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Dragonfighter1
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:16 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

jen74
Oct 2nd 2008, 06:41 PM
Good question? I am now confused too. Hope someone has some insight

crush
Oct 2nd 2008, 07:30 PM
God's wrath is poured out on the beast worshipers prior to Christ's second coming, and prior to the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs (the first resurrection). The timetable is explained here [Rev 6:10-11]. God's wrath doesn't begin until the last tribulation martyr that is supposed to be killed is killed, then Wrath, then the resurrection of the Martyrs and translation of the elect that remain alive at Christ's coming.

The Angels carrying out God's Wrath are instructed not to hurt the elect, those that have his seal [see Rev 9:4], which is evidence that the elect are present during God's Wrath, but protected from it.

Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, not the Beast [see Rev 20:2].

quiet dove
Oct 2nd 2008, 11:34 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

In reading Rev 6 we see that Jesus opening the seals begins the "wrath of the Lamb", Jesus is the only One worthy to open the seals of God's wrath. It is also a time when believers are persecuted, so it seems that the wrath of God upon those who reject Him has begun and also severe persecution of the saints. Rev 20:5 would be after the GT (great tribulation), and prior to the Millennial.

First resurrection may not necessarily be a counting resurrections thing either, "first resurrection" could describe resurrection to life, which all believers in Christ will experience at some point, be it all of them at one time or one of them at a time, they will all experience resurrection to life immortal/incorruptible.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:30 PM
Then I must be a post tribber?:idea:

quiet dove
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:24 PM
In reading Rev 6 we see that Jesus opening the seals begins the "wrath of the Lamb", Jesus is the only One worthy to open the seals of God's wrath. It is also a time when believers are persecuted, so it seems that the wrath of God upon those who reject Him has begun and also severe persecution of the saints. Rev 20:5 would be after the GT (great tribulation), and prior to the Millennial.

First resurrection may not necessarily be a counting resurrections thing either, "first resurrection" could describe resurrection to life, which all believers in Christ will experience at some point, be it all of them at one time or one of them at a time, they will all experience resurrection to life immortal/incorruptible.

I should have put in the above post that the thousand years is while Satan is bound, or IMHU

vinsight4u8
Oct 4th 2008, 01:35 AM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

Think about Hebrews 9:28, and then apply how it shows Jesus appears at the time of salvation.
What is said in the first verse of Rev. 19?
salvation

So make the time of Jesus appears as placed at the start of Rev. 19, then soon comes the marriage and the saints get their attire that they will come later from heaven wearing.

See how "armies" come down after the marriage?
armies - as in plural
but the saints won't all go fight at Armageddon

one army - the great tribulation martyrs won't fight because they have already overcome the beast

thus - they will "live and reign"
the other army of saints - will live, fight, reign
"they sat"
(To understand this properly - we need to let chapter 19 show us the army that went to the battle.

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying...salvation..."
. (Jesus appeared) - rapture time
19:2
"For....he hath judged the great whore city, which did corrupt the earth..hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
. (mystery, Babylon is punished)
The great tribulation corrupt the earth city has been taken down.
19:3
"And the four and twenty elders...worshipped God..."
. (notice this is after the time of the 7th trumpet - as that 7th trumpet begins with the 24 elders as still seated from their time of chapter 4)
19:5
"...all ye his servants, and ye that fear him both small and great."
. (Rev. 11:18 - fear Him - both small and great- 7th trumpet)
19:7
"..the marriage of the Lamb is come...his wfe hath made herself ready."
19:8
"And to her was granted...fine linen, clean and white...saints."
19:11
"...heaven opened..."
19:14
"And the armies [which were] in heaven followed...clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

19:20
"...his army."
20:4
"And...they sat..."

vinsight4u8
Oct 4th 2008, 02:02 AM
The 6th seal begins the wrath of the Lamb.

The Lamb - or God's wrath can't begin till the 5th seal is over.

"How long...dost thou not judge and avenge..."
. (5th seal)
But shortly it will become time for the wicked to go hide in the rocks - for Jesus has appeared - and time to avenge the blood of the tribulation martyrs.


John 5 shows that there is only one hour - one moment of time - when all of the just will rise.

Then later will come an hour - a time - when all of the wicked will rise from the dead.


When is the hour for the just to all rise from the dead?
Rev. 11 - the 7th trumpet
. (where the great earthquake hour occurs - and the two witnesses are to rise at the same hour)


So what does Rev. 6 actually begin?
. The nation that is to anger Israel in the prophecy foretold in Deuteronomy 32.
V34 = sealed
laid up in store

/ Iraq
The seals are the story outline of the times of Iraq.

wpm
Oct 4th 2008, 02:07 AM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begottenprootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Dragonfighter1
Oct 4th 2008, 02:21 AM
The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begottenprootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”


WPM, you really have me confused. Well actually I confuse myself but you exposed it to me.. Ermmm.... Isnt rev 20:5 the first Resurrection of the dead in Christ. Yes Christ was the first of all but it does call rev 20:5 the FIRST resurrection.... of the dead in Christ

I am not trying to start an arguement. I am earnestly seeking to understand. (I truly am a slow learner)

livingword26
Oct 4th 2008, 03:00 AM
WPM, you really have me confused. Well actually I confuse myself but you exposed it to me.. Ermmm.... Isnt rev 20:5 the first Resurrection of the dead in Christ. Yes Christ was the first of all but it does call rev 20:5 the FIRST resurrection.... of the dead in Christ

I am not trying to start an arguement. I am earnestly seeking to understand. (I truly am a slow learner)

I believe that WPM is an amillennialist. If I am correct, he believes that we have been in the 1000 year millennial reign with Christ for the last 2000 years, and that Satan is currently bound and in the pit where he has been that whole time. In my opinion, this particular doctrine has no scriptural support.

ross3421
Oct 4th 2008, 04:24 AM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

It is confusing when one takes the 1000 years literally. The phrase 1000 years is being used metaphorically and denotes "timelessness" outside of this relm. This is truley the understand when Peter states 1000 years as a day and a day as a 1000 years, where? in heaven with the Lord. (though Satan is in Hell)

So Satan is not yet bound but he will be prior to Christ's return. How can he arise from the bottomless pit least he be bound?

Mark

crush
Oct 4th 2008, 03:00 PM
The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begottenprootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”


Originally Posted by quiet dove http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1810229#post1810229)
First resurrection may not necessarily be a counting resurrections thing either, "first resurrection" could describe resurrection to life, which all believers in Christ will experience at some point, be it all of them at one time or one of them at a time, they will all experience resurrection to life immortal/incorruptible.


Christ's was resurrected "first" certainly, we know this by the eyewitness accounts, seeing that his body was no longer in his tomb.


Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid himAn easy way to prove that "*no resurrection" of believers has occured since Christ's resurrection would be to dig up the dead ones and see if they are still there :lol:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

*Mat 27:52-53 noted

third hero
Oct 4th 2008, 06:10 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

1st point.
The "AntiChrist" is not bound at all when Revelation 20:5 takes place. The Beast, (which you call the AntiChrist), is already judged and burning alive in the Lake of Fire.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. -Revelation 19:20.

2nd point.
You see, Revelation 20 talks about when the Lord establishes His Kingdom here on earth, the one point that has Amils crawling up walls. It is not the Beast who is seal away for 1000 years, it is Satan.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. -Revelation 20:2-3

3rd point.
Like it is written in Daniel 7, the Lord willl be given the entire earth, and He shall rule it, and His saints will rule it with Him. Those who died during the Great Tribulation for the sake of Lord Jesus's Gospel will be resurrected to rule the world with Him.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. -Dan 7:9-10

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. -Dan 7:13-14

I was going to comment, but I feel instead that the explanation that the Angel gives Daniel is more than sufficient.

I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. -Daniel 7:16-22

Especially verse 22 explains even in the OT where the saints were going to be attacked and conquered by the "little horn", which in Revelation he is called the Beast. But the Lord came, and gave His righteous judgment to the saints, and they end up taking over the entire earth. This is the roots of Revelation 20:4-6.

The reason why the rest of the believers were not resurrected is because the final judgment is not until after the Lord hands over the earth to "The Ancient One" for destruction. (Revelation 20:11, 1 Peter 3:10, 1 Corinthian 15:23-28). When the earth is being emptied of all souls, the earth and the heavens will be destroyed by God the Father, hence trhe reason for verse 5.

I hope this helps a little.

third hero
Oct 4th 2008, 06:13 PM
WPM, you really have me confused. Well actually I confuse myself but you exposed it to me.. Ermmm.... Isnt rev 20:5 the first Resurrection of the dead in Christ. Yes Christ was the first of all but it does call rev 20:5 the FIRST resurrection.... of the dead in Christ

I am not trying to start an arguement. I am earnestly seeking to understand. (I truly am a slow learner)

Actually, dragonfighter, you are only repeating what the sriptures actually say, without interpretation.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5.

Let every man be a liar, and the scriptures be true.

third hero
Oct 4th 2008, 06:22 PM
It is confusing when one takes the 1000 years literally. The phrase 1000 years is being used metaphorically and denotes "timelessness" outside of this relm. This is truley the understand when Peter states 1000 years as a day and a day as a 1000 years, where? in heaven with the Lord. (though Satan is in Hell)

So Satan is not yet bound but he will be prior to Christ's return. How can he arise from the bottomless pit least he be bound?

Mark

What is confusing is how some can come to the conclusion that a sentence that is as exact as it is stated in Revelation 20 can be figurated into something that is completely opposite of what the scripture actually says. How can Satan's imprisonment for 1000 years not equal what is stated?

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. -Revelation 20:1-3

This description is not even close to the definition that Amils attempt to affix to it. This scripture plainly states that when the Lord returns, while the nations that attacked Israel are slaughtered by Lord Jesus, Satan, the power behind the Beast, is chained up, thrown into the bottomless abyss, and sealed away from the earth for 1000 years, immediately followed by the phrase, "and after that he must be loosed for a season". This makes it very clear that this is an exact sentence. There is nothing firguating about it.

livingword26
Oct 4th 2008, 11:11 PM
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5.



Amen. It just doesn't get any plainer than that.

Saved7
Oct 5th 2008, 06:23 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

There is a resurrection of the saints and rapture which occur almost simultaneously, just before the wrath is poured out on a wicked world. AFter the wrath, comes the "judgement" of the wicked, and satan and the beast and the false prohet, which includes judging the wicked "dead", so they too will be resurrected, but not until the end of the wrath.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 6th 2008, 12:23 PM
But that means that the rapture cannot occur before the trib right? Ergo it is a post trib rapture, else the first resurrection(REV 20:5) would really be the second.

(OK now I am confusing myself)

ananias
Oct 6th 2008, 02:57 PM
But that means that the rapture cannot occur before the trib right? Ergo it is a post trib rapture, else the first resurrection(REV 20:5) would really be the second.

(OK now I am confusing myself)

"The tribulation" is a term used in the last 100 years to commonly refer to the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world. This is why there is so much confusion.

The distinction between tribulation and wrath:

1 Tribulation:

"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation (Greek: thlipsis), but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh.16: 33).

"But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation (Greek: thlipsis) or persecution arises on account of the Word, he immediately stumbles." (Mat.13: 21).

"Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: thlipsis) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another." (Mat.24: 9-10).

"for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Mat.24: 21-22).

"... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act.14: 22).

2 Wrath:

"He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him."
(Joh.3: 36).

The New Testamet makes a very clear distinction between the period of the great tribulation of the saints and the period of God's wrath which follows it. The seventh trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwhiched between (on one hand) the verses describing the martyrdom and subsequent resurrection and removal into heaven of "the two witnesses" of Jesus (Rev.11: 7-14), and (on the other hand) the wrath of God coming upon the world.

Just as those who were in the ark in the seventh of seven years (Gen.7: 1, 4, 10) were "lifted out" of the world only when the judgment of God came, so "the two witnesses" of Jesus are shown to be lifted out only when the judgment of God comes.

Zechariah chapter 4 (a short chapter) and Zech.4: 14 compared with Rev.11: 4 and Rev.19: 10c will tell you who "the two witnesses" of Jesus refers to.

"And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.
And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Rev.13: 7).

ananias

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 06:59 PM
...(OK now I am confusing myself)

Don't feel bad. You're getting a lot of help. Right now, you're looking at a bowl of spaghetti and you're looking for one particular strand. Go back to the Scripture. It took me about 25 years to find my "peace" about this stuff. You won't learn it in one day, and certainly not in a thread on a message board.

Ask the Spirit, Who gives wisdom. He will guide you. :)

Here's are some questions for the others:


John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Which Resurrection did Martha think Lazarus would be resurrected at? What did she mean by the "last day"? If she was talking about the first resurrection in Rev 20, then why is that the last day? Isn't there another 1,000 years until the "last day"?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 6th 2008, 08:10 PM
Don't feel bad. ....
(abbreviated TEXT)
Which Resurrection did Martha think Lazarus would be resurrected at? What did she mean by the "last day"? If she was talking about the first resurrection in Rev 20, then why is that the last day? Isn't there another 1,000 years until the "last day"?


In the words of the British: Crikey Mate! As if I don't have enough problems now I have another conundrum to solve.

The last day....hmmm when...hmmm.. First question for you is: Just cause its in the Bible doesn't mean its truth... (Let me explain before you explode-cause I would explode too without an explanation).. Martha is asking the question....Martha is a fallen human who could be misinformed right? SO the scripture is accurately reporting what could be a misunderstanding by Martha. (I wish they had a quick reference scripture link in these chat rooms it would be very helpful)

To calm my friends anguish at the other statement let me also point out that sin is in the Bible but sin isnt truth either-that was all I meant :kiss:NOTHING MORE! LOL)

Second question: (assuming she was not wrong) Could she have meant the last day...of this dispensation?..
(Oh Lordy, now I opened a can of worms):P

Third question..can we just take out the tough passages and make up our own theology ..it would be so much easier:rofl::rofl::rofl:

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 08:16 PM
Which Resurrection did Martha think Lazarus would be resurrected at? What did she mean by the "last day"? If she was talking about the first resurrection in Rev 20, then why is that the last day? Isn't there another 1,000 years until the "last day"?

Since Lazarus isn't a martyr that dies during the Great Tribulation you are correct that he does not rise at the "first resurrection", he rises during the "rest of the dead" resurrection, on the "last day".

The requirements to be raised at the "first resurrection" are this [Rev 20:4-6]

1) are beheadedfor the Testimony of Jesus
2) do not worship the beast
3) do not receive the "mark of the beast"

Lazarus, nor any other believer in history, has met the requirement [yet] to be raised in the "first resurrection"

All believers, not just Lazarus, are promised to be raised to eternal life on the "last day"

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I really don't see how this argument is anything but damaging to the pre-trib POV. If you don't believe that the "last day" occurs at the end of the Tribulation, at Christ's coming, why would a pre-tribber assume it occurs seven [or 3 1/2] years prior?

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 08:23 PM
The last day....hmmm when...hmmm.. First question for you is: Just cause its in the Bible doesn't mean its truth... (Let me explain before you explode-cause I would explode too without an explanation).. Martha is asking the question....Martha is a fallen human who could be misinformed right? SO the scripture is accurately reporting what could be a misunderstanding by Martha. (I wish they had a quick reference scripture link in these chat rooms it would be very helpful)


Martha's statement is confirmed by the words of Christ in John 6:40, so she isn't incorrect :lol:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 6th 2008, 08:41 PM
I really don't see how this argument is anything but damaging to the pre-trib POV. If you don't believe that the "last day" occurs at the end of the Tribulation, at Christ's coming, why would a pre-tribber assume it occurs seven [or 3 1/2] years prior?

I am not a pre tribber (I think) But I want to be fully (or MORE FULLY) convinced of what I think is a post trib position. I am a doubting thomas in many ways and when I run into someone fully convinced of a position different to mine I empathise too much and want to understand or change either him or me. (I know its silly but that is me)

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 08:48 PM
I am not a pre tribber (I think) But I want to be fully (or MORE FULLY) convinced of what I think is a post trib position. I am a doubting thomas in many ways and when I run into someone fully convinced of a position different to mine I empathise too much and want to understand or change either him or me. (I know its silly but that is me)

yeah, I know Dragonfighter. That comment was directed at IBWatching who is arguing the for pre-trib POV.

I appreciate your desire to become fully convinced of a doctrine before you accept it, and I "fully" agree that is the best approach :)

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 09:01 PM
Since Lazarus isn't a martyr that dies during the Great Tribulation you are correct that he does not rise at the "first resurrection", he rises during the "rest of the dead" resurrection, on the "last day". ...

Everything hinges on what Martha considered to be the "last day". And no, I didn't make any assertions, just asked questions. I believe he will be raised on the "last day" as both Martha understood it and Jesus stated it, or when the dead Church saints are resurrected (if he lived to become part of it).

The problem with me believing it the way you stated it is that there are two resurrections in Rev 20, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. Clearly, Martha and Jesus were talking about the resurrection of the Righteous. Unless you think Lazarus was destined for damnation.

The "first" resurrection in Revelation is for those whom the "second death" has no power over. Also, the last resurrection, which is of the "rest of the dead" is not the one Paul was looking for:


Philippians 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.A resurrection "from" the dead means that someone is taken from the rest of the dead. Not everyone who is dead rises. Just some. That's why Jesus' Resurrection is always referred to as "from the dead" (Paul uses it 11 times in Romans alone...all referring to Jesus' resurrection).

The last resurrection in Rev 20 is not the one Paul wanted to be part of. So which one does he get resurrected in? The one when the dead Church saints (which he most certainly is now) at the one time gathering/changing of the Church...in the air...by Jesus.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 09:19 PM
one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.

This isn't true. There is a resurrection that occurs at the end of the 1000 years, "the rest of the dead" resurrection, where ALL in the graves are risen - some to everlasting life, some to everlasting torment [John 5:28-29]. John says that this resurrection occurs within the "same hour". An "hour" may not literally mean 1 hour, but it certainly doesn't imply two separate resurrections separated by 1000 years.




Clearly, Martha and Jesus were talking about the resurrection of the Righteous. Unless you think Lazarus was destined for damnation.see above


The "first" resurrection in Revelation is for those whom the "second death" has no power over.The "second death has no power" over the tribulation martyrs - why? Because everyone of them are guaranteed and given everlasting life.

All other believers will face judgment day, the tribulation martyrs will not. They will be given immortality and never face judgment day. Why would a believer be given immortality BEFORE they are judged according to their works?


Also, the last resurrection, which is of the "rest of the dead" is not the one Paul was looking for:Paul, in context, was speaking of being conformed into the resurrection of Christ, which is a model for everyone that is resurrected to life.




A resurrection "from" the dead means that someone is taken from the rest of the dead. Not everyone who is dead rises. Just some. That's why Jesus' Resurrection is always referred to as "from the dead" (Paul uses it 11 times in Romans alone...all referring to Jesus' resurrection).I don't disagree


The last resurrection in Rev 20 is not the one Paul wanted to be part of. So which one does he get resurrected in? The one when the dead Church saints (which he most certainly is now) at the one time gathering/changing of the Church...in the air...by Jesus.A better resurrection would be to everlasting life, rather than everlasting torment wouldn't you say?

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 09:44 PM
There is a special blessing that goes forth from the beginning of the Beast's "war against the saints" to all that die "in Christ"

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What are their works?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Once you are beheaded for Jesus there is no chance of you screwing up later LOL, because you are dead!

So how do we know that the martyrs names are written in the book of life? wouldn't they also have to wait to be resurrected before the book was opened at the GWT judgement day? No. As surely as receiving the "mark of the beast" condemns you, not receiving the mark of the beast "saves" you, if you are faithful until death. The martyrs are faithful until the end.

Everyone who does not receive the "mark of the beast" during the tribulation, has their name written in the book of life, Everyone who does take the "mark of the beast" during the tribulation, will be cast into the lake of fire, their names are not written in the book of life. Haven't you ever wondered why the "beast" and the "false prophet" are cast into the lake of fire BEFORE judgement day? If judgment day is for the wicked, why are the MOST wicked excluded? Because receiving/not receiving the "mark of the beast" is the same as opening the book of life, you are judged by this action.

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 10:01 PM
...All other believers will face judgment day, the tribulation martyrs will not. They will be given immortality and never face judgment day. Why would a believer be given immortality BEFORE they are judged according to their works?...A better resurrection would be to everlasting life, rather than everlasting torment wouldn't you say?

I'm not seeing at all from Scriptures what this has to do with the two resurrections in Rev 20 and the differences between them. I'll give you two more Scriptures to illustrate the difference:


John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.

Here Jesus tells the disciples that when Jesus comes for them (and they are all dead now), they are going to heaven.


Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!

