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Partaker of Christ
Oct 1st 2008, 01:55 PM
Could the rapture be the length of the Trib?

The are many good scriptural arguments for 'pre', 'mid', 'post' tribulation rapture, but could it be possible that the 'one' rapture could begin around pre, and end at post (each in their own time)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I know it says that we will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ), but does that mean we (who are alive and remain) will be caught up 'at the same time'?

Optimis
Oct 1st 2008, 02:07 PM
I think God is big enough to have that answer.

Jehu10842
Oct 1st 2008, 02:24 PM
It makes sense to me. The dead (saved) will be resurrected and then the live (saved) will rise up to meet him. The unsaved have already been taken at this point. That's why it says "alive AND REMAIN".

Just in case you're one of those who have bought into the idea that the saved will be taken out of the world before the unsaved. Read about it in the book of Matthew. The wicked will be gathered out of the righteous.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:51 AM
"In the twinkling of an eye"

"In an instant, we will ALL be changed."

Sounds like one instantaneous occurrence to me.

DIZZY
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:38 AM
It makes sense to me. The dead (saved) will be resurrected and then the live (saved) will rise up to meet him. The unsaved have already been taken at this point. That's why it says "alive AND REMAIN".

Just in case you're one of those who have bought into the idea that the saved will be taken out of the world before the unsaved. Read about it in the book of Matthew. The wicked will be gathered out of the righteous.


Hi Jehu,



Just in case you're one of those who have bought into the idea that the saved will be taken out of the world before the unsaved. Read about it in the book of Matthew. The wicked will be gathered out of the righteous.

I think you will find that happens at the end of the tribulation period. The church will be raptured before the hour of tribulation comes on the earth.
The tribulation is God's and Satan's wrath on mankind.

divaD
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:13 PM
The tribulation is God's and Satan's wrath on mankind.



May I ask where in Scriptures you base this on, when Revelation 11:18 pretty much contradicts your claim that God's wrath is poured out in the trib?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


You're going to have to show with Scriptures how both your claim, and the fact that this verse is speaking after the trib, can be true at the same time.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Here it is clearly seen as to what transpires after the trib.

If you'll look back in Revelation 11:15 you'll notice that the 7th angel has just sounded.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jehu10842
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:33 PM
Hi Jehu,



I think you will find that happens at the end of the tribulation period. The church will be raptured before the hour of tribulation comes on the earth.
The tribulation is God's and Satan's wrath on mankind.

So, you've bought into the futurist interpretation of the Apocalypse. Have you ever studied the historical interpretation? I'm thinking not. I hope you do. It's one of the most faith building things I've ever done. You get a chance to see how history has been unfolding according to God's word for the last 2,000 years.

You probably believe the futurist interpretation because that's what you were first taught. We have that in common. The opening verses in the Book of Revealation says that these things must SHORTLY begin to come to pass. Everyone I know that has studied both will say that the historical interpretation makes more sense.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:20 PM
"In the twinkling of an eye"

"In an instant, we will ALL be changed."

Sounds like one instantaneous occurrence to me.

Hi LL!

Yes, but is that 'ALL' and 'instantaneous' = at the same time?

It says the dead first, then we who are alive. That is not at the same time.

Also it says we will all be 'changed', In the twinkling of an eye, it does not say 'caught up' In the twinkling of an eye.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 3rd 2008, 01:54 AM
Hi LL!

Yes, but is that 'ALL' and 'instantaneous' = at the same time?

It says the dead first, then we who are alive. That is not at the same time.

Also it says we will all be 'changed', In the twinkling of an eye, it does not say 'caught up' In the twinkling of an eye.I've shown Scriptures that support a one-time instant Rapture. What Scriptures do you have that support a gradual phased Rapture? It's an interesting theory, but without Scriptural support, that's all it is, a theory.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 3rd 2008, 09:18 PM
I've shown Scriptures that support a one-time instant Rapture. What Scriptures do you have that support a gradual phased Rapture? It's an interesting theory, but without Scriptural support, that's all it is, a theory.

With respect LL, and I do enjoy your end time posts, but my theory comes from the same scripture that you gave.

It does say:

"In the twinkling of an eye"

"In an instant, we will ALL be changed."

That does not have to mean (a) raptured, and/or (b) 'all' at the same time.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 4th 2008, 02:26 AM
With respect LL, and I do enjoy your end time posts, but my theory comes from the same scripture that you gave.

It does say:

"In the twinkling of an eye"

"In an instant, we will ALL be changed."

