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markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:11 AM
First things first: what led me to start this thread.

Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.


Rev 4:1...The Rapture of the Church (Phase I of CHRIST’S 2nd Coming)I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of


After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."


depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

(Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

Christ's chronology
Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

Matthew 10
In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

Matthew 13
In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

So...

Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
Enemy = the devil (Satan)

Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

"Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:


False christs, wars and rumors of wars
Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
Then persecution of the followers of Christ
Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
The gospel preached to all
Then the end will come
Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

Paul's chronology
Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

John's chronology
John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

Summary
So let's take all of the above together:

According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".

dworthington
Oct 2nd 2008, 12:31 PM
Today is another day closer, whatever we believe about the rapture.

markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 12:51 PM
Today is another day closer, whatever we believe about the rapture.This doesn't exactly help a person come to a better understanding of the rapture, though. Personally, I don't find this very contributable to a discussion.

Many Christians believe they'll be whisked away to safety before the hard stuff hits. What will they do if they believe that and when stuff actually happens, "Uh-oh, we're still here... But God promised we'd be taken out of the world before this stuff was going on!" Would it shake their faith? Would some feel like they were abandoned? Hence why I believe Christians should recognize that the Bible teaches a "post-tribulation" rapture and not a "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.

TexasBeliever
Oct 2nd 2008, 12:59 PM
Markedward:

I agree with you. I also was pretrib. I started my own indepth study for the same reasons you did, in that the pretrib view requires one to "read in" things that are not directly stated in the scriptures.

I also believe that it IS vitally important to not have the attitude, " it dosen't matter what you believe about rapture timing." Why? Because Jesus gave us all of these details of the last days for the protection of our faith and our souls, so that we would be mentally, emotionally and spiritually prepared to endure the most terrible times His followers will ever face.

scourge39
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:49 PM
What will they do if they believe that and when stuff actually happens, "Uh-oh, we're still here... But God promised we'd be taken out of the world before this stuff was going on!" Would it shake their faith? Would some feel like they were abandoned? Hence why I believe Christians should recognize that the Bible teaches a "post-tribulation" rapture and not a "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.

Those familiar with the post-trib view will adjust their position accordingly. I'm more concerned about those who only know the pre-trib view. Let's be honest, a certain amount of apostasy is bound to occur.

P. S. I'm going to edit the private message that I sent you earlier and post it here later. You're right, it is worth others reading.

mfowler12
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:00 PM
My only question with your research, did you pray to God for the answer? Our knowledge and wisdom is only given by Him and that includes our understanding of the bible and its words.

People post about how they have researched it themselves. I only care about the person who has prayed and prayed for understanding from God.

My humble opinion.

longtooth
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:25 PM
I still believe the Word teaches a Pre-trib rapture of church. The biggest reason I believe many do not is they really do not realize how much persecution the Christians will have to endure before the Rapture. I believe we will see persecution to equal or exceed that of the apostles, early church persecution, & present day persecution in the God hating countries of world right now.
The Tribulation then will be the wrath of God that has never been seen in the history of the world & cannot be imagined by the mind of men.
Flood, Babel, Sodom & G, Babalonian Captivity, all a walk in the park compared to Trib wrath.

Pre-Trib belief does not preclude or even minimize Christian persecution prior to the Rapture.

My .02cents & some think it worth half that.
LT

IPet2_9
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:29 PM
Pre-Trib belief does not preclude or even minimize Christian persecution prior to the Rapture.

That's true. When I leaned toward pre-trib, I felt that the Rapture CAUSED the Tribulation. The complete absence of anyone saved on the planet left Man to their own ways, causing all manner of suffering.

While that all made perfect sense, in my mind, I just never found any Scriptural basis for it.

DeafPosttrib
Oct 2nd 2008, 03:52 PM
There is no promise find anywhere in Bible saying that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. In John 16:33 tells us that we must suffer tribulation, but we should be cheer because Christ overcame them at calvary. Also, Paul said that we must go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

These tribulations will not be finish till immediately after the days of tribulation - Matt. 24:29. Christ shall come right after tribulation.

You have to find prove clear verse anywhere in Bible that, it saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation. If you know the clear verse, then please prove it to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

divaD
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:30 PM
The Tribulation then will be the wrath of God that has never been seen in the history of the world & cannot be imagined by
the mind of men.



I agree with you. The wrath of God will be like that. But what does the trib and the wrath of God have to do with one another? The trib is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan. Keep in mind, during the trib many believers are going to be persecuted and killed. Does this sound like the wrath of God? No it doesn't. But it sure sounds like the wrath of satan, wouldn't you agree?

jen74
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:31 PM
What year do you believe that Paul wrote his writings? What year do you believe that John wrote revelations?
If my understanding is correct Paul wrote his writings sometime in the 60 AD
Where John was given his revelation in 90AD. So how would Paul know about the last trumpet?
Just trying to figure this all out. Thanks for your response in advance.

jen74
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:42 PM
I guess I am confused...
It seems to say in Rev 11:18 that the time has come to judge the dead and reward the prophets and saints before the Ark of the Covenant. We are Christ believers and we would stand before Christ so he can intercede. The Ark would be important to the OT believers and non believers(This was Gods presence)
Does any one else understand this verse the way I see it. It doesn't seem that it is time for the NT believers to be judged and rewarded. Otherwise why is it not mentioned?

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:44 PM
This doesn't exactly help a person come to a better understanding of the rapture, though. Personally, I don't find this very contributable to a discussion...Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.

Maybe what dworthington saw is the same thing I saw when reading your OP. Arguments against another position are not the same as arguments for yours. If I believe something, I must continually justify that belief if I still don't have a peace about it. If I am at peace about it, I don't have the need to convert others to that position or to keep justifying it to myself.

You said you are an "ex-pre-tribber". If you find it wrong, then why are you still even talking about it? If it's wrong, it's wrong, and leave it at that. Otherwise the OP appears to be baiting pre-tribbers into the thread. And that wouldn't be discussing, it would be debating.

Start a thread on why you believe post-trib is right. :)

AliveinChristDave
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:55 PM
First things first: what led me to start this thread.

Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of


After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."


depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

(Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

Christ's chronology
Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

Matthew 10
In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

Matthew 13
In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

So...

Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
Enemy = the devil (Satan)

Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

"Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:


False christs, wars and rumors of wars
Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
Then persecution of the followers of Christ
Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
The gospel preached to all
Then the end will come
Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels
First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

Paul's chronology
Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

John's chronology
John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

Summary
So let's take all of the above together:

According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".

Matt. 24:40 goes along with the wheat and tares parable.
Those taken are taken into Judgement just as those taken in the flood perished in judgement.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Judgement always comes before peace.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:38 PM
I'm post trib. and trying/wanting to be converted to "pre" because of all the trouble it causes me among my Baptist friends. I have begged to be converted but they never seem to be able to sit down and ACTUALLY explain how they come up with it. If you challenge anything they say (in my experience anyway) they get defensive and we end up running all over the place with pointless philosophical arguements).

My biggest issue is this: If the dead in Christ are raised first.(Please challenge that if I am wrong), then how do you get around Rev 20:5. There the scripture says that the Devil starts his 1000 yr imprisonment and the saint are resurected in the FIRST resurrection. (presumable immediately after that we who are live are raptured too-since we cant go before them). There cant have been a rapture before then or there would have been a resurrection before then too! and if that was the case then this Rev 20:5 shouldnt be calling it the FIRST resurrection.

I did have one witty man say that it wasnt the first resurrection because Christs was the first and several prophets were resurrected with him on that special easter day! But I pointed out that a small local resurrection and a global "all saints included" resurrection surely shouldnt be referred to as the first or the "pre-first" resurrection LOL!:rofl:

Please if you are pre trib (and I am not trying to start a fight at all, please show me how to believe as you do.
I am serious. But...Scripture required.:confused

jen74
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:43 PM
The rest of the dead could be the OT saints and followers of God

markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:52 PM
Arguments against another position are not the same as arguments for yours.Not always, but in this case they are. I used arguments for a post-trib as the arguments against the pre-trib.


If I believe something, I must continually justify that belief if I still don't have a peace about it.This is your own experience, not mine. If I believe something, I tell others about it - not to "justify" my belief, but to get them thinking about their own.


You said you are an "ex-pre-tribber". If you find it wrong, then why are you still even talking about it? If it's wrong, it's wrong, and leave it at that.As I said before, I'm interested in the pursuit for truth. Are you telling me to, in summary, be quiet about what I believe to be the truth? In that case, why is anyone even here in the Bible Chat or End-Times Chat? No point in discussing NOSAS/OSAS, no point in discussing "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit," no point in discussing the identity of the beast or 666, no point in discussing anything related to the Bible.


Start a thread on why you believe post-trib is right.This is that thread. Perhaps the title should have been more balanced, but my OP was a statement for both why I believe in the post-trib and not the pre-trib. As I said in the opening, "I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture." And I did just that: every verse I presented I believe gives evidence for a post-tribulation rapture, and by definition that means it gives evidence against a pre-tribulation rapture.

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:02 PM
I'm post trib. and trying/wanting to be converted to "pre" because of all the trouble it causes me among my Baptist friends. I have begged to be converted but they never seem to be able to sit down and ACTUALLY explain how they come up with it. If you challenge anything they say (in my experience anyway) they get defensive and we end up running all over the place with pointless philosophical arguements).

My biggest issue is this: If the dead in Christ are raised first.(Please challenge that if I am wrong), then how do you get around Rev 20:5. There the scripture says that the Devil starts his 1000 yr imprisonment and the saint are resurected in the FIRST resurrection. (presumable immediately after that we who are live are raptured too-since we cant go before them). There cant have been a rapture before then or there would have been a resurrection before then too! and if that was the case then this Rev 20:5 shouldnt be calling it the FIRST resurrection.

I did have one witty man say that it wasnt the first resurrection because Christs was the first and several prophets were resurrected with him on that special easter day! But I pointed out that a small local resurrection and a global "all saints included" resurrection surely shouldnt be referred to as the first or the "pre-first" resurrection LOL!:rofl:

Please if you are pre trib (and I am not trying to start a fight at all, please show me how to believe as you do.
I am serious. But...Scripture required.:confused

The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel. They pertained only to Israel and the gentile nations. They are in the same order as Jesus taught them. First the resurrection of the Righteous, followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous (rest of the dead). The "order" of resurrections by Paul only mentions one that had already taken place (Jesus) and the next one in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints. While Paul didn't specifically mention the other two that Jesus taught to Israel, he certainly alluded to them when saying that eventually all will be made alive in Christ. Paul did exactly what Jesus did, he only taught the resurrections which pertained to his audience.

In Revelation 1:6, John identifies live Church saints (who are now dead):


Revelation 1:6 and He has made us {to be} a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him {be} the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Peter also confirmed that Church saints are already priests:


1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Now, look at Revelation 20:


Revelation 20:6. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

These saints who died in the tribulation had not yet been priests, so they can't be Church saints. Since this resurrection is the last of the Righteous, the resurrection of dead Church saints must have occurred before this one.

Hope it helps. :)

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:45 PM
The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel. They pertained only to Israel and the gentile nations. They are in the same order as Jesus taught them. First the resurrection of the Righteous, followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous (rest of the dead). The "order" of resurrections by Paul only mentions one that had already taken place (Jesus) and the next one in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints. While Paul didn't specifically mention the other two that Jesus taught to Israel, he certainly alluded to them when saying that eventually all will be made alive in Christ. Paul did exactly what Jesus did, he only taught the resurrections which pertained to his audience.

In Revelation 1:6, John identifies live Church saints (who are now dead):



Peter also confirmed that Church saints are already priests:



Now, look at Revelation 20:



These saints who died in the tribulation had not yet been priests, so they can't be Church saints. Since this resurrection is the last of the Righteous, the resurrection of dead Church saints must have occurred before this one.

Hope it helps. :)

Rev 20:4-6 is the simplest, most straightforward passage in the bible IMO.

2 groups of dead are identified. The tribulation martyrs and "the rest of the dead".

tribulation martyrs - first resurrection

rest of the dead (believers and unbelievers) - resurrection after the 1000 years.

Hope that helps. :)

markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:47 PM
The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel. They pertained only to Israel and the gentile nations. They are in the same order as Jesus taught them. First the resurrection of the Righteous, followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous (rest of the dead).

Daniel 12:2 The multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Judgment of the wicked and righteous is seen as taking place at the same time; they awake at the same time are divided at the same time. Daniel 12:2 depicts the awakening of both righteous and wicked - there is no implication of a difference between the two.

Matthew 25:31-33,46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. ... Then they [on the left] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [on the right] to eternal life.

This is the same thing we see happening in Daniel 12:2. Christ says that the wicked and righteous will be gathered at the same time and divided at the same time. This is the throne judgment.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 11:18 and 20:11-15 speak of the same event: the judgment of the dead, at the throne of God. Revelation 11 directly says that at this judgment of the dead, the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. Revelation 20 says if a person's name is not found in the book of life, then they are thrown into the lake of fire. The if means that some people will be found in it and some people won't be found in it. Meaning, Revelation 20:11-15 is not just the judgment of the wicked, but of the righteous and the wicked.


These saints who died in the tribulation had not yet been priests, so they can't be Church saints. Since this resurrection is the last of the Righteous, the resurrection of dead Church saints must have occurred before this one.Revelation 20:4 directly states that these martyrs are people who died for the "testimony for Jesus" and "had not worshiped the beast". They were Christians (i.e., "Church saints").

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:53 PM
amen markedward -

also
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

this clearly states that "in the same "hour" the righteous and unrighteous will be raised to judgement at the same time and is in agreement with Dan 12:2.

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:09 PM
...This is your own experience, not mine. If I believe something, I tell others about it - not to "justify" my belief, but to get them thinking about their own...

As long as you are not trying to make it their conviction, that's fine, because:


Romans 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

If you truly have a peace about your doctrine, it has to come from the Holy Spirit and God's Word. And if it does, what position another Believer holds about that end times issue shouldn't bother you. That's what peace is.

End times positions aren't related to one's Salvation. None of the issues talked or posted about in this forum are worth upsetting anyone over. In the end, we can all be sure God's Truth will win out. :)

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:15 PM
...Hope that helps. :)

(sigh) Illustrates the point in my previous point...exactly.

John146
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:17 PM
What year do you believe that Paul wrote his writings? What year do you believe that John wrote revelations?
If my understanding is correct Paul wrote his writings sometime in the 60 AD
Where John was given his revelation in 90AD. So how would Paul know about the last trumpet?
Just trying to figure this all out. Thanks for your response in advance.Who inspired both Paul and John to write the things that they wrote? The Spirit of God, right? It isn't about what Paul knew. It's about what the Spirit of God knew.

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:21 PM
The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel. They pertained only to Israel and the gentile nations. They are in the same order as Jesus taught them. First the resurrection of the Righteous, followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous (rest of the dead). The "order" of resurrections by Paul only mentions one that had already taken place (Jesus) and the next one in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints. While Paul didn't specifically mention the other two that Jesus taught to Israel, he certainly alluded to them when saying that eventually all will be made alive in Christ. Paul did exactly what Jesus did, he only taught the resurrections which pertained to his audience.

In Revelation 1:6, John identifies live Church saints (who are now dead):



Peter also confirmed that Church saints are already priests:



Now, look at Revelation 20:



These saints who died in the tribulation had not yet been priests, so they can't be Church saints. Since this resurrection is the last of the Righteous, the resurrection of dead Church saints must have occurred before this one.

Hope it helps. :)

Certainly Jesus rose from the dead. That is a given.
There are two resurrections remaining. Not three or four or even six.

Count ‘em. Rev 20:5

John just got finished writing about the first resurrection - then he mentioned the other resurrection after the millennium.
Then he concluded the whole topic by saying he had – with everything previous – been talking about the first resurrection.
It would have been easier for us - had John switched these two sentences.
Lets try that:
This is the first resurrection…. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
One……………………………………………………………………………………………Two

First resurrection:
When?
At the last trump.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:52

The seventh trumpet in Revelation – right before the bowels of God’s wrath.
Who?

The dead in Christ. Note: The resurrection of the dead in Christ is not referring to Jesus. How can Jesus be “in Christ”?
Then who?
Then we who are alive and remain… Opps The rapture!

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:16,17

Second resurrection:
When?
until the thousand years were finished.
Who?
the rest of the dead

The “priests not priests” argument ignores the fact that this is the first resurrection.
There is no “secret” pre-first resurrection.
There is no secret pre-resurrection rapture.
The dead in Christ rise first at the last trump. Then the rapture.

markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:25 PM
End times positions aren't related to one's Salvation. None of the issues talked or posted about in this forum are worth upsetting anyone over. In the end, we can all be sure God's Truth will win out.So... what's the harm in discussing it, or even "debating" it? As I said before, I'm not trying to "upset" anyone. It's just a thread to get people to think over what they believe - non-essential beliefs, if that satisfies you.

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:38 PM
Who?

The dead in Christ. Note: The resurrection of the dead in Christ is not referring to Jesus. How can Jesus be “in Christ”?
Then who?

the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

If you are dead "in Christ" and meet the above qualifications, you can expect to be raised at the first resurrection :2cents:

John146
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:39 PM
There is no promise find anywhere in Bible saying that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. In John 16:33 tells us that we must suffer tribulation, but we should be cheer because Christ overcame them at calvary. Also, Paul said that we must go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

These tribulations will not be finish till immediately after the days of tribulation - Matt. 24:29. Christ shall come right after tribulation.

You have to find prove clear verse anywhere in Bible that, it saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation. If you know the clear verse, then please prove it to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!Agree. This is what Jesus prayed:

John 17
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You and I believe in Christ through the recorded words of the apostles, right? So, Jesus was actually praying that the Father not take any believers out of the world, but to protect us from evil.

Also, it says in 2 Timothy 3:12 that "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.". Persecution and tribulation has always been a part of the Christian life so why would God feel the need to take anyone out of the world in order to avoid what millions of believers have had to go through before? And why should the person be "raptured" who gave his/her life to Christ shortly before the Rapture while the person who gives his/her life to Christ shortly afterwards has to stay around and suffer tribulation?

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:50 PM
[/font]
[/list]the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

If you are dead "in Christ" and meet the above qualifications, you can expect to be raised at the first resurrection :2cents:


Thank you Crush. I had noticed that. :rolleyes:

:crazy: My wacky theory about non-tribulation saints being resurrected after the 1000 years - because they were not specified in the first and the Book of Life being opened at the Judgment - would have only added to the confusion. :)

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:59 PM
So... what's the harm in discussing it, or even "debating" it? As I said before, I'm not trying to "upset" anyone. It's just a thread to get people to think over what they believe - non-essential beliefs, if that satisfies you.

Well, that's certainly a step in the right direction. As you can see above, even though I directed an answer to Dragonfighter1, I now have been rebutted by two other posters, neither of which are Dragonfighter1. :lol:

I think discussions are OK, even on end times issues. What we have to be careful of is not to let them evolve into harsh debates, which is what I would be doing if I bothered responding to those two rebuttals. I am not interested.

Another thing that distinguishes discussion from debate besides civility is the use of questions when responding to each other. Dragonfighter1 asked specifically for a pre-tribber to respond and asked a specific question. I answered, sticking solely to that specific topic. Posing questions rather than making assertions is the difference between using honey rather than vinegar and goes a long way in preventing discussions from descending into harsh debates.

In your OP, you started with a point about Revelation 4:1. Your statements made it clear that you feel most or all pre-tribbers view that as a rapture. I am one pre-tribber who doesn't. That's another thing we have to be careful of...foisting our overall perceptions of those "talking points" on everyone in that other camp. It doesn't always work.

Just some things to think about. :)

Richard H
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:07 PM
Sorry. I thought it was a group discussion.

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:08 PM
Thank you Crush. I had noticed that. :rolleyes:

:crazy: My wacky theory about non-tribulation saints being resurrected after the 1000 years - because they were not specified in the first and the Book of Life being opened at the Judgment - would have only added to the confusion. :)

YW Richard. IMO this "wacky" theory (that I also share) doesn't add any confusion, it subtracts from the confusion greatly :lol:

and their are many reasons why the tribulation martyrs don't have to stand in judgement at the GWT judgment day...here's one LOL

Every one who's name isn't in the book of life worships the Beast when he appears - those who's names ARE written in the book of Life do not worship the beast, and are killed (or remain alive 'til the end of the trib)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

it is a foregone conclusion that all who don't worship the Beast are written in the book of life - so opening the book to determine if the martyrs names are in the book isn't necessary

IOW worshiping/not-worshiping the beast is the same as opening the book of life, the same information is gained

markedward
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:20 PM
In your OP, you started with a point about Revelation 4:1. Your statements made it clear that you feel most or all pre-tribbers view that as a rapture.It was actually a specific statement made by a specific person in another thread. I read it in that thread and thought to myself "Even when I did believe in the pre-trib, I never read 4:1 as inferring or implying a rapture was taking place." This in turn made me decide, "Well, I think I would like to start a thread about why I don't believe in the pre-trib view anymore, and why I do believe in the post-trib view." So I created this thread to do just that, but I also still felt that I wanted to respond to that the original statement that had sparked my idea without derailing the thread I found it in. I was addressing a very specific idea to begin with (Revelation 4:1 is the rapture of the church ) and why I, regardless of being pre- or post-trib, think it's an example of bad hermeneutics. Then I shifted into my generic presentation of why I believe the post-trib and not the pre-trib.


I am one pre-tribber who doesn't.Okay. But I don't think I was "making it clear" that I felt "most or all" people interpreted the verse that way. But, considering I've read numerous posts in the past few years on the forum and multiple books and online articles and such that make the same claim as that original quote from my OP, it is something that many people believe. It may not be "most" or "all," but it's still a large group. (As I previously stated, this was a specific user who stated this, not me attributing a statement to the pre-trib crowd as a whole. When I copied the statement into my OP, I removed the user's name so that it would not appear as if I was picking on them.)


