PDA

View Full Version : What happens to a believer when he or she dies?



divaD
Sep 28th 2008, 11:45 PM
If your answer is that he or she goes straight to heaven, can you back that with Scripture without contradicting other Scripture? If this is what you believe, is it because you have been taught to believe this, or because this is what the Bible teaches? I truly believe that if just one thing can be contradicted by another thing, then obviously one hasn't arrived at the truth. Can truth contradict itself and still be truth?

I'm mainly interested in what others think happens to a believer at death, according to Scripture, and whether or not it causes contradictions in other Scripture.

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 02:25 AM
I would have to say that upon death, a person no longer has an ability to interact with the world of the living. You may have a certain awareness but not for long. Quickly, you would be in a detached existence that has nothing to do with what we know of in this life.

I think this is as far as you can go to explain it, without going into contradictions.

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 02:45 AM
I've always understood that believers go to "Paradise", which isn't Heaven, but an intermediate state. I believed it because no other optional interpretation was ever presented. I always had to do a mental "Huh?" at some point in order to accept it. While now I don't assert that is what happens, I do question it, and Scripture seems to be pointing to the fact that we're just dead--conscious of nothing--until the resurrection. I'm not thoroughly convinced either way yet.

The two most common passages used to show that we go to an intermediate state are:

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise." Some scholars say the comma (in red) is misplaced--that if it's placed after "today", the meaning is the same as if He said, "...today I say unto thee...". Given that the interpretation of an intermediate state was arrived at well before the KJV, I think it's a distinct possibility that the comma's placement was unintentionally biased. If so, this verse does not, in fact, support an intermediate state.

2 Corintians 5:6-8 - 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. At first blush, this does seem to say that if we are absent from the body, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord. But it doesn't quite say that. It does say if we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. The last verse is where potential confusion sets in. It makes the case that we are willing to be absent from the body, for the sake of being in the presence of the Lord--that, of the two, the latter is preferrable. It does not unequivocally mean that being absent from the body is equivalent to being with the Lord--Paul is merely saying it would be preferable to be in the presence of the Lord than to remain in the body. This doesn't necessitate an intermediate state, as it doesn't specifically say that to be absent from the body IS being with the Lord. He just says being with the Lord is preferable, given the two options.

markedward
Sep 29th 2008, 03:02 AM
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Every man will go to heaven immediately upon death, but not every one will stay there: the wicked will be condemned while the righteous will be commended.

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 03:28 AM
2 Corintians 5:6-8 - 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. At first blush, this does seem to say that if we are absent from the body, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord. But it doesn't quite say that. It does say if we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. The last verse is where potential confusion sets in. It makes the case that we are willing to be absent from the body, for the sake of being in the presence of the Lord--that, of the two, the latter is preferrable. It does not unequivocally mean that being absent from the body is equivalent to being with the Lord--Paul is merely saying it would be preferable to be in the presence of the Lord than to remain in the body. This doesn't necessitate an intermediate state, as it doesn't specifically say that to be absent from the body IS being with the Lord. He just says being with the Lord is preferable, given the two options.

Goodness, I'm dizzy after reading that.

How can you reason that being with the Lord is preferrable, but yet say that being absent from the body doesn't release us to be present with the Lord? :confused Isn't that exactly what verse 6 states?

The way this portion of reads is that once our flesh is dead, when we are finally released from it, we are free to be with God in spirit.

Paul is torn though. He loves His ability to do God's work here, while in the body. Yet he longs to be with the Lord which requires dead. For him - it's a double edged sword.

A portion of this passage is factual, and a portion is Paul's personal dilemma based on the fact that once our flesh is dead we go, in spirit, to exist with Him.

And honestly, I don't much care how that all plays out. I'm with Him - there is no greater thing!

divaD
Sep 29th 2008, 03:38 AM
But what about passages like these?

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55*O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



If the believer is already in heaven upon death, then who are all these passages referring to? Why would anyone need to be resurrected and put on immortality, and be awaken from sleep within the dust of the earth, if they're already in heaven? I guess my question is, what is being awoken from the dust of the earth? The physical body? The soul?

legoman
Sep 29th 2008, 03:44 AM
Hi divaD,

Ecclesiastes 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

These verses seem to indicate we are not aware of our state when we die. The dead know nothing, there is no knowledge, etc. in the grave. Not until the resurrection that is... then we won't be in the grave anymore.

Another interesting verse:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Of course there is debate whether that verse only means up to that period in time (when Christ was alive), or if it could apply right up till Christ's return.

There was much discussion about these verses and others in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=137483

Cheers,
Legoman

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 03:58 AM
When I was a kid, early teens maybe, someone blew up the corner newspaper box. We lived 3 houses from that corner. The bomb squad and about 47 million police cars, fire trucks and ambulances were there, sirens and lights and the whole 9 yards. I had no clue. I slept through the whole thing. Explosion, commotion. All of it. Guess I was pretty tired! :rolleyes: My parents told me all about it the next morning and they couldn't believe I never heard a thing.

It was like I was dead. ;) I didn't know anything was going on. I had no knowledge of the chaos that reigned in the neighborhood. Not the scary stuff nor the sense of protection the public servants gave being there. Nothing.

But I, quite obviously, wasn't dead.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 29th 2008, 04:16 AM
I would also add into the mix the Fifth Seal of Revelation, where newly martyred believers apparently appear in heaven under the alter. It's difficult to say if that's what happens to all believers even before the Tribulation, but it is an example that shows at least one instance of newly dead believers going straight to heaven.

divaD
Sep 29th 2008, 04:20 AM
When I was a kid, early teens maybe, someone blew up the corner newspaper box. We lived 3 houses from that corner. The bomb squad and about 47 million police cars, fire trucks and ambulances were there, sirens and lights and the whole 9 yards. I had no clue. I slept through the whole thing. Explosion, commotion. All of it. Guess I was pretty tired! :rolleyes: My parents told me all about it the next morning and they couldn't believe I never heard a thing.

It was like I was dead. ;) I didn't know anything was going on. I had no knowledge of the chaos that reigned in the neighborhood. Not the scary stuff nor the sense of protection the public servants gave being there. Nothing.

