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Lady Ashanti
Sep 27th 2008, 02:59 PM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:

danield
Sep 27th 2008, 06:30 PM
One thing that comes to mind for me is that yes indeed Christ will come as a thief in the night even for us post tribbers. Let me give you an analogy, if you live in a high crime area, even those high risk areas thieves come silently in the night. Just because you know that there are going to be thieves does not mean that you know exactly when he will come. And I believe that we as Christians will know the end is near but there will be great hardships that will test our faith.

God Bless

third hero
Sep 27th 2008, 06:50 PM
Ok, I believe that the first portion of the question needs to be answered biblically.


For instance, the dispensational definition of "Rapture" is the point in time when Lord Jesus takes all of the believers to heaven. That definition is unbiblical. Here is why.

Everytime that the Lord or an Apostle mentions anything concerning the retrieving of Believers, He does not mention where the believer goes. It is only mentioned that they are brought to Him, and that they will forever be with Him. Take a look at some of these scriptures.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Notice that the Lord descends from heaven, and we are brought to Him in the air. The meeting place is in the air, and the Lord actually descends. This is the same as what Lord Jesus told the Disciples in Matthew 24.


And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -verses 30-31.

In these verses, the Lord says that He descends and then sends His angels to gather His people. This is the exact same language as what Paul used.

Now, going back to what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, let's see what he called this event that he described.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. -1 Thessalonians 4:15

As you can see, Paul callls the event when He descends and retrieves us "the Coming of the Lord". It is not a "rapture", but the gathering that comes with the Coming of the Lord, the very same gathering that Lord Jesus Himself told the Disciples.

Now understand this, the word rapture is unbiblical, because of the connotations that it is separate than the return of the Lord. It is not separate, but as Lord Jesus and Paul stated, they are one and the same.

With that in mind, we have to ask the question, "when is the coming of the Lord?" We look yet again to Matthew 24 for the answer. Jesus tells us exactly when He is coming, and we need to understand this concept.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Which tribulation? The one He describes from verse 21-28. This is what we call, the Great Tribulation. And so, this is why Jesus will wait until after the Tribulation in to come and retrieve all of us. Because the Bible tells us that this is the time in which He will return.

ananias
Sep 27th 2008, 10:32 PM
Yes, third hero is 100% spot-on.

The trouble with this whole idea of "the tribulation period" or "seven-year tribulation period" is that neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament know the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" period" or "the great tribulation". The term "the great tribulation" and the word "tribulation" has been falsely used by many prophecy teachers in the last 100 years or more to describe the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world.

The only three times the Greek New Testament mentions megas thlipsis (great tribulation), these are in the context of the trib of the saints at the hand of the world - and the great trib of the saints at the hand of the beast immediately precedes the wrath of God.

The Greek words thlibo and thlipsis have been translated as "tribuation" or "affliction" or "distress" or "suffering" etc in the English Bibles. But the word thlibo is always used to describe the trib of the saints, and only two of the roughly 29 times that the word thlipsis appears, is it in the context of the trib of the world at the hand of God, namely, once where Paul says that at the time of the return of Christ, God will repay the world with tribulation (thlipsis) because of the tribulation (thlibo) the world had brought upon the saints; and once where Paul says "tribulation (thlipsis) and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil".

The rest of the time, the New Testament references to thlpsis and thlibo (tribulation) are in the context of the trib of the saints - not of the "trib" of unbelievers.

The "trib" of unbelievers is consistently called wrath in the New Testament - not "tribulation".

We will be saved from God's wrath - not from tribulation or from the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of antichrist.

Remember that Noah was told to get himself and his family into the ark seven days before the wrath of God was poured out in the form of the flood - and Noah and the redeemed family remained until the seventh of seven days, and on the seventh of seven days, God shut the door of the ark, and the wrath of God began to be poured out upon the world in the form of the flood. No-one could enter into the ark after God shut the door on the seventh of seven days:

"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His authority. And no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." (Rev.15: 8).

ananias

DigReal
Sep 27th 2008, 11:37 PM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:


Hi Lady Ashanti. Just here to say I find it interesting that you've gone from pre to mid-trib, just as I've gone from mid to pre-trib. I do however, agree with you about knowing...probably not to the hour, but I think those of us who believe AND watch will have a better and better idea of when as the time grows ever closer. :)

Can't say as I've ever understood a post-trib position. Unless we're talking about those who become believers during the trib. :hmm:

Good subject, though! I'll be following this thread.

jeffweeder
Sep 28th 2008, 01:18 AM
I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...