That's another thing we have to be careful of...foisting our overall perceptions of those "talking points" on everyone in that other camp. It doesn't always work.I don't think I did. I apologize if that's how it came out, but it certainly was not my intent.

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:22 PM
Sorry. I thought it was a group discussion.

I am not offended. No apology necessary. :)

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:27 PM
...I don't think I did. I apologize if that's how it came out, but it certainly was not my intent.

I realize it wasn't intentional and I wasn't offended. I need to tell everyone that one of my best friends on the entire internet is a post-tribber. We get along fine because of some of what I mentioned in my earlier post. We seem to be able to talk to each other better via questions. He is also a member of this board, although he hasn't posted here much.

If we (notice I included myself) can learn through asking questions, the threads will last longer, we'll learn to get along and our Witness as brothers and sisters will be what it should be. :)

Carry on.

IBWatching
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:41 PM
...But, considering I've read numerous posts in the past few years on the forum and multiple books and online articles and such that make the same claim as that original quote from my OP, it is something that many people believe...

Now this part is my fault. I am by no means a "mainstream" pre-tribber. And I agree, there are many people from "my" camp who believe this. Here are some other "pre-trib" things I don't go along with:

Matthew 24 is not in chronological order
Luke 21:28 is the rapture (it's one of John Hagee's favorites)
Rev 4:1 is the rapture
Rev 3:10 conclusively proves pre-trib (it confirms Luke 21:35)
The Church is a dispensation
The 10 Virgins (Matthew 25) are the Church

There are many other points I have not listed here. All were discarded from my position when I did a "testing" of it some years back.

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:58 PM
Rev 3:10 conclusively proves pre-trib (it confirms Luke 21:35)


I apologize in advance, seeing as how you don't like being spoken to by people you haven't addressed, but you have made a very bold statement here to whomever may be reading this board, and I'd like to have an opinion on this statement.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I admit that I don't fully understand the mystery of the 7 churches in Rev, but the only "conclusive" proof I can see in 3:10 is that the church of Philadelphia won't be tempted during the Great Trib. I would assume this would mean that they aren't tempted to worship the beast, or receive the "mark of the beast"



I believe the scripture that I just posted is relevant. Everyone that's not written in the book of life will worship the Beast - the "chuch of Philadelphia" won't be tempted to worship the beast....so they'll prolly be killed :hmm:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

during the "Lord's prayer" when we say "lead us not into temptation" does that automatically mean "take us to heaven so we won't be tempted"? LOL

Also, if there are 7 churches, and only the Philadelphia church gets "raptured" - that would still leave six churches :o

[edit]NM, sorry again, LOL, I see now that you are listing things that you DON'T agree with :blush:

TexasBeliever
Oct 2nd 2008, 10:54 PM
I'm post trib. and trying/wanting to be converted to "pre" because of all the trouble it causes me among my Baptist friends. I have begged to be converted but they never seem to be able to sit down and ACTUALLY explain how they come up with it. If you challenge anything they say (in my experience anyway) they get defensive and we end up running all over the place with pointless philosophical arguements).

My biggest issue is this: If the dead in Christ are raised first.(Please challenge that if I am wrong), then how do you get around Rev 20:5. There the scripture says that the Devil starts his 1000 yr imprisonment and the saint are resurected in the FIRST resurrection. (presumable immediately after that we who are live are raptured too-since we cant go before them). There cant have been a rapture before then or there would have been a resurrection before then too! and if that was the case then this Rev 20:5 shouldnt be calling it the FIRST resurrection.

I did have one witty man say that it wasnt the first resurrection because Christs was the first and several prophets were resurrected with him on that special easter day! But I pointed out that a small local resurrection and a global "all saints included" resurrection surely shouldnt be referred to as the first or the "pre-first" resurrection LOL!:rofl:

Please if you are pre trib (and I am not trying to start a fight at all, please show me how to believe as you do.
I am serious. But...Scripture required.:confused

Hey there: another thing you might point out to your witty friend is that the First Resurrection is described as the "resurrection unto LIFE", meaning eternal life.
Only Jesus was raised to eternal life. Everyone else who was raised from the dead was NOT raised to eternal life. They simply came back to life and then died a natural death and are currently waiting for the resurrection unto life like all believers.

DigReal
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:17 PM
Folks, I think there is one thing we should always keep in mind: the pre, mid, post discussion has been going on a long time, and may continue until we've all been brought up to our Lord. All that this discussion can prove is that the answer isn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't keep having this discussion. Right? But I'm not saying we shouldn't keep having this discussion, quite the contrary.

I currently call myself pre-trib, but I'm not about to try and convince anyone that that's the view to believe. I'll always openly state my view, and may even state why. But to try and convince someone?, I pray I don't. For one thing, as I continue to study, I discover new reasons to change my view. First I was post, then mid, now pre. Next week I may be post-trib again. What this has taught me is that I must continue to study, continue to be watchful, continue to pray, and continue to (as the scouts always say) be prepared!

So, even though currently pre-trib, if I'm awakened one night by a terrible quake here in SoCal, and then hear of nuclear bombs going off in the middle east, I'm not going to ask "what happened to my rapture?". I'll know in an instant! Instead, I expect to shout "Lord, what is my role? What is your Will for me?" Granted, it's obvious most won't like living in that hour, myself included, but we should know by now to understand those times, so we're prepared not to be deceived. :pray:

The point is, regardless of a pre, mid, or post view, we should all be prepared for any of those. Post-tribbers need to think of rapture as imminent, and not allow themselves to be part of this world, thinking they have lots of time to get their act together (not that I think anyone on this forum would think that way). Likewise, pre-tribbers shouldn't tell themselves they don't need to study the prophecy of tribulation, thinking it won't matter to them since they won't be here (after all, John did say in RE1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.."

Perhaps the mystery of the rapture shouldn't be so mysterious, after all? :hmm:

jen74
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
Folks, I think there is one thing we should always keep in mind: the pre, mid, post discussion has been going on a long time, and may continue until we've all been brought up to our Lord. All that this discussion can prove is that the answer isn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't keep having this discussion. Right? But I'm not saying we shouldn't keep having this discussion, quite the contrary.

I currently call myself pre-trib, but I'm not about to try and convince anyone that that's the view to believe. I'll always openly state my view, and may even state why. But to try and convince someone?, I pray I don't. For one thing, as I continue to study, I discover new reasons to change my view. First I was post, then mid, now pre. Next week I may be post-trib again. What this has taught me is that I must continue to study, continue to be watchful, continue to pray, and continue to (as the scouts always say) be prepared!

So, even though currently pre-trib, if I'm awakened one night by a terrible quake here in SoCal, and then hear of nuclear bombs going off in the middle east, I'm not going to ask "what happened to my rapture?". I'll know in an instant! Instead, I expect to shout "Lord, what is my role? What is your Will for me?" Granted, it's obvious most won't like living in that hour, myself included, but we should know by now to understand those times, so we're prepared not to be deceived. :pray:

The point is, regardless of a pre, mid, or post view, we should all be prepared for any of those. Post-tribbers need to think of rapture as imminent, and not allow themselves to be part of this world, thinking they have lots of time to get their act together (not that I think anyone on this forum would think that way). Likewise, pre-tribbers shouldn't tell themselves they don't need to study the prophecy of tribulation, thinking it won't matter to them since they won't be here (after all, John did say in RE1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.."

Perhaps the mystery of the rapture shouldn't be so mysterious, after all? :hmm:
Very nicely put! I like the way you think. :)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:47 PM
IBW Regarding your post abbreviated below...

The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel....Hope it helps. :)

Thank you for your response. I read it 3 times. I am still not getting where my mental block is. This is very frustrating as I am sincere in getting a handle on where the differences between the two camps lie. Once I understand the key point of confusion then I can decide. As it is I find my search must continue. I will be watching this board a lot for comments and explanations and will try to post serious cogent and specific questions... But I won't respond just for the sake of acknowledging unless I can add something useful or ask an even more narrowing question. I noticed while watching this bit of thread that other brothers(sisters) do a fine job or making points or countering..

Thanks:hmm:

IBWatching
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:49 PM
I apologize in advance, seeing as how you don't like being spoken to by people you haven't addressed,...

There was a laughing smilie by my statement in that post. I wasn't offended. No apology necessary.


...I admit that I don't fully understand the mystery of the 7 churches in Rev, but the only "conclusive" proof I can see in 3:10 is that the church of Philadelphia won't be tempted during the Great Trib. I would assume this would mean that they aren't tempted to worship the beast, or receive the "mark of the beast"...

I see the word "testing" in that verse as a bit mild when compared to talking about judgment. That's why I can't join many of my fellow pre-tribbers as seeing it as "conclusive" proof of a pre-trib rapture. But the verse does seem to scare the "ek" out of some people. :lol:



...NM, sorry again, LOL, I see now that you are listing things that you DON'T agree with :blush:

No problem. But I might point out that your quick reaction should tell you that you need to adjust your "reaction time" to what some pre-tribbers say. We don't all agree on all points...just like post-tribbers. ;)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:54 PM
It was either Keith Green or Steve Green that said...
"Pray for 'Pre', prepare for 'post' ".

I like the sentiment. If Post turns out to be correct I need to be prepared. How do I do that? what will it entail?

I think it was Keith Green. Wasnt he the one that died in 1982 in a plane crash.. The plane crash dude is the one I mean.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:00 PM
Umm. Not sure about this question...


You know, if it is a post trib situation what on earth (pun WAS intended:lol:) are we going to do to survive?

Would it be possible to have a chat thread about how to prepare??

IPet2_9
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:02 PM
It's Keith Green. Steve Green is still alive.

IBWatching
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:43 PM
IBW Regarding your post abbreviated below...


Thank you for your response. I read it 3 times. I am still not getting where my mental block is. This is very frustrating as I am sincere in getting a handle on where the differences between the two camps lie. Once I understand the key point of confusion then I can decide. As it is I find my search must continue. I will be watching this board a lot for comments and explanations and will try to post serious cogent and specific questions... But I won't respond just for the sake of acknowledging unless I can add something useful or ask an even more narrowing question. I noticed while watching this bit of thread that other brothers(sisters) do a fine job or making points or countering..

Thanks:hmm:

You are welcome. :)

Don't be pre-trib just for the sake of getting along with those around you. I appreciate the fact that you are challenging them. If they can't give you sufficient reason to believe their position from the Scriptures, then IMO you are under no obligation to accept what they say just on the basis of them saying it. Examine it for yourself.

Here's a couple of passages that are foundational to the pre-trib position as I hold it:


Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in {the} way of {the} Gentiles, and do not enter {any} city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.In these verses you have Jesus clearly stating that His Ministry while on this earth, as well as that of His disciples, was focused on Israel. Yet how many times have I seen people from various end times' camps take statements that Jesus made to Israel and apply them to the Church! Most often when I have challenged this, the answer I get is that they also apply to the Church. But the Church didn't exist when Jesus made these statements. And again, Jesus was talking first to Israel.

My point in all this is that if you seriously desire to know the Truth about the end times, you have to apply things in the Gospels properly. And according to Jesus, that means His statements were directed to Israel. Getting back to what I told you about the resurrections, Jesus was teaching two separate resurrections to Israel here:


John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good {deeds} to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil {deeds} to a resurrection of judgment.One of life, one of judgment. When Paul mentioned the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15, he only taught one to the Church, and said it was the next in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints when the one time gathering/changing of the Church takes place...in the air. Neither of the resurrections in Revelation 20 or any other one in that book mentions a changing of live saints which occurs with it (them).

I already gave you residual proof that the saints in Rev 20:6 can't be Church saints. But now you know the foundation I laid that proof on. :)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:00 PM
IBW... thanks, Helps me to grasp better. Time to run around my Bible a bit. (What does IMO mean?):o

IBWatching
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:25 PM
IBW... thanks, Helps me to grasp better. Time to run around my Bible a bit. (What does IMO mean?):o

In My Opinion. :)

quiet dove
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:34 PM
Umm. Not sure about this question...


You know, if it is a post trib situation what on earth (pun WAS intended:lol:) are we going to do to survive?

Would it be possible to have a chat thread about how to prepare??

There are a couple of those around, you can search, or maybe someone can link them for you if they know where they are.

But in a nut shell, there aint but one way to survive what will be going on then, pray! The same way we survive our fragile exsistance each day in this place, by the mercy and grace of God.

WritingRose
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:42 PM
First things first: what led me to start this thread.

Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of


After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."


depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.



OK, I have to respond to the rest later, but right now, I'm dealing with this one. I agree. I've heard many preachers site this verse to mean pre-trib rapture, and it never quite sat well with me.

This doesn't mean I abosolutely do NOT believe in pre-trib rapture. It just means I agree there is reason to doubt it. Ok, I'll say more later. Thanks!

Jen

divaD
Oct 3rd 2008, 09:25 PM
OK, I have to respond to the rest later, but right now, I'm dealing with this one. I agree. I've heard many preachers site this verse to mean pre-trib rapture, and it never quite sat well with me.

This doesn't mean I abosolutely do NOT believe in pre-trib rapture. It just means I agree there is reason to doubt it. Ok, I'll say more later. Thanks!

Jen



I for one do not agree that this is talking about a pre-trib rapture, yet I can see why they might pick this particular verse to do so. Up unto this point, the 7 churches are mentioned. After this point, the churches are no longer mentioned. What's the next thing to take place. Christ receives the sealed book and begins to unloose the seals one at a time. What might that mean to a pre-tribber? The beginning of the trib. It isn't hard to determine how they come to these conclusions. The only problem, since they're now supposed to be in heaven before Christ removes the seals, John doesn't see them in heaven, because it is nowhere recorded that he sees a multitude of people before Christ opens the first seal.

But there are records of John seeing multiltudes of people. Where did they come from? Out of great trib. Now why would these multitudes be recorded, but not the supposed millions that are raptured in Rev 4? I wonder why John wasn't curious as to who these were? Simple. There wasn't anyone else to be curious about. No way could Rev 4 be describing the rapture of the church.


I'm not claiming that every pre-tribber that uses Rev 4 in support of their position sees it in this same manner, but a long, long time ago, I used to be pre-trib, and I sort of remember that Rev 4 was interpreted in this manner. Of course they also used other books of the NT to further support this idea.

TexasBeliever
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:41 PM
IBW Regarding your post abbreviated below...


Thank you for your response. I read it 3 times. I am still not getting where my mental block is. This is very frustrating as I am sincere in getting a handle on where the differences between the two camps lie. Once I understand the key point of confusion then I can decide. As it is I find my search must continue. I will be watching this board a lot for comments and explanations and will try to post serious cogent and specific questions... But I won't respond just for the sake of acknowledging unless I can add something useful or ask an even more narrowing question. I noticed while watching this bit of thread that other brothers(sisters) do a fine job or making points or countering..

Thanks:hmm:


DragonFighter1:

I have been where you are. After many years of studying and still not having it settled in my mind (and practically going nuts because of the uncertainty) I spent another 10 years in supplication to God for answers. I met a friend on the board which led to many conversations. Between her patience with me, talking to others on the board and re-reading the scriptures coutless times, I felt I had everything answered to my satisfaction in the space of about 6 months.
In my case God saw that I was losing patience, and I think He needed to give me a refresher course.
I want to give you encouragement. Just stick with it. The answers you seek will be revealed to you.

TexasBeliever
Oct 3rd 2008, 10:50 PM
Oh and about the preparation part: I was practically numb with fear when I had been convinced posttrib was correct.
IMO there is no way to prepare physically. Our preparation is mental, emotional and spiritual. Everytime Jesus speaks about being prepared, He's refering to us being strong in faith.

We have to put on the armor of God and that is FAITH armor. In order not to be deceived, we have to have knowledge of the scriptures. In order not to fall to apostasy, we have to be convinced that Jesus is Who He said He was and love Him unto death for the sake of the glory that is to come.
There is even a statement in Revelation that goes like this: "Those (believers) who are destined for captivity shall go into captivity; those who are destined to die by the sword shall die by the sword. Here is why the saints must have patient endurance."
In other words; it's going to get nasty for believers. Jesus has told us all about it beforehand, as He said.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed, but it is not forearmed for a physical battle, but a spiritual one.

Richard H
Oct 3rd 2008, 11:52 PM
TexasBeliever’s recent post prompted me to write this.
If I am wrong about the timing and get “snatched up”, that’s OK with me.
Warning – this is a little heavy.

This is not to scare you into believing on way or the other.
Only you can decide what you believe!

But being post-trib… well 7th Trumpet, is much more than a theological stance, which is why some of the debate gets heated at times.

If we are living close to the last days, and you do come to the conclusion that pre-trib is wishful thinking, there will be some emotional fallout as you come to grips with the reality of your prospects.

I can give you a little idea of what you will go through, if you fully accept the 7th Trump “stance”.
It’s more than theology it’s a rollercoaster with a great “finish”.

My love and prayers for all of you,
Richard

Fear
I don’t want to die!
I don’t want it to be painful!
Where can I go to get out of the way?

Sorrow
I wanted a longer life!
I can’t escape it.
I may not have time to get some fruit.
I don’t have “enough”.

Depression
Mourning - for a life which may be cut short.
Feelings of helplessness

Acceptance & even Embracing
What is a shortened life compared to eternity with the Almighty?
This world is way messed up and corrupt. We need a righteous King.
Deeper reliance on God.
Deeper love for God.
Deeper appreciation of Jesus on the cross – grace through love and mercy.
Knowing that a time may come when I will have absolutely nothing, but Christ and being more than grateful I am His.
Deeper love of the Word.
Understanding that even the sword or worse is only temporary.
Getting real priorities in proper order.
Looking forward - no matter the immediate future.
Feeling as close to God as ever and trusting the He will help me stand firm.
More of a desire to please YHWH – for the sake of pleasing Him.
More of a desire to reach out to the lost or in need of help – not to gain “fruit”, but because they are loved by He who loved me (you) first.

:pray:

wpm
Oct 4th 2008, 12:02 AM
Umm. Not sure about this question...


You know, if it is a post trib situation what on earth (pun WAS intended:lol:) are we going to do to survive?

Would it be possible to have a chat thread about how to prepare??

People have a perception of a 7 yr trib, however, I don't see it in Scripture. I believe it is intra-Advent. The Scripture show how tribulation has always been the believers lot - if they live godly in Christ. I have just finished reading about the Church in China. Try telling them that we are not in the trib. Also, 40,000,000 believers were killed in the middle ages by the RCC. It is an ongoing reality for the Church generally.

Paul

Dragonfighter1
Oct 4th 2008, 03:02 AM
IBWATCHING... Regrading your lost sheep quote...
I started a new thread for that verse alone. WOuld you mind popping over to it and giving your opinion. Thanks.

dworthington
Oct 4th 2008, 10:41 AM
I am a pre-trib believer but my main point is that regardless of how or what we believe about the rapture, to day is another day closer. Are we witnessing?
By the way, there is good scholorship concerning these views. Again, are we witnessing?

crush
Oct 4th 2008, 03:22 PM
I already gave you residual proof that the saints in Rev 20:6 can't be Church saints. But now you know the foundation I laid that proof on. :)

I'm assuming that this is the "proof" you are referring to?


These saints who died in the tribulation had not yet been priests, so they can't be Church saints. Since this resurrection is the last of the Righteous, the resurrection of dead Church saints must have occurred before this one.

Where is the proof that the saints that died in the tribulation had not been priests? As described in Revelation 1:6 and 1 Peter 2:9?

In 1 Peter 2:9 the reasons that believers are called "priests" is explained as so "ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light"

sounds like the spreading of the testimony of Jesus is why believers are referred to as "priests"? Isn't this part of the reason that the tribulation martyrs are killed?

Rev 20:4 ....."who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus"

John is speaking about the martyrs [in Rev 20:6] - after they have been killed - they are not priests at this time, because priesthood would require an interaction with the living. Because they will be resurrected to priesthood does not in any way mean that they didn't satisfy the requirements of priesthood in 1 Peter 2:9 before they were killed.

tango
Oct 4th 2008, 04:29 PM
If I believe something, I must continually justify that belief if I still don't have a peace about it. If I am at peace about it, I don't have the need to convert others to that position or to keep justifying it to myself.

Unfortunately taking this argument to its conclusion would mean there is no need to tell others about Jesus, since I am at peace about my own beliefs. Which directly contradicts his explicit instruction in Mark 16:15.

quiet dove
Oct 5th 2008, 03:57 AM
Unfortunately taking this argument to its conclusion would mean there is no need to tell others about Jesus, since I am at peace about my own beliefs. Which directly contradicts his explicit instruction in Mark 16:15.

Why would we have to convert someone to a particular end time view in order to preach the Gospel to them? I was saved many years before any exposure to any end time view, didn't make me any less saved.

tango
Oct 5th 2008, 02:23 PM
Why would we have to convert someone to a particular end time view in order to preach the Gospel to them? I was saved many years before any exposure to any end time view, didn't make me any less saved.

I wasn't talking about converting people to a particular end-time view, my point was that if we are too complacent in the "I'm secure in my beliefs" concept where it relates to Jesus then we end up not preaching the Gospel at all.

quiet dove
Oct 5th 2008, 03:09 PM
I wasn't talking about converting people to a particular end-time view, my point was that if we are too complacent in the "I'm secure in my beliefs" concept where it relates to Jesus then we end up not preaching the Gospel at all.

You are kinda losing me, I guess I find the more secure I am, the more I grow closer to Him the better my witness is. But I think we are getting off topic. I'm confused and I am probably derailing, I misunderstood what you meant.

tango
Oct 5th 2008, 04:25 PM
OK, let's cut that one short and get back to topic :)

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 06:34 PM
Unfortunately taking this argument to its conclusion would mean there is no need to tell others about Jesus, since I am at peace about my own beliefs. Which directly contradicts his explicit instruction in Mark 16:15.

You needed to read all my posts prior to that one. We are dealing with end times' positions here, not the Gospel.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 8th 2008, 05:15 PM
Rev. 3:10 does not use the word rapture but seems to speak of a rapture type event. Also the rapture is a great parallel of a typical Jewish wedding at the time.

