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Christian_lady
Oct 1st 2008, 01:35 AM
A question about the end-times...
When the anti-Christ comes, are we already whisked up to Heaven?

Another question: Are all Christians taken up to Heaven before these "challenges"? occur?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 1st 2008, 01:58 AM
Even if the Rapture were Pre-Trib (which it isn't), there's still a very likely chance that believers would see the Antichrist and be able to ID him for who he is. That seven-year covenant that Daniel 9:26-27 speaks of him "confirming" won't just happen overnight. World leaders don't get together and sign multi-year treaties just off the cuff. I have no doubt it will be in the news in advance and we'll know exactly what's coming.

markedward
Oct 1st 2008, 03:01 AM
Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

The Revelation depicts "the saints" (i.e., the followers of Christ) as being persecuted. Absolutely nowhere in the Revelation are the Christians depicted as being "whisked away" to heaven prior to the rule of the beast and the persecution he instigates.

My heart's Desire
Oct 1st 2008, 04:37 AM
A question about the end-times...
When the anti-Christ comes, are we already whisked up to Heaven?

Another question: Are all Christians taken up to Heaven before these "challenges"? occur?
Oh, I think he will be here somewhere before the church is raptured, just that he will not be revealed as such UNTIL after the Church is gone.

Joe King
Oct 1st 2008, 05:06 AM
The anti Christ will be the most public figure in history, even more than Jesus with the advances in technology.

The key question is if there is a rapture and if it happens before the aC is on the scene. I say yes there is a rapture but only after the tribulation and before the wrath of God is poured out, so technically I am a mid-tribulation rapture supporter.

Jude
Oct 1st 2008, 08:17 AM
The key word here is smokescreen, Paul the Apostle made it clear at least he did in my mind that the mystery of iniquity was already at work. That work as I see it was based in Babylon and its culture, the Roman empire satisfied that requirement. The beast as he's called and for good reason was to receive a deadly head wound, that was accomplished as the Roman Empire fell, translated the Babylonian Empire. The next event we were to look for was that head wound being healed, that event has happened in the new Roman Empire that empire is modern day Rome enter the Vatican. They have all the pomp and ceremony that was held to honor Caesar. We now have the new Caesars. The head or the Anti-Christ was to make and agreement with the Jews, he is identified as a man of peace, the Pope satisfies that requirement. Watch this tape and ask yourself if the second coming of Jesus Christ is even at the doors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmW9kgyvwkI&feature=related


Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Roelof
Oct 1st 2008, 12:53 PM
I say yes there is a rapture but only after the tribulation and before the wrath of God is poured out, so technically I am a mid-tribulation rapture supporter.

Joe

I share your view points :pp

Jude
Oct 1st 2008, 01:10 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/f_thinking2m_79d7b7e.gif

Pre > Mid > Post that's one two three comings :hmm:

Where does the Anti-Christ fit into this theory :giveup:
Jude

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/cents2.gif

Roelof
Oct 1st 2008, 01:44 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/f_thinking2m_79d7b7e.gif

Pre > Mid > Post that's one two three comings :hmm:

Where does the Anti-Christ fit into this theory :giveup:



The way I understand it, the AC will be revealed in the beginning of the Trib. Depending on your pre-, mid- or post trib rapture view point, the true church will be raptured to Heaven. It is therefore possible that you can spend some time with the AC before the Rapture.

Jude
Oct 1st 2008, 02:40 PM
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc228/crzygrniis31/Ancient/Pyramids-2.jpg

God provides a way when we least expect it take the Egyptians. They worshiped the sun god when the Lord pour out his judgment the Hebrews had safe haven in Goshen not one of the plagues touched them because of Gods promise to keep them safe. When all his wrath is pour out this time why would we even imagine He'd neglect us. We will see his glory shine upon us, trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto our own understanding. When the Hebrews left Egypt He parted the Red Sea.

Jude



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Jude
Oct 1st 2008, 02:52 PM
All to often we put God in a box so to speak why would we doubt him unless our faith were waining. Being filled with his holy spirit is more than going to church and advertising how righteous we are he's allowed us a gift that cannot be understood in our flesh. God is spirit are they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Joe King
Oct 1st 2008, 03:37 PM
The way I understand it, the AC will be revealed in the beginning of the Trib. Depending on your pre-, mid- or post trib rapture view point, the true church will be raptured to Heaven. It is therefore possible that you can spend some time with the AC before the Rapture.

