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oscarkipling
Oct 1st 2008, 05:39 AM
well, are they?

Tanya~
Oct 1st 2008, 05:59 AM
Catholicism is a religion that resembles Christianity, somewhat like the Judaism of Jesus' day resembled what God had given to the children of Israel through Moses. What happened in both cases was that over the course of time a number of traditions were added to what God had given to the point where tradition sometimes trumped the word of God. Jesus gives one example here:


Mark 7:9-13
He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother,"Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" — '(that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
NKJV

The Christian faith really is a simple thing. But the Catholic religion has added much to that simple faith, even in some cases to the point of contradicting it. For just one example, idolatry is forbidden for Christians:


2 Cor 6:16
6 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
NKJV

1 John 5:21
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
NKJV

Yet the Catholic church is full of idols: images of Mary, saints, Jesus, the sacred heart, etc. etc.

Catholicism resembles Christianity but is quite a distance from the Biblical faith. A person who follows the Catholic religion then, is not following Biblical Christianity. They are still called Christians in the world because that word "Christian" has come to encompass more than the Biblical faith. It means different things to different people.

oscarkipling
Oct 1st 2008, 06:19 AM
Catholicism is a religion that resembles Christianity, somewhat like the Judaism of Jesus' day resembled what God had given to the children of Israel through Moses. What happened in both cases was that over the course of time a number of traditions were added to what God had given to the point where tradition sometimes trumped the word of God. Jesus gives one example here:

Mark 7:9-13
He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother,"Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" — '(that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
NKJV
The Christian faith really is a simple thing. But the Catholic religion has added much to that simple faith, even in some cases to the point of contradicting it. For just one example, idolatry is forbidden for Christians:

2 Cor 6:16
6 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
NKJV

1 John 5:21
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
NKJV
Yet the Catholic church is full of idols: images of Mary, saints, Jesus, the sacred heart, etc. etc.

Catholicism resembles Christianity but is quite a distance from the Biblical faith. A person who follows the Catholic religion then, is not following Biblical Christianity. They are still called Christians in the world because that word "Christian" has come to encompass more than the Biblical faith. It means different things to different people.

always helpful Tanya, thanks

Tanya~
Oct 1st 2008, 06:21 AM
You're welcome Oscar, was this something new to you?

oscarkipling
Oct 1st 2008, 06:30 AM
You're welcome Oscar, was this something new to you?

well, everything I know about Catholicism comes from that movie Stigmata:lol:, well that's not the whole truth but still, I did think they were just another flavor of Christian...or more precisely I didn't know that other Christians didn't consider them Christians.

Tanya~
Oct 1st 2008, 06:41 AM
:lol: Very funny.

But it's not all that far off the mark. It's pretty amazing how much the media affects our perception of things. But to really find out what is Christian, the source is the Bible and everything has to be compared to that.

Richard H
Oct 1st 2008, 09:03 AM
Hi Oscar,
’Hope things are going well for you.
I see you’re still asking questions. J

There’s a thread about comparing RC, Orthodox and Anglican.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=140507&page=3 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=140507&page=3)
You can read some more about the differences there.

[Taking deep breath.]
Roman Catholicism has most of the doctrinal statements, but it’s clouded up with: Mary veneration/worship (some even seeing her as co-redemptrix), statue veneration, praying to dead saints instead of God, no emphasis on the reading of Scripture by lay people (not priests or nuns), the total authority of the church to dictate beliefs and forgive sins, the belief in Purgatory (where one goes after death to be purified enough to be let into Heaven – thus negating the sufficiency of what Jesus did on the cross), the newly revived practice of indulgences (gifts/pilgrimages)(historically before the sin) - to reduce time in Purgatory, salvation through participation in the Eucharist (bread) in addition to the other sacraments: Baptism, Reconciliation, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing the Sick (Used to be “Last Rites”), and the church's assertion that she is the earthly mediator between God and man.
[Whew!]

'All that aside, when asked about how they will get to Heaven, most Catholics will say that they are good people (they are) and they go to Sunday Mass and receive Communion.

Most would not respond that Jesus died for their sins and they are forgiven because they’ve made Him Lord in their lives.

So to answer your question:
They have the label, but there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table.

Richard

PS: I almost forgot - not teaching the 2nd Commandment about graven images (because of the statues), and dividing the 10th Commandment into two to fill in the empty slot.

oscarkipling
Oct 1st 2008, 10:55 AM
Hi Oscar,
’Hope things are going well for you.
I see you’re still asking questions. J

There’s a thread about comparing RC, Orthodox and Anglican.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=140507&page=3 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=140507&page=3)
You can read some more about the differences there.

[Taking deep breath.]
Roman Catholicism has most of the doctrinal statements, but it’s clouded up with: Mary veneration/worship (some even seeing her as co-redemptrix), statue veneration, praying to dead saints instead of God, no emphasis on the reading of Scripture by lay people (not priests or nuns), the total authority of the church to dictate beliefs and forgive sins, the belief in Purgatory (where one goes after death to be purified enough to be let into Heaven – thus negating the sufficiency of what Jesus did on the cross), the newly revived practice of indulgences (gifts/pilgrimages)(historically before the sin) - to reduce time in Purgatory, salvation through participation in the Eucharist (bread) in addition to the other sacraments: Baptism, Reconciliation, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing the Sick (Used to be “Last Rites”), and the church's assertion that she is the earthly mediator between God and man.
[Whew!]

'All that aside, when asked about how they will get to Heaven, most Catholics will say that they are good people (they are) and they go to Sunday Mass and receive Communion.

Most would not respond that Jesus died for their sins and they are forgiven because they’ve made Him Lord in their lives.

So to answer your question:
They have the label, but there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table.

Richard

PS: I almost forgot - not teaching the 2nd Commandment about graven images (because of the statues), and dividing the 10th Commandment into two to fill in the empty slot.

thanks Richard, very informational




"They have the label, but there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table."

from here on out this will be my default answer to everything!!!

Person: Excuse me, do you have the time?

Me: Well, there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table.

Person: Great scottsman's ghost!! *passes out*

Me: indeed....scottsman indeed

Richard H
Oct 1st 2008, 06:16 PM
<snip>
"They have the label, but there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table."

from here on out this will be my default answer to everything!!!

Person: Excuse me, do you have the time?

Me: Well, there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table.

Person: Great scottsman's ghost!! *passes out*

Me: indeed....scottsman indeed


L.O.L.

You have my permission, Oscar. :D

RoadWarrior
Oct 1st 2008, 07:38 PM
Oscar, the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church both have many "traditions" which they follow, that are not followed by those of us who seek a true, Biblical faith. They will point to the "church fathers" as having authority. Most of the people on this board do not consider the traditions of the church fathers as equivalent to the teachings in the Bible. There are some who do trust the traditions more than the Bible. Wherever they go, you will see them being argumentative with others.

There are people in the RCC and the EOC who are true believers, but blinded in some ways. There are also many people who are members of those churches (and others), but without any power in their faith.

A true seeker after God will keep on seeking, past the traditions, past the doctrines of men, seeking for God Himself. True seekers are willing to be proved wrong about a favorite belief, rather than lose God.

Jesus said that the way to recognize His disciples was that they would show love for each other. Not that they would argue over doctrines and traditions, but that they would love one another.

It is my constant prayer that when you read our responses on this forum, you will be able to discern those who love, and those who do not. Just wearing the name "Christian" does not guarantee that the name is written on the heart.

The goal of Christians Answer is that you as an unbeliever will catch a glimpse of Jesus as He is reflected in us.

P.S. The Orthodox Church goes under a few names, like Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. The name as a title is different from the meaning of the word orthodox, not-capitalized.

oscarkipling
Oct 1st 2008, 07:53 PM
Oscar, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both have many "traditions" which they follow, that are not followed by those of us who seek a true, Biblical faith. They will point to the "church fathers" as having authority. Most of the people on this board do not consider the traditions of the church fathers as equivalent to the teachings in the Bible. There are some who do trust the traditions more than the Bible. Wherever they go, you will see them being argumentative with others.

There are people in the RCC and the OC who are true believers, but blinded in some ways. There are also many people who are members of those churches (and others), but without any power in their faith.

A true seeker after God will keep on seeking, past the traditions, past the doctrines of men, seeking for God Himself. True seekers are willing to be proved wrong about a favorite belief, rather than lose God.

Jesus said that the way to recognize His disciples was that they would show love for each other. Not that they would argue over doctrines and traditions, but that they would love one another.

It is my constant prayer that when you read our responses on this forum, you will be able to discern those who love, and those who do not. Just wearing the name "Christian" does not guarantee that the name is written on the heart.

The goal of Christians Answer is that you as an unbeliever will catch a glimpse of Jesus as He is reflected in us.

P.S. The Orthodox Church goes under a few names, like Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. The name as a title is different from the meaning of the word orthodox, not-capitalized.

Thanks for your post R Dub

Evangelist Smith
Oct 5th 2008, 12:14 AM
First what is the difference in the belief of how to become a Christian for the Christian faith and for the Catholic Church

There is a difference

The Christian Church teaches that we are saved by grace thru faith

saved by grace thru what?

