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davidslaine
Sep 28th 2008, 02:23 AM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

davidslaine
Sep 28th 2008, 02:41 AM
anyone???????????????????

Slug1
Sep 28th 2008, 02:46 AM
Just like our choice to follow God as a choice of freewill as we accept Him, the AC will do the same. I really would not expect him to be satisfied with people who don't worship him willingly.

I'd have to look but those that don't worship the beast and accept the mark will be killed.

edit:

Rev 13: 14 He deceives those who live on the earth (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-31298A)) because of the signs that he is permitted to perform on behalf of the beast, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-31298B)) telling those who live on the earth to make an image [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-31298a)] of the beast who had the sword wound yet lived. 15 He was permitted to give a spirit [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-31299b)] to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-31300c)] on his [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-31300d)] right hand or on his [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-31300e)] forehead,

moonglow
Sep 28th 2008, 02:58 AM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

The bible says those refusing it will be killed..not forced to take it.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years

God Bless

jh099
Sep 28th 2008, 03:12 AM
The bible says those refusing it will be killed..not forced to take it.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years
The word accepted implies that they approved of receiving the mark, though.

moonglow
Sep 28th 2008, 03:23 AM
The word accepted implies that they approved of receiving the mark, though.

Then why were they killed? If the mark was forced on them...why kill them?

If you notice every single verse about the mark includes worship of the beast...they are never separated. The mark includes the name of the beast too. The only way a Christian could do both is to renounce their faith in Christ...but this isn't what the bible says happens..

As Slug also posted:

Rev 13: 14 He deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that he is permitted to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image of the beast who had the sword wound yet lived. 15 He was permitted to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,

God bless

davidslaine
Sep 28th 2008, 03:38 AM
Guys, you guys are misunderstanding.. Im saying what if they forced you to the point where they unwillingly implanted you instead of executing you. that is the point, it doesnt matter if the bible says they will execute you, the point is what if they forcefully implanted you. that is the point

Literalist-Luke
Sep 28th 2008, 03:44 AM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??It would be irrelevant. Look closer at Revelation 13. The worship of the image of the Beast is what condemns you. If you refuse to worship, they'll lop off your head. And then you go straight to heaven, do not pass go, do not pass $200.

Besides, the notion of an internally implanted chip is completely without basis in the Bible. That is an assumption on the part of people who are trying to "see" the Tribulation in the world around us and go around being sensationalists, acting like it's going to start tomorrow. Would that cooler heads would prevail and we would allow the Bible to simply mean what it says and nothing more.

moonglow
Sep 28th 2008, 03:48 AM
Guys, you guys are misunderstanding.. Im saying what if they forced you to the point where they unwillingly implanted you instead of executing you. that is the point, it doesnt matter if the bible says they will execute you, the point is what if they forcefully implanted you. that is the point

It doesn't matter what the bible says? :confused I think you need to believe what the bible says and not worry about something that isn't going to happen...

But to answer your question as I just said to the other poster, the mark and worship of the beast always go together...the mark alone means nothing! Unless you worship the beast..its meaningless...ok? No one can take your salvation from you...as the bible says!

Romans 8

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

My heart's Desire
Sep 28th 2008, 03:52 AM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.


In TV shows that might possibly happen, but in real life if one is a true believer in Christ why would God allow that to happen? I don't believe He would!

On the other side, why would the AC mess with the very few who are unwilling when he will have worship of most of the world who will be willing to take it?

Slug1
Sep 28th 2008, 03:56 AM
Guys, you guys are misunderstanding.. Im saying what if they forced you to the point where they unwillingly implanted you instead of executing you. that is the point, it doesnt matter if the bible says they will execute you, the point is what if they forcefully implanted you. that is the pointThe AC won't want unwilling worshipers, remember... PRIDE got him tossed from heaven. All those who "accept" the mark... accepted it. They take it willingly or die.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 28th 2008, 04:00 AM
It doesn't matter what the bible says?I don't think that's precisely the way he meant it, I think he was simply saying that the point was being missed.

davidslaine
Sep 28th 2008, 04:04 AM
also, Aaron Russo had an interview with a member from the Rockefeller family(the people that control everything, print money, and have like more than 20 trillion dollar worth), he said that the ultimate goal was to implant everyone with a chip and have world domination. something tells me that the end is coming sooner than we think.

also, when i said it dont matter what the bible says, i didnt mean it in a bad way, i just said what IF some random guy forcefully implanted you thats all.

but im assuming that thats not going to ever happen so yeah, no worries.

and honestly, thats a easy way to heaven, considering how beheading is almost an instant death.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 28th 2008, 04:09 AM
also, Aaron Russo had an interview with a member from the Rockefeller family(the people that control everything, print money, and have like more than 20 trillion dollar worth), he said that the ultimate goal was to implant everyone with a chip and have world domination. something tells me that the end is coming sooner than we think.

also, when i said it dont matter what the bible says, i didnt mean it in a bad way, i just said what IF some random guy forcefully implanted you thats all.

but im assuming that thats not going to ever happen so yeah, no worries.

and honestly, thats a easy way to heaven, considering how beheading is almost an instant death.Um, not to be morbid or anything, but you do remain conscious for a moment afterward, and besides that, you're also assuming that the cutting stroke would be quick. Muslims use a saw or a sword, not a guillotine.