The way I read that made me:lol:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 1st 2008, 03:49 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do nor see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

Jude
Oct 1st 2008, 04:21 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/gorilles-03.gif

When I start feeling like this its time for a nap its all yours guys. :giveup:

Jude



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/cents2.gif

Mograce2U
Oct 1st 2008, 05:15 PM
The key word here is smokescreen, Paul the Apostle made it clear at least he did in my mind that the mystery of iniquity was already at work. That work as I see it was based in Babylon and its culture, the Roman empire satisfied that requirement. The beast as he's called and for good reason was to receive a deadly head wound, that was accomplished as the Roman Empire fell, translated the Babylonian Empire. The next event we were to look for was that head wound being healed, that event has happened in the new Roman Empire that empire is modern day Rome enter the Vatican. They have all the pomp and ceremony that was held to honor Caesar. We now have the new Caesars. The head or the Anti-Christ was to make and agreement with the Jews, he is identified as a man of peace, the Pope satisfies that requirement. Watch this tape and ask yourself if the second coming of Jesus Christ is even at the doors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmW9kgyvwkI&feature=related


Jude
Interesting video. What it shows is that the antichrist is apostate Judaism and the Pope his false prophet.

Dani H
Oct 1st 2008, 11:12 PM
The antichrist is a spiritual principality and has been around for centuries. There are many of them, and they are all over the map, and they invade people's thoughts and works with their lies (hence the "mark" on the forehead = thought processes, and the hands = people's works).

The "beast" is just a more intensified perpetuation and manifestation of the workings of this principality and its little henchlings as they invade the minds of people and spread their lies, as it works with religious spirits and principalities to bring even more deception and de-throne Jesus in the hearts and minds of people and elevate mere men to god-status (the abomination of desolation). It is a spiritual event and reality and has been happening and will continue to happen until Jesus returns. Which is why our minds are to be renewed daily with God's Word and why our faith must express itself by works, as faith without works is dead.

But keep looking for a person, it's good entertainment. Probably better than what's on TV these days.

:D

Gods Child
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:31 AM
A question about the end-times...
When the anti-Christ comes, are we already whisked up to Heaven?

Another question: Are all Christians taken up to Heaven before these "challenges"? occur?

The anti-Christ comes at the beginning of the tribulation.
Jesus SAID (Matthew 24;29-31) that we will be gathered …“IMMEDIATLEY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Jesus answered your question…If the beast comes at the beginning of the tribulation and Jesus said we will be gathered AFTER the tribulation, then that means we will be here for the tribulation, because Jesus said we would.


Mat 24;29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Need more proof? 1 Cor 15:50-52 says All will be changed. All would have to include the trib-Saints.
It also says we will be changed at the "last trump" (remember the “last trump” because that is important).
Then it says at this time Death is swallowed up in victory. In order for death to be swallowed up in victory, then "Jesus Coming/Our Gathering" has to be at the end of the tribulation, because death is swallowed up at that time.


1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Cor 15 told us that ALL will be changed at the “last trump”.
Let’s look at the last trump, which is the 7th trumpet (Rev 11 & Rev 14).
At the last trumpet we see that the kingdom of this world become the kingdom of our Lord. The Nations are angry because his wrath has come. Then we see reward to the Saints (Rapture). Then in Rev 14 we see Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers his from the earth. All this happens at the “last trump”, which is the 7th trumpet.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Lets look at 1 Thes 4:16-17. Notice the Lord descends from heaven with the trump of God (“last trump). We are caught up with them in the clouds. This is exaxtly what Rev 14 (last trump) shows us…Jesus comes in the clouds at the last trumpet and gathers his from the earth.


1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Lets look at Rev 20:4. Notice that this is called the 1st resurrection. This scripture places the 1st resurrection (rapture) after the mark of the beast. Which means, that there could not have been a resurrection (rapture) before the tribulation, since this is told to be the 1st and places this 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Lets look at 2 Thessalonians 2. The subject is the coming of Jesus and our gathering unto him. Notice that at this time the wicked will be revealed and the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
Use some common sense here.... If the wicked are destroyed at the brightness of his coming, then that could not happen at the beginning of the tribulation, otherwise there would be no tribulation (If the wicked were destroyed).