Faith

The Catholic Church teaches

you are saved by grace thru works

what work

Baptism

They truly believe that they can receive God's saving grace thru this act of righteousness

like the Pharisees thought their religeous works saved them

but only thru faith can we receive God's amazing grace

only thru faith in the shed blood of Christ

Christ does not come into our hearts thru any good work we might do

we must place our faith in Him and what He did on Calvary's cross

Each person is given a measure of faith, now what we do with that measure of faith is up to us

we can place it in a false god, we can place that faith in ourselves, we can place in religeous works,or we can place it in the Saviour Jesus Christ

For by grace are ye saved thru faith
and that not of yourselves
it is the Gift of God
not of works
lest any man boast

amen amen

God bless and I hope this helps you to understand about the wonderful gift of God's grace extended to all

and all the sinner need do is repent of their sins trusting n Christ for forgiveness

Mark 1:15

in Christ
Evangelist dare

oscarkipling
Oct 5th 2008, 12:32 AM
First what is the difference in the belief of how to become a Christian for the Christian faith and for the Catholic Church

There is a difference

The Christian Church teaches that we are saved by grace thru faith

saved by grace thru what?

Faith

The Catholic Church teaches

you are saved by grace thru works

what work

Baptism

They truly believe that they can receive God's saving grace thru this act of righteousness

like the Pharisees thought their religeous works saved them

but only thru faith can we receive God's amazing grace

only thru faith in the shed blood of Christ

Christ does not come into our hearts thru any good work we might do

we must place our faith in Him and what He did on Calvary's cross

Each person is given a measure of faith, now what we do with that measure of faith is up to us

we can place it in a false god, we can place that faith in ourselves, we can place in religeous works,or we can place it in the Saviour Jesus Christ

For by grace are ye saved thru faith
and that not of yourselves
it is the Gift of God
not of works
lest any man boast

amen amen

God bless and I hope this helps you to understand about the wonderful gift of God's grace extended to all

and all the sinner need do is repent of their sins trusting n Christ for forgiveness

Mark 1:15

in Christ
Evangelist dare


alright, thanks for your post

Evangelist Smith
Oct 5th 2008, 10:52 AM
Now may I ask you this my friend, do you believe the Bible, the Holy Word of God? Do you believe it to be truth?

God bless
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 5th 2008, 11:08 AM
Now may I ask you this my friend, do you believe the Bible, the Holy Word of God? Do you believe it to be truth?

God bless
Evang.dare

no.

-Oscar Kipling

mcgyver
Oct 5th 2008, 11:19 AM
Good morning Oscar :)

Just as an aside here:

Made up of two words (the Greek "Christos" and the Latin suffix "ian") "Christian" literally means a "bond-servant/slave of/[or]belonging to" Christ.

Christianity in the purest sense applies to those who have a personal relationship (through faith, by Grace) with Jesus Christ. An individual decision vs. a "corporate philosophy" as it were.

Therefore: There are Roman Catholics who are Christian, just as there are Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, etc. who are not Christian...but merely "religious" in that they go to church, sing the hymns, say the prayers, etc. without having a relationship with Christ. As I said earlier...the denominational name doesn't make one a Christian...a personal decision to follow Christ does.

The Roman Catholic Church is classified as a "Christian" church, however their theology is radically different in many areas from protestant churches, especially in the area of justification by means of grace alone.

You might want to look at the reformation and Martin Luther in order to get a handle on what happened and why (ref. the split from the Roman Catholic church and the formation of protestant churches.) :)

Sold Out
Oct 5th 2008, 11:42 PM
well, are they?

Nope, and neither are all Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans...etc.

A denomination affiliation is no guarantee of eternal life.

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 6th 2008, 01:35 AM
thanks Richard, very informational




"They have the label, but there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table."

from here on out this will be my default answer to everything!!!

Person: Excuse me, do you have the time?

Me: Well, there’s more than just peanut butter in the jelly.
I may pass on the sandwich, but I’ll leave it up to God to take it off the table.

Person: Great scottsman's ghost!! *passes out*

Me: indeed....scottsman indeed
...this made me laugh so hard I blew Dr. Pepper out my nose and all over my computer:rofl:

Thanks a lot Kipling.:(

Saved7
Oct 6th 2008, 03:35 AM
well, everything I know about Catholicism comes from that movie Stigmata:lol:, well that's not the whole truth but still, I did think they were just another flavor of Christian...or more precisely I didn't know that other Christians didn't consider them Christians.


I wouldn't say that catholics aren't christians, but instead that CATHOLICISM itself is not true christianity. There are many true christians within the catholic church who choose to stay within the confines of that denomination simply because their family goes there.

oscarkipling
Oct 6th 2008, 03:48 AM
I wouldn't say that catholics aren't christians, but instead that CATHOLICISM itself is not true christianity. There are many true christians within the catholic church who choose to stay within the confines of that denomination simply because their family goes there.

people keep saying this and yet this makes no sense to me. A catholic is a person who subscribes to Catholicism, if a person cannot subscribe to Catholicism and be a christian then surely they must either be not a Christian or not a Catholic...or i imagine not either. If you just go to a catholic church but don't believe in the doctrine or engage in the rituals, then in my opinion you are just some person who goes and sits in some ornate building..not a catholic. If the things i have been told are true then the idea of being a catholic and a christian does not add up.

Toymom
Oct 6th 2008, 04:12 AM
Catholicism is Christianity plus other stuff. They have the truth. Therefore, people within that group can indeed be Christians.
They also have all this other stuff added to the truth and many times it covers up the truth so they cannot see it and so, many of them are not Christians because they do not know the Lord due to all the other junk that is added in. There are also people in other Christian groups who are not really Christians - they do not have Christ living in them. They are nominal Christians - Christians in name only. They were raised and told they were Christian so they think they are, but they don't really know the Lord at all.
To be a Christian is to have Christ living in you.
It is to know that Jesus Christ is God because He told you so Himself.
It is not based on what someone else tells you, but on what you know from God Himself in addition to what is written in His word and confirmed by other believers.

oscarkipling
Oct 6th 2008, 04:40 AM
Catholicism is Christianity plus other stuff. They have the truth. Therefore, people within that group can indeed be Christians.
They also have all this other stuff added to the truth and many times it covers up the truth so they cannot see it and so, many of them are not Christians because they do not know the Lord due to all the other junk that is added in. There are also people in other Christian groups who are not really Christians - they do not have Christ living in them. They are nominal Christians - Christians in name only. They were raised and told they were Christian so they think they are, but they don't really know the Lord at all.
To be a Christian is to have Christ living in you.
It is to know that Jesus Christ is God because He told you so Himself.
It is not based on what someone else tells you, but on what you know from God Himself in addition to what is written in His word and confirmed by other believers.

so how does a person become a christian, in your view?

Toymom
Oct 9th 2008, 05:26 PM
so how does a person become a christian, in your view?
Romans 10:9-10, 13.

“If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved; For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation…For 'whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'”

Ethereal Spark
Oct 10th 2008, 10:45 PM
1--Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

A baby can't repent.

2--Matt 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

What do they call their priests?

3--1Tim 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yet they confess their sins to a Priest

4--Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yet they teach about Purgatory.

5--John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do .

They pray to Mary and teach that she can change God's mind about something. Mary did not change Jesus' mind at the Marriage of Cana. She gave over to his will. She said, "Do whatever HE tells you to..." And she didn't try to talk Him into anything.


6--Exodus 20:4 & 5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Yet there are graven images galore; Marys, Jesuses, Saints... they are bowed down to, they are prayed to... they are served; they have all these little things you are supposed to say to them so many times to get what you want. That's service.

7--Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Yet they instruct people who have sinned to do so many Hail Mary's and Our Fathers to be forgiven of it. Jesus called that a heathen practice.

8--1Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yet, they all but forbid the study of the Word, stating that it's only for priests etc., to interpret correctly.

9--Common Sense and Science:
Mary is not divine; if she were, then Jesus wouldn't have been a man and His death on the cross wouldn't have counted. The blood of the child is the blood of the father. That is the only way Jesus could be completely God and completely man at the same time. Having His Father's life in Him. He had to have pure blood ( [Leviticus 17:11] For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.]) untainted with sin, or he would have been born in sin and would have stayed dead instead of being raised from it. He had to have his mother's DNA, or 'human shell' to be a human being that could walk among us and talk to us, to be tempted as we are and for his body to die. So that a man who died could do so without sin.

That's why Jesus' blood is so integral a part of Christianity. His life was poured out for us. And when we accept Him as our Lord, Master and Savior, He exchanges our sinful life for His sinless one.

As Christians, we believe and obey the Bible's teachings, knowing it to be the Word of God ([1 Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:]) because the Author resides in us and He confirms it's authenticity to us. All these teachings of the Bible they ignore, or try to rationalize their disobedience of them.

I'd say no, they aren't Christian. Even [I]they say they aren't.

*Note*
Every time I've asked a Catholic person, "Are you a Christian?" Every single time they've replied, "I'm a Catholic". I've never had one answer, "Yes."

And one thing really bugs me. The Crucifix. The whole of Christianity is built upon Christ's Resurrection, not His death. Granted, without His death, His blood would not have been shed, but lots of guys were crucified in those days--it was the thing. It was rising FROM the dead that brought us salvation. Yet they seem to want to keep him on the cross. Our crosses are empty... just like the tomb where He was buried.

And we become saved just like Toymom said:

Romans 10:9-10, 13.
“If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved; For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation…For 'whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'”

Dani H
Oct 10th 2008, 11:06 PM
God has His kids everywhere ...

oscarkipling
Oct 11th 2008, 12:06 AM
thanks for all the replies ..I appreciate them, each and every one is like the morning dew that litters the blades of grass with iridescent gems....truly they will reflect forever like 2 mirrors facing each other.

HisServant
Oct 11th 2008, 05:07 AM
The Roman Catholics like all of the denominations and non-denominations derived from the Bible probably have some right and some wrong. The members of each usually believe that they have at the least the very best thing going.

All of us "Christians" are covered also by the following verse. I, of course, do not exclude even myself.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

itzme
Oct 13th 2008, 12:02 PM
I have a different thought on this.