Jesus tells His disciples they are headed for heaven when He comes for them. Meanwhile, Job doesn't see himself in heaven when he gets resurrected. He is on the earth, looking at Jesus Himself. According to you, this is all impossible, as OT saints and the disciples would not be resurrected until the GWT judgment. When does Job get judged?

The GWT judgment is for the lost. No one would escape a guilty plea as the books of their deeds would convict all...including me and you. The sentencing is done by the Book of Life. And here's another passage which doesn't fit what you are saying:


Daniel 12:13 "But as for you, go {your way} to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise {again} for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Jesus positively identified the "end of the age" in Matthew 24, when He clearly connected Daniel's Prophecy with the "end of the age" the disciples had asked Him about. That's when Daniel and Job both get resurrected, at the end of the age, when Jesus Returns. When does Daniel get judged? He wasn't promised judgment, just rewards (allotted portion).

No where in Scriptures does it say that Believers (of any age) get judged in regards to their eternal destiny. It only speaks of the rewards they will receive.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 6th 2008, 10:04 PM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc.. and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?

I AM NOT LAYING A TRAP, WHAT SHOULD I THINK? I AM SERIOUS!:confused

P.S. this is not a profile of me, it is a profile of thousands of young men and women though and deserves a plan of action and training if we are to go thru the trib.

David Taylor
Oct 6th 2008, 10:21 PM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc..

Then you know it is about your relationship with Jesus that has saved you; not what type of baptism you had.
Right?




and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?



Forget 'the trib' part...Christian's have had this same type of question put to them in the 1st Century A.D. and every era and country on the earth since then....it can happen anytime.

What it comes down to, is will your love for Christ be stronger than your love for a child?

Jesus said it should be.

Mark 10:29 "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

However, all that being said, we all fall short...we all disappoint him, and we all sin.

When the Roman soldiers put the proverbial gun to Peter's head; what did Peter do?

"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"
"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"
"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"

THREE times....

Yet the Lord forgave Peter; and the Lord could forgive you as well.

His mercy and forgiveness to His own is beyond our understanding.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 10:24 PM
I'm not seeing at all from Scriptures what this has to do with the two resurrections in Rev 20 and the differences between them. I'll give you two more Scriptures to illustrate the difference:
You are mistakenly assuming that the resurrection of the "righteous" [the first resurrection] includes all believers, Rev. 20:4-6 makes it crystal clear that this resurrection is ONLY for tribulation martyrs

John 5:28-29 makes it clear that the next resurrection includes both "righteous" and "unrighteous"

this is the "second" resurrection, or the "rest of the dead" resurrection and occurs at the end of the 1000 years.




Here Jesus tells the disciples that when Jesus comes for them (and they are all dead now), they are going to heaven.Jesus says that the will be received into the place that he is preparing for them in heaven, not receive them to heaven. The place that he is preparing is the "city of New Jerusalem" which descends to "new earth" at the end of the 1000 years [Rev 21:2]

At which point - those whose names are written in the Book of Life when it's opened at the GWT are allowed to enter and forever be with the Lord. [Rev 22:17]




Jesus tells His disciples they are headed for heaven when He comes for them. Meanwhile, Job doesn't see himself in heaven when he gets resurrected. He is on the earth, looking at Jesus Himself. According to you, this is all impossible, as OT saints and the disciples would not be resurrected until the GWT judgment. When does Job get judged?Job gets judged when the "heavens pass away". When is that? When a "new earth" is declared after the 1000 years.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


The GWT judgment is for the lost. No one would escape a guilty plea as the books of their deeds would convict all...including me and you. The sentencing is done by the Book of Life. And here's another passage which doesn't fit what you are saying:

Jesus positively identified the "end of the age" in Matthew 24, when He clearly connected Daniel's Prophecy with the "end of the age" the disciples had asked Him about. That's when Daniel and Job both get resurrected, at the end of the age, when Jesus Returns. When does Daniel get judged? He wasn't promised judgment, just rewards (allotted portion).I'm not sure which translation you are using, but every one I've checked says "at the end of the days" not " the end of the age"
H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.



No where in Scriptures does it say that Believers (of any age) get judged in regards to their eternal destiny. It only speaks of the rewards they will receive.the judgment was from the foundation of the world. If you are righteous your name is written in the book of life, if you are wicked you are not. That book is opened on GWT judgment day.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. .

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 10:36 PM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc.. and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?

I AM NOT LAYING A TRAP, WHAT SHOULD I THINK? I AM SERIOUS!:confused

P.S. this is not a profile of me, it is a profile of thousands of young men and women though and deserves a plan of action and training if we are to go thru the trib.

DF1,

Renouncing Christ was done by Peter...3 times. This (tribulation period) isn't about our willingness to die for Christ. Many are doing that today...all over the world. And they have been doing it for centuries now.

God gives us Grace to deal with these worries, just as He did/does to those who become martyrs. All of us Christians here may endure much persecution before the tribulation period even starts. It's not about our physical disposition. I can make this clearer by posing a question. I am a pretribber by position. IF that position is wrong and the tribulation period starts, in what way (as your post illustrates) am I any worse off than any other Believer would be?

And the opposite shows you clearly why I state that I don't care about anyone else's end times' position. If I am right, then when Jesus comes in the air to get us, nothing else will matter at that point. Those who are His will go, no matter what their theological differences are.

I can add a little more:


Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

:)

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 10:42 PM
You are mistakenly assuming that the resurrection of the "righteous" [the first resurrection] includes all believers,....

Not assuming that at all. I gave my assessment of all the resurrections in that other thread. You must not be reading my posts. Three general resurrections remain:

Dead Church Saints
Dead OT and Tribulation saints
The dead who are lost at GWT

That's it. And, as I have already pointed out, that last resurrection is of the dead. It isn't the kind Jesus had or Paul looked for.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 10:43 PM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc.. and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?

I AM NOT LAYING A TRAP, WHAT SHOULD I THINK? I AM SERIOUS!:confused

P.S. this is not a profile of me, it is a profile of thousands of young men and women though and deserves a plan of action and training if we are to go thru the trib.

If you receive the "mark of the beast" no matter what the circumstances are, you will be damned.

If you do not receive the "mark of the beast" this means that God chose you from the beginning, and wrote your name down in the Book of Life.

It isn't your choice to make whether you receive the "mark of the beast" or not, that choice was already made for you.

At the beginning of the tribulation, God will pour a "spirit of delusion" upon the entire world so that everyone that isn't written in the "book of life" will worship the beast and receive the mark.

So you really can't fall into the circumstances that you described. You will either LOVE the Beast and gladly receive the mark, or you will HATE the Beast and won't receive the mark under any circumstances.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 10:51 PM
Not assuming that at all. I gave my assessment of all the resurrections in that other thread. You must not be reading my posts. Three general resurrections remain:

Dead Church Saints
Dead OT and Tribulation saints
The dead who are lost at GWT

That's it. And, as I have already pointed out, that last resurrection is of the dead. It isn't the kind Jesus had or Paul looked for.

I'm skimming your posts :blush: LOL

There are only two resurrections, One at Christ's coming and One at the end of the 1000 years. I think this is the problem we are having.

You need to show proof of the third - the "dead Church Saints" resurrection

I haven't seen any proof, and I've tried to answer your points thoroughly *shrugs*

There IS proof of two resurrections "The First Resurrection" and the "Rest of the Dead" resurrection

How do you reconcile the "fact" that the "dead Church Saints" will be given immortality BEFORE the Book of Life is opened and their names are discovered inside?

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 10:56 PM
...I'm not sure which translation you are using, but every one I've checked says "at the end of the days" not " the end of the age"...

NASB

In regards to that last resurrection, another passage which causes me problems with your view:


2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed...

When Jesus Returns, all the saints of all ages are there, including Believers who survived the tribulation period. Not possible in your view.

IBWatching
Oct 6th 2008, 11:03 PM
I'm skimming your posts :blush: LOL

Fine. I'll start doing the same. ;)


...How do you reconcile the "fact" that the "dead Church Saints" will be given immortality BEFORE the Book of Life is opened and their names are discovered inside?

Because they're the Bride, not merely Wedding Feast "guests". There's never a Wedding Feast before the Wedding, and there is no Wedding without a Bride.

As an aside, what does the opening of the Book of Life at the GWT have to do with names being written in it before the foundation of the world? Doesn't the fact that they are there LONG before this seem to dismiss your "immortality" concern? Nothing's impossible with God.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 11:15 PM
NASB Ok, you may want to doublecheck the "ages" thing, because I checked many versions and also an interlinear and the all said "the end of the days" which I would, of course, interpret as a strong case for GWT resurrection of OT saints such as Daniel.


In regards to that last resurrection, another passage which causes me problems with your view:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed...

When Jesus Returns, all the saints of all ages are there, including Believers who survived the tribulation period. Not possible in your view.I believe we will both arrive at different interpretations of this passage based on our differing doctrines, and I see that it leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

I would say of course that the Saints that Christ is being glorified in is the trib martyrs, and all the ones marvelling are the "bondservants" who are "alive and remaing" through the tribulation to see his coming.....I certainly wouldn't use this as a proof scripture either way though, too vague.

crush
Oct 6th 2008, 11:33 PM
Fine. I'll start doing the same. ;)
LOL


Because they're the Bride, not merely Wedding Feast "guests". There's never a Wedding Feast before the Wedding, and there is no Wedding without a Bride.There is a bride, they also aren't required to wait until GWT day to see if there names are in the book (they are without fault before the throne of God). They are also in Heaven during the Tribulation. [Rev 14:3-5] This is off topic though :(and will be a much tougher fight than the one we are engaged in I'm sure LOL (and don't worry, I'm not a cult member that believes I'm one of them or anything *sighs*)


As an aside, what does the opening of the Book of Life at the GWT have to do with names being written in it before the foundation of the world? Doesn't the fact that they are there LONG before this seem to dismiss your "immortality" concern? Nothing's impossible with God.I'm not sure what you mean? God wrote the book at the beginning, Jesus opens it and reads it at the end? Your eternal life depends on whether your name is in the book. If your name is in the book you Go to the Holy City and live forever in the presence of God, if it's not in the book you are cast in the Lake of Fire....I've listed exceptions, and scriptural reasons why some are exempt from waiting for immortality before the reading of the book, and I can list some more reasons why if you aren't satisfied....

If the "rest of the dead" resurrection is for wicked only as you seem to believe, who are being welcomed into the Holy City by the Bride and Spirit?

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Seems like peeps that were given immortality 1000 years ago wouldn't have need of any "water of life", they already drank it *shrugs*

moonglow
Oct 6th 2008, 11:47 PM
Then you know it is about your relationship with Jesus that has saved you; not what type of baptism you had.
Right?




Forget 'the trib' part...Christian's have had this same type of question put to them in the 1st Century A.D. and every era and country on the earth since then....it can happen anytime.

What it comes down to, is will your love for Christ be stronger than your love for a child?

Jesus said it should be.

Mark 10:29 "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

However, all that being said, we all fall short...we all disappoint him, and we all sin.

When the Roman soldiers put the proverbial gun to Peter's head; what did Peter do?

"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"
"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"
"No, I'm not one of Jesus' followers"

THREE times....

Yet the Lord forgave Peter; and the Lord could forgive you as well.

His mercy and forgiveness to His own is beyond our understanding.

Amen. Excellent post...

Also I think people forget the many promises given to us in the bible during times of trials...plus the super natural peace God will give us as we read about in Philippians 4:6. Instead of worrying about how we, as mere human beings will stand up to such things...we need to know God, Himself will carry us through. While our courage might fail us...He won't fail us.

Dragonfighter1...I am going going to attempt to answer your questions as you are getting so many replies it would get lose in here anyway. Plus my end time views are vastly different then many on here and would only add to the confusion. I just wanted to make a suggestion...that you ask everyone replying to state their end time views..because you are getting answers from all sorts of different end time views and will stay confused unless you know their position. Don't feel shy about asking for only replies from your end time views to try to reduce the confusion too. If you are post trib...ask for post tribbers to answer you.

God bless

third hero
Oct 7th 2008, 12:06 AM
Dragonfighter,
If you take Revelation 20 at face value, then you are truly a post-tribber. I take Revelation 20 at face value, therefore I am one. However, that does not make you an Amillennialist, as some post-tribbers are Amil. That makes you a Classical Premilllennialist, just like some of us here.

Now, I admonish you to read Matthew 24, and use a concordanence to find the scriptures in the OT that popint out every single thing that the Lord says in that chapter... and in chapter 25 as well. Jesus actually introduces nothing that hasn't already been written in these two chapters. What He does is sets those prophecies into a set order. Your task is to find those passages, and see for yourself what the Bible actually says.

Many people say many things concerning what they think the Bible means. I admonish you to believe none of them, not even me. Go to God, and ask Him to show you the truth, and you will truly be set free. Fair warning though, what He shows you, most of it you will not have been taught before. But whatever He shows you, take it to heart, and believe it.

Gods Child
Oct 7th 2008, 03:14 AM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc.. and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?

I AM NOT LAYING A TRAP, WHAT SHOULD I THINK? I AM SERIOUS!:confused

P.S. this is not a profile of me, it is a profile of thousands of young men and women though and deserves a plan of action and training if we are to go thru the trib.

Just make sure your daughter is saved and you have nothing to worry about if someone should kill her. You then would be with her forever.

Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.





*

crush
Oct 7th 2008, 03:22 AM
Just make sure your daughter is saved and you have nothing to worry about if someone should kill her. You then would be with her forever.

Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


I agree 100% Gods Child, and a laser accurate scripture to answer the question. It's a pretty chilling thought though, when you start running scenarios like this.....

Dragonfighter1
Oct 7th 2008, 11:43 AM
I agree 100% Gods Child, and a laser accurate scripture to answer the question. It's a pretty chilling thought though, when you start running scenarios like this.....


Not to bait you or anything like that at all.. but new believers aren't really saved then until they have matured to the point that they love their family members less than Jesus?

How then can we know we are saved?
else, if it is a post trib rapture then we can lose our salvation if we have accepted Jesus but still love our kids too much.

This is scary and frustrating- in one very untidy package.:help:

Marc B
Oct 7th 2008, 01:17 PM
WPM, you really have me confused. Well actually I confuse myself but you exposed it to me.. Ermmm.... Isnt rev 20:5 the first Resurrection of the dead in Christ. Yes Christ was the first of all but it does call rev 20:5 the FIRST resurrection.... of the dead in Christ

I am not trying to start an arguement. I am earnestly seeking to understand. (I truly am a slow learner)

You have it right, Christ is the first OF many brethren and revelation is speaking of the resurrection of the saints at His second advent. Satan is then bound 1000 years and later released for a short time. The Bible clearly states the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until the 1000 years are up. Read the entire chapter 20 for yourself and you'll get the full story. There is nothing mysterious about chapter 20 except to those who are spiritually blind. It is written in plain language, not parables.

moonglow
Oct 7th 2008, 01:36 PM
You have it right, Christ is the first OF many brethren and revelation is speaking of the resurrection of the saints at His second advent. Satan is then bound 1000 years and later released for a short time. The Bible clearly states the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until the 1000 years are up. Read the entire chapter 20 for yourself and you'll get the full story. There is nothing mysterious about chapter 20 except to those who are spiritually blind. It is written in plain language, not parables.

Careful there...

I wouldn't call people spiritually blind that simply lack knowledge or have a different viewpoint of scriptures..that is stepping on alot of toes and only causes hurt feelings and certainly doesn't lead the people to understanding things any better..

Revelation is written in highly symbolic language...I wouldn't call it plain language by any means. I mean honestly...if you take it that literally then you are going to be looking for a real seven headed beast coming out of the ocean!

We know for instance, satan is a spirit and no real physical chains could bind him...so even on that we need to look deeper to see what the bible says. We also know Revelation is not in order too! There are many things to take into consideration here. The bible explains itself. Alot of the things John refers too we can find echoed in the OT...

Consider this. The bible tells us we are 'dead' in our sins. We receive 'life' through Jesus Christ...this is the first rising from the dead! The first resurrection...

The thousand years also isn't literal either...AND satan was bound at the cross! He is bound by not be able to stop the spread of the gospel....nothing is said when he is bound he stops harassing us...or that sin stops like so many read into scriptures there. There isn't one word sin stops once he is bound and the world becomes a great garden for only certain saints to live on and reproduce.

Since I have gone this far I might as well go all the way...

The Great Tribulation happened in the first century..to the first century Christians. What we are waiting on now is the release of satan from the pit...the return of Christ...the resurrection of all..the Great White Throne Judgment, and so forth...

Sources:

The Adam Clarke Commentary
Matthew 24 (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)

The Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Opry/2092/Destruct.html)

The Person, Work, and Present Status of Satan (http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt015.htm)

Just to name a few.

God bless

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 01:39 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:

It is Satan that is bound for the thousand years not the antichrist.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Firstfruits

moonglow
Oct 7th 2008, 02:04 PM
Not to bait you or anything like that at all.. but new believers aren't really saved then until they have matured to the point that they love their family members less than Jesus?

How then can we know we are saved?
else, if it is a post trib rapture then we can lose our salvation if we have accepted Jesus but still love our kids too much.

This is scary and frustrating- in one very untidy package.:help:

I certainly understand your concerns...and I realize you are new on here so haven't seen other posts that address some of these similar issues. Someone has a post on here about being forced to take the mark of the beast and concerned over losing their salvation on that.

I think its pretty clear that being forced into either this or what you have brought up would mean nothing. Its forcing something onto you against your will and not a true devotion to the beast. So basically that means it wouldn't count! And satan would know this. He tried to get Jesus Himself to bow down to him but it has to be done with freewill! Its no different then us freely choosing to love God..that is why God gave us freewill to start with. He could have made us all puppets with no freewill and no minds of our own and created us to love Him no matter what! Much like a pull string doll that says I love you.

Satan wants willing followers...saying sure don't shoot my child and I will worship you, means nothing when our hearts are still with God. The thing is no matter what an antichrist does he (if you believe the AC will be a single person) cannot control our thoughts! A person could be forced with a gun to their head to bow down to a statue but be praising God in their hearts!!

I also want you to consider this...if you were truly backed into a corner with your daughter...which would you want for her? To physically or spiritually die? If there were no other choices...

In the first century the Christians were slaughtered by Nero whom I believe was the beast of Revelation. Whole families were forced into arenas to be killed by wild beast. There wasn't any worship me or die, or worship me or I will kill your children. First there were too many Christians to be messing with that. They all died together and many were singing praises to God before death!

Now were they some sort of super humans that had super human courage and faith? The bible tells us its GOD who gives us our faith! He gives us our courage! He held them up through this. They saw HIM...not what was about to happen to them. No mere human being could do this on their own...He saw them through it.

The fear you are having isn't from God for the bible tells us He does not give us the spirit of fear:

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.


He gave you your daughter. He trusts you to be a good father to here. She lives and breaths because of Him. He helps you to provide for her in every way...right? We can do nothing without Him...nothing! So why do you think He would leave us alone to deal with something like this on our own all of the sudden?

He wouldn't.

Trust Him.

God bless

Marc B
Oct 8th 2008, 12:47 AM
Sorry if I come across harshly sometimes folks, I just don't mince words where God is concerned, must be a zeal thing. I just hate to see people get mislead.
Moonglow I was with you right up until you said the tribulation already happened. You're right about the book of Revelation being mostly symbolic but not all of it is.
If it did and the 1000 year reign is now in effect then where on Earth is Jesus ruling with a rod of iron and rebuking many nations from afar? What about the beating of swords into ploughshares?

third hero
Oct 8th 2008, 03:32 AM
OK, I am not as well versed or smart as either of you..(and I appreciate your patient effort with me -BOTH of you). But I do have a fear/problem...

Lets say for the sake of this singular post that: Once saved always saved is not up for dispute (maybe later if need be). OK. Then if I am saved, walked the aisle, MEANT IT, got Sprinkled, and/or immersed and meant it, got smitten in the spiri, and spoke in tongues etc.. and was as sincere a christian as Paul etc.. and I end up in the tribulation, and someone(the Antichrists police) holds a gun to my daughters head and says "renounce Christ or I will blow her head off," and lets just say I am a very ignorant person, not well versed in scripture....say 3 months in Christ, and also young, emotional and easily scared,... and I renounce Christ because I love my daughter and I don't understand whats going on... and I let them put the mark on me cause otherwise my baby will be brutalized and I am crying cause no one seems to care and noone is there to encourage me.....

am I going to hell...? Have I lost salvation?

I AM NOT LAYING A TRAP, WHAT SHOULD I THINK? I AM SERIOUS!:confused

P.S. this is not a profile of me, it is a profile of thousands of young men and women though and deserves a plan of action and training if we are to go thru the trib.

I am going to answer this question dragonfighter, and you are not going to like it. Yes, you would suffer the Lake if you took that Mark. If your daughter's head is blown off, then she would have died because of the Gospel of Christ, and she would be counted as a Tribulation saint, inheriting eternal life at least 1000 years BEFORE judgment day.

