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View Full Version : sorry people i have alot of questions



paradiseinn
Sep 23rd 2008, 01:28 PM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:

vinsight4u8
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:29 PM
One of the easiest ways I know to show the saints will go to heaven is in Rev. 19.
V14 speaks of armies from heaven that come down.
The attire on these armies shows that they are the V8 married saints.
So some other time came and all the saints went to heaven.
Where is the time?
The first verse of this chapter refers us to "Salvation".
Jesus is to appear at the time of salvation; per Hebrews 9:28 and 1 Thes. 5:9.

So let the rapture happen at the start of Rev. 19 - then also shows us the great whore city that is now done corrupting the earth (the city of mystery, Babylon /Tyre in Lebanon) was punished.
God avenged the blood she shed of the saints.

"...hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
REV. 19:2

So - the great tribulation is over against the church, and then the saints get raptured to heaven. The marriage garments are given out. During this time in heaven - the vials have begun on earth (the vials of God's full amount His wrath plagues). At the time of Armageddon (which is the battle of taking down the beast in Rev. 19) the 6th vial is poured and the saints will return from heaven as armies. One of those saints armies must still be overcomers of the beast, so they will go fight him at the Rev 19 battle of Armageddon.
The beast and the false prophet will get cast into the lake of fire and the Word of God rider (Jesus Christ) slays the remnant left in the battle.
Satan is bound - and the saints (all having overcome the beast) now get to reign for 1000 years.
Then Satan is loosed for a bit - and there is a final war with Him - where fire comes down out of heaven and devours.
The devil then also goes into the lake of fire.
The wicked dead get raised - shown their names on not found in the book of life (they were blotted out) and off to the lake they also go.
The still living people will be judged too - and put into two groups - the sheep group and the goats bunch.
The goats part will go to the lake of fire too.
Jesus will bring a new heaven and a new earth - and righteousness in it.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 23rd 2008, 04:54 PM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:The Rapture, which takes place in conjunction with the 2nd Coming, is described in detail in I Thessalonians 4 & 5.

paradiseinn
Sep 24th 2008, 12:14 AM
thank you for your replies

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 04:49 AM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:

Do not stop reading the whole Bible to get the broad "picture"

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 06:42 AM
Do not stop reading the whole Bible to get the broad "picture"

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)
The "wrath to come" does not take place until after the Tribulation, so there is no need for a Pre-Trib Rapture to spare us from His wrath.

Roelof
Sep 24th 2008, 07:58 AM
The "wrath to come" does not take place until after the Tribulation, so there is no need for a Pre-Trib Rapture to spare us from His wrath.

It appears you are post-trib.
I more look at a mid-tribulation, Rapture before the Great Trib or last 3,5 years

(Do not want to argue about it)

godsgirl
Sep 24th 2008, 11:30 AM
And I'm pre=trib. Which means that I believe all Christians will be changed right before the 7 year period the Bible calls the "tribulation"-and will go to be with the Lord.
I believe this for more than one reason, one being- because the Bible gives us the exact number of days between certian events in the 7 year trib-including the return of the Lord to the Earth. (in Daniel) The "rapture" according to scripture will take us by surprise-in that we do not know the Day or the Hour. And when we see these things "begin" to take place-which they already have--we are to "look up for our redemption draws mear" So, I'm not looking for a hole in the ground-but a hole in the sky-that Blessed Hope.
You will find that as you go through scripture some people will disagree on the where/when stuff of Bible prophesy.
The bottom line is =be "pan"-trib. Knowing that it will all "pan" out for the Glory of God and that you will go to be with Him when He calls.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 24th 2008, 02:54 PM
It appears you are post-trib.100% :yes:
I more look at a mid-tribulation, Rapture before the Great Trib or last 3,5 years

(Do not want to argue about it)That's fine.

My heart's Desire
Sep 25th 2008, 03:06 AM
We know there will be a rapture mainly because of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus from the dead. We also know that our corruptable, perishable bodies cannot enter the spiritual realm, we must be changed and the Bible says a change will come and one day we will be like the Lord Jesus for we will see Him as He is.