davidslaine
Sep 28th 2008, 04:16 AM
Um, not to be morbid or anything, but you do remain conscious for a moment afterward, and besides that, you're also assuming that the cutting stroke would be quick. Muslims use a saw or a sword, not a guillotine.


lets just hope your not conscious for a very long time afterwards if you get where im coming from

Bethany67
Sep 28th 2008, 08:44 AM
To be grisly for a moment - when they beheaded Mary Queen of Scots, the first axe-blow went wrong and cut into the back of her head. The bystanders saw her lips move and thought she said 'Sweet Jesus.' Then the second blow cut through most of her neck. The axeman had to use the axe like a saw to separate the last bit of sinew. So in her case it wasn't the quick clean death predicted, but I doubt she was conscious for more than a few seconds as the axeman made the second swing.

Unfortunately Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, executed at age 67 during the time of Henry VIII, required 10 or 11 blows of the axe. They hit her shoulder first; one report says she got up and tried to run, the executioner hacking at her as she went. A gruesome thought, if it really happened that way. The guillotine by comparison was quick.

DeafPosttrib
Sep 28th 2008, 11:55 AM
I am amazing that almost everyone at Bibleforum saying, they will not force Christians or anyone to receive mark.

Rev. 13:15 says, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and CAUSE that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

This tells us, Antichrist will have the power to war or persecute against Christians, and will set the new law(Dan. 7:25), for required all individuals to have the mark(like idea as have I.D.), if anyone refuse to have the mark, will put to death.

Looking at Church history in the past. During Spanish Inquistion Era, Catholics were persecuting against Christians, they were torturing them trying to convert them into Catholics while torture them same time while Christians were refuse convert become Catholics, were suffering dying toward death. Keep in mind, suppose if, a Christian finally give up on Catholic's persuade for converting, then torture will halt immediate. Same with Police or soldiers would persuade Christians for must have the mark, they will torturing them by force them to have it. Christians will be suffering as torture toward death. I am sure that some Christians might give up of their beliefs, and willing to stay alive and want to stop being suffering. Then, Police or soldiers would halt torture them immediately, as anyone Christians, who finally accept the mark.

Rev. 13:7 tells us, Satan will make WAR with the saints. 'War' sounds to me, that Police or soldiers will force saints to accept the mark.

Will any Christians accept the mark? Possible. Only God knows them.

I do strong believe that Revelation 13:7-16 telling us very clear that many Christians will be force to accept the mark, if refuse, must put to death immediately.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

crush
Sep 28th 2008, 12:01 PM
*shrugs*

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell

moonglow
Sep 28th 2008, 02:50 PM
I am amazing that almost everyone at Bibleforum saying, they will not force Christians or anyone to receive mark.

Rev. 13:15 says, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and CAUSE that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

This tells us, Antichrist will have the power to war or persecute against Christians, and will set the new law(Dan. 7:25), for required all individuals to have the mark(like idea as have I.D.), if anyone refuse to have the mark, will put to death.

Looking at Church history in the past. During Spanish Inquistion Era, Catholics were persecuting against Christians, they were torturing them trying to convert them into Catholics while torture them same time while Christians were refuse convert become Catholics, were suffering dying toward death. Keep in mind, suppose if, a Christian finally give up on Catholic's persuade for converting, then torture will halt immediate. Same with Police or soldiers would persuade Christians for must have the mark, they will torturing them by force them to have it. Christians will be suffering as torture toward death. I am sure that some Christians might give up of their beliefs, and willing to stay alive and want to stop being suffering. Then, Police or soldiers would halt torture them immediately, as anyone Christians, who finally accept the mark.

Rev. 13:7 tells us, Satan will make WAR with the saints. 'War' sounds to me, that Police or soldiers will force saints to accept the mark.

Will any Christians accept the mark? Possible. Only God knows them.

I do strong believe that Revelation 13:7-16 telling us very clear that many Christians will be force to accept the mark, if refuse, must put to death immediately.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Sorry but this just isn't what the bible says...it says those who's names are NOT written in the book of life will worship the beast and take the mark...

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

If you aren't saved you will follow the beast...if you are you won't and you will be killed. There just is no verse saying the mark is forced on anyone or that they are tortured into taking it. I think killing those who refuse would be considered war...since war usually involves killing...right?

As Slug pointed out being forced to worship the beast and take the mark would be meaningless as it wouldn't be true. The person wouldn't really want to do that and most of all satan wants true worship...not fake and forced...it would mean nothing.

God bless

threebigrocks
Sep 28th 2008, 09:12 PM
I read this earlier and thought it was already in the End Times forum. Moving it there for continued discussion.

third hero
Sep 28th 2008, 09:31 PM
I am amazing that almost everyone at Bibleforum saying, they will not force Christians or anyone to receive mark.

Rev. 13:15 says, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and CAUSE that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

This tells us, Antichrist will have the power to war or persecute against Christians, and will set the new law(Dan. 7:25), for required all individuals to have the mark(like idea as have I.D.), if anyone refuse to have the mark, will put to death.

