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paradiseinn
Sep 23rd 2008, 12:40 PM
my question is= what will happen to the children of the world during the time of the one world leader? does anybody really know?i'm hoping and praying GOD takes them out of here when the one world leader comes into power.thanks

Literalist-Luke
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:24 PM
my question is= what will happen to the children of the world during the time of the one world leader? does anybody really know?i'm hoping and praying GOD takes them out of here when the one world leader comes into power.thanksWhat specifically do you mean "what will happen to them"? They'll be caught in it just like the rest of us. What is it you're looking for?

paradiseinn
Sep 24th 2008, 12:17 AM
luke, i'm worried that the children will have no choice but to recieve the mark of the beast.the bible does'nt say anything about the children during that time.won't the mark be given out before the rapture?

Paladin54
Sep 24th 2008, 01:00 AM
I would say that if they have Christian parents, they would fight to live as they would, if they do not have Christian parents, they will carry the mark just as their parents will.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 02:40 AM
luke, i'm worried that the children will have no choice but to recieve the mark of the beast.the bible does'nt say anything about the children during that time.won't the mark be given out before the rapture?Yes, it will. But consider this: the purpose of taking the mark will be to buy & sell. So whoever has custody of a child would be the one faced with taking the Mark, not the child. There has to be something about the process of getting the Mark that constitutes absolute blasphemy. The Bible doesn't tell us what it is so we're reduced to useless speculation to try to figure it out. (Personally, I don't even try, I'm just waiting to see for myself.) But just getting some "mark" on your forehead or right hand doesn't send you to hell. If that was the case, then millions of tatoo bearers would be irrevocably on their way to hell right now. It's something about what you do to get that Mark that condemns you. So even if children are given the Mark without their consent, I seriously doubt it would automatically condemn them. Hope this helps.

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 04:39 AM
my question is= what will happen to the children of the world during the time of the one world leader? does anybody really know?i'm hoping and praying GOD takes them out of here when the one world leader comes into power.thanks

The mark or tag will also be an electronic ID. Normally children receive an ID on 16. If the world leaders will tag small children, we will have to wait and see. Christian parents must resist that their children be tagged.

bennie
Sep 24th 2008, 04:49 AM
Yes, it will. But consider this: the purpose of taking the mark will be to buy & sell. So whoever has custody of a child would be the one faced with taking the Mark, not the child. There has to be something about the process of getting the Mark that constitutes absolute blasphemy. The Bible doesn't tell us what it is so we're reduced to useless speculation to try to figure it out. (Personally, I don't even try, I'm just waiting to see for myself.) But just getting some "mark" on your forehead or right hand doesn't send you to hell. If that was the case, then millions of tatoo bearers would be irrevocably on their way to hell right now. It's something about what you do to get that Mark that condemns you. So even if children are given the Mark without their consent, I seriously doubt it would automatically condemn them. Hope this helps.

Revelation 13:16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

blue1123
Sep 24th 2008, 04:56 AM
The mark or tag will also be an electronic ID. Normally children receive an ID on 16. If the world leaders will tag small children, we will have to wait and see. Christian parents must resist that their children be tagged.

Okay Roelof, why do you think it will be an electronic tag? I know that that "medical ID" chip has been talked about on and off for a while. The very idea scares me to death. Just freaky. And if our bodies are our temples, than how in the world would anyone want to introduce this item withintheir body?
Roelof, I'm just curious.

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 06:25 AM
Okay Roelof, why do you think it will be an electronic tag? I know that that "medical ID" chip has been talked about on and off for a while. The very idea scares me to death. Just freaky. And if our bodies are our temples, than how in the world would anyone want to introduce this item withintheir body?
Roelof, I'm just curious.

blue

My view point is that the Sony system used in Japan is so advanced, it could be easily integrated with a biochip and used as the Final Mark of the Beast. It will be so advanced and with so many features and benefits that people will ASK for it !!!

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1784203&postcount=587

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 06:31 AM
The mark or tag will also be an electronic ID.There is nothing in the Bible to support that assumption.
Normally children receive an ID on 16.Under whose laws? The USA's? How do we know what the Antichrist's laws will say?
If the world leaders will tag small children, we will have to wait and see. Christian parents must resist that their children be tagged.Being "Marked" against one's will would no more send somebody to hell that being tattooed will.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 06:33 AM
Revelation 13:16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.OK, so what does that have to do with the process of receiving the Mark? Are you suggesting that if I went down to my local tatoo shop and had them put a "666" on my right hand that I'm automatically going to hell? Horse hockey.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 06:35 AM
blue

My view point is that the Sony system used in Japan is so advanced, it could be easily integrated with a biochip and used as the Final Mark of the Beast. It will be so advanced and with so many features and benefits that people will ASK for it !!!

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1784203&postcount=587There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the insertion of electronic devices into our bodies. If that were the case, then every pacemaker user would be condemned to hell.

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 12:38 PM
There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the insertion of electronic devices into our bodies. If that were the case, then every pacemaker user would be condemned to hell.

Luke

Will you take the biochip in +- 3 years time when the Antichrist will introduce it?

It is not only about an electronic implant that will control nearly all of your life, it is also about WORSHIP of man, the Antichrist.

Rev 13:16–17. All is despotic tyranny without consideration for divine or human rights. It is one thing to suffer social ostracism, political deprivation, or religious persecution; but to link idolatrous worship with economic deprivation is a master stroke of Satan. Boycott is a potent use of force. In order to obtain the elements for livelihood, it will be necessary for everyone to be branded in a visible place in their right hand, or in their foreheadswith the mark of the beast, either his name … or the number of his name given in verse 18.
13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is man’s failure at its worst. Man’s worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.
(KJV Bible Commentary)

SeekingWisdom
Sep 24th 2008, 01:57 PM
There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the insertion of electronic devices into our bodies. If that were the case, then every pacemaker user would be condemned to hell.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

The point is that it is very, very close to being possible to have a chip implanted that can be used to track what you buy and sell. If that doesn't ring an alarm in your head then I don't know what will.

Therefore, using logic, a leader with bad intentions can make it so that if you do not have this chip, you cannot partake in any transactions.

Is the chip itself evil? No, not evil, maybe controlling, invasive, and unnecessary.

Will what you have to do/say/claim in order to get the chip be evil? That is something we will have to wait and see. However I'm praying that it will be delayed until I am no longer on this earth.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 02:38 PM
Luke

Will you take the biochip in +- 3 years time when the Antichrist will introduce it?First of all, there is nothing in the Bible that says he will introduce even so much as a transistor radio, secondly, where do you get off saying "3 years"? Going around telling everybody a certain length of time is a dangerous thing to do. I would have thought "88 Reason Why the Rapture Will Be in '88" would have made that obvious.
It is not only about an electronic implant that will control nearly all of your life, it is also about WORSHIP of man, the Antichrist.

Rev 13:16–17. All is despotic tyranny without consideration for divine or human rights. It is one thing to suffer social ostracism, political deprivation, or religious persecution; but to link idolatrous worship with economic deprivation is a master stroke of Satan.It's nothing new. Nebuchadnezzar linked idol worship with being allowed to stay alive or death by the furnace.
Boycott is a potent use of force. In order to obtain the elements for livelihood, it will be necessary for everyone to be branded in a visible place in their right hand, or in their foreheadswith the mark of the beast, either his name … or the number of his name given in verse 18.
13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is man’s failure at its worst. Man’s worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.
(KJV Bible Commentary)There has been so much useless speculation over the meaning of 666 that it's mind boggling, because the Bible makes it so simple. It's the "number of his name". When we see a man who fulfills all the other prophecies about the Antichrist AND his name matches up with "666", then we'll have our man. Biblical prophecy has a nasty habit of making perfect sense in hindsight, every single time. So maybe we should just relax and not worry about ID-ing this guy in advance, and trust that God, who has already seen the future, knew exactly what we need to be told to finger this guy for who he is. When the time comes, it will all make sense.

But I have no spiritual problem whatsoever with electronic devices being inserted into my body, because the Bible never mentions it. Not that I'm going to run down to the local hospital and ask them to start right now.....

