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herald
Oct 1st 2008, 02:10 AM
In Psalm 119, the word, "Word," is used interchangeably with, "law," "commandments," "judgments," "precepts," "statutes,"testimonies"...

His Word = His law.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27.

We have abused grace:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Ga 2:20.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:1.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

When Moses disobeyed the Lord and struck the rock, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed the Lord, they were not able to enter The Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

Disobedience = Unbelief
Obedience = Faith

Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."

"By faith Abraham...obeyed." Heb 11:8.

Jesus said, "Not every one that SAITH, Lord, Lord, shall enter (Rev 22:14) into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness) Mt 7:21-23.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the Truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth HIS WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby we do know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.

True faith obeys His every Word - His law. It is not what we SAY, but, what we DO.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:29 AM
In Psalm 119, the word, "Word," is used interchangeably with, "law," "commandments," "judgments," "precepts," "statutes,"testimonies"...

His Word = His law.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27.

We have abused grace:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Ga 2:20.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:1.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

When Moses disobeyed the Lord and struck the rock, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed the Lord, they were not able to enter The Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

Disobedience = Unbelief
Obedience = Faith

Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."

"By faith Abraham...obeyed." Heb 11:8.

Jesus said, "Not every one that SAITH, Lord, Lord, shall enter (Rev 22:14) into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness) Mt 7:21-23.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the Truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth HIS WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby we do know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.

True faith obeys His every Word - His law. It is not what we SAY, but, what we DO.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

So in the following Jesus was talking about that which was written/Gods word?

Lk 18:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Lk 24:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Thanks firstfruits

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:43 PM
We, certainly, cannot trust in the emotions of our own hearts to determine is we love God and others:

"Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death." Prov 7:25-27.

What does the Scripture say about loving God, and others?

Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

"By this we know that we love the children of God (Greatest Commandment #2), when we love God (#1) and keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

"And this is love that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6.

When we love Him, we want to obey Him.

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation, unto all them that obey Him." Heb 5:9.

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions ("of the law") from us...TO SUCH AS KEEP HIS COVENANT AND TO THOSE THAT REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS TO DO THEM." Ps. 103.

Covenants have conditions.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:59 PM
We, certainly, cannot trust in the emotions of our own hearts to determine is we love God and others:

"Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death." Prov 7:25-27.

What does the Scripture say about loving God, and others?

Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

"By this we know that we love the children of God (Greatest Commandment #2), when we love God (#1) and keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

"And this is love that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6.

When we love Him, we want to obey Him.

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation, unto all them that obey Him." Heb 5:9.

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions ("of the law") from us...TO SUCH AS KEEP HIS COVENANT AND TO THOSE THAT REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS TO DO THEM." Ps. 103.

Covenants have conditions.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

So if we refrain from that which God hates, are we abiding in his will?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:31 PM
If we love Him, we will obey Him.

You just quoted two of the commandments: "A lying tongue" (#9) witness), "hands that shed innocent blood" - (#6).

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandment Law. It was based upon the promise of the people. Ex 24:7. The New Covenant is based upon the promise of God:

"But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws in their inward parts, and write in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:34;Mt 26:28;Heb 8:10 - an internal Covenant.

WHO is He speaking of? Paul answers, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy seeds as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ." "And IF ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:16,29;26:5.

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Ga 3:7.

"For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, , and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28,29.

The promises were made through Abraham to the children of promise (Rom 9:6-8), who are justified by faith - whether Jew or Gentile. Eph 2:12,13;3:6. (Did you know, that there are 180 congregations of Messianic Jews in Israel?)

The Old Covenant was The Ten Commandment Covenant - the New Covenant is God engraving this Covenant in our hearts and minds.

Jesus took the commandments to the motive of the heart:

That is why Jesus said, if a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has, already, committed adultery with her in his heart. Or, if we are angry with our brother, without cause, we are in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:22,28.

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:38 PM
If we love Him, we will obey Him.

You just quoted two of the commandments: "A lying tongue" (#9) witness), "hands that shed innocent blood" - (#6).

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandment Law. It was based upon the promise of the people. Ex 24:7. The New Covenant is based upon the promise of God:

"But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws in their inward parts, and write in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:34;Mt 26:28;Heb 8:10 - an internal Covenant.

WHO is He speaking of? Paul answers, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy seeds as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ." "And IF ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:16,29;26:5.

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Ga 3:7.

"For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, , and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28,29.

The promises were made through Abraham to the children of promise (Rom 9:6-8), who are justified by faith - whether Jew or Gentile. Eph 2:12,13;3:6. (Did you know, that there are 180 congregations of Messianic Jews in Israel?)