Looking at Church history in the past. During Spanish Inquistion Era, Catholics were persecuting against Christians, they were torturing them trying to convert them into Catholics while torture them same time while Christians were refuse convert become Catholics, were suffering dying toward death. Keep in mind, suppose if, a Christian finally give up on Catholic's persuade for converting, then torture will halt immediate. Same with Police or soldiers would persuade Christians for must have the mark, they will torturing them by force them to have it. Christians will be suffering as torture toward death. I am sure that some Christians might give up of their beliefs, and willing to stay alive and want to stop being suffering. Then, Police or soldiers would halt torture them immediately, as anyone Christians, who finally accept the mark.

Rev. 13:7 tells us, Satan will make WAR with the saints. 'War' sounds to me, that Police or soldiers will force saints to accept the mark.

Will any Christians accept the mark? Possible. Only God knows them.

I do strong believe that Revelation 13:7-16 telling us very clear that many Christians will be force to accept the mark, if refuse, must put to death immediately.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You know, there is a reason why Lord Jesus warns us about that time. There is a reason why Jesus said that it wil be unlike anything from the creation of the world and will never be equalled again. The governments alligned with the Beast will most definitely torture, maim, and do whatever it take to convert a person to the religion of the Beast. Those who refuse will MOST CERTAINLY BE PUT TO DEATH. The Bible is very clear on this, and if anyone is saying that the physical nations will not do what the Bible clearly says that they will, then I do not know what else to say.

Alyssa S
Sep 29th 2008, 01:06 AM
Um, not to be morbid or anything, but you do remain conscious for a moment afterward, and besides that, you're also assuming that the cutting stroke would be quick. Muslims use a saw or a sword, not a guillotine.

Uhhp!!!!!!!! :eek:

RevLogos
Sep 29th 2008, 03:48 AM
"
To be grisly for a moment - when they beheaded Mary Queen of Scots, the first axe-blow went wrong and cut into the back of her head. The bystanders saw her lips move and thought she said 'Sweet Jesus.' Then the second blow cut through most of her neck. The axeman had to use the axe like a saw to separate the last bit of sinew. So in her case it wasn't the quick clean death predicted, but I doubt she was conscious for more than a few seconds as the axeman made the second swing.

Unfortunately Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, executed at age 67 during the time of Henry VIII, required 10 or 11 blows of the axe. They hit her shoulder first; one report says she got up and tried to run, the executioner hacking at her as she went. A gruesome thought, if it really happened that way. The guillotine by comparison was quick.

I watched a video clip of a talk show on a Saudi TV station - something like Good Morning America. They interviewed a Saudi executioner from Mecca. Nothing grisly, it's the tone of the whole interview that is gripping. They could have been talking to a gardener about when to plant daisy's.

http://memritv.org/

Scroll down to "Favorite Clips" and select the one titled "#1322 - Saudi Government-Appointed Executioner for Mecca, Abdallah Al-Bishi, Discusses His Calling and Demonstrates His Weapons and Methods"

DIZZY
Sep 29th 2008, 06:28 AM
Guys, you guys are misunderstanding.. Im saying what if they forced you to the point where they unwillingly implanted you instead of executing you. that is the point, it doesnt matter if the bible says they will execute you, the point is what if they forcefully implanted you. that is the point

Hi davidslaine,
There is nowhere in the bible where it says the mark of the beast will be forced on anyone.

Revelation 15:1-3
1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his markand over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:


“ Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!

The bible tells us it is a choice do not try adding to what the bible says, no one is pinned down and forced to take the mark.

Roelof
Sep 29th 2008, 10:35 AM
also, Aaron Russo had an interview with a member from the Rockefeller family(the people that control everything, print money, and have like more than 20 trillion dollar worth), he said that the ultimate goal was to implant everyone with a chip and have world domination. something tells me that the end is coming sooner than we think.


Please supply or PM me the link.

I fully agree that the Final Tribulation is very near, as close as 2012 as I read the signs and has posted in many threads.

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 01:47 PM
Honestly, I keep seeing the title of this thread and can't help but think the following.

So what. If it's forced, it's not our choice, and is it not in our heart and Who resides there that matters? No man can force us into anything and have it be from the heart. It's those who take it willingly that are in trouble. We choose to love and follow Christ.

Be strong enough to endure. The time we are in now gives us ample opportunity to increase our faith and build a foundation that nobody, not satan himself, can shake.

RabbiKnife
Sep 29th 2008, 01:51 PM
If you believe that a physical mark is what Scripture is really talking about, then yes, you would go to hell.

moonglow
Sep 29th 2008, 01:52 PM
Honestly, I keep seeing the title of this thread and can't help but think the following.

So what. If it's forced, it's not our choice, and is it not in our heart and Who resides there that matters? No man can force us into anything and have it be from the heart. It's those who take it willingly that are in trouble. We choose to love and follow Christ.

Be strong enough to endure. The time we are in now gives us ample opportunity to increase our faith and build a foundation that nobody, not satan himself, can shake.

Agreed. People seem to think that the beast or someone else is somehow more powerful then God and can steal away our salvation but this simply isn't true. Satan was created by God and is always under His control. His powers aren't any where on the same level as God's. So why all this fear of having the mark forced on us as if it would cause us to lose our salvation when the bible says nothing can seperate us from God's love...not even the power of hell!