I think people are forgetting that Catholicism is the bedrock of the Protestant faith. Yes, they are different theologically thinking than Protestants, but it is more a continuum. No Aquinas, no Augustine no Protestants.

About the difference, can I see my fellow neighbor as a brother even though he/she is a different "flavor" than me? I won't ever get a spiritual feeling from praying to the saints (for example), but I can read the Catholic explanation (they say they do not pray to) and respect it for what it is. I can understand the history behind it (roots in Judaism) and respect it that and so on...

Even more so, I can find many things to respect in Catholicism, that is not an issue. In the same way I can find things I don't respect in Protestant thought I can find the same in Catholicism.

Also, hatred between Protestants and Catholics caused so much evil in the world that anything that encourages that again should be shunned.

Finally, if the greatest commandment is to love my neighbor as myself, then defining my neighbor as not having a connection to God is a serious sin.

In short I do consider Catholics Christians.

mcgyver
Oct 13th 2008, 12:04 PM
Good Morning all :)

Just a reminder to everyone participating here...to both avoid derailing the thread, and to keep within the guidelines of this forum....

Please direct your answers toward the OP.

Thanks!

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 01:18 PM
At this very moment in India, Catholics being kidnapped, beaten to death, and burned alive for confessing the gospel to the lower castes of a Hindu culture. The LUCKY ones are those just being beaten and left. If you stacked up all the calamity of my 30 years and compared it to what they've suffered these past few months, in Christ's name the comparison would be laughable.

Far be it from me to tell such people they aren't Christian. I dare not risk God's wrath by suggesting such a thing.

oscarkipling
Oct 13th 2008, 02:09 PM
Does a christian have any such responsibility to determine who or what is or isn't Christian?

Is there a limit to how out of alignment your beliefs can be while still remaining a "real" Christian?


I mean, people die rather than disregard their beliefs all the time, I cant say that because someone feels strongly that their beliefs must be the truth. I might conclude that they genuinely believe in them, but not that the beliefs they hold are genuinely true. I do understand that tolerance and love may be major tenets of Christian belief, but I don't see why the determination of a persons Christianhoodness would preclude an individual from christian love or at least that how i came to understand it.

mcgyver
Oct 13th 2008, 02:20 PM
Note here:

Earlier I deleted a response by Evangelist Smith regarding a question he had for Oscar. I was mistaken, so.....

I told him to re-post it, and Oscar...feel free to answer.

Thanks for your understanding! :)

Evangelist Smith
Oct 13th 2008, 04:13 PM
Oscar u asked the question how does one become a Christian..Christ made that simple in His preaching..Mark 1:15

And Jesus came to Galiee preaching "Repent ye and Believe the Gospel"

There are no religious works we can do to be saved

It is by God's grace that we are saved

For by grace are ye saved thru faith and that not of yourselves
it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast

The Lord has given each one of us a measure of faith

now what we place that faith will decide where we spend eternity

we can place it in our good works,false gods, religeous rituals, attending church every sunday

or whatever

but if we do NOT place it in the finished work of Christ we will surely perish..

Not one of us has an excuse to perish

not one of us

because Christ died for all

And I noticed if I am not mistaken that you said you did not believe in God and if that being your correct statement I would reply to you this

If you will turn in your Bible to the first chapter of the Book of Romans and read where the good Lord put the knowledge of Himself into all and not only that, He put the knowledge that He was the Creator into all and His Word goes on to say that man will stand without excuse

Those who say there is no God

God put that knowledge in them and they will indeed stand guilty and without excuse before a Righteous Holy and Just God.

So these scriptures makes that man a liar because He knew there was a God, He just refused to obey the Lord and repent of His sins and trust in the Saviour

My friend God loves you, cares about you and has done all that you might not perish, but that you would receive His saving grace and be saved...

The next step is yours for you my friend because you have heard the Gospel, that Christ died for your sins and was buried and arose the third day according to the scriptures

REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN CHRIST = SALVATION

It is my prayer and earnest hope that you would obey the Lord and be saved while God is extending His mercy because the Lord does not promise you another day ..nor does He promise me one or anyone else one...But I can say this, I am prepared to meet Him should He call me this instant..and I would like nothing more than for you to be and all who are lost and undone without Christ..

I always post a sinners prayer..It is just a guide line u dont have to use it if u should choose to serve the Lord today

Dear Heavenly Father, I recognize that I am a sinner and I ask Lord that you would forgive me of all of my sins and cleanse me of all unrighteousness, I believe Lord Jesus that you died on the cross to pay for my sins and I believe that you arose the third day,please come into my heart and live and be my saviour, in this your name I do pray amen and amen

He who hath the Son of God hath not life and he who hath not the Son of God, hath not life......1JOhn 5:12

Whosoever was Not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.....Rev.20;15

God bless
Evang.dare

jesusfreak123
Oct 14th 2008, 01:15 AM
Yes, I believe that Catholics are Christians. My best friend is Catholic and she believes that she is a Christian.

oscarkipling
Oct 14th 2008, 02:14 AM
Oscar u asked the question how does one become a Christian..Christ made that simple in His preaching..Mark 1:15

And Jesus came to Galiee preaching "Repent ye and Believe the Gospel"

There are no religious works we can do to be saved

It is by God's grace that we are saved

For by grace are ye saved thru faith and that not of yourselves
it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast

The Lord has given each one of us a measure of faith

now what we place that faith will decide where we spend eternity

we can place it in our good works,false gods, religeous rituals, attending church every sunday

or whatever

but if we do NOT place it in the finished work of Christ we will surely perish..

Not one of us has an excuse to perish

not one of us

because Christ died for all

And I noticed if I am not mistaken that you said you did not believe in God and if that being your correct statement I would reply to you this

If you will turn in your Bible to the first chapter of the Book of Romans and read where the good Lord put the knowledge of Himself into all and not only that, He put the knowledge that He was the Creator into all and His Word goes on to say that man will stand without excuse

Those who say there is no God

God put that knowledge in them and they will indeed stand guilty and without excuse before a Righteous Holy and Just God.

So these scriptures makes that man a liar because He knew there was a God, He just refused to obey the Lord and repent of His sins and trust in the Saviour

My friend God loves you, cares about you and has done all that you might not perish, but that you would receive His saving grace and be saved...

The next step is yours for you my friend because you have heard the Gospel, that Christ died for your sins and was buried and arose the third day according to the scriptures

REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN CHRIST = SALVATION

It is my prayer and earnest hope that you would obey the Lord and be saved while God is extending His mercy because the Lord does not promise you another day ..nor does He promise me one or anyone else one...But I can say this, I am prepared to meet Him should He call me this instant..and I would like nothing more than for you to be and all who are lost and undone without Christ..

I always post a sinners prayer..It is just a guide line u dont have to use it if u should choose to serve the Lord today

Dear Heavenly Father, I recognize that I am a sinner and I ask Lord that you would forgive me of all of my sins and cleanse me of all unrighteousness, I believe Lord Jesus that you died on the cross to pay for my sins and I believe that you arose the third day,please come into my heart and live and be my saviour, in this your name I do pray amen and amen

He who hath the Son of God hath not life and he who hath not the Son of God, hath not life......1JOhn 5:12

Whosoever was Not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.....Rev.20;15

God bless
Evang.dare



well this certainly concurs with my understanding that Christianity does propose that God's existence and the veracity of the bible is obvious to every human being...so in that regard I do understand where you are coming from...I just don't believe you. Thanks for your post

oscarkipling
Oct 14th 2008, 02:15 AM
Yes, I believe that Catholics are Christians. My best friend is Catholic and she believes that she is a Christian.

cool thanks Jesus freak

Evangelist Smith
Oct 14th 2008, 11:26 AM
well this certainly concurs with my understanding that Christianity does propose that God's existence and the veracity of the bible is obvious to every human being...so in that regard I do understand where you are coming from...I just don't believe you. Thanks for your postYou know precious friend you can dance around the truth all day long , but in your heart,you know...

You know .

And the sad fact of it all is, you just choose not to serve the good Lord...and that is your choice,not the Lord's for He has done all to save you that you might not perish...He gave Himself

He was willing to be mocked, He was willing to be scorned , ridiculed ,spit upon ,beaten unmercifully,He was willing to be rejected by His own creation,

He was willing to suffer bleed and die for your sins my friend and mine and this whole worlds.

Our precious Saviour was willing

Why?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever Believeth in Him would not perish but have everlasting



For God so loved

And He earnestly and tenderly calls you to repentance my friend and I hope with all of my being that you would obey tht call and be saved before it is eternally to late.

Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord
though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow
though they be red like crimson they shall be white as wool

For Thou O Lord art good and ready to forgive
plentious in mercy unto all that call upon Thee

For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD
shall be saved

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


The Lord bids you to come my friend, come and drink of this living water...And I assure you it is a water that you will never regret tasting..

Oh how good it is to serve the Lord..Oh how good it is.


God bless you my friend





In His service
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 14th 2008, 11:42 AM
You know precious friend you can dance around the truth all day long , but in your heart,you know...

You know .

And the sad fact of it all is, you just choose not to serve the good Lord...and that is your choice,not the Lord's for He has done all to save you that you might not perish...He gave Himself

He was willing to be mocked, He was willing to be scorned , ridiculed ,spit upon ,beaten unmercifully,He was willing to be rejected by His own creation,

He was willing to suffer bleed and die for your sins my friend and mine and this whole worlds.

Our precious Saviour was willing

Why?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever Believeth in Him would not perish but have everlasting



For God so loved

And He earnestly and tenderly calls you to repentance my friend and I hope with all of my being that you would obey tht call and be saved before it is eternally to late.

Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord
though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow
though they be red like crimson they shall be white as wool

For Thou O Lord art good and ready to forgive
plentious in mercy unto all that call upon Thee

For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD
shall be saved

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


The Lord bids you to come my friend, come and drink of this living water...And I assure you it is a water that you will never regret tasting..

Oh how good it is to serve the Lord..Oh how good it is.


God bless you my friend





In His service
Evang.dare

well, okay thanks

CoffeeCat
Oct 14th 2008, 04:44 PM
Oscar, this is the easiest way I can think of saying it: if you believe Jesus Christ died, was raised again and is the only Son of God (the only way to God)... and if you confess Him, admit you are a sinner, ask forgiveness for your sins, repent, and follow Him daily.... you're a Christian. That's the bare bones of it. Whether you're belonging (in terms of denomination) to a particular church or not, what makes someone Christian is basically the above, as I understand it.

If there is "extra stuff" added to a particular church's theology or practices, you need to ask yourself if it contradicts the above. If it does, then you have trouble, because it's something that would distract you from knowing Christ. If it does not contradict the above, then it's literally extra optional stuff that won't probably affect your salvation one way or the other.

(Let's take the Catholic church as an example. It might not hurt much, for instance, to wear certain colours and use certain candles at particular times of the year... but besides the symbolism, it might not help you get closer to Christ, either.)

Evangelist Smith
Oct 14th 2008, 06:06 PM
I believe I made the Gospel quite clear to Oscar...

And Jesus came to Galiee preaching "Repent ye and Believe the Gospel"

Repentance and faith in Christ = SALVATION

Its that simple

And the Lord gives us a choice to obey the Gospel or not to obey the Gospel ..Our choice and we must bear in mind if we make the wrong choice, we will have forever to live with that sad and costly choice..amen amen


isa.65Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.


Rom.2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy HARDNESS and IMPENITENT HEART heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do NOT obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


The Word is clear

Disobedience to God brings> Judgment

Obedience brings>Blessings






God bless
In Christ' Service
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 14th 2008, 11:30 PM
Oscar, this is the easiest way I can think of saying it: if you believe Jesus Christ died, was raised again and is the only Son of God (the only way to God)... and if you confess Him, admit you are a sinner, ask forgiveness for your sins, repent, and follow Him daily.... you're a Christian. That's the bare bones of it. Whether you're belonging (in terms of denomination) to a particular church or not, what makes someone Christian is basically the above, as I understand it.

If there is "extra stuff" added to a particular church's theology or practices, you need to ask yourself if it contradicts the above. If it does, then you have trouble, because it's something that would distract you from knowing Christ. If it does not contradict the above, then it's literally extra optional stuff that won't probably affect your salvation one way or the other.

(Let's take the Catholic church as an example. It might not hurt much, for instance, to wear certain colours and use certain candles at particular times of the year... but besides the symbolism, it might not help you get closer to Christ, either.)

I see, thanks coffeecat

oscarkipling
Oct 14th 2008, 11:31 PM
I believe I made the Gospel quite clear to Oscar...

And Jesus came to Galiee preaching "Repent ye and Believe the Gospel"

Repentance and faith in Christ = SALVATION

Its that simple

And the Lord gives us a choice to obey the Gospel or not to obey the Gospel ..Our choice and we must bear in mind if we make the wrong choice, we will have forever to live with that sad and costly choice..amen amen


isa.65Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.


Rom.2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy HARDNESS and IMPENITENT HEART heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do NOT obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


The Word is clear

Disobedience to God brings> Judgment

Obedience brings>Blessings






God bless
In Christ' Service
Evang.dare

Like sparkling lead crystal, thanks

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 01:05 AM
Well Im happy to hear tht the Word of the Lord here is clear to you, that the Gospel is clearly understood..Now I have a question

Oscar do you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

In His service
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 01:19 AM
Well Im happy to hear tht the Word of the Lord here is clear to you, that the Gospel is clearly understood..Now I have a question

Oscar do you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

In His service
Evang.dare

what you said was clear, and If what you said is true then I do better than believe, I know for certain that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true and there is nothing that I can do to not know that.

HisServant
Oct 15th 2008, 02:36 AM
well this certainly concurs with my understanding that Christianity does propose that God's existence and the veracity of the bible is obvious to every human being...so in that regard I do understand where you are coming from...I just don't believe you. Thanks for your post

Neither did most people, [or at least those that were in apparent control], believe Jesus.

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:" Matt 13:14

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 03:04 AM
Neither did most people, [or at least those that were in apparent control], believe Jesus.

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:" Matt 13:14


could you elaborate on your point please?

to my understanding E. smith is saying that I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that God exists and that the Bible is his inerrant word. So like those people who denied Jesus, I know its undeniably true, I believe Jesus but I pretend that I don't. I am not confused, I am not skeptical, I am not open to the possibility of alternative explanations, I do not believe what I say I believe, I grok it all but I choose to lie in spite of myself....and so does anyone who ever lived their lives as anything but a Christian....or at least that's what I got out of it....of course that's not what that particular verse says to me.....but I guess I'm lying about what I think that verse means too.

Tanya~
Oct 15th 2008, 06:00 AM
Just a note to all participants in this thread, and anyone who might happen to be new to the forum... please read the rules for the Christians Answer forum which you can find as a sticky at the top. Per the rules, all replies that are not a response to Oscarkipling in this thread will be deleted. Thank you for your cooperation!

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 08:31 AM
well, are they?


I am impressed with the writings of the catholic mystics like Guyon,Molinos and Fenelon. They definitely had a relationship with Jesus that surpasses mine at it's current level. I would say with full confidence that they were saved and therefor Christians . However, the catholic church had nothing but persecution for them.

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 09:24 AM
what you said was clear, and If what you said is true then I do better than believe, I know for certain that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true and there is nothing that I can do to not know that.

Oscar u are saying in one breath you dont believe it and in another you say you know for sure.

Either you believe God and His Word or you dont my friend..

Do you believe the Gospel, that Christ died for your sins and arose the third day according to the scriptures..Oscar do you believe this?

a yes or no answer would certainly simplify things here...I would appreciate that..God bless

In Christ' Service
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 09:50 AM
Oscar u are saying in one breath you dont believe it and in another you say you know for sure.

Either you believe God and His Word or you dont my friend..

Do you believe the Gospel, that Christ died for your sins and arose the third day according to the scriptures..Oscar do you believe this?

a yes or no answer would certainly simplify things here...I would appreciate that..God bless

In Christ' Service
Evang.dare


I guess you didn't understand what I was saying...see you told me a few posts ago that I already "knew" that all these things are true....so you answered your own question. I already told you that I didn't believe that God exists and you insisted that I knew that he did. I tell you something and then you tell me that my answer is impossible. How am I supposed to approach that?

Anyway the answer is no.

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 10:22 AM
I guess you didn't understand what I was saying...see you told me a few posts ago that I already "knew" that all these things are true....so you answered your own question. I already told you that I didn't believe that God exists and you insisted that I knew that he did. I tell you something and then you tell me that my answer is impossible. How am I supposed to approach that?

Anyway the answer is no.
What I said was that every soul knows there is a God and that every soul knows that He is the Creator..Thats what I said.


Ok u said that you did not believe the Word of God to be truth..Correct?

Well that is your choice to believe whether God is truthful or a liar

that is your choice

I choose to believe God to be nothing but Holy, Righteous and Just

amen amen

Now if I am not mistaken in an earlier post you mentioned your relationship with Christ.

Friend there is no relationship with Christ if you have not repented of your sins trusting in Him as your Saviour..

There is no relationship

lets go to the Word

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


So we see from the Word of the good Lord that without Him there is no relationship and He will say in that day , depart from me I never knew you.

The only way we can have a relationship with God is to receive His saving grace thru the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ

we cannot get to the Father unless we go thru the Son

and the Only way to go thru the Son is to repent and receive Him as our Saviour

And then we are adopted into the family of God..We become His child and He becomes our Heavenly Father..

Then and only then do we have a personal relationship with God..Then and only then..amen amen


I wanted to clarify that for you Oscar because I dont wont you or anyone else deceived

Now getting back to your earlier statement that you do not believe the Word of God to be truth

May I ask you why you believe that your God and my God and our God , and your Creator and mine and everyone elses is a liar?

i truly want to know this because you see when we do not believe the Word of God then we are saying in our heart that His Word is a lie and when we say that, we are saying our God is a liar.

So why do you feel God is a liar, Oscar?

God bless
Evang.dare

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 10:46 AM
I guess you didn't understand what I was saying...see you told me a few posts ago that I already "knew" that all these things are true....so you answered your own question. I already told you that I didn't believe that God exists and you insisted that I knew that he did. I tell you something and then you tell me that my answer is impossible. How am I supposed to approach that?

Anyway the answer is no.


Hi oscar,

Forgive me for intruding but why don't you believe in God?

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 10:59 AM
Rom.1:18-21For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that

which may be known of God

is manifest in them;

for God hath shewed [it] unto them.



For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen,

being understood by the things that are made,

[even] his eternal power and Godhead;

so that they are without excuse:



Because that, when they knew God,

they glorified [him] not as God,

neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 11:35 AM
What I said was that every soul knows there is a God and that every soul knows that He is the Creator..Thats what I said.


Ok u said that you did not believe the Word of God to be truth..Correct?

Well that is your choice to believe whether God is truthful or a liar

that is your choice

I choose to believe God to be nothing but Holy, Righteous and Just

amen amen

Now if I am not mistaken in an earlier post you mentioned your relationship with Christ.