2 Thessalonians 2; 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, d Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

If you lay these scriptures out and look at them, it makes perfect sense that at the “last trump”, (which is the 7th trumpet) we see that Jesus comes in the clouds and the nations are angry because his wrath has come. Why would the Nations be angry, when Jesus comes in the clouds? Because 2 Thes 2 tells us that his coming is after the working of Satan and at that time the wicked are destroyed. Rev 11 tells us that the Nations are angry because his wrath has come. If we look further into the book of Revelation we see that they are destroyed in the vials which is called the wrath of God. (Rev 16).

Literalist-Luke
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:36 AM
He will not be revealed as such UNTIL after the Church is gone.As I said, even if the Rapture were Pre-Trib, that's not necessarily true. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that says the Church will never see the Antichrist. Not even from a pre-Trib point of view, which used to be my position. (But it ain't anymore.)

Literalist-Luke
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:39 AM
The anti-Christ comes at the beginning of the tribulation.
Jesus SAID (Matthew 24;29-31) that we will be gathered …“IMMEDIATLEY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Jesus answered your question…If the beast comes at the beginning of the tribulation and Jesus said we will be gathered AFTER the tribulation, then that means we will be here for the tribulation, because Jesus said we would.

Need more proof? 1 Cor 15:50-52 says All will be changed. All would have to include the trib-Saints.
It also says we will be changed at the "last trump" (remember the “last trump” because that is important).
Then it says at this time Death is swallowed up in victory. In order for death to be swallowed up in victory, then "Jesus Coming/Our Gathering" has to be at the end of the tribulation, because death is swallowed up at that time.

1 Cor 15 told us that ALL will be changed at the “last trump”.
Let’s look at the last trump, which is the 7th trumpet (Rev 11 & Rev 14).
At the last trumpet we see that the kingdom of this world become the kingdom of our Lord. The Nations are angry because his wrath has come. Then we see reward to the Saints (Rapture). Then in Rev 14 we see Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers his from the earth. All this happens at the “last trump”, which is the 7th trumpet.

Lets look at 1 Thes 4:16-17. Notice the Lord descends from heaven with the trump of God (“last trump). We are caught up with them in the clouds. This is exaxtly what Rev 14 (last trump) shows us…Jesus comes in the clouds at the last trumpet and gathers his from the earth.

Lets look at Rev 20:4. Notice that this is called the 1st resurrection. This scripture places the 1st resurrection (rapture) after the mark of the beast. Which means, that there could not have been a resurrection (rapture) before the tribulation, since this is told to be the 1st and places this 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast.

Lets look at 2 Thessalonians 2. The subject is the coming of Jesus and our gathering unto him. Notice that at this time the wicked will be revealed and the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
Use some common sense here.... If the wicked are destroyed at the brightness of his coming, then that could not happen at the beginning of the tribulation, otherwise there would be no tribulation (If the wicked were destroyed).

If you lay these scriptures out and look at them, it makes perfect sense that at the “last trump”, (which is the 7th trumpet) we see that Jesus comes in the clouds and the nations are angry because his wrath has come. Why would the Nations be angry, when Jesus comes in the clouds? Because 2 Thes 2 tells us that his coming is after the working of Satan and at that time the wicked are destroyed. Rev 11 tells us that the Nations are angry because his wrath has come. If we look further into the book of Revelation we see that they are destroyed in the vials which is called the wrath of God. (Rev 16).Excellent post - well done. :thumbsup:

My heart's Desire
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:56 AM
As I said, even if the Rapture were Pre-Trib, that's not necessarily true. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that says the Church will never see the Antichrist. Not even from a pre-Trib point of view, which used to be my position. (But it ain't anymore.) Oh but I think it does say. He is not revealed until such time. Now you said "see". Maybe we will see the one who will be the antichrist before he is revealed to the world as such... Pretrib or not, that could be possible....