Romans
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?

36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

moonglow
Sep 29th 2008, 01:57 PM
If you believe that a physical mark is what Scripture is really talking about, then yes, you would go to hell.

Every single scripture includes worship of the beast along with the mark. If it was that easy to cause us all to lose our salvation then God is weaker then the devil and this just isn't true! If it was true...then we are all doomed to hell because satan will make sure the mark is forced on us all...and no one will be saved...no one will be going to Heaven...all is lost...satan has won!!!

That is basically what you are saying and its not backed by scripture...

The bible tells us Christ has won!!! He has victory!!! Not satan. We simply cannot lose our salvation that easily or satan would have been marking us the second Christ ascended back to Heaven....

John146
Sep 29th 2008, 04:53 PM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??Those who have the mark of the beast are destined for the lake of fire. Is salvation determined by something physical or something spiritual? I don't believe the mark of the beast is a physical mark because it is related to whether one is saved or not. By having the mark it means someone is not saved and does not have their name in the book of life. Therefore, it is not possible for the scenario you're asking about to take place. There's no chance someone could lose their salvation just because they were made to be unconscious and had someone implant a chip in them.

The mark of the beast is directly related to someone worshiping the beast. The two go hand in hand. One can't have the mark of the beast without also worshiping the beast. I believe it is the result of worshiping the beast and one giving their allegiance to Satan and the beast that causes them to have a spiritual mark indicating that they belong to Satan and his beast. In the same vein, when we give our allegiance to God and put our faith and trust in Christ then we are sealed (marked) by the Holy Spirit.

moonglow
Sep 29th 2008, 06:17 PM
Those who have the mark of the beast are destined for the lake of fire. Is salvation determined by something physical or something spiritual? I don't believe the mark of the beast is a physical mark because it is related to whether one is saved or not. By having the mark it means someone is not saved and does not have their name in the book of life. Therefore, it is not possible for the scenario you're asking about to take place. There's no chance someone could lose their salvation just because they were made to be unconscious and had someone implant a chip in them.

The mark of the beast is directly related to someone worshiping the beast. The two go hand in hand. One can't have the mark of the beast without also worshiping the beast. I believe it is the result of worshiping the beast and one giving their allegiance to Satan and the beast that causes them to have a spiritual mark indicating that they belong to Satan and his beast. In the same vein, when we give our allegiance to God and put our faith and trust in Christ then we are sealed (marked) by the Holy Spirit.

Right! Which many of us keep saying but on several threads some are convicted you lose your salvation even if its forced on you...:( Yet there is no scriptures supporting their beliefs on that...

God bless

White Spider
Sep 29th 2008, 10:13 PM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

I believe heaven or hell would be determined on what you did after receiving the mark under said conditions.

Though the theory of the mark seems to resonate in it's part worship of the beast, so in that aspect you can't really be forced to worship someone.

- - - - - - - -

Personally, I'd remove it if at all possible. If it means my entire arm, so be it.

Whatever it takes, I will remove it. If impossible to remove without killing myself, I will find a way to martyr myself. [ :o I sound like a lunatic Muslim, :rofl: ]

In a non-suicidal way, suicide should not be considered, but if I have to throw a Bible at the Beast to get shot I'll do it :D

RevLogos
Sep 29th 2008, 10:59 PM
We are saved by what’s in our heart, not what’s burned in to our skin. Only God knows; to God it’s black and white – wheat and chaff – sheep and goats. My view is that if this mark is physical, it will be done in such a way as to know clearly what’s in one’s heart. You might for example, be required to persecute and kill fellow Christians if you take the mark.

A real-life example may help illustrate. Everyone know who George Soros is? In 1944 he was a Hungarian Jew, a boy about 14 years old. He and his father escaped the Nazi’s by assimilating, claiming to be Christian. Most Jews caught in Nazi peril preferred to save their souls at the expense of their earthly lives; George Soros and his father accepted an alternative Faustian bargain. According to an interview he gave, he recalls watching his fellow Jews get marched off to death camps. He recalls helping the Nazi’s by confiscating the property of the Jews. According to his biography, Soros recalls these times as being “the most exciting time in my life.” (Kaufmann p 48).

Now let’s fast-forward to the future tribulations. You have a choice. Take the mark, assimilate, and possibly survive, or save your soul. Think carefully. This decision may cost you your life. You may see your wife and children killed in front of you.

What do you do?

moonglow
Sep 29th 2008, 11:19 PM
We are saved by what’s in our heart, not what’s burned in to our skin. Only God knows; to God it’s black and white – wheat and chaff – sheep and goats. My view is that if this mark is physical, it will be done in such a way as to know clearly what’s in one’s heart. You might for example, be required to persecute and kill fellow Christians if you take the mark.

A real-life example may help illustrate. Everyone know who George Soros is? In 1944 he was a Hungarian Jew, a boy about 14 years old. He and his father escaped the Nazi’s by assimilating, claiming to be Christian. Most Jews caught in Nazi peril preferred to save their souls at the expense of their earthly lives; George Soros and his father accepted an alternative Faustian bargain. According to an interview he gave, he recalls watching his fellow Jews get marched off to death camps. He recalls helping the Nazi’s by confiscating the property of the Jews. According to his biography, Soros recalls these times as being “the most exciting time in my life.” (Kaufmann p 48).


