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ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 06:09 PM
This subject came up and began to be debated in the "Foxes Book of Martyrs thread" and the person who started that thread respectfully asked that we debate the issue in a separate thread.

1 Tribulation

"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33)


"... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act 14:22)

2 Wrath

"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9)

"He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.
(Joh 3:36)

The New Testament does not refer to the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" or "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation"

Check it out for yourselves:

Greek: "megas thlipsis" (great tribulation):

In Rev.2: 22, the Lord Jesus warns THE CHRISTIANS at Thyatira that unless they repent of following the doctrines of the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself will throw them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works (Rev.2: 18-23).

Rev.7: 14 identifies the multitude of saints who had come out from “the great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Mat.24: 21-22 the Lord states that the days of the final and greatest period of “great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) will be shortened FOR THE ELECT’S sake – and in Mat.24: 29-31, He clearly states that the gathering of His elect at the time of His return will occur immediately after the great tribulation.

The tribulation experienced by the saints:


(Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27) etc, etc, etc.


The wrath of God being poured out upon the world:


Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5 (translated into English in some Bibles as "vengeance"); Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15; Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.

The only two New Testament verses where the Greek word thlipsis ("tribulation") is in the context of what is to be experienced by the world are the following two verses:


1. “Tribulation (thlipsis)and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Rom.2: 9).
2. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2Thes.1: 6-7).


Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".


The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.



It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period"


ananias

LookingUp
Sep 28th 2008, 06:26 PM
This subject came up and began to be debated in the "Foxes Book of Martyrs thread" and the person who started that thread respectfully asked that we debate the issue in a separate thread.

1 Tribulation

"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33)


"... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act 14:22)

2 Wrath

"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9)

"He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.
(Joh 3:36)

The New Testament does not refer to the period during whichGod's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" or "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation"But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.


Check it out for yourselves:


Greek: "megas thlipsis" (great tribulation):

In Rev.2: 22, the Lord Jesus warns THE CHRISTIANS at Thyatira that unless they repent of following the doctrines of the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself will throw them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works (Rev.2: 18-23).

Rev.7: 14 identifies the multitude of saints who had come out from “the great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Mat.24: 21-22 the Lord states that the days of the final and greatest period of “great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) will be shortened FOR THE ELECT’S sake – and in Mat.24: 29-31, He clearly states that the gathering of His elect at the time of His return will occur immediately after the great tribulation.This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.


The tribulation experienced by the saints
:


(Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27) etc, etc, etc.


The wrath of God being poured out upon the world:


Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5 (translated into English in some Bibles as "vengeance"); Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15;Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.

The only two New Testament verses where the Greek word thlipsis ("tribulation") is in the context of what is to be experienced by the world are the following two verses:
1. “Tribulation (thlipsis)and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Rom.2: 9).
2. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2Thes.1: 6-7).


Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".


The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is an invention of a certain sector of the Christian church. There is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?


It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period" - fullstop.What does “fullstop” mean?

ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 06:50 PM
But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.

This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.

What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?

What does “fullstop” mean?

I dunno, looking up. I'll take the word "fullstop" out, which is supposed to mean that although the wrath will God will be poured out upon the world (just as it is written that His wrath will be poured out upon the world), the New Testament doesn't refer to this period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the seven year tribulation". I guess "fullstop" might sound like debate about that statement is closed, so I'll go take the word out right now.

Many Christians here will argue that Danilel's 70th week was already fulfilled at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus, and that Jesus was crucified in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. I think they're right - but I also think that time moves in cycles, history moves in time and prophecy is linked to history.

God bless,

ananias

ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 06:58 PM
But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.

This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.

What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?

What does “fullstop” mean?

I agree with you that Mat.24: 21-22 and Rev.7: 14 refer to a specific period of tribulation - namely, the coming period of great tribulation of the saints at the end of this age immediately before the return of Christ and the wrath of God begins to be poured out upon the world.

Yes, it's true there was a period of great tribulation at the beginning of the church age and for the first over 200 years of the church age and at many other times - such as the time of the Reformation. But time moves in cycles and history moves in time and prophecy moves with history.

"immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mat 24:29-31)

IMO to read the above verses in any other way except as referring to the end of this age and the tribulation of the saints, is wishful thinking.

BUT everyone is welcome to disagree - because what will be will be, regardless of my opinion, interpretation or understanding or of anyone else's opnion, interpretation or understanding.

ananias

third hero
Sep 28th 2008, 07:51 PM
Honestly, in my opinion, the connecting of the Great Tribulation and the Seventieth week in Daniel is overrated. Here's why I say this.

1. Daniel 9:24-27 was concerning Israel, and the great city Jerusalem. The seventty decreed weeks were determined not for all mankind, but for Israel. Yes, there are connections, like the fact that the middle of the seventieth can be confirmed as the beginning of the Great Tribulation, but other than that, the goals of the seventy weeks are outlined in verse 24.

2. Israel, when the covenant is broken in the middle of the seventieth wek, will have 1260 days to repent of their forefather's sins, and accept the grace and peace that comes with the acknowledgement that He, Lord Jesus, is their Savior and Lord. After the abomination that causes desolation, Israel will temporarily be removed from the world scene, and the embodiment of Israel, or as Revelation 12:17 says, the children of Israel will take center stage, and the Evil one and His representatives will attempt to wipe us out.

3. While Israel will be in hiding in the wilderness, the Lord will finish his work with Israel, fulfilling with the remnant the promises that He gave Daniel in verse 24, preparing them for the Return of our Glorious Lord and Savior.

My point? The seventieth week has very little to do with our plight. It is only a point in which we can say, the Great Tribulation is possibly represented there.

It is my opinion that the misuse of the seventieth week is what led to the whole "tribulation versus wrath" thing in the first place, because dispensationalists have determined that the seventieth week is the week of tribulation, which no where in the Bible is that even mentioned. The seventieth week was not determined for the church, for Lord Jesus never mentioned anything about there being a week of years of suffering. Besides, the first portion of the seventieth week is suppose to be a week of peace, as the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem makes a deal with Israel and many peoples. The first half of that week is suppose to be peaceful, many nations honoring the covenant that the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem enacted. This is not a period of tribulation.