The Old Covenant was The Ten Commandment Covenant - the New Covenant is God engraving this Covenant in our hearts and minds.

Jesus took the commandments to the motive of the heart:

That is why Jesus said, if a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has, already, committed adultery with her in his heart. Or, if we are angry with our brother, without cause, we are in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:22,28.

The question is if we refrain from that which the Lord hates are we abiding in his will?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:16 PM
We can't refrain from these sins in our own strength - it is by abiding in His Spirit, that we do not sin.

The new creation does not sin:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known (Mt 7:21-23) Him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose was the Son of God manifested, that He might destroy the works of the Devil.

Jesus died on the cross, to set us free from sin.

Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God..

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3.

It is when we fall back to the ways of the "old man" that we sin. When we walk in His Spirit, we do not sin.

The Apostle Paul told Timothy, ""I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience..." 2 Tim 1:3.

I serve Him with "pure conscience," and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal anything to me, if I am not, so that I can repent and be changed into His image.

joztok
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:22 PM
His Word = His law.


His Word = Jesus Christ who WROTE the Law and as Author put an end to it.



We have abused grace:

I don't know one Christian on earth who knows how to abuse God's grace even though none want to try- that's a good sign. I don't think any true Christian knows how or wants too.

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:23 PM
So if we abide in the Spirit we will refrain from that which God hates, would we then be abiding in Gods will?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Firstfruits

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:33 PM
Amen!:)

His Will is His Word - when we abide in His Word, we do not sin.

Actually, the Holy Spirit is called, the Spirit of Grace in Heb 10:29. When He abides within us, He fulfills the law through us. Jesus did not put an end to the Ten Commandment Covenant.

The Ceremonial Law pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus and was fulfilled: circumcision is now of the heart, washings are baptism, Jesus, the clean, became unclean, so that we may be clean. If the Ceremonial law had not been fulfilled, we would, still, sacrifice animals. The Passover Feast Days were fulfilled:

Passover: Our Passover Lamb
Unleavened Bread: He was without sin
Tabernacles: He "tabernacled among us"...

CEREMONIAL LAW:

1. Is called, "the law contained in ordinances." Eph 2:15
2. Was spoken by Moses. Lev 1:1-3
3. Was written by Moses in a book. 11 Chron 35:12
4. Was placed in the side of The Ark. (to show it's temporal nature)
5. Was nailed to the cross. Col 2:14
6. Was abolished by Christ. Eph 2:15.


THE TEN COMMANDMENT COVENANT:

1. Is called, the "royal law." Ja 2:8
2. Was spoken by God. Deut 4:12,13
3. Was written with the finger of God. Ex 31:18'
4. Was placed inside The Ark. Ex 40:20;Heb 9:4
5. Is to "stand forever and ever." Ps 111:7,8
6. Was not destroyed by Christ. Mt 5:17,18

The Ten Commandment Covenant deals with our character and is used by the Holy Spirit in our on-going process of sanctification.

Even in heaven, the Lord makes quite a statement about His Covenant:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple The Ark of His Testament: and there were LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." Rev 11:19.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:36 PM
His Word = Jesus Christ who WROTE the Law and as Author put an end to it.

Scripture please.

I
don't know one Christian on earth who knows how to abuse God's grace even though none want to try- that's a good sign. I don't think any true Christian knows how or wants too.

I'll remember that the next time my Christian legislator signs another bill to terminate one of God's creations.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:40 PM
So if we abide in the Spirit we will refrain from that which God hates, would we then be abiding in Gods will?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Firstfruits

How many people refrain from doing what God hates?

Eze 20:16 because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.


How many Christians use the blood of Yeshua as an excuse to do or not do what God hates?

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 04:12 PM
Dr. R.C. Sproul was the one, who spoke about Psalm 119, referring to the "Word," as "The law,""commandments," "judgments," "precepts," "statutes," "testimonies.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. BUT WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected..." 1 John 2:3-5.

Here, again, the commandments are interchanged with His Word.

What did Jesus use in the wilderness to fight the Devil - The Scripture. Mt 4:4,7,10.

"And take the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Eph 6:17.

"For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12.

2 Tim 3:16 in the Greek says, "Every Scripture is God breathed..."

Our Creator spoke the worlds into existence. Heb 11:3.

The first challenge to the Word of God, was in the Garden of Eden: Satan queried, "Hath God said?"

We are born again by His Word: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." 1 Pet 1:23;Ja 1:18;John 15:3;Eph 5:25,26.

Obeying His Word keeps us from sin: "Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee." Ps 119:11.

His Word Guides us: "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Ps 119:105;67;103.

His Word is bread to our spirit: Jesus said, "It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, bu by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Mt 4:4.

