PDA

View Full Version : Daniel and the End Time



vinsight4u8
Sep 24th 2008, 11:59 AM
I'll start by asking people if you have ever given thought to that we are not look for ten horns as a group first, but instead - 13?

You may think that Daniel 7 shows ten horns and the man of sin. Okay, I agree - but is there something else there that is a major key?

Why do I think there are 13?
Daniel 7
Daniel saw several visions. He did not just see one continuous message.

V7
"After this I saw in the night visions..."
After what?
After he had already seen the vision that came first in this chapter.
Notice that V7 says "visions" and V2 "vision".

Daniel is seeing a second set of events at V7.

Daniel 7:1
"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions..."
V2
"Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night..."
V3
"...four great beasts came up from the the sea..."


So in V7 is the same fourth beast being seen?
In verse 7, the 4th beast there has ten horns and is stated as "diverse from all the beasts that [were] before [it]..."
V7's 4th beast vision is not quite like the one that happened in verses 2-6.
It is diverse - diverse from all the others that Daniel has already seen.

Daniel 7:3
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another."
V7
"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast...diverse from all the beasts that [were] before [it]; and it had ten horns."

So in the second vision time is where Daniel tells about a second fourth beast and it has ten horns.
So how many horns were on the 4th beast during the first vision of this night?

Daniel began the chapter by letting us know that he will tell the sum (essential content) of the matters. I take this as we are to understand that Daniel has not written it all out detail by detail. Daniel would just give us an overall summary as to what things were shown that night.


Daniel 7:1
"...visions..."
So we have to go in and break them down. We have to dig deeply and see what Daniel has actually told us.

V2
"....I saw in my vision..."
///So here comes a summary of vision one.
four great beasts
came up from the sea
diverse from one another

vision one
first - like a lion
second - like a bear
third - leopard
fourth????
Daniel skipped over this one's description.
Why did he do that? Why didn't Daniel tell us about the looks of the fourth beast for the first vision of that night? Because - he would get a second vision that had a quite similar one - and will link their stories together.

vision - 2
We get a fourth beast description given to us, and this 4th beast has ten horns.
"...there came up among them another little horn..."

Daniel sees "another little horn". But Daniel has seen this dude already once in this chapter.
"...before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots..."
We now know what happened as to the 4th beast in vision 1 of this night. Daniel saw 13 horns and three were plucked up by the roots of this "another little horn" person. (that has "eyes like the eyes of man and a mouth speaking great things)

Verses 11-13 tell what Daniel saw in the time of the second fourth beast vision - "then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake...till the beast was given to the burning flame..."

Notice that the other vision of the little horn lasted clear till the books were opened.
V10
"...the books were opened."

So where are the 13 horns that will get three of their group plucked up by a king of another place?

I don''t know. I have watched euro nations - right now there are 13 - in Europe (on the land) and 2 in the isles.
If the island ones were gone - as in taken over first, then that could leave only 13, but I don't know, so I just keep watching.

vinsight4u8
Sep 24th 2008, 01:59 PM
7:17-18
"These great beasts which [are] four kings...But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom..."
So my question is?
Isn't anyone else wondering why Daniel only described three of them to us?
Where did he see the little horn here that he watched till the saints took the kingdom?
All four great beasts were to be diverse from one another/ per verse 3.

Then if this is to be considered - one of those same four - Why did Daniel add the part as to "diverse" - for we would have already known that?

V19
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast which was diverse from all the others..."

Sounds as if we have five beasts pictured in this story.
The little horn seems to be seen by Daniel twice.
Daniel beheld the little horn with a mouth and eyes...till the books were opened.
And we get a story of how he beheld the horn till his body was given to the burning flame.

See what I'm saying?
Daniel took us clear to the time of the books were opened in V10, and then in V11 begins to refer to the horn again and watches things till the beast is given to the burning flame.

markedward
Sep 24th 2008, 02:23 PM
Explain more clearly why you believe that the fourth beast (the one that is "dreadful and terrible and exceedingly strong and had huge iron teeth ... and it had ten horns") is not the fourth of the four beasts of 7:1-3.