Jesus said that when you see the abomination that causes desolation, as spoken by Daniel the prophet, then, and only then, can we say that any sort of "tribulation" is upon us. This is the only connection between us, the saints, and the "seventieth week", which deals primarily with Israel.

Ananias, when people mention the seventieth week, they are referring to Daniel 9:24-27. That s where you can see what I am talking about. It is also the place where you can begin your research into the seventieth week topic. I hope this helps you a little.

quiet dove
Sep 28th 2008, 08:05 PM
The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is an invention of a certain sector of the Christian church. There is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.
ananias


Just a reminder here folks, there is a huge difference in believing scripture teaches a certain thing with a passage and "invention".

Everyone - - remember to give others views/understandings the same respect you would like your own views/understandings to have.

ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 08:22 PM
Just a reminder here folks, there is a huge difference in believing scripture teaches a certain thing with a passage and "invention".

Everyone - - remember to give others views/understandings the same respect you would like your own views/understandings to have.

true. will correct it

ananias

ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 08:46 PM
Honestly, in my opinion, the connecting of the Great Tribulation and the Seventieth week in Daniel is overrated. Here's why I say this.

It is my opinion that the misuse of the seventieth week is what led to the whole "tribulation versus wrath" thing in the first place, because dispensationalists have determined that the seventieth week is the week of tribulation, which no where in the Bible is that even mentioned. The seventieth week was not determined for the church, for Lord Jesus never mentioned anything about there being a week of years of suffering. Besides, the first portion of the seventieth week is suppose to be a week of peace, as the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem makes a deal with Israel and many peoples. The first half of that week is suppose to be peaceful, many nations honoring the covenant that the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem enacted. This is not a period of tribulation.

Jesus said that when you see the abomination that causes desolation, as spoken by Daniel the prophet, then, and only then, can we say that any sort of "tribulation" is upon us. This is the only connection between us, the saints, and the "seventieth week", which deals primarily with Israel.

Ananias, when people mention the seventieth week, they are referring to Daniel 9:24-27. That s where you can see what I am talking about. It is also the place where you can begin your research into the seventieth week topic. I hope this helps you a little.

Thanks, third hero. I am familiar with the passage. I've just never made up my mind about Dan.9: 27 - the 7th week. I have an idea (I could be wrong) that it's one of those prophecies that gets to be fulfilled around the time of both the first and second coming of the Messiah.

I agree 100% with the parts of your statement above that I changed to bold/underlined, and to red letters. As to a covenant being made with Israel near the time of the Lord's return, I've never been able to make up my mind either way - I've mused, "I guess the fulfillment of Dan.9: 27 is one of those prophecies that will only be able to be accurately assessed with hindsight after the end of this age"

"The abomination of desolation" standing in "the holy place" could just as well refer to a "great" Christian miracle-working leader setting himself up in the church - there's a distinction made in the Greek N.T between "naos" (the holy place) and "hieron" (the temple building in Jerusalem and its outer courts).

Naos is used only in reference to (a) the holy place of the Jerusalem temple, and (b) the body of Christ, and ( c ) our bodies as well as the church as the "nass" - the body of Christ.

But the last time "naos" is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is at the time of the crucifixion of the Lord. After that, "naos" is only used in reference to our bodies and the church as the naos (temple) of God, and "hieron" is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem.

"... who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple ("naos") of God, setting himself forth, that he is God." (2Th 2:4).

This doesn't necessarily preclude the antichrist also building himself a physical temple in Jerusalem.

Therefore I've decided to wait and see what "the holy place" is referring to in the words "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)..." (Mat 24:15)

ananias

RevLogos
Sep 28th 2008, 08:58 PM
The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.



Good summary.

The idea that God takes the church, and then tortures people in a 7 year tribulation is not well supported. It came about in the early 1900’s with the dispensational hypothesis. This takes Daniel’s 70 consecutive weeks, and inserts an undetermined period of time – more than 2000 years – before the last week (the 7 year tribulation). It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the Messiah would bring a new covenant. It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the sacrifices and offerings in the temple would cease with Jesus.

Let me illustrate. The link below contains links to many Bible commentaries written over hundreds of years. Many of these include the Old Testament. Look at each of these: Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, etc. and they all conclude Daniel 9:27 already occurred. It is not until 1917 with the Scofield Reference Notes, that we see the prophecy turned upside down and suddenly Daniel 9:27 is about future events. Scofield was heavily influenced by Darby and the Dispensational hypothesis.

http://www.studylight.org/com/

Daniel's 70 weeks is a powerful and beautiful example of prophesy, literally ripped apart by the dispensationalists. It fits so perfectly as 70 consecutive weeks of years that there is no need for this extraordinary interpretation.

ananias
Sep 28th 2008, 09:56 PM
Good summary.

The idea that God takes the church, and then tortures people in a 7 year tribulation is not well supported. It came about in the early 1900’s with the dispensational hypothesis. This takes Daniel’s 70 consecutive weeks, and inserts an undetermined period of time – more than 2000 years – before the last week (the 7 year tribulation). It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the Messiah would bring a new covenant. It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the sacrifices and offerings in the temple would cease with Jesus.

Let me illustrate. The link below contains links to many Bible commentaries written over hundreds of years. Many of these include the Old Testament. Look at each of these: Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, etc. and they all conclude Daniel 9:27 already occurred. It is not until 1917 with the Scofield Reference Notes, that we see the prophecy turned upside down and suddenly Daniel 9:27 is about future events. Scofield was heavily influenced by Darby and the Dispensational hypothesis.

http://www.studylight.org/com/

Daniel's 70 weeks is a powerful and beautiful example of prophesy, literally ripped apart by the dispensationalists. It fits so perfectly as 70 consecutive weeks of years that there is no need for this extraordinary interpretation.