But I, quite obviously, wasn't dead.



When I was in my mid teens, I knew another teen in his late teens. He had just moved to the town I was living in. I figure he was 18, 19 at the time. He told me that about 2 years prior, he was riding a motocycle and had a head on collision with a semi truck. He was pronounced dead at the scene, but somehow they were able to revive him at the hospital. He was clinically dead for a good period of time according to his medical records. Well, he didn't recall one thing during that time. He was not aware of a heaven or a hell.

Right after he told me this, he got a job working for the railroad, in which it required him to drive to the Chicago area and back on occasion, which was approx 200 miles away.
Probably not even 4 or 5 months later, I read about him in the local newspaper. It seems, he was driving back home from Chicago, fell asleep at the wheel, and rear ended a semi truck. This time he was never revived. I always found it rather bizarre that he could live thru a head on collision with a semi, according to him, both he and the semi were traveling at least 60 mph, but fail to survive a rear end collision with one. And since this has been
30 some yrs ago, I guess I wonder if he's aware of anything this time around, such as a heaven or a hell?

paidforinfull
Sep 29th 2008, 04:34 AM
'Sheol' (OT) or 'Hades' (NT) - the 'grave'. This is the temporary resting place where the spirits of both the righteous and the doomed go. There they will remain until the final Day of Judgment. It is from this place where the resurrection of the dead will eventually take place. The Bible indicates that our souls will 'sleep' there until Judgment Day.

Sheol is a place divided into two areas by an impassable chasm. On the one side of this divide is a place called paradise, and it is here where the blessed dead await their resurrection. On the other side is an infernal place similar to hell, and this is where the spirits of the unforgiven are kept and tormented until they are judged.

If we look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31), it is clear that the spirits in Sheol can recognize each other, and that they have memories about their lives before death.

Sheol is a prison with bars, and the disembodied spirits cannot leave it except when God allows it for a specific purpose, as was the case when the medium of Endor called up the dead prophet Samuel's spirit. This, however, will be an extremely rare occurrence. It means that there are no such things as ghosts bound to the sphere of the earth. Those spirits parading as 'ghosts' are actually not the spirits of the dead but demon spirits pretending to be the spirits of the dead.

After judgement the spirits of the dead will either go to heaven, or to hell.

divaD
Sep 29th 2008, 04:36 AM
I would also add into the mix the Fifth Seal of Revelation, where newly martyred believers apparently appear in heaven under the alter. It's difficult to say if that's what happens to all believers even before the Tribulation, but it is an example that shows at least one instance of newly dead believers going straight to heaven.



Hi Literalist-Luke. I assumed this passage would come up. The question is, should we take it literally or figuratively? To show what I mean, I'm sure you recall this verse.

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Obviously we would take this figuratively, since blood doesn't really cry out, well at least not in the sense that we would understand. But even so, I do tend to take Revelation 6:9 literal, even tho it could merely be symbolic in nature.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 29th 2008, 04:59 AM
Hi Literalist-Luke. I assumed this passage would come up. The question is, should we take it literally or figuratively? To show what I mean, I'm sure you recall this verse.

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Obviously we would take this figuratively, since blood doesn't really cry out, well at least not in the sense that we would understand. But even so, I do tend to take Revelation 6:9 literal, even tho it could merely be symbolic in nature.What reason would there be for taking the Fifth Seal as being "symbolic"?

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 05:44 AM
Goodness, I'm dizzy after reading that.OK, feel free to call me Vizzini :D


How can you reason that being with the Lord is preferrable, but yet say that being absent from the body doesn't release us to be present with the Lord? :confused Isn't that exactly what verse 6 states?No, that is not what verse 6 states. It says to be in the body means to not be with the Lord. I'll grossly paraphrase to clarify the difference:



v6: If I am in LA, I am not in New York.
v8: I would rather be in New York than LA.


Nowhere does it say the equivalent of "if I am not in LA, I am in New York."

markedward
Sep 29th 2008, 05:53 AM
But the fact that Paul does not indicate that there is a third 'option' lends evidence to the idea that it's either A or B, and not that there are mysterious other options. May I ask your opinion on post 4?

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 06:10 AM
But the fact that Paul does not indicate that there is a third 'option' lends evidence to the idea that it's either A or B, and not that there are mysterious other options. May I ask your opinion on post 4?I'm a bit wary of supporting an entire doctrine by inference. Paul wasn't speaking directly to the idea of what happens immediately when we die, he was speaking about it being better to be with the Lord. To say he meant that one immediately is in the presence of the Lord is inferred. There are LOADS of verses that explicitly indicate unawareness between death and the resurrection (unless you redefine things like "sleep" in order to fit the doctrine gleaned from an inference). Also, scripture explicitly mentions only one judgment, the final judgment. If unbelievers go to hell when they die, there would have to be some judgment in order for that to happen. So one must manufacture a first, temporary judgment in order to support the idea that, at death believers go one place and unbelievers go another. Based on the need to infer and manufacture things that scripture doesnt say, I would say the evidence points to all people being in an unconscious, unaware state until resurrection.

RE post #4:

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Every man will go to heaven immediately upon death, but not every one will stay there: the wicked will be condemned while the righteous will be commended.Scripture explicitly states that the judgment will be after resurrection. From the Hebrews verse, you're inferring "Just as man is destined to die once, and immediately after that to face judgment...". The context of the verse is that after we die, no more chances, it's not declaring that the judgment will occur immediately after death. Just that it will occur sometime after death.

As for the 2 Cor. verse, it says nothing about the timing of being in God's presence, other than it's after the judgment--which is after the resurrection. What verses are you using to make your final assertion (Every man will go to heaven immediately upon death)?

markedward
Sep 29th 2008, 06:20 AM
Scripture explicitly states that the judgment will be after resurrection. From the Hebrews verse, you're inferring "Just as man is destined to die once, and immediately after that to face judgment...". The context of the verse is that after we die, no more chances, it's not declaring that the judgment will occur immediately after death. Just that it will occur sometime after death.Chronologically speaking, the author said "First death, then judgment". Aren't you inferring that the author of Hebrews implied there was an indeterminate amount of time between "death" and "judgment" when there's no indication of that?