The idea of the Mark being an electronic ID chip or whatever is a completely Biblically UNsupported idea.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 02:42 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that.

The point is that it is very, very close to being possible to have a chip implanted that can be used to track what you buy and sell. If that doesn't ring an alarm in your head then I don't know what will.From a purely privacy point of view, yes it does.
Therefore, using logic, a leader with bad intentions can make it so that if you do not have this chip, you cannot partake in any transactions.Again, from a purely privacy point of view, yes it does cause concern. At a spiritual level, not one bit, until they start attaching spiritual elements to the process of acquiring this "chip".
Is the chip itself evil? No, not evil, maybe controlling, invasive, and unnecessary.

Will what you have to do/say/claim in order to get the chip be evil? That is something we will have to wait and see. However I'm praying that it will be delayed until I am no longer on this earth.I can go along with that. :yes:

aceinthehouse
Sep 24th 2008, 02:42 PM
With the way people get tattoos all over their boddy...?

It seems in this society,that tattoos have been looked at as an "in thing" trend,cool or whatever....

So implementing a tattoo or even a microchip,will not be difficult to do...

Last night I saw a commercial on the "Nation Identification cards" being implemeted on June 9th of 09'...

I don't know what Gods plan is for the children,but this "accepting the Mark of the Beast" will be a choice,no matter how you look at it my friends!

Those who refuse to have this mark will have a hard time in the world society,but will see Jesus Christ in the Clouds when he has us "caught up" after the dead....

Those who have the "mark of the beast" will go along society as they do now...basic daily life with some world transformations that will seem minor to the unbelievers...

If you carry that "Mark" on your Right Hand or Forehead,then you are doomed my friend!

I recommend you ALL to stay strong....cause your faith to Jesus Christ is about to be tested very....very soon!

If you :pray: for him to help you...He will listen!

moonglow
Sep 24th 2008, 02:45 PM
Revelation 13:16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.






It also says if you refuse to worship the beast you will be killed...so why is everyone worrying about having a mark forced on them? Seems like they would be more worried about the being killed part of this...


Literalist-Luke:The idea of the Mark being an electronic ID chip or whatever is a completely Biblically UNsupported idea.

I agree...especially since the bible says the mark will be ON, not in...

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 03:01 PM
It also says if you refuse to worship the beast you will be killed...so why is everyone worrying about having a mark forced on them? Seems like they would be more worried about the being killed part of this...Thank you - I'm glad somebody's reading their actual Bible instead of the latest sensationalist book in the "End Times" section at the local bookstore.

Paladin54
Sep 24th 2008, 03:09 PM
It also says if you refuse to worship the beast you will be killed...so why is everyone worrying about having a mark forced on them? Seems like they would be more worried about the being killed part of this...

1 Corinthians 15:55 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=55&version=31&context=verse)
"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

I am not worried as I know where I am going when my time here on earth is done.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 03:37 PM
1 Corinthians 15:55 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=55&version=31&context=verse)
"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

I am not worried as I know where I am going when my time here on earth is done.That's a nice platitude, but do you really want somebody sawing off your head because you won't take a tatoo with "666" in it?

V34
Sep 24th 2008, 04:28 PM
That's a nice platitude, but do you really want somebody sawing off your head because you won't take a tatoo with "666" in it?

Not receiving the mark is not a big deal to me. It is what I will have to
endure as a christian that frightens me. I am a pretty strong person,
and have an extremely high tolerance for pain. BUT be tortured or
put to death the ways that I could think of because of the antichrist
could be intolerable. And we must tolerate this to be with our lord
savior Jesus christ.

Paladin54
Sep 24th 2008, 04:35 PM
That's a nice platitude, but do you really want somebody sawing off your head because you won't take a tatoo with "666" in it?

It is not a platitude. I will not bow to the beast. Death has no victory.

John 12:25 (New International Version)

25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I do not love my life so much that I will accept the mark of the beast just so I can buy and sell. I do not live for this life on earth but for everlasting life with Jesus.

third hero
Sep 24th 2008, 06:24 PM
Yes, it will. But consider this: the purpose of taking the mark will be to buy & sell. So whoever has custody of a child would be the one faced with taking the Mark, not the child. There has to be something about the process of getting the Mark that constitutes absolute blasphemy. The Bible doesn't tell us what it is so we're reduced to useless speculation to try to figure it out. (Personally, I don't even try, I'm just waiting to see for myself.) But just getting some "mark" on your forehead or right hand doesn't send you to hell. If that was the case, then millions of tatoo bearers would be irrevocably on their way to hell right now. It's something about what you do to get that Mark that condemns you. So even if children are given the Mark without their consent, I seriously doubt it would automatically condemn them. Hope this helps.

I want to take this premise, and expound on it, because Luke 11 is absolutely correct in his assertation. A Mark all by itself is meaningless, just like circumcision. Circumcision, like any mark, is just that, a ritual with no bearing on salvation at all. So, there has to be something that comes with the Mark that would be so heinous that God Himself would offer no forgiveness for those who take it. Let's take a look at Revelation 20:4.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I look at this verse and realize something. The Mark of the Beast is tied directly into the worship of the Beast. Take a look at Revelation 13 for support of this thought.

Rev 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:11-12
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:16-17
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

According to Revelation, the beast causes mankind to worship Satan, and him, which is a direct violation of the first commandment. The Beast will call himself God, and all who follow after him will obviously follow him, including the false prophet. It is the false prophet, while exercising the powers of the first beast, who will tie the worship of the beast into the monetary system. When the Mark is iplemented, it will not be merely a credit card or a verichip, but a tool of worship, likened to an altar or one of the "high places" in the OT. It is nothing short of global rebellion against God, one that Gods will not forgive.

With this in mind, not only is bowing to the beast an unforgiveable sin, but taking his mark will be as well, mainly because the earth will be in total rebellion against God, and those who participate will commit unforgivable sins, including the merciless slaughter of believers, knowing who they serve. It will not be as the Pharisees, who thought they were doing God a favor, but these will know for certain that they are actively rebelling against the one and true God, which the mark will symbolize.

Therefore, if one takes the mark, they are taking an alligence against God, and therefore are subject to His wrath when He sends His Son to quell the rebellion.

third hero
Sep 24th 2008, 06:33 PM
luke, i'm worried that the children will have no choice but to recieve the mark of the beast.the bible does'nt say anything about the children during that time.won't the mark be given out before the rapture?

Now to this very, VERY VALID question. Like you, paradiseinn, I am afraid thatthe children may be sucked into this mess as well. And in my opinion, there is a good possibility that at least some of the children will receive the damnable Mark. Because I do not have the time right now to fully answer your question, I will only make these statements, and when I return home from work this evening, I will fully explain myself here.

It is my opinion that those who receive the Mark under the age of 13 will not be judged, mainly because I still believe that God has a cetain age of accountability, an age where a child is no longer a child, but responsible as an adult in God's eyes for their own actions. It is also my opinion that when the Lord returns, He will not wipe mankind off of the earth, but those who He has chosen to spare will live on, even if it is brief. (Matthew 25:31-46, Daniel 7:11-12, Zechariah 14:6-21). Therefore, the children under 13 may not be affected by the Wrath of God, but rather will be spared, since God himself will be on earth, reprsented by Lord Jesus.

Ok, I will explain all of this later, but for now, read the verses that I left, and maybe that will help you, even if it is just a little.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 06:53 PM
Not receiving the mark is not a big deal to me. It is what I will have to
endure as a christian that frightens me. I am a pretty strong person,
and have an extremely high tolerance for pain. BUT be tortured or
put to death the ways that I could think of because of the antichrist
could be intolerable. And we must tolerate this to be with our lord
savior Jesus christ.


It is not a platitude. I will not bow to the beast. Death has no victory.

John 12:25 (New International Version)

25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I do not love my life so much that I will accept the mark of the beast just so I can buy and sell. I do not live for this life on earth but for everlasting life with Jesus.Understood. :thumbsup:

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 06:59 PM
First of all, there is nothing in the Bible that says he will introduce even so much as a transistor radio, secondly, where do you get off saying "3 years"? Going around telling everybody a certain length of time is a dangerous thing to do. .