The father prepares the house, and tells the son when he feels it is completed. Then the Son calls down to the bride to come up because the house is prepared. They consumate the marriage for "a week" and then the marriage supper/celebration begins after that.

Does it get any more clear than that?

mfowler12
Oct 8th 2008, 08:21 PM
Rev. 3:10 does not use the word rapture but seems to speak of a rapture type event. Also the rapture is a great parallel of a typical Jewish wedding at the time.

The father prepares the house, and tells the son when he feels it is completed. Then the Son calls down to the bride to come up because the house is prepared. They consumate the marriage for "a week" and then the marriage supper/celebration begins after that.

Does it get any more clear than that?

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate just a bit more?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 12:20 AM
Rev. 3:10 does not use the word rapture but seems to speak of a rapture type event. Also the rapture is a great parallel of a typical Jewish wedding at the time.

The father prepares the house, and tells the son when he feels it is completed. Then the Son calls down to the bride to come up because the house is prepared. They consumate the marriage for "a week" and then the marriage supper/celebration begins after that.

Does it get any more clear than that?

Well actually only sort of.... I looked up rev 3:10 in the greek linear at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev3.pdf
and dont quite see what you see. Perhaps you can amplify since you understand it more fully than I. (I want to understand your point accurately.)

Also I understood that in traditional greek wedding the groom went to the brides home and walked back with her to his home... perhaps I am wrong but I seem to remember it that way. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for helping:)

mfowler12
Oct 9th 2008, 02:39 PM
Well actually only sort of.... I looked up rev 3:10 in the greek linear at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev3.pdf
and dont quite see what you see. Perhaps you can amplify since you understand it more fully than I. (I want to understand your point accurately.)

Also I understood that in traditional greek wedding the groom went to the brides home and walked back with her to his home... perhaps I am wrong but I seem to remember it that way. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for helping:)
Do you mean greek or jewish on the wedding?

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 02:42 PM
If the restrainer talked about in II Thess 2:6-7 is the Holy Spirit, then at least we know that the anti christ will not be revealed until he is taken away for a while (rapture)

IBWatching
Oct 9th 2008, 05:24 PM
...Does it get any more clear than that?

You DO realize that in this case the Bride is part gentile (or neither Jew nor gentile, take your pick), don't you? ;)

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 05:28 PM
Hmmm
One thing I never could grasp about pre-trib AND the restrainer being the Holy Spirit:

One needs the Holy Spirit in order to drawn to and to embrace Christ.
One needs the Holy Spirit in order to be born again.
If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way…

Where do all these supposed post rapture saints come from?
You know - the martyrs.

Richard

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 05:45 PM
Do you mean :ogreek:o or jewish on the wedding?

You are correct to assume I made an error. I did indeed mean JEWISH. Thanks for pointing that out.:)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 05:51 PM
Hmmm
One thing I never could grasp about pre-trib AND the restrainer being the Holy Spirit:

One needs the Holy Spirit in order to drawn to and to embrace Christ.
One needs the Holy Spirit I order to be born again.
If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way…

Where do all these supposed post rapture saints come from?
You know - the martyrs.

Richard

Good Question.. I don't think there is an answer that will fit smoothly... ...but maybe I'm wrong.
My big issue is... how there can be a pre-trib rapture when it says plainly in Thessalonians that the dead in Christ MUST be raised first (Before the living saints) and in Rev 20:5 it clearly states that the dead in Christ are raised at the same time at the millennium begins. ...But I am not skilled enough to argue that point fully yet.

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 05:59 PM
Hmmm
One thing I never could grasp about pre-trib AND the restrainer being the Holy Spirit:

One needs the Holy Spirit in order to drawn to and to embrace Christ.
One needs the Holy Spirit in order to be born again.
If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way…

Where do all these supposed post rapture saints come from?
You know - the martyrs.

Richard

People will still be able to be saved after the rapture. God's word will not pass on after the rapture. Plus you would think that some people left behind had at least heard of the concept of the rapture and maybe flock to God's word after contemplating, "where'd all these suckas go?"

quiet dove
Oct 9th 2008, 06:13 PM
Hmmm
One thing I never could grasp about pre-trib AND the restrainer being the Holy Spirit:

One needs the Holy Spirit in order to drawn to and to embrace Christ.
One needs the Holy Spirit I order to be born again.
If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way…

Where do all these supposed post rapture saints come from?
You know - the martyrs.

Richard

Folks were saved by faith, Jesus death atoning for all sin - of OT faithful, prior to Pentecost, why would the rapture of the Church prevent anyone from being saved during the tribulation?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 06:45 PM
Folks were saved by faith, Jesus death atoning for all sin - of OT faithful, prior to Pentecost, why would the rapture of the Church prevent anyone from being saved during the tribulation?

I think the issue at this point in the discussion is...the absence of the Holy Spirit... (But perhaps I misunderstand)

No H.S.= No sealing with salvation etc..., no keeping, no advocate etc...:confused

..And there is still the other question I mentioned earlier... that if we MUST follow (not precede) the resurrection of the dead in Christ, (as stated in Thessalonians) and if they aren't raised until Rev 20:5 how can there be resurrection before the "first" Resurrection of rev 20:5

Before you answer please understand I am asking respectfully. Many times I thought I understood something only to realize how wrong I was. That may be the case here too, but this is where I find my conundrum at the moment. (Thanks):hmm:

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 9th 2008, 06:48 PM
Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 06:50 PM
Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(:(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part:()

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 07:10 PM
Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(:(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part:()

Dragonfighter - The Holy Spirit will be removed before the coming of the antichrist (rapture). So if you're a christian, at that point you will already be gone.

Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 9th 2008, 07:27 PM
it makes most sense to think that the Holy Spirit's power through the Church will be gone, but not the Holy Spirit himself. And when i say power through the Church I mainly mean the city on a hill witnessing type of power.

DigReal
Oct 9th 2008, 08:22 PM
I know it's common to believe the Holy Spirit = the restrainer, but is that spelled out in scripture? I'm drawing a blank trying to remember.

TexasBeliever
Oct 9th 2008, 08:39 PM
Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(:(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part:()

I'm convinced the restrainer is not the holy spirit for two reasons: Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age." The end of THIS age concludes when He comes back to the earth to begin His reign on the throne of David. His holy spirit will be with us until then.
Reason 2: Michael is stated as being "the gaurdian of your people" (Israel), in the scriptures. It is Michael who guards and protects Israel and when He is ordered to step aside, then Israel will be unprotected.

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 08:51 PM
Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.
I almost fell out of my chair when I scrolled up to read your message.
'Just wasn't expecting your avatar! :rofl:


There’re two schools of thought as to exactly who is raised in the first resurrection:

All the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:16)
Just the Apostles and the martyrs. The rest of the Christians being raised with everyone else. (Rev 20:4-6)
A very small school, but valid nevertheless.
Actually three. Ranging FROM: those who didn’t know there are two resurrections TO those who never thought about it.
Not exactly a school.
Neither concept really helps answer the question of pre or post or whatever.
And I don’t think it’ll be a question on the final. :rolleyes:

I lean toward 7th trump, since Hal Lynsay’s favorite verse (1 Thes 4:13-17) - proving the validity of the rapture - actually states the sequence of events.
That part escaped Hal – just as it escaped Darby.

If we can determine where in Revelation, the 1st resurrection occurs, we can be sure that the rapture is not far behind.
Specifically dealing with the trumpets: 1 Thes 4:16 - 1 Cor 15:52 - Rev 10:7 - Rev 11:15.

Richard

DigReal
Oct 9th 2008, 09:11 PM
I think the issue at this point in the discussion is...the absence of the Holy Spirit... (But perhaps I misunderstand)

No H.S.= No sealing with salvation etc..., no keeping, no advocate etc...:confused

(Thanks):hmm:

While reading this thread, I had a thought... just a thought.

Could the restrainer be the Church's prayers for the world, perhaps responded to by the Holy Spirit in the form of restraint? If so, would not the removal of the Church also remove the restrainer... without the removal of the Holy Spirit?

(I'm not pushing pre-trib, or post for that matter.) Just presenting a possibility. :)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 09:20 PM
Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight:kiss:, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 09:32 PM
2nd Thessalonians seems to be written to a church who was upset – having come to the conclusion that they had been Left Behind. :o

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:1

TexesBeliever makes sense that the restrainer (2 Thes 2:7) is Michael.

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:1

War stories even of recent Israel (as told by opponents) tell of large angels with flaming swords - scaring off Israel’s enemies.
'One reason military academies don’t study these battles – they have no practical lessons for war.

crush
Oct 9th 2008, 09:44 PM
Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight:kiss:, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

I think you got it figured out DF :thumbsup:

The Holy Spirit being the restrainer and being removed from the Earth at the time He is MOST NEEDED is a classic example of bad doctrine gone bad LOL.

The world is not less wicked [or restrained] now than it was before Christ's ascension. The Holy Spirit's position is to be a Comforter, Helper, Teacher - etc. to CHRISTIANS, not prevent evil from occuring in an Evil World. Christians are not part of the world, and are not called to prevent evil things from happening, but rather expect them to happen.

We aren't told who the Restrainer is, so we have to guess. TexasBeliever has a good guess IMO, of Michael. Another good guess IMO would be the "angel with the key to the bottomless pit" - since he is "restraining" the beast "that will ascend out of the bottomless pit"

Holy Spirit being the restrainer is a super bad guess IMO.

DigReal
Oct 9th 2008, 10:03 PM
Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight:kiss:, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

To the pre-tribber, there is a resurrection of the dead in Christ just prior to a pre-trib rapture. At the end of trib/beginning of millennium, there is a second resurrection, of the tribulation martyrs (those killed for their new found acceptance of Christ), also called trib saints.

Hope that's what you're asking about, Dragonfighter. I also think it's reasonable to believe that Micheal is the restrainer (my earlier post being just another idea I've started considering... since I'm currently a pre-tribber). Either way, I doubt the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

And don't worry, you don't sound the least bit offensive. :)

markinro
Oct 9th 2008, 10:24 PM
When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

markinro
Oct 9th 2008, 10:27 PM
Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.

You know, for a second there - when I just glanced over at the avatar...then I thought "Nah, she wouldn't be on this board, would she ?"

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 10:34 PM
You know, for a second there - when I just glanced over at the avatar...then I thought "Nah, she wouldn't be on this board, would she ?"
I've seen Bennie Hin here too. :rolleyes:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 10:55 PM
When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all:idea:

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 11:26 PM
(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all:idea:
Evangelizing with a post trib/seventh trumpet message isn’t too attractive to the unsaved.
To be blunt:
Telling people that IF we are in the last days, there’s a chance they will not be able to buy or sell and may even get their head cut off, certainly won’t pack the pews.

Rather, the gospel should be the gospel as it always has been (until pre-trib came along).

Still, one must wonder how those of old were able to cling to their faith despite some horrible endings.
Do you think pre-trib churches are ready for such a possibility?

Discussions like these - among the saints - are valuable so that we might make our faith and trust even more steadfast - having dispensed the questions which plagued the Thessalonians, we are freed up to press on toward the higher calling.

If I’m wrong, and we all get a ticket out of town, that’s OK by me.
In the mean time, I want to deepen my relationship with the Lord, so I can better trust Him to see me through.

Richard

DigReal
Oct 9th 2008, 11:44 PM
Yes, it is an excellent point... arguments tend to divide, and that's the last thing the Church needs these days. However, discussions tend to enlighten... something we need to be doing in regards to the unsaved out there. And that leads to your next question, DF.

I now try to live by "pray for pre-trib, prepare for post trib". When I started to really study end times prophecy (only 2 months ago), I believed there was no reason for the Church of today to somehow be spared the tribulation. After all, for 2000 years Christians have faced atrocities hard to imagine by those of us blessed to be living in the U.S. today. I still believe that!

From what I've learned so far, the only instruction for preparation I can find is to not be afraid... the Lord will provide. I think I know what to make of that, but not certain yet. So, I'm with you, DF... let's hear what others have to say.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 10th 2008, 01:16 AM
Evangelizing with a post trib/seventh trumpet message isn’t too attractive to the unsaved.
To be blunt:
Telling people that IF we are in the last days, there’s a chance they will not be able to buy or sell and may even get their head cut off, certainly won’t pack the pews.
Richard

HOWLS OF DERISIVE LAUGHTER:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 10th 2008, 01:18 AM
No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....:confused

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 01:34 AM
No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....:confused

AWww... And I tried to sneek that past everybody. :rolleyes: Heehee

Food and water is good.
Cans - Dried - water filter
'May be needed with this economy anyway.

Richard

markinro
Oct 10th 2008, 03:33 AM
No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....:confused

Why the concern ? You're not of this world.

markinro
Oct 10th 2008, 03:34 AM
(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all:idea:

The same way we lived before the tribulation. Why would it be any different ?

TexasBeliever
Oct 10th 2008, 12:40 PM
Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight:kiss:, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

You are right. Resurrection is before rapture. And in the scriptures it happens at the physical coming of the Lord, so that is when the rapture also happens. This proves that the res/rap does not happen at the beginning of the end of days. It also proves that since believers are not subject to the wrath of God, everything that happens up to the physical coming of the Lord is tribulation. As the Lord said, "after the tribulation of those days, THEN you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and He will gather His chosen from one end of heaven to the other." It also states that at this same point, "Now is the time to reward your servants and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Dragonfighter1
Oct 10th 2008, 12:42 PM
The same way we lived before the tribulation. Why would it be any different ?

Well, ermm, if for the sake of this discussion we are going to assume that we must survive through the trib..... then the question is valid.

It should be considered because the persecution we will endure will/may be easier to endure if we were appropriately prepared.

( I think):hmm:

TexasBeliever
Oct 10th 2008, 12:48 PM
2nd Thessalonians seems to be written to a church who was upset – having come to the conclusion that they had been Left Behind. :o

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:1

TexesBeliever makes sense that the restrainer (2 Thes 2:7) is Michael.

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:1

War stories even of recent Israel (as told by opponents) tell of large angels with flaming swords - scaring off Israel’s enemies.
'One reason military academies don’t study these battles – they have no practical lessons for war.

Correct. Not only were they afraid they had been left behind, but now they were going to be subject to the wrath of the Lamb.
Paul assured them that two things must come before the wrath of God (Day of the Lord) AND our gathering together unto the Lord: the apostasy of believers and the revelation of the antichrist, which Paul said happens when he declares himself God while in the temple.
By the way, the antichrist is going to be "revealed" ie: publicly to Israel and the world, the same way that Jesus revealed Himself. Jesus stood in the temple and said, "The Father and I are one and the same."

TexasBeliever
Oct 10th 2008, 12:56 PM
When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

Further commenting on your point concerning mention of the churches in Revelation, many people seem to overlook the fact that Revelation is given TO THE CHURCHES. Why do that at all if the churches are gone?
Then Revelation closes with: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

TexasBeliever
Oct 10th 2008, 01:06 PM
When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

I have to disagree with the statement "The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless."
Really? Jesus didn't think so. He thought it was extremenly important. He told us this and this and this, etc, etc., is going to happen. He said do not be deceived. He said terrible times will happen in the last days. He said you will be persecuted and put to death. He said "I have told you everything before hand." Why? so that we would be prepared mentally and spiritually.
But here we are, on the very cusp of these prophecies being fulfilled and
a huge portion of the church isn't even aware of endtime prophecies; and
a huge portion of the church dosen't think we will be here for the endtime prophecies.
Rapture position is extremely important. If scripture points to a posttrib rapture, and I beleive it does, then this tells us everything that happens up to that point is tribulation (the events Jesus warned us about) and we will be involved in it.

TexasBeliever
Oct 10th 2008, 01:26 PM
Well, ermm, if for the sake of this discussion we are going to assume that we must survive through the trib..... then the question is valid.

It should be considered because the persecution we will endure will/may be easier to endure if we were appropriately prepared.

( I think):hmm:

I went over and over in my mind how to physically prepare for this. So far I haven't thought of anything.
I realized that we won't be able to store anything in our home because if we can't buy and sell we won't be able to make house payments or pay the taxes.
And once we refuse the mark of the beast there will probably be a bounty on our heads, literally. So in order to even have the possibility of survival, we will have to be in hiding far away from cities and towns. So that would leave swamps, forests, etc. And if they come looking for us there, we won't even be able to build a fire for warmth or cooking. And if they have night vision or heat signature devices, there won't be anywhere to hide except maybe caves. It's bleak.

tango
Oct 10th 2008, 01:39 PM
Is the idea to run and hide, and end up dying like a hunted animal? Or is the idea to preach to those who are hunting us, in the hope that the Spirit will convict them through us?

Incidentally, if we're hiding in groups in a cave we can probably be detected from the carbon dioxide we exhale. Or from anything we used to cast some light around.

markinro
Oct 10th 2008, 03:14 PM
Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 04:35 PM
I’ve often wondered even before I came to the 7th Trump conclusion, “why would pre-tribbers spend so much time studying and analyzing a time when in their words: ‘we won’t be here’”.
It seemed to be almost (what’s the word people like to use now?) “Schadenfreude”.

A supply of water and dry/canned goods and even lamp oil and batteries: are always helpful during an emergency, but you are not going to get “enough” to last 7 or even 3 ½ years.
Then you have the problem of protecting your stash from possible marauders. Will you get a gun and shoot them?
Having a bicycle is a good idea.
It may even be possible to prepay your property taxes, but who has that kind of money?

Rather, provide for yourself and your family for a “short” duration as best you can.
Concentrate on drawing near to God and bringing the Good News to those you encounter.
Pray.
Trust in the Lord and try not to worry about tomorrow too much.
Today’s problems are enough to deal with. God is able to keep you in His hand.

Digging in and hiding under a rock gives no glory to God.

Even if you don’t think the time is close or you are still convinced of the pre-trib rapture – it does not matter.
We should be about our Father’s business.
We are no longer of this world, and our time here is short, so make the most of it, by strengthening your faith, helping the needy, and leading the blind to the One who has the future in His hands.

Richard

markdrums
Oct 10th 2008, 04:53 PM
I'd like to point out something "deeper" about the orginal post. (Which has since kinda derailed a bit...)

When Markedward explained why he disagrees with the "Pre-Trib" viewpoint, he mentioned the difference between exegesis & eisegesis.

This is important on a bigger level than just determining a viepoint & opinion on "The Rapture".

If someone bases their beliefs by reading EISEGETICALLY, how much more of the Bible is misinterpreted & misunderstood for the very same reason?

This brings to mind the questions / issues like:
"A 3rd Temple"?
"Salvation by grace or by works?"
"ALWAYS SAVED.. or not always Saved"?
"Baptism REQUIRED for salvation"?
"Was the work FINISHED on the cross"? "Or did Jesus have to suffer in Hell too"?
"What did Jesus REALLY mean during the Olivet Discourse"? - "Did he mean a far-future generation when he said THIS generation"?
"When he says some of those standing there would not tatse death", did he mean just that? Or not?
"When John wrote TO the seven churches in Asia, and told them the time was NEAR / at hand / and would SOON TAKE PLACE, did he really mean over 2000 years later?"

So, there's much more importance in learing to read scripture EXEGETICALLY than just to figure out your "Rapture" viewpoint.
By not reading it & interpreting it as it was intended, & letting SCRIPTURE ITSELF be the key to understanding it, you can end up totally missing the mark, and coming up with some bizzare interpretations.

That's pretty much all I have to add at this time.

Just think about it..... ask yourself what's REALLY important when you read the Bible. Knowing WHAT GOD SAID... or making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to?

markinro
Oct 10th 2008, 05:18 PM
I'd like to point out something "deeper" about the orginal post. (Which has since kinda derailed a bit...)

When Markedward explained why he disagrees with the "Pre-Trib" viewpoint, he mentioned the difference between exegesis & eisegesis.

This is important on a bigger level than just determining a viepoint & opinion on "The Rapture".

If someone bases their beliefs by reading EISEGETICALLY, how much more of the Bible is misinterpreted & misunderstood for the very same reason?

This brings to mind the questions / issues like:
"A 3rd Temple"?
"Salvation by grace or by works?"
"ALWAYS SAVED.. or not always Saved"?
"Baptism REQUIRED for salvation"?
"Was the work FINISHED on the cross"? "Or did Jesus have to suffer in Hell too"?
"What did Jesus REALLY mean during the Olivet Discourse"? - "Did he mean a far-future generation when he said THIS generation"?
"When he says some of those standing there would not tatse death", did he mean just that? Or not?
"When John wrote TO the seven churches in Asia, and told them the time was NEAR / at hand / and would SOON TAKE PLACE, did he really mean over 2000 years later?"

So, there's much more importance in learing to read scripture EXEGETICALLY than just to figure out your "Rapture" viewpoint.
By not reading it & interpreting it as it was intended, & letting SCRIPTURE ITSELF be the key to understanding it, you can end up totally missing the mark, and coming up with some bizzare interpretations.

That's pretty much all I have to add at this time.

Just think about it..... ask yourself what's REALLY important when you read the Bible. Knowing WHAT GOD SAID... or making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to?

The title of this thead "Why I disagree with the pre-trib rapture". We have stayed on topic. Which posts have diverged ?

I agree with your comment. The pre-trib position is a prime example of "making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to"

yoSAMite
Oct 11th 2008, 09:22 PM
Concerning the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. I believe that the correct full answer is that the restrainer is "the indewlt Holy Spirit in the church."

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique and specific role within the church as demonstrated by the verses below.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

So I take it to mean that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or the Comforter in this special role. This by no means restricts the Holy Spirit in any other capacity to indwell other saints, both OT saints nor post church saints.

yoSAMite
Oct 11th 2008, 09:50 PM
Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:


False christs, wars and rumors of wars
Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
Then persecution of the followers of Christ
Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
The gospel preached to all
Then the end will come
Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

Where in this time line would the death of Stephen in about 54AD fall. I would think that it was before #1 as Luke 21:12 states "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, ...". You seem to be using Matthew 24 as your outline Matt 24:9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you." I see a bit of a conflict here.