Friend there is no relationship with Christ if you have not repented of your sins trusting in Him as your Saviour..

There is no relationship


lets go to the Word

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


So we see from the Word of the good Lord that without Him there is no relationship and He will say in that day , depart from me I never knew you.

The only way we can have a relationship with God is to receive His saving grace thru the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ

we cannot get to the Father unless we go thru the Son

and the Only way to go thru the Son is to repent and receive Him as our Saviour

And then we are adopted into the family of God..We become His child and He becomes our Heavenly Father..

Then and only then do we have a personal relationship with God..Then and only then..amen amen


I wanted to clarify that for you Oscar because I dont wont you or anyone else deceived


hmm, that seems pretty out of character for me to claim to have a relationship with Christ....but hey its good to know that if for whatever reason I randomly decided to claim such a thing without actually performing the rituals involved that I would know that it was a false statement.




Now getting back to your earlier statement that you do not believe the Word of God to be truth

May I ask you why you believe that your God and my God and our God , and your Creator and mine and everyone elses is a liar?

i truly want to know this because you see when we do not believe the Word of God then we are saying in our heart that His Word is a lie and when we say that, we are saying our God is a liar.

So why do you feel God is a liar, Oscar?

God bless
Evang.dare

again, how am I supposed to approach this? In your scenario I cant possibly be thinking that the word of God is a lie because I know that its true. When the question is structured this way I am only left with the notion that I am the liar and moreover I'm lying for absolutely no reason and what's even worse I willingly lie in the face of my own eternal determent. In this scenario I can only conclude that I am a self destructive insane person.....unless of course you have another line of reasoning.

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 11:48 AM
Hi oscar,

Forgive me for intruding but why don't you believe in God?


haha, no intrusion, this is an open discourse. Anyhow I don't believe in God I guess because I am not convinced by the evidence, because there are other religions, because of the way the rules are structured, because God hasn't revealed himself to me in a way that I can be morally certain of his existence, because the Bible can be misinterpreted, because i don't "just know"..there is probably more...but i've written something similar to this at least a few other times.. anyway thanks for your post

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 11:48 AM
hmm, that seems pretty out of character for me to claim to have a relationship with Christ....but hey its good to know that if for whatever reason I randomly decided to claim such a thing without actually performing the rituals involved that I would know that it was a false statement.




again, how am I supposed to approach this? In your scenerio I cant possibly be thinking that the word of God is a lie because I know that its true. When the question is structured this way I am only left with the notion that I am the liar and moreover i'm lying for absolutely no reason and what's even worse I lie at my own eternal detrement. In this scenerio I can only conclude that I am a self destructive insane person.....unless of course you have another line of reasoning.

No in my thinking from your statements you say you do not believe the Word of God..and when we do not believe the Word of God we are hence calling God a liar,because it is His Word and He cannot lie.

If you recall I asked you do you believe the Gospel? The Gospel is the Word of God..You said

No

Therefore you do not believe the Word of God

Oscar what does that make God?

A liar

And yes your unbelief is to your own destruction

amen amen

lets go to the Word

John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1John 5 :9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:

for this is the witness of God

which he hath testified of his Son.



10.He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:

he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;

because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son


11.And this is the record,

that God hath given to us eternal life,

and this life is in his Son.

12.He who hath the Son hath life and he who hath not the Son of God hath not life

13.These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God bless you friend
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 12:09 PM
No in my thinking from your statements you say you do not believe the Word of God..and when we do not believe the Word of God we are hence calling God a liar,because it is His Word and He cannot lie.

If you recall I asked you do you believe the Gospel? The Gospel is the Word of God..You said

No

Therefore you do not believe the Word of God

Oscar what does that make God?

A liar

And yes your unbelief is to your own destruction

amen amen

lets go to the Word

John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1John 5 :9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:

for this is the witness of God

which he hath testified of his Son.



10.He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:

he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;

because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son


11.And this is the record,

that God hath given to us eternal life,

and this life is in his Son.

12.He who hath the Son hath life and he who hath not the Son of God hath not life

13.These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God bless you friend
Evang.dare






well, okay.
thanks for your post

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 12:15 PM
Friend do you believe the Record(The Holy Bible) that God gave His son to die for your sins and mine and this whole worlds? Do you believe it?





In Christ' Service
Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 12:34 PM
Friend do you believe the Record(The Holy Bible) that God gave His son to die for your sins and mine and this whole worlds? Do you believe it?

In Christ' Service
Evang.dare


:eek:

Have you ever had anyone convert to Christianity after you presented them with this astonishing piece of logic? If so could you tell me about it?

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 12:35 PM
I wanted to come back and add this Oscar, I believe this will be the last time I ask you that question because you have been presented the Gospel enough that you more than clearly understand ..If I could drag u to the foot of the cross I would and God wont..Our precious Lord will not force anyone to serve Him..

The Lord loves you my friend and expressed that great love in His unfailing Word and proved it upon and old rugged cross,



And the decision is yours my friend who you choose to serve and bear this in mind my friend, God does not promise any more chances to be saved,anymore days to think about it or prolong it..And I must tell you my friend, hell is full of those who believed they would have another day and another opportunity to be saved..Full

And it is my prayer and earnest hope that you would believe the good Lord and obey His Word and be saved before it is eternally to late..

God bless
Evang.dare

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 12:38 PM
:eek:

Have you ever had anyone convert to Christianity after you presented them with this astonishing piece of logic? If so could you tell me about it?I dont keep the records my friend but the Lord does and yes to that answer..quite a few have been led to the Lord

Thank God

Evang.dare

oscarkipling
Oct 15th 2008, 12:47 PM
I wanted to come back and add this Oscar, I believe this will be the last time I ask you that question because you have been presented the Gospel enough that you more than clearly understand ..If I could drag u to the foot of the cross I would and God wont..Our precious Lord will not force anyone to serve Him..

The Lord loves you my friend and expressed that great love in His unfailing Word and proved it upon and old rugged cross,



And the decision is yours my friend who you choose to serve and bear this in mind my friend, God does not promise any more chances to be saved,anymore days to think about it or prolong it..And I must tell you my friend, hell is full of those who believed they would have another day and another opportunity to be saved..Full

And it is my prayer and earnest hope that you would believe the good Lord and obey His Word and be saved before it is eternally to late..

God bless
Evang.dare



I dont keep the records my friend but the Lord does and yes to that answer..quite a few have been led to the Lord

Thank God

Evang.dare


well thank you for all your help and concern, it was nice talking to you

Evangelist Smith
Oct 15th 2008, 12:54 PM
You are so very welcome Oscar..I just so hate that you have made the decision not to serve the Lord..Right now my heart is full of sorrow for you..I hurt because I know if u leave this world without Christ what will happen..and my friend I would give that great consideration ,great consideration..

I really dont know what else to say..but this



Whosoever was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

And Jesus answered him saying

Ye MUST be Born again to enter into the Kingdom of God



God bless you
Evang.dare

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 09:00 PM
:eek:

Have you ever had anyone convert to Christianity after you presented them with this astonishing piece of logic? If so could you tell me about it?

This is an excellent question. Did you ever get an answer oscar?
I can only say..ZING!

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 09:03 PM
haha, no intrusion, this is an open discourse. Anyhow I don't believe in God I guess because I am not convinced by the evidence, because there are other religions, because of the way the rules are structured, because God hasn't revealed himself to me in a way that I can be morally certain of his existence, because the Bible can be misinterpreted, because i don't "just know"..there is probably more...but i've written something similar to this at least a few other times.. anyway thanks for your post

These are valid objections. If they were properly dealt with to your satisfaction would you consider converting?
Forgive my failure to research all your past posts. You have over 400! :)

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 01:10 PM
These are valid objections. If they were properly dealt with to your satisfaction would you consider converting?
Forgive my failure to research all your past posts. You have over 400! :)

nah I cant realistically expect anyone to read all my posts, besides I imagine some of my former opinions are ones that I don't hold anymore anyway. but to answer your question, Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction...I think in that situation, not converting would be insane.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 01:37 PM
nah I cant realistically expect anyone to read all my posts, besides I imagine some of my former opinions are ones that I don't hold anymore anyway. but to answer your question, Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction...I think in that situation, not converting would be insane.

Oscar, You certainly have a way with words. Is there any British in your history? Well no matter if not.

I have enjoyed watching you bate and debate in this thread. I think it more than a little sad that an earnest effort to seek truth is dealt with by brick bashing and saber rattling at you. Anyway, you handled it with aplomb.

I would like to get you and Apothanein Kerdos into a thread together. He may be of value to you in your search. He comes from a more lucid philosophical perspective and may be more to you liking in your search for valuable discourse. I will participate if I have any value to share. But this particular thread is about Catholics and so my only offering to you is: Yes, it is a flavor of Christianity. That is all. Whether a Baptist, Catholic or etc gets to heaven is based on the same rules for all. (Which rules you have had rammed into your throat :rofl:)

All the best. Start a thread on finding faith and private message me of it. I'll find you, and bring Apothenein Kerdos too, if he will.

Dragonfighter1

apothanein kerdos
Oct 16th 2008, 02:45 PM
nah I cant realistically expect anyone to read all my posts, besides I imagine some of my former opinions are ones that I don't hold anymore anyway. but to answer your question, Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction...I think in that situation, not converting would be insane.

Thats a fair enough assessment. However, keep in mind your doubts may never be taken care of. In Christianity, because it is so complex and infinite (because the Source is eternal), doubts will always arise. I'm sitting here having just finished reading John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism and doubts arose. I have also researched and thought the issue out and found answers to those doubts. That is one of the processes of growing as a Christian - doubting and finding answers to that doubt.

