23
After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, "Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. ["If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."] When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.) And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

If what comes out of a man is what shows him to be unclean, and we are to have our behavior, or what comes out of a man, be holy as He is holy - isn't that showing us that we can be holy because of our change of heart? If we are to conform our mind to that of Christ, won't what's in our mind and heart be what comes out of us?

Someone has already shared this passage but I bring it up again:

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Possess these qualities in increasing measure - that is the maturing in the faith! They will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in knowledge. Where does that knowledge rest? In our hearts and mind.

threebigrocks
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:34 AM
THREEBIGROCKS...so what you are saying is that only the sins you committed up to the day you accepted Christ are forgiven?

Wrath is for those who don't continue in faith, who never strive to put sin behind them.

As was told to the woman at the well - go and sin no more. We can resist, and it will flee from us.

If we do sin, we have a Mediator to plead our case and grant forgiveness with the Father. All sins we will ever commit are covered so long as we do not stray from the faith, and we move on in the qualities that further from our fleshy sin nature. We can resist, for He who is in us is greater than the sin.

Jude
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:45 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/His20Word-1.jpg

A believer shall not suffer the wrath of God, that is reserved for the unbeliever. What did Jesus
do that day in the garden, what was it he said to his Father,
he said what I believe to be the greatest statement in scripture.

Matthew 26: And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, O Father, if it
be possible let this cup pass from me: never the less not as I will, but as thou wilt.

That day he was speaking of his Father's wrath, do you realize Jesus drank from the cup his Fathers wrath. Woe to the unbelieving for they shall drink of that cup, the scripture reads the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever.



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

threebigrocks
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:52 AM
We will all need to answer for where we fall short. If you don't want to have to answer for it, don't do it, speak it or think it. The strength we have in Him is enough to overcome all.

faithfulfriend
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:14 AM
Ok before I even touch on these verses...lets look at the obvious. Do you think you have the ability to achieve sinless perfection?

Do I have the ability within myself? No.

But through God, yes.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Scripture speaking of Christ, and in the Greek text, the word "falling" means sin. Therefore if you truly believe this scripture, you will see that Christ has the power to keep his children from committing sin.

We are commanded by God's word to live righteous:
Definition of righteous below:


Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner.
In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment.
Morally justifiable: righteous anger.

So if righteous means without sin or guilt, then unrighteous obviously means WITH sin or guilt.

Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (Notice it says WERE, that proves a PAST spiritual condition, not a present one)

In comparing the text above to John 8, Jesus said if you commit sin your a servant to it, but if the Son will make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Free from what? Free from sin. The above scripture shows that being free from sin, you are therefore righteous. And we now know the definition of righteous.

Also, let is even allow the Bible itself to define unrighteousness:

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Therefore if unrighteousness = sin, the opposite of sin is sinless. The opposite of unrighteousness is righteousness. And we defined what righteous means above. Am I being clear here?

Again let us look at what the Bible says:

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not....

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever sins hasn't seen Him (Christ) nor known Him.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

They that commit sin are of the devil. Pretty easy and plain to see what God's Word says.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whoever is born of God (born again) doesn't commit sin.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whoever doesn't live righeous (see definition above) is not of God.

There are dozens more scriptures to show this point I'm trying to make.

Jude
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:23 AM
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I love this passage




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHksDFHTQI&feature=related

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:34 AM
..to be in Christ is not to be in sin. Needless to say, we are all yet in sin to some extent.
We are to take up our cross and follow Him. That is, we are to die to sin as He did.
If this came out of the Canonical Bible I would be surprised. To be specific;"...we are all yet in sin..." I could only find one verse that has these two words "in sin" used in the present tense, and that is Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" He answers this in verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
The other thing you say in your post,"...we are to die to sin..." is not in those words, "die to sin", found in my Bible.
As far as any verse in the New Testament using the words; death, die and dying, it uses them in a very literal sense, when it is about ourselves (any person on earth other than Jesus); except for when it describes how we are free from the law of sin and death.
This is a one time thing. We leave sin and death and because of Christ we enter into a life of righteousness. There is no repeated death that we do as a work for becoming good. (this dying is not an act of ourselves) We become dead and it becomes a past event. It is not an active thing, as if we are constandly going through a process of dying.