Literalist-Luke
Oct 2nd 2008, 04:38 AM
Oh but I think it does say.Where at? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif
He is not revealed until such time. Now you said "see". Maybe we will see the one who will be the antichrist before he is revealed to the world as such... Pretrib or not, that could be possible....OK, I see what you're saying. I can go along with that. You're talking about when he sits in the temple and declares himself "god", like Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2. If the Rapture were Pre-Trib, then yes, I could go along with that. :yes:

third hero
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:49 AM
I noticed that someone else has used the Seven Trumpets of Woe as a reference to the Coming of the Lord. Let me say this:

The final trumpet is not at all connected to the seven trumpets of woe in Revelation. For more information as to why I say that, go to http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1366088&postcount=13 and find out.

Now to the Op. If the saints are to be attacked by the Beast, which it is stated in Revelation 13, then how can we not see the Beast before the Advent?

Mograce2U
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:28 PM
I noticed that someone else has used the Seven Trumpets of Woe as a reference to the Coming of the Lord. Let me say this:

The final trumpet is not at all connected to the seven trumpets of woe in Revelation. For more information as to why I say that, go to http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1366088&postcount=13 and find out.

Now to the Op. If the saints are to be attacked by the Beast, which it is stated in Revelation 13, then how can we not see the Beast before the Advent?Hi TH:

Have you seen this verse?

(Exo 19:16) And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

The 2 words I bolded are the same H6963 qowl.

My heart's Desire
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:28 AM
Where at? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gifOK, I see what you're saying. I can go along with that. You're talking about when he sits in the temple and declares himself "god", like Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2. If the Rapture were Pre-Trib, then yes, I could go along with that. :yes:Exactly. It states revealed but revealed as what? Revealed as a man first or as THE antichrist? I see you see!

dan
Oct 7th 2008, 03:31 AM
A question about the end-times...
When the anti-Christ comes, are we already whisked up to Heaven?

Another question: Are all Christians taken up to Heaven before these "challenges"? occur?

We will see him and experience his terroristic devices. May God have mercy on us all.:pray:

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 8th 2008, 10:50 PM
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10

These are the Master's Words..

Somebody please do a "word study"on the Greek word 'keep' and display that for all to see....

There is an Hour of Temptation coming to this earth.. the Master's Promise is that He will 'keep' His Own.. from that time period... that time period which shall 'try' or 'test' all the world and those that dwell on it...

Those He keeps are those who have 'kept' the Word of His Patience.... they are patient, longsuffering, enduring, persevering...

Study the word 'keep' in the Greek.. from there make ur many assumptions as to what it means..

Here is another of the Master's promises.. as penned thru the writings of Paul....

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:9

dan
Oct 10th 2008, 03:14 AM
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10

These are the Master's Words..

Somebody please do a "word study"on the Greek word 'keep' and display that for all to see....

There is an Hour of Temptation coming to this earth.. the Master's Promise is that He will 'keep' His Own.. from that time period... that time period which shall 'try' or 'test' all the world and those that dwell on it...

Those He keeps are those who have 'kept' the Word of His Patience.... they are patient, longsuffering, enduring, persevering...

Study the word 'keep' in the Greek.. from there make ur many assumptions as to what it means..

Here is another of the Master's promises.. as penned thru the writings of Paul....

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:9

...We will be kept from temptation: Dead people aren't tempted by anything.

IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

The Preacher
Oct 10th 2008, 03:24 AM
Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

The Revelation depicts "the saints" (i.e., the followers of Christ) as being persecuted. Absolutely nowhere in the Revelation are the Christians depicted as being "whisked away" to heaven prior to the rule of the beast and the persecution he instigates.


I agree.

1 Cor 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

vinsight4u8
Oct 11th 2008, 01:24 PM
Rev. 20:4-5 is when the people from the first resurrection take their seats to reign with Christ.

They were resurrected at the start of chapter 19.
at - salvation time
when the city of mystery, Babylon was punished

John doesn't write - and then I saw the dead of the just raised.
He says - they sat

Find out by using chapter 19 that they are the ones that fought as the army for God.

But note then - a bit back that when heaven opened - plural groups came from heaven.
armies

one - the saints that go to the battle - because they have yet to defeat the beast

the other army from heaven
the great tribulation martyrs
that died and defeated the beast
so - they need not go to the battle of Armageddon
and fight

so - they are referred to as
"lived and reigned"
because they already had victory over the beast - so sit out the battle of Armageddon

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 07:02 AM
I say yes there is a rapture but only after the tribulation and before the wrath of God is poured out, so technically I am a mid-tribulation rapture supporter.