True. But I also think that we mustn't overlook the following verses which all speak of three and a half years:

"... And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months." (Rev 13:5)

"... And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11:3)

"... And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12:6-7)

All we need is to link (whether correctly or incorrectly) the above verses with 2Thes.2: 4, Mat.24: 15 and Dan.9: 27, and we wind up with the "seven-year tribulation" theory - except that the New Testament doesn't call the wrath of God "tribulation"!

That's why I said that it's quite possible that time moves in cycles, history takes place in time, and prophecy is linked to history.

At least some prophecies have more than one fulfillment in time. I firmly believe that, even though I know that many would disagree with me and think it's a load of nonsense but respectfully have not said so.

I think that Dan.9: 27 is a prophecy whose fulfillment/s we will only be able to fathom with full assurance after the end of this age.

ananias

RevLogos
Sep 28th 2008, 11:09 PM
True. But I also think that we mustn't overlook the following verses which all speak of three and a half years:

Yes indeed, and that is how to approach it. You bring up 4 periods of 3.5 years each - 14 years. What is not clear to me though is what of these durations may overlap each other.

I also don't think there will be a clear event that marks the start of the tribulations. Not everyone will feel the tribulations at the same time. It's not as if there is no tribulation, and then instantly there is tribulation. It expands across the globe over time. Even now there are Christians who no doubt could see themselves in these times - where they cannot live safely, cannot buy, sell, get jobs, etc.

The other thing to consider is that not all events in Revelation represent God's wrath. Many people see God's wrath beginning at the 7th seal. Events prior to this, such as the arrival of the two beasts, the decision to accept or not, the mark of the beast - as happening prior to God's wrath.

My personal view is the build-up to God's wrath has begun, and things keep getting worse for some indeterminate period of time. Like birth pains, these events will become stronger and more frequent. Then we will begin to clearly see the events of Revelation, the humble moderators will lift their restrictions on naming the AC and setting dates :D, and shortly thereafter, His Wrath will begin. I suspect the Wrath part will be much less than 7 years.

I don't think anyone could put together a detailed timeline of exactly what happens. We are given enough to know it when we see it but not enough to predict and set dates. We've been given enough to watch, prepare, and recognize false teachings, while we do the important stuff God wants: to live our lives as ambassadors to Christ.

yoSAMite
Sep 29th 2008, 02:58 AM
The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.

It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period"
I'd like to say technically you are correct about the term tribulation. But I think where you may not be correct is that the term is an idiomatic expression or colloquialism that has been adopted and accepted as a term for Daniel's 70th week. With that being said when someone mentions "the tribulation" most people know exactly what is being spoken of.

markedward
Sep 29th 2008, 03:12 AM
Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".
Luke 21 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Matthew 24 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel accounts of the same prophecies. Whereas Luke 21 calls the time period of the attack on Judea a "great distress" and "wrath", Matthew 24 calls the time period "great tribulation."

third hero
Sep 29th 2008, 05:55 AM
Luke 21 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Matthew 24 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel accounts of the same prophecies. Whereas Luke 21 calls the time period of the attack on Judea a "great distress" and "wrath", Matthew 24 calls the time period "great tribulation."

So according to you, these two statements are the same:

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? Luke 21:7

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? -Matthew 24:3

I mean, the Lord said the same thing in both accounts right?

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. -Matthew 24:1-2

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. -Luke 21:5-6

Jesus, in both accounts, state that the temple is going to be destroyed. Now look again at Luke 21:7.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?

What are the "these things in which the people are asking Lord Jesus about? Is it not the destruction of the temple? According to Luke, they never even mention anything concerning the "end of the age", and yet, Luke wrote in some of the early signs of the end of the age while explaining the means in which the temple will be destroyed. There are several things that were not mentioned.

1. The abomination that causes desolation
2. Great Distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world and never to be equalled again


In other words, the end of the age was NOT the topic of Luke 21. Matthew makes no bones as to what the topic of his version would be, and that would be the End Times signs, hence his addition of the phrase, "and the end of the age". Ask any English composition teacher what the topic of Luke 21 is and you get the same thing as what I am saying. The wording of these passages makes all the difference in the world.

For those wanting to show congruency of the Gospels by saying that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are synonymous are not english professors. By the wording of each version, we see that Luke was writing about the signs surrounding the destruction of the temple while Matthew went straight for the end times signs.

Seriously, you do not find wordings in Matthew's version that you find in Luke's version. Phrases like "but before all these" are not found in Matthew's version. Luke talks about he desolation of Jerusalem, and not the abomination that causes desolation. Also, the Daniel reference is not in the Luke version because the people that told Luke of the Olivet discourse were more worried about their religious city than they were on the end times. To them, the destruction of Jerusalem was the "end of the world".

Is it rather funny that in Luke's version, Jerusalem is taken by Gentiles AFTER it's desolation happens? In Matthew's version, Jesus returns "immediately after the distress of those days" whereas Luke's version has a period of time where their religious capital would be "trampled" on by the Gentiles until another age is complete. According to Luke's version, something called the "Age of the Gentiles" had to be fulfilled before Christ would return, which is after the desolation of Jerusalem. we can clearly see that through history, the age of the Gentiles lasted a really long time, about 1900 years.

I mean, if you want ot continue to say that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are talking about the same events, then go right on ahead. However, several grammar changes and detail changes have to take place in order to make that statement a true one.