Luke

I do not think that we could expected from the Biblical writers more than 2000 years ago, to have the understanding and vision of an electronic implant, if the transistor is only +- 50 years old.

If you followed my "Last Days" threads and posts, you would have picked up the following:

Most Biblical signs on the Last Days have been fulfilled
The Ten Regions are more than 70% completed
The New World Order is planned to be completed by 2012
The technology already exists for an electronic biochip that will be your ID, wallet, medical record and many more. Biometrics can also be used.
The One World Religion, including New Age, is gaining momentum
The Revived Roman Empire, the Union of the Mediterranean (UM) was created on 13 July 2008

Luke, I know you are very sceptical, but I recommend that you do NOT accept a biochip

You may read my posts:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1799042&postcount=647
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1799067&postcount=649
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1799160&postcount=651
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1799175&postcount=652

Last Days - God planned eschatology and heavenly signs
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133998

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 07:06 PM
If you followed my "Last Days" threads and posts, you would have picked up the following:

Most Biblical signs on the Last Days have been fulfilled
The Ten Regions are more than 70% completedI don't agree with that, I think you're looking in the wrong place.
The New World Order is planned to be completed by 2012The Bible's indications are that Islam is the way to the Antichrist, not some humanist secular European leader of the "New World Order".
The technology already exists for an electronic biochip that will be your ID, wallet, medical record and many more. Biometrics can also be used.That doesn't automatically make it connected with the antichrist.
The One World Religion, including New Age, is gaining momemtumThe Antichrist's religion will be Islam. New Age and the others are only tools to discredit Christianity.
The Revived Roman Empire, the Union of the Meditterranean (UM) was created on 13 July 2008There is no "Revived Roman Empire" in Biblical prophecy.
Luke, I know you are very sceptical, but I recommend that you do NOT accept a biochipI'll decide at the time, based on the procedural requirements for getting one.

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 24th 2008, 07:17 PM
Does anybody care to do a 'word study' on the word 'mark'.. as its to referred to in these verses.. maybe there you will find the answer instead of trying to follow this man's assumption and that man's assumption of what it is.. or trying to follow what man has written and published in the local bookstore..
Do a word study in the Greek on that word... 'MARK'... u'll be amazed at what you find.. the TRUTH is found in His Word.. under the direction of the Holy Ghost..

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 08:03 PM
Does anybody care to do a 'word study' on the word 'mark'.. as its to referred to in these verses.. maybe there you will find the answer instead of trying to follow this man's assumption and that man's assumption of what it is.. or trying to follow what man has written and published in the local bookstore..
Do a word study in the Greek on that word... 'MARK'... u'll be amazed at what you find.. the TRUTH is found in His Word.. under the direction of the Holy Ghost..χάραγμα - charagma (khä'-räg-mä)

1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
b) the mark branded upon horses

2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
a) of idolatrous images

Nothin' there about electronic gizmos.......

bennie
Sep 24th 2008, 08:05 PM
Thank you - I'm glad somebody's reading their actual Bible instead of the latest sensationalist book in the "End Times" section at the local bookstore.


this stone could be throughn the other way to literalist. Last time i checked at the local Christian store, there were plenty of bookes to say Islam is the anti christ. Or the anti christ will come out of islam.

We doent see the Anti Christ the same, i know that. and that is fine.
I see it as Satan himself, the origianal Anticrist, and you see it as some wannabee Islam dude. When Satan hinself maskerade on earth, and there is no food or water around, and people are hungry and desperate, then my friend, the mark of the beast will become important. It is all about food rations. Ever heard the saying in anchient times: Starv the enemy.
i believe according to the bible, that this is how it will be.The four literal trumpets that is going to sound will set up the stage for all of this.

But again, we have very different end time views.
bennie

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 24th 2008, 08:46 PM
χάραγμα - charagma (khä'-räg-mä)

1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
b) the mark branded upon horses

2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
a) of idolatrous images

Nothin' there about electronic gizmos.......

Thanks for the word study.. Thats what I"ve found when I started to dig into His Word... I agree with you...... How does one stamp or imprint a mark into or on the skin of a person... that would be the next logical question.. Is there a word for such a 'mark'?

Partaker of Christ
Sep 24th 2008, 09:23 PM
Could there be a link with 'mark' and 'stigma'

[mark] charagma - which means: a scratch, etching or stamp (as a badge of servitude)


chi xi stigma (666)

G4742
στίγμα
stigma
stig'-mah
From a primary word στίζω stizō (to "stick", that is, prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition of ownership), that is, (figuratively) scar of service: - mark.

moonglow
Sep 24th 2008, 09:48 PM
Not receiving the mark is not a big deal to me. It is what I will have to
endure as a christian that frightens me. I am a pretty strong person,
and have an extremely high tolerance for pain. BUT be tortured or
put to death the ways that I could think of because of the antichrist
could be intolerable. And we must tolerate this to be with our lord
savior Jesus christ.

We were discussing this on another thread last night and this is what I posted in regards of how Christians now and in the past got through it:

That is because God hold's them close...otherwise I am sure they would just fall apart. Those in other parts of the world that are Christians are suffering terribly for sure...we have been very lucky in that. God is closest too them. That is why I don't have any fear on this. The bible doesn't say the beast (if you have a future end time view) will bother with torturing millions of Christians it simply says if they refuse to take the mark they will die (and they did in the past). It just says they were killed. And yes in horrible ways (in the past).

I have watched some really old movies made in the 50's I think it was about how Nero went after the Christians and how they were put out in arenas for the lions and other wild animals to kill or made to fight to the death...that type of thing and these movies so touched me. Yes I realize they are just movies...but much of it's based on facts. The Christians put in the Roman arenas sang praises to God before being killed...which so infuriated Nero. Peter was fleeing Rome...was meant by Christ asking him where he was going...Peter was so ashamed...he turned back knowing it meant his death. They wanted to nail him to a cross but he felt unworthy to be killed like Christ so asked they do it upside down...so they did. (kind of kills the idea of an upside down cross being evil). Paul faced his beheading (also ordered by Nero) by singing quietly on the way...

Now do any of us truly think they mustered up this amazing strength on their own? Of course not. God was with them.

When they threw John in boiling oil in front of a crowd and he didn't die...apparently wasn't even hurt...I heard most of the crowd coveted to Christianity. These deaths weren't in vain at all but the greatest testimony to others. So if I am wrong and everyone is right and there is some future tribulation that I am alive for...I know God will give me the strength to not only deal with it but praise Him as I die.

All of this I just wrote I didn't get from just a couple of old movies, I have also read the historical document on it and heard preachers tell some of these stories.

As Jesus says, don't worry about tomorrow, today has enough troubles in it. (paraphrasing) and I know I certainly do! For years I carried the burden of worrying about the end times and what would happen...I no longer do.

God bless

moonglow
Sep 24th 2008, 10:06 PM
I want to take this premise, and expound on it, because Luke 11 is absolutely correct in his assertation. A Mark all by itself is meaningless, just like circumcision. Circumcision, like any mark, is just that, a ritual with no bearing on salvation at all. So, there has to be something that comes with the Mark that would be so heinous that God Himself would offer no forgiveness for those who take it. Let's take a look at Revelation 20:4.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I look at this verse and realize something. The Mark of the Beast is tied directly into the worship of the Beast. Take a look at Revelation 13 for support of this thought.

Rev 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:11-12
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:16-17
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

According to Revelation, the beast causes mankind to worship Satan, and him, which is a direct violation of the first commandment. The Beast will call himself God, and all who follow after him will obviously follow him, including the false prophet. It is the false prophet, while exercising the powers of the first beast, who will tie the worship of the beast into the monetary system. When the Mark is iplemented, it will not be merely a credit card or a verichip, but a tool of worship, likened to an altar or one of the "high places" in the OT. It is nothing short of global rebellion against God, one that Gods will not forgive.