As for the 2 Cor. verse, it says nothing about the timing of being in God's presence, other than it's after the judgmentI was using it in the context of the "heaven" aspect: In the progression of "death" followed by "judgment", I used the verse to show what "judgment" actually is, namely (in context of the believer) the reward given to the good.


What verses are you using to make your final assertion (Every man will go to heaven immediately upon death)?Again, this is using the progression of "death" followed by "judgment". Judgment takes place at the throne, in heaven. You should have very well known "what verses" I was using, since I provided them immediately prior to my final assertion. Just because you disagree with the thought process doesn't mean I didn't provide verses for the end result.

divaD
Sep 29th 2008, 12:48 PM
Hi divaD,

Ecclesiastes 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

These verses seem to indicate we are not aware of our state when we die. The dead know nothing, there is no knowledge, etc. in the grave. Not until the resurrection that is... then we won't be in the grave anymore.

Another interesting verse:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Of course there is debate whether that verse only means up to that period in time (when Christ was alive), or if it could apply right up till Christ's return.

There was much discussion about these verses and others in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=137483

Cheers,
Legoman



To be honest, I've never really bought into the idea of soul sleep, but now I'm beginning to wonder. It seems that while we were in our youth, we were taught so many things they we take for granted and as truth. It seems when we get older and wiser, and check these things out for ourselves, everything is not always exactly as we have been lead to believe that they are.

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 01:17 PM
Sheol is a place divided into two areas by an impassable chasm. On the one side of this divide is a place called paradise, and it is here where the blessed dead await their resurrection. On the other side is an infernal place similar to hell, and this is where the spirits of the unforgiven are kept and tormented until they are judged.

If we look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31), it is clear that the spirits in Sheol can recognize each other, and that they have memories about their lives before death.

I think the whole place is a type of hell. Lazarus died first and apparently he was allowed to pass over to the preferred side of Hell. If you take the literal meaning of what is translated as torment, what the rich man was undergoing was a process of examination against a certain standard of measurement. Abraham speaks to the rich man and there is another word translated as torment. In this case, it is a different Greek word that has more to do with an emotion, as in sorrow, than something being done to him.

threebigrocks
Sep 29th 2008, 01:29 PM
To be honest, I've never really bought into the idea of soul sleep, but now I'm beginning to wonder. It seems that while we were in our youth, we were taught so many things they we take for granted and as truth. It seems when we get older and wiser, and check these things out for ourselves, everything is not always exactly as we have been lead to believe that they are.

Where does it say in scripture that our spirit is ever asleep, or unaware, or unconcious, etc.? It's our flesh.

Think of existing only in the spirit while our flesh awaits redemption.

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 01:40 PM
Chronologically speaking, the author said "First death, then judgment". Aren't you inferring that the author of Hebrews implied there was an indeterminate amount of time between "death" and "judgment" when there's no indication of that?Yes, the word "judgment" does chronologically come after the word "death" in the sentence. I suppose I am making an inference, but I'm doing so based on scripture after scripture after scripture that indicates that upon death, we are in a state of unawareness until resurrection. If the central idea of the passage was related specifically to the afterlife, I could agree with your inference rather than mine. However, the central idea is that just as Christ died once, we have one chance at life, and when it's over our decisions will have been made final. To clarify, see John 3:23.


I was using it in the context of the "heaven" aspect: In the progression of "death" followed by "judgment", I used the verse to show what "judgment" actually is, namely (in context of the believer) the reward given to the good.

Again, this is using the progression of "death" followed by "judgment". Judgment takes place at the throne, in heaven. You should have very well known "what verses" I was using, since I provided them immediately prior to my final assertion. Just because you disagree with the thought process doesn't mean I didn't provide verses for the end result.To say that judgment is the reward given to the good does nothing to support an intermediate state, it only says that the judgment will occur sometime after one is dead. So if the Hebrews verse is talking about a first, non-final judgment, what is the purpose of the final judgment after the resurrection if people have already received what is due them?

divaD
Sep 29th 2008, 01:51 PM
If we look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31), it is clear that the spirits in Sheol can recognize each
other, and that they have memories about their lives before death.



You already contradicted yourself before you even began. Since when are parables meant to be taken literally? One thing you are right about, this is definitely a parable. If you look at the parables preceeding this one, you'll notice that Jesus ended these series of parables according to the same theme as the prev ones. And besides, why is it when man dies, that he gets to go straight to hell and be endlessly tormented in fire, while at the same time, satan and his demons get to freely roam the universe? Why aren't they also being tormented? Could it be perhaps because the final judgment of God hasn't occured yet? If so, then why on earth would God send souls to hell, in order to be tormented with hell fire, before the final judgment?

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 02:08 PM
And besides, why is it when man dies, that he gets to go straight to hell and be endlessly tormented in fire, while at the same time, satan and his demons get to freely roam the universe? Why aren't they also being tormented? Could it be perhaps because the final judgment of God hasn't occured yet? If so, then why on earth would God send souls to hell, in order to be tormented with hell fire, before the final judgment?
I think the torment you refer to is the sadness of knowing you are not getting a positive verdict in your judgment after death. The fire is reserved for the final judgment, or the final execution of judgment.

Sonia Smit
Sep 29th 2008, 02:13 PM
I believe that when a person die, such a person goes for judgement, and then to heaven or hell. The Bible doesn't explain much about the "afterlife" as people call it, but it gives us direction while we are still alive to know how to live and not go to hell. The Bible teaches us that heaven awaits everyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour, and that hell awaits those who rejected Christ.

Is their live after death? Off course! Paul wrote "I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies ... For our earthly bodies, the ones we have now that can die, must be transformed into heavenly bodies that cannot perish but will live forever." Do we roam the earth after death? No we don't (although many believe we do).

In Rev 1:18 Jesus says : "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".

