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keck553
Oct 1st 2008, 09:31 PM
"And God made (worked) the firmament, and divided the waters whcih were under the firmament from the waters which were over the firmament; and it was so" - Genesis 1:7

"Thus, the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work (workmanship) which he had made (worked). And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work (workmanship) which God created and made (worked)." - Genesis 2:1-3

Modern evangelical Christians tend to treat the word 'work' as a dirty word. Many are taken aback when the 's' is added to the end of 'work.' It is interesting that we have negative feelings about a word in a noun form, and yet as a verb, we don't. Everyone has good feelings about the word "gift", and yet the verb "give" has some negative connotations because it implies personal sacrifice. So, how does one arrive at the things we call "works" if the actions of "work" are not undertaken? How can the actions or "work" be good-and the noun describing it he bad?

Ephesians 2:8 says: "(we are saved)....not of works, lest anyone should boast." And then in the next verse it says "...we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works...."

then James in 2:20 says "....faith without works is dead."

Clearly we need to understand teh relationship between the verb "to work" and the noun "works" - perhaps we can clarify the intent of these verses.

Noting Genesis 2:1-3, the noun "work" can sometimes be confused with the noun "to work." English does this well. It really tells much about oour perceptions of work, what 'work' is. We use the word as a verb and as a noun almost interchangeably, sometimes in ways we cannot readily distinguish. When we say we are 'going to go to work', do we mean we are going to go to a place to do work, or are we going to a place called work? Here is a snapshot of the western mindset - the confusion between symbolism and substance, between thinking and doing..

The primary Hebrew word used for the verb "to work" is "asah". "Asah" is one of the most frequently used verbs in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is often rendered "do" or "made" in English. It is a word that carries some of the same cut and dried approach when we say "just do it!"

The first occurance of "asah" is in Genesis 1:7. It gives us an idea of how we approach the word 'work', and our responsibilit to doing it.

Genesis 1:6 "Then God said, 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 "And God made (worked) the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

God's creative acts are found in verb form in verse 1-6, so why use this "to work" verb here in verse 7? Why didn't God simply continue to use the previous verbs used to describe His creative actions? Surely there is significance to each of the verbs used to descible what God did in the act of creation. For instance, in verse 4, God 'divided' the light from the darkenss. In verse 7, God divided the firmament (expanse). Like verse four, this is a creative act that is worthy of study in itself, but we learn that the action of "dividing" in verse 7 is preceded by the "making" of the object that would be used in the act of dividing later on - specifically that God "made (asah)" the firmament. The focus is on the word "asah (work)". The object that God worked (asah) apparently had a purpose - that is ti serve as a division or separator between "the wates above" and "the waters below." The creative act of "making" is the word "asah." Notice in verse 6 he "said" for this "to be" - and then follows it up in verse 7 with doing it.

The principles laid out in Ezekiel 22:26 seem to apply here - the principals of "tamei (unclean) and t'hor (clean) and chol (profane) and K'dosh (Holy). In this verse, God identified ways for determining, and hence, choosing between things. He gave two particular realms to see distinction:

tamei vs. t'hor (unclean vs. clean)
chol vs. K'dosh (profane (or common) vs. holy (or sanctified)

The primary purpose for giving a way to discern in these areas was to teach how to divide or separate. In the realm of 'tamei' vs. t'hor. we can see specific instructions for God's people to make daily choices in quote common things, for example what to eat, wear, etc. Although the word "tamei" is not specifically used in relation to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, the realm is the same - what Adam and Eve were to NOT EAT as opposed to what they COULD EAT. God gave a choice to them in this - and a way to divide (choose) between what would give whokeness (tree of life) and what would bring fragmentation and brokeness (tree of knowledge of good and evil).

God uses these principles to teach us to exercise our 'chooser' and learn to divide and separate between what He desires for us and what we desire for ourselves.

So, right back to Genesis 1:7 - and the use of the word "asah". God made (asah) something to serve a purpose of separating two things He was dividing. so the word "asah" also serves that purpose for us. When we 'work' (or do) we are making something that serves as a divider - a separator between things.

In the Sepuagint, "asah" is translated "poieo." Poieo is first used in the NT in Matthew 1:24:

"The Joseph being raised from sleep did (poieo) as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife."

We see the Joseph had a choice - obey or disobey. His choice constituted a 'division' or separation between the two. He was able to discern the correct path and take it.

In many verses in the Bible (I can list many if asked), our passive practices continue to be challenged. We are challenged to do, not simply think.

"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savioour toward man appeared, not by the works of righteoousness which we have done (poieo), but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Messiah Yeshua our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:4-7

What we are uncovering in these action words is not a method for achieving righteousness - but rather the responsibility of those who have been declared righteous by grace. Righteous works are what the righteous do, because the obey the Righteous One - God. We continue to se that the 'works' we work (asah, poieo) are given to us -- as a responsibility and as a gift -

"For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works, whcih God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Eph 2:10

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:13 AM
"And God made (worked) the firmament, and divided the waters whcih were under the firmament from the waters which were over the firmament; and it was so" - Genesis 1:7

"Thus, the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work (workmanship) which he had made (worked). And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work (workmanship) which God created and made (worked)." - Genesis 2:1-3

Modern evangelical Christians tend to treat the word 'work' as a dirty word. Many are taken aback when the 's' is added to the end of 'work.' It is interesting that we have negative feelings about a word in a noun form, and yet as a verb, we don't. Everyone has good feelings about the word "gift", and yet the verb "give" has some negative connotations because it implies personal sacrifice. So, how does one arrive at the things we call "works" if the actions of "work" are not undertaken? How can the actions or "work" be good-and the noun describing it he bad?