So there will be some raptured and some martyred?

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 07:14 AM
Where at? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gifOK, I see what you're saying. I can go along with that. You're talking about when he sits in the temple and declares himself "god", like Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2. If the Rapture were Pre-Trib, then yes, I could go along with that. :yes:

Those which oppose his Satan's kingdom will be killed prior to the abomination of desolations......Note in verse 9 they are killed verse 15 "he" is revealed. Note in verse 16 it speaks of those in Judea.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So if the beast kills the saints then how will they not know of the AC?

The one which kills those in verse 9 will be the son of perdition the socalled AC. The abomination of desolations is the son of perdition now indwelt by Satan which stands in the holy place. So the AOD does not occur until after the 5th trumpet then we see in the following verses of Matt 24 the 6th and 7th.

Mark.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 07:33 AM
Those which oppose his Satan's kingdom will be killed prior to the abomination of desolations......Note in verse 9 they are killed verse 15 "he" is revealed. Note in verse 16 it speaks of those in Judea.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So if the beast kills the saints then how will they not know of the AC?

The one which kills those in verse 9 will be the son of perdition the socalled AC. The abomination of desolations is the son of perdition now indwelt by Satan which stands in the holy place. So the AOD does not occur until after the 5th trumpet then we see in the following verses of Matt 24 the 6th and 7th.

Mark.You're assuming that the Antichrist achieves a 100% kill ratio. That's very doubtful.

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 08:21 AM
You're assuming that the Antichrist achieves a 100% kill ratio. That's very doubtful.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Would "as many" be 100%?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 12:35 PM
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Would "as many" be 100%?Nope. :no:

Joe King
Oct 13th 2008, 05:42 AM
So there will be some raptured and some martyred?

Martyrdom before the rapture. I believe rapture happens at the end of the tribulation, but before the wrath.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 13th 2008, 06:41 AM
Martyrdom before the rapture. I believe rapture happens at the end of the tribulation, but before the wrath.Bingo. :thumbsup:

ross3421
Oct 14th 2008, 02:16 AM
Martyrdom before the rapture. I believe rapture happens at the end of the tribulation, but before the wrath.


So again what you are saying is that some are to be martyred while others which survive the trib are raptured??

Who is to be martryed and who is raptured?

Joe King
Oct 14th 2008, 05:03 AM
So again what you are saying is that some are to be martyred while others which survive the trib are raptured??

Who is to be martryed and who is raptured?

Yes. You got it.

Ethnikos
Oct 14th 2008, 05:40 AM
So again what you are saying is that some are to be martyred while others which survive the trib are raptured??
Who is to be martryed and who is raptured?
Christians will only be martyred as long as there are people who will be influenced, by their testimony, to leave the service of Satan.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 14th 2008, 07:49 AM
So again what you are saying is that some are to be martyred while others which survive the trib are raptured??

Who is to be martryed and who is raptured?The ones who are martyred will also be raptured.

I Thessalonians 4:16 - "The dead in Christ will rise first."

Mograce2U
Oct 14th 2008, 03:42 PM
The ones who are martyred will also be raptured.

I Thessalonians 4:16 - "The dead in Christ will rise first."And this quickening which is to bring the dead to life and the living also into permanent union with the Lord - was it to be a physical thing in the earth or a spiritual thing occurring in heaven? Or do you perhaps think Paul needed to explain this because it would not be something they would see with physical eyes? Something to think about when you consider that Paul, John and Phillip each experienced such a rapture - and none of them left the physical realm of this earth to be transported into heaven.

Also worth considering is this verse:

(Heb 9:8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Jesus tore the veil at the cross, but it was not then known that the heavens had been opened for men to enter in - until the temple came down.

ross3421
Oct 14th 2008, 04:44 PM
Yes. You got it.

How is it determined who is raptured alive while others are killed? Sorry, but I do not think God works this way......

The fact is that ALL will be killed.

ross3421
Oct 14th 2008, 04:46 PM
Christians will only be martyred as long as there are people who will be influenced, by their testimony, to leave the service of Satan.

Please explain your reasoning, thanks.

ross3421
Oct 14th 2008, 04:49 PM
The ones who are martyred will also be raptured.

I Thessalonians 4:16 - "The dead in Christ will rise first."