Of course, there is an initial doubt one must overcome, which I am more than happyto try my best to help you on.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 02:59 PM
Oscar, You certainly have a way with words. Is there any British in your history? Well no matter if not.

I have enjoyed watching you bate and debate in this thread. I think it more than a little sad that an earnest effort to seek truth is dealt with by brick bashing and saber rattling at you. Anyway, you handled it with aplomb.

I would like to get you and Apothanein Kerdos into a thread together. He may be of value to you in your search. He comes from a more lucid philosophical perspective and may be more to you liking in your search for valuable discourse. I will participate if I have any value to share. But this particular thread is about Catholics and so my only offering to you is: Yes, it is a flavor of Christianity. That is all. Whether a Baptist, Catholic or etc gets to heaven is based on the same rules for all. (Which rules you have had rammed into your throat :rofl:)

All the best. Start a thread on finding faith and private message me of it. I'll find you, and bring Apothenein Kerdos too, if he will.

Dragonfighter1

haha, no British lineage here, none that I know of at least, but I will admit that I love the way a well spoken Brit speaks...my dream is that when my life is made into a movie Anthony Hopkins will play as me, never mind the nearly 50 year age gap, he's the man for the job. anyway thanks and I look forward to our conversations in the future.

winterband
Oct 16th 2008, 03:03 PM
well, are they?

While they claim Peter as "pope" they don't obey the Acts 2:38 salvation plan that Peter preached, so I would have to say that they are not yet Biblical Christians.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Since Peter also states that Acts 2:38 is for all that God would call, the logical conclusion would be that it is the plan of salvation for everyone.

Also the philosophies that they embrace also appear to match with what the Bible warns against.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Bro. Winter
--
For doctrine: http://www.prime.org
For music: http://www.winterband.com

Jude
Oct 16th 2008, 03:12 PM
If your one of Gods elect it is He that will find you not the other way around.

Jude

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 03:13 PM
Thats a fair enough assessment. However, keep in mind your doubts may never be taken care of. In Christianity, because it is so complex and infinite (because the Source is eternal), doubts will always arise. I'm sitting here having just finished reading John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism and doubts arose. I have also researched and thought the issue out and found answers to those doubts. That is one of the processes of growing as a Christian - doubting and finding answers to that doubt.

Of course, there is an initial doubt one must overcome, which I am more than happyto try my best to help you on.


yes, I realize doubts will still lurk, especially being the guy that I am...I imagine that there is a tipping point that can be reached, where I would find it unreasonable to not believe in God, though some questions remain unanswered. I even speculate sometimes that my conversion won't necessarily have anything to do with logic or doubts or anything that I can even anticipate right now...so yeah I try to keep it in mind...or to keep in mind that my mind cant keep enough in it to keep track of it all. anyway yep thanks.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 03:17 PM
While they claim Peter as "pope" they don't obey the Acts 2:38 salvation plan that Peter preached, so I would have to say that they are not yet Biblical Christians.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Since Peter also states that Acts 2:38 is for all that God would call, the logical conclusion would be that it is the plan of salvation for everyone.

Also the philosophies that they embrace also appear to match with what the Bible warns against.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Bro. Winter
--
For doctrine: http://www.prime.org
For music: http://www.winterband.com

cool thanks Brother Winter

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 03:18 PM
If your one of Gods elect it is He that will find you not the other way around.

Jude





I can guess what you mean by this, but could you elaborate a bit?

apothanein kerdos
Oct 16th 2008, 03:24 PM
yes, I realize doubts will still lurk, especially being the guy that I am...I imagine that there is a tipping point that can be reached, where I would find it unreasonable to not believe in God, though some questions remain unanswered. I even speculate sometimes that my conversion won't necessarily have anything to do with logic or doubts or anything that I can even anticipate right now...so yeah I try to keep it in mind...or to keep in mind that my mind cant keep enough in it to keep track of it all. anyway yep thanks.


Prior to coming to Christ we must have our doubts answered - but coming to Him is far more than an intellectual exercise.

Think of marriage. Prior to marrying a woman a man must remove most doubts about her - he must know she really loves him, that she's faithful, that she really wants to mary him, etc. This is a logical check list that he may consciously or subconsciously go over. At the same time, he doesn't propose to the woman with a logical syllogism. ;)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 03:40 PM
Prior to coming to Christ we must have our doubts answered - but coming to Him is far more than an intellectual exercise.

Think of marriage. Prior to marrying a woman a man must remove most doubts about her - he must know she really loves him, that she's faithful, that she really wants to mary him, etc. This is a logical check list that he may consciously or subconsciously go over. At the same time, he doesn't propose to the woman with a logical syllogism. ;)


Oscar, Apothanien makes a valid point here, may I additionally suggest a very rudimentary one that may be of value too.

There is a scripture that says "Taste and see that the Lord is good."

For the sake of this point led us continue in the vein that God had not yet been proven to exist (disregarding "if it were proven but which faith is correct").

Would it be unreasonable to suggest that a sincere prayer to God that he show up on your (intellectual) taste buds is not amiss. To infact: Taste and see if the Lord is good.:P

If he isn't real it will not have been anymore a waste of your time than posting an answer to some of the more aggressive posts you so skillfully blew out of peoples noses (the peanut butter one was hilarious).

If he is real, then you will find that your "intellectual taste buds" will be activated so to speak. This at least will enable you in your sincere search for truth to be able to perceive that which in not able to be perceived by those who are not sincere.

Perhaps you already have prayed to taste and see. If so I did not mean to be presumption. I do recognize that you have been in these boards for quite a while.

DF

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 03:46 PM
I imagine too, that you would greatly enjoy the writings of C.S.Lewis. His personal letters compendium, and some of the manuscripts he wrote for his radio program during the war (WW2) would likely be immensely useful for your purposes. An Oxford Don and a Christian Apologist with a humble style.

Mere Christianity would be a good one to review. But I must reiterate a point made earlier.... Logic alone will not suffice. At some point the soul must emote. Then the take is real.

DF

The Preacher
Oct 16th 2008, 03:49 PM
nah I cant realistically expect anyone to read all my posts, besides I imagine some of my former opinions are ones that I don't hold anymore anyway. but to answer your question, Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction...I think in that situation, not converting would be insane.

I wouldn't even presume to be able to address all your doubts to perfection. In fact, I don't think God wants to do that. If he wanted that done he could easily reveal himself to the world and remove all doubt from anyone's mind. The fact is that God has ordained that man should have faith in him to be saved. He wants us to believe in his plan without fully seeing it. it's almost as if he requires a humiliation of our intellectual pride. His plan even appears foolish to those that perish but to those that are saved his wisdom is revealed. Our original sin was eating from the tree of knowledge. It's interesting that his plan of salvation ,at first glance, appears to violate logic. It doesn't make sense to us that a murderer who has lived his whole life hurting others can be redeemed in an instant just by accepting Jesus's atonement by faith while a seemingly good person,who has contributed much to society and has never hurt a living soul will go to hell if they don't believe. This violates our basic understanding of right and wrong and of justice itself. There is plenty of evidence for God's existence but none of it proves it conclusively. There is a place where we come as far as we can in pursuing him in an intellectual manner and the remaining gap requires a leap of faith. This is something that not everyone is prepared to do. It often requires a traumatic event or crisis to make someone desperate enough to leap to faith. I know it did for me.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 04:07 PM
Prior to coming to Christ we must have our doubts answered - but coming to Him is far more than an intellectual exercise.

Think of marriage. Prior to marrying a woman a man must remove most doubts about her - he must know she really loves him, that she's faithful, that she really wants to mary him, etc. This is a logical check list that he may consciously or subconsciously go over. At the same time, he doesn't propose to the woman with a logical syllogism. ;)

yes, that makes sense. Thanks

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 04:14 PM
Oscar, Apothanien makes a valid point here, may I additionally suggest a very rudimentary one that may be of value too.

There is a scripture that says "Taste and see that the Lord is good."

For the sake of this point led us continue in the vein that God had not yet been proven to exist (disregarding "if it were proven but which faith is correct").

Would it be unreasonable to suggest that a sincere prayer to God that he show up on your (intellectual) taste buds is not amiss. To infact: Taste and see if the Lord is good.:P

If he isn't real it will not have been anymore a waste of your time than posting an answer to some of the more aggressive posts you so skillfully blew out of peoples noses (the peanut butter one was hilarious).

If he is real, then you will find that your "intellectual taste buds" will be activated so to speak. This at least will enable you in your sincere search for truth to be able to perceive that which in not able to be perceived by those who are not sincere.

Perhaps you already have prayed to taste and see. If so I did not mean to be presumption. I do recognize that you have been in these boards for quite a while.

DF

yep no problem, I have actually asked for some sign that I could recognize for what it was. It made sense to try, even though I didn't believe it would actually work, I did want it to. ...yeah its pretty crazy that I've been here this long, but people here talk to me about these things and introduce lots of good ideas to me so I like it.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 04:43 PM
I wouldn't even presume to be able to address all your doubts to perfection. In fact, I don't think God wants to do that. If he wanted that done he could easily reveal himself to the world and remove all doubt from anyone's mind. The fact is that God has ordained that man should have faith in him to be saved. He wants us to believe in his plan without fully seeing it. it's almost as if he requires a humiliation of our intellectual pride.His plan even appears foolish to those that perish but to those that are saved his wisdom is revealed. Our original sin was eating from the tree of knowledge. It's interesting that his plan of salvation ,at first glance, appears to violate logic. It doesn't make sense to us that a murderer who has lived his whole life hurting others can be redeemed in an instant just by accepting Jesus's atonement by faith while a seemingly good person,who has contributed much to society and has never hurt a living soul will go to hell if they don't believe. This violates our basic understanding of right and wrong and of justice itself. There is plenty of evidence for God's existence but none of it proves it conclusively. There is a place where we come as far as we can in pursuing him in an intellectual manner and the remaining gap requires a leap of faith. This is something that not everyone is prepared to do. It often requires a traumatic event or crisis to make someone desperate enough to leap to faith. I know it did for me.

yeah, I can agree with most of that.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 04:48 PM
I imagine too, that you would greatly enjoy the writings of C.S.Lewis. His personal letters compendium, and some of the manuscripts he wrote for his radio program during the war (WW2) would likely be immensely useful for your purposes. An Oxford Don and a Christian Apologist with a humble style.