That does not have to mean (a) raptured, and/or (b) 'all' at the same time.But it doesn't support a gradual Rapture either. Where in the Bible do you get the idea that the Rapture is going to be an ongoing process?

Gods Child
Oct 4th 2008, 03:07 AM
I would have to agree that “in a moment and in a twinkle of an eye” is to say that it comes quickly – all at once.

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

A flash of lightning is seen before thunder is even heard. Which shows us that it will be in a instant/moment as lightning is quick.

******************

Also, Rev 20:4-5, we are told that this is the 1st resurrection and places this 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast. So I can not see how there could be a 1st resurrection anytime prior to after the mark of the beast, because we are shown here that the 1st resurrection (rapture) happens after the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I see nothing in scripture that shows or even implies that the rapture happens throughout the whole tribulation.

IPet2_9
Oct 4th 2008, 03:37 AM
Could the rapture be the length of the Trib?

I think that is very plausible. It goes back to a definition of terms, though. The question is, is the part where we are changed in the twinkling of an eye...is that the entire rapture?

I was actually paying serious thought to this before you brought it up. Maybe the rapture occurs over some prolonged period of time, but the changing of our bodies itself occurs in a twinkling of an eye? That part of it I'm sure is instantaneous.

ross3421
Oct 4th 2008, 04:33 AM
It makes sense to me. The dead (saved) will be resurrected and then the live (saved) will rise up to meet him. The unsaved have already been taken at this point. That's why it says "alive AND REMAIN".

Just in case you're one of those who have bought into the idea that the saved will be taken out of the world before the unsaved. Read about it in the book of Matthew. The wicked will be gathered out of the righteous.

The dead in Christ resurrected are those which are alive and remain.....

ross3421
Oct 4th 2008, 04:36 AM
Hi LL!

Yes, but is that 'ALL' and 'instantaneous' = at the same time?

It says the dead first, then we who are alive. That is not at the same time.

Also it says we will all be 'changed', In the twinkling of an eye, it does not say 'caught up' In the twinkling of an eye.

The dead in Christ resurrected are those which are alive and remain..... The are one in the same.....

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

DIZZY
Oct 4th 2008, 07:30 AM
May I ask where in Scriptures you base this on, when Revelation 11:18 pretty much contradicts your claim that God's wrath is poured out in the trib?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


You're going to have to show with Scriptures how both your claim, and the fact that this verse is speaking after the trib, can be true at the same time.


Hi divaD,

Revelation 6:12-17
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

We find the start of God's wrath at the beginning of the tribulation and a question is put forth. Who is able to stand?



Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here it is clearly seen as to what transpires after the trib.


You are correct what happens in the above verse does transpire at the end of the tribulation period.



If you'll look back in Revelation 11:15 you'll notice that the 7th angel has just sounded.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


But. Yes there is a but, the verse above you have placed in the wrong place. Yes it says the kingdoms are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Yes the kingdoms belong to the Lord but He has not received them as yet, and He does not take them back fully until His return.

It's like when our Olympians went to Beijing they won a Gold medal for an event. They owned the Gold medal but they didn't receive it until they had prepared themselves before hand to receive the medal.

Then they went up to the podium and received their Gold medal.

Although they owned the medal they had not received it straight away.

Just as this verse is saying the kingdoms belongs to our Lord that is a sure thing. But He has not received it to Himself at that point in time. Not until Revelation 19 when he returns with His armies and takes back what rightfully belongs to Him.

Once again the verse you quoted is just saying it is a sure thing and it will be done.

DIZZY
Oct 4th 2008, 11:12 AM
So, you've bought into the futurist interpretation of the Apocalypse. Have you ever studied the historical interpretation? I'm thinking not. I hope you do. It's one of the most faith building things I've ever done. You get a chance to see how history has been unfolding according to God's word for the last 2,000 years.

You probably believe the futurist interpretation because that's what you were first taught. We have that in common. The opening verses in the Book of Revealation says that these things must SHORTLY begin to come to pass. Everyone I know that has studied both will say that the historical interpretation makes more sense.

Hi Jehu,
Well if I am a futurist then let it be so. The Bible staits that those who believe in Jesus Christ will not suffer God's wrath during the tribulation period.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


Revelation 1:1-3
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.




Revelation 1- 3 talks about the church era and what takes place in the church era.

If we look at Rev 3:10 the Bible tells us that will be kept from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church is raptured before the tribulation starts.

Revelation 4 talks about what happens after the church era.

Revelation 4:1
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

After seeing what happens to the church John is shown what takes place after it is gone.

danield
Oct 4th 2008, 02:43 PM
Matthew 24:27 27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

This clearly shows that his return will come as fast as lightning. I feel certain that our departure will be as equally as fast especially when coupled with this scripture

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51 ¶ But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever.