We all understand the Bible in different ways, and the Holy Spirit gives us each our own revelation on some topics, hence we should always listen to others when we are breaking word. :D

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 02:13 PM
I think the torment you refer to is the sadness of knowing you are not getting a positive verdict in your judgment after death. The fire is reserved for the final judgment, or the final execution of judgment.If you know what the verdict is, the judgment has already been made. I see how you've changed the meaning of judgment to mean execution. Execution occurs because of judgment, it is not itself judgment.

paidforinfull
Sep 29th 2008, 02:27 PM
You already contradicted yourself before you even began. Since when are parables meant to be taken literally? One thing you are right about, this is definitely a parable. If you look at the parables preceeding this one, you'll notice that Jesus ended these series of parables according to the same theme as the prev ones. And besides, why is it when man dies, that he gets to go straight to hell and be endlessly tormented in fire, while at the same time, satan and his demons get to freely roam the universe? Why aren't they also being tormented? Could it be perhaps because the final judgment of God hasn't occured yet? If so, then why on earth would God send souls to hell, in order to be tormented with hell fire, before the final judgment?

Dear divaD - parables are similitudes, but they are not lies - they are based on truth. This specific parable warns of a future danger.

Not all fallen angels are roaming free - quite a number have been bound in the Abyss, where they are awaiting final judgment. The rest are earthbound in order to fulfill their role in the cosmic drama.

The final judgment has not yet taken place. As I have explained before, the souls of the dead are in a temporary holding place called 'Sheol' or 'Hades'. Those who died in Christ will definitely be going to heaven after Judgment day, the others, so the Bible tells us, will go to hell. We have one life in which to accept Christ, and, if we do not, we are doomed.

I also had all these questions, so I know where you are coming from. I hope this helps you (at least a bit) in your personal quest for the truth. God bless.

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 02:30 PM
If you know what the verdict is, the judgment has already been made. I see how you've changed the meaning of judgment to mean execution. Execution occurs because of judgment, it is not itself judgment.
Let's say you have a positive verdict. Now when is that judgment executed? Maybe when the followers of the Lamb are gathered and given white robes to wear. My point is that you die and then the judgment. Meaning you have been examined. When is that negative verdict acted on? My guess would be at the end of the world, or whenever your particular religion says that something like the end of sin is finalized.
I am attempting to explain what I think the Bible says, without sounding like I am promoting any particular denominational bias.

crush
Sep 29th 2008, 03:30 PM
Let's say you have a positive verdict. Now when is that judgment executed? Maybe when the followers of the Lamb are gathered and given white robes to wear. My point is that you die and then the judgment. Meaning you have been examined. When is that negative verdict acted on? My guess would be at the end of the world, or whenever your particular religion says that something like the end of sin is finalized.
I am attempting to explain what I think the Bible says, without sounding like I am promoting any particular denominational bias.

There is a special blessing given to those that are martyred during the tribulation..."blessed are the dead that die henceforth" [Rev 14:13]

This is a special period of time when judgement is suspended, and anyone who lays down their life for Jesus WILL have salvation and eternal life and receive a white robe. [Rev 7:13-17] Because their works have saved them. [Rev 14:13]

Also it's important to note that these [tribulation martyrs] are the ONLY ones mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 as being resurrected in the "first resurrection" and given the special blessing "the second death has no power" prior to the GWT Judgement day.

All other believers with the exception of the tribulation martyrs (and those alive at the end of the trib) can expect to "rest" until the GWT judgement day - after the "heavens have passed away" [Job 14:12]

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
There is a special blessing given to those that are martyred during the tribulation..."blessed are the dead that die henceforth" [Rev 14:13]

This is a special period of time when judgement is suspended, and anyone who lays down their life for Jesus WILL have salvation and eternal life and receive a white robe. [Rev 7:13-17] Because their works have saved them. [Rev 14:13]

Also it's important to note that these [tribulation martyrs] are the ONLY ones mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 as being resurrected in the "first resurrection" and given the special blessing "the second death has no power" prior to the GWT Judgement day.

All other believers with the exception of the tribulation martyrs (and those alive at the end of the trib) can expect to "rest" until the GWT judgement day - after the "heavens have passed away" [Job 14:4]
Maybe. We seem to be getting into a controversial zone here. I mean your particular denomination or whatever may have a certain emphasis and I do not want to attack anyone's particular belief system.
There is a certain amount of symbolism in Revelation and I would say that there is something about crowns being distributed to special people but I think everyone who will be saved will be risen at the same time.

crush
Sep 29th 2008, 03:55 PM
Maybe. We seem to be getting into a controversial zone here. I mean your particular denomination or whatever may have a certain emphasis and I do not want to attack anyone's particular belief system.


If by "controversial" you mean that most people don't like it, yeah, I agree LOL.

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 04:08 PM
If by "controversial" you mean that most people don't like it, yeah, I agree LOL.
Well, its not just that. We are not supposed to be using this forum to promote any particular denomination. I am not wanting to get into all the intricacies of end times and all that. Just trying to keep a little bit on topic.
For example, if you think the rich man and Lazarus is just a fable or something not based on reality, you can just ignore everything I write in this thread. Also if you think there are several different judgments, feel free to ignore everything I write.

crush
Sep 29th 2008, 04:47 PM
Well, its not just that. We are not supposed to be using this forum to promote any particular denomination.
Well I'm not in danger of promoting a specific denomination, since I don't belong to any denomination LOL.


I am not wanting to get into all the intricacies of end times and all that. Just trying to keep a little bit on topic.
you made this comment as if it applied to all believers that die, I was just pointing out that it doesn't apply to all believers. It applies to a specific group of believers that is explained in Rev 7:13-17.

Maybe when the followers of the Lamb are gathered and given white robes to wear.

I believe that when the dead are given a "special blessing" during the endtimes, it should be pointed out so that this "blessing" isn't mistakenly incorporated into a doctrine, and applied to all believers. Just my opinion.

For example, if you think the rich man and Lazarus is just a fable or something not based on reality, you can just ignore everything I write in this thread.I made no comment on the "rich man and Lazarus" parable, and I'm open to hearing your ideas about it. But I think it would be unwise to accept the parable as "literal" without comparing it to all other scriptures on the subject.