Good morning Lady

Im a post trib because --
the rapture cannot happen before the ressurection, and the ressurection happens the last day.
Why is it called the last day?


"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky



"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.


The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells


"But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.


This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

All quotes in red suggest that all tribulation will be past ,when the Lord comes to get us.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.


:kiss:

Literalist-Luke
Sep 28th 2008, 01:39 AM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:The purpose of the Post-Trib Rapture is to protect us from the wrath of God that will occur just after the Tribulation, during the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord and the Tribulation are not the same thing.

As for Scriptures, you really don't want me burying this thread in an avalanche of Scriptures......

If you're really interested, I'll start another thread.

Roelof
Sep 28th 2008, 05:01 AM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer,

Lady

I also changed from pre-trib to mid -trib beacuse I believe the wrath of God will be exercised during the last part of the Tribulation.

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

It may sound funny to many people but nowadays I believe after intensive study that the Final Trib will not be 7 years, but will be "conditioned based" and God will determine the length of it.

There will definitely be a Rapture:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise.

vinsight4u8
Sep 29th 2008, 10:02 AM
His purpose of a post-trib rapture?
The church will be spared the vials of God's wrath time, unitl the one that brings the battle of Amrageddon. Then "armies" of saints will come from heaven (that were also in the Rev. 19 marriage.

Of those "armies" of saints- only one will continue on to fight at Armageddon as to taking down the beast.
(the trib saints army already was victorious over the beast by refusing to follow him)


Acts 24:15
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The vials will be the last set of seven plagues. But the church went home to heaven following the start of the 7th trumpet.
Daniel 12 shows there will be two sections of time - 1290 days and then 45 more days.
The vials will take place during those extra 45 days.

Rev. 11:18 shows several events that when the 7th trumpet sounds.
The 24 elders can't sit any longer/ it is time to judge the dead {see 2 Timothy 4:1}.
{Luke 14:14}
time to reward His servants
Rev. {3:23} "...all the churches shall know...I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
V25
"...hold fast till I come."
salvation = when Jesus Christ appears
Hebrews 9:28
Rev. 12:1-12
Rev. 7 9-11
Rev. 19:1

Mograce2U
Sep 29th 2008, 01:20 PM
The word we use to interpret the event we call the rapture is harpazo.

From Strong's:
726. harpazo, har-pad'-zo; from a der. of G138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It is found 18 times in 13 verses in the NT:

Matthew 11:12
Matthew 13:19
John 6:15
John 10:12
John 10:28
John 10:29
Acts 8:39
Acts 23:10
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 Corinthians 12:4
Jude 1:23
Revelation 12:5

But this is the one we want to understand:

(1 Th 4:16-18) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We have 3 examples for what this catching away in 1 Thes 4:17 may be like from Phillip, Paul and John who experienced it:

(Acts 8:39-40) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

(2 Cor 12:2-4) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. {3} And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) {4} How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

(Rev 4:1-2) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. {2} And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

In each case, this catching away did not involve leaving the earth permanently, though Phillip was literally moved to another location. Paul seems to think his catching up to the heavenly vision he was given may have been an OOBE or NDE experience, but he is not sure. What does seem clear though is they were brought into the heavenly realm to see things not otherwise visible in the earth.

1 Thes seems to be a similar experience the living saints will undergo when the dead are raised in that heavenly realm where we would not see such things otherwise. Is the language not similar to these others who were caught up to a vision, employing OT symbology for things concerning the spiritual realm?

If we have been born again then we know the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us and that we will be with Him always. But there was a time before the old covenant age ended that the dead saints had yet to receive this promise which we have. And it seems that the security and knowledge that the promise of the spiritual kingdom had indeed come was not to be manifested until the old temple was no longer standing.

(Heb 9:8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

We know the veil was torn at the cross and that Jesus entered into heaven, but what was not known was whether the way into heaven had been made available to the OT saints or whether the firstfruits from the NT who had died before the temple came down had received their hope yet.

Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus were trying to say that the resurrection had already ocurred and Paul rebuked them (1 Tim 1:20; 2 Tim 2:17). How could they have deceived anybody with this news unless such a thing were to be an unseen spirtual event rather than a physically visible one? What they failed to consider was the prophecy which had not yet been fulfilled in that day when the temple was still standing. The sign of which when that was about to be accomplished, was the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 1st 2008, 04:07 PM
Correct me if Im wrong... but... isnt the reign of the antichrist 7 years, and the first half of it is peace and prosperity and the last half (shortened by God) of terror and turmoil?

It seems to my simple mind that the trib itself is not 7 years long at all! But I am probably just confused-often am!

Literalist-Luke
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:50 AM
Correct me if Im wrong... but... isnt the reign of the antichrist 7 years, and the first half of it is peace and prosperity and the last half (shortened by God) of terror and turmoil?That is a commonly held misconception that has no basis in Scripture.

Joe King
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:54 AM
I use this as my barometer (2nd to the word of God of course). Why would we escape trials and tribulation and a gruesome death when Jesus went through much more than we ever could??

Mograce2U
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:20 PM
I use this as my barometer (2nd to the word of God of course). Why would we escape trials and tribulation and a gruesome death when Jesus went through much more than we ever could??These things can't be escaped in this world, but we have hope, peace with God, His protection and a glorious inheritance; where the world has none of these things:

(John 16:33) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

(John 17:15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

(John 17:24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

It is not that there is nothing fearsome to face in this world, the difference is that we can face those things with faith that the Lord will bring us thru them unscathed - even death - because He has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us and will be with us always (Heb 13:5; Mat 28:20).

Dragonfighter1
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:19 PM
That is a commonly held misconception that has no basis in Scripture.


What is? My question or my confusion? Is the trib 3.5 yrs approx, or 7 yrs??

quiet dove
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:27 PM
What is? My question or my confusion? Is the trib 3.5 yrs approx, or 7 yrs??

That it is a "popular misconception" is a popular "opinion", whether you mean 3.5 or 7 years, someone will have the opinion you are wrong. And of course many will have the opinion you are correct.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:50 AM
What is? My question or my confusion? Is the trib 3.5 yrs approx, or 7 yrs??The first 3.5 years being a period of peace and prosperity.

Jude
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:03 AM
I use this as my barometer (2nd to the word of God of course). Why would we escape trials and tribulation and a gruesome death when Jesus went through much more than we ever could??

Talk about spot on

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/thth850ff107.gif


Jude



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Gods Child
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:24 AM
What is? My question or my confusion? Is the trib 3.5 yrs approx, or 7 yrs??

The 7 years comes from the 70th week that is yet to come.
The 70th week is one week of years, which equals 7 years.

All reference to the tribulation is 3.5 years given as 42 months, 1260 days or time, times and dividing of times (time=1year. times=2years, dividing of time=1/2 year for a total of 3.5 years).
Which Revelation places this 3.5 years as being the last half

What we have then is 7 years (70th week), but the last 3.5 years being the tribulation.

Gods Child
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:42 AM
I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:

Let me ask you....What has been the purpose of the church for the last 2000+ years? Our purpose is to spread the gospel... right?

The Church will have the same purpose during the tribulation, because during the tribulation there is still time to repent. Thus there still is a need for the Church.

God is not going to pull out his army when the fight is still on...Still time to repent.

No where in the bible are we shown where Jesus comes in the clouds prior to the tribulation. The 1st and only time we are shown Jesus comes in the clouds and gather his from the earth is Rev 14:15-17, which is the 7th trumpet.
After the 7th trumpet we do not see any Saints mentioned as being on the earth.

Read Rev 11 the 7th trumpet and Rev 14 (the 7th trumpet) and you will see.

The tribulation ends at the 7th trumpet, because Rev 14 shows that Jesus comes in the clouds, this means there are no more Christians to persecute, thus the end of the tribulation for the Saints.

The tribulation ends when there are no more Christians to persecute and since we are shown that Jesus comes in the clouds at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14) and gathers his from the earth, then that means the tribulation is over when the Christians are gone.

After the 7th trumpet and we are gone, then Gods wrath comes, which is called the vials that are poured out on the ungodly.

Jude
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:55 AM
Gods Child Says..