The question at that point would be, if you loved your duaghter, would you allow her to die? IF you lived her, you would, and then take you place as a Tribulation saint.

I know that this is not a trap, but the answer to the question is what will cause most "believers" to leave the faith, because they will believe that God is a cruel God, who would rather see us die than to live on this planet.

third hero
Oct 8th 2008, 03:43 AM
I can not believe that I am reading posts that actually say that even if you take the Mark, you will be ok. That is the epitomy of unacceptability.

You use the "Peter denied Christ 3 times" excuse, as though it is a justifiable reason to completely disobey Lord Jesus? WOW! We are in worse shape than I thought!

Question. Did Peter have to choose between Jesus and the AntiChrist? Did he have to either say that he was with the Lord or die?

Seriously, Jesus even warned Peter that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat. Jesus prayed on behalf of Peter, that Satan would not.

MOREOVER, THERE WAS NO MARK ASSOCIATED WITH PETER'S QUESTIONING. There was no prophecy saying that if Peter denied Christ, that he would LOSE the salvation that God had intended for. This prophecy:

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. -Revelation 14:9-11


...makes it very clear what happens to ALL who take the Mark. Circumstances do not matter. What was present for Peter and all of the believers BEFORE that time DOES NOT MATTER! WHAT ARE YOU ALL THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said this before, and I will shout it again:

LET THE SCRIPTURES BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR! NO MATTER WHO HE IS!

Dragonfighter1
Oct 8th 2008, 11:34 AM
OK. This thread is going along interesting lines. I am learning a lot and coming up with lots of thoughts and questions that are helping me grow in comprehension and planning for possible future actions...

Now then, I really enjoyed the most recent half dozen or so posts, it brings us (temporarily to the question I asked us all to avoid earlier. So, in the context of the most recent set of posts,: can we lose our salvation?

Apparently yes. Under the following circumstances: 1./ Post trib actually happens. 2./ I am alive in post trib. 3./ I take the mark (whether in ignorance or fear doesn't matter)

Let me say, VERY carefully... I am not baiting anyone with this post, NOR am I saying this is truth. I am posing the question because it fits logically in the most recent set of threads and the whole subject matter is getting VERY interesting.

Please comment

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 01:50 PM
OK. This thread is going along interesting lines. I am learning a lot and coming up with lots of thoughts and questions that are helping me grow in comprehension and planning for possible future actions...

Now then, I really enjoyed the most recent half dozen or so posts, it brings us (temporarily to the question I asked us all to avoid earlier. So, in the context of the most recent set of posts,: can we lose our salvation?

Apparently yes. Under the following circumstances: 1./ Post trib actually happens. 2./ I am alive in post trib. 3./ I take the mark (whether in ignorance or fear doesn't matter)

Let me say, VERY carefully... I am not baiting anyone with this post, NOR am I saying this is truth. I am posing the question because it fits logically in the most recent set of threads and the whole subject matter is getting VERY interesting.

Please comment


Taking the mark means NOTHING and this was all addressed on another thread here that might interest you: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=141059

This member asked the same thing..can we lose our salvation if we take the mark and I will tell you what I told him...NO!

Every single scriptures regarding the mark also includes worship of the beast.

Having someone hold you down, knock you out or whatever and putting a mark on you or a chip in you as some think that will be the mark of the beast will mean nothing without worship of the beast.

[B]Revelation 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 15:1-3
So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It also clearly states in scriptures only those who do NOT have their names written in the book of life will be deceived by the beast and worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So you won't be tricked or deceived or forced....if you renounce Christ...more then likely your name wasn't in the book of life to start with. So you can't lose your salvation...you never had it to start with...and sadly there are alot of Christians like that...

P.S. I do not believe in OSAS so that is not influencing my stance on this...just going by what the bible says is all.

The bible also states those that refuse to worship the image of the beast will be killed. Not a thing about them being forced or tortured into doing it...

Revelation 13

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 01:56 PM
I can not believe that I am reading posts that actually say that even if you take the Mark, you will be ok. That is the epitomy of unacceptability.

You use the "Peter denied Christ 3 times" excuse, as though it is a justifiable reason to completely disobey Lord Jesus? WOW! We are in worse shape than I thought!

Question. Did Peter have to choose between Jesus and the AntiChrist? Did he have to either say that he was with the Lord or die?

Seriously, Jesus even warned Peter that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat. Jesus prayed on behalf of Peter, that Satan would not.

MOREOVER, THERE WAS NO MARK ASSOCIATED WITH PETER'S QUESTIONING. There was no prophecy saying that if Peter denied Christ, that he would LOSE the salvation that God had intended for. This prophecy:

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. -Revelation 14:9-11


...makes it very clear what happens to ALL who take the Mark. Circumstances do not matter. What was present for Peter and all of the believers BEFORE that time DOES NOT MATTER! WHAT ARE YOU ALL THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said this before, and I will shout it again:

LET THE SCRIPTURES BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR! NO MATTER WHO HE IS!


Sorry dude but scriptures say the mark AND the worship of the beast always go together....there is no taking the mark without worship...read the scriptures I just posted to Dragon above...scripture is plain on this as you said, but you are missing that one important key in scripture..mark and worship together!

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Oct 8th 2008, 02:07 PM
Moonglow...be patient with me on this question please.

What if I am saved as stated in my earlier post, and then because of greed, fear or some SELFISH motive i freely choose to take the mark and worship the beast? (Now remember.. for the sake of this question- I WAS a sincere saved person before doing this.)

I'm not sure its possible to have been sincere and then take the mark but I ask the question for opinion, scripture, and interpretation. Please don't anyone get offended by the question as I am really trying to grasp this not cause trouble.

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 02:31 PM
Moonglow...be patient with me on this question please.

What if I am saved as stated in my earlier post, and then because of greed, fear or some SELFISH motive i freely choose to take the mark and worship the beast? (Now remember.. for the sake of this question- I WAS a sincere saved person before doing this.)

I'm not sure its possible to have been sincere and then take the mark but I ask the question for opinion, scripture, and interpretation. Please don't anyone get offended by the question as I am really trying to grasp this not cause trouble.

Doesn't bother me you ask these questions...they have been asked alot on here..especially lately! So many thinking we are on the verge of the tribulation...

Scripture answers plainly on all of this...
First lets address the fear part..

First...who saves you? You or God? God of course.
Will He just let you slip away during trials or tribulations?

Romans 8
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Fox book of Martyrs shows the power of God working in those that have suffered and died for His sake over the years. They didn't magically come up with this courage all by themselves! God gave them the peace and the strength to get through it. I don't know why everyone thinks God would just abandon them to deal with any beast/AC on their own ..in a time they needed Him the most and have to endure this on their own.

This is the time we lean the most on God. Of course we need to do our part...and pray! Talk to Him...don't sit there waiting for Him to make us feel better. Paul reminds us to pray always for those in chains for Christ...

Now the second part of your question..if you take the mark due to greed, or other selfish reason how can you claim you were a sincere Christian to start with? The bible shows us who the true sincere Christians are...

Galatians 5

19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

If you are following your sinful desires and allow greed or other selfish things to take over and renounce Christ and worship the beast's image and take the mark...as I said, your name was probably not even written in the book of life to start with...

The sign of those letting the Holy Spirit work in them is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

If you have peace and love then greed, fear or other things won't allow you to abandon Christ...which is what it would take in order to receive the mark and worship the image of the beast.

If this is a future event ...this will be a time when the luke warm Christians are separated from the true Christians for sure! Those who are Christians in name only, they won't have peace in their heart and no real love for Christ...looking at them cross eyed will probably cause them to fold...but as the bible says, only those who's names are not in the book of life will be deceived!

Honestly I see the separation of the sheeps and goats going on all the time and have my whole life...those Christians in name only aren't really fooling anyone except maybe themselves...

God bless

larry2
Oct 8th 2008, 03:00 PM
Dear Dragonfighter1, where in scripture do you ever read that any of the Church will be here when the antichrist is present? The elect or remnant that are believers after the Church is gone will go through that part of the tribulation; the Church having been taken to heaven will already be with Christ.

You are confusing the resurrection of the wicked dead in Revelation 20:5 that live again after the millennium, with the righteous dead that are caught up to reign with Christ at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:4. And even then there will be nations being witnessed to during the millennium becoming believers, but they are not the Church; they are the kingdom on the earth. Another study :)

As for your salvation I add the following excerpt from a pamphlet I have written I may post later, and you just make up your own mind.

Once I'm saved or born of God, can I still go to hell if I mess up? Consider the following.

John 6.44. "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:27-29. "My sheep (Believers in Christ) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (Notice here that we've been given to Jesus by the Father)

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the above verses, we have been given eternal life (That is God's own life without beginning or end from the moment we're born again), and Jesus says He will not let any one take us out of his hand. The Father will not let anyone take you out of His hand, and the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption. How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

May God convince your heart through His word in Jesus' name.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 8th 2008, 03:02 PM
Thank you moonglow.

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 03:10 PM
Thank you moonglow.

Sure. Keep in mind I can relate to your concerns. I have a son. He is just 12..I used to torment myself with the same type of worries you have. I no longer have them..I don't know why but I don't. While I believe the Trib is in the past we still have to deal with satan coming out of the pit! And I image things will be truly nasty for that short period of time...but for whatever reason I just don't have any fears on this anymore. While life tosses us about all the time when it comes to things of God..I have peace (and yes I know I should have peace in my life too...still working on that! lol).

We are all a work in progress...:)

God bless

larry2
Oct 8th 2008, 04:46 PM
Quoting moonglow - The Great Tribulation happened in the first century..to the first century Christians. What we are waiting on now is the release of satan from the pit...the return of Christ...the resurrection of all..the Great White Throne Judgment, and so forth...

Response - If as you say the tribulation was in the first century, then according to the following two verses Satan should have been released in approximately 1100 AD

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 8th 2008, 07:56 PM
:o uh oh :o

:pray: now what :pray:

:hmm: is it possible the times of the gentiles (the mystery) has extended the period of Satan's imprisonment? :hmm:

Is the 1000 yrs figurative? (I don't think so though).

hmmmm... no easy answers is there.

(I hit the big red button at staples and it said it was easy-it wasn't):rofl:

larry2
Oct 8th 2008, 08:22 PM
Quoting Dragonfighter1 - is it possible the times of the gentiles (the mystery) has extended the period of Satan's imprisonment?

Response - It seems you are not as ignorant of this subject as you say :)

Did you possibly read the response I gave prior to this one near the end of page 4 concerning your salvation?

crush
Oct 8th 2008, 08:41 PM
Dear Dragonfighter1, where in scripture do you ever read that any of the Church will be here when the antichrist is present? The elect or remnant that are believers after the Church is gone will go through that part of the tribulation; the Church having been taken to heaven will already be with Christ.

That doesn't make too much sense - what's the difference between a believer and a member of the "Church"?


You are confusing the resurrection of the wicked dead in Revelation 20:5 that live again after the millennium, with the righteous dead that are caught up to reign with Christ at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:4. And even then there will be nations being witnessed to during the millennium becoming believers, but they are not the Church; they are the kingdom on the earth. Another study :)The righteous/unrighteous are resurrected at the same resurrection, at the same "hour" [John 5:28-29]. Some are resurrected to life, and some to damnation, but this doesn't in anyway mean that these are two separate resurrections separated by a time period of 1000 years.



John 6.44. "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."Nice scripture - all believers will be raised up at "the last day" not some "unknown" hour before the Great Tribulation....

Some people get resurrected or receive their rewards/judgment early, but this is specific to the Great Tribulation. Everyone else receives their reward/punishment at the GWT judgment day.

Jesus has to determine whether everyone who is resurrected from the dead will receive eternal judgment or reward. The simplest way to do this is to open the "book of life" and see if their name is in it. This occurs at the end of the world [as we know it], after the 1000 year reign of Christ, at the Great White throne judgement day. This is how almost everyone that has ever lived will be judged.

Here are the groups that get the "early reward/punishment", at/before Christ's second coming and the criteria by which they are judged


1) the 144,000 Jews - they are found "without fault before the throne of God" [Rev 14:5]

criteria they are judged by - perfection

2) the tribulation martyrs

criteria they are judged by - having the testimony of Jesus, not worshiping the Beast or taking the mark, being faithful to the end.

During the Great Tribulation we are told that everyone that worships the Beast and takes the mark is "not" written in the "book of life" [Rev 13:8]. So the "book of life" doesn't have to be opened to determine whether the Beast worshippers names are in it, we know ahead of time that they are not. Knowing who's name is "not" in the book also helps us determine who's names "are" in the book during this time however, and the martyrs, not taking the mark AND remaining faithful until death "are" in the book so they are qualified to receive their reward "early"...... if they remain faithful 'til the end, which they do.

3) the "bondservants" of the Lord - those whom remain without worshiping the Beast or Receiving the Mark, through the Great Tribulation, until Christ's second coming

criteria they are judged by - [Mat 24:46-51] doing good/evil at the exact time of Christ's return (the separation of the sheep and goats)

4) Beast Worshipers - cast into the Lake of Fire (1000 years early) [Rev 14:11]

criteria they are judged by - taking the "mark of the beast"

5) the Beast and False Prophet - cast into the Lake of Fire (1000 years early)

criteria they are judged by - *shrugs*

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 10:57 PM
Quoting moonglow - The Great Tribulation happened in the first century..to the first century Christians. What we are waiting on now is the release of satan from the pit...the return of Christ...the resurrection of all..the Great White Throne Judgment, and so forth...

Response - If as you say the tribulation was in the first century, then according to the following two verses Satan should have been released in approximately 1100 AD

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

No its not literal. Revelation is highly symbolic. So far I haven't found anything to suggest it is literal!

What do you think this passage says?

2 Peter 3:7-9
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

Much of the imagery and wording John uses can be traced right back to the imagery in the OT...

Psalm 90
A prayer of Moses, the man of God.
1 Lord, through all the generations
you have been our home!
2 Before the mountains were born,
before you gave birth to the earth and the world,
from beginning to end, you are God.

3 You turn people back to dust, saying,
“Return to dust, you mortals!”
4 For you, a thousand years are as a passing day,
as brief as a few night hours

Knowing the OT well actually helps us understand Revelation and what John is talking about. I don't think any part of the bible should be studied in a void. The whole bible works together and explains itself.

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Oct 8th 2008, 11:58 PM
Quoting Dragonfighter1 - is it possible the times of the gentiles (the mystery) has extended the period of Satan's imprisonment?

Response - It seems you are not as ignorant of this subject as you say :)

Did you possibly read the response I gave prior to this one near the end of page 4 concerning your salvation?


Ignorant? no, you are correct,
unlearned and inexperienced? perhaps yes.

I spend 3.5 years at Liberty Baptist College (now Liberty U.) and was immersed in the pretrib position and eternal security.

I have since come to question (sincerely) the pre-trib position though I do not yet fully claim a strong post position as I have yet to get a good grasp on all the scriptures and the correct interpretation. I have not changed on the One saved position... I raised the question as it seemed that it may be a genuine issue for discussion... after all... IF (big if) we are to go thru the times of the antichrist then taking the mark (if it can be taken by real christians) would put two scriptures at odds: The one saved verses, and the if you take the mark you are damned verses. That was why I raised the question.

As you can tell I am not trying to create any discord among sincere believers. I know there are many valid God fearing believers that think one way or the other. The scriptures they use and the cogency of their explanations is extremely insightful. I really like it.:)

bennie
Oct 9th 2008, 01:34 AM
[quote=moonglow;1817294]No its not literal. Revelation is highly symbolic. So far I haven't found anything to suggest it is literal!


do you believe the whole of revelation is simbolic???
yes there are some symbolism in it, but surely not all of it is symbolic.

the great red dragon in rev is symbolic. but the symbol is explained later.

is the trumpets symbolized or litteral??
rev8: 7The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.e first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

if the trumpets are symbolic, what are they symbols off?

is it a symbolic angel?
is it symbolic hail??
is it a symbolic earth??
is it symbolic green grass?? etc etc

Revelation i is quite letteral.

bennie

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 02:10 AM
Quoting me - Dear Dragonfighter1, where in scripture do you ever read that any of the Church will be here when the antichrist is present? The elect or remnant that are believers after the Church is gone will go through that part of the tribulation; the Church having been taken to heaven will already be with Christ.

Quoting Crush - That doesn't make too much sense - what's the difference between a believer and a member of the "Church"?

Response - There is the Kingdom of heaven, and an earthly kingdom as noted below, and an eternal kingdom. The Church will be ready when Jesus comes to meet them in the air.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Here is an earthly kingdom.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When Christ has finished with the Church, He says in Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Then we see John caught up into heaven in Revelation Chapter 4 and he sees things that will come hereafter.

Then will come what is know as the great commission in Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: In that day nations will be witnessed to and accept Christ. But they will not be caught into heaven; they remain on the earth.

There is catching up of the Church in its own order, and then there will be those who endure to the end that will preach the gospel of the kingdom.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Quoting Crush - The righteous/unrighteous are resurrected at the same resurrection, at the same "hour" [John 5:28-29]. Some are resurrected to life, and some to damnation, but this doesn't in anyway mean that these are two separate resurrections separated by a time period of 1000 years.

Response - Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Response - Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I am not convinced these resurrected will have their glorified bodies until the last day. For instance, when the righteous die now is to be present with the Lord, but their bodies remain in the grave. (2 Corinthians 5:8). The souls of the unrighteous are in hell, but their bodies remain in the grave or the sea.

Quoting Crush - Some people get resurrected or receive their rewards/judgment early, but this is specific to the Great Tribulation. Everyone else receives their reward/punishment at the GWT judgment day.

Response - 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. When does it happen? - I agree it is at the end of the thousand years. As for some having their reward earlier we see the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:4 with crowns on their heads.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Quoting Crush - Jesus has to determine whether everyone who is resurrected from the dead will receive eternal judgment or reward. The simplest way to do this is to open the "book of life" and see if their name is in it. This occurs at the end of the world [as we know it], after the 1000 year reign of Christ, at the Great White throne judgment day. This is how almost everyone that has ever lived will be judged.

Response - Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. God knows the hairs on our head, He knew our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. He doesn't have to check to see if they are there, He proves to them they are not there.

And that word "world" is also interpreted as "Age." In other words until the end of an age, or a certain period of time.

Thanks for the comments in Jesus' name -

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 02:29 AM
Quoting moonglow - What do you think this passage says? 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Response - Exactly what it says. :) Nah, I'll try to do better than that. This is just my thoughts and not scriptural proof of anything. In Verse 9 slackness is being talked about, and God's time is on an eternal plane without end, and He will do what He has promised regardless of what men think. One other thought I have on this whether it was told me at one time or not, I can't remember, but the Day of the Lord is a thousand years; we shall reign with Him a thousand years, etc. I do not believe with so many references to the thousand years there is error in it, or that it is figurative only.

I'm not into partial Preterist or Reformed teaching. I believe the things in Revelation are to come yet including the rapture. And then I do not know all their teaching on this subject; I may agree with bits of it.

Thank you moonglow in Jesus' name -

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 02:40 AM
Dear Dragonfighter1, I enjoyed your reply. I hope to bring out my beliefs on the rapture in the future in a thread of its own, but to give a little insight into them, I believe all the church will be gone prior to the revealing of the antichrist at the middle of the week of the tribulation, though in segments as we see the twenty-four elders with Jesus in heaven when He gets His own throne, the great multitude coming out of great tribulation, and the 144,000 caught up unto God in heaven. These different companies comprise the total Church, but they are seen arriving there at different times.

God bless your study of His word in Jesus' name -

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 02:53 AM
[quote=moonglow;1817294]No its not literal. Revelation is highly symbolic. So far I haven't found anything to suggest it is literal!


do you believe the whole of revelation is simbolic???
yes there are some symbolism in it, but surely not all of it is symbolic.

the great red dragon in rev is symbolic. but the symbol is explained later.

is the trumpets symbolized or litteral??
rev8: 7The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.e first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

if the trumpets are symbolic, what are they symbols off?

is it a symbolic angel?
is it symbolic hail??
is it a symbolic earth??
is it symbolic green grass?? etc etc

Revelation i is quite letteral.

bennie

I kind of have the feeling you aren't open to hearing much of what I might have to say on this...which is ok...God bless.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 02:56 AM
Quoting moonglow - What do you think this passage says? 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Response - Exactly what it says. :) Nah, I'll try to do better than that. This is just my thoughts and not scriptural proof of anything. In Verse 9 slackness is being talked about, and God's time is on an eternal plane without end, and He will do what He has promised regardless of what men think. One other thought I have on this whether it was told me at one time or not, I can't remember, but the Day of the Lord is a thousand years; we shall reign with Him a thousand years, etc. I do not believe with so many references to the thousand years there is error in it, or that it is figurative only.