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:38 AM
Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jersus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him.
The Bible says Jesus was our atonement sacrifice.
The words of Jesus, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" shows that indeed he was the scapegoat, though his sacrifice is not limited to that because he was also the Passover lamb.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:39 PM
In order for Christ to redeem His people He had to suffer the wrath due us.

No one suffers for another persons sins. The whole chapter of Ezekial 18 makes this very clear.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



The only way for God to be just is to punish sin. God cannot simply forgive sin without being just. He must deal out the justice due. The only way God could be just (by dealing out due justice/ punishment) was punish our sin by punishing Christ on our behalf. We can only be justified if the wrath has been poured out for our sin. Christ took this wrath when He died on the cross. Now we can be justified through that sacrifice. The whole reason Christ died was to take the upon Himself the wrath we deserve so we could be forgiven.

As Sproul said, "The very One from whom we needed to be saved, was the One who saved us."

Just = righteous. God is righteous/just. It's not a juridical matter. Chapter 4 of Hebrews makes it quite clear that Jesus acts as a priest does for the people, not as a judge.

I see many times where Christians depict Jesus Christ as a judge or as one of the animals used in the ritual of sacrifice from the OT(as another poster points out the scapegoat). He is not the animal, but the priest. Even the Jews did not believe that sin was transferred to the animal. It was the priest, especially the High Priest who was allowed to speak to God on the peoples behalf. Moses set this very example, talking directly to God and praying/pleading mercy for the people.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:42 PM
If this came out of the Canonical Bible I would be surprised. To be specific;"...we are all yet in sin..." I could only find one verse that has these two words "in sin" used in the present tense, and that is Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" He answers this in verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
The other thing you say in your post,"...we are to die to sin..." is not in those words, "die to sin", found in my Bible.
As far as any verse in the New Testament using the words; death, die and dying, it uses them in a very literal sense, when it is about ourselves (any person on earth other than Jesus); except for when it describes how we are free from the law of sin and death.
This is a one time thing. We leave sin and death and because of Christ we enter into a life of righteousness. There is no repeated death that we do as a work for becoming good. (this dying is not an act of ourselves) We become dead and it becomes a past event. It is not an active thing, as if we are constandly going through a process of dying.

Read the verses before 6:1 and how Paul compares what Christ has done with Adam. Romans 6 is about our baptism and what it means.

Jude
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:59 PM
No one suffers for another persons sins. The whole chapter of Ezekial 18 makes this very clear.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



Just = righteous. God is righteous/just. It's not a juridical matter. Chapter 4 of Hebrews makes it quite clear that Jesus acts as a priest does for the people, not as a judge.

I see many times where Christians depict Jesus Christ as a judge or as one of the animals used in the ritual of sacrifice from the OT(as another poster points out the scapegoat). He is not the animal, but the priest. Even the Jews did not believe that sin was transferred to the animal. It was the priest, especially the High Priest who was allowed to speak to God on the peoples behalf. Moses set this very example, talking directly to God and praying/pleading mercy for the people.

If Jesus didn't suffer for "our" sins then the bible isn't Gods word. Do you hear how that sounds.

II Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Emanate
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:05 PM
The words of Jesus, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" shows that indeed he was the scapegoat


Or could it have been Y'shua citing a Messianic prophecy?

faroutinmt
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:30 PM
No one suffers for another persons sins. The whole chapter of Ezekial 18 makes this very clear.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



Just = righteous. God is righteous/just. It's not a juridical matter. Chapter 4 of Hebrews makes it quite clear that Jesus acts as a priest does for the people, not as a judge.

I see many times where Christians depict Jesus Christ as a judge or as one of the animals used in the ritual of sacrifice from the OT(as another poster points out the scapegoat). He is not the animal, but the priest. Even the Jews did not believe that sin was transferred to the animal. It was the priest, especially the High Priest who was allowed to speak to God on the peoples behalf. Moses set this very example, talking directly to God and praying/pleading mercy for the people.

"...Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the on who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25,26

Here Paul is making the argument that because God had passed over sins previously committed without punishing them, He appeared unrighteous. God must punish sin and it would be unrighteous (unjust) of God to simply pass over sins without punishing them. However, God demonstrated His righteousness when He punished Jesus in our place. He can justify sinners (like you and me) because Christ was punished for us. In the sacrifice of Christ, God can be both just and a justifier (vs. 26). That is, He can now justify the guilty without being unrighteous (unjust) because our sin has been righteously punished through Christ.

If Jesus didn't suffer for our sins, we are without hope for salvation.