LookingUp
Sep 29th 2008, 07:14 AM
Hey all,


I’m not saying that the Church (Body of Christ) will not experience tribulation. That much we can see to be very true. But it seems clear that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Mat. 24:21 refers to Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30). Although Jer. doesn’t tell us this lasts 7 years, we know there are 7 years left for Daniel’s people according to Dan. 9. Reading Jer. 30 tells us the purpose of this period of time. One purpose is to chasten Israel (vs. 11) in order to purify her to receive her coming King, and the other purpose is to destroy the nations who reject her and her coming King (vs. 11). The Lord destroys these nations in His wrath. The Church is neither Israel who needs purging nor the nations who require destruction through His wrath. The Church is already sanctified, cleansed (Eph. 5:26), holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4; 5:27; Jude 1:24; Col. 1:22).


Whether we call the 1st half of the 70th week, tribulation, and the 2nd half, great tribulation, the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, which means the Body of Christ will not be here for it. We can’t say that general tribulation is equal to the wrath of God, but surely we can say that the wrath of God will be a time of tribulation, great tribulation, or great distress.


I realize some believe that the wrath of God does not begin until the 6th seal, but I’m not convinced of that. Just because the word “wrath” is not used until the 6th seal doesn’t mean the others are not wrath. All the seal judgments originate in heaven. These seal judgments cannot even take place until Christ alone breaks the seals. Each broken seal is judgment directly from Jesus in heaven. And I can’t help but take note that the Lord STANDS up to go to the Father who is still sitting on His throne. Into whose hands does the Father hand judgment over? The Lord stands to judge and the Lord stands to plead (Isa. 3:13). Which is He about to when He stands to take the scroll? Is He about to judge as He breaks the 1st seal or is He about to allow general tribulation continue on the earth?


These judgments are by the hand of God… death by sword, famine, wild animals, pestilence, plague. Look at the judgments of God in Ez. 14:21…


"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"


The Lord God chose to call sword, famine, wild beasts and plague “My four dreadful judgments”. That's not tribulation; that is wrath.

In the book of Rev., I also can’t help but notice that there is such a focus on the Jews and Jerusalem again because God has got unfinished business there. The 144,000 Jews mentioned are even called the 'first fruits' in Rev 14:4 which makes sense to me if this is not the church age. Otherwise, if the church goes through this specific tribulation, why would they be called 'first fruits' unto the lamb? Daniel’s 70th week is the last 7 years in which God deals directly with the nation of Israel (like the first 69) in order to bring that nation to Himself. It is also the time He judges the God-rejecting nations.

jeffweeder
Sep 29th 2008, 07:33 AM
Luke wrote in some of the early signs of the end of the age while explaining the means in which the temple will be destroyed. There are several things that were not mentioned.

1. The abomination that causes desolation
2. Great Distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world and never to be equalled again


In other words, the end of the age was NOT the topic of Luke 21.


Then why does luke go ahead and tell you of the end of the age anyway?
They start the same way and end the same way, because its the same discourse that the lord made.


You say that the AOD is not mentioned and the great distress.....

Compare the texts and they certainly look the same ...to me anyway, as shown with the colours.

MATT

Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

LUKE

]"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognise that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains[/COLOR], and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

:2cents:

jeffweeder
Sep 29th 2008, 07:44 AM
also if Jesus comes immediately after the trib of those days...but before the wrath, then how do you explain these verses;

REV 16
The sixth angel poured out his bowl (of wrath) on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.



REV 11
Then the seventh angel sounded (trumpet); and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Roelof
Sep 29th 2008, 10:22 AM
Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".


The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing.

Ananias

You say that the "wrath of God" will be AFTER the last part of the Tribulation?

I agree that the Final Tribulation might be shorter or longer than 7 years. I reckon it will be "conditioned based" and our Father will decide on the length of it.

markedward
Sep 29th 2008, 01:43 PM
What are the "these things in which the people are asking Lord Jesus about? Is it not the destruction of the temple? According to Luke, they never even mention anything concerning the "end of the age", and yet, Luke wrote in some of the early signs of the end of the age while explaining the means in which the temple will be destroyed. There are several things that were not mentioned.
...

In other words, the end of the age was NOT the topic of Luke 21.Then logically, you must necessarily conclude that Mark 13 isn't about the end of the age either, since it doesn't mention it in the opening questions just as Luke 21 doesn't.

Mark 13:4 "Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?"

RevLogos
Sep 29th 2008, 02:15 PM
In other words, the end of the age was NOT the topic of Luke 21. Matthew makes no bones as to what the topic of his version would be, and that would be the End Times signs, hence his addition of the phrase, "and the end of the age". Ask any English composition teacher what the topic of Luke 21 is and you get the same thing as what I am saying. The wording of these passages makes all the difference in the world.

It is true that in Luke's account, the initial question driving the discourse did not include a question about Jesus' return. This is true with Mark's account as well (in 13).

However, Luke, Matthew and Mark are talking about the same discourse. Both began at the exact same point in time, and both began after Jesus said that the temple would be torn down. To conclude that Luke's version has nothing about end-times, but Matthew does, requires that they both be speaking about two different discourses.

If we read Luke 21:25-28, it is apparent that Jesus is speaking of end-times. This section reads almost identically with Mat 24:29-31.

What I think happened is this:

We have the benefit of hindsight; we know about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Diaspora in AD 70. The disciples did not. The disciples asked about these things, and about Jesus' return. Jesus answered both questions, about the destruction of Jerusalem, and His return. But when writing it they convoluted both topics. They did not realize that the destruction of Jerusalem, and Jesus’ return, were separate events.

Most of the Olivet Discourse, in all three versions, is about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation — spoken about by Daniel the prophet — standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

The Abomination of Desolation is the Roman army of Titus, standing in the Holy Place, burning it down. This is spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

Mat 24:29-31 is about Jesus’ return. But it was interspersed with more text about the destruction of Jerusalem in 32-35 where Jesus says it will happen in this generation – which it did. Mat 24:29-31 corresponds to Luk 21:25-28.

ananias
Sep 29th 2008, 03:49 PM
I'd like to say technically you are correct about the term tribulation. But I think where you may not be correct is that the term is an idiomatic expression or colloquialism that has been adopted and accepted as a term for Daniel's 70th week. With that being said when someone mentions "the tribulation" most people know exactly what is being spoken of.