Also if you think there are several different judgments, feel free to ignore everything I write.I don't think there are "several" judgments, I think there is one judgment, the GWT Judgment day. I was pointing out that those "in Christ" that die during the Great Tribulation aren't judged *shrugs*

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 04:56 PM
Well I'm not in danger of promoting a specific denomination, since I don't belong to any denomination LOL.
you made this comment as if it applied to all believers that die, I was just pointing out that it doesn't apply to all believers. It applies to a specific group of believers that is explained in Rev 7:13-17.
I believe that when the dead are given a "special blessing" during the endtimes, it should be pointed out so that this "blessing" isn't mistakenly incorporated into a doctrine, and applied to all believers. Just my opinion.
I made no comment on the "rich man and Lazarus" parable, and I'm open to hearing your ideas about it. But I think it would be unwise to accept the parable as "literal" without comparing it to all other scriptures on the subject.
I don't think there are "several" judgments, I think there is one judgment, the GWT Judgment day. I was pointing out that those "in Christ" that die during the Great Tribulation aren't judged *shrugs*
I was trying to make a general statement that did not necessarily apply to you. I do not want people to feel obligated to debate details with me if they do not even accept the premise of my argument, better to go back to the premise or just ignore me completely. For example I do not argue about points of the Bible with atheists. No sense arguing with my take on Lazarus if you think it is pure fiction.

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 04:57 PM
Let's say you have a positive verdict. Now when is that judgment executed? Maybe when the followers of the Lamb are gathered and given white robes to wear. My point is that you die and then the judgment. Meaning you have been examined. When is that negative verdict acted on? My guess would be at the end of the world, or whenever your particular religion says that something like the end of sin is finalized.
I am attempting to explain what I think the Bible says, without sounding like I am promoting any particular denominational bias.I appreciate your comments, and I'm not arguing from any denomination's position (though I'm sure some denominations believe some of what I'm positing). I'm merely trying to flesh this idea out and see what is able to stick and what isn't. I don't have a vested interest in the answer being one thing or another--I just want to get to the truth of the matter, leaving all pre-conceived notions aside. Using that approach, I've found the "consciously unaware until resurrection" idea to have more explicit and consistent support from scripture.

I still think you're making a definitional error--you seem to be saying that the final judgment is actually just the execution of the initial judgment. I'm saying the final judgment is just that--a judgment, not merely the execution of a pervious judgment. Once again, in order to support the idea of a judgment immediately after death, you have to redefine the word "judgment" to mean "the execution of a previous judgment". That is not what "judgment" means.

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 05:04 PM
I was trying to make a general statement that did not necessarily apply to you. I do not want people to feel obligated to debate details with me if they do not even accept the premise of my argument, better to go back to the premise or just ignore me completely. For example I do not argue about points of the Bible with atheists. No sense arguing with my take on Lazarus if you think it is pure fiction.I certainly see your point here--I've found a lot of people (way more than I would hope) have their minds made up about certain things and no amount of evidence will change their mind (it happens on both sides of any argument, including this one). As frustrating as it can be, I would encourage you to keep putting forth arguments. Some of us, while we are questioning whether the story of Lazarus is literal, are open to whatever the truth is. In my case, it may seem that I'm being bull-headed with my positions, but I'm really just trying to see if the these ideas have legs to stand on under close scrutiny. so please, by all means make the case as fully as you can. Some of us will be willing to change our minds if the evidence for a certain interpretation is strong.

crush
Sep 29th 2008, 05:18 PM
I certainly see your point here--I've found a lot of people (way more than I would hope) have their minds made up about certain things and no amount of evidence will change their mind (it happens on both sides of any argument, including this one). As frustrating as it can be, I would encourage you to keep putting forth arguments. Some of us, while we are questioning whether the story of Lazarus is literal, are open to whatever the truth is. In my case, it may seem that I'm being bull-headed with my positions, but I'm really just trying to see if the these ideas have legs to stand on under close scrutiny. so please, by all means make the case as fully as you can. Some of us will be willing to change our minds if the evidence for a certain interpretation is strong.

:) agreed, that was the OP's concern, that all scriptures concerning the matter are in agreement - so ignoring all but "the rich man and Lazarus" parable isn't the intent of the thread IMO

Ethnikos
Sep 29th 2008, 05:26 PM
I appreciate your comments, and I'm not arguing from any denomination's position (though I'm sure some denominations believe some of what I'm positing). I'm merely trying to flesh this idea out and see what is able to stick and what isn't. I don't have a vested interest in the answer being one thing or another--I just want to get to the truth of the matter, leaving all pre-conceived notions aside. Using that approach, I've found the "consciously unaware until resurrection" idea to have more explicit and consistent support from scripture.

I still think you're making a definitional error--you seem to be saying that the final judgment is actually just the execution of the initial judgment. I'm saying the final judgment is just that--a judgment, not merely the execution of a pervious judgment. Once again, in order to support the idea of a judgment immediately after death, you have to redefine the word "judgment" to mean "the execution of a previous judgment". That is not what "judgment" means.
When you watch a show on tv, to get into it, you have to go through something called suspension of disbelief. It could be that to read the story of the rich man and Lazarus, you have to suspend belief, as in reading it as it is given. This may require holding back from what you already have in your mind about how things really work.
I really do not have much to say other than what I already stated. Looking at what the actual words say, without trying to reinterpret them based on what we think they should say; you get a story that would go something like: Lazarus was allowed to crossover a point that he could not do on his own. The rich man was not able to cross as he was being held against a measure that he could not fulfill. He then turned to using what seemed to him to be a reasonable request, in order to get a more satisfactory result. He was then told that what he asked for was not reasonable and that what he was given was fair for him, and if he did not like it, then too bad.

zombieCat
Sep 29th 2008, 06:11 PM
When you watch a show on tv, to get into it, you have to go through something called suspension of disbelief. It could be that to read the story of the rich man and Lazarus, you have to suspend belief, as in reading it as it is given. This may require holding back from what you already have in your mind about how things really work.
I really do not have much to say other than what I already stated. Looking at what the actual words say, without trying to reinterpret them based on what we think they should say; you get a story that would go something like: Lazarus was allowed to crossover a point that he could not do on his own. The rich man was not able to cross as he was being held against a measure that he could not fulfill. He then turned to using what seemed to him to be a reasonable request, in order to get a more satisfactory result. He was then told that what he asked for was not reasonable and that what he was given was fair for him, and if he did not like it, then too bad.I really like the "suspension of disbelief (or belief)" idea you presented. In fact, it struck a chord regarding the fundamental process of interpreting scripture in general--something I'll start another thread on at some point.