Faith comes by His Word: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Rom 10:17.

The Roman Centurion...said...but, speak the Word, only, and my servant shall be healed." Mt 8:8.

Healing and Deliverance come by His Word: "He sent His Word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions." Ps 107:20.

Those who obey God's Word are more blessed than Mary: "...a certain woman...said unto Him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee and the paps which thou hast sucked." But He (Jesus) said, Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the Word of God and keep it." Lu 11:27,28.

We are to tremble at His Word: "...but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My Word." Isa 66:2.

We are to search the Scriptures to verify what we are taught: "The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received The Word with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily, whether those things wer so." Acts 17:11.

The Disciples spoke the Word of God: "...ye received the Word of God, which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God..." 1 Thess 2:13.

Men are martyred for the Word of God: "And when He had opened the fifth sea. I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God..." Rev 6:9.

But, most significant is, that, Jesus is the Word of God: John 1:1.Rev 19:13:

"And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD." Rev 19:13.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 04:16 PM
His commandments give us a glimse of His character. That's why He is the 'Living Word."

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 04:35 PM
Amen!:)

HE IS THE WORD OF GOD. John 1:1; Rev 19:13. God's entire message to His people.

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:27 PM
But who can have an understanding of the law by merely focusing on the law?... The Jews made that mistake and by that they missed their Messiah.. but they will find that one day praise the Lord... but, it's the same thing as reading the Bible and missing God... there are many Chrisitans out there who's God is a book and their own logic and they have no prophetic anointing and cannot hear the voice of God and sadly cannot discern the signs of the times... so a focus on intimacy with the Lord is paramount to keeping the whole of the word of God... amen?

Emanate
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:46 PM
But who can have an understanding of the law by merely focusing on the law?... The Jews made that mistake and by that they missed their Messiah..


I would disagree almost 100%. Focusing on the Law merely points to Messiah. Judaism in the first century had already pulled away from the Law and were leaning more towards Rabbinic Authority, which superceded the Law in many aspects. It was not the Law that made them miss Messiah, it was their intepretation and tradition that blinded them.

Luke 16
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:48 PM
Our focus is to be on the Word of God - which is His law. That is why He gave us His Word, so that we might know what He wants of us.

As I stated in Ezek 36:26,27, when His Spirit is within us, He fulfills the law through us - if we walk in His Spirit.

The old man is to be crucified with Christ (Ga 2:20) so that the new man might be set free.

Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him, THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY." John 12:48.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "For as many as have sinned withut law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED." Rom 2:12,13.

Even though Abraham was justified by faith, He kept the law: "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Gen 26:4,5.

And, here we see again, the same Words that Jesus spoke in Mt 7:21-23. Not hearers - but doers.

Do you want His Word to judge you? or, do you want to hear Him say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant?"

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:58 PM
Yes, it was tradition that blinded the Jews, and tradition that blinds many Christians.

The Lord speaks of the Catholic/Protestant religious system as "The Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE that ye be not partakers of her sins ("the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4), and that ye receive not of HER PLAGUES (interesting).

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (lawlessness) Rev 18:4,5.

How do we "Come out?" By doing as the Bereans: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

Our allegiance must be to His Word, above and beyond any denomination.

drew
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:17 PM
I would disagree almost 100%. Focusing on the Law merely points to Messiah. Judaism in the first century had already pulled away from the Law and were leaning more towards Rabbinic Authority, which superceded the Law in many aspects. It was not the Law that made them miss Messiah, it was their intepretation and tradition that blinded them.
Reading the following from Paul seems to suggest that the Jews did indeed "stumble" over the Torah:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame

Paul is not saying that the Jews were trying to attain righteousness by general "good works". He is talking about the works of Torah here. There is a strong case that the "stumbling stone" here is indeed both the Torah and the Messiah.

I see your argument and it sounds plausible but I do not think it is consistent with the picture Paul paints in Romans 5,7,9 and 11. And I think that picture is one where the Torah is the thing that the Jew has stumbled over and therefore missed the Messiah.

There are lengthy arguments to fill this in, but I won't give them in this post.

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:30 PM
The question is if we refrain from that which the Lord hates are we abiding in his will?
Not necessarily. The Lord's will is also positive - not just abstention.


So if we abide in the Spirit we will refrain from that which God hates, would we then be abiding in Gods will?

It's a start.
Now that Jesus has come, we can't even begin to abide in His will until, we are born of the Holy Spirit and remain/abide in the Spirit.
As a result we begin the continual task of moving toward the always future goal of total obedience, love, forgiveness, and abstention from sin through His power and Word.
The more we allow Him to cleanse our attitudes and motives, we become better equipped to show/bring the message of His love and forgiveness to others.