I'm not into partial Preterist or Reformed teaching. I believe the things in Revelation are to come yet including the rapture. And then I do not know all their teaching on this subject; I may agree with bits of it.

Thank you moonglow in Jesus' name -

I was raised pre-trib rapture...no longer hold that view after doing alot of studying on it myself. Its fine to have a different view point on this...no problem. :)

I wanted to tell you that you can hit the quote button in the posters box you want to quote...or copy and paste like you did what they said, then highlight it with your arrow then click on the tab above that will quote it. Its next to the square with the little mountain in it. That way you don't have to do so much work like you are having to do now.

God bless

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 09:27 AM
Sorry dude but scriptures say the mark AND the worship of the beast always go together....there is no taking the mark without worship...read the scriptures I just posted to Dragon above...scripture is plain on this as you said, but you are missing that one important key in scripture..mark and worship together!

God bless

Take the mark, and see what I am talking about. The taking of the Mark is the SAME as worshipping the beast.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:9-10

Really, semantics in the presence of such a powerful prophecy is the definition of foolishness. Do you think that you can take the mark and NOT worship the beast?

Take another look at this scripture.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:17

Notice that the Mark itself is the name of the Beast? The Mark itself has the same connotation as the Seal of God, which brands those who take it as property of the one whose name they wear, or the number of his name, or the mark. The Mark itself is thoroughly connected to the Beast in every way, so that it is enough for god to say to thosee foolish enough to take that damning mark that they have lost their salvation. It would equate to the Jews saying, "we have no king but Ceasar". It is an outright denunciation of God and the Lord Jesus.

To say that one can "half-heartly" take the mark without losing their salvation, especially in the light of Revelation 14:9-11 is nothing short of heresy. I said it twice, and I'll say it again.

"Let God's Word be true, and all men liars!

You know, the term, tempt not the Lord comes to mind when dealing with this issue here. You can take the Mark if you want, but know that when you do, what you think you had will indeed be lost.

Consider this:

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and them which worshipped his image.

Does the vial of God's wrath affect all, or only those who worship the Beast? No. It affects those who have the Mark, irregardless of whether they meant it or not. The choice itself seals their fate. Here's another example:

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and [U]they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. -Revelation 16:11-12

Who has the sores, and who is affected by all of these plagues? Is it only those who worship the beast? No. According to the previous verses that I quoted, the ones who wear the mark join their fate. There is no difference.

Jesus made Himself very clear. No one can serve two masters. In the same manner, no one can wear two seals. Either you are for the Lord or you are against Him. The Mark is the dividing line. take the Mark, and you are against the Lord. Refuse the Mark, and you are with the Lord, and the promise found in Revelation 20:4-6 belongs to you. This is yet another reason why the Lord said that you can not serve God and Mammon, which meant money.

I am sorry, but I can not accept anyone even attempting to justify taking the only mark that will rob you of what God wants you to have, salvation. There is a reason why the scriptures says if anyone takes the Mark, what would happen to them. It is my advice to you, moonglow, to understand this and accept it. God is not going to change just because you do not want to lose the luxuries of this world.

crush
Oct 9th 2008, 09:39 AM
To say that one can "half-heartly" take the mark without losing their salvation, especially in the light of Revelation 14:9-11 is nothing short of heresy. I said it twice, and I'll say it again.
Preach it Brother! :agree:

DIZZY
Oct 9th 2008, 09:39 AM
Think about Hebrews 9:28, and then apply how it shows Jesus appears at the time of salvation.
What is said in the first verse of Rev. 19?
salvation

So make the time of Jesus appears as placed at the start of Rev. 19, then soon comes the marriage and the saints get their attire that they will come later from heaven wearing.

See how "armies" come down after the marriage?
armies - as in plural
but the saints won't all go fight at Armageddon

one army - the great tribulation martyrs won't fight because they have already overcome the beast

thus - they will "live and reign"
the other army of saints - will live, fight, reign
"they sat"
(To understand this properly - we need to let chapter 19 show us the army that went to the battle.

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying...salvation..."
. (Jesus appeared) - rapture time
19:2
"For....he hath judged the great whore city, which did corrupt the earth..hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
. (mystery, Babylon is punished)
The great tribulation corrupt the earth city has been taken down.
19:3
"And the four and twenty elders...worshipped God..."
. (notice this is after the time of the 7th trumpet - as that 7th trumpet begins with the 24 elders as still seated from their time of chapter 4)
19:5
"...all ye his servants, and ye that fear him both small and great."
. (Rev. 11:18 - fear Him - both small and great- 7th trumpet)
19:7
"..the marriage of the Lamb is come...his wfe hath made herself ready."
19:8
"And to her was granted...fine linen, clean and white...saints."
19:11
"...heaven opened..."
19:14
"And the armies [which were] in heaven followed...clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

19:20
"...his army."
20:4
"And...they sat..."

Hi vinsight4u8,
I think you will find throughout the book of Revelation from chapter four onwards the twenty four elders are not sitting all the time they are up and down depending on what is happening, and they are on their faces worshiping God.


Revelation 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: (elders fall down and worship)

Revelation 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

Revelation 5:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
[ Worthy Is the Lamb ] Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (elders fall down before the Lamb)
Revelation 5:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
Revelation 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. (elders fall down and worship)
Revelation 7:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=7&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
(elders still bowing down in worship)
Revelation 7:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=7&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
Revelation 11:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
(elders eated once again)
Revelation 14:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=14&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 19:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” (elders fall down and worship God once again)
So the elders did not stay seated from chapter four, they were up and down worshiping God.

DIZZY
Oct 9th 2008, 09:55 AM
Dear Dragonfighter1, I enjoyed your reply. I hope to bring out my beliefs on the rapture in the future in a thread of its own, but to give a little insight into them, I believe all the church will be gone prior to the revealing of the antichrist at the middle of the week of the tribulation, though in segments as we see the twenty-four elders with Jesus in heaven when He gets His own throne, the great multitude coming out of great tribulation, and the 144,000 caught up unto God in heaven. These different companies comprise the total Church, but they are seen arriving there at different times.

God bless your study of His word in Jesus' name -

Hi Larry2,

What makes you say the 144,000 are caught up unto God in heaven?

crush
Oct 9th 2008, 10:10 AM
Quoting me - Dear Dragonfighter1, where in scripture do you ever read that any of the Church will be here when the antichrist is present? The elect or remnant that are believers after the Church is gone will go through that part of the tribulation; the Church having been taken to heaven will already be with Christ.
Hmm, that's kind of a rip-off don't you think? The Church gets split up, some get to go party in heaven and some get condemned to suffer through great tribulation. I've personally never seen this in scripture.


Response -
There is the Kingdom of heaven, and an earthly kingdom as noted below, and an eternal kingdom. The Church will be ready when Jesus comes to meet them in the air.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Here is an earthly kingdom.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When Christ has finished with the Church, He says in Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Then we see John caught up into heaven in Revelation Chapter 4 and he sees things that will come hereafter.Warning of judgments and promises of rewards to the Church is not the same as execution of judgment and giving of rewards.


Then will come what is know as the great commission in Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: In that day nations will be witnessed to and accept Christ. But they will not be caught into heaven; they remain on the earth.Yes, I agree that the gospel is finally preached immediately following Satan's casting out of heaven. But it is preached by the people that were given the "great commission", which is all believers, not just a select few.


There is catching up of the Church in its own order, and then there will be those who endure to the end that will preach the gospel of the kingdom.There is no "catching up of the church" mentioned anywhere in scriptures. There is a resurrection of the martyrs (the first resurrection) and a "catching up" of the faithful that are alive and remain at Christ's second coming (not third).


Response -
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Response - Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I am not convinced these resurrected will have their glorified bodies until the last day. For instance, when the righteous die now is to be present with the Lord, but their bodies remain in the grave. (2 Corinthians 5:8). The souls of the unrighteous are in hell, but their bodies remain in the grave or the sea.Funny, because these are the only ones mentioned as living again (being resurrected) and reigning with Christ for 1000 years....Church is not mentioned


Response - 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.Christ has been given All judgment [Joh 5:22] This would include both post-tribulation judgment of the wicked/reward for faithful and also GWT judgment day


Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. When does it happen? - I agree it is at the end of the thousand years. As for some having their reward earlier we see the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:4 with crowns on their heads.We aren't told who the elders are, and there are, after all, only 24 of them. I hope this isn't the total "remnant of the Church", raptured up pre-trib and rewarded LOL I'm assuming that they are heavenly creatures of origin similar to the 4 living creatures and angels etc. Since they appear in heaven before the 144,000, which are the first men redeemed from the earth.




Response -
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. God knows the hairs on our head, He knew our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. He doesn't have to check to see if they are there, He proves to them they are not there.I'm not really sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing LOL

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 10:18 AM
WHat Larry2 is displaying is the fallacy of relying on the word "church" in scripture. The "church" in the Nt is only the gathering of believers. Whereas the believer himself (PC alert,"or herself") isn ot characterized as "thre church", but rather the saint.

Notice that in Revelation, the term saint pops up in the most inappropriate places, like right in chapter 13 as the recipients of the war that is being waged by the Beast. If the "church" is raptured, then who are those "saints" who are being warred against in chapter 13?

Moreover, who are those who are blessed when they die from the moment the Great Tribulation starts onward, as mentioned in chapter 14?

ANd again, who are those Tribulation saints in chapter 20:4-6, if the church is raptured before the Great Tribulation?

And another thing. Where are the raptured church in Revelation? We see the Tribulation saints in 20:4-6, we see that the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the last day (verses 11-15), but there is no mention of the "raptured church" in not only that chapter, but in the proceeding chapters. Where are they? Did they disappear? Or did they not exist at all?

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 12:39 PM
The last rapture of the church during the tribulation is seen in Revelation 12:5. "And she (a great wonder in heaven) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Who is this man child? It is not Jesus; He is on His throne already in Revelation 4:2. We're given a view of them in Revelation 14:1. "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 01:38 PM
Take the mark, and see what I am talking about. The taking of the Mark is the SAME as worshipping the beast.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:9-10

Really, semantics in the presence of such a powerful prophecy is the definition of foolishness. Do you think that you can take the mark and NOT worship the beast?

Take another look at this scripture.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:17

Notice that the Mark itself is the name of the Beast? The Mark itself has the same connotation as the Seal of God, which brands those who take it as property of the one whose name they wear, or the number of his name, or the mark. The Mark itself is thoroughly connected to the Beast in every way, so that it is enough for god to say to thosee foolish enough to take that damning mark that they have lost their salvation. It would equate to the Jews saying, "we have no king but Ceasar". It is an outright denunciation of God and the Lord Jesus.

To say that one can "half-heartly" take the mark without losing their salvation, especially in the light of Revelation 14:9-11 is nothing short of heresy. I said it twice, and I'll say it again.

"Let God's Word be true, and all men liars!

You know, the term, tempt not the Lord comes to mind when dealing with this issue here. You can take the Mark if you want, but know that when you do, what you think you had will indeed be lost.

Consider this:

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and them which worshipped his image.

Does the vial of God's wrath affect all, or only those who worship the Beast? No. It affects those who have the Mark, irregardless of whether they meant it or not. The choice itself seals their fate. Here's another example:

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and [U]they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. -Revelation 16:11-12

Who has the sores, and who is affected by all of these plagues? Is it only those who worship the beast? No. According to the previous verses that I quoted, the ones who wear the mark join their fate. There is no difference.

Jesus made Himself very clear. No one can serve two masters. In the same manner, no one can wear two seals. Either you are for the Lord or you are against Him. The Mark is the dividing line. take the Mark, and you are against the Lord. Refuse the Mark, and you are with the Lord, and the promise found in Revelation 20:4-6 belongs to you. This is yet another reason why the Lord said that you can not serve God and Mammon, which meant money.

I am sorry, but I can not accept anyone even attempting to justify taking the only mark that will rob you of what God wants you to have, salvation. There is a reason why the scriptures says if anyone takes the Mark, what would happen to them. It is my advice to you, moonglow, to understand this and accept it. God is not going to change just because you do not want to lose the luxuries of this world.

third hero...why do you have to be so offensive by assuming things I never said? I mean really where do I say I plan on taking the mark so I can enjoy things of this world? Where do I even imply such a thing? That was extremely rude and a low bow...and frankly it made me angry to be falsely accused like that. You don't get people to listen to you when you make false accusation you know....you just turn them away from listening to you.

I have been saying the exact same thing you just said in this post! The two always go together! I only said it differently then you did.

The subject of this thread was concern a person could be forced to take the mark either through threats against themselves or family and I repeatly said the two go together as you just stated. A person cannot take the mark and not worship the beast's image...the exact same thing you just said in this post!

The post of yours I objected too was the one where you said getting the mark for whatever reason damned a person to hell..you made NO mention of the worship of the beast's image in that one. So if a person was knocked out and the mark put upon them...by that one post of yours, it was tough luck you are going to hell. That is how I took your post and why I objected to it because, as you just said in this post, the two have to go together.

We are saying the same thing! I agree with you! ok...

P.S. When you post in monster size letters about men being liars and God's word is true...while that verse is correct you should realize that can be applied to you too....

God bless

slightlypuzzled
Oct 9th 2008, 01:54 PM
Take the mark, and see what I am talking about. The taking of the Mark is the SAME as worshipping the beast.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:9-10

Really, semantics in the presence of such a powerful prophecy is the definition of foolishness. Do you think that you can take the mark and NOT worship the beast?

Take another look at this scripture.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:17

Notice that the Mark itself is the name of the Beast? The Mark itself has the same connotation as the Seal of God, which brands those who take it as property of the one whose name they wear, or the number of his name, or the mark. The Mark itself is thoroughly connected to the Beast in every way, so that it is enough for god to say to thosee foolish enough to take that damning mark that they have lost their salvation. It would equate to the Jews saying, "we have no king but Ceasar". It is an outright denunciation of God and the Lord Jesus.

To say that one can "half-heartly" take the mark without losing their salvation, especially in the light of Revelation 14:9-11 is nothing short of heresy. I said it twice, and I'll say it again.

"Let God's Word be true, and all men liars!

You know, the term, tempt not the Lord comes to mind when dealing with this issue here. You can take the Mark if you want, but know that when you do, what you think you had will indeed be lost.

Consider this:

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and them which worshipped his image.

Does the vial of God's wrath affect all, or only those who worship the Beast? No. It affects those who have the Mark, irregardless of whether they meant it or not. The choice itself seals their fate. Here's another example:

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and [U]they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. -Revelation 16:11-12

Who has the sores, and who is affected by all of these plagues? Is it only those who worship the beast? No. According to the previous verses that I quoted, the ones who wear the mark join their fate. There is no difference.

Jesus made Himself very clear. No one can serve two masters. In the same manner, no one can wear two seals. Either you are for the Lord or you are against Him. The Mark is the dividing line. take the Mark, and you are against the Lord. Refuse the Mark, and you are with the Lord, and the promise found in Revelation 20:4-6 belongs to you. This is yet another reason why the Lord said that you can not serve God and Mammon, which meant money.

I am sorry, but I can not accept anyone even attempting to justify taking the only mark that will rob you of what God wants you to have, salvation. There is a reason why the scriptures says if anyone takes the Mark, what would happen to them. It is my advice to you, moonglow, to understand this and accept it. God is not going to change just because you do not want to lose the luxuries of this world.

Please, let's calm down and stop accusing people of saying, or implying, what they did not mean...and personal accusations or attacks are not allowed on the board....

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 02:14 PM
Moonglow,
I sincerely apologize for the obviously rude comments that i had presented here in my last post. I have since re-read your posts and realized that I read into your posts some things that were truly not there.

You know, for a long time, I feared that the church would make excuses when the time of testing come, mainly because I did not hear of any of the things in which the Lord taught me using the book of Revelation, including the curse of the Mark. And as you can see, I take that ONE prophecy very seriously.

I thought you were justifying taking the Mark of the Beast, in which all of my comments would have been justified, but again, I reread your posts and realized that you did not insinuate anything of that ilk.

So, just as publically that I have offended you, I am now asking for your forgiveness.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 02:21 PM
Moonglow,
I sincerely apologize for the obviously rude comments that i had presented here in my last post. I have since re-read your posts and realized that I read into your posts some things that were truly not there.

You know, for a long time, I feared that the church would make excuses when the time of testing come, mainly because I did not hear of any of the things in which the Lord taught me using the book of Revelation, including the curse of the Mark. And as you can see, I take that ONE prophecy very seriously.

I thought you were justifying taking the Mark of the Beast, in which all of my comments would have been justified, but again, I reread your posts and realized that you did not insinuate anything of that ilk.

So, just as publically that I have offended you, I am now asking for your forgiveness.

I forgive you. I certainly understand your concern on this..I really do! Its too important of a subject for sure. No hard feelings...and I hope you didn't mind me calling you a dude...lol. I didn't mean it in a negative way. That is what happens when you have a near teenager son who hangs around other kids saying dude all the time...:lol::rolleyes:

God bless

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 02:41 PM
Quoting me - Dear Dragonfighter1, where in scripture do you ever read that any of the Church will be here when the antichrist is present? The elect or remnant that are believers after the Church is gone will go through that part of the tribulation; the Church having been taken to heaven will already be with Christ.

Quoting Crush - Hmm, that's kind of a rip-off don't you think? The Church gets split up, some get to go party in heaven, and some get condemned to suffer through the great tribulation. I've personally never seen this in scripture.

Response - In Revelation 3:10 there is only one segment of the Church that are alive promised to be kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 7:13-15 we see another portion of the Church not kept from the hour of temptation. "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
-----------------------------------
Quoting me - Then will come what is know as the great commission in Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: In that day nations will be witnessed to and accept Christ. But they will not be caught into heaven; they remain on the earth.

Quoting Crush - Yes, I agree that the gospel is finally preached immediately following Satan's casting out of heaven. But it is preached by the people that were given the "great commission", which is all believers, not just a select few.

Response - I agree if you are saying all believers that survived the great tribulation. Those who endured till the end, or the woman of Revelation 12:5-6.
-----------------------------------
Quoting me - There is catching up of the Church in its own order.

Quoting Crush - There is no "catching up of the church" mentioned anywhere in scriptures. There is a resurrection of the martyrs (the first resurrection) and a "catching up" of the faithful that are alive and remain at Christ's second coming (not third).

Response - To me the following verses say we're caught up. We who are alive are a part of the Church.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
-----------------------------------
Quoting me - Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Quoting Crush - Funny, because these are the only ones mentioned as living again (being resurrected) and reigning with Christ for 1000 years....Church is not mentioned

Response- Funny you would mention that. The Church is already with Christ in heaven.
-----------------------------------
Quoting me - Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. When does it happen? - I agree it is at the end of the thousand years. As for some having their reward earlier we see the twenty- four elders in Revelation 4:4 with crowns on their heads.

Quoting Crush - We aren't told who the elders are, and there are, after all, only 24 of them. I hope this isn't the total "remnant of the Church", raptured up pre-trib and rewarded LOL I'm assuming that they are heavenly creatures of origin similar to the 4 living creatures and angels etc. Since they appear in heaven before the 144,000, which are the first men redeemed from the earth.

Response - I'm not sure what you mean that the 144,000, which are the first men redeemed from the earth. There was Jesus' angel in Revelation 1:1 in heaven who claimed to be our brethren. The twenty-four elders and the four beasts sing a new song in Revelation 5:9-10 saying they are redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. And they are with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2. They are round about the throne in Revelation 4:4, and in the midst of the throne in Revelation 4:6. These are saints already in heaven before the tribulation.
-----------------------------------

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 03:49 PM
Quoting third hero - WHat Larry2 is displaying is the fallacy of relying on the word "church" in scripture. The "church" in the Nt is only the gathering of believers. Whereas the believer himself (PC alert,"or herself") isn ot characterized as "thre church", but rather the saint.

Response - Well I won't get too technical on words because my Bible says it that way, and most others reading it have only their Bibles to go by. I do understand that the word "Church" means "a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly." I also know that in Colossians 1:18 "And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church (assembly for your sake): who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." We that are believers (Saints) make up the Church (assembly)
---------------------------------
Quoting third hero - Notice that in Revelation, the term saint pops up in the most inappropriate places, like right in chapter 13 as the recipients of the war that is being waged by the Beast. If the "church" is raptured, then who are those "saints" who are being warred against in chapter 13? Moreover, who are those who are blessed when they die from the moment the Great Tribulation starts onward, as mentioned in chapter 14?

Response - Do you think there's the possibility there are a remnant of Israel also called saints left on earth during the tribulation after other saints are in heaven? To me I see a woman give birth to a man child in Revelation 12:5 who is caught up to God, though she has a place of safety for three and one-half years in Revelation 12:6; think she might be saints that are not caught into heaven?
---------------------------------
Quoting third hero - ANd again, who are those Tribulation saints in chapter 20:4-6, if the church is raptured before the Great Tribulation?