God is not going to pull out his army when the fight is still on...Still time to repent.

You are quite right here and the battle that's coming will be a battle the
likes of which the world has never seen.


Jude



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Gods Child
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:07 AM
His purpose of a post-trib rapture?
The church will be spared the vials of God's wrath time, unitl the one that brings the battle of Amrageddon. Then "armies" of saints will come from heaven (that were also in the Rev. 19 marriage.

Of those "armies" of saints- only one will continue on to fight at Armageddon as to taking down the beast.
(the trib saints army already was victorious over the beast by refusing to follow him)


Acts 24:15
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The vials will be the last set of seven plagues. But the church went home to heaven following the start of the 7th trumpet.
Daniel 12 shows there will be two sections of time - 1290 days and then 45 more days.
The vials will take place during those extra 45 days.

Rev. 11:18 shows several events that when the 7th trumpet sounds.
The 24 elders can't sit any longer/ it is time to judge the dead {see 2 Timothy 4:1}.
{Luke 14:14}
time to reward His servants
Rev. {3:23} "...all the churches shall know...I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
V25
"...hold fast till I come."
salvation = when Jesus Christ appears
Hebrews 9:28
Rev. 12:1-12
Rev. 7 9-11
Rev. 19:1

Excellent post. I agree.

I wonder have you ever noticed that the 3.5 years seems to last during the 7th trumpet era?

Take a look.... In Rev 10 we are told in the days that the voice of the seventh angel when he shall BEGIN to sound. Then it goes into Rev 11 and we are shown the temple shall be trodden under foot for 42 months (3.5 years) and the two witness prophesy for 1260 days (same 3.5 years). Then we are told that the 7 trumpet sounded.

Between this time period of when the 7th trumpet begins to sound - to the time it finishes sounding, we are shown the 3.5 years between that time period.

If we look at this closely it makes it sound like the last 3.5 years last during the whole time of the 7th trumpet. (from the time it begins to sound - to the time it sounds)


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11: 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I just wondered if anyone else noticed that?

ServantoftheKing
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:26 AM
The purpose of the rapture is not to spare us from tribulation. However, the purpose is found in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

1 Cor 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The Scripturally stated purpose of the rapture at the last trumpet is to change us from perishable to imperishable.


God Bless,
ServantoftheKing

Jude
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:59 AM
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc160/paulsontim/Commentary/397902.jpg

In this the Lord will separate the sheep from the goats and with the coming of the great tribulation will also come a great persecution which will necessitate an Inquisition. A world wide examination by what I believe will be tribunals set up for those that don't worship the beast.

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

third hero
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:25 PM
Let me ask you....What has been the purpose of the church for the last 2000+ years? Our purpose is to spread the gospel... right?

The Church will have the same purpose during the tribulation, because during the tribulation there is still time to repent. Thus there still is a need for the Church.

God is not going to pull out his army when the fight is still on...Still time to repent.

No where in the bible are we shown where Jesus comes in the clouds prior to the tribulation. The 1st and only time we are shown Jesus comes in the clouds and gather his from the earth is Rev 14:15-17, which is the 7th trumpet.
After the 7th trumpet we do not see any Saints mentioned as being on the earth.

Read Rev 11 the 7th trumpet and Rev 14 (the 7th trumpet) and you will see.

The tribulation ends at the 7th trumpet, because Rev 14 shows that Jesus comes in the clouds, this means there are no more Christians to persecute, thus the end of the tribulation for the Saints.

The tribulation ends when there are no more Christians to persecute and since we are shown that Jesus comes in the clouds at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14) and gathers his from the earth, then that means the tribulation is over when the Christians are gone.

After the 7th trumpet and we are gone, then Gods wrath comes, which is called the vials that are poured out on the ungodly.

I agree with most of this post here. But being the pain that I am about the details, I must write this. The Seventh trumpet does not blow for 3.5 years. It is true that the Seventh trumpet of Woe is in fact the Great Tribulation, which starts at chapter 11 and ends at the end of chapter 14. (although chapters 15-16 give details of what God does during the time of the Great Tribulation, with the making and the pouring of the vials of wrath). The Seventh trumpet does signal the Great Tribulation, and the return that is afterward, but I can not believe that it would be blown in heaven for 3.5 years. I am sure that all of the souls under the altar would have their ears ringing by the time it's over:)

Anyway, sorry to be the spoiled sport, but that was my only objection. Carry on!

vinsight4u8
Oct 4th 2008, 02:27 AM
Excellent post. I agree.