By being on that path, seeking to know God more fully, seeking that which pleases HIM, and pressing on, we are abiding in God's will.

Then we begin to obey the law by the Spirit and not by the letter.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:53 PM
But who can have an understanding of the law by merely focusing on the law?... The Jews made that mistake and by that they missed their Messiah.. but they will find that one day praise the Lord... but, it's the same thing as reading the Bible and missing God... there are many Chrisitans out there who's God is a book and their own logic and they have no prophetic anointing and cannot hear the voice of God and sadly cannot discern the signs of the times... so a focus on intimacy with the Lord is paramount to keeping the whole of the word of God... amen?

I humbly disagree with some of this, though I do understand the thought. The mistake (and I wouldn't put all Jews in the category, and certainly wouldn't exclude all Christians from this category) is worshipping the Torah, (or grace for Christians), and not the living God behind it. The mistake was and is the focus on the externals without (not instead of) focus on the internals.

Obedience is an action wrought by salvation. God did not sanctify the Hebrews before He saved them from Egypt - they were already free when Torah was given. God did not free them because they followed Torah, He freed them because of His grace (undeserved favor). Yeshua rescues us from Egypt (bondage of the world) also. Not becuase we follow Torah, but because of the same grace He poured out on the Hebrews in Egypt - undeserved favor. The issue most Christians have is with sanctification. They are so drunk with freedom from sin, they forgot about walking in His image as He desires, not as we desire.

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:05 PM
When we obey His Word - His law, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can have a pure conscience. Yes, the only way we can walk in His Word, is when we are born again, and have His Spirit within us, to enable us to obey Him.

That is what walking in the light is all about.

When Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deut 6:5;Lev 19:18.

If you keep the first four, you will demonstrate love for God. If you keep the last six, you demonstrate love for others.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:21 PM
"Law" is a poor definition and puts God in a box. God's Torah is more than just a set of commands and rules to follow like a zombie. Torah has intent, part of which is to show we cannot live up to even a slideshow of God's character, let alone live in it righteously. The only way we can accept the parden of Yeshua is to confess our guilt. If we don't know what we are guilty of, that we have no hope what-so-ever, then we can't accept the pardon in earnest.

Just because we are saved through Yeshua doesn't mean we ignore walking in God's character, conforming to His image. His image is clearly defined in Torah, not in the conglomeration of rules, but in the intent.

God wants us holy, set apart from the world He freed us in through Yeshua. If we look around us and we can't tell the difference between us and and an unbeliever in what we do, what we think, how we dress, what we consider food and how we love God and each other, than we aren't sanctified in the way God desires. Our outward actions are a relection of our inward heart condition.

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:26 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:pp

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:33 PM
Amen!:)

His Will is His Word - when we abide in His Word, we do not sin.

Actually, the Holy Spirit is called, the Spirit of Grace in Heb 10:29. When He abides within us, He fulfills the law through us. Jesus did not put an end to the Ten Commandment Covenant.

The Ceremonial Law pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus and was fulfilled: circumcision is now of the heart, washings are baptism, Jesus, the clean, became unclean, so that we may be clean. If the Ceremonial law had not been fulfilled, we would, still, sacrifice animals. The Passover Feast Days were fulfilled:

Passover: Our Passover Lamb
Unleavened Bread: He was without sin
Tabernacles: He "tabernacled among us"...

CEREMONIAL LAW:

1. Is called, "the law contained in ordinances." Eph 2:15
2. Was spoken by Moses. Lev 1:1-3
3. Was written by Moses in a book. 11 Chron 35:12
4. Was placed in the side of The Ark. (to show it's temporal nature)
5. Was nailed to the cross. Col 2:14
6. Was abolished by Christ. Eph 2:15.


THE TEN COMMANDMENT COVENANT:

1. Is called, the "royal law." Ja 2:8
2. Was spoken by God. Deut 4:12,13
3. Was written with the finger of God. Ex 31:18'
4. Was placed inside The Ark. Ex 40:20;Heb 9:4
5. Is to "stand forever and ever." Ps 111:7,8
6. Was not destroyed by Christ. Mt 5:17,18

The Ten Commandment Covenant deals with our character and is used by the Holy Spirit in our on-going process of sanctification.

Even in heaven, the Lord makes quite a statement about His Covenant:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple The Ark of His Testament: and there were LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." Rev 11:19.

Since by not doing that which God hates by abiding in the Spirit we are in Gods will, what more can we do if we already have access to heaven by being in his will, with regards to what you have written?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:41 PM
When we obey His Word - His law, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can have a pure conscience. Yes, the only way we can walk in His Word, is when we are born again, and have His Spirit within us, to enable us to obey Him.