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 03:19 AM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:

Keep reading, but while you do ask the Holy Spirit to guide you through and help you understand. Pray for truth, wisdom & understanding.

Here are a few scriptures to chew on.

1 Thes 4:15-16 We will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
1 Cor 15:51-52 but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump
Rev 14;15-20 - Jesus comes & gathers his at the 7th trumpet (last trump).
Rev 20;4-5 - This is the first resurrection (rapture) . (which takes place after the mark of the beast. If this is the 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast then there couldn't be a resurrection 7 years prior because this is called the 1st resurrection and places it after the mark of the beast).
Matt 24:29-31 - Jesus tells us it happens Immediately after the tribulation He will gather his elect.

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 03:31 AM
And I'm pre=trib. Which means that I believe all Christians will be changed right before the 7 year period the Bible calls the "tribulation"-and will go to be with the Lord.
I believe this for more than one reason, one being- because the Bible gives us the exact number of days between certian events in the 7 year trib-including the return of the Lord to the Earth. (in Daniel) The "rapture" according to scripture will take us by surprise-in that we do not know the Day or the Hour. And when we see these things "begin" to take place-which they already have--we are to "look up for our redemption draws mear" So, I'm not looking for a hole in the ground-but a hole in the sky-that Blessed Hope.
You will find that as you go through scripture some people will disagree on the where/when stuff of Bible prophesy.
The bottom line is =be "pan"-trib. Knowing that it will all "pan" out for the Glory of God and that you will go to be with Him when He calls.

To be realistic - One day and One hour does not equal 7 years, but that is not what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24. Jesus said no one would know the day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away. The earth does not pass away at the rapture, because we still have the 1000 year reign on earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


There are saints (those who hold the testimony of Jesus) written of all through the book of Revelation. What about them?

godsgirl
Sep 25th 2008, 09:13 AM
To be realistic - One day and One hour does not equal 7 years, but that is not what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24. Jesus said no one would know the day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away. The earth does not pass away at the rapture, because we still have the 1000 year reign on earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


There are saints (those who hold the testimony of Jesus) written of all through the book of Revelation. What about them?


http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html


When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.


As far as the church goes-it is not mentioned after chapter 3 in Revelation-and the church age ends with the words Revelation 4:1, "come up hither," I believe that is a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, after chapter 3 Revelation deals with Israel and the Jewish people. Also, I think that there will be a few people who realise that Jesus Christ is Lord after the rapture,

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 12:46 PM
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.
One day and one hour does not equate to a 3.5 or a 7 year period.
One day is 24 hours and an hour is 60 min. How can we equate 7 years out of that? It maybe true that we would not know the day and hour, but that does not mean we are taken out, because the bible never says we are.
Where I live it might be midnight, but in other places in the world they may be hours ahead or behind me. It’s called time zones. So I might see the next day (midnight) 4 or before someone else. On the other side of the earth it is day when it is night here. They are a whole day ahead of us. So how could we know the day and hour since we are all on different days and hours (time zones)?

Matthew 25 – the virgins – when Christ shuts the door and the others come an knock he says I knew you not to them. Which means they were never saved. This does not show them as being tribulation Saints, because the trib-Saints are said to be brethren, in the Lord, have the faith of Jesus, have the testimony of Jesus, which by all other accounts in the bible is the attributes of someone who is Saved.

To say we are taken out BEFORE, is going against what Jesus said when he said that Immediately AFTER the tribulation he will gather his elect. (Matthew 24:29-31)

Also Rev 20:4-6, which says the 1st resurrection happens after the mark of the beast. If this is the 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast, then there could not have been a 1st resurrection 7 years prior.

1 Cor 15:50-52 says ALL will be changed. If the trib-Saints were not included in that promise of ALL then this scripture lied to them. Also is said that at this time Death is swallowed up in victory. Death is not swallowed up during the tribulation.