That's true. But the reason I make a hooh-haah about the technicality is because the saints will not be here during the period God's wrath is poured out upon the world. So if the period of God's wrath = "the tribulation period", then it stands to reason that there will be a "pre-tribulation" rapture. But IMO the great tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Mat.24: 21-22 and Rev.7: 14 refers to the tribulation of the saints.

ananias

ananias
Sep 29th 2008, 04:11 PM
My personal view is the build-up to God's wrath has begun, and things keep getting worse for some indeterminate period of time. Like birth pains, these events will become stronger and more frequent. Then we will begin to clearly see the events of Revelation, the humble moderators will lift their restrictions on naming the AC and setting dates :D, and shortly thereafter, His Wrath will begin. I suspect the Wrath part will be much less than 7 years.

I don't think anyone could put together a detailed timeline of exactly what happens. We are given enough to know it when we see it but not enough to predict and set dates. We've been given enough to watch, prepare, and recognize false teachings, while we do the important stuff God wants: to live our lives as ambassadors to Christ.

I'll second that. But I do personally believe that there are patterns which teach us things. For example, Jericho was only judged by God on the seventh of seven days at the hand of the Israelites (Joshua chapter six).

The flood only began to be poured out on the seventh of seven days after Noah had entered the ark (Genesis 7: 1, 4, 10).

The sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwiched between the verses describing the resurrection and removal of the "two witnesses" of Jesus (Rev.11: 7-14) on one hand, and (on the other hand) the wrath/judgment of God coming upon the world (verses 16-19).

Noah and the redeemed family were "lifted out" of the world while the flood was being poured out, and "the two witnesses" are "lifted out" before the judgment comes.

Jericho was judged on the seventh day, the seventh time the Israelites had marched around the city that day, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

In the Revelation, Jesus judges the seventh "head" of the seven-headed "beast" at the time of the opening of the seventh seal?? (not sure), the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the pouring out of the seventh bowl of wrath? (not sure)

God's judgment comes upon the world in the seventh division(and chapter) of Genesis.

The patterns go on and on: http://completeword.blogspot.com/

So my thinking is (and I could be wrong), given the patterns, wouldn't the resurrection/removal of the saints from the world, and the wrath of God occur in the seventh of the final seven years of the age? And will the beast reign unhindered for the final three and a half years, as we are told in Rev.13: 6-10?

ananias

ananias
Sep 29th 2008, 04:30 PM
:2cents:

Jeff, the parallel text of the Matthew quote you made is found in Luke chapter 17 - not Luke chapter 21. Check out the parts of Mat.24 and Luk.17 highlighted in red:

MATTHEW 24:

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short...
... Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (Mat 24:23-28)

LUKE 17:

"And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them: for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and let him that is in the field likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I say unto you, In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body is, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.
(Luk 17:23-37)

Now compare the above again with Luke 21:

LUKE 21


]"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognise that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains[/COLOR], and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

ananias

ananias
Sep 29th 2008, 04:38 PM
Hey all,


I’m not saying that the Church (Body of Christ) will not experience tribulation. That much we can see to be very true. But it seems clear that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Mat. 24:21 refers to Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30). Although Jer. doesn’t tell us this lasts 7 years, we know there are 7 years left for Daniel’s people according to Dan. 9. Reading Jer. 30 tells us the purpose of this period of time. One purpose is to chasten Israel (vs. 11) in order to purify her to receive her coming King, and the other purpose is to destroy the nations who reject her and her coming King (vs. 11). The Lord destroys these nations in His wrath. The Church is neither Israel who needs purging nor the nations who require destruction through His wrath. The Church is already sanctified, cleansed (Eph. 5:26), holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4; 5:27; Jude 1:24; Col. 1:22).


Whether we call the 1st half of the 70th week, tribulation, and the 2nd half, great tribulation, the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, which means the Body of Christ will not be here for it. We can’t say that general tribulation is equal to the wrath of God, but surely we can say that the wrath of God will be a time of tribulation, great tribulation, or great distress.


I realize some believe that the wrath of God does not begin until the 6th seal, but I’m not convinced of that. Just because the word “wrath” is not used until the 6th seal doesn’t mean the others are not wrath. All the seal judgments originate in heaven. These seal judgments cannot even take place until Christ alone breaks the seals. Each broken seal is judgment directly from Jesus in heaven. And I can’t help but take note that the Lord STANDS up to go to the Father who is still sitting on His throne. Into whose hands does the Father hand judgment over? The Lord stands to judge and the Lord stands to plead (Isa. 3:13). Which is He about to when He stands to take the scroll? Is He about to judge as He breaks the 1st seal or is He about to allow general tribulation continue on the earth?


These judgments are by the hand of God… death by sword, famine, wild animals, pestilence, plague. Look at the judgments of God in Ez. 14:21…


"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"


The Lord God chose to call sword, famine, wild beasts and plague “My four dreadful judgments”. That's not tribulation; that is wrath.

In the book of Rev., I also can’t help but notice that there is such a focus on the Jews and Jerusalem again because God has got unfinished business there. The 144,000 Jews mentioned are even called the 'first fruits' in Rev 14:4 which makes sense to me if this is not the church age. Otherwise, if the church goes through this specific tribulation, why would they be called 'first fruits' unto the lamb? Daniel’s 70th week is the last 7 years in which God deals directly with the nation of Israel (like the first 69) in order to bring that nation to Himself. It is also the time He judges the God-rejecting nations.

Let's hope you're right. I have an idea that it's not going to be even another 20 years before we will all be looking back discussing our debates about all this stuff. Maybe we will be debating who said what! :)

ananias

third hero
Sep 29th 2008, 09:09 PM
Then logically, you must necessarily conclude that Mark 13 isn't about the end of the age either, since it doesn't mention it in the opening questions just as Luke 21 doesn't.