Ephesians 2:8 says: "(we are saved)....not of works, lest anyone should boast." And then in the next verse it says "...we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works...."

then James in 2:20 says "....faith without works is dead."

Clearly we need to understand teh relationship between the verb "to work" and the noun "works" - perhaps we can clarify the intent of these verses.

Noting Genesis 2:1-3, the noun "work" can sometimes be confused with the noun "to work." English does this well. It really tells much about oour perceptions of work, what 'work' is. We use the word as a verb and as a noun almost interchangeably, sometimes in ways we cannot readily distinguish. When we say we are 'going to go to work', do we mean we are going to go to a place to do work, or are we going to a place called work? Here is a snapshot of the western mindset - the confusion between symbolism and substance, between thinking and doing..

The primary Hebrew word used for the verb "to work" is "asah". "Asah" is one of the most frequently used verbs in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is often rendered "do" or "made" in English. It is a word that carries some of the same cut and dried approach when we say "just do it!"

The first occurance of "asah" is in Genesis 1:7. It gives us an idea of how we approach the word 'work', and our responsibilit to doing it.

Genesis 1:6 "Then God said, 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 "And God made (worked) the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

God's creative acts are found in verb form in verse 1-6, so why use this "to work" verb here in verse 7? Why didn't God simply continue to use the previous verbs used to describe His creative actions? Surely there is significance to each of the verbs used to descible what God did in the act of creation. For instance, in verse 4, God 'divided' the light from the darkenss. In verse 7, God divided the firmament (expanse). Like verse four, this is a creative act that is worthy of study in itself, but we learn that the action of "dividing" in verse 7 is preceded by the "making" of the object that would be used in the act of dividing later on - specifically that God "made (asah)" the firmament. The focus is on the word "asah (work)". The object that God worked (asah) apparently had a purpose - that is ti serve as a division or separator between "the wates above" and "the waters below." The creative act of "making" is the word "asah." Notice in verse 6 he "said" for this "to be" - and then follows it up in verse 7 with doing it.

The principles laid out in Ezekiel 22:26 seem to apply here - the principals of "tamei (unclean) and t'hor (clean) and chol (profane) and K'dosh (Holy). In this verse, God identified ways for determining, and hence, choosing between things. He gave two particular realms to see distinction:

tamei vs. t'hor (unclean vs. clean)
chol vs. K'dosh (profane (or common) vs. holy (or sanctified)

The primary purpose for giving a way to discern in these areas was to teach how to divide or separate. In the realm of 'tamei' vs. t'hor. we can see specific instructions for God's people to make daily choices in quote common things, for example what to eat, wear, etc. Although the word "tamei" is not specifically used in relation to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, the realm is the same - what Adam and Eve were to NOT EAT as opposed to what they COULD EAT. God gave a choice to them in this - and a way to divide (choose) between what would give whokeness (tree of life) and what would bring fragmentation and brokeness (tree of knowledge of good and evil).

God uses these principles to teach us to exercise our 'chooser' and learn to divide and separate between what He desires for us and what we desire for ourselves.

So, right back to Genesis 1:7 - and the use of the word "asah". God made (asah) something to serve a purpose of separating two things He was dividing. so the word "asah" also serves that purpose for us. When we 'work' (or do) we are making something that serves as a divider - a separator between things.

In the Sepuagint, "asah" is translated "poieo." Poieo is first used in the NT in Matthew 1:24:

"The Joseph being raised from sleep did (poieo) as the angel of the LORD had bidden him, and took unto him his wife."

We see the Joseph had a choice - obey or disobey. His choice constituted a 'division' or separation between the two. He was able to discern the correct path and take it.

In many verses in the Bible (I can list many if asked), our passive practices continue to be challenged. We are challenged to do, not simply think.

"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savioour toward man appeared, not by the works of righteoousness which we have done (poieo), but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Messiah Yeshua our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:4-7

What we are uncovering in these action words is not a method for achieving righteousness - but rather the responsibility of those who have been declared righteous by grace. Righteous works are what the righteous do, because the obey the Righteous One - God. We continue to se that the 'works' we work (asah, poieo) are given to us -- as a responsibility and as a gift -

"For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works, whcih God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Eph 2:10

What therefore are the works of righteousness according to the word?

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:44 PM
What God says is. :) Everything else is common.

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:25 PM
What God says is. :) Everything else is common.

Is that righteousness according to the gospel of Christ?

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:45 PM
Is that righteousness according to the gospel of Christ?

Firstfruits

Is the God of the Gospel some new-aged God that replaced the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:00 PM
Is the God of the Gospel some new-aged God that replaced the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Rom 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is what God promised Abraham.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:11 PM
I'm all confused again. Not with the Scripture, but with your question.