So be ready for when it happens because it will occur in a twinkling of an eye just as lightning flashes across the sky! And those who have oil in their lamp will rise to meet our lord and savior at the great wedding feast. It will be the day of our lord's return!

God Bless!

divaD
Oct 5th 2008, 12:19 AM
Revelation 6:12-17
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs
when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island
was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men,
every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains
and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the
great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

We find the start of God's wrath at the beginning of the tribulation and a question is put forth. Who is able to stand?

Quote:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.




Hi Dizzy. How do you come to these conclusions from the above passages?

Matthew 24:29 states, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Revelation 6:12-13 states, 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs
when it is shaken by a mighty wind.


I don't know, but it appears to me when the 6th seal is opened, the trib(wrath of satan) is ending, and that the wrath of the Lamb is beginning to get underway. The question raised in Rev 6:14, and who is able to stand?, is obviously in reference to those that will be the direct targets of the wrath of the Lamb, which obviously won't be the saints, but will be the ungodly ones.

So I'm still uncertain as to what I got backwards?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 7th 2008, 12:25 AM
But it doesn't support a gradual Rapture either. Where in the Bible do you get the idea that the Rapture is going to be an ongoing process?

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

After being shown the things that are, John is shown things that are hereafter.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are the four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment?
I take it that these are of the dead in Christ.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

(seems before the seals are open) Who is it that is "redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"?

Could these be the dead in Christ 'first', or those who have been kept from the hour the of temptation?
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Could these be from the first four seals, and they were given white robes. Would they be given white robes if they had not been raised from the dead?

Rev 7:1 And after these things: (the sixth seal, and before the seventh seal)
*The seventh seal has the seven trumpets.

The seal of the 144 thousand, then:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Here is a question (I don't say that this is what I believe, but it is a thought)
Could the five wise virgins who had oil, be those who were taken at the begining, and the five foolish virgins be of those who had to go through the hour of testing (were there was weeping and gnashing of teeth)

jeffweeder
Oct 7th 2008, 01:10 AM
I know it says that we will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ), but does that mean we (who are alive and remain) will be caught up 'at the same time'?

I think it has to.
The we are the ones that are alive when Jesus descends and the dead are raised , and together with them we rise to meet the lord.
Every believer whether dead or alive will be changed in a twinkle of the eye and before you know it we'll all be in his arms.- Look how fast phillip moved in the Spirit.

Besides Jesus said he was coming after the tribulation on the last day to raise us (or change us) ,so that rules out being raptured before Trib, as the living cannot precede to him first.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 7th 2008, 10:45 AM
I think it has to.
The we are the ones that are alive when Jesus descends and the dead are raised , and together with them we rise to meet the lord.
Every believer whether dead or alive will be changed in a twinkle of the eye and before you know it we'll all be in his arms.- Look how fast phillip moved in the Spirit.

Besides Jesus said he was coming after the tribulation on the last day to raise us (or change us) ,so that rules out being raptured before Trib, as the living cannot precede to him first.

Hi Jeffweeder!

Thanks for the imput.

Together with them, can mean 'to be with them', or to gather to them that are already there.

The problem seems to be that there are 'dead in Christ' dressed in white robes, before the opening of the seals. Then there are others further on who are dressed in white robes, and still more upto the final trumpet sounding.

There are some, then there are ten thousand x ten thousands, and thousands of thousands. Then there are a number that cannot be counted.

DIZZY
Oct 7th 2008, 11:08 AM
Hi Dizzy. How do you come to these conclusions from the above passages?

Matthew 24:29 states, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Revelation 6:12-13 states, 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs
when it is shaken by a mighty wind.


I don't know, but it appears to me when the 6th seal is opened, the trib(wrath of satan) is ending, and that the wrath of the Lamb is beginning to get underway. The question raised in Rev 6:14, and who is able to stand?, is obviously in reference to those that will be the direct targets of the wrath of the Lamb, which obviously won't be the saints, but will be the ungodly ones.

So I'm still uncertain as to what I got backwards?


Hi DivaD,
I don't know what you got backwards, I just know Christ doesn't receive the kingdoms until after Rev 11

Rev 6:14-17
14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

In the next chapter we find the answer to who is able to stand.

Rev 7:1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

The 144,000 are able to stand firm when it comes to the wrath of God for God has sealed them for a special purpose. The 144,000 have been chosen from amoung man to be witness during the tribulation period and there is nothing that can harm them. It is simalar to what happened in Ezekiel 9 those who had the mark of God in their foreheads were protected from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 9:4-7
and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city.