Mark 13:4 "Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?"

I would say that, except it appears that Lord Jesus talked about a lot more than just the signs of the destruction of the Temple. Mark's version has elements of both Luke and Matthew's version, with more evidence leaning towards what Matthew had written down than what Luke wrote.

like I have written in another thread, I will again write here. The Olivet discourse dealt with both the signs of the destruction of the Temple, like what Luke written down, and the signs of the end of the age, like what Matthew wrote down. Why do I say all of this? Simple. Mark's version was written first. Luke's was written second and Matthew's was written last. Mark is the version that tried in include both the signs of the destruction of the temple...

But take heed to yourselves: -Mark 13:9
And the gospel must first be published among all nations. -verse 10
(Notice that this little detail was omitted from Luke's version but is definitely in Matthew's version.)

...and the signs of the end times...

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, -Mark 13:14
But in those days, after that tribulation, -verse 24
(Again, notice that these little details are not in Luke's version, but are in Matthew's).

...so that we, the reader, understand the outline of what Lord Jesus had said there during the Olivet discourse. Luke, seeing that not all of the signs that the Lord said concerning the destruction of the Temple were present in Peter's ... errr Mark's Gospel, decided to write to his friend, Theophilus, describing to him what he had learned, from the people who observed it. His version included more signs that dealt with Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple and the aftermath....

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. -Luke 21:24
(Notice that this is the only place where this statement is written, and yet, as we have witnessed for the last 2000 years, that statement was the one that proved that Luke's version was at the very least, part of what the Lord stated during the Olivet discourse, because it happened, and some say that the Gentiles still posess Jerusalem to this day.)

...things that were not present in Mark's Gospel. But in reading that, one would conclude that if Luke's version of the Olivet discourse was the only surviving Gospel, then basically all of the signs that preceded the Lord's return would have already happened, except for the sign of the Lord's coming, (darkness in the sky with the only light being Him coming from the clouds). Matthew recognized that Luke omitted a great deal of information concerning thet Olivet discourse, and thus wrote his version, which almost mirrors Mark's version except for the omission of the signs that preceded the destruction of the Temple. Things that Matthew included that was not a part of either gospel included the parable of the ten virgins, and the Lord judging of the nations, (chapter 25).

Does this mean that all of the three accounts are incorrect? No. It means that the three authors had differing views on what should have been included in their Gospel, and thus wrote accordingly. this did not make them wrong. Quite the contrary, it made the entire account of the Olivet discourse even more significant, because all three versions show that Jesus prophesied about both their era, and the one that precedes His return. To me, this just bolsters my belief that Lord Jesus is the Son of God, because unlike any of the other prophets that went out before Him, He not only made the OT prophets' messages very clear and chronological, but He accurately detailed the last 2000 years, in chronological order, something that no prophet could do, only God.

ananias
Sep 30th 2008, 11:16 AM
I would say that, except it appears that Lord Jesus talked about a lot more than just the signs of the destruction of the Temple. Mark's version has elements of both Luke and Matthew's version, with more evidence leaning towards what Matthew had written down than what Luke wrote.

like I have written in another thread, I will again write here. The Olivet discourse dealt with both the signs of the destruction of the Temple, like what Luke written down, and the signs of the end of the age, like what Matthew wrote down. Why do I say all of this? Simple. Mark's version was written first. Luke's was written second and Matthew's was written last. Mark is the version that tried in include both the signs of the destruction of the temple...

But take heed to yourselves: -Mark 13:9
And the gospel must first be published among all nations. -verse 10
(Notice that this little detail was omitted from Luke's version but is definitely in Matthew's version.)

...and the signs of the end times...

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, -Mark 13:14
But in those days, after that tribulation, -verse 24
(Again, notice that these little details are not in Luke's version, but are in Matthew's).

...so that we, the reader, understand the outline of what Lord Jesus had said there during the Olivet discourse. Luke, seeing that not all of the signs that the Lord said concerning the destruction of the Temple were present in Peter's ... errr Mark's Gospel, decided to write to his friend, Theophilus, describing to him what he had learned, from the people who observed it. His version included more signs that dealt with Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple and the aftermath....

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. -Luke 21:24
(Notice that this is the only place where this statement is written, and yet, as we have witnessed for the last 2000 years, that statement was the one that proved that Luke's version was at the very least, part of what the Lord stated during the Olivet discourse, because it happened, and some say that the Gentiles still posess Jerusalem to this day.)

...things that were not present in Mark's Gospel. But in reading that, one would conclude that if Luke's version of the Olivet discourse was the only surviving Gospel, then basically all of the signs that preceded the Lord's return would have already happened, except for the sign of the Lord's coming, (darkness in the sky with the only light being Him coming from the clouds). Matthew recognized that Luke omitted a great deal of information concerning thet Olivet discourse, and thus wrote his version, which almost mirrors Mark's version except for the omission of the signs that preceded the destruction of the Temple. Things that Matthew included that was not a part of either gospel included the parable of the ten virgins, and the Lord judging of the nations, (chapter 25).

Does this mean that all of the three accounts are incorrect? No. It means that the three authors had differing views on what should have been included in their Gospel, and thus wrote accordingly. this did not make them wrong. Quite the contrary, it made the entire account of the Olivet discourse even more significant, because all three versions show that Jesus prophesied about both their era, and the one that precedes His return. To me, this just bolsters my belief that Lord Jesus is the Son of God, because unlike any of the other prophets that went out before Him, He not only made the OT prophets' messages very clear and chronological, but He accurately detailed the last 2000 years, in chronological order, something that no prophet could do, only God.

Well, said, third hero!