You caught my attention when you mentioned reading the text as it stands, without any further interpretation, as I am more and more coming to the point of doing just that, unless a different reading is obvious. So far, with the Lazarus story on its own, I could go either way (literal or parable). I am tending to lean toward parable. Your comments above (last few sentences) tend to strengthen that idea, as you're talking about spiritual implications rather than physical location. I think that is an accurate representation of the story.

Ashley274
Sep 30th 2008, 01:37 AM
I believe your spirit goes right to Jesus. I look in Acts where Stephen was martyred and he SAW Jesus as he was dying...he spoke with him on behalf of those killing him. Thats just my take on it all....

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 03:43 AM
I believe your spirit goes right to Jesus. I look in Acts where Stephen was martyred and he SAW Jesus as he was dying...he spoke with him on behalf of those killing him. Thats just my take on it all....
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are with Jesus, in a certain way, now, so there does not need to be a "going to", in a direct sense.
I am sure Stephen was given a vision, but it does not necessarily mean he was going to anywhere in particular.

Ashley274
Sep 30th 2008, 04:11 AM
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are with Jesus, in a certain way, now, so there does not need to be a "going to", in a direct sense.
I am sure Stephen was given a vision, but it does not necessarily mean he was going to anywhere in particular.


I am just replying to the OP on what I believe based on scripture...When I first posted this I knew the possibility existed that one could come back with a piece of scripture that might point towards another POV and that is fine....but one could go back and forth in a debate that would move this whole thread or just voice their belief...That is all I am doing....I think the debating area is on Contro....I respect your opinons and beliefs though mine vary.

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 04:35 AM
I was on another forum a while back and I got into a discussion about where people go when they die. I was responding to a post that I will partialy quote:

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Is this where hell is maybe ?Outside of the gates of that great City of God where they cannot enter in and some of their torment is that they cannot enter in .And will have to watch everyone in the city .
I believe that the fire is spiritually speaking .and so is the gnashing of teethe.
In other words it is their souls that are on fire (Thirsting ) And the gnashing of teethe as in their spirit is tormented by the deeds they have done .(as in they cant quench their guilt)
She seemed to have done quite a bit of study on death, on her own, and was trying to reconcile what she had learned, with the Bible.
I was struck by what she came up with and she ended up teaching me a couple of things I had not thought of before.

9Marksfan
Sep 30th 2008, 09:28 AM
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are with Jesus, in a certain way, now, so there does not need to be a "going to", in a direct sense.
I am sure Stephen was given a vision, but it does not necessarily mean he was going to anywhere in particular.

But he prayed "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit".

Let's have alook at the kind of man he was:-

He is described as being "full of faith and power" (Acts 6:8)
His face was "as the face of an angel" (Acts 6:15)
He was "full of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:55)
He preaches one of the boldest and bravest sermons ever preached (Acts 7:2-53)
He sees a vision of the exalted Christ waiting for him (Acts 7:55b)
He is the first martyr of the early church (Acts 7:60b)
His final words echo those of Christ on the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Acts 7:60a)
He asks Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59b)

And you're saying his theology was just way off when he prayed that Jesus would receive his spirit? Of course his spirit went somehwere - it went to be with Christ in glory! Not to stay in the grave (or anywhere else) - fast asleep for centuries! It's his BODY that slept! :B

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 03:42 PM
But he prayed "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit".
And you're saying his theology was just way off when he prayed that Jesus would receive his spirit? Of course his spirit went somehwere - it went to be with Christ in glory! Not to stay in the grave (or anywhere else) - fast asleep for centuries! It's his BODY that slept! :B
Acts, where we find the story of Stephen, was supposedly written by Luke and in the Gospel of Luke we find a very similar statement by Jesus, as he hung dying on the cross. These two people seem to be reciting a familiar quote and we can find it in 31 Psalm. I will quote it here along with a few verses in the same chapter to give a little context to where these people expected to be going, when their spirits were rescued from their enemies.


5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
11 I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.
15 My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
19 Oh how great is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; which thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.

9Marksfan
Sep 30th 2008, 04:14 PM
Acts, where we find the story of Stephen, was supposedly written by Luke and in the Gospel of Luke we find a very similar statement by Jesus, as he hung dying on the cross. These two people seem to be reciting a familiar quote and we can find it in 31 Psalm. I will quote it here along with a few verses in the same chapter to give a little context to where these people expected to be going, when their spirits were rescued from their enemies.

So you reckon that we should interpret "pavilion" (shelter) as Paradise?

Granted, I am prepared to accept that may have been the case before the Ascension - but what about now? Who inhabits Heaven, between the Ascension and Christ's return, here and now? And how many of Heaven's inhabitants are consciously praising God?

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 04:38 PM
I am used to posting on forums that are overrun by atheists and weird occult followers and I normally just try to sketch out a very basic description of what a Christian may believe, that would be understandable to people from different backgrounds. There are lost souls wandering around on the internet looking for something to believe in. You are already in Heaven and praising God, as far as I am concerned.

The Parson
Sep 30th 2008, 04:45 PM
It's probably time this thread come to an end folks. You are starting to go around in circles. Please make your closing statements over the next few hours and the thread will be closed. It's 12:45 pm my time so I'll probably close it down about 4:00 pm today.

9Marksfan
Sep 30th 2008, 04:46 PM
You are already in Heaven and praising God, as far as I am concerned.

Amen! That was just the passage I had in mind!

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Heb 12:22-24 NKJV

Ethnikos
Sep 30th 2008, 05:05 PM
Let's suppose there is a Hades, just for the sake of argument, Jesus went there, according to Peter and preached to people who apparently died before Jesus taught the Gospel. I kind of doubt that we can do that ourselves so we have to be careful of how we communicate to people right here. There are a few people who died the same day that I talked to them and to go back and think about it later, makes you realize how important it is to be encouraging to others.