Concerning #8, this is your Eisegesis as the text doesn't imply the armies siege of Jerusalem has anything to do with the "abomination that causes desolation." Luke does speak of the desolation of Jerusalem, but I don't believe that is the same as the AOD.

With #7 I've been thinking about this since you thread on "the meaning of near and time." By your reckoning shouldn't the end already have come if it was near after the destruction of Jerusalem?

divaD
Oct 12th 2008, 03:45 PM
Concerning the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. I believe that the correct full answer is that the restrainer is "the indewlt Holy Spirit in the church."

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique and specific role within the church as demonstrated by the verses below.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

So I take it to mean that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or the Comforter in this special role. This by no means restricts the Holy Spirit in any other capacity to indwell other saints, both OT saints nor post church saints.




I still have to wonder, has anyone even taken the time to check the last part of this verse in the Greek?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 until he be taken out of the way




taken----ginomai
Pronunciation

ge'-no-mi (Key)
Part of Speech

verb
Root Word (Etymology)

a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary
verb
TDNT Reference

1:681,117
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

a) of events

3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

a) of men appearing in public

4) to be made, finished

a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought

5) to become, be made

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++



out---ek
Pronunciation

ek (Key)
Part of Speech

preposition
Root Word (Etymology)

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point
whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of
place, time, or cause; literal or figurative
TDNT Reference

n/a
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) out of, from, by, away from
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++



way--mesos


Part of Speech

adjective
Root Word (Etymology)

from G3326
TDNT Reference

n/a
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) middle

2) the midst

3) in the midst of, amongst
__________________________________________________ _________________________



I still want to know how anyone can claim that anyone is being taken out of the way? That's not what the Greek is saying.

Ask yourself these questions, then see if the text answers them?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Know what that withholdeth? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

Who might be revealed in his time? That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.



only he who now letteth.

Restrains what? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.


until he be taken out of the way.


Until who arises, comes on stage out of the midst? The son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This answers the entire passage.

Acerohombre
Oct 12th 2008, 04:49 PM
Look, I know everybody wants to be happy and everybody wants to believe that Jesus has them nestled up with His arms all wrapped around them all warm and fuzzy completely out of harms way but it simply doesn't follow the Bible. It's really more of the opposite.

We have been repeatedly warned that we are sheep being led to the slaughter. Our roots need to grow deep and people who believe that there will be a pre-trib rapture very well may wilt under pressure if they are tried. They might get that "why isn't Jesus here" attitude when they need to set in their hearts that it's much more fruitful to DIE a believer than to place their trust in this make believe pre-trib rapture event. I don't mind telling anyone that it's just an outright fib. The history associated with it's "discovery" into theology is highly suspect and doubted.

I didn't read all of the posts for forgive me if I am duplicating. There's just so much to read. I really only wanted to comment on the first original post.

Again, I too never felt comfortable with Pre-tib rapture theology. John representing the "church" just didn't sit well with me. When you read Rev it is made clear that the Antichrist figure is to make "war with the Saints." Simply said, there can't be a war with the Saints (Rev 13:7) if Christians are not alive on the Earth at the time of the Great Tribulation.

When you read Rev you will see identifications of believers. In the early portion of the book they are referred to as "washed their robes" which is an indication that they believed before the events that are taking place to bring about the end. Rev 7:14 is a great indication of that as you see a multitude of people who have "washed their robes with the blood of the Lamb." The dead in Christ shall rise first.

When you continue on in Rev and you get to Chapter 14 you will find the rewards of the Saint for being patient in great tribulation.

Rev 14:12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now, when you parallel these events with what we commonly know as the "rapture" in 1 Thes 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Now, when does all of this take place? Rev Ch 14 are events that take place as the last trumpet is being sounded all the way back in Rev Ch 11. Chapters 12 and 13 are somewhat historical or a summarization and it's more like a "meanwhile, back at the office" kind of thing too but it's bringing all of the events to this culmination in Ch 14.

Ch 13 clearly shows us the Antichrist and the False Prophet. Ch 14 warns not to worship him. The temptation to worship the AC is the test that is coming to try the whole world and even we as Christians will be tempted to do so. All peoples of the Earth are going to be tried in this manner except for true believing Christians. When you go back to Rev 3: 10.in the letter to the church of Philadelphia, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

And I always like to follow up this with a reminder of the Lord's prayer in that Jesus so rightfully says "and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil".

And, if you go further into Rev, from Ch 14 on you will see that believers are now the ones that must die by beheading rather than from the blood of the Lamb in order to stand redeemed in front of the throne at the judgment.

And to add a little more....

In the letters to the churches you see this statement at the end of each letter, "He that hath an ear, let him hear", but just preceding the "rapture" event in Ch 14 that will remove those that are alive and remain, to keep them from the hour of temptation, to keep them from worshiping the beast and his image, you see a similar statement in Rev 13 at the disclosing of the AC and FP but it says "IF any man have an ear, let him hear" which is God's final warning to the inhabitants of the earth for now is the time of his judgment.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 12th 2008, 06:47 PM
Not to stir the pot too much...but...If I was the devil and I wanted to really make my end times efforts as effective as possible...

I would:

1./ Infiltrate the church and fill it with as much confusion and false doctrine as I could get away with

2./ Get them to fight over stuff one group calls silly and the other calls important

3./ Get them to feel safe so that my attack is so much more effective and damaging

Looks to me like all of us have fallen for some of his tricks in some way or another... None of us is impervious. However the pretrib theory may be one of the most damaging. Lets face it, if we are not planning and thinking about how to survive the trib/end times etc... then we are going to be the most hurt and confused when it occurs.

I think it will be a little like the children of Israel when they went into captivity. I'm sure there were a great many that said "God will see us through", "God will not let his people suffer" and similar statements.

I fear for those who really think that hardship is something we are protected from. History disproves that.

This is just my opinion and I do not seek to hurt anyone feelings.

quiet dove
Oct 12th 2008, 07:41 PM
Well, being pre trib, you guys can assume a human being to be able to stand up against the wrath of God and spend time trying to figure out how to do it, good luck to ya.

No, I will make no attempt to kid my self on being able to handle what God can dish out, besides, He promised His children were not destined to wrath so I am not going to fear His wrath. In the next life, or this one either. And as far as Satan goes, he can do nothing but kill my physical body, same today as in the GT, if I were going to be here.

Our batttles are currently not against flesh and blood, why would anyone assume those battles are not going to begin until the GT, the Bible clearly states the battle is every day through out history. Regardless of a persons end time views, now is the time to learn to walk in the Spirit, that is what we are commanded to do.

Satan will be doing during the GT what he has been doing all along, attempting to kill the saints, however, God will be doing what He has not been doing all along, and that is pouring out His wrath upon the disobedient, and no, I don't for one second fear Him leaving me to suffer His wrath upon the disobedient upon the earth any more than I fear suffering His eternal judgment upon the disobedient.

But if you want to call that weak, then whatever suits you I guess. But my faith is strong enough that the One who loved me while I was still in my sin and died for me, is the same one that will keep me from the Fathers wrath, not only in the next life, but in this one also.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 12th 2008, 08:20 PM
Well, being pre trib, you guys can assume a human being to be able to stand up against the wrath of God and spend time trying to figure out how to do it, good luck to ya.

No, I will make no attempt to kid my self on being able to handle what God can dish out, besides, He promised His children were not destined to wrath so I am not going to fear His wrath. In the next life, or this one either. And as far as Satan goes, he can do nothing but kill my physical body, same today as in the GT, if I were going to be here.

Our batttles are currently not against flesh and blood, why would anyone assume those battles are not going to begin until the GT, the Bible clearly states the battle is every day through out history. Regardless of a persons end time views, now is the time to learn to walk in the Spirit, that is what we are commanded to do.

Satan will be doing during the GT what he has been doing all along, attempting to kill the saints, however, God will be doing what He has not been doing all along, and that is pouring out His wrath upon the disobedient, and no, I don't for one second fear Him leaving me to suffer His wrath upon the disobedient upon the earth any more than I fear suffering His eternal judgment upon the disobedient.

But if you want to call that weak, then whatever suits you I guess. But my faith is strong enough that the One who loved me while I was still in my sin and died for me, is the same one that will keep me from the Fathers wrath, not only in the next life, but in this one also.

Easy quiet Dove, I didn't mean to offend you :hug:. I don't think post tribbers fear Gods wrath either.. if we are his children we will be safe just at the children of Israel were during the plagues of Egypt. However the Antichrist will have greater power to create havoc for us then, and I think it would be wise to realize that yes all he can do is kill us, but before we die what can he put us through? My children being killed before my eyes is a real possibility (as the Jews of WWII saw) Anyone who thinks the GT will be a cake walk- no different than today- will have the hardest time adjusting.

quiet dove
Oct 12th 2008, 09:00 PM
Easy quiet Dove, I didn't mean to offend you :hug:. I don't think post tribbers fear Gods wrath either.. if we are his children we will be safe just at the children of Israel were during the plagues of Egypt. However the Antichrist will have greater power to create havoc for us then, and I think it would be wise to realize that yes all he can do is kill us, but before we die what can he put us through? My children being killed before my eyes is a real possibility (as the Jews of WWII saw) Anyone who thinks the GT will be a cake walk- no different than today- will have the hardest time adjusting.

I have to admit, it is a sore spot with me, but just as much in defense of others, not limited to only me. However, I am not angry but just trying to make a point so let me back up some an clarifiy why.

I believe the GT is God's wrath and I believe that based on Rev 6 in that Christ is the only one worthy to open the seals of His Fathers wrath. The disobedient have sinned against Him and He is the only one worthy. That is why or one of the whys I believe we will not be here for the GT, the wrath of God.

To equate this time of wrath with the trials and tribulations Christians are told they will endure to me is inaccurate. Yes, we are taught that we will follow in Christ foot steps, or we should strive to do so and not be surprised when, like Christ, we are persecuted. But that is not God's wrath.

We are also told that a Father who loves, chastises and disciplines, but again, that chastisment and discipline is not God's wrath.

Also, being pre trib does not equate to thinking life will be all roses until we leave here. There may be some who teach that, but there are people teaching things in all views that the mainstream of that view disagrees with.

And what about the people here now, the hungry, homeless, lonely, scared, not to mention the persecutted and suffering. Thinking that pre tribbers selfishly are only concerned about themselves is wrong. When that trumpet blows, say it blew today, I would be taken from what is a peaceful pretty good life. I'm not rich or anything, far from it. But I have people I love that love me, I am free to worship as I please and living in peace. But if that trumpet blows today, I am taken from a pretty good set up here. But, what about those, who if that trumpet blew today would be taken from suffering, persecution, hunger, homelessness, lonelyness. Do other views really think I, or other pre tribbers, only want the rapture just for ourselves? Far from it.

I think what frustrates me the most is the awesome mercy and grace that gets looked over in the whole bash the pre trib rapture business. I understand that is not the intention, but none the less, it is a reprocussion of it.

Discipline and chastisement, which are the trials God allows, yes. His wrath, no. Are we refined by trials/persecution, maybe, but I would say the way to be refined is obedience and the "washing of water by the Word". the discipline and chastisement bring us back to the obedience and the washing.

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 09:52 PM
Only the bowls of wrath are God's wrath.
We're all out of here at the 7th trumpet - the last trump.
None of us are destined for His wrath. :saint:

<just wanted to point that out - as it needed to be said>
Richard

tHbaGLORY
Oct 13th 2008, 05:10 AM
I gotta say...I am tired of other rapture positions assuming that pre-tribbers are going to be duped by the AC or abandon their faith if a pre-trib rapture does not occur. As Christians we are indwelt with the Spirit of God himself and our adoption as sons and daughters is undeniable and unbreakable. The persecutions of Christians in some parts of the world are as bad now as it will be for Christians during the tribulation. Is the Christian that dies for his faith now any less dead than a Christian martyred during the tribulation??? What have we to fear?? Is it our own minds that prepare us to die for our faith--or is it the work of the Holy Spirit??? I think we all know the answer to that question given how pathetically weak our minds are. Not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my father in heaven and who by worrying can add one more hour to their life??? Our victory is won in Christ. I am eternally secure, and the Holy Spirit of God himself will see me through anything that I might face--and that goes for ALL followers of Christ Jesus...

mtms540
Oct 14th 2008, 01:34 AM
`And immediately after the tribulation of those days, 1) the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light…then shall 2) all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and 3) they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory…`And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer nigh, so also ye, when ye may see all these, ye know that it is nigh -- at the doors. Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.
YLT

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and 1) [I]the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And 2) the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and 3) hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and 3) from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of 3) his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Read very carefully and pray for wisdom!

Dragonfighter1
Oct 14th 2008, 01:55 AM
`And immediately after the tribulation of those days, 1) the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light…then shall 2) all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and 3) they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory…`And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer nigh, so also ye, when ye may see all these, ye know that it is nigh -- at the doors. Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.
YLT

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and 1) [I]the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And 2) the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and 3) hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and 3) from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of 3) his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Read very carefully and pray for wisdom!

so his wrath begins on the sixth day.. got it.
So that means....................?

Acerohombre
Oct 14th 2008, 02:28 AM
Wrath of the Lamb is not the same as the Wrath of God. Different times. See also "Day of the Lord".

wesand24
Oct 14th 2008, 10:27 PM
If it is post trib, then your are saying you know when it is going to happen? Yet the Bible says that day is not known

mtms540
Oct 14th 2008, 10:29 PM
Wrath of the Lamb is not the same as the Wrath of God. Different times. See also "Day of the Lord".

…the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day…the day of the LORD Isa 2:11,12 …they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty…In that day Isa 2:19,20 …the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger... 1) the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:9,10

1) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joe2:31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall 1) the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light…

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and 1) the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

mtms540
Oct 14th 2008, 10:39 PM
If it is post trib, then your are saying you know when it is going to happen? Yet the Bible says that day is not known


But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 14th 2008, 11:25 PM
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


AMEN! Why do pre-tribbers frequently use this very verse to try to undermine the post-trib position. It is disingenuous. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness.... :B (how much plainer can it be?) We may not know the minute or even the specific hour but by golly we can watch things develop and be ready... which is excactly what we are told to do. Yet the pre-tribbers (some of them I should say) think that they need not pay attention as they think it will be a big surprise.:confused

Fortunately there are may pre-tribbers who don't think this way and to those these comments are not directed.

wesand24
Oct 14th 2008, 11:28 PM
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


Day of the LORD is not the rapture, there will be many believers when the Day of the Lord arrives (Rev. 7:14), nevertheless "let us watch"

yoSAMite
Oct 14th 2008, 11:30 PM
John representing the "church" just didn't sit well with me. When you read Rev it is made clear that the Antichrist figure is to make "war with the Saints." Simply said, there can't be a war with the Saints (Rev 13:7) if Christians are not alive on the Earth at the time of the Great Tribulation.
I like you don't totally buy into John representing the church, but I do think that his calling up to heaven is a rapture of sorts. What I do find interesting is that when John arrives in heaven the 24 elders, who I believe represent the church are there.

To maybe clear up the position some, most pre-tribber believe that the church is a subset of saints, not the whole. Just a few subsets of saints - OT saints, the church, tribulation saints. So we do think Christians will be alive for Rev 13:7, the church won't.

vinsight4u8
Oct 14th 2008, 11:31 PM
Why do you think that eventually - when the four beasts give thanks....
the 24 elders cast off their crowns?

vinsight4u8
Oct 14th 2008, 11:35 PM
I don't see where there can be a rapture till the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the third woe earthquake.


then the remnant
of men give glory to the God of heaven


If you look at Rev. 19 - you will find more than one army of saints comes from heaven.

one is the trib martyrs
one is made up of everyone else

The everyone else army will head to fight the battle against the beast.
but
the trib martyred people already won their time of victory over him
////so they do not fight at the battle

they will just - live at the salvation time of chapter 19 and wait to reign by chapter 20

yoSAMite
Oct 15th 2008, 06:02 AM
Why do you think that eventually - when the four beasts give thanks....
the 24 elders cast off their crowns?
Out of reverence.

divaD
Oct 15th 2008, 03:05 PM
If it is post trib, then your are saying you know when it is going to happen? Yet the Bible says that day is not known



It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that if a post tribber remains watchful and faithful, when the Lord returns He won't be coming upon him/her as a thief. Why? Because they have been watchful, remained faithful and haven't gone apostate like so many others will do. Notice what Jesus said in Revelation 3:1-6. This passage, in an indirect manner, is also referring to apostacy, since this would be the opposite result of those heeding these warnings.

Another thought comes to mind here, and that's how pre-tribbers are contradicting themselves. All of us should agree that it's not a good thing for the Lord to come upon us like a thief in the night. So what do you actually think occurs in a pre-trib rapture? The Lord would be coming upon you as a thief in the night, since no one would have a clue when it supposedly occurs. How does one remain watchful for a pre-trib rapture? This whole idea contradicts everything written in Scripture concerning the return of the Lord.


Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 *He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

vinsight4u8
Oct 15th 2008, 03:15 PM
Out of reverence.

How about the 24 cast off their crowns because they are done being seated at the throne area?
It is time for Jesus Christ to come back as exalted alone.


They wosrhip - Him who liveth for ever and ever.

Till the church gets salvation such as shown in Rev. 7 and Rev. 19:1 - there won't be a rapture of the church.

Hebrews 9:28
1 Thess. 5:9
not appointed to wrath
but salvation

So any wrath that happens before salvation is to be endured by the church.

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 03:30 PM
Referring back to the original post, this is also why I disagree with the pre-trib view, (as well as the mainstream concept of "the rapture")

John, when writing to the seven churches, implies that the "Tribulation" had already begun.
Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He doesn't lead us to believe that the "tribulation" would be a "far future" event. He tells his readers that he is also in the tribulation with them.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 15th 2008, 03:46 PM
Referring back to the original post, this is also why I disagree with the pre-trib view, (as well as the mainstream concept of "the rapture")

John, when writing to the seven churches, implies that the "Tribulation" had already begun.
Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He doesn't lead us to believe that the "tribulation" would be a "far future" event. He tells his readers that he is also in the tribulation with them.

Tribulation and "The Great Tribulation" are two entirely different things. Its from the Greek "qliyei thlipsis" Meaning difficulty.

You could say it this way: We all have difficulties daily but a time is coming known as "the Great Difficulty"

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 04:08 PM
Tribulation and "The Great Tribulation" are two entirely different things. Its from the Greek "qliyei thlipsis" Meaning difficulty.

You could say it this way: We all have difficulties daily but a time is coming known as "the Great Difficulty"

Actually it's never described as "THE Great Tribulation"..... Only as "great tribulation"...

It's not a specific, singular, "major catastrophic event".....
Also, to note; in Mat. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You do realize that Jesus is using hyperbole here... right? Otherwise, he would be in direct contradiction with God's promise after the flood; which was the catastrophic event of all catastrophic events.

Jesus was emphasizing the point that things would soon be incredibly difficult for his followers.... worse than THEY PERSONALLY had ever experienced, or ever would again.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 15th 2008, 04:21 PM
Actually it's never described as "THE Great Tribulation"..... Only as "great tribulation"...

It's not a specific, singular, "major catastrophic event".....
Also, to note; in Mat. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You do realize that Jesus is using hyperbole here... right? Otherwise, he would be in direct contradiction with God's promise after the flood; which was the catastrophic event of all catastrophic events.

Jesus was emphasizing the point that things would soon be incredibly difficult for his followers.... worse than THEY PERSONALLY had ever experienced, or ever would again.

Your point is well made. The definite article is absent. :oGood catch.

However Trib and Great trib are two different things in these contexts, right?

Diggindeeper
Oct 15th 2008, 04:29 PM
You are welcome. :)

Don't be pre-trib just for the sake of getting along with those around you. I appreciate the fact that you are challenging them. If they can't give you sufficient reason to believe their position from the Scriptures, then IMO you are under no obligation to accept what they say just on the basis of them saying it. Examine it for yourself.

Here's a couple of passages that are foundational to the pre-trib position as I hold it:

Quote:
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In these verses you have Jesus clearly stating that His Ministry while on this earth, as well as that of His disciples, was focused on Israel. Yet how many times have I seen people from various end times' camps take statements that Jesus made to Israel and apply them to the Church! Most often when I have challenged this, the answer I get is that they also apply to the Church. But the Church didn't exist when Jesus made these statements. And again, Jesus was talking first to Israel.

My point in all this is that if you seriously desire to know the Truth about the end times, you have to apply things in the Gospels properly. And according to Jesus, that means His statements were directed to Israel. Getting back to what I told you about the resurrections, Jesus was teaching two separate resurrections to Israel here:

One of life, one of judgment. When Paul mentioned the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15, he only taught one to the Church, and said it was the next in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints when the one time gathering/changing of the Church takes place...in the air. Neither of the resurrections in Revelation 20 or any other one in that book mentions a changing of live saints which occurs with it (them).

I already gave you residual proof that the saints in Rev 20:6 can't be Church saints. But now you know the foundation I laid that proof on. :)

IBWatching, to me, this is a prime example of why we should NOT pull out ONE verse and form a doctrinal statement about it. First of all, we know from reading all scripture that Jesus was not sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel. He was sent that ALL might be saved. Here is the verse you selected, included in context of exactly what happened:

Matthew 15:21-
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus spoke by his actions here. He DID hear the woman who was not of the lost sheep of Israel, and he did respond, just as he always does, not only to the lost sheep of Israel, but to whosoever!

I offer that this one verse you quoted is useless to the pre-trib proof.

quiet dove
Oct 15th 2008, 04:34 PM
It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that if a post tribber remains watchful and faithful, when the Lord returns He won't be coming upon him/her as a thief. Why? Because they have been watchful, remained faithful and haven't gone apostate like so many others will do. Notice what Jesus said in Revelation 3:1-6. This passage, in an indirect manner, is also referring to apostacy, since this would be the opposite result of those heeding these warnings.