I agree that the dead are raptured to heaven ie resurrection. But you still believe there are those which are raptured without dying, correct?

I ask you when does the dead in Christ rise first?

DigReal
Oct 14th 2008, 10:50 PM
I thought I asked this before, but lost track of which tread so don't know of responses (really need to start writing stuff down):

If the Church is raptured at the end of the trib, and unbelievers are dealt with at the wrath, who is left to populate the millennium? :hmm:

Ethnikos
Oct 14th 2008, 11:45 PM
...who is left to populate the millennium?
No humans. That is what the rapture is. God's people go to Heaven. Satan is chained on the burnt-out earth with his angels.

Ethnikos
Oct 14th 2008, 11:54 PM
Please explain your reasoning, thanks.
God does not want to torture people for no good reason. What possible reason would there be for believers being martyred, if there was no chance that anyone would be convicted in their souls by witnessing it or knowing of it. It is the very last resort to finally get through to the final conversion. After that, there is no reason to prolong the suffering, and God will put a stop to it.

Mograce2U
Oct 15th 2008, 12:51 AM
God does not want to torture people for no good reason. What possible reason would there be for believers being martyred, if there was no chance that anyone would be convicted in their souls by witnessing it or knowing of it. It is the very last resort to finally get through to the final conversion. After that, there is no reason to prolong the suffering, and God will put a stop to it.The only reason I can think of for martyrs (witnesses) is that it puts the blood guilt where it belongs to bring sin to its fullness so judgment can come upon the perpetrators.

Ethnikos
Oct 15th 2008, 02:13 AM
The only reason I can think of for martyrs (witnesses) is that it puts the blood guilt where it belongs to bring sin to its fullness so judgment can come upon the perpetrators.
I always thought that was done at the Crucifixion. The guilt of the murder of Christ is transferable to everyone who does not accept him. There is no need for further condemnation. I think it would be mean for God to allow something that would only be redundant.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 02:36 AM
And this quickening which is to bring the dead to life and the living also into permanent union with the Lord - was it to be a physical thing in the earth or a spiritual thing occurring in heaven? Or do you perhaps think Paul needed to explain this because it would not be something they would see with physical eyes? Something to think about when you consider that Paul, John and Phillip each experienced such a rapture - and none of them left the physical realm of this earth to be transported into heaven.

Also worth considering is this verse:

(Heb 9:8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Jesus tore the veil at the cross, but it was not then known that the heavens had been opened for men to enter in - until the temple came down.Paul explained at length in I Corinthians that our new body would be just like Jesus' new body after His resurrection. And Jesus' new body was certainly just as physical as the apostles' bodies. Jesus was able to be seen, He was able to be touched, He ate food, He cooked at least one meal, He walked on the road to Emmaus, He broke bread......

Jesus was fully interactive with the physical world after His body was changed, and our new bodies will be no different. So says Paul in I Corinthians 15.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 02:37 AM
How is it determined who is raptured alive while others are killed?By whoever is still alive at the time. What's so complicated about that?
Sorry, but I do not think God works this way......The Apostle Paul disagrees with you and so do I.

My heart's Desire
Oct 15th 2008, 02:38 AM
I thought I asked this before, but lost track of which tread so don't know of responses (really need to start writing stuff down):

If the Church is raptured at the end of the trib, and unbelievers are dealt with at the wrath, who is left to populate the millennium? :hmm:
Same as pretrib rapture, those left to populate are the sheep of the sheep and Goat judgment.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 02:40 AM
I agree that the dead are raptured to heaven ie resurrection. But you still believe there are those which are raptured without dying, correct?I Thessalonians 4:17 - "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
I ask you when does the dead in Christ rise first?At the Rapture/2nd Coming, just after the Tribulation.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 02:40 AM
I thought I asked this before, but lost track of which tread so don't know of responses (really need to start writing stuff down):

If the Church is raptured at the end of the trib, and unbelievers are dealt with at the wrath, who is left to populate the millennium? :hmm:The unbelievers who survive the wrath.

Ethnikos
Oct 15th 2008, 04:39 AM
The unbelievers who survive the wrath.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


It sounds like all the wicked will be dead, at this point.

Joe King
Oct 15th 2008, 08:36 PM
I better not name names.