Response - I have no problem with seeing different saints with God in heaven at different times. Where have I said all of the Church doesn't go through a part of the tribulation?
---------------------------------
Quoting third hero - And another thing. Where are the raptured church in Revelation? We see the Tribulation saints in 20:4-6, we see that the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the last day (verses 11-15), but there is no mention of the "raptured church" in not only that chapter, but in the proceeding chapters. Where are they? Did they disappear? Or did they not exist at all?

Response - Revelation 20:4 is the beginning of the reign of Christ, Revelation 20: is at the end of Jesus' reign. Revelation 20:6 describes those of the first resurrection that will reign with Christ for those thousand years that the second death has no power over.

You ask where the raptured Church is in Revelation. In Revelation 4:1 John is called up to heaven and sees different saints there. In Revelation 4:4 are the twenty-four elders. In Revelation 4:6 are the four beasts. In Revelation 7:14-15 John sees the great multitude that came out of great tribulation stand before the throne in Revelation 7:9. Where is the throne? The man child of Revelation 12:5 is caught up unto God and to His throne. Again His throne is in heaven. The 144,000 are without fault before the throne of God in Revelation 14:5.
---------------------------------

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 05:37 PM
xxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dragonfighter1
Oct 9th 2008, 05:38 PM
Moonglow,
I sincerely apologize for the obviously rude comments that i had presented here in my last post. I have since re-read your posts and realized that I read into your posts some things that were truly not there.

You know, for a long time, I feared that the church would make excuses when the time of testing come, mainly because I did not hear of any of the things in which the Lord taught me using the book of Revelation, including the curse of the Mark. And as you can see, I take that ONE prophecy very seriously.

I thought you were justifying taking the Mark of the Beast, in which all of my comments would have been justified, but again, I reread your posts and realized that you did not insinuate anything of that ilk.

So, just as publically that I have offended you, I am now asking for your forgiveness.


Now there is The Mark of Christ! I want to publicly encourage you for having the personal strength to say what you said. Moonglow deserved to hear it and you were man (or women) enough to say it. Way to go!:pp

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 05:44 PM
Now there is The Mark of Christ! I want to publicly encourage you for having the personal strength to say what you said. Moonglow deserved to hear it and you were man (or women) enough to say it. Way to go!:pp

Yep! I was telling my son the other day people are admired that owe up to their mistakes rather then blaming others for their mistakes (not saying thirdhero was blaming anyone because he wasn't) this was a discussion my son and I were having over a relative of his that tends to blame others for his own actions and would never owe up to them let alone say he was sorry.

Its not easy to owe up and say you are sorry and yes it a mark of Christian maturity..:)

oh and thirdhero is a 'he'...:)

God bless

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 06:48 PM
Quoting third hero - WHat Larry2 is displaying is the fallacy of relying on the word "church" in scripture. The "church" in the Nt is only the gathering of believers. Whereas the believer himself (PC alert,"or herself") isn ot characterized as "thre church", but rather the saint.

Response - Well I won't get too technical on words because my Bible says it that way, and most others reading it have only their Bibles to go by. I do understand that the word "Church" means "a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly." I also know that in Colossians 1:18 "And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church (assembly for your sake): who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." We that are believers (Saints) make up the Church (assembly)

Thank you for reinforcing my point.
---------------------------------

Quoting third hero - Notice that in Revelation, the term saint pops up in the most inappropriate places, like right in chapter 13 as the recipients of the war that is being waged by the Beast. If the "church" is raptured, then who are those "saints" who are being warred against in chapter 13? Moreover, who are those who are blessed when they die from the moment the Great Tribulation starts onward, as mentioned in chapter 14?

Response - Do you think there's the possibility there are a remnant of Israel also called saints left on earth during the tribulation after other saints are in heaven? To me I see a woman give birth to a man child in Revelation 12:5 who is caught up to God, though she has a place of safety for three and one-half years in Revelation 12:6; think she might be saints that are not caught into heaven?

What is the "remnant" of Israel doing during th Great Tribulation?

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Revelation 12:14

And again...

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. Verse 6

And Again.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Verse 17.

Axxording to Revelation 12, Israel goes into hiding, to a place prepared for her by God until the Great Tribulation ends. After the Dragon attacks Israel and fails, then He goes after "her seed", who are identified as the saints of the Most High God, those who hold to the testimony of Lord Jesus.

So no, the remnant of Israel is not even in the scene when the Beast wages war against the saints.

Moreover, Revelation defines who the saints are.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-10

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. -Revelation 7:13-15

And again.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4

These have been identified as those from all nations and tongues who have went through The Great Tribulation. These are not from Israel alone, but from the entire world.
---------------------------------

Quoting third hero - ANd again, who are those Tribulation saints in chapter 20:4-6, if the church is raptured before the Great Tribulation?

Response - I have no problem with seeing different saints with God in heaven at different times. Where have I said all of the Church doesn't go through a part of the tribulation?

Well, scriptures tell a different story. It is fine and dandy if you believe that some part of "the church" undergoes the Great Tribulation while others are raptured before then, but scripture would have none of that.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

According to this scripture, no one who is alive until the coming of the Lord will be called up before those who have died for Him. We read that in Revelation 7 and 20, that those who are resurrected are those who lost their heads during the Great Tribulation. We see those who are in heaven are those who underwent the Great Tribulation. Those who are alive when the Tribulation starts can not go to heaven before those who will die for Him throughout the entire time of the Tribulation. That is the order in which the Lord has put into place, and Paul further explains in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.
---------------------------------

Quoting third hero - And another thing. Where are the raptured church in Revelation? We see the Tribulation saints in 20:4-6, we see that the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the last day (verses 11-15), but there is no mention of the "raptured church" in not only that chapter, but in the proceeding chapters. Where are they? Did they disappear? Or did they not exist at all?

Response - Revelation 20:4 is the beginning of the reign of Christ, Revelation 20: is at the end of Jesus' reign. Revelation 20:6 describes those of the first resurrection that will reign with Christ for those thousand years that the second death has no power over.

You ask where the raptured Church is in Revelation. In Revelation 4:1 John is called up to heaven and sees different saints there. In Revelation 4:4 are the twenty-four elders. In Revelation 4:6 are the four beasts. In Revelation 7:14-15 John sees the great multitude that came out of great tribulation stand before the throne in Revelation 7:9. Where is the throne? The man child of Revelation 12:5 is caught up unto God and to His throne. Again His throne is in heaven. The 144,000 are without fault before the throne of God in Revelation 14:5.
---------------------------------
But you did not answer the question. Revelation 7 shows th 144,000 and those who survived the Great Tribulation. Revelation 20 show those who died during the Great Tribulation. The "raptured church" is not represented at all in Revelation. The rest of the believers are only shown as those who rise from their graves fter the 1000 years end. Therefore, since the "raptured church" is not represented, then they are not there, and thus do not exist.

bennie
Oct 9th 2008, 10:24 PM
[quote=bennie;1817402]

I kind of have the feeling you aren't open to hearing much of what I might have to say on this...which is ok...God bless.

hi moonglow.

dont go on feelings brother, they get people in trouble.:D
i am very open to hear a lot of different interpretations. i have read alot of expositions on the endtimes. i love it. it is studying the deaper things of God.
Do you believe the whole of revelation is symbolic??

This is the rule i use to interpret Daniel and Revelation. It clears up alot of fuzz for me.


Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

bennie

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 11:31 PM
Quote - What is the "remnant" of Israel doing during the Great Tribulation?

Response - First, all the remnant are believers, thus elect of God.

Question - May I ask who you think the five wise and five foolish virgins are? Who is the woman, and the man child of Revelation Chapter 12?

Some of the elect will be denying taking the mark of the beast and beheaded

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days (What days?) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." It sure appears there is elect during these days of the tribulation. Since the Church (assemblies) are in heaven who is left in Israel that the nations are going to come against. Where does the antichrist show himself to be God and to whom?

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. This is during the tribulation and there are elect there." What elect can be deceived if they're all gone or hidden?

In Revelation 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Revelation 6:11 they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 14:13 tells us, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." He's talking about those that are going to be killed because they did not accept the mark of the beast. If there are no elect to die, what is being said here?

Quoting third hero - Moreover, Revelation defines who the saints are.

Revelation 7:9-10. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Response - If the great multitude are before the throne, they are in heaven and not on the earth as the elect during the tribulation.

Quoting third hero - But you did not answer the question. Revelation 7 shows the 144,000 and those who survived the Great Tribulation. Revelation 20 show those who died during the Great Tribulation. The "raptured church" is not represented at all in Revelation. The rest of the believers are only shown as those who rise from their graves fter the 1000 years end. Therefore, since the "raptured church" is not represented, then they are not there, and thus do not exist.

Response - Revelation Chapter 7 shows the 144,000 sealed, and the great multitude who came out of great tribulation before God on His throne, and the Lamb in heaven.

Quoting third hero - The "raptured church" is not represented at all in Revelation. The rest of the believers are only shown as those who rise from their graves fter the 1000 years end. Therefore, since the "raptured church" is not represented, then they are not there, and thus do not exist.

Response - Who are all those who are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation appear in heaven in the midst of and around the throne prior to the tribulation? How do the great multitude get to heaven out of great tribulation? How does the man child get caught up to God's throne in Revelation 12:5? Do you think they are believers? If they are in heaven at that point in time, why do they need to wait 1000 years for their resurrection? Please answer my questions now.

Thanks

vinsight4u8
Oct 9th 2008, 11:43 PM
to DIZZY

I'm seeing the time of the 7th trumpet being found at the end of Rev. 4. John never said the elders went back and sat down again or where.

At the end of Rev. 4- they cast off their crowns - so what right then do they have to any longer ever sit in the throne area?

I'm trying to figure out if part of chapter 5 took place during chapter 4's time - as to just what point was John at when he saw the sealed book.
Rev. 4 begins speaking of a throne - then at the end of it refers to worship going to Him that liveth for ever and ever - same as in chapters 10-11 - which takes us clear to the 7th trumpet begins.

Rev. 5 starts out just referring to the throne.


Rev. 11:16 refers to the 24 elders as seated - so that means the end of Rev. 4 is where we should place it.
During the 7th trumpet - the 24 seated elders will fall down and forever lose their seats in the throne area - but they will fall down other times later - such as in chapters 5 and 19.

vinsight4u8
Oct 9th 2008, 11:46 PM
a resurrection of the just

Don't miss that armies come from heaven in chapter 19.

Yet - an army goes to the battle

Do you guys see this?

armies - dresssed in the attire of saints from the marriage
leave heaven

crush
Oct 10th 2008, 12:20 AM
In Revelation 3:10 there is only one segment of the Church that are alive promised to be kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Being "kept" from the hour of temptation doesn't automatically mean "rapture" as you seem to think, it could mean lots of things - Hid, Killed beforehand, not alive during that time period, NOT ABLE TO BE TEMPTED

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

also, temptation that comes upon the whole world is to "try" or "test" the people of the world. The wicked aren't tested, they are punished.


In Revelation 7:13-15 we see another portion of the Church not kept from the hour of temptation. "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

"Coming out of the Great Tribulation" means to be killed during the Great Tribulation, not to be "raptured" beforehand.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



I agree if you are saying all believers that survived the great tribulation. Those who endured till the end, or the woman of Revelation 12:5-6.
The "woman" of Rev 12 is ETHNIC Israel


1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Exactly as I stated earlier, Christ's bondservants that are alive at his coming are "caught up" to meet him AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION, because that's when Jesus himself said that he would return.....

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Funny you would mention that. The Church is already with Christ in heaven.
:no:



I'm not sure what you mean that the 144,000, which are the first men redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

There was Jesus' angel in Revelation 1:1 in heaven who claimed to be our brethren. The twenty-four elders and the four beasts sing a new song in Revelation 5:9-10 saying they are redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. And they are with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2. They are round about the throne in Revelation 4:4, and in the midst of the throne in Revelation 4:6 These are saints already in heaven before the tribulation.
Rev 14:4 makes this theory not possible, since as you say the Elders appear before the 144,000. Most likely the Beasts and the Elders are singing the "new song" [that no man can learn] that the 144,000 learn from them and aquire it as "their" new song - Rev 14:3 - but I really don't know

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 12:41 AM
Dear vinsight4us, I did see you addressed this reply to Dizzy; do you mind me putting in my two cents worth? If not I'm alright with that too.

Quoting vinsight4us - At the end of Rev. 4- they cast off their crowns - so what right then do they have to any longer ever sit in the throne area? I'm seeing the time of the 7th trumpet being found at the end of Rev. 4. John never said the elders went back and sat down again or where.

Response - Evidently they do not need crowns for they sit on their seats before God in Revelation 11:16.
Do you know who sits on that new throne set in heaven in Revelation 4:2?
Do you know Who sits on the throne in Revelation 5:1?

You seem to have some knowledge of the purpose of the twenty-four elders and the four beasts shown in Revelation Chapters 4 & 5, but do you know who they are?

Quoting vinsight4us - The 24 seated elders will fall down and forever lose their seats in the throne area.

Response - I'm just curious as how you come to this conclusion - thanks

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 02:11 AM
Quoting Crush - Being "kept" from the hour of temptation doesn't automatically mean "rapture" as you seem to think, it could mean lots of things - Hid, Killed beforehand, not alive during that time period, NOT ABLE TO BE TEMPTED

Response - Maybe not but I do not see any other one company of saints are kept from written in scripture.

Temptation ¬- one Strong's meaning is "adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness

Tribulation - affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1, persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted.
------------------------------
Quoting me - In Revelation 7:13-15 we see another portion of the Church not kept from the hour of temptation.

Quoting Crush - "Coming out of the Great Tribulation" means to be killed during the Great Tribulation, not to be "raptured" beforehand.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Response - First of all those of Revelation 6:9 are under the altar in heaven, those in the great multitude stand before the throne in heaven. To me those of Revelation 6:9-10 are to rest for a season for them
that are beheaded to be raised at the start of the millennium to reign with Christ for one thousand years.
-------------------------------
Quoting Crush - The "woman" of Rev 12 is ETHINIC Israel.

Response - In Rev 12:1 she appears in heaven, she has a crown, she is also protected on the earth for 3 1/2 years. Does God do that with unbelievers?
-------------------------------
Quoting Crush - Christ's bondservants that are alive at his coming are "caught up" to meet him AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION, because that's when Jesus himself said that he would return.....

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Response - You seem to be putting all your eggs in one basket. jk :) Are you saying Jesus only comes one time for His saints?

There is scriptural evidence of at least two. Below we see His declaration "I come as a thief." Then we read He comes where every eye shall see Him; does this sound like the same event to you?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 16:15. "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." A thief comes when you cannot see them.
-----------------------------
Quoting me - I'm not sure what you mean that the 144,000, which are the first men redeemed from the earth.

Quoting Crush - These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

Response - Epaenetus of Romans 16:5 was also a firstfruits unto Christ. Firstfruits were the first of any particular group, or crop; he was the firstfruits of Achaia. The 144,000 were the firstfruits from those of Israel at that time unto God. They were all of Israel according to Revelation 7:1-8.

In Revelation 5:9 we read of the four and twenty elders, and the four beasts who are in heaven as being redeemed "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Were these not also redeemed from the earth?
--------------------------
Quoting me - There was Jesus' angel in Revelation 1:1 in heaven who claimed to be our brethren. The twenty-four elders and the four beasts sing a new song in Revelation 5:9-10 saying they are redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. And they are with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2. They are round about the throne in Revelation 4:4, and in the midst of the throne in Revelation 4:6 These are saints already in heaven before the tribulation.

Quoting Crush - Rev 14:4 makes this theory not possible, since as you say the Elders appear before the 144,000. Most likely the Beasts and the Elders are singing the "new song" [that no man can learn] that the 144,000 learn from them and aquire it as "their" new song - Rev 14:3 - but I really don't know

Response - No, they did not sing the song of the 144,000 because only the 144,000 could learn it according to Revelation 14:3. The four beasts and the four and twenty elders sung this new song:

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10. "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 144,000 follow Jesus where ever He goeth; possibly those armies in Revelation 19:14-15 that also rule the nations with a rod of iron according to Revelation 12:5 though this is just my own thoughts.

Thanks Crush for the discourse
-------------------------------

third hero
Oct 10th 2008, 04:02 AM
Quote - What is the "remnant" of Israel doing during the Great Tribulation?

Response - First, all the remnant are believers, thus elect of God.

Right, and wrong. The remnant of Israel are indeed the elect of God, but they are the Israel that will be protected by God for 3.5 years, as mentioned in Revelation 12. They are not the "elect" that Lord Jesus talks about in Matthew 24, nor are they the "saints" that come out of the Great Tribulation. The key word is "Israel".


Question - May I ask who you think the five wise and five foolish virgins are? Who is the woman, and the man child of Revelation Chapter 12?

The five wise and five foolish virgins are parables to the types of believers that the Lord will judge at His return. There are those who, while wise, take the necessary precautions while the five foolish ones do not. Hence the true reason why I debate in these forums at all.

The woman is the nation who gave birth to Lord Jesus. Which nation gave birth to Lord Jesus? The man-child is revealed long before Revelation was written, and in fact, the writer used the man-child imagery to show the connection between the man-child in Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12. They are indeed the same person, the same Lord Jesus.


Some of the elect will be denying taking the mark of the beast and beheaded

Wrong. ALL of the ELECT will deny the mark. Some will face death while the others will live without the influence of the Mark until they are captured and choose death over the taking of the Mark. Rest assured, no one of the Elect will take that mark.


Matthew 24:22 "And except those days (What days?) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." It sure appears there is elect during these days of the tribulation. Since the Church (assemblies) are in heaven who is left in Israel that the nations are going to come against. Where does the antichrist show himself to be God and to whom?

Larry, show me in Matthew 24 the spot where the Church is taken to heaven. This is a classical assumption without collaboration.

One thing that you will learn in this forum, whether it be from me, or wpm, or quiet dove, (btw QD believes in pre-trib as you do),is that with every statement that you say, evidence from the Bible must be present, or else no one will accept it.

Your question is void because the church is not in heaven when the time that is mentioned in Matthew 24 comes about, for the very next verse has Lord Jesus addressing "you", who can not be anoyone other than the believer.


Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. This is during the tribulation and there are elect there." What elect can be deceived if they're all gone or hidden?

Under the premise that I have made, the saints are tested, and Israel is in hiding. Your assumption again brings about a question that no one can answer until you prove that the church is gone before the Tribulation. I am not going to believe what you say just because you said it. You are not Christ, and I am not about to just believe in anything. Evidence is the key here larry2.

crush
Oct 10th 2008, 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by larry2 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1818033#post1818033)In Rev 12:1 she appears in heaven, she has a crown, she is also protected on the earth for 3 1/2 years. Does God do that with unbelievers?Yes, God spares and "protects" a remnant of Israel for 3 1/2 years.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Epaenetus of Romans 16:5 was also a firstfruits unto Christ. Firstfruits were the first of any particular group, or crop; he was the firstfruits of Achaia. The 144,000 were the firstfruits from those of Israel at that time unto God. They were all of Israel according to Revelation 7:1-8.Which means he was the "first" of many that came to salvation in the province of Achaia. This is an expression, as you say, it means "first of a group or crop" this does not mean that he is a part of the Israelite 144,000 in Rev, this means he is the first of the saved of Achaia.

The 144,000 are "firstfruits" or "first of many" men to be redeemed from the earth. This is not a past event [per vs. 4:1] and because of the timing of their "sealing" [on earth: per vs 7:4] and being "caught up" [in heaven: per vs. 12:5]


In Revelation 5:9 we read of the four and twenty elders, and the four beasts who are in heaven as being redeemed "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Were these not also redeemed from the earth?Again, I don't know "who" the elders or the beasts are, I just know who they can't be *shrugs*


No, they did not sing the song of the 144,000 because only the 144,000 could learn it according to Revelation 14:3. The four beasts and the four and twenty elders sung this new song:no man can learn the song except the 144,000, the beasts and elders can't be men as far as I can see for reasons I've stated already


The 144,000 follow Jesus where ever He goeth; possibly those armies in Revelation 19:14-15 that also rule the nations with a rod of iron according to Revelation 12:5 though this is just my own thoughts.Oddly enough, I don't disagree with this too much LOL. The man-child of Rev 12:5 is obviously a description of Jesus Christ, but the context does not allow for the man-child to be Jesus. So your "follow him wherever he goeth" quote is pretty spot on IMO. And describes a righteous "bride" [Rth 1:16]. Since husband and wife are "one flesh" [Gen 2:24] it isn't outside the realm of possibility that the "bride" (144,000) is the man-child of Rev 12:5


Thanks Crush for the discourseNP, I love it... have a great nite.

crush
Oct 10th 2008, 04:14 AM
Larry, show me in Matthew 24 the spot where the Church is taken to heaven. This is a classical assumption without collaboration.
I agree. Get the timeline of events from Matt 24 NOT Rev! Way too confusing otherwise....

third hero
Oct 10th 2008, 04:23 AM
Revelation 6:11 they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 14:13 tells us, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." He's talking about those that are going to be killed because they did not accept the mark of the beast. If there are no elect to die, what is being said here?

