PDA

View Full Version : I "work" on a secular site with a "religion"



Oregongrown
Sep 26th 2008, 04:51 PM
forum, LOL, and I do mean work, but it does keep me in the Word and I have grown. I don't know if I've helped anyone else, but I've been helped:) I got onto a post this a.m. on the Rapture and the 2 coming of Christ. I know Rapture is not in the bible but bible believers know what Im talking about. I did a little research/reading and this is what I came up with. Opinions, ideas, thoughts, feedback welcome. I posted here because this forum seems to get the most action:) I wrote to the OP:) on his topic.

Ok, first, forgive me if I am covering the same ground again you did BP, but what I looked up, again, was The "Rapture" or better yet, as the bible puts it in 1 Thes 4:13-15

The Comfort of Christ's Coming(NKJV header)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [fn2] sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(also 1 Cor. 15:50-54 again, reiterates)

This, as I believe the Holy Spirit is interpreting to me, is one instance and the 2nd coming of Christ is yet another where He will establish His Kingdom here on Earth. In the first instance, and I believe I am hearing that Jesus will take up ALL believers, first the dead in Christ and then the living believers. So in the 2nd coming, it seems to me that we will be with Him but yet awaiting His Kingdom on Earth which will be our home for eternity. Sort of like, He'll go in and fumigate so that we can move back in, although, it won't be the "old" Earth, but the new.

I can't find where any believers will be "left behind"? If someone can, I am open to learning.

God bless all!! Great topic for this a.m. BP, thank you, denise

Truthinlove
Sep 26th 2008, 06:52 PM
A verse that is KEY to understanding the rapture is the very next verse after what you just quoted.

This is from my blog, this is most of it....


1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives the rapture a name....the Day of the Lord. Clearly the the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from on end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

Oregongrown
Sep 26th 2008, 07:15 PM
A verse that is KEY to understanding the rapture is the very next verse after what you just quoted.

This is from my blog, this is most of it....


1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives the rapture a name....the Day of the Lord. Clearly the the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from on end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.



this info. I will research it. So this is telling that the "Day of the Lord" is not pre trib? That is what I think I am getting here. Then I will have to try and understand the difference between the "rapture" and the 2nd coming. This is saying it is all one? God bless, ysic, denise:)

Truthinlove
Sep 26th 2008, 07:21 PM
this info. I will research it. So this is telling that the "Day of the Lord" is not pre trib? That is what I think I am getting here. Then I will have to try and understand the difference between the "rapture" and the 2nd coming. This is saying it is all one? God bless, ysic, denise:)


Right, not pre-trib.

What that verse says is that the rapture will take place at the Day of the Lord.

Then from other Scriptures we get an idea of when the DOTL will occur, and it will come sometime after the midpoint of the 7 year period.

The rapture is part of the 2nd Coming. It will be the 1st event of Christ's 2nd Coming.

I think it causes issues when people only refer to armageddon as the 2nd Coming!

Christ's 1st Coming to earth encompassed MANY events....His birth, growing up, ministry, death, resurrection and ascension.
Those were ALL part of His 1st Coming.

Likewise the rapture will be the 1st event of His 2nd Coming.

Hope that helps. :)

Oregongrown
Sep 26th 2008, 08:19 PM
Right, not pre-trib.

What that verse says is that the rapture will take place at the Day of the Lord.

Then from other Scriptures we get an idea of when the DOTL will occur, and it will come sometime after the midpoint of the 7 year period.

The rapture is part of the 2nd Coming. It will be the 1st event of Christ's 2nd Coming.

I think it causes issues when people only refer to armageddon as the 2nd Coming!

Christ's 1st Coming to earth encompassed MANY events....His birth, growing up, ministry, death, resurrection and ascension.
Those were ALL part of His 1st Coming.

Likewise the rapture will be the 1st event of His 2nd Coming.

Hope that helps. :)

But I am leaning toward the 2 being separate. I have to read further though and I have been posting on another thread. God bless:) denise:rolleyes:

Oregongrown
Sep 26th 2008, 08:51 PM
"The second coming should also not be confused with the event referred to as the Rapture. The Rapture refers to a time when Jesus Christ will come to remove all believers from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The church holds many positions on the rapture, but the Second Coming is undisputed. The Second Coming is the event when Jesus Christ returns to the earth to defeat evil and establish His reign of justice and peace."

Arrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggg, Im pulling my hair out. Because this statement sounds as if the 2 are separate but I only see "1" 2nd coming of the Lord. If there is another coming before the 2nd coming it would be the 3rd coming??? Right? But, maybe when He supposedly scoops every believer up, He doesn't actually "come" He just "beams us up"??

I am really confused but that's not of God so maybe I will leave this alone until God opens it up to me.

denise, the frustrated:(Sometimes I want to know everything "yesterday" and God just has His own timing, :rofl:

Literalist-Luke
Sep 26th 2008, 09:28 PM
Oregongrown, I understand completely your frustration over so much inconsistency regarding the Rapture. There is a tremendous amount of "junk" that we have added that tends to cloud the issue. I spent a year, as a pre-tribber, re-examining the whole issue. It took me that long to clear my mind of all the pre-conceptions that had cluttered the issue for me. After I was able to strip away all the pre-conceptions and extra teachings, I was forced to conclude that the Rapture takes place in conjunction with the 2nd Coming at the end of the seven-year Tribulation, just prior to the Day of the Lord, which is NOT part of the Tribulation.

Sound to me like you're doing a good job of letting the Bible speak for itself. Just keep it up. :thumbsup:

Oregongrown
Sep 26th 2008, 09:36 PM
Oregongrown, I understand completely your frustration over so much inconsistency regarding the Rapture. There is a tremendous amount of "junk" that we have added that tends to cloud the issue. I spent a year, as a pre-tribber, re-examining the whole issue. It took me that long to clear my mind of all the pre-conceptions that had cluttered the issue for me. After I was able to strip away all the pre-conceptions and extra teachings, I was forced to conclude that the Rapture takes place in conjunction with the 2nd Coming at the end of the seven-year Tribulation, just prior to the Day of the Lord, which is NOT part of the Tribulation.

Sound to me like you're doing a good job of letting the Bible speak for itself. Just keep it up. :thumbsup:

Your reply helped me a lot:) I have to keep things simple as I can. I mean, the Lord knows how to reach me:) and He doesn't make things confusing or difficult for me. So if it starts"feeling" that way, then I know I need to just rest in Him for a bit. And start reading in His Word, not without asking the Holy Spirit to be my Guide though;) ysic, denise

Truthinlove
Sep 27th 2008, 12:27 AM
"The second coming should also not be confused with the event referred to as the Rapture. The Rapture refers to a time when Jesus Christ will come to remove all believers from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The church holds many positions on the rapture, but the Second Coming is undisputed. The Second Coming is the event when Jesus Christ returns to the earth to defeat evil and establish His reign of justice and peace."

Arrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggg, Im pulling my hair out. Because this statement sounds as if the 2 are separate but I only see "1" 2nd coming of the Lord. If there is another coming before the 2nd coming it would be the 3rd coming??? Right? But, maybe when He supposedly scoops every believer up, He doesn't actually "come" He just "beams us up"??

I am really confused but that's not of God so maybe I will leave this alone until God opens it up to me.

denise, the frustrated:(Sometimes I want to know everything "yesterday" and God just has His own timing, :rofl:

It can be frustrating...I know! :hug:

What that person means is the rapture shouldn't be confused with armageddon.

That is true...the rapture and armageddon are of course 2 VERY different events.

The problem comes in when one makes the 2nd Coming = armageddon only.

That is not entirely true. The 2nd Coming encompasses MANY events, (not just armageddon), just like His 1st Coming, and it will BEGIN with the rapture.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 27th 2008, 03:00 AM
Your reply helped me a lot:)That'll be :2cents:. I'll bill ya. :D

Literalist-Luke
Sep 27th 2008, 03:01 AM
It can be frustrating...I know! :hug:

What that person means is the rapture shouldn't be confused with armageddon.

That is true...the rapture and armageddon are of course 2 VERY different events.

The problem comes in when one makes the 2nd Coming = armageddon only.

That is not entirely true. The 2nd Coming encompasses MANY events, (not just armageddon), just like His 1st Coming, and it will BEGIN with the rapture.Very true, good clarification. :thumbsup:

(Good looking font, too! :lol:)

Truthinlove
Sep 27th 2008, 03:57 AM
Very true, good clarification. :thumbsup:

(Good looking font, too! :lol:)

Thanks! ;) :D