I wonder have you ever noticed that the 3.5 years seems to last during the 7th trumpet era?

Take a look.... In Rev 10 we are told in the days that the voice of the seventh angel when he shall BEGIN to sound. Then it goes into Rev 11 and we are shown the temple shall be trodden under foot for 42 months (3.5 years) and the two witness prophesy for 1260 days (same 3.5 years). Then we are told that the 7 trumpet sounded.

Between this time period of when the 7th trumpet begins to sound - to the time it finishes sounding, we are shown the 3.5 years between that time period.

If we look at this closely it makes it sound like the last 3.5 years last during the whole time of the 7th trumpet. (from the time it begins to sound - to the time it sounds)



I just wondered if anyone else noticed that?

I see the 6th trumpet as the entire time of the great tribulation (3.5 years).

Rev. 10:6
"...should be time no longer."
V7
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
. - OT shows that the time against Israel in the end days is foretold to end early.
. God will call back - repent of some of the evil that was to come.
. ..I see that as why the seven thunders part was sealed - as it won't occur.

Rev. 11 refers to two woes.
second and third woes

The angel speaks as to the two being slain during the second woe (as in the 6th trumpet time).
The third woe - will be the hour that can't begin till after the 3.5 days when the two witnesses lie dead - and the wicked world sends gifts to each other.
The third woe -7th trumpet - the great earthquake - resurrection of the just hour.

Rev. 11:15 shows
(7th trumpet begins)

11:18 refers to the nations were angry.

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 09:40 AM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:

We would probably understand the rapture if we knew what it was, as the word "rapture" is not in the scriptures.

If we therefore use the scriptures used for the rapture, they should tell us what it is.

1 Thess. 4:15-18 - The coming of the Lord/ Dead shall arise

1 Corinth. 15:51-54 - The coming of the Lord/Death is swallowed up/Dead shall arise.

Isaiah 25:8 - Death swallowed up.

Isaiah 26:19 - Dead men shall live

Rev. 20:13,14 - Death cast into lake of fire.

The rapture according to the scriptures take place at the return of the Lord. How many time does he return?

Death is conquered at the Lords return, again how many time does the scripture say that the Lord will return?

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 7th 2008, 03:00 PM
I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

Blessings...:hug:
Scripture teaches that all people will be gathered at the same time at the end of this age. Matthew 24:29-31 teaches that Christ will return at the end of the age and the elect will be gathered "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

Matt 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We know from Jesus' explanation of this parable in Matthew 13:36-43 that the wheat are believers and the tares are unbelievers. The harvest is the end of this age. We know from Matthew 24 that the second coming of Christ is at the end of the age. Jesus said that believers and unbelievers would continue to be together on the earth until the end of the age. This means there would be no pre-trib rapture before the end of the age. All people will be gathered at the same time for judgment or reward.

When Christ returns, He will send out His angels. Some will gather the elect. The parable above shows that some will also go and gather the unbelievers for judgment, which will result in them being cast "into a furnace of fire" (Matt 13:42). The elect, on the other hand, will at that time "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:43).

Jesus told another parable that shows that all people will be gathered at the same time.

Matt 13
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This parable, like the parable of the wheat and tares, shows that believers and unbelievers are gathered at the same time and will be separated. Jesus never gave any indication that believers would be taken out of the world 3.5 or 7 years before His second coming and the end of the age. Instead, He taught they would remain right here with the unbelievers right up until the end of the age. It sure seems that if there was a pre-trib Rapture then Jesus would have mentioned it, but He never did.

1 Cor 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The passage above indicates that Jesus is returning at the last trumpet. That means no more trumpets will follow, otherwise it wouldn't be the last. We know a trumpet sounds at His second coming.

1 Thess 4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is describing the same event as the passages above because it is talking about meeting the Lord in the air as the last trumpet sounds. It mentions those who are alive and remain being caught up with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. Remain after what? The "tribulation of those days". Just like Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:24-27. Remember in the 1 Corinthians 15 passage that it says we will not all sleep (die). It says we who are alive and remain until what will be caught up? The coming of the Lord. Which occurs when Jesus descends from heaven. There is not a future second and third coming of Christ. He is only returning once.

Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet, so when it sounds that is when we will all be changed and this mortal will put on immortality, a new immortal body. So the seventh and last trumpet sounds, the mystery of God is finished, and the angels declare that the world belongs to the Lord and it is now the time of judgment and reward. This happens at Christ's return because He says "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev 22:12). The time of judgment and reward comes when He returns. This happens at the seventh and last trumpet that sounds at the end of the age.

Another point I want to make is that the gathering of the elect should be directly related to the catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air because the gathering is directly related to the second coming of Christ here:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This passage directly relates "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto Him". What else can "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" be but His second coming. And what else can "our gathering together unto Him" be referring to but the rapture? So, the catching up of believers to Christ is also referred to as a gathering to Christ. The gathering of the elect that occurs "after the tribulation of those days".

One last point:

2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage is clearly speaking of the second coming of Christ, which we know occurs after the tribulation of those days. It indicates that when Christ returns He will take vengeance on unbelievers. It also indicates that this is the time when the saints are gathered unto Him because it says this is when "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe". That is a description of the rapture because the rapture is the catching up and gathering of believers to Christ.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 7th 2008, 04:08 PM
The word "rapture" is not in the scriptures.It's in the Latin translation.

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 06:26 PM
It's in the Latin translation.

Thanks Literalist-Luke,

Does understanding the events of the rapture help with when it is?

Firstfruits

If we therefore use the scriptures used for the rapture, they should tell us what it is.

1 Thess. 4:15-18 - The coming of the Lord/ Dead shall arise

1 Corinth. 15:51-54 - The coming of the Lord/Death is swallowed up/Dead shall arise.

Isaiah 25:8 - Death swallowed up.

Isaiah 26:19 - Dead men shall live

Rev. 20:13,14 - Death cast into lake of fire.

The rapture according to the scriptures take place at the return of the Lord. How many time does he return?

Death is conquered at the Lords return, again how many time does the scripture say that the Lord will return?

Firstfruits

Literalist-Luke
Oct 7th 2008, 06:49 PM
Does understanding the events of the rapture help with when it is?It does some. The most important way of understanding when the Rapture actually takes place is to understand the original context of pet phrases that so many people cling to in defending their pre-conceived notion of when the Rapture is.

For instance, Pre-Tribbers love to quote Jesus' statement that "In my Father's house are many mansions" (an unfortunately poor translation on the KJV's part) followed by the statement that He is going there to prepare a place for us. Pre-Tribbers just automatically assume that Jesus is referring to "mansions" that we will live in in Heaven while the earth destroys itself during the seven-year Tribulation. The same Pre-Tribbers ignore the fact that every single reference to the Father's "house" throughout the Bible (including from Jesus' very own lips in other places, even including the same Gospel of John where the "In my Father's house" phrase comes from) consistently refers to the temple in Jerusalem. There are no exceptions to this.

There are other examples as well, but I could hijack this entire thread in the process of discussing it all.

The bottom line is that the key is simply having the big picture and being aware of the details that make up that big picture. :)

Firstfruits
Oct 8th 2008, 08:02 AM
It does some. The most important way of understanding when the Rapture actually takes place is to understand the original context of pet phrases that so many people cling to in defending their pre-conceived notion of when the Rapture is.

For instance, Pre-Tribbers love to quote Jesus' statement that "In my Father's house are many mansions" (an unfortunately poor translation on the KJV's part) followed by the statement that He is going there to prepare a place for us. Pre-Tribbers just automatically assume that Jesus is referring to "mansions" that we will live in in Heaven while the earth destroys itself during the seven-year Tribulation. The same Pre-Tribbers ignore the fact that every single reference to the Father's "house" throughout the Bible (including from Jesus' very own lips in other places, even including the same Gospel of John where the "In my Father's house" phrase comes from) consistently refers to the temple in Jerusalem. There are no exceptions to this.

There are other examples as well, but I could hijack this entire thread in the process of discussing it all.

The bottom line is that the key is simply having the big picture and being aware of the details that make up that big picture. :)

Thanks Literalist-Luke,

I am glad that it was helpful, we sure need to see the big picture.

Firstfruits