Mere Christianity would be a good one to review. But I must reiterate a point made earlier.... Logic alone will not suffice. At some point the soul must emote. Then the take is real.

DF

I did read Mere Christianity, and I really enjoyed it...C.S. Lewis wrote something beautifully logical and eloquent with that book. The folks around here recommended it to me. thanks for recommending Oxford Don, i'll check out what he has to say.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 04:50 PM
I did read Mere Christianity, and I really enjoyed it...C.S. Lewis wrote something beautifully logical and eloquent with that book. The folks around here recommended it to me. thanks for recommending Oxford Don, i'll check out what he has to say.


I'm sorry, My sentence structure isn't the best sometimes. I meant that C.S.Lewis was an Oxford Don.

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 05:20 PM
I'm sorry, My sentence structure isn't the best sometimes. I meant that C.S.Lewis was an Oxford Don.

lol, nope I'm just retarded, I read that all wrong. hahah I was thinking, wow Oxford Don is a funny name for a person to have :lol:

Jude
Oct 16th 2008, 06:12 PM
I can guess what you mean by this, but could you elaborate a bit?

Quite simply it means in order for you to meet Jesus His Father has to bring you to him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jude

oscarkipling
Oct 16th 2008, 08:06 PM
Quite simply it means in order for you to meet Jesus His Father has to bring you to him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jude

okay thanks jude

Evangelist Smith
Oct 17th 2008, 12:03 PM
nah I cant realistically expect anyone to read all my posts, besides I imagine some of my former opinions are ones that I don't hold anymore anyway. but to answer your question, Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction...I think in that situation, not converting would be insane.Oscar you said , Yes I imagine I would convert to Christianity if all of my doubts and questions were addressed to my satisfaction

Oscar this is all any man woman boy or girl needs to know in order to be saved and that is the Gospel

Jesus died for our sins arose the third day

Oscar Jesus died for your sins that you would be forgiven
arose that you would be justified

and friend there is nothing else that me or anyone else can tell you to persuade you to become a Christian but the Gospel

Jesus suffered bled and died for our sins
He arose the third day that we be justified

This was the ultimate and final payment for the sins of man

the sin debt had been paid

This satisfied the Father

yet so far it hasnt satisfied you

My friend there is no other Gospel that me or anyone else can give you that would bring you to the saving knowledge of God's grace

No other Gospel

The last words of Christ to His Disciples as He was being taken up from this world was

Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature

He did not comission His Disciples to go into the world and discuss everything about everybody else, have all these theological dicussions,

He said

Go preach the Gospel to every creature

Go preach what I have done to save them

Go preach it

So there is nothing else me or anyone here can say that will persuade you to become a Christian but the Gospel

because if Christ dying for your sins does not satisfy you

friend there is nothing else that we can say or do tht will satisfy you to become a Christian

There is no other Gospel

And if any angel or man preach any other Gospel let him be accursed

Thats the Word of God

And you have a choice

you can choose to stay in your sins and die in this lost hopeless state

or you can choose to repent of your sins trusting in Christ and in Christ alone for forgiveness

the ball my friend is in your court

Christ has done all to save you, there is nothing more

HE DID IT ALL

God bless

In His Service
Evang.dare

superwoman8977
Oct 17th 2008, 01:17 PM
Okay well I am a firm believer that your relationship with Christ is just that your realtionship with Him. It doesnt matter what church you go to. I was brought up Catholic and Methodist and now am seeking but hopefully have found a church in the town I live in (not my hometown) and I leave the church in my hometown as my home church and I send a tithe to it every month and participate in some of the programs. My grandparents are also Christians and attend the Catholic church but they have a relationship with the Lord, I was there the night they turned their lives over to Him, and still follow up with regular time in the word and prayer not the hail mary and all that but just plain simple prayer to Him the Heavenly Father.Being a Christian is not based on what church you go to.;)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 25th 2008, 04:16 PM
Oscar,
Question: Do you think they should be regarded as such (Catholics as Christians that is.)

Also, What do you think the criterion for Christianity should be based on your personal current understanding?
DF1

Scruffy Kid
Oct 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
Are Catholics Christians?
well, are they?For me, oscar, the central point that your question brings us is "what is Christian belief and practice?"

What does Christianity Teach?

The Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, OT) recounts how the One God in His goodness and love made all things, and made humankind to share in the blessed life of love which God eternally enjoys. That is, God made humanity "in His own image." Then, when we human beings distorted our own nature, and became full of self-centeredness, arrogance, and addictive evil, God in his mercy and love prepared to rescue us from the destruction into which we had plunged ourselves. He called to Himself Abraham, and Moses, to reveal to them something of Who He Is; and worked through the centuries to give the Israelites, the Jewish people, a clear idea of Himself.

When all was prepared, He then revealed Himself in fullness, sending Jesus Christ as Emanuel -- God with us -- to bring us back to God, in fullness, to rescue us from our sinfulness and bring us forgiveness, and to bring us to everlasting life, that is, to eternal fellowship with God. Jesus was, so the Bible teaches and so Christians believe, the very Word of God, and His teaching was a full and complete revelation of what we need to know to receive all that God intends to do for us -- forgiving, healing, restoring, and bringing us to God and to fellowship with God. All this the greek Scriptures (New Testament, NT) set out for us.

At the center of this teaching is Jesus Himself. Jesus is God's unique, only, and eternal Son and thus it is through Him, and only through Him, that we come to God. Jesus -- unlike any other person in history -- consistently spoke of God as His Father. At the last supper, Jesus told his disciples that He was leaving them to go and be with the Father, saying
" You believe in God: believe in me also ... I go to prepare a place for you! ...
You know where I am going, and you know the way there!"

Thomas said "Lord, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way?!"

Jesus answered, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ...

Philip said, "Lord show us the Father and it will be enough for us!"

Jesus answered: "Don't you yet know me Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father! ... I am in the Father and the Father is in me ..." (John 14:1-10, exerpted) Christianity teaches, on the basis of this and many other things Jesus taught, that the One God, source of all life, goodness, love, being, beauty, and truth eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Moreover, the Christian faith holds that God the Son took human flesh, lived a life as a human being just like us, to be with us, transform human nature, teach us, but most especially to free us from our sins through His death and resurrection. Thus Paul says "I pass on to you as of the first importance what I also received, that Christ Jesus died for our sins, and was raised on the third day, as the Scriptures had foretold" (I Cor. 15:1-3).

This belief, of course, is not mere intellectual belief, but an actual welcoming of God's grace and help through Christ Jesus -- He is Lord of all! -- and a living out of the grace God gives us, in holy lives and in relationship to God, in prayer, worship, thanks, repentance, and so on. As Jesus taught us, we need to repent of our sins, follow him, be baptized, and observe all that He has commanded us.

Returning to your question

Whoever gives his heart and mind to God in this way, through Christ, accepting what Christ has done, and worshipping God alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in seeking to open heart and mind and life to God and His goodness, and believing in Christ and what He has taught (which includes the whole Bible) -- that one is, as I understand it, a Christian.

I myself am a protestant, not in the sense of some party label, but just as a rough descriptioin. For instance, I don't affirm the Roman Catholic theory concerning the Pope's teaching role. Nor do I affirm the Orthodox church's view about the "energies" of God. With respect to all that kind of thing, I sort of think along the lines of Psalm 131: "Lord, I do not concern myself with lofty matters, or things too wonderful for me. I have stilled and quieted my soul, like a weaned child! ... O Israel, put your hope in the Lord, both now and evermore!" I seek to follow the historic and biblical Christian faith, without getting unnecessarily involved in quarrels or peripheral matters that divide Christians. Just following Christ faithfully is more than plenty for me! I'm a kind of scruffy little guy, and following what I know of God is a pretty big task for me, even with all His gracious help! As long as one hews to the Biblical teaching of historic Christianity, I don't want to quarrel -- though I'm always willing to discuss and learn.

Thus it seems to me that faithful Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are Christians, and that Reformed, Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, and Baptists who hold to their churches' historic tachings are Christians -- because all these adhere to the basic Biblical teachings about Christ and God (as set out above), and about how we should live to give ourselves to God.

Understanding basic Christian teaching, and giving our hearts and lives to God is what is really important!

May God bless you, oscar, as you continue to seek to open your heart to the truth as it is found in God!!

Scruff

oscarkipling
Oct 25th 2008, 10:40 PM
Oscar,
Question: Do you think they should be regarded as such (Catholics as Christians that is.)


if there is one thing that has been made clear to me by this thread it is that There are varying definitions of what a christian is. Depending on which definition I were to use i could consider Catholics as either or. Personally I tend to consider Catholics a type of christian, because they believe that Jesus Christ is God and they worship him, but obviously I am by no means a Christian and I don't consider my definition to be any more than a personal construction.