I don't understand this as Christians were also killed...polish Christian. http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm


Now let’s fast-forward to the future tribulations. You have a choice. Take the mark, assimilate, and possibly survive, or save your soul. Think carefully. This decision may cost you your life. You may see your wife and children killed in front of you.

What do you do?

Two seconds later you are dead too and joining them in Heaven...

God bless

RevLogos
Sep 30th 2008, 12:24 AM
I don't understand this as Christians were also killed...polish Christian. http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm



I don't want to detract too much from the thought experiment, which is: at what point does one lose one's soul? Is it the mark? Or is it your actions? Did Soros make a deal with the devil? Or did he cleverly beat the system? What we saw facing the Jews in Nazi Europe may parallel what Christians see in the tribulations. We will be faced with terrible decisions.

But as I understand it, for the most part Christians were not killed because they were Christian. They were killed because they resisted, or they were handicapped, or homosexual, or some other reason. Poland might be an exception as I understand they wiped out much of the Catholic church.

moonglow
Sep 30th 2008, 01:12 AM
I don't want to detract too much from the thought experiment, which is: at what point does one lose one's soul? Is it the mark? Or is it your actions? Did Soros make a deal with the devil? Or did he cleverly beat the system? What we saw facing the Jews in Nazi Europe may parallel what Christians see in the tribulations. We will be faced with terrible decisions.

But as I understand it, for the most part Christians were not killed because they were Christian. They were killed because they resisted, or they were handicapped, or homosexual, or some other reason. Poland might be an exception as I understand they wiped out much of the Catholic church.

Yea...sorry..not trying to derail the topic...I was just surprised to read what you wrote because my understanding was the Christians were as hunted as the Jews...and then it got to be pretty much anyone that was in his way of taking over the world...like when he invaded Russia...I don't think they were asking what faith each solider was at that point...or the other countries he invaded...:(

We always hear of the story of Corrie ten Boom who was a Christian. Anyway...sorry to get off topic...

God bless

White Spider
Sep 30th 2008, 01:55 AM
We are saved by what’s in our heart, not what’s burned in to our skin. Only God knows; to God it’s black and white – wheat and chaff – sheep and goats. My view is that if this mark is physical, it will be done in such a way as to know clearly what’s in one’s heart. You might for example, be required to persecute and kill fellow Christians if you take the mark.

A real-life example may help illustrate. Everyone know who George Soros is? In 1944 he was a Hungarian Jew, a boy about 14 years old. He and his father escaped the Nazi’s by assimilating, claiming to be Christian. Most Jews caught in Nazi peril preferred to save their souls at the expense of their earthly lives; George Soros and his father accepted an alternative Faustian bargain. According to an interview he gave, he recalls watching his fellow Jews get marched off to death camps. He recalls helping the Nazi’s by confiscating the property of the Jews. According to his biography, Soros recalls these times as being “the most exciting time in my life.” (Kaufmann p 48).

Now let’s fast-forward to the future tribulations. You have a choice. Take the mark, assimilate, and possibly survive, or save your soul. Think carefully. This decision may cost you your life. You may see your wife and children killed in front of you.

What do you do?

Just wanted to highlight a few points there . . .

Answering the question posed here in a form directed to everyone.

Everyone should realize there is only one thing to do . . . this earthly life we have all been given serves one purpose: Accept Christ and worship the One True God, or NOT?

Everything else is meaningless . . .

Your life means nothing, it's not the end, there is no point in fearing death . . . in fact death is the beginning, don't worry about losing your life.

Everyone must face the fact WE ALL DIE and there is no point letting death make a decision for us.

As hard as it may be, it's likely many of us will have to watched love ones die . . . we may not follow them closely in death. In fact you probably won't, Satan is not stupid, he knows the best chance of ripping you away from God would to let you live with the pain of seeing your wife/husband/children die.

One cannot let death affect them, instead praise God for sparing them the pain you are feeling.

Satan will play games with the minds and hearts of Christians, he will easily win over those who are not Christian, but the Christians he will fight tooth and nail for . . . Nothing will hurt God more than a Christian turning and denouncing Him . . . Satan knows this and will do anything he can to pull you away from Christ.

Put everything into perspective and realize your life, the life of your family and friends, all mean nothing . . . when they die they are not gone . . . it is ridiculous to let such things affect you in such a dramatic way.

I may sound heartless, but I'm just being reasonable. (Losing your favorite bouncy ball may be a sad thing, but it doesn't matter. Losing a loved one may be devastating, but you'll see them again, don't worry about it.)

Don't let fear dictate your souls salvation. FEAR ONLY GOD!

third hero
Sep 30th 2008, 04:31 AM
I don't want to detract too much from the thought experiment, which is: at what point does one lose one's soul? Is it the mark? Or is it your actions? Did Soros make a deal with the devil? Or did he cleverly beat the system? What we saw facing the Jews in Nazi Europe may parallel what Christians see in the tribulations. We will be faced with terrible decisions.

But as I understand it, for the most part Christians were not killed because they were Christian. They were killed because they resisted, or they were handicapped, or homosexual, or some other reason. Poland might be an exception as I understand they wiped out much of the Catholic church.