John146
Sep 30th 2008, 08:20 PM
If your answer is that he or she goes straight to heaven, can you back that with Scripture without contradicting other Scripture? If this is what you believe, is it because you have been taught to believe this, or because this is what the Bible teaches? I truly believe that if just one thing can be contradicted by another thing, then obviously one hasn't arrived at the truth. Can truth contradict itself and still be truth?

I'm mainly interested in what others think happens to a believer at death, according to Scripture, and whether or not it causes contradictions in other Scripture.I haven't been taught what to believe on this so my view comes from my own study. Also, I'm responding to this without first looking at any other responses.

My view is that the souls and spirits of believers depart from the body and go to be with the Lord.

Here is some of my scriptural support for this:

Acts 7
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So, just before Stephen died, He asked Jesus, who he saw in heaven, to receive his spirit. This tells me that his spirit went to be with Jesus when his body died.

2 Corinthians 5
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You've probably heard someone say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" as if they are directly quoting scripture. Well, that is not the exact words used, but I do believe that is what Paul is implying here. He says while we are at home in the body, which I think just means while we are still physically alive on the earth, we are physically absent from the Lord, who is physically in heaven since we know He ascended there physically (Acts 1:9). This is why Paul then says we'd rather be absent from the body, which means physically dead, so that we could be present with the Lord. This implies that we would be present with the Lord upon physical death, just as Stephen seemed to believe would be the case.

Paul seemed to teach this same concept in the following passage:

Philippians 1
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Again, he indicates that by physically dying and departing from the body he would then "be with Christ".

Here is a passage that shows the souls of believers in a state of consciousness in heaven:

Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls are wherever Jesus is when opening the seals and we know that is heaven. It shows them as being conscious since it even has them speaking to the Lord and being spoken to.

Eric

John146
Sep 30th 2008, 08:41 PM
But what about passages like these?

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55*O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If the believer is already in heaven upon death, then who are all these passages referring to? Why would anyone need to be resurrected and put on immortality, and be awaken from sleep within the dust of the earth, if they're already in heaven? I guess my question is, what is being awoken from the dust of the earth? The physical body? The soul?Clearly, those passages are all only speaking of the physical body.

Here is the context of what 1 Cor 15:51-54 is about:

1 Cor 15
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Our spirits will not be in need of changing. We are already new creatures by being made spiritually alive in Christ. It is our bodies that are still mortal and corruptible and they will be changed and made immortal and incorruptible when Christ returns.

crush
Sep 30th 2008, 09:02 PM
Here is a passage that shows the souls of believers in a state of consciousness in heaven:

Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls are wherever Jesus is when opening the seals and we know that is heaven. It shows them as being conscious since it even has them speaking to the Lord and being spoken to.

Eric

There is a special blessing that goes out before the tribulation martyrs die, that exempts them from judgment.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them

If everyone that dies, has their souls separated into reward or punishment at the point of death, that would make judgement day, opening the book of life, etc. pointless IMO.

divaD
Sep 30th 2008, 09:48 PM
Clearly, those passages are all only speaking of the physical body.

Here is the context of what 1 Cor 15:51-54 is about:

1 Cor 15
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Our spirits will not be in need of changing. We are already new creatures by being made spiritually alive in Christ. It is our bodies that are still mortal and corruptible and they will be changed and made immortal and incorruptible when Christ returns.

Doesn't our natural body contain a spirit? So what exactly would a spirit body be? A spirit in a spirit body? But if our spirit is in need of no change, then why is our body, which might be nothing but dust when the resurrection occurs?


Verse 44 seems to show that there is a natural body, and a spiritual body, and that these two are not the same.

Are you basically saying this? When we die, and if we're a believer, we go straight to heaven. And when the resurrection occurs, our spirit in heaven is united with our body in the ground, and we become a new body, a spiritual body?

John146
Sep 30th 2008, 10:37 PM
There is a special blessing that goes out before the tribulation martyrs die, that exempts them from judgment.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them

If everyone that dies, has their souls separated into reward or punishment at the point of death, that would make judgement day, opening the book of life, etc. pointless IMO.Why is that? Believers still are looking forward to the reward of the redemption of our bodies by being changed and then having immortal and incorruptible bodies. Is that pointless? Unbelievers, on the other hand, are not yet in the lake of fire, which is the second death. If you think unbelievers should just be cast into the lake of fire upon death, take that up with God. All people will be judged/rewarded at the same time on the day of judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15) whether you think it's pointless or not.

John146
Sep 30th 2008, 10:38 PM
Doesn't our natural body contain a spirit? So what exactly would a spirit body be? A spirit in a spirit body? But if our spirit is in need of no change, then why is our body, which might be nothing but dust when the resurrection occurs?Because our bodies are mortal and corruptible. Our spirits, on the other hand, have been made new. Are we not new creatures? Yet we still have mortal and corruptible bodies. What does that tell you?


Verse 44 seems to show that there is a natural body, and a spiritual body, and that these two are not the same.

Are you basically saying this? When we die, and if we're a believer, we go straight to heaven. And when the resurrection occurs, our spirit in heaven is united with our body in the ground, and we become a new body, a spiritual body?Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Look at this passage closely:

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Okay, this passage says the Lord Jesus will DESCEND from heaven. And those who sleep in Him will be with him. That means they were with Him in heaven. Yet, no one yet at that point will have had their bodies changed from mortal to immortal. What else can this mean except that it is the souls of the dead in Christ that come with Him from heaven when He returns?

Are you aware that it is mostly cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses and pseudo cults/denominations like the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the Worldwide Church of God that believe in soul sleep?

divaD
Sep 30th 2008, 11:06 PM
Because our bodies are mortal and corruptible. Our spirits, on the other hand, have been made new. Are we not new creatures? Yet we still have mortal and corruptible bodies. What does that tell you?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Look at this passage closely:

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Okay, this passage says the Lord Jesus will DESCEND from heaven. And those who sleep in Him will be with him. That means they were with Him in heaven. Yet, no one yet at that point will have had their bodies changed from mortal to immortal. What else can this mean except that it is the souls of the dead in Christ that come with Him from heaven when He returns?