Because, as far as the text goes... it was.

1:3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

1:4 The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.

Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number one.

1:5 And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear.

Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number two.

1:6 After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard.

Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number three.

1:7 After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number four. Daniel directly states this beast. Hand-count, this is the fourth of four, exactly the number Daniel originally saw. There is no reason to interpret the text to say that Daniel has, without warning, switched to a new vision with a different fourth beast. That's eisegesis: Daniel mentions no skipping between multiple visions, he originally said he saw four beasts, we read, consecutively, four beasts, and the whole narration has a continuous flow, so for you to claim that Daniel had multiple visions and that he jumped between the two of them is completely unfound in the text.

vinsight4u8
Sep 24th 2008, 02:36 PM
Hi markedward

What version are you using, because most that I have seen make the word vision - become plural at V7?

"After this I saw in the night visions...diverse from all..."
Now he sees another diverse beast.
How come?

Ch 7
V3
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another."
V17
"These great beasts, which are four..."
V19
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others..."

Daniel tells us.....
V21-23
"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. Until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints..."
So - the same horn story is seen clear till the time of the ancient of days, and the saints judge and possess the kingdom.
V10 takes it clear till the books get opened.
as - in all the way to the great white throne time

Yet - V11 begins an account of a time only lasting tlll when he is cast into the burning flame.

At verse 13 does your bible version show the word "visions"?
///as in now another - a third vision is being seen by Danel that night

vinsight4u8
Sep 24th 2008, 02:46 PM
I wish I could see (if it is correct) what the common theory is as to Daniel 7's meaning - as to 10 horns. But I read it - and saw there were 13 and the little horn that is very mouthy.

Maybe you guys can tell me - once Daniel saw the little horn - what happened?
As in - the little horn was seen - and then how did that vision end?

I ask because I see two different vision endings being shown once that little horn came on the scene.
one - lasts till the books get opened
the other - till the beast is cast into the fire

Daniel heard him mouthing off in two different Daniel 7 visions.

vinsight4u8
Sep 24th 2008, 03:00 PM
The common interpretation just doesn't seem to fit for me.
Why does Daniel seem to only tell us about three beasts - then the second vision of the night starts? Daniel refers to as a fourth beast..and before the chapter ends, he tells us two different times that he saw the mouthy little horn - alongside other horns.

summary
visions

vision
v2
four great beasts
diverse from one another

v7
visions
a fourth beast
diverse from all the others
has ten horns
and aother little horn came up ( the same little horn that plucked up three horns earlier)

beheld - a vision with that horn in it
till the books were opened

and also - till the beast was cast into the flame

V13 gives us yet another vision time.
"And I saw in the night visions, and behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,...his dominion is an everlasting dominion..."

V15
"...the visions of my head troubled me."

bennie
Sep 24th 2008, 11:59 PM
I wish I could see (if it is correct) what the common theory is as to Daniel 7's meaning - as to 10 horns. But I read it - and saw there were 13 and the little horn that is very mouthy.

Maybe you guys can tell me - once Daniel saw the little horn - what happened?
As in - the little horn was seen - and then how did that vision end?

I ask because I see two different vision endings being shown once that little horn came on the scene.
one - lasts till the books get opened
the other - till the beast is cast into the fire

Daniel heard him mouthing off in two different Daniel 7 visions.


hi,

i see what you are saying. dont agree with it thou;).

daniel only speaks of the four beasts. the prophecy does not end with fourth beasst. the little horn plucks up 3 horns, boast a little. Then the court room setting. then the little horn boasting again for a short while. then the beast in fire.

it is all one prophecy Dan7:1-11.
It has an begining point in time and a ending point in time. Nothing in the middle that constetute a new prophecy. No mess no fuss:D


bennie

Gods Child
Sep 25th 2008, 02:55 AM
Rev 13 also includes these same beasts. Although the Eagles wings are not there.