With this in mind, not only is bowing to the beast an unforgiveable sin, but taking his mark will be as well, mainly because the earth will be in total rebellion against God, and those who participate will commit unforgivable sins, including the merciless slaughter of believers, knowing who they serve. It will not be as the Pharisees, who thought they were doing God a favor, but these will know for certain that they are actively rebelling against the one and true God, which the mark will symbolize.

Therefore, if one takes the mark, they are taking an alligence against God, and therefore are subject to His wrath when He sends His Son to quell the rebellion.


I look at this verse and realize something. The Mark of the Beast is tied directly into the worship of the Beast. Take a look at Revelation 13 for support of this thought.

I have been saying this for years. Every single verse in the bible about the mark also includes worship of the beast. Andit also says its those OF the world...who's names are NOT written in the book of life that will worship the beast and take the mark...

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And it says those refusing to worship the image of the beast (so apparently there is a choice here) will be killed.

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

There would be no point is physically forcing a mark on us...it would be meaningless and not in content with scriptures. You are correct...the person has to renounce their faith in Christ AND worship the beast and it doesn't say anyone is forced to do this. Satan is plenty smart to know its not going to count under duress. If someone pointed a gun at my head and said tell me the sky is pink, I am probably going to do it...doesn't mean I really believe the sky is pink though...so why mess with all of that?

God bless

Richard H
Sep 24th 2008, 10:11 PM
What specifically do you mean "what will happen to them"? They'll be caught in it just like the rest of us. What is it you're looking for?
MHO:
While they will not be held accountable for the mark, they cannot be raptured because they are not born of the Spirit.

Richard

moonglow
Sep 24th 2008, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the word study.. Thats what I"ve found when I started to dig into His Word... I agree with you...... How does one stamp or imprint a mark into or on the skin of a person... that would be the next logical question.. Is there a word for such a 'mark'?

The bible says the marks is ON the right hand or ON the forehead...some translations say in...but I believe the correct interpretation is on. A chip will be IN not on. So I don't even think its the chip. Everyone does because they focus on the buy and sell part....but years ago people thought our Social Security numbers were the mark because without it you couldn't work..so you couldn't buy anything...you couldn't get a drivers licenses..a long list of things you couldn't do without that number..

Actually I don't even know how the chip would keep someone from selling anything...:hmm: If we over focus on one thing in a verse, the other things get kind of lost it seems..

There is a thread on here about the mark being spiritual and I tend to agree with that. Alot of bible verses in other parts of the bible regarding a mark or a seal of God. Believers are sealed by God yet there is nothing visable to see. Anyway to answer your question the The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5806) says this about the mark:

(7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.

I think we need to remember while the OT was centered about the physical world...once Christ came He focused on the spiritual world...OUR spiritual condition.


Partaker of Christ: Could there be a link with 'mark' and 'stigma'

[mark] charagma - which means: a scratch, etching or stamp (as a badge of servitude)


chi xi stigma (666)

G4742
στίγμα
stigma
stig'-mah
From a primary word στίζω stizō (to "stick", that is, prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition of ownership), that is, (figuratively) scar of service: - mark.
[/QUOTE]

I kind of doubt nonbelievers worshiping the beast are going to want the marks of the wounds of Christ on the cross on them...that is what stigma is mostly known for especially in the Catholic faith and from what I have heard, its extremely painful too.

Especially since the beast says these things: 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[c] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

If this is all as literal as some think its going to be..anything resembling faith in Christ will be repulsed by this beast.

As I said above, I think the mark is spiritual as the seal of God is spiritual.

God bless

Partaker of Christ
Sep 24th 2008, 11:04 PM
The bible says the marks is ON the right hand or ON the forehead...some translations say in...but I believe the correct interpretation is on. A chip will be IN not on. So I don't even think its the chip. Everyone does because they focus on the buy and sell part....but years ago people thought our Social Security numbers were the mark because without it you couldn't work..so you couldn't buy anything...you couldn't get a drivers licenses..a long list of things you couldn't do without that number..

Actually I don't even know how the chip would keep someone from selling anything...:hmm: If we over focus on one thing in a verse, the other things get kind of lost it seems..

There is a thread on here about the mark being spiritual and I tend to agree with that. Alot of bible verses in other parts of the bible regarding a mark or a seal of God. Believers are sealed by God yet there is nothing visable to see. Anyway to answer your question the The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5806) says this about the mark:

(7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.

I think we need to remember while the OT was centered about the physical world...once Christ came He focused on the spiritual world...OUR spiritual condition.





I kind of doubt nonbelievers worshiping the beast are going to want the marks of the wounds of Christ on the cross on them...that is what stigma is mostly known for especially in the Catholic faith and from what I have heard, its extremely painful too.

Especially since the beast says these things: 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[c] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

If this is all as literal as some think its going to be..anything resembling faith in Christ will be repulsed by this beast.

As I said above, I think the mark is spiritual as the seal of God is spiritual.

God bless

I honestly cannot see it being a spiritual mark.

Why does it say 'mark' of the beast, and not 'seal' of the best, if it is the same type thing?

What of those who are neither sealed of God, and refuse the mark (or seal of the beast)

moonglow
Sep 25th 2008, 12:59 AM
I honestly cannot see it being a spiritual mark.

Why does it say 'mark' of the beast, and not 'seal' of the best, if it is the same type thing?

What of those who are neither sealed of God, and refuse the mark (or seal of the beast)

What does Christ say about not choosing one or the other?

Revelation 3:15-17

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Everyday people make choices ..if they refuse Christ, they are following satan. There is no in between.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven

That is why the mark isn't physical...its spiritual.

God bless

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 02:29 AM
I agree...especially since the bible says the mark will be ON, not in...

God bless
Some translation bibles say ON the hand while others say IN the hand.

Some changes that have been made can have grave effects when the end time comes.

In the translation of Rev 13:16 (also Rev 14:1 and 14:11)in the newer versions translate the mark of the beast as a mark "ON" the hand or "ON" the forehead. The KJV translates it as "IN" the hand or "IN" the forehead. Such a small change from the word “in” to the word “on” can have a great effect in the mark of the beast. Within the new translations of the bible, this word change is what caused the invention of the bio-chip.
The man who invented the bio-chip was a Christian. He thought that it could be the mark of the beast. When He read one of the newer versions and saw that it said on the hand and on the forehead, so he thought that since the chip is in the hand and in the forehead it could not be the mark of the beast. When he was shown the KJV as stating that it was IN the hand and IN the forehead, he is now going around the country telling people that he had made a mistake and that it could be the mark of the beast. One little word change caused a Christian to develop the bio-chip. So word changes are very important in Gods word. How many Christians will end up taking the mark because their translation tells them that the mark is "ON" the hand? If the chip is the mark, it will be in the hand and many may take this chip because of these newer translations? BUT the KJV says IN the hand and IN the forehead.

(NIV) Revelation 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead.
(NASB) Rev. 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead
(NLT)Rev. 13:16He required everyone--great and small, rich and poor, slave and free--to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead.
(NKJV) Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads
(KJV) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

When the mark of the beast comes out, many who read the newer versions may take it because these versions tells them that the mark will be on the hand. Since the mark will be in the hand many people may end up taking it.

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 02:42 AM
I truly believe that if a person has eternal life, then that person WILL NOT take the mark of the beast. NO matter what, no man (beast/antichrist) can pluck them out of the father's hand. I also believe that this includes Children.

Only those who's names are NOT written in the book of Life will worship the beast and take his mark. We are told; According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. He chose us (including Children) before the foundation of the world. ALL of which are in the book of life, which will not worship the beast.

Jn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Roelof
Sep 25th 2008, 03:34 AM
χάραγμα - charagma (khä'-räg-mä)

1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
b) the mark branded upon horses

2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
a) of idolatrous images

Nothin' there about electronic gizmos.......

I can guarantee you it was written before the electronic age.

Anyone who thinks that accepting an electronic implant and become part of a world wide system of total human control and worshipping of man and money, is harmless, is welcome to take it. If you end up in hell, do not blame the people that warned you.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 25th 2008, 03:39 AM
I can guarantee you it was written before the electronic age.