2 These 2 is our gathering unto Christ – We are told that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: And that Even him (Jesus), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
If the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of his coming (chapter=subject our gathering unto him), then how can he continue for 7 years. If Jesus coming is after the working of satan, then how can Satan continue 7 years.

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 12:51 PM
As far as the church goes-it is not mentioned after chapter 3 in Revelation-and the church age ends with the words Revelation 4:1, "come up hither," I believe that is a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, after chapter 3 Revelation deals with Israel and the Jewish people. Also, I think that there will be a few people who realise that Jesus Christ is Lord after the rapture,
Many will look at the book of Revelation and say since the word Church is not mentioned, then it must be gone. Aren't there Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:9, 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:11, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

The word “church” is not used at all from Revelation Chapter rev 3:22 to rev 22:16. So if we use that reasoning, (of Church not mentioned) then since Chapter 19-21 does not mention the word Church, then they are not the Church.

Note that just as the specific word "Jews" not being mentioned after Revelation 3:9 in no way requires that there will be no Jews in the tribulation, so the specific word "church" not being mentioned after Revelation 3:22 in no way requires that there will be no church in the tribulation.

Note that the word "church" isn't used in Chapters 19-21 of Revelation, or anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe that these chapters and books don't refer to the church?

If we look at all the myriad descriptions of Christians in all the NT books, how many of these descriptions don't use the specific word "church," but do use other key words and phrases such as "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren,". These are the same key words and phrases used to describe those Christians who will face the coming tribulation? Are those of Revelation not part of the sheepfold?

Why should those "in the Lord" in Revelation 14:13 not be considered to be the church, but those "in the Lord" in Romans 16:11-13, 1 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 2:21, Colossians 4:7, and 1 Thessalonians 3:8 should be?

Aren't the Christians "in the Lord" in the tribulation New Covenant saints, after the cross and after Pentecost, and not Old Covenant saints?

Why should those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 3:9, and James 2:1 should be?

Why should the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 should be?

Does it say the church ends in Revelation 3 and then resumes again in Revelation 19?

Why should the "brethren" in Revelation 6:11 not be considered to be the church, but the "brethren" in Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:9, Romans 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13 should be?

Why do those who hold the testimony of Jesus in Rev 6:9, 11:7, 12:11, 12:17 not be considered the Church, but those that hold the testimony of Jesus in Matt 8:4, Mark 6:11, 13:9, Luke 5:14, 9:5, 21:13, John 3:33, 5:34, 8:17, 21:24, Acts 13:22, 14:3, 22:18, 1Cor 1:6, 2:1, 2Cor 1:12, 2Thes 1:10, 2Tim 1:8, Heb 3:5, 11:5, Rev 1:2, 1:9, 19:10 should be considered the Church. Are not all that hold the testimony of Jesus part of the Church?

Note that no scripture promises anyone a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

The word Church is also not used in 1 Thes 4:15-16, but we conclude that it is the Church. The word Church is also not used in 1 Cor 15:52 and Matt 24:29-31. But we know that it is the church and the same rapture account.

All believers are promised the rapture (resurrection)? So this promise includes all who are "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren," that are described in the book of Revelation. All these are the Church.

Are not all promised redemption that are New Covenant Saints? Will not all that are "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren," that are described in the book of Revelation be part of that promise? (Luke 21:28, Rom 3:24, 8:23, 1cor 1:30, Eph 1:7, 1:14, 4:30, Col 1:14, Heb 9:12, 9:15)

Are not all promised a resurrection that are “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren,"? Are those that are described in the book of Revelation not part of that promise?

Are not all promised a Marriage Supper who are in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren,"? Are those that are described in the book of Revelation not be part of that promise?

If the bible tells us that Jesus will never separate the sheep (Mt 18:13, 25:32, lk 15:4, 15:6, John 10:1-27, Heb 13:20, 1pet 2:25) then why do some contend that those “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren," that are described in the book of Revelation will be left behind (separated from the sheepfold)?

If the scriptures promise all these things to those “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren", then how can those in the book of Revelation be left behind? Would not all these scriptures be a broken promise and a lie unto them if some were left behind? Would Jesus ever break a promise that is written to any believer?