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 25th 2008, 06:50 AM
Throughout Daniel chapter 7 the word chezev/vision is used.

2376 chezev (Aramaic) { khay’-zev}

from 2370; TWOT - 2725a; n m

AV - vision 11, look 1; 12

GK - 10256 { WzjÔ
}*

1) vision, appearance
1a) vision
1b) appearance[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)

It is impossible to break Daniel 7 into portions from the Aramaic word ‘chezev’ 2376.

[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftnref1)Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.


PC:hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 25th 2008, 07:12 AM
Rev 13 also includes these same beasts. Although the Eagles wings are not there.

Hi Gods Child, I am in full agreement with you.:pp
Also I agree with your many points on Daniel 7 on another thread but we had some bad storms for three weeks with power cuts and I could not get back to you.

PC

Roelof
Sep 26th 2008, 10:02 AM
Keeping sending the post guys, I am learning !!!

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 11:45 AM
hi,

i see what you are saying. dont agree with it thou;).

daniel only speaks of the four beasts. the prophecy does not end with fourth beasst. the little horn plucks up 3 horns, boast a little. Then the court room setting. then the little horn boasting again for a short while. then the beast in fire.

it is all one prophecy Dan7:1-11.
It has an begining point in time and a ending point in time. Nothing in the middle that constetute a new prophecy. No mess no fuss:D


bennie

So on a timeline - one prophecy start to the finish.

and we get - four great beasts up from the sea
little horn seen with 10 other horns

he boasts - then the books are opened - then the little horn boasts again
Is that how you see it?

That would mean that at the time long after Armageddon for chapter 19 - where the beast is to get cast into the lake of fire - comes - the books are opened -in chapter 20 - then the little horn beast will start boasting again - and go to the lake again?

huh?

Where did the little horn come from after the fourth beast desciption message started - he boasted - and it lasted clear to the time of the books were opened.

So how is there a little horn left - or even a fourth beast left after this point?
The message took us clear to the time of almost the new heaven and the new earth.

Next up in Daniel 7 - comes the little horn boasts again?
I ask, where Daniel could even get one more from?

The 4th beast story began - lasted clear to the judging at the great white throne scene.

So - where can Daniel now get another little horn from and have it go around boasting?

I say - Daniel saw two fourth beasts.

one message - where he entered the picture was - till the books were opened

the other

till the beast was cast into the burning flame
"destroyed and given to the burning flame"

So one little horn is destroyed and goes to the fire.
(he had been boasting before that time)

And one little horn was seen in a message - that message had him in it boasting, but the prophecy picture didn't stop till the books were opened.

How can the fourth beast story - have two story endings?

one- at the time of the burning flame

the other
ends - when the books are opened

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 12:25 PM
Here's a site that speaks as to the Aramaic wording in Daniel 7.

http://tcliang.im.tku.edu.tw/bible/netbhtm/dan7_notes.htm

Roelof
Sep 26th 2008, 12:35 PM
There should be a correlation between Daniel and Revlations?:

And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1)

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

This is where I get the Ten Regions and "kings" from

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 01:40 PM
What if we look at it as this for Daniel 7?

We are being told about visions that Daniel saw.

V1
"...visions...upon his bed..."

So now let's find out how many visions he saw?

V2
"...I saw in my vision by night..."
four great beasts

V7
"After this I saw in the night visions...a fourth beast..."
doesn't say - great beast
"diverse from all the beasts that were before it"
"it had ten horns"

So the fourth beast in the previous vision - did not have a total of ten horns?

V13
"I saw in the night visions..."
Now we hear about a vision involving seeing the [one] like the Son of man come with the clouds of heaven.

Explanations:

V17
"These great beasts, which are four..."

---------------------------------------------------------
V19
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others.
V20
"And of the ten horns that {were] in his head..."


We were to only get the essential parts to know what went on that night. Okay, then why would we told again - that this in the night and any wording as to "visions" being repeated?

saw visions
then we get told about a vision

then vision -becomes in the plural from -
at verse 7
then in the night part is repeated again for v13.