Anyone who thinks that accepting an electronic implant and become part of a world wide system of total human control and worshipping of man and money, is harmless, is welcome to take it. If you end up in hell, do not blame the people that warned you.I have stated more than once that the Mark's association with that very worship of the Beast is what makes it evil. I have also stated more than once that I would refuse to participate in said worship. The supposed electronic implant, in and of itself is no more evil than a pacemaker. The worship of the Beast that will apparently be associated with it is what will make it evil. Nothing more, nothing less.

Joe King
Sep 25th 2008, 06:08 AM
When the mark is given, there will be no doubt. I think at the time that it is given out, it will be very obvious what is going on ie: who the aC is and the aC being "resurrected". That's the only way he will be in power in the first place.

People thought our social security numbers was the mark, but there was no one in power and beind denied the opportunity to buy or sell. If they could destroy our salvation by sneaking it by us, they could and would be better served trying it that way.

The mark will be very public. Imagine all of the people with millions of dollars and nice things and them not being able to have it without the mark. There will be millions LINING UP for the mark as it is.

moonglow
Sep 25th 2008, 02:13 PM
Some translation bibles say ON the hand while others say IN the hand.

Some changes that have been made can have grave effects when the end time comes.

In the translation of Rev 13:16 (also Rev 14:1 and 14:11)in the newer versions translate the mark of the beast as a mark "ON" the hand or "ON" the forehead. The KJV translates it as "IN" the hand or "IN" the forehead. Such a small change from the word “in” to the word “on” can have a great effect in the mark of the beast. Within the new translations of the bible, this word change is what caused the invention of the bio-chip.
The man who invented the bio-chip was a Christian. He thought that it could be the mark of the beast. When He read one of the newer versions and saw that it said on the hand and on the forehead, so he thought that since the chip is in the hand and in the forehead it could not be the mark of the beast. When he was shown the KJV as stating that it was IN the hand and IN the forehead, he is now going around the country telling people that he had made a mistake and that it could be the mark of the beast. One little word change caused a Christian to develop the bio-chip. So word changes are very important in Gods word. How many Christians will end up taking the mark because their translation tells them that the mark is "ON" the hand? If the chip is the mark, it will be in the hand and many may take this chip because of these newer translations? BUT the KJV says IN the hand and IN the forehead.

(NIV) Revelation 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead.
(NASB) Rev. 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead
(NLT)Rev. 13:16He required everyone--great and small, rich and poor, slave and free--to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead.
(NKJV) Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads
(KJV) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

When the mark of the beast comes out, many who read the newer versions may take it because these versions tells them that the mark will be on the hand. Since the mark will be in the hand many people may end up taking it.

And if they do it means nothing. Getting the chip means totally nothing! First the bible doesn't say we have to be careful of being tricked out of our salvation. When God makes a promise He holds too it...His promise of salvation doesn't come with small print saying we have to be careful we don't get tricked out of it.

Second the mark always, always includes worship of the beast. Lets say thousands of Christians get the chip...continue worshiping God, reading their bibles, praising Him...does the bible say they will still lose their salvation for having a chip implanted in them...no.

Third...where does this chip have the name of the beast on it?

http://www.av1611.org/666/biochip.html
Is the biochip the Mark of the Beast?
Notice. In these eight verses, the MARK is referred by:

Rev 13:16 "a mark"
Rev 13:17 " the mark"
Rev 14:9 "his mark"
Rev 14:11 "mark of his name"
Rev 15:2 "his mark"
Rev 16:2 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 19:20 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 20:4 "his mark"

Very important: Notice how the mark is personally associated, representative or symbolic of the beast or antichrist:

Rev 14:9 "his mark"
Rev 14:11 "mark of his name"
Rev 15:2 "his mark"
Rev 16:2 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 19:20 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 20:4 "his mark"

Three times (14:9, 15:2, 20:4) it’s called "HIS mark".
Two times (16:2, 19:20) it’s called "the mark OF THE BEAST"
One time (14:11) it’s called "the mark of HIS Name"

These verses, clearly indicate a mark personally symbolic of the beast and his name.

This appears to eliminate a biochip implant. A biochip is basically, a few components in a small glass capsule. There’s nothing symbolic about a biochip, much less the "mark of HIS name".

The mark is also, associated or represented somehow, to his name and his number (666).

Revelation 13:16-18 is, by far, the most quoted and misquoted, verse on the "mark of the beast". Most people limit the "And that no man might buy or sell" only to "the mark" but notice what verse 17 actually says:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name. Rev. 13:17

Very important. The "buying and selling" is NOT just those that have the MARK, but ALSO those that have the NAME of the beast, or the NUMBER of his name.

This is a good read. The person that wrote this holds the pre-trip rapture point of view which I don't hold myself, but he makes some excellent points here.

I also think we need to quit inserting our own ideas into scriptures. Everyone say, well John just explained future things as best as he could so this verse must mean this...(insert something in our modern times) yet the bible says to not ADD anything to it and by assuming John meant these things for 2000 plus years into the future we insert our modern ideas into the text. We hear preachers drill into our heads,...'well they didn't have this technology then like we have today so these things just weren't possible back then.' How does that preacher or anyone know that? Hitler was certainly able to 'mark' the Jews, Christians, homosexuals and handicapped back in his day with tattoos. Tattoos in fact go back thousands of years...we even read about tattoos in the OT! They had the ability to mark people thousands and thousands of years ago in a very literal way. There is nothing in the bible to suggest these things cannot happen until we have more advanced technology. That is ADDING to scriptures.

With all our advanced technology people still get plain old simple tattoos and many do it themselves at home. We could even cover both IN and On with tattoos. The ink goes IN the skin...but shows On the outside.

Leviticus 19:28

28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=le&chapter=019

Nor print any marks upon you
It was a very ancient and a very general custom to carry marks on the body in honour of the object of their worship. All the castes of the Hindoos bear on their foreheads or elsewhere what are called the sectarian marks, which distinguish them, not only in a civil but also in a religious point of view, from each other.

Most of the barbarous nations lately discovered have their faces, arms, breasts, tattooed, probably for superstitious purposes. Ancient writers abound with accounts of marks made on the face, arms, different idols; and to this the inspired penman alludes, Revelation 13:16,17;; 14:9,11;; 15:2;; 16:2;; 19:20;; 20:4, where false worshippers are represented as receiving in their hands and in their forehead the marks of the beast. These were called στιγματα stigmata among the Greeks, and to these St. Paul refers when he says, I bear about in my body the MARKS (stigmata) of the Lord Jesus; Galatians 6:17. I have seen several cases where persons have got the figure of the cross, the Virgin Mary, made on their arms, breasts, punctured, and then a blue colouring matter rubbed in, which is never afterward effaced. All these were done for superstitious purposes, and to such things probably the prohibition in this verse refers.

This is why we have debates still on here about whether its ok for a Christian to get a tattoo. These were done in honor of pagan gods...the Christians getting tattoos today aren't honoring any pagan gods of course.

The original language (greek) shows these verses were written using the word ON...not in:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+13:16&it=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en
13:16 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

kai poiei (5719) pantav, touv mikrouv kai touv megalouv, kai touv plousiouv kai touv ptwxouv, kai touv eleuqerouv kai touv doulouv, ina dwsin (5632) autoiv xaragma epi thv xeirov autwn thv deciav h epi to metwpon autwn,

I know this is hotly debated on the board but the KJV has alot of flaws in it...this is why the newer bibles have changed some wording to correct those flaws. Of course no one has to agree with me on this..just showing you above here the original language used the word ON..not in.

Tattooing people would also be so much more cost effective and for those millions in the world making less then two dollars a day that don't need or ever have banks in their areas, let alone grocery stores with scanners...a chip would be pretty useless to them as far as buying and selling...especially for the millions living in trash dumps around the world. :(

Another thing never covered by those believing the chip is the mark...you discuss only buying with it...never selling. How would the chip be needed to sell something?

God bless

moonglow
Sep 25th 2008, 02:21 PM
When the mark is given, there will be no doubt. I think at the time that it is given out, it will be very obvious what is going on ie: who the aC is and the aC being "resurrected". That's the only way he will be in power in the first place.