Gods Child
Sep 30th 2008, 01:46 PM
I’m not saying that the Church (Body of Christ) will not experience tribulation. That much we can see to be very true. But it seems clear that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Mat. 24:21 refers to Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30). Although Jer. doesn’t tell us this lasts 7 years, we know there are 7 years left for Daniel’s people according to Dan. 9. Reading Jer. 30 tells us the purpose of this period of time. One purpose is to chasten Israel (vs. 11) in order to purify her to receive her coming King, and the other purpose is to destroy the nations who reject her and her coming King (vs. 11). The Lord destroys these nations in His wrath. The Church is neither Israel who needs purging nor the nations who require destruction through His wrath. The Church is already sanctified, cleansed (Eph. 5:26), holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4; 5:27; Jude 1:24; Col. 1:22).


Whether we call the 1st half of the 70th week, tribulation, and the 2nd half, great tribulation, the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, which means the Body of Christ will not be here for it. We can’t say that general tribulation is equal to the wrath of God, but surely we can say that the wrath of God will be a time of tribulation, great tribulation, or great distress.

Aren't there Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:9, 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:11, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

The 70th week is in Daniel 9. If we continue to the last chapter of the book, we are told who is included in this 70th week. We are told that “at this time” (at the end of the 70th week) those who sleep in the dust and those written in the book (book of life) will awake to everlasting life. They shall shine for ever and ever.
The fact that Christians are mentioned throughout the book of Revelation and after the 70th week those that are written in the book of life and those that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life, shows me that the Church is still here during the 70th week.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



The Lord God chose to call sword, famine, wild beasts and plague “My four dreadful judgments”. That's not tribulation; that is wrath.

In the book of Rev., I also can’t help but notice that there is such a focus on the Jews and Jerusalem again because God has got unfinished business there. The 144,000 Jews mentioned are even called the 'first fruits' in Rev 14:4 which makes sense to me if this is not the church age. Otherwise, if the church goes through this specific tribulation, why would they be called 'first fruits' unto the lamb? Daniel’s 70th week is the last 7 years in which God deals directly with the nation of Israel (like the first 69) in order to bring that nation to Himself. It is also the time He judges the God-rejecting nations.


Continue to read Rev 14, in which we see this is when Jesus comes in the clouds to gather his from the earth. Rev 14 is the 7th (last trump=1 Cor 15:52) trumpet. The last trump is just prior to the vials being poured out, which is called the Wrath of God.

At the 7th trumpet (Rev 11) God judges the nations and this is the time that reward is given to the Saints and the wrath of God will be poured out in the vials.

Rev11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

In Rev 14 just prior to the time we see Jesus come in the clouds and gather his own, we are told of the firstfruits. The firstfuits is also the Church.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Cor 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Gods Child
Sep 30th 2008, 01:48 PM
Many people have the tribulation/great tribulation confused with God’s wrath.

Tribulation means to be persecuted. Persecuted by who…God?
No, God does not persecute his Children. People are persecuted by the ungodly, thus the tribulation is caused by the ungodly. Tribulation (persecution) is the suffering of Christians at the hands of the ungodly.

Where in the bible when God has wrath, does God ever conflict tribulation on his Children?


The great tribulation is Satan’s wrath against Gods Children. This is why it is called tribulation.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Two different wraths – Satan’s wrath which causes the Great tribulation and then God’s wrath against the ungodly.

Satan & the ungodly have wrath against God’s Children, which causes tribulation for the Saints.

God has wrath against Satan & the ungodly.

LookingUp
Sep 30th 2008, 03:05 PM
Aren't there Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:9, 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:11, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?Yes, I would say all believers are part of the Church of God. But I would not say all believers are part of the Body of Christ (One New Man) which had its birth in the 1st Century and will have a filling up point and be complete just before the rapture.

We see that during the Mill. Kingdom (verses below) that Gentiles are not part of the Body of Christ (One New Man). It is fairly clear that the “all” Israel saved at His 2nd coming are also not part of the Body of Christ (it will have been taken up by then, even by post-trib standards).


The 70th week is in Daniel 9. If we continue to the last chapter of the book, we are told who is included in this 70th week. We are told that “at this time” (at the end of the 70th week) those who sleep in the dust and those written in the book (book of life) will awake to everlasting life. They shall shine for ever and ever.

The fact that Christians are mentioned throughout the book of Revelation and after the 70th week those that are written in the book of life and those that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life, shows me that the Church is still here during the 70th week.Daniel is very clear as to who “shall be delivered”… it is Daniel’s people (vs. 1). In vs. 2, it is written that “many” (of Daniel’s people) will awake to everlasting life”. Vs. 3 speaks of their brightness. The OT prophecies promise that Israel will shine with His glory and Gentiles will come to her light…

Isa. 60:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa.+60%3A1)
Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+60%3A2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+60%3A3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.


Isa 61:9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+61%3A9) And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they [are] the seed [which] the LORD hath blessed


1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Paul tells us that all those “who have DIED in Christ” (vs. 14) will be resurrected and we (who are in Christ) who remain will be caught up with them. Before Christ shed His blood, no one “died while in Christ”.

LookingUp
Sep 30th 2008, 04:39 PM
Many people have the tribulation/great tribulation confused with God’s wrath.


Tribulation means to be persecuted. Persecuted by who…God?
No, God does not persecute his Children. People are persecuted by the ungodly, thus the tribulation is caused by the ungodly. Tribulation (persecution) is the suffering of Christians at the hands of the ungodly.

Where in the bible when God has wrath, does God ever conflict tribulation on his Children? When God judges and sends forth His wrath, I imagine that those experiencing it feel “great distress” or “great tribulation”.

Ez. 14:21 describes God’s judgment/wrath as “death by sword, famine, wild animals, pestilence, plague” and these judgments are sent by God…

"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"



The seals are sent by the hand of the One who breaks the seals which are also described as death by sword and famine and wild beasts and plague.

Why are these called judgments delivered by the hand of God in Ezekiel but these very same things are not called judgments delivered by the hand of God in Revelation? They are simply tribulation caused by the wrath of…. Satan? Who is it that gets to judge the earth and all of its dwellers? Satan? Satan is simply an instrument. God intends to make His people (who will rely on this false god at first) see that this one who strikes them is not to be trusted. It is the Lord alone they should trust.