Since V3 mentions that all the four great beasts are diverse from each other, then why
again at V7 mention the part as to "diverse"?

I say, it is because we are to understand that four great beasts came up from the sea in vision 1. In vision 2, a fourth beast with less horns was seen. It too is diverse -as in diverse from those of vision 1.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2008, 01:58 PM
There should be a correlation between Daniel and Revlations?:

And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1)

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

This is where I get the Ten Regions and "kings" from

If you have the beast - and the ten world regions as the ten horns - then what is the other area or areas that they go out and conquer?

Daniel 11 and other places in the OT show that nations will still exist -such as Egypt, Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Libya, etc.
So I don't look for 10 regions of the world. First you need 11 - plus others - for the beast and the 10 to go and war with.

Daniel 17 shows us that ten willingly give their kingdom to the beast.
So to fit with Daniel 7- three others must be conquered - plucked up by the roots first.

vision 1
four great beasts
4th one - had 13 horns - and then up came the little horn and plucked up three.

vision 2
shows the ten left
reign with him

he is called a beast
///and the other beasts will have their dominion taken away but their lives prolonged

One of those visions lasted - till the beast was given to the burning flame. The other one ended lots later - as it kept showing future events to Daniel - all the way to the books were opened.

Gods Child
Sep 27th 2008, 02:35 AM
Hi Gods Child, I am in full agreement with you.:pp
Also I agree with your many points on Daniel 7 on another thread but we had some bad storms for three weeks with power cuts and I could not get back to you.

PC

Thank you Prophecy Countdown. I agree with the points you made as well.

The storm hit us too. Our Dinning room was turned into a swimming pool. Not really, we only had about 3-5 inches, but cleaning it up and when you have things floating in your dinning room it makes it feel like a swimming pool.
The good news is, I can say I have the cleanest floor in town.

Gods Child
Sep 27th 2008, 03:15 AM
There should be a correlation between Daniel and Revlations?:

And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1)

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

This is where I get the Ten Regions and "kings" from

Are you saying that you think that the world will be split up into 10 regions?

This is very plausible. I have pondered this idea myself and to tell you the truth, I think that yes it could be happening.

The bible tells us the antichrist will have power over all kindreds tongues and nations, but then it tells us that only 10 kings will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
This makes it sound like the world is going to be split up into 10 regions with 10 kings.

Within the United Nations agenda there are plans right now to split the world up into 10 sections. I use to have that in my notes, but I can’t find them now. So I’m going by memory now. But the European Union was one region, N.A.F.T.A was another, APEC Nations is another, Japan, Africa, Asia, China …And I can’t remember what the others were.

Anyways, we can see that Yes, they have the European Union section already in place and they are working on the NAFTA area and so on. So it seems that maybe they are dividing the world into 10 sections and this could very well be what Daniel and the book of Revelation was trying to tell us when it said that only 10 kings give their power to the beast, because the world will be split up into 10 sections by that time with 10 kings. That would make sense if the antichrist has power over all nations, but the nations were split up into 10 regions by then.

I know the majority says that the 10 horns have to come out of Europe, but I’m not so sure that is the case.
We are told that the end times will be as in the days of Noah…Remember The Majority Drowned. So it’s not always good to follow the majority.
I lean more towards the whole world being split up into regions, then I do Europe, because Europe does not equal the whole world, so I do not see how Europe could be the 10 horns.

I’m not saying that the world will be split up into 10 sections, but with the European Union & NAFTA already in process and what the bible says about 10 Kings, It is something to consider. I’m just throwing it out there so people can see that there maybe another possibility than what they are being taught.



Rev 13: 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rerv 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

vinsight4u8
Sep 27th 2008, 11:53 AM
In Daniel chapter 2 - the 4th empire is divided - then out of that strong section of it will come the ten toes.

Roelof
Sep 27th 2008, 05:33 PM
Are you saying that you think that the world will be split up into 10 regions?