By the scriptures “all” believers are promised a redemption, resurrection and Marriage Supper, so this includes the tribulation Saints. Jesus will not break his promise to anyone. He will never separate the flock.

All those “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren" are part of the flock.

Since we see believers in the tribulation, the resurrection can not happen until all are accounted for and all promises fulfilled, to all believers.

quiet dove
Sep 25th 2008, 11:57 PM
Are not all promised a resurrection that are “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren,"? Are those that are described in the book of Revelation not part of that promise?

Are not all promised a Marriage Supper who are in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren,"? Are those that are described in the book of Revelation not be part of that promise?



All those covered by Christ atoning blood at the Marriage Supper may not necessarily be the Bride. Who are the guest?

My heart's Desire
Sep 26th 2008, 03:26 AM
All those covered by Christ atoning blood at the Marriage Supper may not necessarily be the Bride. Who are the guest?
That's right. Why would the Bride be invited to her own Marriage Supper and why as a guest?

third hero
Sep 26th 2008, 04:17 AM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:

Sorry if I end up repeating what some others wrote, but I didn't bother to read their responses yet. I want to answer this question directly.

There are those who believe that Lord Jesus is going to rapture out the church before the final conflict before the Return of the Lord, where Lord Jesus slays the soldiers of the world, along with their kings, captures the Beast and the false prophet and sends them to the Father for judgment, and has Satan banished into "the Abyss" to be sealed and chained for 1000 years.

I do not fall into that camp.

There are others who believe that a rapture will happen when Christ returns to lay the smackdown on the earth and take posession of it. I fall into this camp.... but let's clear something up first.

The meaning of the word rapture, as used by the modern-day church, is the gathering of believers to heaven, where they will live with Lord Jesus until the last day, when all mankind is judged. I do not believe in the rapture as defined by many in the church today.

What I believe is that a day is coming when the Lord will come from heaven to earth, in clouds of heaven, to gather us up to be with Him, and we will continue to be with Him forever, (Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thes 4:13-18). What differs my definition of rapture with many in the church is that I believe that Lord Jesus is coming to the earth to rule it until Judgment day, and we will rule it with Him, (Rev 19:11-15, 20:4-6).

Now, to finish my answer.

It is true that believers will be here when the Beast set up his kingdom here on earth, and it is equally true that the Beast, (anti-christ), will set out to "purge" the world of all believers. Therefore the believers will be here on earth before the Lord returns. (Revelation 12:17, 13:1-9, Matthew 24:21-28). Therefore, it is my opinion that the Lord will retrieve us as Matthew 24:29 states, which is " Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

Gods Child
Sep 26th 2008, 04:18 AM
All those covered by Christ atoning blood at the Marriage Supper may not necessarily be the Bride. Who are the guest?


According to most pre-trib, when they are raptured they go right to the Marriage Supper and the trib-Saints are left on earth....but then they try to say the trib Saints are the guests.

This does not add up. If they are at the Marriage Supper and the trib Saints are on earth...How could the trib-Saints be the guests? Where does that add up...

Where in the bible are we ever told that anyone who is “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren will be excluded from the promise of the Marriage Supper and would not be the Bride?

With every Marriage you have to have a witness.
The bible tells us who the guests are. They are the angels and the Holly Spirit who bare witness. It is the angels who is with the Lord when the rapture happens and they will be the guests (witnesses).


1 Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mt 25:31 When the[/u] Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him[/u], then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the [/u]Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels[/u],
1 Pet 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 14: 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


But to say that any one who is; “in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," “testimony of Jesus” and "brethren will be left behind is to say that God lied to those Christians when God promised ALL Christians these things.

Since God promised all Christians these things (Marriage Supper/Rapture). When the Trib Saints read those promises, would they not feel that God lied to them. Why would the Trib-Saints follow a God that lied to them.