That is what walking in the light is all about.

When Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deut 6:5;Lev 19:18.

If you keep the first four, you will demonstrate love for God. If you keep the last six, you demonstrate love for others.

Are you saying that by being obedient to God by his spirit according to the following that we are not complete, with the understanding that it was because of disobedience that to what he hates that the law was given in the first place?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:50 PM
Reading the following from Paul seems to suggest that the Jews did indeed "stumble" over the Torah:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame

Paul is not saying that the Jews were trying to attain righteousness by general "good works". He is talking about the works of Torah here. There is a strong case that the "stumbling stone" here is indeed both the Torah and the Messiah.

I see your argument and it sounds plausible but I do not think it is consistent with the picture Paul paints in Romans 5,7,9 and 11. And I think that picture is one where the Torah is the thing that the Jew has stumbled over and therefore missed the Messiah.

There are lengthy arguments to fill this in, but I won't give them in this post.


But I would like to point out that is was works, not the law that caused them to stumble. The Law was never given to attain righteousness. It was Judaism that, by their tradition, that made the Law into a works based system for righteousness.

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:55 PM
Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments , and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of MyFather, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

When we obey His commandments, Jesus and the Father will love us.

Sounds pretty simple to me.

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:01 PM
Again, Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."

"Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father, JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith made perfect?

And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD (faith), and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God...For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2

The Lord commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham was ready to obey His voice (His Word).

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:02 PM
Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments , and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of MyFather, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

When we obey His commandments, Jesus and the Father will love us.

Sounds pretty simple to me.

But if you have already done that are his commands not fulfilled?

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:08 PM
Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments , and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of MyFather, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

When we obey His commandments, Jesus and the Father will love us.

Sounds pretty simple to me.

It's pretty simple until one discover's they have to surrender their will. Then all of the sudden, it's abolished.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:09 PM
But if you have already done that are his commands not fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Are you saying we should just do something so it can be fulfilled? What about living it?

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:19 PM
Are you saying we should just do something so it can be fulfilled? What about living it?

well the 'love tests' in 1 John are a sign of your love for God... it's a matter of genuine love for God... if you say you love God and hate your brother... you are a liar... if you really loved God you would love the things he loves... and he died for mankind... so if you reject your brother whom God accepts it's a sign that you really don't love God... the second commandment should ALWAYS be an outflow of your love for God... i absolutely cannot love you by my own efforts... i need the love of God to love you... so in the end it all goes back to intimacy with God and your actions and life being an outflow of that

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:21 PM
We have tests every day...

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:21 PM
I would disagree almost 100%. Focusing on the Law merely points to Messiah. Judaism in the first century had already pulled away from the Law and were leaning more towards Rabbinic Authority, which superceded the Law in many aspects. It was not the Law that made them miss Messiah, it was their intepretation and tradition that blinded them.

Luke 16
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


well that's not really a part of this discussion... it was only a filler... and you're right... they missed the purpose of the law... by focusing on the law and their own efforts to keep the law and find God on their own... so in a way i'm right and you're right at the same time....

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:23 PM
I humbly disagree with some of this, though I do understand the thought. The mistake (and I wouldn't put all Jews in the category, and certainly wouldn't exclude all Christians from this category) is worshipping the Torah, (or grace for Christians), and not the living God behind it. The mistake was and is the focus on the externals without (not instead of) focus on the internals.

Obedience is an action wrought by salvation. God did not sanctify the Hebrews before He saved them from Egypt - they were already free when Torah was given. God did not free them because they followed Torah, He freed them because of His grace (undeserved favor). Yeshua rescues us from Egypt (bondage of the world) also. Not becuase we follow Torah, but because of the same grace He poured out on the Hebrews in Egypt - undeserved favor. The issue most Christians have is with sanctification. They are so drunk with freedom from sin, they forgot about walking in His image as He desires, not as we desire.

you said it about 1000 times better than i wanted to say it... thank you for overlooking the error and seeing the good... it's good to see something like that here... that's encouraging

i totally agree with your statement... the Jews made the biggest boo boo when they said that they would do whatever he said when that's not the point of the law... the law is a testament of God's righteousness always has been and always will be... and man has never nor will he be able to keep the whole of the law... James 2:10 says if you even break one of them you're guilty of all.. so it's a testament of God's total righteousness and man's total UNrighteousness and it only serves us in the means that we need someone to make us righteous and we need to know the one who gave such righteous commandments...

we need the heart of David who fell in love with God by meditating on his judgements... now David was not able to keep the law, but his love for God gave him a love for the law and the meditation on the law gave him revelation of God and the Messiah that would descend from him... we miss out so much on the law because of our assumption that just because we don't have to keep it we have no need for it... that was never supposed to be the case... never never never... without the law we wouldn't know God...