"By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He (Christ) shall bear their iniquities." Isaiah 53:11

"We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

You are right in that Jesus did not come to act as our judge; He came to act as our High Priest. He did this because God's judgment was upon us. He came to bear the judgment we deserve.

When the priests laid their hands on those sacrificial animals they were symbolizing the transferance of sins onto those animals. They were symbolizing that the only way sin could be forgiven was through a substitutionary sacrifice, which is what Christ was.

"For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrified for us." 1 Corinthians 5:7
"Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things...but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without spot or blemish." 1 Peter 1: 18,19

"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all.." Hebrews 9: 12

Christ offered His own blood for our sins, instead of the blood of those sacrificial animals. He was our high priest by representing us before God by offering His own blood on our behalf.

ananias
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Coptichristian http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1797125#post1797125)

ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jesus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him."


I think after looking at this that we are misunderstanding what coptichristian is saying.

Christ did take our sin upon Himself. Once we do so, we do not have Christ who is going to stand by as we continue on in sin. We need to die to self and "go, sin no more" in order to remain under the grace given by the finished work on the cross.

Copti, if I'm wrong - please correct me.

First of all, when Jesus died, we (that is, our old, sinful nature) died (PAST TENSE):

"For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him." (2Tim 2:11)

"Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Rom 6:3)

How many times did Jesus die?

So,

"Jesus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him."

is not the gospel of salvation taught by Jesus, His apostles, and the Bible.
Originally Posted by faroutinmt http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1797622#post1797622)
In order for Christ to redeem His people He had to suffer the wrath due us.

Posted by Teke:


"No one suffers for another persons sins. The whole chapter of Ezekial 18 makes this very clear.


Just = righteous. God is righteous/just. It's not a juridical matter. Chapter 4 of Hebrews makes it quite clear that Jesus acts as a priest does for the people, not as a judge.

I see many times where Christians depict Jesus Christ as a judge or as one of the animals used in the ritual of sacrifice from the OT(as another poster points out the scapegoat)

He is not the animal, but the priest. Even the Jews did not believe that sin was transferred to the animal. It was the priest, especially the High Priest who was allowed to speak to God on the peoples behalf. Moses set this very example, talking directly to God and praying/pleading mercy for the people."

Teke, what you and Coptichristian are saying IS NOT Christian and, IMO, goes against the rules of this board - IMO this thread should be moved to the "controversial issues" or "other religions" board, since it is bringing the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, as correctly understood by mainstream Protestant Christianity, into question.

ananias

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:31 PM
Read the verses before 6:1 and how Paul compares what Christ has done with Adam. Romans 6 is about our baptism and what it means.
You miss the point. I was giving an example of where "in sin" is used and it is in the hypothetical to show what we should not be.
The other verses that use "in sin" are talking about the situation that existed before Christ.
My main point is that nowhere does it use "in sin" to describe our current saved condition as a Christian.
The OP is promoting a Gnostic concept that as long as we are "carnal" meaning being a flesh and blood person, we can not be good. The corollary, according to this heretical philosophy, is that our souls will be perfected in a punishing fire that destroys our bodies.
It denies Christ and substitutes a regime of self denial of our bodies in the way that Paul spoke directly against and condemned as the work of lying spirits to rob God's people of their salvation.

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 02:53 PM
Here Paul is making the argument that because God had passed over sins previously committed without punishing them, He appeared unrighteous. God must punish sin and it would be unrighteous (unjust) of God to simply pass over sins without punishing them. However, God demonstrated His righteousness when He punished Jesus in our place. He can justify sinners (like you and me) because Christ was punished for us. In the sacrifice of Christ, God can be both just and a justifier (vs. 26). That is, He can now justify the guilty without being unrighteous (unjust) because our sin has been righteously punished through Christ.

Thanks for giving this concise and correct explanation of the text.
I quoted it in the vaguest of terms because it is not easy to explain.
This is really what Paul was saying and it would do everyone well to understand this.

Sold Out
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:15 PM
Wrath is for those who don't continue in faith, who never strive to put sin behind them.

As was told to the woman at the well - go and sin no more. We can resist, and it will flee from us.

If we do sin, we have a Mediator to plead our case and grant forgiveness with the Father. All sins we will ever commit are covered so long as we do not stray from the faith, and we move on in the qualities that further from our fleshy sin nature. We can resist, for He who is in us is greater than the sin.