Another thought comes to mind here, and that's how pre-tribbers are contradicting themselves. All of us should agree that it's not a good thing for the Lord to come upon us like a thief in the night. So what do you actually think occurs in a pre-trib rapture? The Lord would be coming upon you as a thief in the night, since no one would have a clue when it supposedly occurs. How does one remain watchful for a pre-trib rapture? This whole idea contradicts everything written in Scripture concerning the return of the Lord.


Pre trib is not contradicting itself, the Lord coming as a thief in the night is not a surprise to the pre tribber, but to the world who realizes that a good number of folks apparently just got stolen from the earth by something. A thief in the night refers to the effect on the non believer, not the pre tribber who is watching. So the whole idea is not contradicting scripture when an accurate description of the idea is put forth.

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 04:35 PM
Your point is well made. The definite article is absent. :oGood catch.

However Trib and Great trib are two different things in these contexts, right?

I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 15th 2008, 04:35 PM
WHo are the lost sheep?

I posted this question in another thread and got only a few responses.

Is it Jews who are looking, or not looking. Is it Jews who are in the temple doing the sacrifices sincerely and correctly. It seems Jesus spent a lot of time trying to convince the pharasees even. So just who are the lost sheep?

Diggindeeper
Oct 15th 2008, 04:41 PM
Dragonfighter - The Holy Spirit will be removed before the coming of the antichrist (rapture). So if you're a christian, at that point you will already be gone.

Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.

Uh...where in the Bible do I find this?
(Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 15th 2008, 04:44 PM
I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?

I regret to admit... you have shaken a few of my foundations.....I must study this. Your point seems cogent...which makes it all the more difficult for me!:P

divaD
Oct 15th 2008, 04:58 PM
I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?




Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


markdrums, what does Matthew 24:3 mean to you, esp the part I have in bold letters? Doesn't this establish the context in which Jesus starts speaking in? How many ends of the world are there? And if the world already ended some 2000 yrs ago, where's Jesus? Why isn't He already here reigning forever and ever on this planet?

wesand24
Oct 15th 2008, 05:26 PM
Don't buy into the "great tribulation" occured in the first century stuff!!
Anyone can die for their faith such as in the first century, but it will be at a certain time when they die for their faith when a star falls from the sky, the sea and rivers turn to blood, 1/3 of mankind is killed, war is rampant on the earth, water is turned to poison, men are scorched with heat, sun and moon will not give light, etc. etc. The first century martyrs experienced none of this. And passages in Matt. 24 and all throughout revelation describe tribulation (judgment) as if it is not written as though believers would be the only ones experiencing it, in fact it is judgment for sin, the unrepentant, and wicked of the world. It is what is called the "day of the LORD".
There was a word of the LORD that came to Joel that would have immediate impact for Judah and future impact for Judah and the entire world. The theme of the book is the “Day of the LORD”. It is a reference to God's righteous judgment upon His people and those who are opposed to Him. The specific term, “Day of the LORD” is mentioned five times in Joel, but references to that period are referred to other times by the prophet.
The day of the LORD is not just a time of doom, but of great celebration for the people of God, and those who repent during “the day of the LORD” itself. “The LORD will answer and say to His people, Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil, and you will be satisfied by them; I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.” God will open the minds of Israel, and they will know their Messiah. In that day God “will pour out His Spirit,” a fulfillment yet to be completed. There shall be deliverance in Jerusalem among the remnant whom the LORD calls. Zechariah 12:10 says, “I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication;” For the called of God this time will be a time of great intimacy with the Lord.
The “day of the LORD” is not unique to the prophecy of Joel. The term is mentioned nineteen explicit times in the Old Testament. It is also referred to in Obadiah, Amos, Isaiah, Zephaniah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Malachi. There are also four explicit mentions of the term in the New Testament in Acts, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, and II Peter.
The time of the “day of the LORD” apparently has a time frame spanning from the rapture of the church(or beginning of the tribulation, depending upon your belief) until the final judgment of Satan at the end of the millennium, though one should not be dogmatic about this. Nevertheless, judgment will fall preceding the millennium and at the end of the millennium. The tribulation period will fall before the millennium and after the millennium Satan will be taken from the bottomless pit and thrown into the lake of fire.
Six times it is referred to as the “day of doom” and four times the “day of vengeance”. The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty.” This time for the unrepentant and unbelieving will be a time of terrifying judgments from God for the overwhelming sinfulness of the world.
When Paul says, “the Lord so comes as a thief in the night” he is not referring to the rapture of the church, but to Christ coming in judgment. Jesus says to watch, and we are always to watch for him in every way. Watch and see where He is working, watch for Him to move in your life, watch for His coming for His church, watch for opportunities for Him to use you, watch and listen for His voice, watch over one another, watch unto prayer, watch and repent, watch for His judgments, and continue to watch in all things. Christ says to the church in Sardis that, “if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 05:32 PM
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


markdrums, what does Matthew 24:3 mean to you, esp the part I have in bold letters? Doesn't this establish the context in which Jesus starts speaking in? How many ends of the world are there? And if the world already ended some 2000 yrs ago, where's Jesus? Why isn't He already here reigning forever and ever on this planet?

Good question. :)

Here's what I think needs to be pointed out.
Mat 21:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The CONTEXTof Matthew 24 is about the temple & the coming destruction... and the end of the AGE (Of temple sacrifices)
Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the "signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.

Jesus then proceeds to tell them THEY will hear of wars & rumors of wars. THEY would see the abomination of desolation, THEY would be delivered up, & killed & hated for Jesus' name.

He said THEIR generation would not pass until these things be fulfilled.... which DID occur when Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

That's the actual context of Matthew 24.
;)

Hope that helps.

IBWatching
Oct 15th 2008, 05:39 PM
Good question. :)

Here's what I think needs to be pointed out.
Mat 21:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The CONTEXTof Matthew 24 is about the temple & the coming destruction... and the end of the AGE (Of temple sacrifices)
Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the "signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.

Jesus then proceeds to tell them THEY will hear of wars & rumors of wars. THEY would see the abomination of desolation, THEY would be delivered up, & killed & hated for Jesus' name.

He said THEIR generation would not pass until these things be fulfilled.... which DID occur when Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

That's the actual context of Matthew 24.
;)

Hope that helps.


Matthew 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory...34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

In context, that "generation" would also see the Coming of Jesus Christ. That did not happen in 70AD.

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 05:50 PM
I regret to admit... you have shaken a few of my foundations.....I must study this. Your point seems cogent...which makes it all the more difficult for me!:P


Believe me! I completely understand what you're saying!!
I had soooo many questions about what I grew up being taught, that just didn't quite fit together.....

I had to make myself look at everything with a fresh, unbiased approach & study PERSONALLY.... & accept the fact that I might end up with a different understanding than my childhood foundations were built on.
Mainly because I wanted to know what the Bible REALLY says, instead of relying on my pastor to "tell me".

Yeah, I had to change my views on a few things.
However; the ESSENTIAL Christian doctrine was the same. I at least had THAT in place thankfully! :) Understanding who GOD is, & his nature. Knowing Who Jesus is, & WHY he came to be my substitue sacrifice....

But the main thing I changed my outlook on is the eschatological view.
It didn't make sense to "Literally" take some parts of scripture, & ignore the "LITERAL" meanings of words like SOON, AT HAND, and NEAR.

But my advice would be this; pray for wisdom, understanding, & guidance about the Word. Then read it. Read it as if it's the first time you've seen it. Don't let previous opinions / beliefs interfere.

Just keep on reading!
The thing is, our eschatological views don't dictate whether we're saved or not. (Which is a good thing! LOL!) But, improper interpretation can cause us to miss a lot of other points in the Bible.
So, yes, it can go beyond our "end times" views if we misinterpret scripture.

All in all, I have to admit I've gotten so much more out of the Bible than I ever did. It's become that book that just amazes me every time I read it!!! I always heard people talk about it as being incredible. But couldn't quite understand what they really meant.

NOW, I know it's more than just stories of "old people" on a big boat, or in a garden, or with long hair & super strength, & being eaten by a whale & so on.... I really "get it" now.

I understand the "types & shadows" of people & events, that paralelled future, ultimate fulfilments through Jesus.

WOW!

Anyway, feel free to message me anytime! I don't know everything.... but I'll help you out with whatever I can. LOL!
;)

God Bless you my friend!!

-Mark

divaD
Oct 15th 2008, 06:58 PM
Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the
"signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.



Personally, I feel you're misenterpreting what 'generation' means here. You seemed to have the definition confined to as in during that time only. If one looks back into Matt ch 23, one can see how Jesus is defining 'generation' in Matt 24.


Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation



Notice very carefully verse 36. This generation that Jesus is talking about here and in Matt 24 doesn't simply fade into non existence 2000 yrs ago. This is the generation that will not pass unto all things in Matt 24 are fullfilled. There is no way everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled. This generation of evil doers started as far back as Abel. The generation that Jesus is speaking of is the generation of evil doers that have killed all of God's chosen vessels since the beginning of time and who continue to do so up until the end of time. This is how I feel generation is being defined here, and not as a certain period of time, such as 70 yrs, or whatever a generation consists of.

Verse 33 pretty much describes what kind of generation they are. They're a generation of vipers. This generation would have to go farther back into the past, and farther into the future, than just during that time only. Basically we're seeing a lineage here of evil doers. IOW, a generation of them.

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 08:23 PM
Personally, I feel you're misenterpreting what 'generation' means here. You seemed to have the definition confined to as in during that time only. If one looks back into Matt ch 23, one can see how Jesus is defining 'generation' in Matt 24.


Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation



Notice very carefully verse 36. This generation that Jesus is talking about here and in Matt 24 doesn't simply fade into non existence 2000 yrs ago. This is the generation that will not pass unto all things in Matt 24 are fullfilled. There is no way everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled. This generation of evil doers started as far back as Abel. The generation that Jesus is speaking of is the generation of evil doers that have killed all of God's chosen vessels since the beginning of time and who continue to do so up until the end of time. This is how I feel generation is being defined here, and not as a certain period of time, such as 70 yrs, or whatever a generation consists of.

Verse 33 pretty much describes what kind of generation they are. They're a generation of vipers. This generation would have to go farther back into the past, and farther into the future, than just during that time only. Basically we're seeing a lineage here of evil doers. IOW, a generation of them.


I think it would have been confusing to the people Jesus was speaking to if he meant a future generation, rather than THEIR OWN PERSONAL generation.

He explicitly used the pronoun YOU when talking to them. They would have understood this as such.

The apsotles also would have found it confusing if Jesus had a far-future generation in mind, after telling them dozens of times, YOU... & THIS generation.

Also to keep in consideration, the context in Matthew 23. Jesus is speaking TO the scribes & Pharisees, saying "Woe unto YOU...."

The things that Jesus said would take place in THEIR lifetime / genration WERE FULFILLED... just as he said they would be.

Yes, the same types of people have lived before their generation & still do to this day. But the prophecies were directed TO them & that's who Jesus was speaking directly to.

Everything from Mat 24:1 - 24:34 HAVE been fulfilled. If you notice, Jesus does change the perspective in verse 35; And in verse 36, he describes "the last day... & his second coming".... He makes a transition in context.....
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

This event, the "second coming", is still yet to be fulfilled.
That hasn't happend yet. I agree with that.

But not EVERYTHING in Matthew 23 & 24 is about the second coming & last day.

Know what I mean?

divaD
Oct 15th 2008, 09:00 PM
I think it would have been confusing to the people Jesus was speaking to if he meant a future generation, rather than THEIR OWN PERSONAL generation.

He explicitly used the pronoun YOU when talking to them. They would have understood this as such.

The apsotles also would have found it confusing if Jesus had a far-future generation in mind, after telling them dozens of times, YOU... & THIS generation.

Also to keep in consideration, the context in Matthew 23. Jesus is speaking TO the scribes & Pharisees, saying "Woe unto YOU...."

The things that Jesus said would take place in THEIR lifetime / genration WERE FULFILLED... just as he said they would be.

Yes, the same types of people have lived before their generation & still do to this day. But the prophecies were directed TO them & that's who Jesus was speaking directly to.

Everything from Mat 24:1 - 24:34 HAVE been fulfilled. If you notice, Jesus does change the perspective in verse 35; And in verse 36, he describes "the last day... & his second coming".... He makes a transition in context.....
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

This event, the "second coming", is still yet to be fulfilled.
That hasn't happend yet. I agree with that.

But not EVERYTHING in Matthew 23 & 24 is about the second coming & last day.

Know what I mean?



Hi markdrums. I've chatted with you before, and the truth is, I truly love chatting with you, whether we can agree with one another or not.:) You claim that everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled up to verse 35, and at verse 35 Jesus switches perspective. So since He switched perspectives at that point, we should be able to claim that we found the beginning of another passage, with the context being put forth in verse 35. So, we should be able to read verse 35 onwards, and we should know what Jesuse is referring to, even without the preceeding verses in Matt 24.



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 *And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Let's take a look at verse 37 first. We just learned in this NEW passage that 'but as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

The interesting thing about this, it also talks about the coming of the Son of man in the preceeding verses, except that was from a different perspective, since Jesus supposedly changed perspectives at verse 35.



Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Honestly, I don't know how you can claim that Jesus changes perspective at verse 35, when the text clearly demonstrates that Jesus hasn't changed perspective at all.

markdrums
Oct 15th 2008, 09:56 PM
Hi markdrums. I've chatted with you before, and the truth is, I truly love chatting with you, whether we can agree with one another or not.:) You claim that everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled up to verse 35, and at verse 35 Jesus switches perspective. So since He switched perspectives at that point, we should be able to claim that we found the beginning of another passage, with the context being put forth in verse 35. So, we should be able to read verse 35 onwards, and we should know what Jesuse is referring to, even without the preceeding verses in Matt 24.



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 *And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Let's take a look at verse 37 first. We just learned in this NEW passage that 'but as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

The interesting thing about this, it also talks about the coming of the Son of man in the preceeding verses, except that was from a different perspective, since Jesus supposedly changed perspectives at verse 35.



Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Honestly, I don't know how you can claim that Jesus changes perspective at verse 35, when the text clearly demonstrates that Jesus hasn't changed perspective at all.

Hey divaD!
I'm one of those people who believe that iron sharpens iron! So I'm ALWAYS willing to talk about different views & perspectives!
:)

Anyway, I DO see your point in Mat 24:27. My best explanation on that would be this:
Jesus mentions in several instances that "they will see the Son of Man, coming in clouds having great power & glory."

The context here is different than "returning / second coming".
If we refer back to the OLD TESTAMENT, & read the passages that use this same phrase, "coming on clouds"... we learn that it's a Judgment metaphor. The people who convicted Jesus, & ordered his crucifixion were told by Jesus himself that THEY would "see the Son of Man coming on clouds.... "
Those who heard this, understood immediately what Jesus meant. They knew he was speaking of impending Judgment on them, & Jesus' vindication as the TRUE KING.

Check one of the online Bibles & search the word "cloud" or "clouds". See how it's used & what the context is referring to. You'll find it deals with Judgment.
;)
(It should also bring up a mental image of the first time that clouds were ever seen..... Right before the FLOOD.)

So, in essence, The "Coming of the Son of Man" in Matthew 24:27 is also speaking of Judgment upon Jerusalem, & the destruction of the temple.

Which is why I would say that everything in Mat. 24:1-34 have been fulfilled.

:)

Marc B
Oct 16th 2008, 03:20 AM
First things first: what led me to start this thread.

Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of


After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."


depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

(Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

Christ's chronology
Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

Matthew 10
In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

Matthew 13
In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

So...

Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
Enemy = the devil (Satan)

Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

"Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:


False christs, wars and rumors of wars
Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
Then persecution of the followers of Christ
Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
The gospel preached to all
Then the end will come
Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

Paul's chronology
Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

John's chronology
John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

Summary
So let's take all of the above together:

According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".

I agree with everything you said. I'm also a post tribber. One question though, how do you reconcile Rev 11:18 with Rev 20:4-5? On one hand the dead are judged immediately after the second advent and on the other not until the 1000 years are up. Could it be that 11:18 simply refers to part of His plan and 20:4-5 describe the actual timeline of this event? Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself except when we read things into it, I think this would be a reasonable conclusion since this would reconcile the 2 verses.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 03:26 AM
I agree with everything you said. I'm also a post tribber. One question though, how do you reconcile Rev 11:18 with Rev 20:4-5? On one hand the dead are judged immediately after the second advent and on the other not until the 1000 years are up. Could it be that 11:18 simply refers to part of His plan and 20:4-5 describe the actual timeline of this event? Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself except when we read things into it, I think this would be a reasonable conclusion since this would reconcile the 2 verses.

Excellent question.... I am waiting for his rather erudite answer as He certainly has a way of explaining things that helps the average reader.... I think I'll have to report him to Apothenein Kerdos... he might like to know that there is at least one other cogent writer he can discourse with.

Kudos to you both for these posts!

yoSAMite
Oct 16th 2008, 06:02 PM
I still have to wonder, has anyone even taken the time to check the last part of this verse in the Greek?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 until he be taken out of the way

taken----ginomai
verb - Root Word (Etymology)
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

out---ek
Part of Speech
preposition - Root Word (Etymology)

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative

Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) out of, from, by, away from

way--mesos
Part of Speech
adjective - Root Word (Etymology)
from G3326

Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) middle
2) the midst
3) in the midst of, amongst

I still want to know how anyone can claim that anyone is being taken out of the way? That's not what the Greek is saying.

Ask yourself these questions, then see if the text answers them?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Know what that withholdeth? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

Who might be revealed in his time? That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

only he who now letteth.

Restrains what? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

until he be taken out of the way.

Until who arises, comes on stage out of the midst? The son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This answers the entire passage.
You'll have to excuse me, but I'm having a bit of trouble with you're interpretation here. Would you please tell me what you think it says.

I think 2 Thes 2:3-7 says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the apostasy and the indwelt Holy Spirit is removed.

divaD
Oct 16th 2008, 09:57 PM
You'll have to excuse me, but I'm having a bit of trouble with you're interpretation here. Would you please tell me what you think it says.

I think 2 Thes 2:3-7 says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the apostasy and the indwelt Holy Spirit is removed.



"until he be taken out of the way."


It's pretty simple actually. I'm simply reading what the text is saying. I've already shown that the English rendered words 'taken' and 'way' do not support the Greek words used in this verse. No one is being taken out of the way, but someone will become to be out of the midst. This would have to be the son of perdition.

In verse 1 and 2 we learned that the day of Christ was not at hand. Why? Because some things have to happen first. There would come a falling away first, and that man of sin be would be revealed, the son of perdition, before Christ can return. Verse 6 tells us that the revealing of the son of perdition is restraining the coming of Christ.

Verse 7 tells us that the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and that it won't be fully revealed, because the revealing of the son of perdition is restraining the coming of the Lord(it is the coming of the Lord that reveals the son of perdition, but the son of perdition can't be revealed until he first arises out of the midst and fullfills verse 4) After this occurs, then can verse 8 start to be fullfilled..the coming of Christ to destroy that Wicked.


You say that the Holy Spirit is being taken out of the way. Where do you see that in this text? There's no mention of the Holy Spirit anywhere in the text. And besides, like I've already pointed out, 'taken' doesn't match up to the Greek. Do a word search on the English rendered word 'taken'. It is usually the Greek word 'lambano' that is used, which many times means the same thing as taken, but when 'taken' was used in this passage in 2 Thessalonians 2, the Greek word for it is 'ginomai' and not 'lambano'.

Do a search on Strong's G1096 and notice how that word is rendered throughout the NT. It appears to never mean taken, as in how we define taken in the English language.

divaD
Oct 16th 2008, 10:38 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing [b]himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


I'd like to add this to previous thoughts. Take notice of what I highlighted in bold within this passage. This passage
pretty much contains two actors so to speak. And that would be Christ, and the son of perdition.

In verse 1 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to Christ.

In verse 4 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 6 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to belong to the son of perdition, because we learned in verse 3 who was supposed to be revealed..and that would be the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 7 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to also belong to the son of perdition, because in verse 6 we learned that it was the revealing of the son of perdition that was restraining the coming of Christ. So how can the son of perdition be revealed? He must first arise out of the midst(remember iniquity was already at work and that the son of perdition hasn't become fully realized as of yet), then fullfill verse 4. Once he does that, then he will be revealed at Christ's coming, which would be verse 8.

And finally verse 8. It's once again plainly obvious that the pronouns in verse 8 belong to Christ.

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 10:54 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[b]8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 1 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to Christ.

In verse 4 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 6 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to belong to the son of perdition, because we learned in verse 3 who was supposed to be revealed..and that would be the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 7 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to also belong to the son of perdition, because in verse 6 we learned that it was the revealing of the son of perdition that was restraining the coming of Christ. So how can the son of perdition be revealed? He must first arise out of the midst(remember iniquity was already at work and that the son of perdition hasn't become fully realized as of yet), then fullfill verse 4. Once he does that, then he will be revealed at Christ's coming, which would be verse 8.

And finally verse 8. It's once again plainly obvious that the pronouns in verse 8 belong to Christ.

I'm following you, and I agree.

My questions, then:

1. Who exactly is the man of sin/son of perdition? A flesh-and-blood person? Or something else entirely?
2. How exactly is that ... son ... entity ... restraining Christ from returning?
3. How is the son of perdition then taken out of the way?
4. Who is the "wicked" who is going to be revealed, and then destroyed?

Remembering that Jesus does nothing apart from His Church ... and that these are spiritual realities ...

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 16th 2008, 10:56 PM
Why I believe the rapture is pre-trib but not bent on it being so:

The NT writers constantly are telling us to comfort each other with the reminder, but reminder of what? The Tribulation is the worst time on earth, I don't see that as very comforting.

Rev. 3:10

God's children do not experience his wrath. (eg. lot, noah, Enoch)

We are told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape those times.

This is my first serious post in this thread. I welcome any and all other interpretations of these things.