Larry. This is a wquestion that you should be asking yourself. I am not the one that says that the "Elect" is anyone other than the believers, otherwise known as the saints, who are identified in Revelation as the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation, some without their heads. According to the Revelation AND Zachariah 14:1-5, Israel goes into hiding. Therefore, Israel can not be the Election that undergoes the Great Tribulation. So, who are the Elect if they are not the saints, which Revelation clearly say that they are?


Quoting third hero - Moreover, Revelation defines who the saints are.

Revelation 7:9-10. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Response - If the great multitude are before the throne, they are in heaven and not on the earth as the elect during the tribulation.

Why didn't you quote the next set of verses that I used, namely these:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14.

According to the words of that elder, they were not in heaven, but rather they are those who came out of the Great Tribulation. In order ot come out of something, you had to first be in it.

Again, your response is yet another assumption based on nothing at all other than your desire to believe what you want. Until you show evidence that the "church" is gone from the earth, and I believe that you are going to have to start another thread on this one because we are getting way off topic here, I will not allow you to continue to present the church as an entity that is gone from the earth.

Evidence is the key, Larry2, and it is required in this forum, especially with heavyweights like wpm, John146, Quiet Dove, Rookie, David Taylor, Saved 7, Stefen, Luke e leven and many other posters from all sorts of various belief structures armed with scriptures that will go a long way towards proving their POVs. Assumptions do not make the cut here.


Quoting third hero - But you did not answer the question. Revelation 7 shows the 144,000 and those who survived the Great Tribulation. Revelation 20 show those who died during the Great Tribulation. The "raptured church" is not represented at all in Revelation. The rest of the believers are only shown as those who rise from their graves fter the 1000 years end. Therefore, since the "raptured church" is not represented, then they are not there, and thus do not exist.

Response - Revelation Chapter 7 shows the 144,000 sealed, and the great multitude who came out of great tribulation before God on His throne, and the Lamb in heaven.

Where is the "raptured church" in the scriptures? Still waiting for a scriptural response.


Quoting third hero - The "raptured church" is not represented at all in Revelation. The rest of the believers are only shown as those who rise from their graves fter the 1000 years end. Therefore, since the "raptured church" is not represented, then they are not there, and thus do not exist.

Response - Who are all those who are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation appear in heaven in the midst of and around the throne prior to the tribulation? Answered already. They are the tribulation saints. Answered this three times now.
How do the great multitude get to heaven out of great tribulation? Already answered as well. They remain obedient to Lord Jesus until eith He returns to get them, or they lose their heads in obedience to God.
How does the man child get caught up to God's throne in Revelation 12:5? Read Acts 1:6-12.
Do you think they are believers? again, answered. I do not think they are believers. The Bible plainly says that they are believers.
If they are in heaven at that point in time, why do they need to wait 1000 years for their resurrection? Who said that they were in heaven? The innumerable people were seen in heaven as a sign to all of the believers that they were not forgotten when the sixth seal was written. They were there symbolically so that the people did not believe that God only separated Israel from them.
Please answer my questions now.

Thanks

Your questions are presupposed on the assumption that the Church is in heaven. When you prove that the church is in heaven, then I will answer your questions. Until then, study up, because it is going to take a while for you to find one scripture that says that the Church is raptured before the Day of the Lord, when the Lord Returns, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" as mentioned in Matthew 24:29.

My heart's Desire
Oct 10th 2008, 05:44 AM
The "second death has no power" over the tribulation martyrs - why? Because everyone of them are guaranteed and given everlasting life.

All other believers will face judgment day, the tribulation martyrs will not. They will be given immortality and never face judgment day. Why would a believer be given immortality BEFORE they are judged according to their works?

There is something confusing about your entire statement. I started to agree, but why wouldn't a believer be given immortality ......
I have to stop there. First, Church age believers have already been given eternal life through the ONE who paid the cost of the judgment and gave them life. We have already been judged and justified thru Christ.
Depending on how you mean immortality of the body or of the soul/spirit.
The Lord Jesus told the Pharisees that they erred because God is not the God of the dead but of the Living.
When Church age believers die they are with the Lord so spiritually they are immortal. If speaking of their bodies they don't have then I suppose they are not immortal yet in that sense.
Believers are no longer to be judged in the sense of Salvation. Of works for Rewards, yes. For Salvation, No.
It is obvious that after the Trib. people will be judged according to their works as in the sheep and goats. How people try to rectify a person believes in the blood of Jesus for salvation and can yet be lost in the sheep and goats judgment is beyond me. The sheep and goat judgment appears to be "works" based so it must be for the specific time of the Tribulation when people will have to have faith in the Lord Jesus as well as keeping His commandments.
About the judgment day for believers and for Trib believers...why would believers have to be judged and Trib martyrs do not?

The second death has no power over Church age believers either.
Nevermind I'm confusing myself!

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 06:44 AM
Quoting me - Who is the woman, and the man child of Revelation Chapter 12?

Quoting third hero - The woman is the nation who gave birth to Lord Jesus. Which nation gave birth to Lord Jesus? The man-child is revealed long before Revelation was written, and in fact, the writer used the man-child imagery to show the connection between the man-child in Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12. They are indeed the same person, the same Lord Jesus.

Response - May I then ask the parameters of the book of Revelation. I know the future is eternity, but in John's vision, how far back in time is he shown from the Lord's day and scripture if you have it?

Quoting me - Some of the elect will be denying taking the mark of the beast and beheaded

Quoting third hero - Rest assured no one of the Elect will take that mark

Response - Yeah I know that. Let me rephrase it. By denying the mark, some of the elect will be beheaded.

Quoting third hero - Larry, show me in Matthew 24 the spot where the Church is taken to heaven. This is a classical assumption without collaboration.

Response - In Matthew 24 The Son is shown to come after the tribulation, and it is going to be a very visible appearing that all the tribes of the earth will see.

Quoting third hero - with every statement that you say, evidence from the Bible must be present, or else no one will accept it.

Response - With you we can use scripture only if possible. May I see scripture that shows Jesus was the man child? That John saw back from the Lord's day to the birth of Jesus. Revelation 1:1 shows the very context concerning time you so conveniently overlook. When God says "things which must shortly come to pass," when do you say this will be?

In Revelation 12:5 where the man child is caught up unto God, where is scripture do you ever see Jesus caught up unto God at birth, or maybe you do. I will certainly start having more confidence in your theology if you show that to me.

If above you say that the woman in Revelation Chapter is Israel, and she gives birth to the man child and you believe that is Jesus, then is she hidden for 3 1/2 years from the birth of Jesus?

Quoting third hero - the church is not in heaven when the time that is mentioned in Matthew 24 comes about.

Question - In your estimation according to scripture, when does Revelation Chapter 4 begin relative to Matthew Chapter 24 and Revelation Chapter 6? In other words, John shown things in Revelation Chapter 4 and are the events there ahead of those in Chapter 6?

Quoting me - Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. This is during the tribulation and there are elect there." What elect can be deceived if they're all gone or hidden?

Quoting third hero - Under the premise that I have made, the saints are tested, and Israel is in hiding. Your assumption again brings about a question that no one can answer until you prove that the church is gone before the Tribulation. I am not going to believe what you say just because you said it. You are not Christ, and I am not about to just believe in anything. Evidence is the key here larry2.

Response - Forget it then third hero, I don't expect an answer to my questions above either - thanks anyway

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 10:18 AM
The last rapture of the church during the tribulation is seen in Revelation 12:5. "And she (a great wonder in heaven) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Who is this man child? It is not Jesus; He is on His throne already in Revelation 4:2. We're given a view of them in Revelation 14:1. "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

Hi Larry 2,
I started to write on the main verse you are speaking of here or the verse I believe we need to look in the right light so to speak, but then I thought no to understand this verse we need to understand the whole chapter. We can’t just pick a verse out and say this is what it means. I am going to have to break this up because there is so much to write and it would be better to read if it was broken up.
Revelation 12
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
This verse is speaking of Israel and the twelve star are the twelve tribes of Israel and out of the tribe of Judah came the child who is Jesus Christ.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
This verse as we know speaks of Satan.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Satan when he fell from heaven at the beginning of creation, drew a third of the angels down with him and he decided there and then that he was going to try and destroy God’s plan of salvation for mankind.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
This verse is talking about Israel and out of Israel came Jesus, He was to rule the nations with an iron rod. His own people crucified their own Messiah and He was taken up to heaven and sits at God’s right hand. This speaks of Christ and His time here on this earth.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 10:19 AM
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
This verse is talking about the time of tribulation, God has already prepared a place for Israel in the wilderness where He will look after them for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, just like He looked after Elijah.
1 Kings 17:1-7 1 And Elijah the Tishbite, of the inhabitants of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the LORD God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except at my word.”
2 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 3 “Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan. 4 And it will be that you shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there.”
5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook. 7 And it happened after a while that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.

Now we need to remember in these next verses we are in the tribulation period and Satan has always had access to the throne of God where he is able to accuse the brethren which you will notice in verse 10.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30894a)] in heaven any longer.
Satan is cast out of heaven permanently no longer can he enter heaven, but not only was Satan cast out of heaven so was his fallen angels cast out. This casting down to the earth is totally different to the fall in verse 4 for he still had access to heaven, not now he is earth bound now. Can you imagine Satan earth bound in Jerusalem and millions of fallen angels earth bound aswell. Devestating if you ask me.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Cast out Satan and his angels no longer was he the prince of the air. Christ had taken the airways back.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 10:20 AM
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
A celebration is held in heaven by all who are there. Who is there in heaven celebrating? Lets have a look.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Who overcame Satan and his demons? The church overcame by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
All who are in heaven rejoice angels and the redeemed church. But wait the earth is in big trouble because Satan has been cast down and he has great wrath, he is angry and he knows he only has a short time left.
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
Satan turns is anger against Israel.
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
But God has prepared a place for her for one thousand two hundred sixty days in the wilderness and Satan tries his hardest to kill her
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
But the inhabitants of the earth helped her to escape.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 10:21 AM
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Satan’s anger grew even more so he goes after the rest of her offspring. The 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel but he cannot harm them either.
Revelation 9:1-12 1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

This is the first woe proclaimed on the earth, why is a woe? Let’s have a look. A fallen star (angel) is cast out of heaven and in his hand he has the key to the bottomless pit where all the demons that have been bound up in there from Noahs flood onwards are set lose. Not good for the inhabitants of the earth. Billions of angels are now on the earth causing havoc.

You will notice in verse 4 they are commanded not to harm those who have the mark of God in their foreheads. Who is marked or sealed by God in the forehead? The 144,000 of coarse Rev 7 you will find that. You will also notice that the demons were not given authority to kill man but they were allowed to torment them for five months.

During the time of this persecution on the earth there are people who come to believe in Jesus Christ through the preaching of the 144,000 and the angels flying through the air and let’s not forget the two witnesses at this point in time aswell.

There is so much to write and as I write more comes to mind and it feels like my head is going to explode so I will finish here for now and continue another time. Maybe we can do a study on this.

crush
Oct 10th 2008, 11:19 AM
There is something confusing about your entire statement. I started to agree, but why wouldn't a believer be given immortality ......
I have to stop there. First, Church age believers have already been given eternal life through the ONE who paid the cost of the judgment and gave them life. We have already been judged and justified thru Christ.
Depending on how you mean immortality of the body or of the soul/spirit.
The Lord Jesus told the Pharisees that they erred because God is not the God of the dead but of the Living.
When Church age believers die they are with the Lord so spiritually they are immortal. If speaking of their bodies they don't have then I suppose they are not immortal yet in that sense.
Believers are no longer to be judged in the sense of Salvation. Of works for Rewards, yes. For Salvation, No.
It is obvious that after the Trib. people will be judged according to their works as in the sheep and goats. How people try to rectify a person believes in the blood of Jesus for salvation and can yet be lost in the sheep and goats judgment is beyond me. The sheep and goat judgment appears to be "works" based so it must be for the specific time of the Tribulation when people will have to have faith in the Lord Jesus as well as keeping His commandments.
About the judgment day for believers and for Trib believers...why would believers have to be judged and Trib martyrs do not?

The second death has no power over Church age believers either.
Nevermind I'm confusing myself!

yes, all believers are promised eternal life - as long as they are faithful 'til the end. The end can be their own death, or in the case of those believers that are alive at Christ's coming.....the "end" is Christ's coming. The trib martyrs (and all other martyrs really) are definitely faithful 'til the end, there is no doubt there. For all other believers, it's a judgment call.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 11:39 AM
to DIZZY

I'm seeing the time of the 7th trumpet being found at the end of Rev. 4. John never said the elders went back and sat down again or where.

At the end of Rev. 4- they cast off their crowns - so what right then do they have to any longer ever sit in the throne area?

I'm trying to figure out if part of chapter 5 took place during chapter 4's time - as to just what point was John at when he saw the sealed book.
Rev. 4 begins speaking of a throne - then at the end of it refers to worship going to Him that liveth for ever and ever - same as in chapters 10-11 - which takes us clear to the 7th trumpet begins.

Rev. 5 starts out just referring to the throne.


Rev. 11:16 refers to the 24 elders as seated - so that means the end of Rev. 4 is where we should place it.
During the 7th trumpet - the 24 seated elders will fall down and forever lose their seats in the throne area - but they will fall down other times later - such as in chapters 5 and 19.

I don't think you understand the seals are played out first and then the trumpets and after the last trumpet is blown the bowl judgment run consecitively one after the other like rapid fire.

Revelation 11,12,13 are from Satan's perspective. Revelation 14,15,16 are from God's perspective of what is happening during the tribulation.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2008, 12:06 PM
I don't think you understand the seals are played out first and then the trumpets and after the last trumpet is blown the bowl judgment run consecitively one after the other like rapid fire.

Revelation 11,12,13 are from Satan's perspective. Revelation 14,15,16 are from God's perspective of what is happening during the tribulation.


I see the first two seals are already over. I use the OT prophecies - such as Zechariah chapter 6 and Deuteronomy 32:34.

I see Rev. 1-3 as a section - then John wrote chapter 4 - but did chapter 5 also begin too?

such as:
What if John is seeing two throne scenes?

the one of God - having the sealed book
and the one of - Him that liveth forever and ever - that opens the sealed book
/done by the Lamb

Look at Rev. 14?
Here John speaks of seeing temple events - but sometimes notes that he is referring to the one in heaven.

I think that chapter 12 begins in chapter 4 and that is why John is told in chapter 5 about the Lion of the tribe of Judah opened the book.
If John has already seen event after event - then why does chapter 12 open with a remark as to - a great wonder.
then in chapter 12 - another great wonder
then in chapter 15 - another sign

John was caught up in ch 4 to be shown things - so why wouldn't he first see some prophecy events and then come to the time of the sealed book?

ch 4
I will shew thee
ch 12
there appeared a great wonder

another wonder

Too many things in Revelation are not lining up for me if I just let the chapters try to flow straight through. One part is the end of chapter 11.
Look at Rev. 4:5
and 8:5-6.

What should come after a lightnings and thunderings type of verse?
seven before God
seven of something show up

So after Rev. 11 should be seven seen - but that did not happen with chapter 12.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2008, 12:20 PM
Dear vinsight4us, I did see you addressed this reply to Dizzy; do you mind me putting in my two cents worth? If not I'm alright with that too.

Quoting vinsight4us - At the end of Rev. 4- they cast off their crowns - so what right then do they have to any longer ever sit in the throne area? I'm seeing the time of the 7th trumpet being found at the end of Rev. 4. John never said the elders went back and sat down again or where.

Response - Evidently they do not need crowns for they sit on their seats before God in Revelation 11:16.
Do you know who sits on that new throne set in heaven in Revelation 4:2?
Do you know Who sits on the throne in Revelation 5:1?

You seem to have some knowledge of the purpose of the twenty-four elders and the four beasts shown in Revelation Chapters 4 & 5, but do you know who they are?

Quoting vinsight4us - The 24 seated elders will fall down and forever lose their seats in the throne area.

Response - I'm just curious as how you come to this conclusion - thanks

I see Rev. 11:16 as letting us know that we are in the time of chapter 4 - as to the 24 elders are the ones that John saw sitting. It seems that John heard the four beasts repeating that chapter 4 is to come type of holy message for a long time, and the 24 must sit till just past when the time finally comes to its end. Then - the four beasts will eventually get to that give thanks point and the 24 elders take their only moment of falling from seats. They cast their crowns to the throne of Him that liveth forever and ever. Chapter 4 is only just now referring to Jesus in that way - and if we add in chapter 10, we find that is where the living forever and ever part is mentioned.

I see them as giving up their seats as Jesus will come back as OT foretold - exalted alone.

I see Rev. 5 as finding only many angels in heaven - because John has watched other chapters first where an angel comes down from heaven at times, and John never said they went back. Rev. 7 finds all the angels standing - so the rapture time is come and all returned to heaven - the great tribulation time is over - yet- in Rev. 8 we are taken back in time to when only seven angels stood and another angel came.

In Rev. 20:1 - we find the first angel comes down from heaven - as in it starts over again?

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2008, 12:25 PM
Whom are the armies from heaven?

They are the saints from the marriage time. One army won't continue on to the battle though as they are the tribulation martyrs that already won victory over the beast.

the battle takes place in chapter 19
(which is the Armageddon battle in chapter 16)

then - they will sit
Rev. 20
Rev. 20 reveals that after the battle both of these army types of saints will sit to reign.
they sat - has to refer to the army that fought at Armageddon\\

then the other army - the trib martyred saints will join them to reign

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 05:24 PM
Dear vinsight4u8, I don't want to mess you up in your present thinking in case I'm wrong in understanding your opinion, but in Revelation 4:2 a throne is set in heaven. The Father remains on His throne of Grace where Jesus set beside Him as our mediator, but now Jesus takes His own throne, and those around Him, the four and twenty-four elders and the four beasts are redeemed according to Revelation 5:9. In Revelation 5:1 we see the Father on His throne and in Revelation 5:6 we see Jesus the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders go to the Father and take the book from His hand.

Quoting vinsight4u8 - In Rev. 20:1 - we find the first angel comes down from heaven - as in it starts over again?

Response -This angel is Jesus Himself - He is the one having the key to the bottomless pit and the authority to bind Satan, and if you don't agree I have no problem with that. :)

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 11:52 PM
I see the first two seals are already over. I use the OT prophecies - such as Zechariah chapter 6 and Deuteronomy 32:34.

I see Rev. 1-3 as a section - then John wrote chapter 4 - but did chapter 5 also begin too?

such as:
What if John is seeing two throne scenes?

the one of God - having the sealed book
and the one of - Him that liveth forever and ever - that opens the sealed book
/done by the Lamb

Look at Rev. 14?
Here John speaks of seeing temple events - but sometimes notes that he is referring to the one in heaven.

I think that chapter 12 begins in chapter 4 and that is why John is told in chapter 5 about the Lion of the tribe of Judah opened the book.
If John has already seen event after event - then why does chapter 12 open with a remark as to - a great wonder.
then in chapter 12 - another great wonder
then in chapter 15 - another sign

John was caught up in ch 4 to be shown things - so why wouldn't he first see some prophecy events and then come to the time of the sealed book?

ch 4
I will shew thee
ch 12
there appeared a great wonder

another wonder

Too many things in Revelation are not lining up for me if I just let the chapters try to flow straight through. One part is the end of chapter 11.
Look at Rev. 4:5
and 8:5-6.

What should come after a lightnings and thunderings type of verse?
seven before God
seven of something show up

So after Rev. 11 should be seven seen - but that did not happen with chapter 12.


Hi Vinsight
I see Revelation has been confused and muddled up.

The first and second seal has not been played out yet and the scripture you supplied to say they have has nothing to do with Revelation 6 and the seals.

Chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation are played out at the same time. It is God who sits on the throne and the elders cast their crowns before Him whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to God who sits on the throne. So you need to notice that the twentyfour elders continually throw their crowns before the feet of God, as I said in a previous post they continually are bowing before God they are not seated all the time.

Then we look at chapter 5 and we see a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He is able to take the scroll from the hand of Him who sits on the throne. As chapters 4 & 5 are played out at the same time Christ can not be on the throne and in the midst of the throne at the same time.