Emanate
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:23 PM
they missed the purpose of the law... by focusing on the law and their own efforts to keep the law and find God on their own...

That is agreeable, 100%

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:23 PM
We cannot keep His law in our own strength. He fulfilled the law, and with His Spirit within us, we can too.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:25 PM
well the 'love tests' in 1 John are a sign of your love for God... it's a matter of genuine love for God... if you say you love God and hate your brother... you are a liar... if you really loved God you would love the things he loves... and he died for mankind... so if you reject your brother whom God accepts it's a sign that you really don't love God... the second commandment should ALWAYS be an outflow of your love for God... i absolutely cannot love you by my own efforts... i need the love of God to love you... so in the end it all goes back to intimacy with God and your actions and life being an outflow of that

Amen and praise Adonai !

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:31 PM
this is a rather stimulating discussion... i am enjoying the things i'm reading... so just a hearty thank you to all...

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:38 PM
we need the heart of David who fell in love with God by meditating on his judgements... now David was not able to keep the law, but his love for God gave him a love for the law and the meditation on the law gave him revelation of God and the Messiah that would descend from him... we miss out so much on the law because of our assumption that just because we don't have to keep it we have no need for it... that was never supposed to be the case... never never never... without the law we wouldn't know God...

If God's grace and mercy could cover David, then we're all in good shape, I should think. What a nasty fellow, David. Horrible father, terrible husband, in all regards a real jerk. It's amazing to read and meditate on what God did with him. Man, if someone ever says they're too far gone for God's mercy and grace, just read up on David.

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:41 PM
If God's grace and mercy could cover David, then we're all in good shape, I should think. What a nasty fellow, David. Horrible father, terrible husband, in all regards a real jerk. It's amazing to read and meditate on what God did with him. Man, if someone ever says they're too far gone for God's mercy and grace, just read up on David.

yet somehow this man's testimony in heaven is that he was a man after God's own heart... this makes me want to jump for joy and scream... I CAN MAKE IT!!!!! and another thing about David that impressed me was the depth of his relationship with God that he could trust him with everything... amazing

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:52 PM
That was because David repented...and God loves repentance.

timmyb
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:08 PM
That was because David repented...and God loves repentance.

and he delights in mercy... says Micah 7:18... i know that's a bit OT for you guys... but i like it anyway :lol:

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:38 PM
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Mt 5:7.

RoadWarrior
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:49 PM
Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments , and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of MyFather, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

When we obey His commandments, Jesus and the Father will love us.

Sounds pretty simple to me.


Hi Herald, how is the weather in Sacto?

I just wanted to jump in on this to make a little bit of a re-statement of your position above. Jesus and the Father do not love us because we obey the commandments, but because we love Jesus. Our love for Him is shown in the fact that we are knowing and keeping the commandments. Also, we love God because He first loved us. The story is about the love that flows between us. The obedience is the evidence of our love for Him.

Sounds like an argument in semantics perhaps, but it really is about whether the horse is pulling the cart or the cart is pushing the horse. So to speak.

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:59 PM
Hi Herald, how is the weather in Sacto?

I just wanted to jump in on this to make a little bit of a re-statement of your position above. Jesus and the Father do not love us because we obey the commandments, but because we love Jesus. Our love for Him is shown in the fact that we are knowing and keeping the commandments. Also, we love God because He first loved us. The story is about the love that flows between us. The obedience is the evidence of our love for Him.

Sounds like an argument in semantics perhaps, but it really is about whether the horse is pulling the cart or the cart is pushing the horse. So to speak.

I just wanted to point out that God loved me way before I loved Yeshua. He reached into my heart and revealed Messiah. He revealed to me that I am broken. I don't even know how to really love Him by my own efforts. All I had to do was repent and trust in Him. God did the rest. :)

herald
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:19 PM
Jesus loves everyone, but, He said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15. When we hear His Word, we choose to obey or not.

The weather is great!

RoadWarrior
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:29 PM
Jesus loves everyone, but, He said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15. When we hear His Word, we choose to obey or not.

The weather is great!

Our love from and for God and Jesus is reflected in our marriage relationships. Love is the motivation for the behaviors.

In marriage, if we love our spouse, we do the things that we know are pleasing to him/her. Neglecting to do so quickly causes problems in the marriage. Just so with God. If we ignore Him and treat Him as if His desires are unimportant, then our spiritual relationship with Him soon has problems!