Revolvr, there is no difference between taking the Mark and your actions, because taking the Mark IS an action all and in of itself. Did Soros make a deal with the Devil? Absolutely. He was not a Christian, he only acted as one. He helped the Nazis kill off both Jews and Christians. That makes him slime and of the house of Satan. Honestly, a man like Soros can not be trusted, because he stabbed people in the back, and did what everyone who will seek self-preservation will do, go along with whoever's in power at that time. All of them, like the Beast, will be sent to the Lake, without excuse. It is not a matter of the heart.

It is not the matter of intention. It IS a matter of actions. By our works will we be judged. Not only us, but also the entire world form all generations.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -Revelation 20:13

third hero
Sep 30th 2008, 04:35 AM
There is a reason why the Lord said this:

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. -Matthew 16:25

I hope this helps a little.

acacia_gold
Sep 30th 2008, 10:36 AM
The mark of the Lord if it's studied out is coming out of Eygpt, iow, not being of the world. The mark of the beast is to be of the world to buy and sell. It's a heart thing. The Father knows the heart.

My heart's Desire
Sep 30th 2008, 05:31 PM
It's a good question and human nature could ask it. We've seen on T.V lots of situations of people given drugs, people taken places they don't want to go by being knocked out etc.

I give these verses for consideration though to see if the mark is given in that fashion.

Revelation 13:15
And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Those who did not worship the beast were killed.
Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
Where they victorious over the beast and all that pertained to him because they were killed when they did not worship him?
Revelation 14:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead.
He causes all? Does that mean he forces all to be given the mark or is the cause that they receive the mark because they worship him first?
I think the verses show a progression. Those who do not willingly worship him are killed and those who are left who did worship him are the ones who he causes to receive the mark so no, I don't think there will be any unwilling marking of anyone. In the book of Daniel 3: 1-6 I believe we have an example. The king set up the image to which all must bow down and worship when the sounds were played. Those who did not worship then were thrown immediately into the blazing furnace.
What think ye?

moonglow
Oct 1st 2008, 02:58 PM
It's a good question and human nature could ask it. We've seen on T.V lots of situations of people given drugs, people taken places they don't want to go by being knocked out etc.

I give these verses for consideration though to see if the mark is given in that fashion.

Revelation 13:15
And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Those who did not worship the beast were killed.
Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
Where they victorious over the beast and all that pertained to him because they were killed when they did not worship him?
Revelation 14:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead.
He causes all? Does that mean he forces all to be given the mark or is the cause that they receive the mark because they worship him first?
I think the verses show a progression. Those who do not willingly worship him are killed and those who are left who did worship him are the ones who he causes to receive the mark so no, I don't think there will be any unwilling marking of anyone. In the book of Daniel 3: 1-6 I believe we have an example. The king set up the image to which all must bow down and worship when the sounds were played. Those who did not worship then were thrown immediately into the blazing furnace.
What think ye?

I think you are right! We need to stick to what the bible says on this (as you are) and quit guessing and feeding the fear on this man made idea of what might happen. The bible tells us God does not give us the spirit of fear!

God Bless

Partaker of Christ
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:29 PM
Every single scripture includes worship of the beast along with the mark. If it was that easy to cause us all to lose our salvation then God is weaker then the devil and this just isn't true! If it was true...then we are all doomed to hell because satan will make sure the mark is forced on us all...and no one will be saved...no one will be going to Heaven...all is lost...satan has won!!!

That is basically what you are saying and its not backed by scripture...

The bible tells us Christ has won!!! He has victory!!! Not satan. We simply cannot lose our salvation that easily or satan would have been marking us the second Christ ascended back to Heaven....

And a BIG AMEN to that moonglow!! :pp

tango
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:38 PM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

Given the consequences of taking the mark:

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

It seems to me that the mark has to be more than a purely physical thing. It might have a physical element, but I cannot believe that someone could lose their salvation through nothing more than being involuntarily marked. If that were the case all the agents of Satan would need to do is mark people while they were sleeping.

If the mark is a physical stain/implant based on the willingness to worship the beast it would make no sense to force it on the unwilling, as it would grant the benefits of having the mark without requiring the worship of the beast.

DIZZY
Oct 4th 2008, 12:06 AM
There is no scripture supporting the mark will be forced on anyone.
The bible says anyone who receives the mark, that means anyone whether forced or not.

Those who refuse the mark will be killed not forced to take the mark. The bible is plain in what it states no one will be forced.

Revelation 13:16-18
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

We are told that those who receive the mark are deceived, the true followers of Christ in those days will not be deceived. We are the elect, chosen to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Mark 13:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Is it possible to deceive the elect? No.
Why?

John 8:31-32
The Truth Shall Make You Free

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Be assured my friend the mark will not be forced on anyone, those living during this period will have to make a choice and as christians that choice is pretty simple isn't it. If i were there I would rather die than take the mark.

Roelof
Oct 4th 2008, 07:16 PM
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1812143&postcount=736

acacia_gold
Oct 4th 2008, 11:03 PM
Playing the devil's advocate here but what if we already have the mark of the beast. I can't get a job w/o my s.i.n. number (social insurance #) My heart won't bow but what if my flesh already has. Is law/grace iow physical/spiritual at play here

markedward
Oct 4th 2008, 11:07 PM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.Does the Scripture say this will be a scenario? All it says is that they will kill people for not taking it.