John was shown in chapters 2 & 3 what would happen to the church, then in chapter 4 he was shown what must take place after the church era.

Vinsight I have covered the end of chapter 11 and the meaning of it in another post here you might like to have a read of that post and chapter 12 I have also covered and I must say it doesn't start in chapter 4.

DIZZY
Oct 11th 2008, 12:03 AM
Dear vinsight4u8, I don't want to mess you up in your present thinking in case I'm wrong in understanding your opinion, but in Revelation 4:2 a throne is set in heaven. The Father remains on His throne of Grace where Jesus set beside Him as our mediator, but now Jesus takes His own throne, and those around Him, the four and twenty-four elders and the four beasts are redeemed according to Revelation 5:9. In Revelation 5:1 we see the Father on His throne and in Revelation 5:6 we see Jesus the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders go to the Father and take the book from His hand.

Quoting vinsight4u8 - In Rev. 20:1 - we find the first angel comes down from heaven - as in it starts over again?

Response -This angel is Jesus Himself - He is the one having the key to the bottomless pit and the authority to bind Satan, and if you don't agree I have no problem with that. :)

That's right Larry only Christ has the power to bind Satan. But I must say this one thing it is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of God not the four beasts and the elders.

Revelation 5:6-7
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

Revelation 4 it is God who sits on the throne and the elders cast their crowns continually before His throne 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne.

My heart's Desire
Oct 11th 2008, 12:04 AM
yes, all believers are promised eternal life - as long as they are faithful 'til the end. No, all believers are promised eternal life as long as they believe in Jesus Christ to save them, once and for all, unless you are only referring to Tribulation believers who become so after the catching up of the church of this age.

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 12:34 AM
No, all believers are promised eternal life as long as they believe in Jesus Christ to save them, once and for all, unless you are only referring to Tribulation believers who become so after the catching up of the church of this age.

No I'm referring to all believers. If you are saved when you are 30 then fall away when you are 60 and renounce your faith, then die....you are not faithful until the end. In the case of this believer, the "end" is his own death.

In the case of a martyr, the end is their own death also. However it is different than other deaths, since the actual cause of death is "belief in Jesus Christ". So it is known that they are "faithful 'til the end"

In the case of the elect, that are alive at the end of the tribulation, to see Christ's return the "end" is Christ's return. So these are the only people where "faithful 'til the end" doesn't mean their own death really.

If you believe in OSAS I'm not gonna be able to help you, sorry.....

larry2
Oct 11th 2008, 12:41 AM
Quoting me - In Revelation 5:1 we see the Father on His throne and in Revelation 5:6 we see Jesus the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders go to the Father and take the book from His hand.

Quoting Dizzy - I must say this one thing it is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of God not the four beasts and the elders.

Response - You and I are both right - lol - I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I highlighted it in red above to show my intent.

Quoting Dizzy - Revelation 4 it is God who sits on the throne and the elders cast their crowns continually before His throne 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne.

Response - I have to disagree with you on this one Dizzy. The four and twenty elders and the four beasts are redeemed brethren, and they surround their savior in Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

The reason it is Jesus on the throne in Revelation 4:2 is because of Revelation 4:8 the four beasts say of Him: "Which was, and is, and is to come." Who is it that is to come? Jesus.

In Revelation 4:11 pointing to V2 the four and twenty elders sa of Him, thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Who created all things? Jesus.

John 1:3 says of Jesus: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Colossians 1:15-17
15 (Jesus) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus in on that new throne set in heaven in Revelation 4:2.

My heart's Desire
Oct 11th 2008, 12:42 AM
If you believe in OSAS I'm not gonna be able to help you, sorry.....

You are right. I am OSAS and Pre-trib. Although mid-trib is a little interesting.
I think I'm a bit dispensationalist too. Ah. Anyway, I search the scriptures to see if it is so. :)

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 12:51 AM
Anyway, I search the scriptures to see if it is so. :)

Amen.

[msg. too short]

DIZZY
Oct 11th 2008, 01:03 AM
Quoting me - In Revelation 5:1 we see the Father on His throne and in Revelation 5:6 we see Jesus the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders go to the Father and take the book from His hand.

Quoting Dizzy - I must say this one thing it is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of God not the four beasts and the elders.

Response - You and I are both right - lol - I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I highlighted it in red above to show my intent.

Quoting Dizzy - Revelation 4 it is God who sits on the throne and the elders cast their crowns continually before His throne 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne.

Response - I have to disagree with you on this one Dizzy. The four and twenty elders and the four beasts are redeemed brethren, and they surround their savior in Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

The reason it is Jesus on the throne in Revelation 4:2 is because of Revelation 4:8 the four beasts say of Him: "Which was, and is, and is to come." Who is it that is to come? Jesus.

In Revelation 4:11 pointing to V2 the four and twenty elders sa of Him, thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Who created all things? Jesus.

John 1:3 says of Jesus: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Colossians 1:15-17
15 (Jesus) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus in on that new throne set in heaven in Revelation 4:2.

Hi Larry,
I do apologize you are correct it is Christ on throne as God and creator of all things not as the Lamb which stands before the throne.

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 01:22 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one Dizzy. The four and twenty elders and the four beasts are redeemed brethren, and they surround their savior in Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"


I have to admit that I have been troubled by Rev 5:9 ever since you brought it up as support for a pre-trib rapture. So I checked the original greek and have been breaking the scripture down to try and understand it better. Basically I discovered that the word "us" (that appears after redeemed) doesn't exist in this scripture and changes the meaning of it considerably.....here is the whole verse broken down...

kai - and
adO - they sing, they are singing
OdE kainos - new song
legO - saying
axios eimi - you are worthy
lambanO - to receive
lo biblion - the small scroll
kai - and
anoigO - to open
ho sphragis- the seals
autos - of it
hoti - that
sphazO - (you) were slain
kai - and
agorazO - buy, purchase
ho theos - to God
en lo haima su - in (by) your blood
ek pas phulE- out of every tribe
kai - and
glOssa - language
kai - and
laos - people
kai - and
ethnos - language

As best as I can tell, here is what the verse actually says:

And they are singing a new song saying "You are Worthy to take the small scroll and to open it's seals. That you were slain and purchase to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"

Here is a link to an online interlinear, so you can see for yourself

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev5.pdf

vinsight4u8
Oct 11th 2008, 01:46 AM
Dear vinsight4u8, I don't want to mess you up in your present thinking in case I'm wrong in understanding your opinion, but in Revelation 4:2 a throne is set in heaven. The Father remains on His throne of Grace where Jesus set beside Him as our mediator, but now Jesus takes His own throne, and those around Him, the four and twenty-four elders and the four beasts are redeemed according to Revelation 5:9. In Revelation 5:1 we see the Father on His throne and in Revelation 5:6 we see Jesus the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders go to the Father and take the book from His hand.

Quoting vinsight4u8 - In Rev. 20:1 - we find the first angel comes down from heaven - as in it starts over again?

Response -This angel is Jesus Himself - He is the one having the key to the bottomless pit and the authority to bind Satan, and if you don't agree I have no problem with that. :)


In Rev. 5:9 - the four beasts and the 24 elders teach a sing - as in sing a song for the redeemed to learn.

Just as in Rev. 14 - a song is being taught from heaven to the 144,000 redeemed among men on the earth.

larry2
Oct 11th 2008, 01:58 AM
Quoting Crush concerning Revelation 5:9 - As best as I can tell, here is what the verse actually says:

And they are singing a new song saying "You are Worthy to take the small scroll and to open it's seals. That you were slain and purchase to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"

Response - Wow, I'm sure thankful I wasn't the one to have to translate all that. If they translated it as "men" instead of "Us" which would still be correct, it would not deter from the fact that the elders and living ones as Ezekiel described the four beasts were believers, and were praising the Lord Jesus. They had crowns they earned, they sung, and then in Revelation 5:11 they are differentiated from many angels around the throne.

Thanks Crush

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 02:06 AM
Wow, I'm sure thankful I wasn't the one to have to translate all that. If they translated it as "men" instead of "Us" which would still be correct, it would not deter from the fact that the elders and living ones as Ezekiel described the four beasts were believers, and were praising the Lord Jesus. They had crowns they earned, they sung, and then in Revelation 5:11 they are differentiated from many angels around the throne.

Thanks Crush

Please don't accept my translation, because I'm not an expert whatsoever, just using internet tools....LOL, maybe a language expert will come along and help. I would suggest you take a look at the interlinear link that I gave, because I can see a significant difference in what it says, and what you are saying....

In the interlinear version - the elders and beast are praising the Lord because he redeems people from the earth

In your version - the elders and beasts are praising the Lord because he redeems them from the earth

big diff.....

quiet dove
Oct 11th 2008, 02:09 AM
mograce4u had a good place to down load the interlinear, I lost that when my computer went caput, but maybe she still has it.

larry2
Oct 11th 2008, 02:12 AM
Quoting vinsight4u8 - In Rev. 5:9 - the four beasts and the 24 elders teach a sing - as in sing a song for the redeemed to learn.

Just as in Rev. 14 - a song is being taught from heaven to the 144,000 redeemed among men on the earth.

Response - Both groups do sing songs, though those in Revelation 5:9 sing a song of their experience, and the 144,000 sing a different song of their experience which only they could learn which may have included the words in Revelation 14:4: We "were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

DIZZY
Oct 11th 2008, 02:21 AM
In Rev. 5:9 - the four beasts and the 24 elders teach a sing - as in sing a song for the redeemed to learn.

Just as in Rev. 14 - a song is being taught from heaven to the 144,000 redeemed among men on the earth.

But the song the 144,000 sing no one knows except them. They were not being taught this song the 144,000 already new it.

As I said no one else knows the song and they will never know the song.

Revelation 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

DIZZY
Oct 11th 2008, 03:16 AM
I have to admit that I have been troubled by Rev 5:9 ever since you brought it up as support for a pre-trib rapture. So I checked the original greek and have been breaking the scripture down to try and understand it better. Basically I discovered that the word "us" (that appears after redeemed) doesn't exist in this scripture and changes the meaning of it considerably.....here is the whole verse broken down...

kai - and
adO - they sing, they are singing
OdE kainos - new song
legO - saying
axios eimi - you are worthy
lambanO - to receive
lo biblion - the small scroll
kai - and
anoigO - to open
ho sphragis- the seals
autos - of it
hoti - that
sphazO - (you) were slain
kai - and
agorazO - buy, purchase
ho theos - to God
en lo haima su - in (by) your blood
ek pas phulE- out of every tribe
kai - and
glOssa - language
kai - and
laos - people
kai - and
ethnos - language

As best as I can tell, here is what the verse actually says:

And they are singing a new song saying "You are Worthy to take the small scroll and to open it's seals. That you were slain and purchase to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"

Here is a link to an online interlinear, so you can see for yourself

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev5.pdf

Hi Crush,
I hope this helps to understand who the redeemed are and why it doesn't mention us as in us the redeemed after Revelation 5. The church is no longer there they have been raptured before the hour of trial that comes on the earth.


Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” ),
Revelation 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
And they sang a new song, saying: “ You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Revelation 3:10 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
God does not need to test those whom he has already redeemed. He tests those who are left on the earth. That;s what He says I am going to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church has already been through her test of faith and she has persevered so Christ takes His bride home.

Where not long after will be the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Lamb and His bride need guests to attend this supper. Who will be the guests?

Those who survive the hour of testing will be invited to the marraige supper of the Lamb and His Bride (the church).

there is a question posed at the end revelation 6 who is able to stand the judgment to come.

Revelation 6:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The answer to who can stand is followed up in Revelation 7, but I will ask this one thing.

If the church was still there would not the church be able to stand aswell as the 144,000.

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Is not the church sealed

2 Corinthians 2:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The day of our redemption comes before the tribulation period.

vinsight4u8
Oct 11th 2008, 12:51 PM
But the song the 144,000 sing no one knows except them. They were not being taught this song the 144,000 already new it.

As I said no one else knows the song and they will never know the song.

Revelation 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.


The 144,000 are being taught a song in Rev. 14.

Lamb
and the 144,000

heard a voice from heaven
heard the voice of harpers
they sung


There is a song as new coming down from heaven to where the 144,000 (among men on earth) learn the song.

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 04:05 PM
Hi Crush,
I hope this helps to understand who the redeemed are and why it doesn't mention us as in us the redeemed after Revelation 5. The church is no longer there they have been raptured before the hour of trial that comes on the earth.
God does not need to test those whom he has already redeemed. He tests those who are left on the earth. That;s what He says I am going to test those who dwell on the earth.
Everyone that accepts Christ has been "redeemed", purchased by his blood sacrifice. The beginning of the Great Tribulation isn't a magic boundary that nullifies Christ's sacrifice for those seeking salvation. IOW believers participating in the Great Tribulation are also purchased by Christ's blood.


The church has already been through her test of faith and she has persevered so Christ takes His bride home. There are only two ways that I know of that the "testing of faith" end for a believer. The believers death or the Return of Christ.


Where not long after will be the marriage supper of the Lamb. The Lamb and His bride need guests to attend this supper. Who will be the guests?The wise virgins....Believers faithful until Christ's second coming.


Those who survive the hour of testing will be invited to the marraige supper of the Lamb and His Bride (the church).I don't wish to derail this thread with a discussion about the identity of the bride, so I'll just say I disagree :)


there is a question posed at the end revelation 6 who is able to stand the judgment to come.No one is able to stand against God's wrath. That's why he orders the angels carrying out the judgment to only hurt beast worshippers, not his servants [Rev 9:4].


If the church was still there would not the church be able to stand aswell as the 144,000.Well "the church" (saints) wouldn't need to stand, because they would have been killed by the Beast prior to the pouring out of God's wrath, God's servants that remain aren't the focus of God's wrath....


Revelation 7:1-8
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Is not the church sealedYes, "the church" is sealed. Their exact number is known to God. And God waits until the last one is killed before he begins his Wrath.

Rev 6:11 ....until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled



The day of our redemption comes before the tribulation period.
You'll have to show me a scripture to support this statement

third hero
Oct 11th 2008, 04:54 PM
Quoting me - Who is the woman, and the man child of Revelation Chapter 12?

Quoting third hero - The woman is the nation who gave birth to Lord Jesus. Which nation gave birth to Lord Jesus? The man-child is revealed long before Revelation was written, and in fact, the writer used the man-child imagery to show the connection between the man-child in Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12. They are indeed the same person, the same Lord Jesus.

Response - May I then ask the parameters of the book of Revelation. I know the future is eternity, but in John's vision, how far back in time is he shown from the Lord's day and scripture if you have it?

My parameters of the book of Revelation is based on Matthew 24-25. Matthew 24 is the key to understanding all of the End-time prophecies. All of Revelation, with the only exception for the last 2 chapters, all must fall within the parameters set in Matthew 24. This chapter is what Lord Jesus actually said BEFORE He died. And thus all that was written afterward has to fall within those parameters.


Quoting third hero - Larry, show me in Matthew 24 the spot where the Church is taken to heaven. This is a classical assumption without collaboration.

Response - In Matthew 24 The Son is shown to come after the tribulation, and it is going to be a very visible appearing that all the tribes of the earth will see.

Here is my point, Larry2. The coming of the Lord, in Matthew 24:29-31, will be a very public event. It is there, when the Lord returns, when He dispatches His angels and gathers His people. Paul makes reference to this very event when He writes to the Thessalonians in chapter 4:15. Up until that point, the "you" in Matthew 24, (you, ye, thee, depending on the version), is still on earth with the purpose of spreading the Gospel and enduring until the end. The gathering, what you call the rapture, does not occur in Matthew 24 until "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Therefore, the rapture that you talk about does not happen at all in Matthew 24, and thus something or someone is in error. It is either the scriptures or the interpretor of those scriptures.


Quoting third hero - with every statement that you say, evidence from the Bible must be present, or else no one will accept it.

Response - With you we can use scripture only if possible. May I see scripture that shows Jesus was the man child? That John saw back from the Lord's day to the birth of Jesus. Revelation 1:1 shows the very context concerning time you so conveniently overlook. When God says "things which must shortly come to pass," when do you say this will be?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. -Isaiah 9:6

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Revelation 12:5

will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. -Psalm 2:7-9

The phrase, man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, is a reference to several OT scriptures. One, the man-child reference refers to Isaiah 9:6, when he proclaims that a child is born, a son, which the last time I checked refered to a male, otherwise known as a man who will rule all of the earth. In that same verse, that Son is called everything that we call Lord Jesus today.

The rod of iron reference refers back to Psalm 2, where the psalmist (namely David), tells us that the one who will break and rule the nations with a rod of Iron is the same who whom God will call His Son, which we all know from the moment that Lord Jesus was baptised that He is truly the one.

Thus the combination of those scriptures is where the man-child phrase originates from.


In Revelation 12:5 where the man child is caught up unto God, where is scripture do you ever see Jesus caught up unto God at birth, or maybe you do. I will certainly start having more confidence in your theology if you show that to me.

About 30 years after His birth, Satan attempted to have Him swallowed in the Sheol. Immediately after He was resurrected, He went to His Father, and is there to this day. It may not have been "immediately after he was born", but 30 years is not a long time, especially in the light of the Lord's eternal life.


If above you say that the woman in Revelation Chapter is Israel, and she gives birth to the man child and you believe that is Jesus, then is she hidden for 3 1/2 years from the birth of Jesus?

Let's get this straight. Revelation 12 is a sign. The portion of that chapter that deals with the Dragon and the Lord are actually retellings of what happened in the past. In the past, Israel gave birth to Lord Jesus, and the Dragon, who had already been cast down from heaven, sought to destroy Him. Shortly after He was born, (resurrected would be the better term, since it was His resurrected body that was carried off to heaven), he was taken to the Father in Heaven. The point was not that this was a literal event, but it is a sign to show all of heaven what was about to happen. The point of the man-child reference is to show why Israel has to go into hiding when the Dragon realized that his seat was lost forever, because the dragon will blame the woman, who gave birth to the man-child who will take his seat away, for the loss which he had, and thus will attempt to destroy her. God will then save her from his wrath, and then the followers of the man-child will be targeted next. This is the sign of the Great Tribulation, and nothing more than that.


Quoting third hero - the church is not in heaven when the time that is mentioned in Matthew 24 comes about.

Question - In your estimation according to scripture, when does Revelation Chapter 4 begin relative to Matthew Chapter 24 and Revelation Chapter 6? In other words, John shown things in Revelation Chapter 4 and are the events there ahead of those in Chapter 6?

Chapters 4 and 5 are there to show us exactly where John was transported to. Everything that he described was what He had seen while he was in heaven. It is my opinion that chapters 4 nad 5 of Revelation has nothing to do with any of the signs of the end times. It is therefore my opinion that the corelation between Matthew 24 and Revelation start with the breaking of the first seal, in chapter 6.


Quoting me - Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. This is during the tribulation and there are elect there." What elect can be deceived if they're all gone or hidden?

Quoting third hero - Under the premise that I have made, the saints are tested, and Israel is in hiding. Your assumption again brings about a question that no one can answer until you prove that the church is gone before the Tribulation. I am not going to believe what you say just because you said it. You are not Christ, and I am not about to just believe in anything. Evidence is the key here larry2.

Response - Forget it then third hero, I don't expect an answer to my questions above either - thanks anyway

In all that you have written, larry2, nothing in it proves that the church is anywhere in heaven before the great tribulation. IN fact, the word "church" ceases to appear in the text after Jesus gives the warnings to the seven churches of Asia. Afterward, we see the extended use of the word, "saint". Their under the altar, in heaven, having come outof the Great Tribulation, beheaded because of the word of God, and the testimony of Lord Jesus, and warred against. But nowhere is "the church" mentioned in Revelation at all. Why is that? Simple. Because God does not base salvation on the congregations of people. He base it on a person to person basis, and thus the need to use the word church is not necessary.

Moreover, Matthew 24 firmly places the "rapture" after the great Tribulation. 1Thessalonians 4:15 places the gathering in the air at the time of the Lord's return, otherwise known as the Coming of the Lord, which again refers back to Matthew 24 at the point when He comes, which again is immediately after the tribulation. Until you show one scripture that debunks this, I can not accept your claim that the church is raptured before the Great Tribulation.

third hero
Oct 11th 2008, 05:01 PM
Hi Crush,
I hope this helps to understand who the redeemed are and why it doesn't mention us as in us the redeemed after Revelation 5. The church is no longer there they have been raptured before the hour of trial that comes on the earth.


Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” ),
Revelation 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
And they sang a new song, saying: “ You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Revelation 3:10 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
God does not need to test those whom he has already redeemed. He tests those who are left on the earth. That;s what He says I am going to test those who dwell on the earth.