Since the Bible is quite clear that Jesus will not let one go astray, then it is quite plain that Jesus will not leave one behind.
We will be raptured when ALL are accounted for.
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Rev 19 the Bride is arrayed in white, but so are the Saints of the Great Trib as Rev 7 tells us. Those trib-Saints of Rev 7 are also the Bride.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 07:53 AM
Do not stop reading the whole Bible to get the broad "picture"

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)


Don't try to read it as "from all wrath that is to come". The bible says...
from the wrath

All God would have to do is spare the church from some wrath.

So to get a clearer picture- we could look at 1 Thes. 5:9 - where there it specifically shows that the church will endure any wrath that happens before salvation.

So how do you see that as fitting with Rev. 12?
Rev. 7
Rev 19:1-2,7,14

Rev. 12 What do we find there?
"for the accuser of our brethren is cast down"
Satan was accusing people before he is cast down to go after those very same people.
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb.."
v10
"And I heard a loud voice....Salvation..."
----------------------
!9:!
"After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, ...Salvation..."
19:2 (part_) -"for he hath judged the great whore..."
(Do you realize that mystery, Babylon is done corrupting the earth - and even punished for the shed blood of the saints under her hand ----before there is what happens in V 7?
"Let us be glad and rejoice,...for the marriage of the Lamb is come..."


---------------
Rev. 7:10
"And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation..."
v14
"...These came out of great tribulation..."
----------------------

Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

This shows me that if you see stuff happening in the endtime verses that occurs before "salvation" is mentioned - then the church has yet to go home to heaven in her awaited rapture.

Another verse showing that is.....

1 Thes. 5:9
"'For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

As for being caught up in the clouds at the time of rapture...
Why not place that when the two witnesses rise from the dead?
the 7th trumpet
great earthquake hour

Rev. 11:12
"And they ascended up to heaven, in a cloud..."

Rev. 14:14
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the white cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man..."

Rev. 1:7
"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him..."

This is not the same as when He returns to fight at Armageddon - for there the wicked already know about Hm and have gathered to batte.
It is impossible for this to be the time of 1 Thes. 5 when - the wicked have been saying, Peace.

Peace - it is not in their thoughts!
for they are gathered for battle

Rev. 19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered...to make war..."

but way before that comes the time of the cloud time in Rev. 11 and......
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts..."
(this time is ended by the return of the Lord for His church like a thief (surprise)).
At Armageddon - which is a vial's time
will be a time of preparation for battle.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 08:33 AM
Rev. 3:3
"...If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know..."

Only those that don't watch - won't know the hour.

If - thou - not watch
thou shalt not know what hour I come

2:25
"...hold fast till I come."

But what does this say about when Jesus can come back next?

10:12 "..sat down on the right hand of God;"
(so Jesus is in heaven)
and when will He leave?

V13
"From henceforth expecting til his enemies be made his footstool."
(expecting - means waiting)
so Jesus waits in heaven - and He can't return until it is time to take down His enemies

So how could He come - get the church - and then the beast comes and takes Jerusalem?
Jerusalem will be the place of His throne.
He can't come back - till time to make sure that throne location is His forever! He will take back Jerusalem from the beast - and take the saints home to heaven during the 7th trumpet.

Marriage over, after a bit - He will return - for Armageddon. The armies in chapter 19 will be in the attire showing they are saints from the marriage - to let one battle army then proceed on its way to Armageddon.
The other army can't fight the beast; for they already overcame him - by refusing his mark, etc.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 09:10 AM
I want to add to what God's Chlld said - as to "it is the angels who are with the Lord when the rapture happens".

You place the rapture in Rev. 7 where the saints come out of it and have white robes on. I want to add that
how many angels are standing about the throne then?

"all"

V11
"And all the angels stood round about the throne..."

The angels are back from gathering the saints?

Rev. 7 speaks as to palms are in the hands of this out of great tribulation great multitude.

Okay, why is that part in at the time of the gathering of the saints - rapture?

How about?
Because when Jesus came to Jerusalem last time - the people cut off branches of the palm trees - and said

Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark 11:8-9
"And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way."
"And they went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD:"

John 12:13
"Took branches of palm trees and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Next Jesus came riding in on an ass.
(fulfills the part of the prophecies in Zechariah 9)

9:9
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."