Marc B
Oct 17th 2008, 01:17 AM
Yes do pray that you are accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Not everyone will be a martyr but many will be. That says nothing about a "rapture". A word that isn't even biblical but is insisted upon as being such. The Bible says time and time again about the martyrdom of saints in the Olivet prophecy [Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 read the entire chapters to fully understand] spoken by Jesus Christ himself yet the rapture folks prefer to believe the soothing things like escaping the earth before the bad times come by misinterpreting a few verses like Rev 3:10, or the "meeting the Lord in the air" verses which happens AFTER the tribulation when He returns to earth, to prop up a theory that has no foundation in scripture. The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said? :yes:

I can't stress this enough, go to your room and close the door like Jesus instructs us to in Matthew 6:5-14 and pray for understanding and read the 3 full chapters I pointed to. There should be no doubt about pretrib posttrib whatever after that. :thumbsup:

quiet dove
Oct 17th 2008, 01:43 AM
Yes do pray that you are accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Not everyone will be a martyr but many will be. That says nothing about a "rapture". A word that isn't even biblical but is insisted upon as being such. The Bible says time and time again about the martyrdom of saints in the Olivet prophecy [Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 read the entire chapters to fully understand] spoken by Jesus Christ himself yet the rapture folks prefer to believe the soothing things like escaping the earth before the bad times come by misinterpreting a few verses like Rev 3:10, or the "meeting the Lord in the air" verses which happens AFTER the tribulation when He returns to earth, to prop up a theory that has no foundation in scripture. The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said? :yes:

I can't stress this enough, go to your room and close the door like Jesus instructs us to in Matthew 6:5-14 and pray for understanding and read the 3 full chapters I pointed to. There should be no doubt about pretrib posttrib whatever after that. :thumbsup:

And where do the rapture people say we will see Jesus?

bennie
Oct 17th 2008, 01:52 AM
Why I believe the rapture is pre-trib but not bent on it being so:

The NT writers constantly are telling us to comfort each other with the reminder, but reminder of what? The Tribulation is the worst time on earth, I don't see that as very comforting.

Rev. 3:10

God's children do not experience his wrath. (eg. lot, noah, Enoch)

We are told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape those times.

This is my first serious post in this thread. I welcome any and all other interpretations of these things.

hi FA

Gods people have and will endure His wrath.

Ezekiel14:21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!

Revelation6:8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

In ancient Israel God looked after the richous(spelling??) He will do so again my friend. This time of severe testing that is coming will purify us all before Jesus comes in the clouds to get is and take us to his fathers house.

john14:1-2(insertions mine) 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-26659a)]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there(not on earth in other words) to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go (there)and prepare a place for you, I will come back (Here)and take you(there) to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

Trust God my friend

bennie

Marc B
Oct 17th 2008, 01:55 AM
And where do the rapture people say we will see Jesus?

In the air before the tribulation.

quiet dove
Oct 17th 2008, 02:39 AM
In the air before the tribulation.

Exactly, it is not taught, even by pre trib, that Jesus will walk the earth, and be here or be there, as you implied they teach.


The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said?

Jude
Oct 17th 2008, 04:59 AM
Torch of Truth International

Rekindling the flame of truth in America and the World.

This expose' is for those who are seeking truth.. Beloved, you did not come to this site by accident but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. If you are certain that its by accident, leave now. But on the other hand, if the Holy Spirit is leading you..you will find this article to be surprising, shocking and soul stirring. The rapture theory is not Biblical and was founded as an Anti-Reformation tool of the Catholic Church. Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Huss, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger and others had identified the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon in Revelation and the Popes as the Anti-Christ. Millions of sincere Catholics were leaving the mother church and joining the reformation movement.. The church set out to neutralize and destroy the protestant movement.. What they could not do through brute force and the military inquisitions they did through political espionage, spiritual intrigue, and using mind control techniques by secret societies.

Why were sincere Catholics, priests and monks leaving the Catholic Church.?

People were leaving because of corruptions in the church. If one look at the Babylonian sun worship, and the present Roman Catholic Mass there are many similarities. Baal worship seem to have taken over the Catholic Church. The icon of the virgin mother and child with halos (representing the sun), Mary as the queen of heaven, (Isis - queen of heaven) confessionals, wafer worship, transubstantiation, and priests as exclusive mediators of God were all derived from the Satanic Babylonian religion. Roman Catholicism became a mixture of witchcraft, Judaism, paganism, and perverted Christianity. When this corruptions was exposed by the reformers, Rome was outraged, and staged Holy Inquisitions, design to rid the world of heretics. The Inquisition included torturing and murdering people who didn't not agree with the Catholic views. Ten of thousands of people were killed and some historians even put the numbers in the millions. Later, in response to the Vatican's oppressive dogma, Martin Luther, a former Augustinian monk, nailed his 95 theses to the wall of a church in Germany, heralding Protestantism. . The Vatican was shaken as Protestantism spreads rapidly through Europe. In order to stamp out the spiritual rebellion, Pope Paul III ordered Ignatius de Loyola to found the Order of Jesuits, which would act as the intelligentsia and secret militia of the Vatican. Loyola had already founded the occult Illuminati, which he then placed under the umbrella of the Vatican ” Ignatius a Merovingian Jew from Loyola Spain was a member of the Alumbrados before he founded the Illuminati and the Jesuits. The Merovingian Jews claim to be decedents of Jesus and Mary of Magdalene. Thus you have books and movies like DaVinci Code, Prieure de Sion, Passover Plot, Holy Blood Holy Grail, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, being produced and circulated by Hollywood Kabbalist movie studios and publishing houses controlled by the Illuminati. These books are blasphemas teachings design to nullify the true Gospel of Jesus. Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

It was when Pope Paul III convened the Council of Trent that the church formally addressed the protestant reformation with edicts, dogmas and doctrines. A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine. The Jesuits infiltrated the protestant movement, developed protestant theology, and purposely mis interpreted scriptures relating to Bible prophecy. They also controlled the educational system and bribe and blackmailed governments of Europe and America to promote their agenda. Two other groups that were instrumental the origin and development of the rapture theory were the Knights Templars (Masons) and the Knights of Malta (Knights of Columbus).


Jude



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

Dragonfighter1
Oct 17th 2008, 01:00 PM
Torch of Truth International

Rekindling the flame of truth in America and the World.

This expose' is for those who are seeking truth.. Beloved, you did not come to this site by accident but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. If you are certain that its by accident, leave now. But on the other hand, if the Holy Spirit is leading you..you will find this article to be surprising, shocking and soul stirring. The rapture theory is not Biblical and was founded as an Anti-Reformation tool of the Catholic Church. Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Huss, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger and others had identified the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon in Revelation and the Popes as the Anti-Christ. Millions of sincere Catholics were leaving the mother church and joining the reformation movement.. The church set out to neutralize and destroy the protestant movement.. What they could not do through brute force and the military inquisitions they did through political espionage, spiritual intrigue, and using mind control techniques by secret societies.

Why were sincere Catholics, priests and monks leaving the Catholic Church.?

People were leaving because of corruptions in the church. If one look at the Babylonian sun worship, and the present Roman Catholic Mass there are many similarities. Baal worship seem to have taken over the Catholic Church. The icon of the virgin mother and child with halos (representing the sun), Mary as the queen of heaven, (Isis - queen of heaven) confessionals, wafer worship, transubstantiation, and priests as exclusive mediators of God were all derived from the Satanic Babylonian religion. Roman Catholicism became a mixture of witchcraft, Judaism, paganism, and perverted Christianity. When this corruptions was exposed by the reformers, Rome was outraged, and staged Holy Inquisitions, design to rid the world of heretics. The Inquisition included torturing and murdering people who didn't not agree with the Catholic views. Ten of thousands of people were killed and some historians even put the numbers in the millions. Later, in response to the Vatican's oppressive dogma, Martin Luther, a former Augustinian monk, nailed his 95 theses to the wall of a church in Germany, heralding Protestantism. . The Vatican was shaken as Protestantism spreads rapidly through Europe. In order to stamp out the spiritual rebellion, Pope Paul III ordered Ignatius de Loyola to found the Order of Jesuits, which would act as the intelligentsia and secret militia of the Vatican. Loyola had already founded the occult Illuminati, which he then placed under the umbrella of the Vatican ” Ignatius a Merovingian Jew from Loyola Spain was a member of the Alumbrados before he founded the Illuminati and the Jesuits. The Merovingian Jews claim to be decedents of Jesus and Mary of Magdalene. Thus you have books and movies like DaVinci Code, Prieure de Sion, Passover Plot, Holy Blood Holy Grail, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, being produced and circulated by Hollywood Kabbalist movie studios and publishing houses controlled by the Illuminati. These books are blasphemas teachings design to nullify the true Gospel of Jesus. Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

It was when Pope Paul III convened the Council of Trent that the church formally addressed the protestant reformation with edicts, dogmas and doctrines. A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine. The Jesuits infiltrated the protestant movement, developed protestant theology, and purposely mis interpreted scriptures relating to Bible prophecy. They also controlled the educational system and bribe and blackmailed governments of Europe and America to promote their agenda. Two other groups that were instrumental the origin and development of the rapture theory were the Knights Templars (Masons) and the Knights of Malta (Knights of Columbus).
Judehttp://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

You said.......Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

WHO? DO tell us ? I'd like to know.

Marc B
Oct 17th 2008, 01:13 PM
Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 17th 2008, 01:33 PM
Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.
Marc, you deserve the Double can of worms award (also known as the moonglow award after its first recipient) for that question.

Lets see if I'm right.. somewhere in the next few answers you are going to end up with this person...

Irish, charismatic, catholic, teenager, having visions from God about the pre trib rapture.... because to some degree its true- though I am sure the story has been exaggerated.

Any way.. here is your MOONGLOW award

http://bibleforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4860&stc=1&d=1224250281

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 03:01 PM
The believers in Thessalonika were not exactly looking forward to the Day of the Lord. The Epistle to the Thessalonians is the earliest known New Testament writing, even before the Gospels had been written.

So the Scriptures these believers used to study, were Old Testament Scriptures. Anything else had been relayed to them orally up to that point.

Remember, the order of NT Scriptures is not chronological.

The Thessalonians were worried about the Day of the Lord, because if you look at the OT descriptions, it is indeed a great day of wrath when God executes vengeance upon His enemies.

Paul had to step in and set the record straight, and let them know that for those who are in Christ, it is not a wrathful day.

In fact, the trumpet will sound, Jesus will return and gather those who are His, unto Himself. THEN God's wrath will be poured out and the earth purified and God's enemies dealt with.

For God's enemies, it is a day of wrath. For those in Christ, it is a day of salvation, resurrection, and deliverance, and something we ought to look forward to, because from that day on out, we will forever be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words. :hug:

quiet dove
Oct 17th 2008, 06:44 PM
Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.

Not entirely accurate, and a tad misleading, IMHO


A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine.


-Ribera: 1580, wrote a mixture of amil, historicism and futurist. He taught that the seals were opening in the time of Christ but that some of Revelation was still future.

John146
Oct 17th 2008, 07:14 PM
The believers in Thessalonika were not exactly looking forward to the Day of the Lord. The Epistle to the Thessalonians is the earliest known New Testament writing, even before the Gospels had been written.

So the Scriptures these believers used to study, were Old Testament Scriptures. Anything else had been relayed to them orally up to that point.

Remember, the order of NT Scriptures is not chronological.

The Thessalonians were worried about the Day of the Lord, because if you look at the OT descriptions, it is indeed a great day of wrath when God executes vengeance upon His enemies.

Paul had to step in and set the record straight, and let them know that for those who are in Christ, it is not a wrathful day.

In fact, the trumpet will sound, Jesus will return and gather those who are His, unto Himself. THEN God's wrath will be poured out and the earth purified and God's enemies dealt with.

For God's enemies, it is a day of wrath. For those in Christ, it is a day of salvation, resurrection, and deliverance, and something we ought to look forward to, because from that day on out, we will forever be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words. :hug:Amen. Good post. That is exactly what is taught in 1 Thes 4:13-5:6.

Marc B
Oct 18th 2008, 04:26 AM
Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-18.htm)

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.

Richard H
Oct 18th 2008, 12:52 PM
Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-18.htm)

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.
So...
Presecution = wrath of satan?
Bowls/vials of wrath = God's wrath on the wicked?
Saints here for persecution - not here for bowls/vials?

I love your last sentence, Marc.
'The best explanation of what we will be doing during the millennium I’ve seen.

Marc B
Oct 18th 2008, 02:50 PM
That's pretty much it in a nutshell Richard. :)

yoSAMite
Oct 18th 2008, 07:08 PM
Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-18.htm)

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.
For those of us who believe in the pre-trib rapture, our argument would be that this verse says nothing of Jesus returning to earth. It says we will meet Jesus in the clouds and be with Him forever. No more no less.

scourge39
Oct 18th 2008, 08:27 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

Where does it say that only believers will hear the trumpet (or the archangel's voice)?

Where does it mention the instantaneous departure of believers from the earth?

The real clincher is the meaning of the Greek word 'parousia,' erroneously rendered 'coming' in many English translations. Including the ESV, which is most tragic. It was Dispensationalist pre-tribber W.E. Vine who introduced that meaning in his concordance and Strong follows him. Parousia never carried that meaning. Before Vine, every Greek linguist understood it to mean a visible and physical 'appearing' or 'appearance' (it's where the English word 'apparition' comes from). It's a royal term that refers to a king's physical return to his subjects after having been away on a journey. Unfortunately, the pre-trib rapture view (like Dispensationalism itself) is 'folk theology' based on pre-understanding and assumptions imposed on Scripture by readers, not the actual words of Scripture itself. Meaning that those approaching Scripture with the initial assumption that they’ll be ‘raptured’ off the earth likely will “see” it in Scripture, even though there aren’t enough words in the text itself to paint the picture they would like. In fact, I'd say that the entire Dispensational system is based heavily on eisegesis rather than exegesis, and I used to live or die by it. It doesn't require knowledge of Biblical languages to understand, which is why anyone can become an 'expert' in it. In fact, Biblical linguistics obliterates the notion of a pre-trib rapture, which is why so many don't use or trust Biblical languages either. They're comfortable with their current views and scared to be shown anything else that challenges them. Think of it as Linus' security blanket. In a sense, it’s 'inbred'. Those who ascribe to it only consult Dispensational authors recommended by their pastors, like John Walvoord, John MacArthur, John Hagee, et al, thus reinforcing their basic assumptions instead of exposing them to alternate, more viable interpretations. That's why their pastors purposely don't consult any of the scholarly Evangelical/ conservative commentary sets like the New International Commentary or the Word Biblical Commentary. Those sets don't tout the Dispensational 'party line.' Instead, they’d much rather consult books written by people affiliated with Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary, and other Dispensational institutions. None of the current conservative exegetical commentaries on 1 & 2 Thessalonians espouses the pre-trib view. They do, however, dismantle it quite convincingly.

Both of the following books demonstrate an accurate understanding of the word ‘parousia.’

Parousia: The New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming by J. Stuart Russell

The Parousia: A Critical Study Of The Scripture Doctrines Of Christ's Second Coming, His Reign As King, The Resurrection Of The Dead And The General Judgment by Israel P. Warren

If someone were placed on a deserted island with simply an English Bible translation without any previous knowledge of any of the various tribulational/rapture views and told to study the NT for one year by themselves before returning to civilization, I guarantee that they would not even entertain the notion of a pre-trib rapture by the end of their studies. The details imposed on 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 by pre-tribbers simply aren’t explicitly found anywhere in the text, whether Greek, English or otherwise. Several assumptions must be made beforehand and read into the text as it appears in order to make the pre-trib reading work. The lights finally went on when I translated 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 verbatim from the Greek while in seminary. That’s what it took for me to see that much of what I had previously been taught about the passage was not taking Paul’s words at face value, but instead, imposing an interpretation upon them that was more palatable.

In fact, I’m issuing a friendly challenge to pre-tribbers:

Simply take any English translation and outline the actual words of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as they appear in said translation, without inserting details about it occurring instantaneously, being physically removed from the earth, etc. and then state whether you still come out ‘pre-trib’ and why.

quiet dove
Oct 18th 2008, 08:41 PM
In fact, I’m issuing a friendly challenge to pre-tribbers:

Simply take any English translation and outline the actual words of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as they appear in said translation, without inserting details about it occurring instantaneously, being physically removed from the earth, etc. and then state whether you still come out ‘pre-trib’ and why.

First tell us how the angels sent to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect is the same as the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet. Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?

scourge39
Oct 18th 2008, 09:08 PM
the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet.

Are they being 'taken' and if so, to where? Is that what Paul is describing? He say's we'll 'meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Why does being with the Lord forever have to mean 'going to heaven.' Paul nowhere mentions heaven


Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?

This is a red herring, to some extent. We're specifically dealing with Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 because it's the primary passage used to defend the pre-trib view. However, let's look at a portion of 1 Corinthians 15:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (NIV)

Paul says that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye, not removed from earth in the twinkling of an eye. "We," in verse 51 & 52,refers to the living and the dead. Paul is emphasizing the unity of all believers in Christ, both dead and living. Both groups will receive their bodily glorification at the same time. Paul is using this chapter to say, 'Don't worry, both you and your dead loved ones will receive your reward together, so don't think you'll never see them again." In the context of the whole Chapter, Paul is correcting the notion that there would be no final resurrection at the end of the age, a doctrine that was upsetting the Corinthian Church, whose members were worried that they'd never again see their loved ones who died in Christ.

Richard H
Oct 18th 2008, 10:33 PM
Pre-Trib:

Jesus comes and gets us at beginning of 7yr Trib.
We all go “back” to heaven or just hang around in the air – watching the mayhem.
7 years later – Jesus and us come back to win the “final” battle and establish His Kingdom.
The dead in Christ are raised, when Jesus touches down upon the Earth.
Jesus establishes His reign for 1000 yrs. Man’s 7th millennium - Sabbath rest from the wiles of the devil.
OR

We meet Him in the “air” and stay there in the “air”. (1 Thes 4:17)
Purpose of studying prophecy: to understand that which has no bearing on us, as we will not be here.

Vs.



Post-Trib: (7 Trumps)

At the 7th Trumpet (last Trump), the dead in Christ rise first. (1Thes 4:16)
We who manage to survive to that point, do not taste death, but are made incorruptible. (1 Thes 4:17)
We rise to meet the Lord - “on His way” to the Earth.
The bowls of wrath are poured out. *
Jesus touches down on the Earth (once) to establish His reign for 1000 yrs. Man’s 7th millennium - Sabbath rest from the wiles of the devil.
Purpose of studying prophecy: to understand that which will bear on us, so we will not be unaware.

* The Feast of Trumpets may only take 21 days or so.
Beginning the Feast of Trumpets:
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Lev 23:24

Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. Lev 23:39
The Feast of Trumpets (normally 21 days) ends on a day known as “the Last Great Day”.
This day is known as “the holy day of the unknown day or hour”, because it is all reckoned by the sighting of the New Moon according to the calendar which God gave the Hebrews.
If the moon is not sighted, the day shall wait until the next time (not next month) the Moon is sighted.

Others here are more knowledgeable of these feasts than I am.
Perhaps they can comment.

Richard

Marc B
Oct 18th 2008, 10:34 PM
For those of us who believe in the pre-trib rapture, our argument would be that this verse says nothing of Jesus returning to earth. It says we will meet Jesus in the clouds and be with Him forever. No more no less.

True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4. :)

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 01:16 AM
Are they being 'taken' and if so, to where? Is that what Paul is describing? He say's we'll 'meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Why does being with the Lord forever have to mean 'going to heaven.' Paul nowhere mentions heaven
I didn't mention anything about where wer are taken, it simply says to forever be with the Lord




This is a red herring, to some extent. We're specifically dealing with Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 because it's the primary passage used to defend the pre-trib view.
Saying it is a red herring does not answer my question, the two are either the same event or they are not.



However, let's look at a portion of 1 Corinthians 15:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (NIV)

Paul says that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye, not removed from earth in the twinkling of an eye. "We," in verse 51 & 52,refers to the living and the dead. Paul is emphasizing the unity of all believers in Christ, both dead and living. Both groups will receive their bodily glorification at the same time. Paul is using this chapter to say, 'Don't worry, both you and your dead loved ones will receive your reward together, so don't think you'll never see them again." In the context of the whole Chapter, Paul is correcting the notion that there would be no final resurrection at the end of the age, a doctrine that was upsetting the Corinthian Church, whose members were worried that they'd never again see their loved ones who died in Christ.

So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ. Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.

yoSAMite
Oct 19th 2008, 02:06 AM
True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4. :)
I think Scripture says we'll come back with Him at the second advent riding on white horses, Rev 19:14.

Now that I think of it, I see the post trib rapture this way. You suffer the great tribulation period (God's wrath?), at the end of that time you get transformed into the Spiritual body, dressed in a white robe on the way up to meet Jesus, jump on a white horse, stop at McDonalds for the wedding supper on the way down and watch Jesus do his thing and then reign with Him for 1000 years if you believe in a post second coming millenium.

Marc, please excuse what may seem like a wise guy answer, but it really does sum up what I understand of the post trib view.

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 02:30 AM
True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4. :)


Forgive me for jumping in, but it is far from one verse. It is the harmony of many and the harmony of what those many teach. One verse stuff is what others say, but one verse is far from determining pre trib for pre tribbers.

scourge39
Oct 19th 2008, 03:14 AM
I didn't mention anything about where we are taken, it simply says to forever be with the Lord [quote]

Exactly! It doesn't mention being taken from the earth, but the Greek word apantesis, translated 'meet' in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 specifically refers to an official welcome of a dignitary by his subjects after having returned. The word is found in Matthew 25:1, 25:6; as well as Acts 28:15. Both of it's uses in Matthew 25 are clearly referring to Christ's physical, permanent Second Coming at the end of the age, not to a secret, supersonic rapture:

Matthew 25:1-13:

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

There's nothing in this parable suggesting anything other than a single, visible and final return of Christ.