So what you are saying is that you have to 'work' to make sure you have forgiveness and stay saved?

I'm finding more and more that Christians do not understand biblical forgiveness. There are two sides to the coin.

1) Forgiveness of sin in the eternal sense (for salvation)
2) Forgiveness of sin in the temporal sense (for sanctification/restoration of fellowship)

When Jesus died on the cross 2000 yrs ago, ALL of our sins were future sins. That means He paid for them all right then and there. So when we place our trust in Christ because He paid the eternal penalty of our sins on our behalf...the whole sin package is taken care of. That means past sins, present sins, and sins we will commit in the future. He didn't die just for the sins you committed up until you accepted Him...He died for ALL of them. When you trust Christ, you have complete and utter forgiveness.

Now as a Christian, we will sin while still in these mortal bodies. (Remember...these sins are already paid for.) The consequence of these sins is not a loss of salvation, but a loss of fellowship with our Heavenly Father. Also as a result of these sins, we hurt ourselves and others around us. That is why God has to discipline us. We are His kids and He will make sure we are chastised for any willful disobedience.

Asking for forgiveness of sin (just saying you are sorry) cannot take care of an eternal problem. So to say you must go to Christ again and again asking for eternal forgiveness of your sins, in order to avoid losing salvation, makes no sense. He died ONCE for your sins, and you were born again ONCE into God's family.

9Marksfan
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Coptichristian http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1797125#post1797125)

ananias,

I must take issue with what you wrote.

Yes, our iniquity was laid upon Jesus, but this does not mean that Jesus is our scapegoat. Jesus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him."



First of all, when Jesus died, we (that is, our old, sinful nature) died (PAST TENSE):

"For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him." (2Tim 2:11)

"Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Rom 6:3)

How many times did Jesus die?

So,

"Jesus did not die in our stead. Rather, we are to die with Him."

is not the gospel of salvation taught by Jesus, His apostles, and the Bible.
Originally Posted by faroutinmt http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1797622#post1797622)
In order for Christ to redeem His people He had to suffer the wrath due us.

Posted by Teke:


"No one suffers for another persons sins. The whole chapter of Ezekial 18 makes this very clear.


Just = righteous. God is righteous/just. It's not a juridical matter. Chapter 4 of Hebrews makes it quite clear that Jesus acts as a priest does for the people, not as a judge.

I see many times where Christians depict Jesus Christ as a judge or as one of the animals used in the ritual of sacrifice from the OT(as another poster points out the scapegoat)

He is not the animal, but the priest. Even the Jews did not believe that sin was transferred to the animal. It was the priest, especially the High Priest who was allowed to speak to God on the peoples behalf. Moses set this very example, talking directly to God and praying/pleading mercy for the people."

Teke, what you and Coptichristian are saying IS NOT Christian and, IMO, goes against the rules of this board - IMO this thread should be moved to the "controversial issues" or "other religions" board, since it is bringing the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, as correctly understood by mainstream Protestant Christianity, into question.

ananias

Moved to Contro.

9Marksfan
Sep 23rd 2008, 03:58 PM
Or could it have been Y'shua citing a Messianic prophecy?

It was without a shadow of a doubt - but WHY did He say it? What was it referring to?

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:04 PM
If Jesus didn't suffer for "our" sins then the bible isn't Gods word. Do you hear how that sounds.

II Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




The holy scriptures do not contradict themselves. There is no precedence in scripture for someone else suffering for the sins of others. Scripture does not teach that.

The 2 Corinthian passage is related to the subject of "reconciliation". See verse 19 which says "God in Christ reconciling the world to Him". It is not a matter of assuming "our" sins. The Son of God voluntarily assumed the consequences of sin, corruption and death, without sinning Himself. This is also stated in "the Word became flesh" meaning the Incarnation. He submitted to unjust suffering which came because of our sinful passions. This means salvation is far more than forgiveness of sins. It means new life, in that is our reconciliation to God. (v 18,19), our becoming new creatures (v17), participants in the righteousness of God (v21). Jesus Incarnation represents personal and relational dealings, not juridical legal pronouncements as a judge.

IOW by literally fusing the divine with our humanity (the Incarnation) the virtue of grace overcomes all the evil.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The world is metaphor for human passions, such is our lot in the world, the struggle or tribulations of our human passions.