People thought our social security numbers was the mark, but there was no one in power and beind denied the opportunity to buy or sell. If they could destroy our salvation by sneaking it by us, they could and would be better served trying it that way.

The mark will be very public. Imagine all of the people with millions of dollars and nice things and them not being able to have it without the mark. There will be millions LINING UP for the mark as it is.

Can you get a job without a social security number? without a job you have no money to buy with. You can't get a passport, can't get a drivers licenses, can't do a billion other things without it in fact...

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Sep 25th 2008, 02:49 PM
Can you get a job without a social security number?Outside the USA, yes you can.

SpokenFor
Sep 25th 2008, 03:44 PM
The "chip" does not have to be implanted IN the skin. New technology now has RFID available as an invisible tattoo ink.

http://www.eetimes.eu/industrial/196900063

According to the website, "it takes five to 10 seconds to "stamp or tattoo" an animal, and there is no need to remove the fur. The ink remains in the dermal layer, and a reader can detect it from 4 feet away." (NOTE: right now, this is being promoted for use on cattle and other animals, not humans.)

"The amount of information contained in the ink depends on the surface area available, he said. The U.S. Department of Agriculture calls for a 15-digit number to track cattle. The first three digits are "840" for the U.S. country code. The remaining digits are unique identifiers. The numbers would link to a database containing more information.

It can say where it has been, who it has talked to, who it has eaten with, and who else it has been in contact with."


Just think about the implications of this technology being used on humans.

moonglow
Sep 25th 2008, 04:12 PM
Outside the USA, yes you can.

Yep, but still many believed this was the mark of the beast because they don't consider the rest of the world...the same thing is happening now with regards to the chip too. People aren't considering how this simply wouldn't work with much of the rest of the world...though at least some are thinking of some of the larger nations in the world. We have to quit focusing only on our own country so much to get a true picture of what scripture is saying. I really wonder about those living in other countries..do they only focus on their country too like this in regards to the end times as much as we do? Saying when it happens here, that means the tribulation started...




SpokenFor :The "chip" does not have to be implanted IN the skin. New technology now has RFID available as an invisible tattoo ink.

http://www.eetimes.eu/industrial/196900063

According to the website, "it takes five to 10 seconds to "stamp or tattoo" an animal, and there is no need to remove the fur. The ink remains in the dermal layer, and a reader can detect it from 4 feet away." (NOTE: right now, this is being promoted for use on cattle and other animals, not humans.)

"The amount of information contained in the ink depends on the surface area available, he said. The U.S. Department of Agriculture calls for a 15-digit number to track cattle. The first three digits are "840" for the U.S. country code. The remaining digits are unique identifiers. The numbers would link to a database containing more information.

It can say where it has been, who it has talked to, who it has eaten with, and who else it has been in contact with."


Just think about the implications of this technology being used on humans.

You know I read that and in content what you quoted...what this guy said, made no sense. He is talking about cattle then says it 'show who IT talked too'...:confused Look:

The U.S. Department of Agriculture calls for a 15-digit number to track cattle. The first three digits are "840" for the U.S. country code. The remaining digits are unique identifiers. The numbers would link to a database containing more information.

"It can say where it has been, who it has talked to, who it has eaten with, and who else it has been in contact with," Pydynowski said.

It goes on to talk about cattle thieves and to be able to tell what the cattle ate in case of an e-coli outbreak. Cows don't talk. If he is talking about people he is calling us 'it'...:confused If he is talking about people they put his quote in the wrong place..its out of content and makes no sense. I can understand tracking cattle..what other cattle they have been with and what they ate to prevent diseases.

It also says this: The ink also could be used to track and rescue soldiers, Pydynowski said.

"It could help identify friends or foes, prevent friendly fire, and help save soldiers' lives," he said. "It's a very scary proposition when you're dealing with humans, but with military personnel, we're talking about saving soldiers' lives and it may be something worthwhile."

Interesting....:hmm:

God bless

Roelof
Sep 25th 2008, 04:19 PM
And if they do it means nothing. Getting the chip means totally nothing!

moonglow

As our friend I know you want to comfort us with the taking / tagging / marking with an electronic biochip.

Let me state the following scenario to you, which the Antichrist might adopt only a few years after people received a biochip ID, which most people will not object to. But then the AC add all your medical info to the biochip, a step which post people would appreciate. Now the AC switch on all the tracking features of the biochip and he can track your movements (this feature will be available mainly in developed countries). Most parents would appreciate to know where their kids are.

Without you objecting to much, you are already part of a total human control system. Then the AC add an electronic wallet which most people will gladly accept. If you then have not the biochip, you would be quite helpless and stuck. Now you will not be able to do any transactions or receive any service from the government. If you have the biochip, you would "worship" a man-made system. The world powers will have full control over many of your activities.

What must Christians do? Give your heart to Jesus and trust the Lord. Now will also be a very good time for the Rapture. God will NEVER let his true children down and WILL always care for us.

At this stage the forces of the AC might force people to take the mark / biochip / tag or else they might be killed. All "hell' will brake loose on earth when God will empty his wrath on the world during the Final Great Tribulation.

This is only a scenario, the true actions of the Final AC might be even worse !!!

The above is one of the reasons it is worthless to set dates for the Rapture and Second Coming. With respect to our Creator, I think it will be "conditioned based" and not date based.

bennie
Sep 25th 2008, 05:51 PM
moonglow

As our friend I know you want to comfort us with the taking / tagging / marking with an electronic biochip.

Let me state the following scenario to you, which the Antichrist might adopt only a few years after people received a biochip ID, which most people will not object to. But then the AC add all your medical info to the biochip, a step which post people would appreciate. Now the AC switch on all the tracking features of the biochip and he can track your movements (this feature will be available mainly in developed countries). Most parents would appreciate to know where their kids are.

Without you objecting to much, you are already part of a total human control system. Then the AC add an electronic wallet which most people will gladly accept. If you then have not the biochip, you would be quite helpless and stuck. Now you will not be able to do any transactions or receive any service from the government. If you have the biochip, you would "worship" a man-made system. The world powers will have full control over many of your activities.

What must Christians do? Give your heart to Jesus and trust the Lord. Now will also be a very good time for the Rapture. God will NEVER let his true children down and WILL always care for us.

At this stage the forces of the AC might force people to take the mark / biochip / tag or else they might be killed. All "hell' will brake loose on earth when God will empty his wrath on the world during the Final Great Tribulation.

This is only a scenario, the true actions of the Final AC might be even worse !!!

The above is one of the reasons it is worthless to set dates for the Rapture and Second Coming. With respect to our Creator, I think it will be "conditioned based" and not date based.


roelof,

you are in south africa, you should know better than anybody how backwords africa as a whole is. there is people that has never seen a lightbolb, let alone some hiteck chip. Trade for them will be the same. They do it without money in some places.
The only way thast this will literally effect them, is by a litteral mark on the hand. Whether people say in or on, same same but different. When A cow get branded, the image gets burned in to there flesh. but it is on there body. does that make sence??

bennie

SeekingWisdom
Sep 25th 2008, 06:45 PM
From a purely privacy point of view, yes it does.Again, from a purely privacy point of view, yes it does cause concern. At a spiritual level, not one bit, until they start attaching spiritual elements to the process of acquiring this "chip".I can go along with that. :yes:

That wouldn't happen initially. In order for it to work you'd have to warm people up to the idea. You'd have to get them to see how useful it is..."if your pet gets lost we can find him"..."you can track your child and protect them from predators" ..."sick of all that medical paperwork, can't keep track of the documents for your old mom and dad, have them implanted".

Satan is not one to just spring something on you like A-HA. He's too smart for that. It has to be slow, gradual, so that people will accept it. He makes things seem good before his real intentions are brought to light.

Satan isn't dumb and he's had plenty of time to see how people work, how they think, and how unsuspecting "Christians" can be lured into doing his work. Nothing is new under the sun so don't sleep on his intelligence or his ability to manipulate well-intentioned people.