[quote]Saying it is a red herring does not answer my question, the two are either the same event or they are not.

Oh, they're definitely describing the same event.


So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

All of those events will happen at the same time.


And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ. Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.

In Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks only of those in Christ because that's who he's concerned with. His readers aren't worried about the destiny of the unrighteous.

Revelation 19:11-21 simply describes the Second Coming and final judgment using different imagery than that of Revelation 20:11-15. It compares Christ's to that of a conquering Warrior King, which highlights the royal coronation language used by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 quite nicely. Revelation is written in the form of a Greek play with multiple acts and repeated themes. It uses different imagery to describe the same event, not necessarily two different events.

Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same resurrection as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, only this description includes the resurrection and judgment of the wicked because Revelation discusses the universal/global effects of God's control over history and its final culmination.

Revelation's literary genre is crucial to understanding its interpretation. It's apocalyptic literature, whose primary feature involves using symbolic language as a means to describe literal events and their significance. Those wanting to interpret the imagery used by John in Revelation are completely ignoring its literary genre. It's not historical narrative like the Gospels or Acts. It's difficult to say exactly how much of Revelation will indeed see future fulfillment, other than the final resurrection and Second Coming. Apocalyptic prophecies can have multiple fulfillments, and there's no way of knowing which aspects of it will recur and how. While I believe in a final Antichrist, I don't believe that there will be an image set up to worship during his reign. All of the symbols employed in Revelation are taken right out of the OT. Revelation 13 takes the imagery of Nebuchadnezzar's statue from Daniel 3 simply to describe any ruler or governmental system that demands allegiance from the Church and persecutes it for not complying. The mark refers to the Roman seal placed on official royal decrees. Nero was persecuting the Church when John wrote Revelation and the 'mark' certainly conjures up images of his oppression of the Church in the minds of John's readers. I'm not sold on a mandatory 'computer chip' one day being the 'mark' either. I studied under Greg Beale, the NT scholar who has written the most comprehensive Revelation commentary in print, and even he isn't overly dogmatic, since interpretation of Revelation seems to be vastly different from one generation to the next . Most Christians are completely oblivious to the myriad of interpretrations of Revelation that have been put forth throughout Church history. Looking at all of it is humbling. It's pretty naive for anyone to say 'I know exactly what this symbol represents' or how many of them will have 'future' fulfillment. Dogmatically saying that Chapters 4 through 19 is 'all futurist' completely ignores that John's immediate audience are the seven Churches in Asia Minor who were being persecuted and needed encouragement to persevere. Why write to encourage suffering Christians who aren't going to see any of what's being described in their lifetime? As a former Dispensationalist, I'm familiar with the Revelation commentaries by John MacArthur, Robert L. Thomas, and John F. Walvoord. All of them, at least from my reading, seem to operate off of the unwritten assumption that even John's readers had no idea what he wrote to them, which is really silly. That's just an attempt to force the total fulfillment of Revelation off into the 'distant' rather than the 'near' future. Some of it had to be fulfilled during the lives of those to whom John wrote, or else the entire book would've had no relevance for them. Demanding distant futurism of all of its fulfillment is as nonsensical as telling polio sufferers in the 1800's not to lose heart because Jonas Salk would invent a vaccine for their condition in 1955, long after their deaths. I can just hear John now: Well, you're not gonna see one bit of my visions fulfilled during your lifetime, or even make heads or tails out of them, but here they are for your encouragement.

divaD
Oct 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
First tell us how the angels sent to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect is the same as the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet. Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?




This is a very good and fair question. I don't believe the text says anything about the 4 corners of the earth. Are you sure it doesn't state the 4 winds instead? Unless I'm reading you wrong, you are referring to Matt 24:31 right?


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Take notice of the four winds here. Now read Ezekiel 37:9, and notice what happens with the four winds here. Read all of Ezekiel 37, and you will see that this is the same scene as Matthew 24:31, and it's the same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17




Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 03:49 AM
This is a very good and fair question. I don't believe the text says anything about the 4 corners of the earth. Are you sure it doesn't state the 4 winds instead? Unless I'm reading you wrong, you are referring to Matt 24:31 right?


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Take notice of the four winds here. Now read Ezekiel 37:9, and notice what happens with the four winds here. Read all of Ezekiel 37, and you will see that this is the same scene as Matthew 24:31, and it's the same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17




Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Yea, four winds, from all over the earth, but the same thing. I did word it wrong. But that still does not answer the question I originally ask.

Diggindeeper
Oct 19th 2008, 04:34 AM
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Revelation 14:14-19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah and Lot..."
as soon as the remnant that belonged to God was taken, then immediately--the rest (those left behind!) were all destroyed!

I see a strong similarity between the Parable of the wheat and the tares, and what John saw in Rev. chapter 14.

Notice that Jesus knew not, till the angel came out of the temple and ANNOUNCED to him that the harvest of the earth is ripe. (I recall him saying that even the angels of heaven "know not the day nor the hour." But when they do learn that time is up...they dash out and tell him.)

Notice also who gathers the good harvest! WOW!

Why is so difficult to see that the "good" and the "bad" are gathered at the same time...in the only second coming of Christ Jesus? They are gathered from the four winds of the earth, the four corners of the earth...at the same event--the harvest.

divaD
Oct 19th 2008, 04:55 AM
Yea, four winds, from all over the earth, but the same thing. I did word it wrong. But that still does not answer the question I originally ask.



1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Let's see if Matthew 24 is describing the same exact events.



Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This would be the resurrection before the rapture.




Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This would be the rapture of those remaining after the trib, and after the resurrection.



Notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord


Now notice in Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Now notice in Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other



This is undeniable. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 takes place exactly how Matthew 24 does, and in the same exact order. And since we know from Matthew 24 that this occurs after the trib, then this means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 occurs after the trib also.

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 05:20 AM
This is undeniable. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 takes place exactly how Matthew 24 does, and in the same exact order. And since we know from Matthew 24 that this occurs after the trib, then this means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 occurs after the trib also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So do the angels gather all the elect, that would be after the wicked (one in the field) are taken away, and the dead in Christ rise and the angels gather the elect and all are taken in the clouds together, and this is all at Jesus Second Advent, the same Second Advend that the saints are seen in Rev as coming with Christ?

And just because Matt happens after the trib does not mean Thess does.

Are you post trib or amil, just asking because it saves on communication confusion.

wesand24
Oct 20th 2008, 11:43 PM
Matthew 24:36-44 :
These verses have nothing to do with the rapture as someone stated earlier, but if you look at the context this passage is referring to being taken in judgement. It even gives a comparison of the people in the flood, "..and did not know until the flood came and took them all away." The Son of Man's coming will be similar to those days: "Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left. People will be marrying and given in marriage, just thinking everything is OK. But for you things are different! YOU "watch therefore."

Now, back to the topic. I am not sttled on how i stand as to when the rapture will occurr (pre, post). I definitely believe God has the ability to keep one from His wrath even though one might be going through it. Example: Noah and his family went through the wrath of God while safe on an ark. Meshach, Shadrach, and Abed-nego went through the firy furnace, but remained as if nothing happend. Daniel in the Lions den. I am sure there are more in Scripture, but I don't know them.

divaD
Oct 21st 2008, 12:59 AM
Matthew 24:36-44 :
These verses have nothing to do with the rapture as someone stated earlier, but if you look at the context this passage is
referring to being taken in judgement.




Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Just out of pure curiosity, whom do you think these 2 verses are referring to? Surely this couldn't be talking of dead people waiting for a resurrection. And surely the ungodly wouldn't be looking for the the return of the Lord. These people have to be alive when the Lord returns, and looking for His return. These have to be believers that Jesus cautions to stay fully aware and not to get side tracked, etc. This is what these 2 verses are implying. Take a closer look at Matthew 24 as a whole. Perhaps you're not looking at it close enough?

wesand24
Oct 21st 2008, 01:28 AM
Have you looked at the comparison that Jesus gives just before in the same passage, the ungodly were taken in the flood not the faithful. Yes, "watch therefore" , but you will not be overtaken like them. God's wrath gets them. This is clearly not a reference to the catching away of believers in I Thessalonians. Jesus makes that clear by giving the comparison of the unrepentant that were "taken" in Noah's day.

wesand24
Oct 21st 2008, 02:29 AM
There are about eight different meaning for watch in the Greek. The way we watch now is entirely different then the way saints will be watching at the end of the tribulation when this passage is speaking about. These last few passages in the Olivet Discourse are speaking of attitudes that people will have about Christ Coming. People will be unconcerned, practicing mundane things not taking heed to all the warnings that came about the past few years (all the signs that Christ spoke of in the same chapter.
Look at Matthew 24:48: That evil servant says in his heart, "My Master is delaying his coming" - "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
As for those in Christ "But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief... Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ..For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:4,6,9

divaD
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:51 AM
Are you post trib or amil, just asking because it saves on communication confusion.



Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it. But I can say for certain that I'm post-trib, even tho the majority of my life I had always been pre-trib. What changed my mind? Reading Scripture, then realizing that a pre-trib rapture was not taught in the Bible afterall. I came to this conclusion on my own. No one influenced me to change my mind. The Scriptures themselves influenced my decision to change my view.

Diggindeeper
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:56 AM
Mine too, divaD. Mine too! I had been taught pretrib since childhood, but it was the scriptures and only the scriptures that convinced me.

quiet dove
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:00 PM
Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it. But I can say for certain that I'm post-trib, even tho the majority of my life I had always been pre-trib. What changed my mind? Reading Scripture, then realizing that a pre-trib rapture was not taught in the Bible afterall. I came to this conclusion on my own. No one influenced me to change my mind. The Scriptures themselves influenced my decision to change my view.

I appreciate your answer, and as much of a surprise as it may be, in reading scripture I find pre trib much supported, and have not been pursuade by the arguments to change my mind.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:59 PM
So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ. But 1 Thessalonians does not only speak of those in Christ.

Paul is not finished with his teaching about the coming of the Lord in 1 Thess 4:18. He continues:

1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This goes along with what he says in 2 Thessalonians.

2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul also taught that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him happens at the same time here:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul taught in these passages that the coming of Christ, the gathering of believers in Christ and the destruction of those who are not in Christ all occur on the same day.


Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.Is that not the same as what is taught here:

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:06 PM
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Revelation 14:14-19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah and Lot..."
as soon as the remnant that belonged to God was taken, then immediately--the rest (those left behind!) were all destroyed!

I see a strong similarity between the Parable of the wheat and the tares, and what John saw in Rev. chapter 14.

Notice that Jesus knew not, till the angel came out of the temple and ANNOUNCED to him that the harvest of the earth is ripe. (I recall him saying that even the angels of heaven "know not the day nor the hour." But when they do learn that time is up...they dash out and tell him.)

Notice also who gathers the good harvest! WOW!

Why is so difficult to see that the "good" and the "bad" are gathered at the same time...in the only second coming of Christ Jesus? They are gathered from the four winds of the earth, the four corners of the earth...at the same event--the harvest.
Good post. All the dead are resurrected and all people, saved and lost, are gathered at the same time at the end of the age, which is when Christ will return.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:12 PM
Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it.Amils believe that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns and that all believers will be changed and put on immortality at that time. This does not leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom following Christ's return. You can be both amil and post-trib.

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Diggindeeper http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1831546#post1831546)
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way...

Good post. All the dead are resurrected and all people, saved and lost, are gathered at the same time at the end of the age, which is when Christ will return.
Hi John146, :)
Certainly Jesus comes back only once, but when? :hmm:

End of the age meaning the end of the millennium?
Or this age when Satan is still bothering us?

I agree that God will raise up the rest of the dead for judgment after the 1000 yrs (Rev 20:5,12,13), but what about the tribulation martyrs? (Rev 20:6)

I thought Jesus calls us up to meet Him (before the bowls) and then He lands at the end of the bowls to win the battle of Armageddon.
Then He actually reigns on this earth as King for 1000years. (Rev 20:6)


So... are you A-Mil, or did I miss somethin'? :hmm:

Richard

Added: Yeah! I missed your last post. :rofl:

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:44 PM
Hi John146, :)
Certainly Jesus comes back only once, but when? :hmm:

End of the age meaning the end of the millennium?
Or this age when Satan is still bothering us?Both. What did Jesus teach in the parable of the wheat and tares or parable of the fishing net? That there would be two separate gatherings of believers, one of which included only believers and the other of which included unbelievers? No, He did not teach that at all. He taught that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered at the same time for judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, John 5:28-29).


I agree that God will raise up the rest of the dead for judgment after the 1000 yrs (Rev 20:5,12,13), but what about the tribulation martyrs? (Rev 20:6)

I thought Jesus calls us up to meet Him (before the bowls) and then He lands at the end of the bowls to win the battle of Armageddon.
Then He actually reigns on this earth as King for 1000years. (Rev 20:6)


So... are you A-Mil, or did I miss somethin'? :hmm:I am an amillennialist, so I obviously don't agree with the scenario you've laid out there.

divaD
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:45 PM
Amils believe that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns and that all believers will be changed and put on immortality at that time. This does not leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom following Christ's return. You can be both amil and post-trib.


In order for me to even determine if I might have a little amil in me, what does an amil do with the thousand years that satan is bound? What transpires during that thousand years other than satan being bound?

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:54 PM
Both. What did Jesus teach in the parable of the wheat and tares or parable of the fishing net? That there would be two separate gatherings of believers, one of which included only believers and the other of which included unbelievers? No, He did not teach that at all. He taught that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered at the same time for judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, John 5:28-29).

I am an amillennialist, so I obviously don't agree with the scenario you've laid out there.Hi 'John',
Actually, accept for (1Thes 4:16) which may not be specifying only some - and the verses describing the second resurrection - as you're familiar with...
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though. ;)

Tell me, please...
What do you think of Revelation 20?
Is it inaccurate?

Richard

divaD
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:10 PM
Hi 'John',
Actually, accept for (1Thes 4:16) which may not be specifying only some - and the verses describing the second resurrection - as you're familiar with...
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though. ;)

Tell me, please...
What do you think of Revelation 20?
Is it inaccurate?




Richard



Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

If the first resurrection refers to those that are blessed and holy, and if those dead believers before the trib aren't raised until after the thousand years expires, the final resurrection, does this then mean that these particular believers are not blessed and holy, since this description is only given to those of the first resurrection?

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:56 PM
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

If the first resurrection refers to those that are blessed and holy, and if those dead believers before the trib aren't raised until after the thousand years expires, the final resurrection, does this then mean that these particular believers are not blessed and holy, since this description is only given to those of the first resurrection?Hi DivaD, J
I would NOT assume the “rest of the Christians” to be less loved. Certainly ALL are holy and righteous through one blood, so there is no difference in my book.

I think it implies a special blessing.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
To me it speaks of God’s 7th Millennium – a rest from the wiles of Satan – a Sabbath.
And the blessing of being able see and perhaps even to participate in Christ’s reign.

The clincher for me is: it is the Second Resurrection, when the Book of Life is opened.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

The saints martyred by the antichrist are sure to have their names in the book, since they were obedient even unto death.
It is a special time.
A showdown – a throw-down, between God and Satan – sealing Satan’s guilt and deserved punishment.

Note: I am not A-Mil, since I think Jesus will actually reign on this earth for 1000 years, as promised.
If it is coming soon, I really don’t want to lose my head, but 3-4 minutes is much shorter than eternity.
I really don’t want to be some kind of (lower) “king”, but I would like to see His kingdom.

Richard

divaD
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:57 PM
The clincher for me is: it is the Second Resurrection, when the Book of Life is opened.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and
another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were
written in the books, according to their deeds.




Hi Richard. I guess this all depends on perspective. Perhaps the book of life is a record book of sorts that only contain names but nothing else, and the reason it is here is because it shows that those present are not written within it.

Notice what it states first, even before it mentions the book of life.


And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened

Notice, it says books, as in more than one type, then it mentions the book of life as in a particular type, then it goes on to mention that these were judged from the things written in the books. What books? The first set of books that were opened, whatever books these may be. So do you at least see how this can be about perspective? Not that my perspective is correct and yours isn't.





Note: I am not A-Mil, since I think Jesus will actually reign on this earth for 1000 years, as promised.
If it is coming soon, I really don’t want to lose my head, but 3-4 minutes is much shorter than eternity.
I really don’t want to be some kind of (lower) “king”, but I would like to see His kingdom.


I hear you here. We also have to keep in mind that not every believer will die during this time. Not everyone will beheaded. I have always wondered how some could survive but others couldn't, especially when we're told that no one will be able to buy or sell, except those that have the mark of the beast?

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:33 PM
Hi Richard. I guess this all depends on perspective. Perhaps the book of life is a record book of sorts that only contain names but nothing else, and the reason it is here is because it shows that those present are not written within it.

Notice what it states first, even before it mentions the book of life.


And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened

Notice, it says books, as in more than one type, then it mentions the book of life as in a particular type, then it goes on to mention that these were judged from the things written in the books. What books? The first set of books that were opened, whatever books these may be. So do you at least see how this can be about perspective? Not that my perspective is correct and yours isn't.Hi Diva,
I noticed the other books. The way I see it – is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Then the book of life is opened and those not “covered” by the blood, will discover exactly where they messed up – by not trusting in Jesus.

We will say: as the saying goes: “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”

I’m not cast in this view and I really wouldn’t have brought it up, because it does not matter to us.
We will all (now of this time) have a common resurrection and we know that we are righteous because of the Lamb.

I was wondering about this A-Mill perspective, though. It just seems so clear that there will be a 1000 years.

I hear you here. We also have to keep in mind that not every believer will die during this time. Not everyone will beheaded. I have always wondered how some could survive but others couldn't, especially when we're told that no one will be able to buy or sell, except those that have the mark of the beast?
Yes. Some will survive and they shall not even taste the first death - but be changed into a resurrected state.

God will provide for our needs and our destinations.
He has hidden manna, and the water of life.
He has created all things by His Word and His breath gives eternal life.
He has created every molecule in all the galaxies in this infinite universe.

He will provide, but we had better give our faith some exercise, because that is how we will survive.

IF we are getting close enough to witness Daniel’s 70th week, I want to be inwardly prepared as best I can - either way.
When I first came to grips with the possibility, it was depressing to say the least, but I’m determined to trust wherever He leads or places me.
The Lord will do with me as He sees fit.
For now, I am very happy. And I love God so much!

Richard

crush
Oct 24th 2008, 04:51 AM
Hi 'John',
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though. ;)

Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crush

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 05:36 AM
Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crushYup! That's the verse, Crush.
I got lazy or in a hurry or something, so I didn't put in the verse, but that's it.
Thanks for finding it.
Richard

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 05:49 AM
To answer your question, Crush:
I don't really have any other info - other than the verses.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20:4
It does not say who sits on the thrones, but it says that judgement was given to them.

In Matthew, Jesus said that His disciples would sit on thrones in judgment.
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems like a pretty clear connection to me.
Richard

Diggindeeper
Oct 24th 2008, 07:29 AM
Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crush

Yes, Jesus did say the apostles would sit upon 12 thrones, but where did he add "for 1,000 years"?

But... what if the 1,000 years is even now, as we type these posts, already started? There are those precious Christians being tortured and some giving their life for Christ every day, even as we type these words here! In Africa, in China, in so many places. Consider this:

From this site:
National Review Online

Iraq’s Christian Exodus
Targeted by all sides, Christians must choose to leave, or stay and face death.

By Keith Roderick

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjFlZTIyYjZjYjk1NmZhZTc2MmUxNzJjZmI4ZTI0MWI (mhtml:{0C048784-E3B5-414F-A0D2-C6AA51A5DADE}mid://00000046/!x-usc:http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjFlZTIyYjZjYjk1NmZhZTc2MmUxNzJjZmI4ZTI0MWI)=
The United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq reported (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/document/2006/1120unami.pdf) that attacks on individuals and Christian institutions began to seriously escalate in 2006. Since then, Iraq has seen attack after attack on Christian churches and their leaders. A Catholic and a Syrian Orthodox church in Kirkuk, as well as an Anglican church and the Apostolic Nuncio’s residence in Baghdad, were bombed in January 2006, killing three people. In September, two other churches were attacked, in Kirkuk and Baghdad, killing two persons, one a child. Several Christian clergymen were kidnapped or assassinated. Fr. Boulos Iskandar Behnam was kidnapped and murdered. His head had been sliced from his body and placed upon his lifeless chest. In November, Isoh Majeed Hedaya, the president of the Syriac Independent Unified Movement and an advocate for the formation of an Assyrian-Chaldean-Syriac administrative area in the Nineveh Plains, was murdered on his front doorstep. And in December, a high ranking member of the Presbyterian Church in Mosul was murdered. In May, St. George’s Church Baghdad’s Dora neighborhood was bombed for a second time. A Catholic priest and three deacons were murdered outside of their church after saying Mass in Mosul.

Bombs and blood are not enough for the Islamists. Al Qaeda has begun to demand the jizya (protection money demanded of non-Muslims) from Christian families. Those who refuse to pay must leave or be killed. Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi army issued a letter to Christians in Baghdad ordering Christian women to veil themselves. The letter warns that those who do not face grave consequences. In an ominous closing note the letter promises enforcement through special committees. Iraqi Christians face terror from both Sunni and Shiite groups.

The story of one such family provides insight on the dramatic effect that the campaign of violence is having on Christians in Iraq. On September 24t, 2006, terrorists detonated a small explosive outside the Church of St. Mary in Baghdad. The explosion drew out parishioners from the church when an even larger bomb detonated, causing massive casualties. Sargon Hanna was one of five persons who directed parishioners back into the Church, knowing the first explosion to be a trap, saving lives. When the second, more deadly bomb exploded, it cost Sargon his leg. A month later, his son Ashur, a security guard for the church, was kidnapped. The kidnappers informed Sargon that he had three options: convert to Islam and report on other Christians, pay a ransom of $200,000, or drive a car-bomb for them, acting as a suicide bomber.