Are you aware that it is mostly cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses and pseudo cults/denominations like the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the Worldwide Church of God that believe in soul sleep?



Hi John146. Personally I don't believe in soul sleep. I'm pretty certain I made that known earlier in this thread. I'm seriously just trying to understand how a resuurection of the dead fits in with things, if one is alrady in heaven, and why one doesn't put on immortality until the resurrection, which makes it somewhat difficult to understand how they can be in heaven, and not be immortal yet, since this occurs at the resurrection. Trust me, even tho I have to vaguely wonder if soul sleep might be real, I'm certainly not wanting to promote that idea, nor do I really entertain that idea in a deeper sense.

crush
Oct 1st 2008, 12:35 AM
Why is that? Believers still are looking forward to the reward of the redemption of our bodies by being changed and then having immortal and incorruptible bodies. Is that pointless? Unbelievers, on the other hand, are not yet in the lake of fire, which is the second death. If you think unbelievers should just be cast into the lake of fire upon death, take that up with God. All people will be judged/rewarded at the same time on the day of judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15) whether you think it's pointless or not.

Looking forward to immortality isn't wasted by being resurrected to "life" at the GWT judgment day on God's timetable.


Okay, this passage says the Lord Jesus will DESCEND from heaven. And those who sleep in Him will be with him. That means they were with Him in heaven. Yet, no one yet at that point will have had their bodies changed from mortal to immortal. What else can this mean except that it is the souls of the dead in Christ that come with Him from heaven when He returns?

Granted, when read alone 1Thess4 would seem to say that ALL believers in Christ that have ever died are raised at his coming. But if you compare it to the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:4-6, which I believe is the same event, it's a different story. The ONLY ones that participate in the "first resurrection" are the trib martyrs, they are the ONLY "souls" that appear in heaven, and they are the ONLY "dead in Christ" that receive a blessing that would exempt them from being judged at the GWT judgment day. So do the math LOL.


Are you aware that it is mostly cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses and pseudo cults/denominations like the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the Worldwide Church of God that believe in soul sleep?
I don't personally know what these "pseudo cults/denominations" believe in, and don't really care. But if they believe that, for instance, Jesus healed the sick, are we supposed to "not believe" that, because they believe it? LOL

divaD
Oct 1st 2008, 12:58 AM
I don't personally know what these "pseudo cults/denominations" believe in, and don't really care. But if they believe that, for instance, Jesus healed the sick, are we supposed to "not believe" that, because they believe it? LOL



I'm almost afraid to agree with you, but good point.

Ethnikos
Oct 1st 2008, 01:56 AM
. I'm seriously just trying to understand how a resuurection of the dead fits in with things, if one is alrady in heaven, and why one doesn't put on immortality until the resurrection, which makes it somewhat difficult to understand how they can be in heaven, and not be immortal yet, since this occurs at the resurrection. Some years back I had a young woman who was working at my store and she was a raver and told me about one going on. Someone was selling a drug there and no telling what it was exactly but it had the apparent affect on people that they thought that they did not have bodies. They acted like they were just some consciousness floating around the room, or something.
If your conciousness somehow detaches itself (not by drugs) from the body, your mind creates a phantom body.
My brother who is kind of a computer genius, made a program that is like a conscious person who he could make believe had parts that it did not really have.(not sure how, his secret project)
I would offer as a way to understand what happens; your mind could have a body that it only thinks it has, and it is used as a device to limit the mobility of the mind, in a way that seems natural, considering how previously the mind had been limited by a truly physical body.(I am talking about before the resurrection)
* * * * * *
Here is a verse to keep in mind, with all this talk about spirit. We need to actually do some work today, in order for our spirit to go to a good place.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ashley274
Oct 1st 2008, 06:20 AM
Bingo that is what I was saying in less words.... :hug:


But he prayed "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit".

Let's have alook at the kind of man he was:-

He is described as being "full of faith and power" (Acts 6:8)
His face was "as the face of an angel" (Acts 6:15)
He was "full of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:55)
He preaches one of the boldest and bravest sermons ever preached (Acts 7:2-53)
He sees a vision of the exalted Christ waiting for him (Acts 7:55b)
He is the first martyr of the early church (Acts 7:60b)
His final words echo those of Christ on the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Acts 7:60a)
He asks Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59b)

And you're saying his theology was just way off when he prayed that Jesus would receive his spirit? Of course his spirit went somehwere - it went to be with Christ in glory! Not to stay in the grave (or anywhere else) - fast asleep for centuries! It's his BODY that slept! :B

MyGod
Oct 1st 2008, 11:49 PM
It's probably time this thread come to an end folks. You are starting to go around in circles. Please make your closing statements over the next few hours and the thread will be closed. It's 12:45 pm my time so I'll probably close it down about 4:00 pm today.

Parson,

I haven't been here long. How do you determine which thread has come to an end. I'm not being a smartie, I'm genuinely asking because there are other threads (i.e. the speaking in tongues thread) that has gone around in circles as well (I just viewed that one). I'm not saying that should be closed. It's been an interesting read. I don't think this one should be either. I'm just curious as to how you determine.

Whitey
Aug 7th 2009, 05:02 PM
i am at the office right now, near the end of lunch. was searching through the threads and found this one and thought i'd offer my $.02. and i am not sure if this has been touched upon in this thread yet, so forgive me if it has because i dont have time to go through the entire thread at the moment.

but the Lord plainly states I will never leave thee or forsake thee. if you are unconscious/non-existent/asleep after death isnt that being forsaken?

for example, if someone that trusted in the Lord died 1,700 years ago, and they have been non-existent for 1,700+ years and counting, IF THATS NOT LEAVING AND FORSAKING SOMEONE THEN I DONT KNOW WHAT IS???

Mike

9Marksfan
Aug 8th 2009, 04:23 PM
Good point - and you've also reminded me I forgot to close the thread, which I'll do now.