So the 144,000 are the ones who are able to stand. They will witness to the lost and many will come to the full knowledge of the truth through their preaching and they will be saved.

Those who are saved during the tribulation are not protected from Satans wrath during that time. They will be put to death, they will not worship the beast or his image. Satans wrath does not end at chapter 5 or 6 it continues throughout the book of Revelation.

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 11:27 AM
Could the rapture be the length of the Trib?

The are many good scriptural arguments for 'pre', 'mid', 'post' tribulation rapture, but could it be possible that the 'one' rapture could begin around pre, and end at post (each in their own time)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I know it says that we will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ), but does that mean we (who are alive and remain) will be caught up 'at the same time'?

According to the following, at the rapture death is swallowed up in victory.

Is 25:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

1 Cor 15:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That does not happen until the day of judgment, which is after the thousand years are finished.

Firstfruits

jeffweeder
Oct 8th 2008, 12:25 AM
Together with them, can mean 'to be with them', or to gather to them that are already there.

I think that from the instant we are all changed and raised , time is not a factor as we will be in the spirit.

Time comes to an end the last day, and in no time at all we will be like him for we shall see him as he is.
Everything about the end---his coming----the judgement----the ressurection, has a swiftness about it.


Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."




Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

David Taylor
Oct 8th 2008, 09:05 AM
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are the four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment?
I take it that these are of the dead in Christ.

Why so? Scripture never tells us the 24 Elders = the dead in Christ.

What if we just allow the dead in Christ to be the dead in Christ; and the 24 elders to be the 24 elders?

We do know from the Scriptures, that the 24 elders and all of the heavenly host and heavenly temple were used as patterns for the Earthly temple. Hebrews tells us the heavenly was the pattern used for the earthly.

We also know for the Chronicles; that the earthly temple was patterned after the heavenly and it is more natural to understand that the 24 elders were what the earthly temple patterned the 24 priests after.

In all cases where the 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation; they are unique to themselves; never applied figuratively to another group; and they are also almost always associated with the other heavenly beings; the 4 living creatures; and the angels.

So who is in Heaven?
The Omnipresent Trinity;
The 4 living beasts;
The 24 Elders;
The souls of the redeemed who have died;
Waldo:cool:. (just a joke to see if anyone was paying attention)






Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

(seems before the seals are open) Who is it that is "redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"?

Could these be the dead in Christ 'first', or those who have been kept from the hour the of temptation?

No it is the dead redeemed of all ages who are in Heaven with the Lord right now; from Abel to John the Baptist; from Stephen to Paul and all the myriads of the redeemed who have come out of every kindred, tongue, tribe, and nation throughout the great Harvest era....





I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

'Keep the from', is the Greek phrase 'terou ek'; and in proper New Testament Context; is to protect during; not remove.

It is used only one other place in the N.T.

Jesus explained 'keep thee from' as meaning protection through; not removal from the planet.

John 17:15 Jesus taught, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one".

Never in Biblical history has God ever removed His redeemed from the planet to protect them; but dozens of times to the contrary; does He protect the faithful during events; so that His name is glorified; and new people receive that testimony, repent and believe and turn to Him.





Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Could these be from the first four seals, and they were given white robes. Would they be given white robes if they had not been raised from the dead?


White robes aren't clothing; they are symbolic of thier sins being washed away; them being faithful believers redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb; who are at that point now, in Heaven.

They are those who died for the Lord; as it specfically associates them with further fellowbrethren who are yet to die for the Lord.

Count Stephen among them.

It's a group of heavenly believers which has been growing year after year; as more and more people give their lives for the Lord.





Rev 7:1 And after these things: (the sixth seal, and before the seventh seal)
*The seventh seal has the seven trumpets.

The seal of the 144 thousand, then:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Here is a question (I don't say that this is what I believe, but it is a thought)
Could the five wise virgins who had oil, be those who were taken at the begining, and the five foolish virgins be of those who had to go through the hour of testing (were there was weeping and gnashing of teeth)

More likely the ones who were married to Christ were married to Him at His Return, at the midnight hour; (not before that) and those who weren't ready were cast out into outer darkenss, where the worm dieth not, and there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is the parallel perspective Matthew 24 and 25 gives in each of its accounts of the just and the unjust; and it gives that account several times over; to stress the parallel.

The only coming Matthew 24-25 mentions; is the one in power and glory that occurs after the tribulation; when the wicked are cast into the eternal flames.