Also, What do you think the criterion for Christianity should be based on your personal current understanding?
DF1

there are a couple of ways to answer this, if I were going to attempt to answer this in a way that I would consider to be in accordance to the beliefs of some Christians here, it would be quite different than my actual beliefs on the requisites of a Christian. As I currently understand it, common to all Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ is God and Savior of man, a person must in some way knowledge this and repent for their sins. After this though there appears to be some dissonance between individuals and sects. So I can only reasonably include this as the basic requirement. I have tried in other threads to work out other details, but I can't honestly say that I believe that even the Christians here even truly agree or even understand each other on most any issue beyond this.

oscarkipling
Oct 25th 2008, 10:41 PM
For me, oscar, the central point that your question brings us is "what is Christian belief and practice?"

What does Christianity Teach?

The Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, OT) recounts how the One God in His goodness and love made all things, and made humankind to share in the blessed life of love which God eternally enjoys. That is, God made humanity "in His own image." Then, when we human beings distorted our own nature, and became full of self-centeredness, arrogance, and addictive evil, God in his mercy and love prepared to rescue us from the destruction into which we had plunged ourselves. He called to Himself Abraham, and Moses, to reveal to them something of Who He Is; and worked through the centuries to give the Israelites, the Jewish people, a clear idea of Himself.

When all was prepared, He then revealed Himself in fullness, sending Jesus Christ as Emanuel -- God with us -- to bring us back to God, in fullness, to rescue us from our sinfulness and bring us forgiveness, and to bring us to everlasting life, that is, to eternal fellowship with God. Jesus was, so the Bible teaches and so Christians believe, the very Word of God, and His teaching was a full and complete revelation of what we need to know to receive all that God intends to do for us -- forgiving, healing, restoring, and bringing us to God and to fellowship with God. All this the greek Scriptures (New Testament, NT) set out for us.

At the center of this teaching is Jesus Himself. Jesus is God's unique, only, and eternal Son and thus it is through Him, and only through Him, that we come to God. Jesus -- unlike any other person in history -- consistently spoke of God as His Father. At the last supper, Jesus told his disciples that He was leaving them to go and be with the Father, saying
" You believe in God: believe in me also ... I go to prepare a place for you! ...
You know where I am going, and you know the way there!"

Thomas said "Lord, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way?!"

Jesus answered, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ...

Philip said, "Lord show us the Father and it will be enough for us!"

Jesus answered: "Don't you yet know me Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father! ... I am in the Father and the Father is in me ..." (John 14:1-10, exerpted)Christianity teaches, on the basis of this and many other things Jesus taught, that the One God, source of all life, goodness, love, being, beauty, and truth eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Moreover, the Christian faith holds that God the Son took human flesh, lived a life as a human being just like us, to be with us, transform human nature, teach us, but most especially to free us from our sins through His death and resurrection. Thus Paul says "I pass on to you as of the first importance what I also received, that Christ Jesus died for our sins, and was raised on the third day, as the Scriptures had foretold" (I Cor. 15:1-3).

This belief, of course, is not mere intellectual belief, but an actual welcoming of God's grace and help through Christ Jesus -- He is Lord of all! -- and a living out of the grace God gives us, in holy lives and in relationship to God, in prayer, worship, thanks, repentance, and so on. As Jesus taught us, we need to repent of our sins, follow him, be baptized, and observe all that He has commanded us.

Returning to your question

Whoever gives his heart and mind to God in this way, through Christ, accepting what Christ has done, and worshipping God alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in seeking to open heart and mind and life to God and His goodness, and believing in Christ and what He has taught (which includes the whole Bible) -- that one is, as I understand it, a Christian.

I myself am a protestant, not in the sense of some party label, but just as a rough descriptioin. For instance, I don't affirm the Roman Catholic theory concerning the Pope's teaching role. Nor do I affirm the Orthodox church's view about the "energies" of God. With respect to all that kind of thing, I sort of think along the lines of Psalm 131: "Lord, I do not concern myself with lofty matters, or things too wonderful for me. I have stilled and quieted my soul, like a weaned child! ... O Israel, put your hope in the Lord, both now and evermore!" I seek to follow the historic and biblical Christian faith, without getting unnecessarily involved in quarrels or peripheral matters that divide Christians. Just following Christ faithfully is more than plenty for me! I'm a kind of scruffy little guy, and following what I know of God is a pretty big task for me, even with all His gracious help! As long as one hews to the Biblical teaching of historic Christianity, I don't want to quarrel -- though I'm always willing to discuss and learn.

Thus it seems to me that faithful Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are Christians, and that Reformed, Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, and Baptists who hold to their churches' historic tachings are Christians -- because all these adhere to the basic Biblical teachings about Christ and God (as set out above), and about how we should live to give ourselves to God.

Understanding basic Christian teaching, and giving our hearts and lives to God is what is really important!

May God bless you, oscar, as you continue to seek to open your heart to the truth as it is found in God!!

Scruff


very fine like grape juice, thanks

Dragonfighter1
Oct 26th 2008, 03:07 AM
if there is one thing that has been made clear to me by this thread it is that There are varying definitions of what a christian is. Depending on which definition I were to use i could consider Catholics as either or. Personally I tend to consider Catholics a type of
christian, because they believe that Jesus Christ is God and they worship him, but obviously I am by no means a Christian and I don't consider my definition to be any more than a personal construction.

there are a couple of ways to answer this, if I were going to attempt to answer this in a way that I would consider to be in accordance to the beliefs of some Christians here, it would be quite different than my actual beliefs on the requisites of a Christian. As I currently understand it, common to all Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ is God and Savior of man, a person must in some way knowledge this and repent for their sins. After this though there appears to be some dissonance between individuals and sects. So I can only reasonably include this as the basic requirement. I have tried in other threads to work out other details, but I can't honestly say that I believe that even the Christians here even truly agree or even understand each other on most any issue beyond this.
Well Oscar, I have to say you just hit the nail on the head!

Your personal construct on answer one is about as accurate as can be achieved until Christians establish consensus themselves. "But that ain't gonna happen"...we are often too busy biting each other to realize there are better things to chew on!:lol:

Answer #2 spot on too. It is in fact the only rational answer to give under the circumstances.

I think you should abandon this thread and start a new one on a matter the piques your interest.

How about asking a question that guarantees entertaining posts from rednecks?:rofl:

OK. NO that was naughty of me.. Bad Dragon fighter, Bad Dragon fighter, spank spank!

Dani H
Oct 26th 2008, 03:25 AM
Oscar,

if you want to know what a real Christian is, then look at Jesus, and there you have it. Because Christian, after you remove all the fluff, really means a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus never told anybody to become a "Christian," He just told us to follow Him, and learn from Him. But we like to label things, and even ourselves, because I think we're comfortable with boxing ourselves in, because that in turn helps us to box in other people, too. Problem is, we often end up boxing in God Himself, and that's when it gets slippery and we get way off-base.

You can easily see Christianity in its purest sense has nothing to do with the physical churches we attend, nor any denomination we claim adherence to, which is just man-made fluff. It doesn't matter what we say, it only matters how God defines things.

So, if you think about the master-disciple relationship, as put forth by such movies as Star Wars and the like, then maybe it'll help you understand things a bit better. :)

Foghorn
Oct 26th 2008, 04:47 AM
well, are they?The best way to discern is by scripture. What do they teach? What do they believe?

ananias
Oct 26th 2008, 02:32 PM
Man, this was an interesting thread. I must say, Oscar, I admire your honesty and straight-forward, non-confrontational replies. You're refreshingly open-minded toward Christianity compared to most non-Christians.

I personally don't believe that Catholicism, in all it's "parts", is true Christianity, since a lot of its teaching and practices is contrary to the Bible, IMO.

But only Jesus knows where His sheep are found, and since He said that His sheep are those who know His voice, it means that His sheep can often be found sitting in "pews" in many different buildings with many different titles on the outside - but more than that, His sheep remain His sheep even when they're not sitting in pews.

I understand fully where you are coming from with the "not believing" thing, because I too, was a non-believer in Jesus until the day (over 20 years ago now) that God Himself opened my eyes through piercing my heart. But I'm not going bore you by making you read yet another "testimony".

Suffice to say that what I and others know, see and understand, can only be understood, known and seen spiritually - all the evidence and logic under the sun cannot make someone believe what he can't see - and no-one can see (spiritually) until the Spirit of Christ causes him/her to see (when God the Father draws him/her to Christ).

When I began to believe, I began to believe despite myself - because (I'm now ashamed to say), before that day, I was 100% totally an unbeliever, who believed that (what I now see, know and understand to be true) was "simplistic nonsense" believed only by "simple-minded folk" (in this regard your attitude is 1000 times better than mine was). If anyone had said to me even that morning (the morning before my conversion) that by the time I went to sleep that night, I would be a Christian, I would have said, "Never. Not in a million years". But praise God, He had other plans for me, and so by God's grace I received mercy enough for my heart to be pierced by the Holy Spirit and my need of my Savior to become manifest to me.

I often advise people who admit that they don't believe, yet sincerely desire to know the truth, that they should get on their knees privately one day and in sincerity of heart simply ASK God if these things be true. You may or may not receive your answer immediately (it may take months or even years), but the One who "desires truth in the inward part" will, in His perfect timing, reveal the truth to you by His eternal Spirit. I frimly believe this because I prayed that prayer once (in a rare moment of doubt about what at the time was my own beliefs in reincarnation, "the evolution of the soul" and "karma"), and I prayed that prayer months before I was converted, and I only remembered that I'd prayed such a prayer years after I was converted. If someone like me can make such a 180-degree about-turn and never look back, then even the hardest nut can be cracked by the Spirit of God - and your heart doesn't come anywhere near the category of the hardest, by the sound of things.

ananias