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 07:44 AM
I'm all confused again. Not with the Scripture, but with your question.

What are the works of righteousness by which we should live?

What is the righteousness of the Gospel of Christ?

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:01 PM
The only righteous works are those defined by God. Anything else is common, no matter how good we think our intentions are.

Firstfruits
Oct 3rd 2008, 06:36 PM
The only righteous works are those defined by God. Anything else is common, no matter how good we think our intentions are.

Are all works of righteousness valid in the sight of God?

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:14 PM
depends on the heart condition and motivation.

Firstfruits
Oct 4th 2008, 12:53 PM
depends on the heart condition and motivation.

How would you apply what you have said with regards to the following?

Phil 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phil 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phil 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 04:50 PM
Righteousness comes from God through Yeshua, not ourselves. All you have to do is allow the inner righteousness God gave you to have control over your corrupt, visible flesh. This is how we conform to His image and renew (reprogram if you like) our minds.

Firstfruits
Oct 6th 2008, 06:46 PM
Righteousness comes from God through Yeshua, not ourselves. All you have to do is allow the inner righteousness God gave you to have control over your corrupt, visible flesh. This is how we conform to His image and renew (reprogram if you like) our minds.

If according to the following doing the things contained in the law are no longer valid for righteousness which as you say can only be attained by faith in Christ, then what are the works of righteousness we should follow after?

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Oct 6th 2008, 06:57 PM
Righteousness comes from God through Yeshua, not ourselves. All you have to do is allow the inner righteousness God gave you to have control over your corrupt, visible flesh. This is how we conform to His image and renew (reprogram if you like) our minds.

If you could - please show how we have any righteousness of our own now. I've never seen that in scripture.

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 07:10 PM
If you could - please show how we have any righteousness of our own now. I've never seen that in scripture.

Please show me where I said we have any righteousness by our own effort. I certainly never had any intent to say so.

Dani H
Oct 6th 2008, 07:15 PM
Righteousness comes from God through Yeshua, not ourselves. All you have to do is allow the inner righteousness God gave you to have control over your corrupt, visible flesh. This is how we conform to His image and renew (reprogram if you like) our minds.

Brother, we are not to control our flesh (this is what the Law was given for), our flesh is to die (this is what Yeshua's death and resurrection made provision for).

threebigrocks
Oct 6th 2008, 07:23 PM
Please show me where I said we have any righteousness by our own effort. I certainly never had any intent to say so.

You stated our "inner righteousness". From that statement of yours it seems like we already have it - it's just woke up when we choose Christ. Not so. We have everything by faith only and nothing by or of ourselves now. Later, yes. Now, no.

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 07:29 PM
Brother, we are not to control our flesh (this is what the Law was given for), our flesh is to die (this is what Yeshua's death and resurrection made provision for).

Let's bring this out with Scripture. I have a feeling we both are on the same page but separated by words and mis-interpretations.

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 07:31 PM
You stated our "inner righteousness". From that statement of yours it seems like we already have it - it's just woke up when we choose Christ. Not so. We have everything by faith only and nothing by or of ourselves now. Later, yes. Now, no.

You're quoting me out of context. What did I say in the rest of that sentence?

Emanate
Oct 7th 2008, 03:37 AM
Brother, we are not to control our flesh (this is what the Law was given for), our flesh is to die (this is what Yeshua's death and resurrection made provision for).


Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

It appears we do indeed have a work to do in submission.

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 07:52 AM
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

It appears we do indeed have a work to do in submission.


So what then are the works we need to do to maintain our salvation with regards to the following?

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Oct 7th 2008, 04:11 PM
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

It appears we do indeed have a work to do in submission.


Hum. We are to die daily, keeping the flesh dead in order to live in the Spirit. That takes self control, to deny oneself the desires of the flesh which lead to sin.

I would have to agree with Emanate. Our flesh must submit to the Spirit, and it doesn't want to be "left for dead". It's gonna fight you.

Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2008, 12:51 PM
Hum. We are to die daily, keeping the flesh dead in order to live in the Spirit. That takes self control, to deny oneself the desires of the flesh which lead to sin.

I would have to agree with Emanate. Our flesh must submit to the Spirit, and it doesn't want to be "left for dead". It's gonna fight you.

I agree, but what then are the works we need to do to maintain our salvation with regards to the following?

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


Thanks


Firstfruits

Dani H
Oct 9th 2008, 05:37 PM
Romans 13:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Step out of bed, step into Jesus, consider the flesh as dead, and abide in Him. When the flesh squawks its woeful tune, ignore it because dead things have nothing to say. :)

Rinse, repeat the next day ... and the day after ... and after that ... etc.

Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2008, 07:29 PM
Romans 13:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Step out of bed, step into Jesus, consider the flesh as dead, and abide in Him. When the flesh squawks its woeful tune, ignore it because dead things have nothing to say. :)

Rinse, repeat the next day ... and the day after ... and after that ... etc.

Thank you,

So the opposite of making provision for the flesh is to follow the Spirit.

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

God bless you

Firstfruits