Question everything, especially as the months go on.

Roelof
Sep 25th 2008, 06:51 PM
roelof,

you are in south africa, you should know better than anybody how backwords africa as a whole is. .... Trade for them will be the same. They do it without money in some places.
The only way thast this will literally effect them, is by a litteral mark on the hand.
bennie

Bennie

I tried to be not too gloomy and drive people into fear and depression. But let us be honest now. I reckon that in developed countries people will be persuaded to or willingly accept a biochip with full electronic trading and transactions as well as worship the beast (AC). In underdeveloped or poor countries people might be forced into a literal mark and old style of trading as you mentioned, and also be forced into slavery and worship of the beast. The AC will want total human control of all nations and ALL people to worship him.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1800985&postcount=673

I repeat, God will care for His true children, how I do not know, but I trust in Him !!!

Joe King
Sep 25th 2008, 07:23 PM
Can you get a job without a social security number? without a job you have no money to buy with. You can't get a passport, can't get a drivers licenses, can't do a billion other things without it in fact...

God bless

Two things:

1:This is not a global number that is enforced everywhere like it will during the tribulation.

2:Have you heard about illegal immigration and migrant workers?:lol:

Partaker of Christ
Sep 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
What does Christ say about not choosing one or the other?

Revelation 3:15-17

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Everyday people make choices ..if they refuse Christ, they are following satan. There is no in between.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven

That is why the mark isn't physical...its spiritual.

God bless

Hi moonglow!
This says absolutely nothing about the 'mark' of the beast being spiritual.

Your theory would mean that 'all' unbelievers since the death of Jesus Christ, have had this mark of the beast.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 25th 2008, 10:17 PM
The "chip" does not have to be implanted IN the skin. New technology now has RFID available as an invisible tattoo ink.

http://www.eetimes.eu/industrial/196900063

According to the website, "it takes five to 10 seconds to "stamp or tattoo" an animal, and there is no need to remove the fur. The ink remains in the dermal layer, and a reader can detect it from 4 feet away." (NOTE: right now, this is being promoted for use on cattle and other animals, not humans.)

"The amount of information contained in the ink depends on the surface area available, he said. The U.S. Department of Agriculture calls for a 15-digit number to track cattle. The first three digits are "840" for the U.S. country code. The remaining digits are unique identifiers. The numbers would link to a database containing more information.

It can say where it has been, who it has talked to, who it has eaten with, and who else it has been in contact with."


Just think about the implications of this technology being used on humans.

Hi Spokenfor!

That was 2007.
This has been improved since, and can be administered in 2 seconds. It can hold more info dependent on size of area covered.

It can also be 'on' the skin or 'in' the skin.

link for pdf update:

http://dev.somarkinnovations.com/wp-content/somark-platform-technology-capabilities-r21.pdf

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 04:43 AM
Yep, but still many believed this was the mark of the beast because they don't consider the rest of the world...the same thing is happening now with regards to the chip too. People aren't considering how this simply wouldn't work with much of the rest of the world...though at least some are thinking of some of the larger nations in the world. We have to quit focusing only on our own country so much to get a true picture of what scripture is saying. I really wonder about those living in other countries..do they only focus on their country too like this in regards to the end times as much as we do? Saying when it happens here, that means the tribulation started...Sounds like a pretty reasonable perspective to me. :thumbsup:

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 04:52 AM
That wouldn't happen initially. In order for it to work you'd have to warm people up to the idea. You'd have to get them to see how useful it is..."if your pet gets lost we can find him"..."you can track your child and protect them from predators" ..."sick of all that medical paperwork, can't keep track of the documents for your old mom and dad, have them implanted".

Satan is not one to just spring something on you like A-HA. He's too smart for that. It has to be slow, gradual, so that people will accept it. He makes things seem good before his real intentions are brought to light.

Satan isn't dumb and he's had plenty of time to see how people work, how they think, and how unsuspecting "Christians" can be lured into doing his work. Nothing is new under the sun so don't sleep on his intelligence or his ability to manipulate well-intentioned people.

Question everything, especially as the months go on.After you've been around here awhile, you'll find that I'm one of the most cynical, skeptical posters in this forum. I look at everything and anything with suspicion until it passes the muster, so to speak. That includes things like ID chips. The line, however, is the moment when there is a spiritual element attached.

You see, you guys who are getting worked up about the "chip" idea are assuming that the electronic ID idea is the basis for the Mark of the Beast concept, when, in fact, there is NOTHING in the Bible to justify that. The only unique characteristic that the Bible describes for us about this Mark is that people have to worship the "Beast" to get it. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. The only thing we have to be wary of is not worshiping the "Beast". So long as you're not bowing down and declaring a man who is sitting in the Jerusalem temple to be "god", then you're good to go and your way to heaven is in good shape. (So long as you've surrendered your life to Jesus, of course.)

So we need to quit overreacting to the "tyranny" of computer technology. If you're really that concerned about it, then you need to get all your money out of the bank, stock market, etc., convert it into gold and start operating on a totally barter system. Because otherwise, your finances are already subject to tracking right now, without you even having to take "The Chip".

DIZZY
Sep 26th 2008, 12:02 PM
my question is= what will happen to the children of the world during the time of the one world leader? does anybody really know?i'm hoping and praying GOD takes them out of here when the one world leader comes into power.thanks

Hi paradiseinn,
I must agree with Bennie concerning your above question. The Anti-Christ does not care about the human race whether young or old, rich or poor. The Anti-Christ wants all to go to the lake of fire with him.

Revelation 13:16
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,


The thing is children will still be born and around in this period when the Anti-Christ comes into power and those who are left behind after the rapture will be forced to take the mark of the beast, if they refuse they will die. Yes this is a world wide thing it does not just happen in Israel.
Children will suffer the same concequences as any other person. The parents of those who are to young to understand will be responsable for their children receiving or not receiving the mark. If they chose for their child the mark then they will doom their child to the lake of fire. We know this to be truth for God's word does not lie. Rev 13:16 says it all we can not add to it and we can not take away from it.

We all would love to believe children would get a free ticket to heaven but that is not so.

It will be like when Korah, Dathan & Abiram and their families were swallowed up by the earth because they would not follow moses as their leader. The children were also punished for their disobedience, just as the parents and their household will be punished if they take the mark of the beast. You can find out about Korah and the others in Numbers 16

Gods Child
Sep 26th 2008, 12:50 PM
And if they do it means nothing. Getting the chip means totally nothing! First the bible doesn't say we have to be careful of being tricked out of our salvation. When God makes a promise He holds too it...His promise of salvation doesn't come with small print saying we have to be careful we don't get tricked out of it.

What I was trying to show is some translations say IN while other say ON the hand. There is a difference. There is grave effects for changing the Word of God. If one adds or takes away, they are taken out of the book of Life. If they were in the book of life and then taken out...It sounds to me that they lost their salvation.

Rev 22;18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Yes, we do need to be very aware of deception;
Mt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


The reason the Chip is being considered to be the mark of the beast is because the chip has the capability to make it so you could not buy or sell.

I'm not saying the mark of the beast is the chip, but I would Not go around at this point and tell people that it is OK to take it. I believe that when the mark of the beast comes, Christians will recognize it and not take it.

SeekingWisdom
Sep 26th 2008, 01:31 PM
After you've been around here awhile, you'll find that I'm one of the most cynical, skeptical posters in this forum.

The only unique characteristic that the Bible describes for us about this Mark is that people have to worship the "Beast" to get it. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. The only thing we have to be wary of is not worshiping the "Beast". So long as you're not bowing down and declaring a man who is sitting in the Jerusalem temple to be "god", then you're good to go and your way to heaven is in good shape. (So long as you've surrendered your life to Jesus, of course.)


I am cynical too...and skeptical...of everything that man says is good and wonderful.

I believe that God has blessed me with common sense. While I will not bow down and worship the beast, I also won't freely go along with everything that's painted as good and helpful.

Whether the chip will make things easier for the beast or not really doesn't matter because it's still a bad idea. It's still invasive, it's still a means of controlling people, and my common sense tells me that it will be used negatively but people will think it's helpful.