So you are absolutely right. We choose how we treat our spouse, and we choose whether or not we will obey God. In both cases, we reap the consequences.

timmyb
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:25 AM
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Mt 5:7.


it's easy to be merciful... but how many people actually like to do it.... me i hate having to like having mercy on others

RoadWarrior
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:40 AM
it's easy to be merciful... but how many people actually like to do it.... me i hate having to like having mercy on others

Good point. Generally we would rather have our vengeance, or at least a good "I told you so!" attitude. It is hard, hard, hard sometimes to extend the mercy we would want if the shoe were on the other foot.

By the graciousness of God, we have many opportunities to practice compassion for others.

Like good athletes, the more we practice, the more skillfully we are able to do it ...

herald
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:59 AM
If we want mercy for ourselves, we have no choice, but, to be merciful.

What bugs me is all the people on the road who change lanes without signaling or don't even look in their side mirror.

That is why I pray for our family every day, that, the Lord will keep us from car accidents. I guess the hardest place for me to show mercy is on the road.

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 07:51 AM
Are you saying we should just do something so it can be fulfilled? What about living it?

If we are abiding in the Spirit and not doing those things that caused God to give the law to Israel in the first place, are we not living it?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

What makes us righteous or unrighteous in the sight of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 07:55 AM
I just wanted to point out that God loved me way before I loved Yeshua. He reached into my heart and revealed Messiah. He revealed to me that I am broken. I don't even know how to really love Him by my own efforts. All I had to do was repent and trust in Him. God did the rest. :)

How did you address those things that God hates after Messiah was revealed to you?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:58 PM
If we are abiding in the Spirit and not doing those things that caused God to give the law to Israel in the first place, are we not living it?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

What makes us righteous or unrighteous in the sight of God?

Firstfruits

It's not 'what' makes us righteous, it's 'Who' makes us righteous before the Father. We belong to Yeshua, and He makes us righteous before the Father. But does that mean we don't have to be obedient to God's Word?

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 06:23 PM
It's not 'what' makes us righteous, it's 'Who' makes us righteous before the Father. We belong to Yeshua, and He makes us righteous before the Father. But does that mean we don't have to be obedient to God's Word?

According to scripture there are two types of righteousness, which one are you referring to concerning obedience to Gods word?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:11 PM
According to scripture there are two types of righteousness, which one are you referring to concerning obedience to Gods word?

Firstfruits


what are the two types of righteousness?

timmyb
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:23 PM
If we are abiding in the Spirit and not doing those things that caused God to give the law to Israel in the first place, are we not living it?

Prov 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

What makes us righteous or unrighteous in the sight of God?

Firstfruits

i think Israel's screw up was the other way around... they were not abiding in him but doing the law and in their minds they were what they were because they did... that is not the gospel... the gospel is be and do out of being...

keck553
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:11 PM
According to scripture there are two types of righteousness, which one are you referring to concerning obedience to Gods word?

Firstfruits

not self-righteousness.

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 12:38 PM
what are the two types of righteousness?

Keck has mentioned one and the other is the righteousness of God.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 12:48 PM
not self-righteousness.

What do you think Paul meant in the following scriptures regarding both types?

Phil 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phil 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phil 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Thank you

Firstfruits

Emanate
Oct 4th 2008, 01:57 PM
What do you think Paul meant in the following scriptures regarding both types?

Phil 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phil 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phil 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Thank you

Firstfruits

I am sure we can agree that one of those is a false self righteousness, which is not righteousness at all.

RoadWarrior
Oct 4th 2008, 03:49 PM
What do you think Paul meant in the following scriptures regarding both types?

Phil 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phil 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phil 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Thank you

Firstfruits

In this little letter from Paul, we see that he is quite clear on the difference in himself, before Christ and after Christ intervened in his life.

Paul was religious to the uttermost in his faith. He zealously did what he thought was right. He rigorously followed the law, and saw himself blameless in the letter of that obedience.

But Paul was changed dramatically by his encounter with Jesus. Blinded by the light, he had time to consider that his actions before had been those of a blind man. Thinking that he saw the righteousness in what he was doing, he had pursued it zealously. Now he is able to truly "see" with his mind's eye, that in fact he had been like a blind man, groping for that which he thought was pleasing to God.

His bodily vision was restored, but more importantly, his spiritual vison was corrected. Paul did not cease to be zealous and did not cease seeking to be righteous, but those characteristics were now being applied correctly, not to making himself glorious and worthy of praise, but to pointing everyone to the glorious Lord of creation.

Everything we do, even our lives, are mere copies of that which is in the heavenlies.

That righteousness which is of God, is perfect and complete. The righteousness of man, even at our best, is imperfect, incomplete, shabby.