This scenario is irrelevant, because the Revelation only says that people will be killed for refusing to take it.

paradiseinn
Oct 5th 2008, 12:00 AM
hey people,
we will be killed before the mark comes out because we will refuse to worship the image of the beast.know what i mean.

tango
Oct 5th 2008, 12:31 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here but what if we already have the mark of the beast. I can't get a job w/o my s.i.n. number (social insurance #) My heart won't bow but what if my flesh already has. Is law/grace iow physical/spiritual at play here

Doubtful. What Revelation is describing looks global, and your SIN number is country-specific. For now, at least.

My heart's Desire
Oct 5th 2008, 03:10 AM
I think you are right! We need to stick to what the bible says on this (as you are) and quit guessing and feeding the fear on this man made idea of what might happen. The bible tells us God does not give us the spirit of fear!

God BlessThank you for noticing the truth. God's Word is truth. I think the verses seem pretty plain here. Glad you noticed that too! :)

dan
Oct 5th 2008, 10:26 AM
What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

But then you would still have to refuse to worship him, and that would be fatal. But no, God would not send you to hell as long as you refused to worship.

Also, I believe that he will enjoy the false worship of those that took the mark just to save their own lives. Because he will not be a believer, IMO.
He will also enjoy desecrating the temple over and over again because he hates the, "foolishness of religion". So, he will not destroy the temple.

RabbiKnife
Oct 6th 2008, 06:02 PM
I don't believe that the "mark" is something written on, burned on, implanted in, or tatooed on or under the skin.

The "mark" is allegiance to a system of belief that sets the AntiChrist up as God.

If you believe that it is a future yet to be accomlished event, that is.

Amillenialists are not troubled by this hypothetical.

David Taylor
Oct 6th 2008, 08:10 PM
What if they forced you to take the Mark of the Beast?? What if you were to take it by force? What if they did not kill you if you refused, but they forced you to take the mark by pretty much getting you unconscious then implanting you or grabbing you and implanting it.

Would you still go to hell for it, or will you be saved because you refused it and they forced you to take it.

What would you do if you had the mark implanted to you by force??

If you belong to Christ; He'll never leave you or forsake you!!!


John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

Deuteronomy 4:30 "When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee"

Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

DIZZY
Oct 8th 2008, 12:08 PM
hey people,
we will be killed before the mark comes out because we will refuse to worship the image of the beast.know what i mean.

Hi Paradiseinn,
We will not be around when the image of the beast is made or the mark of the beast is ordered. We will be raptured out of here, we have not been appointed for God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

We wait for Jesus to return for us, He will appear from heaven to those who are waiting for Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (died), or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (died) in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died). 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead (the dead in the ground) in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 01:33 PM
Hi Paradiseinn,
We will not be around when the image of the beast is made or the mark of the beast is ordered. We will be raptured out of here, we have not been appointed for God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

We wait for Jesus to return for us, He will appear from heaven to those who are waiting for Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (died), or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (died) in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died). 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead (the dead in the ground) in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

There is a difference between the wrath of God and the persecution of the beast...clearly Jesus says we will be persecuted...correct?

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.

Of course from my end times view point this already happened. Look at who Jesus was talking too? The disciples and every single one of them except for John was killed. Also when God did pour His wrath out on Jerusalem as Jesus talked about here...history shows us all the believers, when they saw the city surrounded by the Roman army (as we read in Luke 21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:20-22;&version=51;) which is about this same thing) they heeded Jesus' words and fled the city so God's promise they would be spared His wrath was indeed fulfilled. The 1 Thessalonians you quoted is about the Second Coming.....the resurrection...other wise you have Jesus returning at least two more times! Once for the rapture and again for the Second Coming...:hmm:

God bless

acacia_gold
Oct 8th 2008, 07:37 PM
Doubtful. What Revelation is describing looks global, and your SIN number is country-specific. For now, at least.That makes sence that it would be global. :(

Partaker of Christ
Oct 8th 2008, 11:22 PM
I think you are right! We need to stick to what the bible says on this (as you are) and quit guessing and feeding the fear on this man made idea of what might happen. The bible tells us God does not give us the spirit of fear!

God Bless

I don't think it is about feeding fear. To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

1Pe 4:1a Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind.

When we consider what may lay ahead for us, then in our own understanding it can seem quite frightening.

I was watching the TV the other day, and this guy was being subjected to torture. He had to talk or face more of the same. It did not take him long to talk.
I thought to myself, what if that were me and I had to renounce my faith (I have a very low threshold when it comes to pain :D). When I look to my own strength I despair of what I would possibly do.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding:

The truth (that anchors my soul) is, if/when the time comes, the Lord will supply our needs. He will give us the faith, the peace, the strength and all that we need to stand firm.
It is of no use looking for that supply now, because at this moment in time, He has not called us to face that dilemma. When the time comes He will be faithful and supply all our needs. What we need to do and be doing, is to look to Him (be wise virgins).