See Romans 1:17. The righteousness of God means a right relationship with God, and originates with Him. God's plan for our reception of His righteousness is the Incarnation of the Son. Christ's righteousness is given to us, and by our own cooperation with God we continue to grow in it. This is revealed from "faith to faith". We receive the Incarnate Son by faith and then live by faith. From the OT to the NT humanity has always participated in God's righteousness on the basis of faith.

"...greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" 1 John 4:4

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:17 PM
Teke, what you and Coptichristian are saying IS NOT Christian and, IMO, goes against the rules of this board - IMO this thread should be moved to the "controversial issues" or "other religions" board, since it is bringing the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, as correctly understood by mainstream Protestant Christianity, into question.

ananias[/B][/COLOR]

If teaching Christ is against board rules, I'm guilty.

Are you saying "mainstream Christianity??" doesn't recognize the Incarnation and what that means? Are you saying "mainstream Christianity", which you define as Protestantism, doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as their High Priest but instead as an animal?

If so, I do not see nor understand such, and that isn't the historical traditional teaching which the Apostles passed on.
The basis to understanding salvation comes from Christ, not the other way around. One cannot understand salvation without first understanding Christ.

The historical teaching is rooted in Trinity theology, not soteriology. A teaching which uses soteriology to define Christ and the Trinity would be considered a new gospel.

TrustingFollower
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:29 PM
Clearly, every one of us harbors ungodliness within.

Therefore, all of us will have the wrath of God poured down upon us.

My question is this:

What does this wrathful judgment entail for the unbelievers that it does not entail for you and I?
Christ paid the price for us that believe in him. We are covered with his righteousness now. So when God judges the world he will see his Son Jesus Christ when he looks at us believers and thus spared the wrath God has intended for us. Whereas when he looks upon the unbeliever he sees their sins and God will pour his wrath on them in full.

Romans 5

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:34 PM
Presently Copticchristian isn't going to be able to answer any posts addressed to him/her. Doesn't have enough member days yet to come into the Contro forum.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 05:54 PM
"...Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the on who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25,26



:confused I don't see what you've put forth about this verse. It clearly says "demonstrate His righteousness' because He "passed over" sins "previously committed". This agrees with the Apostles teaching in Acts 14:16 and 17:30.
This is proof that God is righteous and sin is but secondary to His plan.


If Jesus didn't suffer for our sins, we are without hope for salvation.

We are never without hope for salvation. God is eternal which makes salvation eternal also, since salvation is of God.

Psa 62:7 In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God.

Psa 74:12 For God [is] my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.



You are right in that Jesus did not come to act as our judge; He came to act as our High Priest. He did this because God's judgment was upon us. He came to bear the judgment we deserve.

In my understanding there is only one judgment at the end of things.


When the priests laid their hands on those sacrificial animals they were symbolizing the transferance of sins onto those animals. They were symbolizing that the only way sin could be forgiven was through a substitutionary sacrifice, which is what Christ was.

Can you prove in scripture that there was a "transference" of sin to animals?

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 07:43 PM
You miss the point. I was giving an example of where "in sin" is used and it is in the hypothetical to show what we should not be.
The other verses that use "in sin" are talking about the situation that existed before Christ.
My main point is that nowhere does it use "in sin" to describe our current saved condition as a Christian.

I see what you meant. But consider that the other posters are using words that relate to their understanding which may not relate to yours.

You posted, "To be specific;"...we are all yet in sin..." I could only find one verse that has these two words "in sin" used in the present tense, and that is Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" He answers this in verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Maybe the poster meant by "we are all yet in sin" to mean "in the body". I've seen the two terms used meaning the same thing. Since it says "let not sin therefore reign" in relation to our mortal body, we obviously have control over "reign" and we are still "yet in sin" because if not we wouldn't need to control the "reign".


The OP is promoting a Gnostic concept that as long as we are "carnal" meaning being a flesh and blood person, we can not be good. The corollary, according to this heretical philosophy, is that our souls will be perfected in a punishing fire that destroys our bodies.
It denies Christ and substitutes a regime of self denial of our bodies in the way that Paul spoke directly against and condemned as the work of lying spirits to rob God's people of their salvation.

I do not believe this to be true. I have some grasp of the OPs understanding of Christ, and it's not gnosticism.
As to self denial, scripture teaches us to fast and pray which could be understood as self denial. Jesus said leave all and follow Him, huge self denial.