The Anti-Christ will be “the rod of His anger” and “the staff in whose hand is His indignation.” After He is finished with this tool, He “will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of Anti-Christ and the pomp of his haughtiness.” “Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?”

God will use the AC and his army in the same way He used the Assyrian and Assyria in Isa. 10.

Woe to Assyria the rod of My anger and the staff in whose hand is My indignation. I sent it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder and to trample them down like mud in the streets.

As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols, whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria, shall I not do to Jerusalem and her images just as I have done to Samaria and her idols? So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.'

Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.

Now in that day the remnant of Israel and those of the house of Judah who have escaped will never again rely on the one who struck them but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the might God.

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts, 'O My people who dwell in Zion do not fear the Assyrian who strikes you with the rod and lifts up his staff against you...for in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to their destruction.

So it will be at the end of this “tribulation” (wrath of God) in the book of Rev. In a little while His indignation (in which He uses the AC) against His people will be spent and His anger will be directed to the AC’s destruction (the tool He had just used to purify them).

Gods Child
Oct 1st 2008, 03:21 AM
Yes, I would say all believers are part of the Church of God. But I would not say all believers are part of the Body of Christ (One New Man) which had its birth in the 1st Century and will have a filling up point and be complete just before the rapture.



I do not see were the bible ever says that the "filling up point" is before the tribulation. You have not proved any scripture to say that the "filling up point" is before the tribulation.


Daniel is very clear as to who “shall be delivered”… it is Daniel’s people (vs. 1). In vs. 2, it is written that “many” (of Daniel’s people) will awake to everlasting life”. Vs. 3 speaks of their brightness. The OT prophecies promise that Israel will shine with His glory and Gentiles will come to her light…

Daniel wrote the book…Right?
When Daniel Said “Thy people” shall be delivered” How can that mean Daniels people?

Thy people means God’s people shall be delivered at that time. That is clear. If Daniel meant “thy people”, to mean his people, he would have said “my people”. Daniel did not say my people, he was talking to God and said thy people meaning God’s people will be delivered.

In fact Daniel said; thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book..
If you are saying that "thy people" is Israel, then you are saying that only Israel is "written in the book, because we are told that "thy people" shall be delivered EVERY ONE that are found written in the book. Does that mean that only Israel is written in the book when it said EVERY ONE?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Paul tells us that all those “who have DIED in Christ” (vs. 14) will be resurrected and we (who are in Christ) who remain will be caught up with them. Before Christ shed His blood, no one “died while in Christ”.

Anyone who is saved this side of the cross is IN CHRIST. Jew or otherwise. What does that have to do with anything? Where does that prove a pre-trib?

I’m sorry, I do not mean to sound like I’m picking, but I do not see you gave any scriptures to prove what you believe.
Without scripture backing, I find it unbelievable as we all should.

LookingUp
Oct 1st 2008, 04:08 AM
I do not see were the bible ever says that the "filling up point" is before the tribulation. You have not proved any scripture to say that the "filling up point" is before the tribulation.A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom. 11:25). I find that there is a connection between this filling up and the completion of the Body of Christ. Some don’t. However, even post tribbers agree that the Body of Christ is caught up and the remnant of Israel on the earth is converted AFTER the Body is caught up and AFTER the Lord sets His feet upon the earth.


Daniel wrote the book…Right?

When Daniel Said “Thy people” shall be delivered” How can that mean Daniels people?

Thy people means God’s people shall be delivered at that time. That is clear. If Daniel meant “thy people”, to mean his people, he would have said “my people”. Daniel did not say my people, he was talking to God and said thy people meaning God’s people will be delivered.Daniel wrote the words of the angel who communicated the prophecy to him (Dan. 10:5-6, 11,). The angel tells Daniel that he has come to give Daniel an understanding of what will happen to his (Daniel’s) people in the latter days (vs. 14). The angel tells Daniel that, Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of his (Daniel’s) people will arise (Dan. 12:1) and that at that time his (Daniel’s) people, everyone one of them who is found in the book, will be rescued (Dan. 12:1).


In fact Daniel said;
thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book..
If you are saying that "thy people" is Israel, then you are saying that only Israel is "written in the book, because we are told that "thy people" shall be delivered EVERY ONE that are found written in the book. Does that mean that only Israel is written in the book when it said EVERY ONE?Read it again. The angel does not say that everyone in the book will be rescued. The angel tells Daniel that his people will be rescued, every one of his people that is found written in the book.


Anyone who is saved this side of the cross is IN CHRIST. Jew or otherwise. What does that have to do with anything? Where does that prove a pre-trib?I would also include all those who had faith prior to the cross (Adam & on) as those who are now in Christ. However, they did not fall asleep (die) in Christ. Paul wrote that all who “fell asleep” in Christ will be raised at the time of the rapture. This qualification excludes Daniel and all the saints who did not “fall asleep” in Christ. Their resurrection is after tribulation and before the Mill. Kingdom.



I’m sorry, I do not mean to sound like I’m picking, but I do not see you gave any scriptures to prove what you believe.
Without scripture backing, I find it unbelievable as we all should.This wasn’t scripture…



Isa. 60:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa.+60%3A1)
Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+60%3A2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+60%3A3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Isa 61:9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isa+61%3A9) And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they [are] the seed [which] the LORD hath blessed


Paul tells us that all those “who have DIED in Christ” (vs. 14) will be resurrected and we (who are in Christ) who remain will be caught up with them. Before Christ shed His blood, no one “died while in Christ”. For example, you highlighted Dan. 12:3 to show that God's people will shine as the brightness of the firmament. I showed the scripture which supports that it is Israel that shines as the brightness of the firmament. Isa also confirms the purpose of this... so the Gentiles come to her light and so Israel's seed shall be known among the Gentiles.