I sometimes fear for those who believe and say that they will not deny the Lord, for they may be relying on their own strength, and our own strength is finite. When I am weak, then I am strong.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 12:51 AM
I don't think it is about feeding fear. To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

1Pe 4:1a Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind.

When we consider what may lay ahead for us, then in our own understanding it can seem quite frightening.

I was watching the TV the other day, and this guy was being subjected to torture. He had to talk or face more of the same. It did not take him long to talk.
I thought to myself, what if that were me and I had to renounce my faith (I have a very low threshold when it comes to pain :D). When I look to my own strength I despair of what I would possibly do.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding:

The truth (that anchors my soul) is, if/when the time comes, the Lord will supply our needs. He will give us the faith, the peace, the strength and all that we need to stand firm.
It is of no use looking for that supply now, because at this moment in time, He has not called us to face that dilemma. When the time comes He will be faithful and supply all our needs. What we need to do and be doing, is to look to Him (be wise virgins).

I sometimes fear for those who believe and say that they will not deny the Lord, for they may be relying on their own strength, and our own strength is finite. When I am weak, then I am strong.

And how does the bible say to be forearmed? Does it say to talk to each other about the most gruesome things we can image that might happen to us? Will that help? No...if anything it only causes fear and anxiety! Jesus' disciples knew they were going to be killed for their faith but we see no example of them sitting around talking about what might happen. I think Paul makes it clear the battle is spiritual anyway and tells us how to prepare for it.

Ephesians 6

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Jesus readied Himself before His arrest by going off alone and praying. He only asked His disciples to pray too.

I just don't see anyone really telling us how to ready ourselves. We hear, get ready, be ready but no one says really how too they just talk about the terrible things that might happen to us. I honestly do not see how that is helpful. The biggest thing we need to be doing is working on our relationship with God so we have Him to lean on.

In reality most Christians die of natural causes, accidents or illness and not by being killed! That is a fact..

We need to be praying for those in other parts of the world who are being killed for their faith and if one day we face such a thing as the beast...we can all be in prayer for each other as we should be.

God bless

DIZZY
Oct 9th 2008, 03:38 AM
There is a difference between the wrath of God and the persecution of the beast...clearly Jesus says we will be persecuted...correct?

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.

Of course from my end times view point this already happened. Look at who Jesus was talking too? The disciples and every single one of them except for John was killed. Also when God did pour His wrath out on Jerusalem as Jesus talked about here...history shows us all the believers, when they saw the city surrounded by the Roman army (as we read in Luke 21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021:20-22;&version=51;) which is about this same thing) they heeded Jesus' words and fled the city so God's promise they would be spared His wrath was indeed fulfilled. The 1 Thessalonians you quoted is about the Second Coming.....the resurrection...other wise you have Jesus returning at least two more times! Once for the rapture and again for the Second Coming...:hmm:

God bless

Yes God's wrath is totally different to the persecution of Satan. For we must fear Him who can destroy both body and soul.

Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When Satan and his angels are cast permanently out of heaven his wrath is turned against the children of God.

Revelation 12:7-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath.

He has been cast out of the heavens with his fallen angels they are now earth bound, millions of demons walking the earth causing havoc. Satan no longer can enter heaven to accuse the brethren before God there is no longer a place found for Satan and his angels in heaven, he is earth bound and he is angry, he knows he only has a short time.

All over the earth christians will feel the wrath of Satan in their flesh, for he will have them put to death if they do not worship the beast and his image.


Matthew 24:9-10
9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.

This has happened yes but the verse has a double reference and the second reference is to still come.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

And it will come.

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 09:56 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here but what if we already have the mark of the beast. I can't get a job w/o my s.i.n. number (social insurance #) My heart won't bow but what if my flesh already has. Is law/grace iow physical/spiritual at play here

How long has the Social security number been in existence? Is it worn on either thde forehead or the right hand? Is the number of the Social security number the same for everyone?

If your answers are in this order:
-more than three years
-no
-no
Then the social security number is NOT the Mark of the Beast.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 9th 2008, 11:14 PM
And how does the bible say to be forearmed? Does it say to talk to each other about the most gruesome things we can image that might happen to us? Will that help? No...if anything it only causes fear and anxiety! Jesus' disciples knew they were going to be killed for their faith but we see no example of them sitting around talking about what might happen. I think Paul makes it clear the battle is spiritual anyway and tells us how to prepare for it.

Ephesians 6

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Jesus readied Himself before His arrest by going off alone and praying. He only asked His disciples to pray too.

I just don't see anyone really telling us how to ready ourselves. We hear, get ready, be ready but no one says really how too they just talk about the terrible things that might happen to us. I honestly do not see how that is helpful. The biggest thing we need to be doing is working on our relationship with God so we have Him to lean on.

In reality most Christians die of natural causes, accidents or illness and not by being killed! That is a fact..

We need to be praying for those in other parts of the world who are being killed for their faith and if one day we face such a thing as the beast...we can all be in prayer for each other as we should be.

God bless

1Pe 4:1a Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind.

Why do you believe that we are not working on our relationship with Christ, or that we do not pray for those in other parts of the world, who suffer persecution?

Not as many Christians would die of natural causes, if the 'churches' would be separate and stand on the true gospel.