Matthew 23:39
"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

I also understand the 7th trumpet to have begun by Rev. 7's out of great trib multitude time - as the elders in V11 are not stated as "seated" or sitting as in Rev. 11:16 - elders "which sat".

V15 shows these men out of great triblation are in the temple in heaven.
The 5th seal of Rev. 6- shows that all must rest - till all come in.
So the last martyr for Jesus must gives their lives to the death -till any of the slain people for Jesus can stop resting.

V15 - has men in the temple - so why then in Rev. 8 would it toss them all back out - for it is the time of incense?

And - how can all the angels be standing in Rev. 7 -then find seven more angels to add to that bunch for Rev. 8:2?

Therefore - one more proof that Rev. 8 - as the trumpet story - is taking us back - back in time to before the great tribulation began - and the white robe getters of Rev. 7 were slain.

So 7 trumpet angels stand before the throne - then eventually all angels will show up at rapture time?

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 09:36 AM
What group takes their seats after Armageddon?

the armies that came from heaven in chapter 19

Okay, - why is there the part as to trib martyrs - listed as "lived and reigned"? Does that mean we must wait clear till this point - even after Armageddon for the rapture of the church?

no, because the marriage was back in chapter 19
salvation - the appearance time of Jesus Christ - in ch 19

So - then why are the people beheaded listed as "lived and reigned?
Because - John is clearly pointing out that this is the army that came from heaven with Christ in chapter 19 - but did not fight at the battle of ch 19 - Armageddon (given in detail too in chapter 16). Why weren't these beheaded people at the battle? Why did armies of saints come from heaven - but only one army - go fight the battle? Look for yourself -
plural - armies leave heaven
but -
only one army - a single - army shows up later at the battle.

Why?
Because the beheaded, resfused his mark etc. type of people - already had won against the beast. The great tribulation martyred people already had won their victory time against the beast.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 09:54 AM
Matthew 24:33
"..when ye shall see all these things, know it is near..."

The church - will have to endure the time of "all these things".

including V15

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet..."

DIZZY
Sep 26th 2008, 12:10 PM
how do we know that there will be a rapture?the only thing i know is that there will be christians here when the beast system is in power.then GOD takes us out of here before the last battle between jesus and satan.i think...i'm not sure.please people i need an answer.i'm reading the bible now but i'm only in the third book(old testament)i guess i don't have the patience to find out myself thru reading.thanks people:pray:

Hi paradiseinn,
Correct me if I am wrong. Are you a new Christian?

quiet dove
Sep 26th 2008, 05:46 PM
According to most pre-trib, when they are raptured they go right to the Marriage Supper and the trib-Saints are left on earth....but then they try to say the trib Saints are the guests.

This does not add up. If they are at the Marriage Supper and the trib Saints are on earth...How could the trib-Saints be the guests? Where does that add up...

I did not say anything about anyone being excluded from the Marriage Supper. A marriage supper comes after the marriage, correct? As I have always understood pre trib, it would be the wedding happens with those raptured, that leaves the wedding supper for after the wedding and the supper guest. No one saved by Faith is left out.


With every Marriage you have to have a witness.
The bible tells us who the guests are. They are the angels and the Holly Spirit who bare witness. It is the angels who is with the Lord when the rapture happens and they will be the guests (witnesses).


There is nothing in scripture to indicate that the angels must be invited to the wedding or the wedding supper. They will most likely be there celebrating as we are told that they celebrate when a man is saved. But the references in the Gospels to the invited guest gives no indication that the invited guest are angels.

(sorry, my computer died and I am on a loaner so do not have my Bibles to quote from.... and to lazy to type it all out)

With all due respect for angels, they are not heirs, but servants. That is not to say they are less or anything, but they are offered nor can be saved through Christ. The invited guest are those offered salvation, those admited to the wedding supper are those who said yes, as those of the Bride are those who said yes. I have said nothing about or left anyone out that has said yes to Jesus.