As for the money thing, I don't care if my finances are tracked. I have a few privacy concerns but I'd rather have my bank account tracked than my behind.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 02:44 PM
The Anti-Christ wants all to go to the lake of fire with him.You really think the Antichrist knows he's going to hell? I've always figured that he'll be convinced he doesn't have anything to worry about.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 02:48 PM
The reason the Chip is being considered to be the mark of the beast is because the chip has the capability to make it so you could not buy or sell.That is a distinct possibility. :yes:
I'm not saying the mark of the beast is the chip, but I would Not go around at this point and tell people that it is OK to take it. I believe that when the mark of the beast comes, Christians will recognize it and not take it.Right, I agree. My concern in this discussion is that if we're going to reject it, we need to do so for the right reason. Rejecting it only because it's electronic and happens to fit some preconception about what the Mark will look like is a mistake. What if the Mark turns out to be something totally different?

Now, if we are indeed required to worship the "Beast" in order to get this little gizmo, then by all means, we must reject it without hesitation and not waiver.

Let's just make sure we're doing it for the right reason. :yes:

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 02:50 PM
I'd rather have my bank account tracked than my behind.I can go along with that. :lol:

The way things are going right now, that might not be much of a concern much longer anyway.....:o

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 26th 2008, 03:05 PM
The Anti-Christ wants all to go to the lake of fire with him....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I can guarantee that the anti-christ will not have this in mind when he makes those worship him by taking the mark...

the anti christ at that time will be decieved by Satan himself and will be possessed by him literally....at that time he will believe 'he' is God.. he will lead those who take the mark to believe that he is the messiah... and that u must worship him.. as God and messiah...

He will want 'worship'.. as God Himself receives adoration and worship... he wants to be 'like' God..... its been his desire since the beginning..

In an attempt to build his own paradise and heaven on earth and leading many to believe the same .... this will bring upon him and his psuedo kingdom and followers the 'wrath' of Almighty God...

he will have man and this planet on the brink of total destruction...
It will be an invasion from heaven that will stop the total annihaliation.. an Invasion from the true Messiah.. the King of kings and Lord of lords... only then will he realize his true fate.. as Jesus the Christ touches down outside of Jersualem and finally takes care of the anti christ and his prophet... placing them in the lake of fire.. personally...

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 03:12 PM
The Anti-Christ wants all to go to the lake of fire with him....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I can guarantee that the anti-christ will not have this in mind when he makes those worship him by taking the mark...

the anti christ at that time will be decieved by Satan himself and will be possessed by him literally....at that time he will believe 'he' is God.. he will lead those who take the mark to believe that he is the messiah... and that u must worship him.. as God and messiah...

He will want 'worship'.. as God Himself receives adoration and worship... he wants to be 'like' God..... its been his desire since the beginning..

In an attempt to build his own paradise and heaven on earth and leading many to believe the same .... this will bring upon him and his psuedo kingdom and followers the 'wrath' of Almighty God...

he will have man and this planet on the brink of total destruction...
It will be an invasion from heaven that will stop the total annihaliation.. an Invasion from the true Messiah.. the King of kings and Lord of lords... only then will he realize his true fate.. as Jesus the Christ touches down outside of Jersualem and finally takes care of the anti christ and his prophet... placing them in the lake of fire.. personally... I can't help noticing there's not one Scripture quoted anywhere in this entire post.....if the Antichrist honestly believed he was headed for hell, he'd probably change his ways.

third hero
Sep 26th 2008, 05:40 PM
The Anti-Christ wants all to go to the lake of fire with him....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I can guarantee that the anti-christ will not have this in mind when he makes those worship him by taking the mark...

the anti christ at that time will be decieved by Satan himself and will be possessed by him literally....at that time he will believe 'he' is God.. he will lead those who take the mark to believe that he is the messiah... and that u must worship him.. as God and messiah...

He will want 'worship'.. as God Himself receives adoration and worship... he wants to be 'like' God..... its been his desire since the beginning..

In an attempt to build his own paradise and heaven on earth and leading many to believe the same .... this will bring upon him and his psuedo kingdom and followers the 'wrath' of Almighty God...

he will have man and this planet on the brink of total destruction...
It will be an invasion from heaven that will stop the total annihaliation.. an Invasion from the true Messiah.. the King of kings and Lord of lords... only then will he realize his true fate.. as Jesus the Christ touches down outside of Jersualem and finally takes care of the anti christ and his prophet... placing them in the lake of fire.. personally...

Onw little problem with what you have written here. Acording to scripture, the "AntiChrist" received a mortal wound, as though he had died or was dead for a while, and yet lived. It is a possibility that the AntiChrist is a past emperor that will be resurrected. If that is the case, then it would be a clear possibility that the AntiChrist is already in hell, and have been there for quite a while, only to be freed from the bondage of hell to go to the earth and proclaim himself to be God.

Even if the AntiChrist is only a person who was seduced by Satan, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that the Beast, which you call the AntiChrist, will be posessed. In fact, in Revelation 13, it is said that the Dragon, which is Satan, gave him his authority and power. One can not give and posess at the same time. The reason why the Beast is sent directly into the Lake is because he willfully accepts the power of the Fallen One and personally launches his rebellion against God.

DIZZY
Sep 28th 2008, 11:04 AM
You really think the Antichrist knows he's going to hell? I've always figured that he'll be convinced he doesn't have anything to worry about.

Hi Literalist-Luke,
I am sure you will find the Anti-Christ knows his punishment for disobeying God, just as man knows their punishment for disobeying God. Even the Devil knows he has a short time Rev 12.

Hell is not the same place as the lake of fire. Hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

DIZZY
Sep 28th 2008, 11:19 AM
I can't help noticing there's not one Scripture quoted anywhere in this entire post.....if the Antichrist honestly believed he was headed for hell, he'd probably change his ways.


Hi Literalist-Luke,

How many people walk this earth and have been informed they are going to hell? How many of those people have changed the direction they are going to by excepting the gift from God.

David Taylor
Sep 28th 2008, 12:50 PM
Get back on track ladies and gentleman.

The topic of this thread is:

children and the mark of the beast

jesusfreak123
Sep 29th 2008, 01:20 AM
OK I have a question. Why would you go to Hell if the Mark is forced upon you? Doesn't the Bible say those who CHOOSE the Mark and those who CHOOSE to worship the Beast? What if an infant was forced to take the Mark of the Beast? Would they go to Hell because of their parents decision to make them take the Mark?:confused

moonglow
Sep 29th 2008, 02:46 AM
OK I have a question. Why would you go to Hell if the Mark is forced upon you? Doesn't the Bible say those who CHOOSE the Mark and those who CHOOSE to worship the Beast? What if an infant was forced to take the Mark of the Beast? Would they go to Hell because of their parents decision to make them take the Mark?:confused

A baby cannot worship anything....so no. Plus many believe in the age of accountability too. A child cannot understand what sin is...let alone what God or Jesus are to them. They have to be old enough to make a choice. If you notice all the scriptures is obviously directed towards those old enough to make such choices. The mark means nothing alone by itself. Every scripture on it also includes worship of the beast...

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Sep 29th 2008, 04:45 AM
Hi Literalist-Luke,
I am sure you will find the Anti-Christ knows his punishment for disobeying God, just as man knows their punishment for disobeying God.Most of the lost people I've talked to believe hell is a myth and they have nothing to worry about.
Even the Devil knows he has a short time Rev 12.Well yeah, but Satan has seen God with his own eyes. Humans haven't.
Hell is not the same place as the lake of fire. Hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire.That's right. :yes:

Literalist-Luke
Sep 29th 2008, 04:46 AM
How many people walk this earth and have been informed they are going to hell?Being informed of something doesn't mean you believe it.
How many of those people have changed the direction they are going to by excepting the gift from God.Most of them believe they're OK and have nothing to fear.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 29th 2008, 04:47 AM
Get back on track ladies and gentleman.

The topic of this thread is:

children and the mark of the beastSorry, I didn't see this post until after the previous two posts. I agree - back to topic.