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 06:51 PM
In this little letter from Paul, we see that he is quite clear on the difference in himself, before Christ and after Christ intervened in his life.

Paul was religious to the uttermost in his faith. He zealously did what he thought was right. He rigorously followed the law, and saw himself blameless in the letter of that obedience.

But Paul was changed dramatically by his encounter with Jesus. Blinded by the light, he had time to consider that his actions before had been those of a blind man. Thinking that he saw the righteousness in what he was doing, he had pursued it zealously. Now he is able to truly "see" with his mind's eye, that in fact he had been like a blind man, groping for that which he thought was pleasing to God.

His bodily vision was restored, but more importantly, his spiritual vison was corrected. Paul did not cease to be zealous and did not cease seeking to be righteous, but those characteristics were now being applied correctly, not to making himself glorious and worthy of praise, but to pointing everyone to the glorious Lord of creation.

Everything we do, even our lives, are mere copies of that which is in the heavenlies.

That righteousness which is of God, is perfect and complete. The righteousness of man, even at our best, is imperfect, incomplete, shabby.

Was pauls message the same regarding Gods righteousness in the following?

Rom 10:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 04:44 PM
What's that got to do with renewing our minds and conforming to His image? Our inner being, our Spiirt is made righteous through Yeshua, however our outer being remains corrupt. No matter what we do with our outer being, it cannot bring to life our inner spirit, making it Holy and righteous before God. What springs up in our inner being should change our outer, corrupt being closer to the image of Messiah. That's not an attempt to 'make' the outer being righteous, it's merely the result of The Holy Spirit prevailing in the spiritual battle.

Notice that only believers are engaged in this battle. No one, but no one is without this struggle, once our spiritual core is re-connected with The Spirit of God.

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 06:39 PM
What's that got to do with renewing our minds and conforming to His image? Our inner being, our Spiirt is made righteous through Yeshua, however our outer being remains corrupt. No matter what we do with our outer being, it cannot bring to life our inner spirit, making it Holy and righteous before God. What springs up in our inner being should change our outer, corrupt being closer to the image of Messiah. That's not an attempt to 'make' the outer being righteous, it's merely the result of The Holy Spirit prevailing in the spiritual battle.

Notice that only believers are engaged in this battle. No one, but no one is without this struggle, once our spiritual core is re-connected with The Spirit of God.

How does the following affect our righteousness regarding works of righteousness?

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What does it mean to follow after righteousness?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Oct 6th 2008, 06:47 PM
Notice that only believers are engaged in this battle. No one, but no one is without this struggle, once our spiritual core is re-connected with The Spirit of God.

Well, honestly, only believers are going to experience this. Before that we didn't belong to Christ and were no threat to the enemy. Those who don't believe don't experience the spiritual battle that Christians do.

That is a given.

Our spiritual core?? It's our whole selves made new, dead to the flesh and alive to Christ. Renewal of the mind and spirit, conformed to His likeness. It's not just a spiritual core keck, it's a total transformation of lifestyle. A new life alltogether that we are called to live. It's more than a reconnection. Sounds a bit metaphysical to me.

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 06:56 PM
Well, honestly, only believers are going to experience this. Before that we didn't belong to Christ and were no threat to the enemy. Those who don't believe don't experience the spiritual battle that Christians do.

That is a given.

Amem, and thank God.


Our spiritual core?? It's our whole selves made new, dead to the flesh and alive to Christ. Renewal of the mind and spirit, conformed to His likeness. It's not just a spiritual core keck, it's a total transformation of lifestyle. A new life alltogether that we are called to live. It's more than a reconnection. Sounds a bit metaphysical to me.

Perhaps I worded it wrong. I was using the term for illustration only. Our flesh is decaying threbigrocks, and it will die. It's the 'seen' thing Paul is talking about. The unseen things are our minds, our soul's and our will that are separated from God until and unless we trust in Messiah and believe His Gospel. God has made a way for the dead spirit of man to 'plug in' to the Spirit of God, and come alive. The way is Yeshua. And this is when the battle begins. Maybe I can't say it correctly in words. I think I can do better on a white board.

threebigrocks
Oct 7th 2008, 04:01 PM
Perhaps I worded it wrong. I was using the term for illustration only. Our flesh is decaying threbigrocks, and it will die. It's the 'seen' thing Paul is talking about. The unseen things are our minds, our soul's and our will that are separated from God until and unless we trust in Messiah and believe His Gospel. God has made a way for the dead spirit of man to 'plug in' to the Spirit of God, and come alive. The way is Yeshua. And this is when the battle begins. Maybe I can't say it correctly in words. I think I can do better on a white board.

That does make more sense. :) We are all appointed to die once, that is a certainty.