Over a period of ten days his son was tortured with electric shocks and boiling water. When their demands were not met, the terrorists decided to execute Ashur. He was shot in the spine, the bullet exiting through his stomach. Believing him to be dead, his executors threw his body into the street. He survived, just barely. He was taken to a hospital in Baghdad where his condition deteriorated. After thwarting an attempt by a man in a police uniform to shoot Ashur as he lay, paralyzed, in his hospital bed, the Hanna family was convinced they had to flee. Like so many, they now are refugees in Damascus, Syria.

Just a couple of days ago, the news was that Christians are still being killed there, and are taking refuge in churches or anywhere they can find temporary shelter, fleeing with only what they can carry like blankets and a few pots to cook in and plates.

See, the problem is, this is not all over the news like politics are. And its going on in several countries. Not only in Iraq. We are too sheltered and just don't know what is going on all over the globe.

crush
Oct 24th 2008, 02:34 PM
To answer your question, Crush:
I don't really have any other info - other than the verses.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20:4
It does not say who sits on the thrones, but it says that judgement was given to them.

In Matthew, Jesus said that His disciples would sit on thrones in judgment.
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems like a pretty clear connection to me.
Richard

Thanks Richard. I don't really disagree with you, but I'd like to find some more info on it, that's all.

thx again :)

divaD
Oct 25th 2008, 03:33 PM
I was wondering about this A-Mill perspective, though. It just seems so clear that there will be a 1000 years.



Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 03:49 PM
Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?We had an "a-miller" here, but I think I scared him away. :rolleyes:
I haven't googled it, but I assume the a-mill view is that there is either no millennium or it is somehow metaphorical.

Yer right, the prerequists have not yet taken place.

Those who hold to the veiw that we are somehow IN the millenium, have trouble keeping water in their buckets ;)

I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the a-mill veiw is.
I sort of agree about the gathering of both the good and the bad at the judgement,
but I also believe in the 1000 years. So I'm not a-millennial - or AM I? :hmm:;)

Nah! :no:
There's gunna be a 1000 years under the reign of Jesus the King! :pp

Richard

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?

I am not amil, but I think "ignore" is a strong word. Amil interprets and understands that verse differently than pre mil. But in all fairness that does not equate to "ignore".

The thousand years is not seen as a definite time frame, it's a literal time, just not a definite time frame of a thousand years.

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2008, 06:12 PM
We had an "a-miller" here, but I think I scared him away. :rolleyes:
I haven't googled it, but I assume the a-mill view is that there is either no millennium or it is somehow metaphorical.

Yer right, the prerequists have not yet taken place.

Those who hold to the veiw that we are somehow IN the millenium, have trouble keeping water in their buckets ;)

I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the a-mill veiw is.
I sort of agree about the gathering of both the good and the bad at the judgement,
but I also believe in the 1000 years. So I'm not a-millennial - or AM I? :hmm:;)

Nah! :no:
There's gunna be a 1000 years under the reign of Jesus the King! :pp

Richard

We have many amillers here and would suggest to you guys that instead of assuming anything, simply ask them what they understand scripture to say and then you are free to agree or disagree, but do it without assuming.

:)

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:19 PM
We have many amillers here and would suggest to you guys that instead of assuming anything, simply ask them what they understand scripture to say and then you are free to agree or disagree, but do it without assuming.

:)I thought I was asking - realizing that my "assumptions" were based on ignorance.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:32 PM
Well, I went ahead and googled it - winding up on wikisomething.

'Should have just done my research beforehand.

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2008, 06:35 PM
I thought I was asking - realizing that my "assumptions" were based on ignorance.

No, I am not saying that, and was not fussing at you, nothing personal, just with so many views sometimes our innocent comments can come across to the other side in a way we did not intend. So just trying to help everyone along with us all trying to communicate between many different views and thoughts.

I'm just being a mod, it's my job - :)

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:43 PM
No offence taken, Quiet Dove. :)
Wikisomething seems to have cleared up my confusion.

Richard

mclees8
Oct 25th 2008, 06:43 PM
There is no promise find anywhere in Bible saying that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. In John 16:33 tells us that we must suffer tribulation, but we should be cheer because Christ overcame them at calvary. Also, Paul said that we must go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

These tribulations will not be finish till immediately after the days of tribulation - Matt. 24:29. Christ shall come right after tribulation.

You have to find prove clear verse anywhere in Bible that, it saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation. If you know the clear verse, then please prove it to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!


Hi I am new here. I to once was a pre tribulationist but just as you when i tried to find a clear foundation for it, it was not there. The Lord never taught us that we would not have tribulations or that we would be delivered from any. Christians in the early church never had such a promise and they suffered greatly. You will not find anywhere in scripture that speaks of two kinds of Saints, Pre-trib saints and tribulation saints. Nor does it say there will be two raptures.
If we read Rev 15 we sea beleivers standing before God after they suffered at the hands of the antichrist just before Judgement begins. this clearly show that the church was caught away after suffering the antichrist. Hence there can only be a post trib rapture
mike123

HosannaManna
Oct 25th 2008, 06:49 PM
what are you talking about?

Dani H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:57 PM
Just a couple of days ago, the news was that Christians are still being killed there, and are taking refuge in churches or anywhere they can find temporary shelter, fleeing with only what they can carry like blankets and a few pots to cook in and plates.

See, the problem is, this is not all over the news like politics are. And its going on in several countries. Not only in Iraq. We are too sheltered and just don't know what is going on all over the globe.

According to Voice of the Martyrs, there have been more Christians martyred in the past 100 years than in all the years combined prior to, since the early Church. And it's everywhere. Islamic nations particularly, such as Indonesia and others, as well as many nations in Africa. There are other nations that are famous for persecuting believers, such as China as well. This is also why I have no issue believing that there is tribulation everywhere, and why I expect Jesus to return any day now.

This is why I don't understand why people are waiting for a tribulation, that is obviously already here, and has been for some time. People, driven by antichrist and fueled by satan himself, are murdering our brothers and sisters all over the globe. And when they're not outright murdering them, they're being forced to submit to unbelievable living conditions without having a way out, with their lives on the line, every day. I really think many of us are waiting for something that is already happening, and we're just not seeing it.

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2008, 07:24 PM
There is no doubt that believers are persecuted all over the world and have been through out history. My question is though, as far as the GT goes as related to end times, how does that prove anything when the GT is God's wrath? Don't get me wrong, persecution is most certainly tribulation, but persecution is not God's wrath.

Pre trib does not teach believers will not suffer tribulation, it teaches they will not suffer God's wrath. And since Christ opens that first seal and is the only One worthy, I am going to have to stick with the entire time frame being God's wrath, from the first seal to the seventh.

His wrath being something we do not have to fear, in this life or the next. Any man or woman alive prior to the GT at the time of a pre trib rapture, has the offer of mercy and of not being here, if they are here, it will be due to their rejection of Christ. Just like every man and woman who ever lived had the offer of mercy, through Christ, of not suffering eternal punishment.

And as always, our goal should be spreading the Gospel and praying for the lost in hopes they will suffer neither the GT or eternal judgment.

divaD
Oct 25th 2008, 07:33 PM
This is why I don't understand why people are waiting for a tribulation, that is obviously already here,
and has been for some time.



Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



I don't know...maybe it's just me..but these verses paint a tribulation quite differently than tribultion in general, particularily verse 22. Can you show how, by tribulation in general, how the days have been shortened because of it? Hasn't the kind of tribulation that you're speaking of, hasn't this been going on for thousands of years? Doesn't verse 22 say that unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened?

Wouldn't this clearly tell us that this is speaking about a certain tribulation, and not tribultion in general?

Dani H
Oct 25th 2008, 08:57 PM
Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

These things have already happened, and are happening now.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Obviously, the gospel has to be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations before the end comes. The verse after that begins with "Therefore" and, to me, is a further detailed explanation of what has already been stated up to that point. And I do believe that much of Matthew 24 relates directly to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem 70 A.D. because of references to Judea and the Sabbath. I don't think the whole chapter does, though. I find much of that chapter confusing, quite frankly, because to me, it seems to be a mix of events.

That's how I understand it. Feel free to offer your views, and let's enrich one another and help one another gain better understanding. :)

scourge39
Oct 25th 2008, 10:00 PM
Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

These things have already happened, and are happening now.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Obviously, the gospel has to be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations before the end comes. The verse after that begins with "Therefore" and, to me, is a further detailed explanation of what has already been stated up to that point. And I do believe that much of Matthew 24 relates directly to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem 70 A.D. because of references to Judea and the Sabbath. I don't think the whole chapter does, though. I find much of that chapter confusing, quite frankly, because to me, it seems to be a mix of events.

That's how I understand it. Feel free to offer your views, and let's enrich one another and help one another gain better understanding. :)

Excellent Post. Matthew 24 is a summary/timeline of redemptive history from the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming.

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 12:02 AM
IMO: (the bowls of) Wrath is a subset of the great trib - but not something we will suffer.

Richard

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:9

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 4:17,18

After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,
and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
Rev 15:5-7

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
Rev 16:1

RevLogos
Oct 26th 2008, 12:43 AM
Deleted - Sorry bout that - probably seemed Non sequitur. Wrong thread...

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 09:49 PM
In order for me to even determine if I might have a little amil in me, what does an amil do with the thousand years that satan is bound? What transpires during that thousand years other than satan being bound?I don't have the time to explain it all to you right now, but you can read this: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/reading/article.cgi?id=28

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 09:58 PM
We had an "a-miller" here, but I think I scared him away. :rolleyes:
I haven't googled it, but I assume the a-mill view is that there is either no millennium or it is somehow metaphorical.

Yer right, the prerequists have not yet taken place.

Those who hold to the veiw that we are somehow IN the millenium, have trouble keeping water in their buckets ;):rolleyes:


I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the a-mill veiw is. Really? You're apparently an expert on what it is since you are able to say that those who hold to that view have trouble keeping water in their buckets. :rolleyes:


I sort of agree about the gathering of both the good and the bad at the judgement, Sort of? What does the parable of the wheat and tares teach us?



but I also believe in the 1000 years. So I'm not a-millennial - or AM I? :hmm:;)

Nah! :no:
There's gunna be a 1000 years under the reign of Jesus the King! :pp

RichardYou're free to believe what you want, but it wouldn't hurt you to show a little more respect to those who believe otherwise.

Richard H
Oct 27th 2008, 10:05 PM
You're free to believe what you want, but it wouldn't hurt you to show a little more respect to those who believe otherwise.I Agree. 'Sorry.

crush
Oct 27th 2008, 11:17 PM
Sort of? What does the parable of the wheat and tares teach us?


The parable of the wheat and tares tells us that God allows the wheat [just] and tares [unjust] to live together on the field [earth] until the time of harvest [Great Tribulation].

At the time of the Harvest, the wheat [just] is gathered into the barn [off the field] and the tares are gathered into bundles [on the field] and burned.

The field is not burned! The bundles on the field are burned. Resulting in some scorch marks on the field, but a relatively unburned field.

If the field was to be destroyed [burned] in the process of burning the tares, the "gathering into bundles" would not be necessary, and a general waste of time really. The parable would read " Gather the wheat into my barn then burn the field", it doesn't.....

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 28th 2008, 11:13 AM
Whether it's pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib for goodness sake, it's still there is Rapture and Second Coming, even though most people around me are pre-trib...let's quit confusing ourselves...:lol::giveup:

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 05:03 PM
The parable of the wheat and tares tells us that God allows the wheat [just] and tares [unjust] to live together on the field [earth] until the time of harvest [Great Tribulation].

At the time of the Harvest, the wheat [just] is gathered into the barn [off the field] and the tares are gathered into bundles [on the field] and burned.

The field is not burned! The bundles on the field are burned. Resulting in some scorch marks on the field, but a relatively unburned field.

If the field was to be destroyed [burned] in the process of burning the tares, the "gathering into bundles" would not be necessary, and a general waste of time really. The parable would read " Gather the wheat into my barn then burn the field", it doesn't.....That's not really the point I'm making in this thread, but thanks, anyway. The point I'm making here is that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered for judgment at the same time at the end of the age. When it talks about the tares being burned it's not speaking specifically of when they're destroyed physically at Christ's return, but of the fact that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire at the judgment (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). In Matthew 13, it's called "a furnace of fire".

markdrums
Oct 28th 2008, 07:19 PM
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



I don't know...maybe it's just me..but these verses paint a tribulation quite differently than tribultion in general, particularily verse 22. Can you show how, by tribulation in general, how the days have been shortened because of it? Hasn't the kind of tribulation that you're speaking of, hasn't this been going on for thousands of years? Doesn't verse 22 say that unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened?

Wouldn't this clearly tell us that this is speaking about a certain tribulation, and not tribultion in general?

One thing to keep in mind....
(I know divaD LOVES when I preface my post with those words!! LOL!!) :lol:

Matthew 24 never speaks of "A" Great Tribulation or "The" Great Tribulation....
It says ".....there will be great tribulation......".

By inserting the article "A" or "THE",the context changes from what was originally intended to be understood.
I think that's where most of the problem & confusion comes from. Because according to John, in Revelation, writing TO the seven churches in Asia, he was their brother & fellow companion in tribulation.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 07:55 PM
Whether it's pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib for goodness sake, it's still there is Rapture and Second Coming, even though most people around me are pre-trib...let's quit confusing ourselves...:lol::giveup:
Hi Sinichi,
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying we shouldn't discuss this?

divaD
Oct 28th 2008, 08:56 PM
One thing to keep in mind....
(I know divaD LOVES when I preface my post with those words!! LOL!!) :lol:

Matthew 24 never speaks of "A" Great Tribulation or "The" Great Tribulation....
It says ".....there will be great tribulation......".

By inserting the article "A" or "THE",the context changes from what was originally intended to be understood.
I think that's where most of the problem & confusion comes from. Because according to John, in Revelation, writing TO the seven churches in Asia, he was their brother & fellow companion in tribulation.




Hi markdrums. Well you got me there. I can't disagree with that. The text certainly never stated anything about 'a' great trib or 'the' great trib. It simply stated great tribulation, just like you stated. Now I'm sure you probably hate this also, lol, you know..that 'but' I tend to insert from time to time..so here it is, since I don't like letting others down...but even so, doesn't verses 15-20 define the beginning of great affliction, thus pinpointing great affliction to a certain period of time, namely the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet? Isn't it when verse 15 starts to come to pass, that there will then be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?



Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


IMO this is all the same thought and is directly related to great tribulation. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that your take on these verses is that they've already been fullfilled. With that in mind, how do you logically explain verse 22? Should one take the shortening of days as figurative and not literal? I mean, since we're all still here 2000 years later, and if this has already occured, then how were the days in verse 22
shortened in order that all flesh wouldn't be lost? I can't see how you can logically make verse 22 work if all these verses have already been fullfilled thousands of years ago.

markdrums
Oct 28th 2008, 09:20 PM
Hi markdrums. Well you got me there. I can't disagree with that. The text certainly never stated anything about 'a' great trib or 'the' great trib. It simply stated great tribulation, just like you stated. Now I'm sure you probably hate this also, lol, you know..that 'but' I tend to insert from time to time..so here it is, since I don't like letting others down...but even so, doesn't verses 15-20 define the beginning of great affliction, thus pinpointing great affliction to a certain period of time, namely the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet? Isn't it when verse 15 starts to come to pass, that there will then be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?



Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


IMO this is all the same thought and is directly related to great tribulation. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that your take on these verses is that they've already been fullfilled. With that in mind, how do you logically explain verse 22? Should one take the shortening of days as figurative and not literal? I mean, since we're all still here 2000 years later, and if this has already occured, then how were the days in verse 22
shortened in order that all flesh wouldn't be lost? I can't see how you can logically make verse 22 work if all these verses have already been fullfilled thousands of years ago.


I know what you mean.... it's confusing at first.... but stay with me.
;)

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Where was the Holy Place?
And why did Jesus specifically say those who are "In Judea" flee to the mountians?

This was still in reference to the destruction of the temple. That's the context of this chapter.

Now, How can the following passages be resolved to the first century?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Hyperbole.
Remember God's promise after the flood..... which was the most devastating event EVER! It wiped out EVERYBODY who was not on the Ark. God promised that he would never again hand down judgment so severe, like the flood.

If Jesus was speaking literally in verse 21, he's in direct contradiction with what he said after the flood.
So, using hyperbole, he emphasized that Christians would soon face the most severe persecution THEY PERSONALLY had ever known. Which in fact they did, at the hands of the Roman Empire.

Lastly, When Jesus referred back to Daniel, concerning the Abomination of Desolation, it would have brought back vivid memories of the FIRST Abomination; when Antiochus Epiphanes IV desecrated the altar with the blood of unclean animals, & erected a statue of Zeus Olympus.

When the SECOND Temple was desecrated with the blood of the Pharisees, & the armies surrounded Jerusalem, THAT was the Abomination Jesus foretold to his disciples.

markedward
Oct 29th 2008, 12:09 AM
Isn't it when verse 15 starts to come to pass, that there will then be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?I think it is Ezekiel who used similar phrasing when prophesying the events of the coming Babylonian armies. Each prophet was emphasizing the uniqueness of what was happening, not that nothing would ever happen "after".

Ezekiel 5:9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

The best way to describe this is hyperbole... if we take Ezekiel 5:9 at face value we get a false statement - Ezekiel 5:9 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Chaldeans... if we take the "I will do this and never again" part literally, it contradicts the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed again and the temple was destroyed again by the Romans.

The context of Matthew 24:21 should be obvious: the previous chapter consisted of Christ proclaiming judgment against the wicked (particularly the Pharisees), this chapter opened up with Christ's prophecy that the second temple of Jerusalem would be destroyed (you know, the temple they were pointing at), followed by His disciples asking Him when that (the destruction of the second temple) would happen. Even this verse is immediately preceded by Christ's statement to flee Judea... where the second temple is. Any attempt to take this "great tribulation" and apply it to the final days of earth instead of to the time-period that the context of the prophecy demands falls flat.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:47 PM
Well, I was just worried if other readers will be confused if it's their first time reading these concepts...cause those concepts were created during 18 century..and we don't know which one are true :giveup: I am really tired to debate about these views but there got to be a Rapture and a Second Coming...
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/timeline/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/%7Elasttrumpet/timeline/index.html)
http://www.apocalypsefoundation.co.za/Matthew_24/Matt24_3Rapture.htm

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Hi Shinichi,
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying we shouldn't discuss this?

Dragonfighter1
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:53 PM
Well, I was just worried if other readers will be confused if it's their first time reading these concepts...cause those concepts were created during 18 century..and we don't know which one are true :giveup: I am really tired to debate about these views but there got to be a Rapture and a Second Coming...
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/timeline/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/%7Elasttrumpet/timeline/index.html)
http://www.apocalypsefoundation.co.za/Matthew_24/Matt24_3Rapture.htm

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Shinichi,
It can be tiring, but it is important too. All readers need to understand for themselves the options and issues. The guiding hand of the Holy Spirit must be given opportunity to guide. There will be a Rapture and a Second coming but some see these as years apart and some as seconds apart. The ramifications are significant when you consider what it means to suddenly find out you were wrong (on either side).

Df1

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:37 PM
I understand...

graygm18
Nov 14th 2008, 07:14 AM
Hi all,
I just spent the last week reading thru this topic, interesting. My first observation is that most on this topic are “post-trib”, which is fine with me. I do have a question for you. Most of you tend to lean toward a pre-wrath rapture (i.e. after the 7th trumpet, before the 1st bowl). In your opinion/studies, when would that happen? When during the tribulation period would the first bowl occur?
Just so you know; I am not looking for a specific date (as no one knows this) but a general reference in terms of order. I want to understand your viewpoint.
In Christ,
Jerry

DurbanDude
Nov 14th 2008, 08:59 AM
Hi all,
I just spent the last week reading thru this topic, interesting. My first observation is that most on this topic are “post-trib”, which is fine with me. I do have a question for you. Most of you tend to lean toward a pre-wrath rapture (i.e. after the 7th trumpet, before the 1st bowl). In your opinion/studies, when would that happen? When during the tribulation period would the first bowl occur?
Just so you know; I am not looking for a specific date (as no one knows this) but a general reference in terms of order. I want to understand your viewpoint.
In Christ,
Jerry

I personally am not pre-wrath, I believe the surviving Christians at the time of wrath will avoid most of the wrath just by virtue of circumstance, they will know to stay indoors to avoid the heat, they will not be participating in the war in Israel because most will be in jail or in hiding, they will not be at sea because they will be in hiding and not participating in jobs or trade, only those with marks get the sores, probably related to the technology of the mark.

I believe this because the moment of rapture is repeatedly associated with the war in Israel and especially with a great earthquake, which are the at the end of the bowls of wrath (Rev 16:16+18).

I believe there is some overlap of the seals , the trumpets, and the bowls: Something like this:


I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL
I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
I------seven bowls--------DOTL

There is no indication that the three series are consecutive , the sixth seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are all associated with the events surrounding a great earthquake.

The Day Of The Lord involves the resurrection (traditionally rapture) followed by a great eathquake, and a finalisation of the war already taking place in Armageddon.

graygm18
Nov 14th 2008, 05:23 PM
I believe there is some overlap of the seals , the trumpets, and the bowls: Something like this:

I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
-------------------- I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
--------------------------- I------sevenbowls--------DOTL


Great visualization!

In this timeline above, what does the "I" represent?

Thanks,
Jerry

DurbanDude
Nov 14th 2008, 05:42 PM
Great visualization!

In this timeline above, what does the "I" represent?

Thanks,
Jerry


The starting point , I tried to use blanks before the "I" but it didn't work, I should have rather left justify the 3 timelines,let me try edit it again.

Dragonfighter1
Nov 14th 2008, 05:58 PM
try right justify

I------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL ........ .
I------sevenbowls--------DOTL......... .


or set the leading dashes to color white so they are invisible...as....

I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
-------------------- I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
--------------------------- I------sevenbowls--------DOTL

DurbanDude
Nov 15th 2008, 06:47 AM
Thanks, that worked!