The bible tells us the antichrist will have power over all kindreds tongues and nations, but then it tells us that only 10 kings will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
This makes it sound like the world is going to be split up into 10 regions with 10 kings.

Within the United Nations agenda there are plans right now to split the world up into 10 sections.

Please give me the link on the UN

I could not find my post on the Ten Rgions, so here it is again:

The New World Order is planned to be completed by Dec 2012. Two total lunar eclipses or blood moons will occur during 2011. On 6 June 2012 Venus will transit across the disk of the Sun, a rare event according to NASA. A total solar eclipse will happen on 13 Nov 2012.

TEN WORLD REGIONS OR UNIONS

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

In 1968 the Club of Rome held it’s first meeting and proposed that these ten trading regions be known as ten kingdoms. (The World Conspiracy, Nicola M. Nicolov, 1974 pg220 Hard to find book a newer version published 1990 is available for those interested).
In 1968 Israel liberated Jerusalem.
By 1987 the TC (Trilateral Commission) controlled 60% of the worlds wealth through banks, presidents of multi-national, media moguls, politicians and university authorities. (Committee to Restore the Constitution bulletin Dec 1989 Hillarie du Berrier)

I regard 1987 as the year the Last Days started.

The ten regions are not yet completed.

Ten Regions:
1 NAFTA (North American Union)
2 EU
3 APEC or Australasia
4 Middle East / North Africa (Mediterranean Union or Revived Roman Empire)
5 Western Asia / Eastern Europe
6 Central Asia
7 ASEAN
8 Orient
9 African Union
10 South America

vinsight4u8
Sep 29th 2008, 10:20 AM
So the ten get together as a team - as you see it, and then do what?


If the whole world is included in your particular view of the ten - they have nowhere else in the world to go warring after.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{the world}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
= the ten - and the beast from someplace else
do what?
fight - Mars?
some other planet?

Roelof
Sep 29th 2008, 10:26 AM
So the ten get together as a team - as you see it, and then do what?


Total human control; total control over the world economy; one world religion; worship of the AC or beast, etc etc

Mograce2U
Sep 29th 2008, 12:14 PM
Rev 13 also includes these same beasts. Although the Eagles wings are not there.Yet in Daniel the 4th beast is different from the other 3 who came before it; and in Rev 13 the beast we are shown there is said to be LIKE the other 3.

If Daniel is able to see the 4th beast continuing until he is given to the flames, but Rev 13 shows another beast rising up who is like the other 3; could it be there are two beasts in view in Rev - similar yet different? And what do all these beasts have in common other than that they had their effect on Israel's history according to prophecy?

If the Rev 13 beast is a system of government influenced by the 3 beasts it is like, could this not be the Sanhedrin who might fit here? And the false prophet who wears a crown with 2 horns - much like the high priest who also presides over this council may also be in view. Add the harlot who is Jerusalem getting her power from Daniel's beast Rome; and you have all the players in the first century which concern this judgment about to come to Israel. There were 10 rulers in Israel who presided over the city states as prelates of Rome. And Nero fits too as the little horn who speaks blasphemies as the beast whose name equals 666.

The Jewish Sanhedrin and the priesthood both ended in the fire that came upon Jerusalem in 70AD, yet the Roman beast continued on for several more centuries.

vinsight4u8
Oct 5th 2008, 08:41 PM
So the ten regions (not sure how they get one leader for each in your rendition) go out to conquer where?

Antartica?

You can't let the ten horns include the whole world - or they have no one to help the beast rule over.

the ten horns - are not ten regions that make up the entire - or almost entire planet.

Where do they conquer - the moon?
Mars?

vinsight4u8
Oct 5th 2008, 08:43 PM
Daniel 2:40
"..the fourth kingdom..."
V41
"...shall be divided..."

vinsight4u8
Oct 5th 2008, 08:52 PM
The same little horn was seen twice in Daniel 7.

one vision
had him in it
-and ended with the books being opened

the other vision
had him in it
and ended with him given to the burning flame
and - the other beasts (not great beasts) -having their kingdoms taken from them, but their lives prolonged