I also don't see any indication of promoting carnal can not do good. So there's no corollary. Scripture says body and soul are God's (in a manner of speaking). Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And, we are purified/sanctified by fire, as God is a consuming fire. (Deut. 4:24, 9:3 and Heb. 12:29)

Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

note: The salt for the fire was to make the fire burn brighter.


_____________________

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:16 PM
The holy scriptures do not contradict themselves. There is no precedence in scripture for someone else suffering for the sins of others. Scripture does not teach that.

John 15
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Jesus says here that he did die for others, so there is the concept, at least, coming from his own words.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:24 PM
John 15
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Jesus says here that he did die for others, so there is the concept, at least, coming from his own words.

The concept is love. And it's not conditional. From the beginning of scripture we are taught that God loves us unconditionally.

Ethnikos
Sep 23rd 2008, 08:57 PM
The concept is love. And it's not conditional. From the beginning of scripture we are taught that God loves us unconditionally.
Here is another thing I remembered:
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
God loves us, and he loved Israel, and like John one says, he came to his own and his own knew him not.
You were making a point about the Apostolic teaching of Christ that was handed down. There is serious problems concerning forgiveness because it was corrupted by the official state church and they usurped the authority to forgive sins, for themselves.
That was the basis of the Protestant Reformation. There became a common misuse of forgiveness, in that it was traded for money. You would have a legitimate grievance with the Church and you may be justified to find a better understanding of forgiveness. The problem is that there are a lot of ideas out there that want your attention.
Gnosticism hates God and blames Him for the sin in the world. They claim Jesus as a superior model to the old Yahweh character from the Old Testament. In the process, they skip the significance of the principles taught in the old Law. So, out the window goes the idea of an atoning sacrifice because that would give authority to the Old Testament God.
A new idea is presented that denies the judicial authority of Jehovah and gives a connection with a mythical version of Jesus to gain a different form of salvation.
We share in the virtue of Christ. But that is that we are hidden in his glory and not that we have our own glory until after the end of the world and we are respectable beings, for having gone through the attacks of evil against us and have persevered in Faith.

Teke
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:23 PM
Here is another thing I remembered:
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
God loves us, and he loved Israel, and like John one says, he came to his own and his own knew him not.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not disagreeing with you about the giving of life. God does it and the prophets (the martyrs of the OT) do so as well.


You were making a point about the Apostolic teaching of Christ that was handed down. There is serious problems concerning forgiveness because it was corrupted by the official state church and they usurped the authority to forgive sins, for themselves.
That was the basis of the Protestant Reformation. There became a common misuse of forgiveness, in that it was traded for money. You would have a legitimate grievance with the Church and you may be justified to find a better understanding of forgiveness. The problem is that there are a lot of ideas out there that want your attention.

Your referring to the problem in the Roman catholic church which brought about the reformation. The other historic churches, such as the patriarchates (Jerusalem, Antioch etc) were in disagreement with them as well. Reform isn't necessary when it is just a matter of rooting out corruption.


Gnosticism hates God and blames Him for the sin in the world. They claim Jesus as a superior model to the old Yahweh character from the Old Testament. In the process, they skip the significance of the principles taught in the old Law. So, out the window goes the idea of an atoning sacrifice because that would give authority to the Old Testament God.
A new idea is presented that denies the judicial authority of Jehovah and gives a connection with a mythical version of Jesus to gain a different form of salvation.

I don't think anyone was speaking about such a thing. The historical church adheres to all of scripture, hence it's name "canon".
Historically the church based it's principles of worship on the examples from the OT, as well as moral lessons from the law, all adhere to Apostolic teaching.

As to sacrifice, scripture teaches it is God who provides sacrifice for us. It's more of a need of ours (we're experiential beings) than His. He does meet all our needs. :saint:



We share in the virtue of Christ. But that is that we are hidden in his glory and not that we have our own glory until after the end of the world and we are respectable beings, for having gone through the attacks of evil against us and have persevered in Faith.

I agree. Yet any glory we have is from Him always. We give all our glory to Him.


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TrustingFollower
Sep 23rd 2008, 09:51 PM
Presently Copticchristian isn't going to be able to answer any posts addressed to him/her. Doesn't have enough member days yet to come into the Contro forum.
I want to bring this to the attention of all here, just because the OP can't see this thread yet we need to stay on topic of the OP. This seems to be running quite the rabbit trail. So if you guys can bring it back around to the original topic please or start your own thread on the subject being discussed on the rabbit trail.

Thanks all,
TF