We are not redeemed from the earth. We are redeemed from the curse of sin, and we do not claim that redemption until the end, whether it be the end of our lives, or the end of the world. Moreover, Revelation 3:10 was designated not for the entire church, but rather for the church that underwent tribulation that was likened to the Great Tribulation, the church at Philadelphia. His promise was given to them, and them alone. We can not claim what the Lord did not direct our way. He did direct this quote our way though:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

I think I have made my point.




there is a question posed at the end revelation 6 who is able to stand the judgment to come.

Revelation 6:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The answer to who can stand is followed up in Revelation 7, but I will ask this one thing.

If the church was still there would not the church be able to stand aswell as the 144,000.

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Is not the church sealed

2 Corinthians 2:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



Good point.


The day of our redemption comes before the tribulation period.


According to Matthew 24, that day of redeption comes at His coming, which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 07:04 PM
Let's get this straight. Revelation 12 is a sign. The portion of that chapter that deals with the Dragon and the Lord are actually retellings of what happened in the past. In the past, Israel gave birth to Lord Jesus, and the Dragon, who had already been cast down from heaven, sought to destroy Him.
Satan had not been cast down from Heaven at the time of Christ's birth. If you will read ahead in Rev 12 [verses 9-12], you'll see that at the actual time that Satan is cast down, the way that he is overcome by the inhabitants of earth is by "the blood of the Lamb". So, at the time of Christ's birth - "the blood of the Lamb" wasn't available to mankind as a tool against Satan, because Christ had not died at the cross at the time of his birth.



Shortly after He was born, (resurrected would be the better term, since it was His resurrected body that was carried off to heaven), he was taken to the Father in Heaven. The implication of Rev 12:5-6 is that the "man-child" is caught up to heaven to protect him from Satan, who is standing before the woman to devour him as soon as he's born. After Christ's resurrection he was in no danger of being "devoured" by the devil, and his ascension to heaven was not to protect himself.

The only time-period that would fit here, where Jesus was protected from being killed, is the flight to Egypt. But of course at this time he wasn't "caught up to heaven"


This is the sign of the Great Tribulation, and nothing more than that.
From Rev 4:1 John is shown things that will happen "hereafter". Christ's birth, resurrection and ascension occurred before John's vision, so a history lesson in chapter 12 seems pretty out of place to me and contrary to Rev 4:1.

Before, During, or After the Great Tribulation the only evidence I've been able to find of anyone [living] being "caught up to heaven" [besides Christ, Enoch, Elijah, Paul?] is the 144,000, which are sealed on Earth [Rev 7:3] then appear before the throne in Heaven[Rev 14:3] during the Great Tribulation. And this "catching up" "to God and his Throne" fits very nicely in the context. And I really don't think that the "man-child" being the 144,000 is disruptive to the description of Rev 12:4, since they will probably rule (with Christ) the nations with a rod of iron, and they are born from the woman (ethnic Israel).

larry2
Oct 11th 2008, 09:29 PM
Dear third hero, all I can say to all that is WOW - You got me dead to rights and I give - You win :)

DigReal
Oct 11th 2008, 10:53 PM
Dear third hero, all I can say to all that is WOW - You got me dead to rights and I give - You win :)

Larry2, no, no, no. Don't concede. Both you and third hero (and others) have made very good points. Personally, I lean towards your POV, but I think you both should always be open to the other's POV. Besides, I'm about to post a question that I'd like to see everyone address. ;)

:hug: for all.

DigReal
Oct 11th 2008, 10:58 PM
All I can say is WOW! So much work has gone into this thread and I find it both inspirational and educational. God Bless you all for your efforts. There is so much analysis of Revelation... sure hope it all gets stored somewhere convenient for further study.

I have what seems like a simple question (that I read elsewhere), yet it also seems like the answer could change some of what has been posted thus far.

If the Church isn't raptured until after the trib, and non-believers are "taken away" then, who are the mortals that populate the millennium? Seems to me that a post trib view leaves no one left. Did I miss something after all this? :dunno:

I know the OP wasn't originally about rapture POV, but the POV seems to be where this thread has been the past couple of days. I'm presently still pre-trib, but leaning towards mid-trib. I also have reasons to want to believe post-trib, but need to know the answer to the above question before I can even consider it.

Thanks much, and God Bless!

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 12:37 AM
Dear DigReal; thanks. I have not given in to other's beliefs, only to endless debate of scripture I do not consider relevant to events as they happen. To narrow it down to what I do believe, it can be summed up to pre-tribulation, close to mid-tribulation, and a post-tribulation resurrection of those that are beheaded during the tribulation. Those that endure to the end of the tribulation will be saved alive and become witnesses to the nations during the millennium according to Matthew 28:18-20.

I believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 refers to those ready when the Lord comes as a thief in the night to catch us up to meet Him in the air. I have no reservations that this event does not fit the scripture in Matthew Chapter 24 where those present at that time suffer persecution, are told to flee, and don't even go back into your house to retrieve your coat, etc; that is a time of fear and tribulation, not one of great rejoicing of being kept from the tribulation.

I do have a thread prepared to post soon on my view of ranks in the resurrection that all will reject due to unfamiliarity with those concepts. Many things I have already brought forth lead to my conclusions.

crush
Oct 12th 2008, 02:35 AM
Dear DigReal; thanks. I have not given in to other's beliefs, only to endless debate of scripture I do not consider relevant to events as they happen
Sorry to see you bowing out of the discussion larry. Thx for your contributions!



I have what seems like a simple question (that I read elsewhere), yet it also seems like the answer could change some of what has been posted thus far.

If the Church isn't raptured until after the trib, and non-believers are "taken away" then, who are the mortals that populate the millennium? Seems to me that a post trib view leaves no one left. Did I miss something after all this? :dunno:

Everyone that opposes Israel during the tribulation isn't killed by the Lord at his coming. Some are spared and forced to come yearly and worship Him or suffer plagues....

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 06:05 AM
Dear third hero, all I can say to all that is WOW - You got me dead to rights and I give - You win :)

You know, I really can't stand sarcasm. What you call "needless debating", I call proving using scripture. 1 Thes 4:16-18 wasn't even breought in to the discussion, or else I would have invoked 1 Thes 4:15 as to show that there is a corelation, which is exactly when Christ said it to be, which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

It offends me that someone would bow out simply because his scriptures can not hold up to the scrutiny that ALL doctrines, theories, and ideas pertaining to scripture is to undergo.

What I have done with what you said, Larry2, is the same as I have done with my own beliefs, and those of everyone else that I have had contact with. I hold them against what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures. If my ideas, teachings, etc fall short of what Lord Jesus taught, then it is stricken and done away with. This is what we ALL are suppose to do, and not just simply hear a thing and believe it. There is a reason why these scriptures survived almost 2000 years, and part of that reason is to expose falsehood, and uplift the truth.

So, in all honesty, I do not care about "winning". If by winning, you end up being caught unprepared for the coming time of trouble, then I have lost, because the parable of the 10 virgins would come into effect. And the Lord knows I do not want that to happen.

Hope for the best; be prepared for the worst.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 05:29 PM
Dear third hero, I truly do not mean to just give in, but sometimes I feel as if I'm beating my head against a wall and debate does not seem to go forward; not one point. It may be due to debating too many different points of contention at the same time. If you want, I will limit each point individually until we settle that before going on, and if not I will understand without prejudice. Thanks.

Quoting third hero - We are not redeemed from the earth. We are redeemed from the curse of sin

Response - Rev. 14:3. "the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Agreed or not?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 12th 2008, 06:39 PM
Dear third hero, I truly do not mean to just give in, but sometimes I feel as if I'm beating my head against a wall and debate does not seem to go forward; not one point. It may be due to debating too many different points of contention at the same time. If you want, I will limit each point individually until we settle that before going on, and if not I will understand without prejudice. Thanks.

Quoting third hero - We are not redeemed from the earth. We are redeemed from the curse of sin

Response - Rev. 14:3. "the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Agreed or not?

I am not the moderator... but this may be a more intelligent form of debate (this singular approach to each point etc..)
Especially as we have such a good thread going.

quiet dove
Oct 12th 2008, 07:15 PM
I am not the moderator... but this may be a more intelligent form of debate (this singular approach to each point etc..)
Especially as we have such a good thread going.

Moderator just thinks everyone needs to play nice. :spin:

sorry, couldn't resisit.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 07:23 PM
Could we redo your user name into "Rascally Dove"? :rofl:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 12th 2008, 07:24 PM
Could we redo your user name into "Rascally Dove"? :rofl:
here here :spin:

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 07:34 PM
Quoting third hero - We are not redeemed from the earth. We are redeemed from the curse of sin

Response - Rev. 14:3. "the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Agreed or not?

Yes, I agree. They, the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth.

quiet dove
Oct 12th 2008, 07:49 PM
Could we redo your user name into "Rascally Dove"? :rofl:

I was kinda thinking pesky buzzard. :lol:

I hope you guys realize you are all very important to me and on my mind frequently every day. :hug:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 12th 2008, 07:56 PM
I was kinda thinking pesky buzzard. :lol:

I hope you guys realize you are all very important to me and on my mind frequently every day. :hug:

Yeah yeah.. we love you too;)

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 08:02 PM
I was kinda thinking pesky buzzard. :lol:

I hope you guys realize you are all very important to me and on my mind frequently every day. :hug:
Group HUG!:hug:

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 08:52 PM
Quoting third hero - We are not redeemed from the earth. We are redeemed from the curse of sin

Response - Rev. 14:3. "the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Agreed or not?

Quoting third hero -Yes, I agree. They, the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth.

New question then -I see where there could still be a difference in your answer because that was too easy. Since you agree the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, are you of the same opinion that we are not redeemed from the earth, and why please?

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 10:15 PM
New question then -I see where there could still be a difference in your answer because that was too easy. Since you agree the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, are you of the same opinion that we are not redeemed from the earth, and why please?

You asked for it.

According to scripture, something is suppose to happpen before the Lord comes. This was outlines at least 450 years before the Lord's first Advent.

Zechariah 14:1-5.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

Was there a series of events that happened in that exact order, where Jerusalem is attacked, the Mount of Olives was split, the remnant run through that Mountain valley and the Lord comes?

Answer? Well, is the Mount of Olives one mount or two?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MtolivesviewC.jpg

Well, since the Mount is still only one mountain, then this event has not happened yet. This brings about a very interesting question. How is the Lord going to step on the Mount of Olives and split it BEFORE He comes with His saints?

I mean, Jesus did say this:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

But it also says the the Lord will step His foot on the Mount of Olives, and it will split, and the Lord will then come, with His saints. So, we have a quandry here.

If He shows up on the Mount of Olives, then that point will have to be recognized as the point when the Lord returns, right? Well, every eye would be able to see Him, since he would clearly be visible at the Mount of Olives. I mean, a man with light coming from His body, it would be kinda hard not to notice Him, even if there are others there that are merely humansd like us. But He said, "they will see Him coming in clouds of heaven".

So, if He comes to the Mount of Olives and split it and people see Him, then He will have no choice but to be called a liar. On the Mount of Olives is not the same as being in midair. So, since the Lord Himself is comissioned to split the Mount, courtesy of that very verse in Zechariah, then He has to either find a way to hide Himself, or else send an angel.

But, it says that the Lord will set HIS FEET on the Mount, and so if He sends an Angel, then that prophecy would be unfulfilled. Sure, the Mount would split, but in order for the prophecy to be a true one, the Lord has to be the One who does the deed, with His feet. And so Zechariah would be labeled as a false prophet, or otherwise the Lord Himself would be considered as one who says one thing, and does another, and the "yeay and amen" thing would be meaningless.

Enter the 144,000. If they are redeemed from the earth, then they would have the same bodies as Him, and thus the Lord Himself could blend in, and not everyone would see Him, but rather the 144,000 like Him.

Here's how I figured that out.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Now, the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, correct? If this is true, and it is, then why is this ststement, highlighted in red, written? The highlighted part is there to show us that these are not just 144,000 random people chosen from Israel, but 144,000 virgin males, JUST LIKE JESUS! Jesus, while He was on earth the first time, never "knew" a woman. He died a virgin. If He is to be disguised among 144,000 people, I guess that He would rather be disguised among men just like Him.

But wait, there's more.

And I looked, and, lo, a [B]Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. -Revelation 14:1

Well, ain't that interesting. What is a "LAMB" and His 144,000 doing in Jerusalem?

Answer? Fulfilling Zechariah 14:4-5a.

You see, if the Lord appears in Jerusalem with 144,000 men that look like Him, then no one can say and be conclusive that they have "seen" Lord Jesus. They may have, but with 144,000 look-a-likes, the chances of actually seeing Him are 1 in 144,001. Not very good odds if you ask me.

And so, the 144,000 have to be redeemed in order to mask the Lord as He splits the Mount of Olives when the Beast becomes the Abomination that causes Desolation. He will thus do the one thing that mst be done to save all of Israel, and fulfil the OT and NT prophecies concerning Israel's restoration to him.

And so you see, larry2, just because I believe that the 144,000 will be redeemed from the earth at thte sign of the blood-moon, does not mean that I believe that we will be raptured when they will. I still hold to the belief that the elder's explanation of the multitudes that no man can number, are those who come out of the Great Tribulation. And last time I checked, before you can come out of something, you first have to be in it.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 11:26 PM
Dear third hero, I'll have to think and study on what you have said concerning the 144,000 masking the Lord Jesus at some later time, though that doesn't change who they are and when they are raptured. I think you have that down pretty well.

Quoting third hero - And so, the 144,000 have to be redeemed in order to mask the Lord as He splits the Mount of Olives when the Beast becomes the Abomination that causes Desolation. He will thus do the one thing that must be done to save all of Israel, and fulfil the OT and NT prophecies concerning Israel's restoration to him.

Response - For the 144,000 to be with Christ when the abomination of desolations is revealed which happens in the middle of the tribulation, they must be raptured prior to that, and I agree with that.

Quoting third hero - And so you see, larry2, just because I believe that the 144,000 will be redeemed from the earth at the sign of the blood-moon, does not mean that I believe that we will be raptured when they will.

Response - So you do believe there will be different raptures as in red in you response above? That sort of puts a problem of everyone being in a post-trib resurrection doesn't it?

Quoting third hero - I still hold to the belief that the elder's explanation of the multitudes that no man can number, are those who come out of the Great Tribulation. And last time I checked, before you can come out of something, you first have to be in it.

Response - I agree they came out of great tribulation, and to come out of it they are no longer in it, and then the Philadelphia saints are said to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

Thanks in Jesus' name

third hero
Oct 13th 2008, 01:24 AM
Quoting third hero - And so you see, larry2, just because I believe that the 144,000 will be redeemed from the earth at the sign of the blood-moon, does not mean that I believe that we will be raptured when they will.

Response - So you do believe there will be different raptures as in red in you response above? That sort of puts a problem of everyone being in a post-trib resurrection doesn't it?



Not really. I do not see the sealing and removing of the 144,000 as a "rapture", mainly because they are 1, of one ethnicity, 2, of one gender, 3, are redeemed for a specific purpose, and 4, are redeemed by angels, without the Lord being in the air when they are redeemed. In fact, I would venture to say that these 144,000 are pre-determined, meaning that they, like some of us here, have been chosen for that very purpose, and they can not escape it.

Also, I would also like to concur with you that the sealing of the 144,000 is definitely pre-trib, because they need to be at Mount Zion with Lord Jesus long before the abomination that causes desolation.

So unless you are a believing Israelite virgin man, you are NOT going to be "raptured" before the Great Tribulation.

crush
Oct 13th 2008, 02:06 AM
So, if He comes to the Mount of Olives and split it and people see Him, then He will have no choice but to be called a liar. On the Mount of Olives is not the same as being in midair. So, since the Lord Himself is comissioned to split the Mount, courtesy of that very verse in Zechariah, then He has to either find a way to hide Himself, or else send an angel.

But, it says that the Lord will set HIS FEET on the Mount, and so if He sends an Angel, then that prophecy would be unfulfilled. Sure, the Mount would split, but in order for the prophecy to be a true one, the Lord has to be the One who does the deed, with His feet. And so Zechariah would be labeled as a false prophet, or otherwise the Lord Himself would be considered as one who says one thing, and does another, and the "yeay and amen" thing would be meaningless.

Enter the 144,000. If they are redeemed from the earth, then they would have the same bodies as Him, and thus the Lord Himself could blend in, and not everyone would see Him, but rather the 144,000 like Him.

Here's how I figured that out.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Now, the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, correct? If this is true, and it is, then why is this ststement, highlighted in red, written? The highlighted part is there to show us that these are not just 144,000 random people chosen from Israel, but 144,000 virgin males, JUST LIKE JESUS! Jesus, while He was on earth the first time, never "knew" a woman. He died a virgin. If He is to be disguised among 144,000 people, I guess that He would rather be disguised among men just like Him.

But wait, there's more.

And I looked, and, lo, a [B]Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. -Revelation 14:1

Well, ain't that interesting. What is a "LAMB" and His 144,000 doing in Jerusalem?

Answer? Fulfilling Zechariah 14:4-5a.

You see, if the Lord appears in Jerusalem with 144,000 men that look like Him, then no one can say and be conclusive that they have "seen" Lord Jesus. They may have, but with 144,000 look-a-likes, the chances of actually seeing Him are 1 in 144,001. Not very good odds if you ask me.

And so, the 144,000 have to be redeemed in order to mask the Lord as He splits the Mount of Olives when the Beast becomes the Abomination that causes Desolation. He will thus do the one thing that mst be done to save all of Israel, and fulfil the OT and NT prophecies concerning Israel's restoration to him.I'm unclear as to why you believe that the Lord stepping on the Mount of Olives occurs at the time of the Abomination of Desolation? Isn't the AofD the beginning of the Beast's "war against the saints"? [Dan 11:31-] At the time of Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives he also begins his war against the nations that are attacking and surrounding Israel right? And as you can see, he had already fought a battle previous to this one, since the battle the Lord fights against the nations surrounding Israel is compared to the time he fought in the "day of battle" which is armageddon [Rev 16:14]

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

I mean, that would be nice, but that wouldn't leave any time for the actual Tribulation or Wrath that follows the AofD. I apologize if I'm not following your timeline of events correctly.

Okay, NM, I think you believe that the order for those in Judea to "flee into the mountains" in Matt 24 is the same event as when the Israelites flee into the valley of the mountain created by the earthquake in Zec 14:5. I don't think it's the same

third hero
Oct 13th 2008, 07:00 PM
I'm unclear as to why you believe that the Lord stepping on the Mount of Olives occurs at the time of the Abomination of Desolation? Isn't the AofD the beginning of the Beast's "war against the saints"? [Dan 11:31-] At the time of Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives he also begins his war against the nations that are attacking and surrounding Israel right? And as you can see, he had already fought a battle previous to this one, since the battle the Lord fights against the nations surrounding Israel is compared to the time he fought in the "day of battle" which is armageddon [Rev 16:14]

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

I mean, that would be nice, but that wouldn't leave any time for the actual Tribulation or Wrath that follows the AofD. I apologize if I'm not following your timeline of events correctly.

Okay, NM, I think you believe that the order for those in Judea to "flee into the mountains" in Matt 24 is the same event as when the Israelites flee into the valley of the mountain created by the earthquake in Zec 14:5. I don't think it's the same
You have to understand, Lord Jesus is the only one who can split the Mount of Olives. He can not be seen, or else that moment would become the Coming of the Lord, which even in Zechariah 14, comes after this event happens. Hence the need for 144,000. They are to hide the Lord, while showing the world that the Lord is there.

Also, in Revelation 12, Israel flees to the wilderness, a place prepared by God, to protect her for the duration of the Great Tribulation, 3.5 years. It does saythat the Lord goes to war against the nations, and He begins by helping us while the Beast wages war against us.

To me, this thought brings about a hope that I had not previously felt. To see the Lord still heere on earth, with the 144,000 with Him, gives me hope that we actually have a chance during the Great Tribulation. If He is with us, and the 144,000 are with Him, then we will have help when the world attempts to extinguish us. He will fight for us, while the Beast fights against us during the Great Tribulation. Then, when the period of suffering is over, Our Heavenly Father will give the command, and Lord Jesus will descend from heaven, and finish off the nations who fought against Him both at Jerusalem, and against Him all over the world.

I know that this is difficult for many to understand, but consider this. Jesus appeared before Saul, even after He ascended to heaven. This shows that He has the right to come and go as He pleases, with one exception. He can not appear publically by Himself. What I mean by this is that Lord Jesus can not simply come to earth and appear before all mankind, since that is reserved for His Return. That is why only Saul seen Him, when the others did not see Him at all, but rather a blinding light. If He shows up at the Mount of Olives, and the 144,000 is with Him, then He is not seen, but rather He is in the midst of the 144,000. And the world can behold the 144,000, but unless they were either Peter James or John, they will not be able to pick out Him from the others, something that John, the writer in Revelation, was able to do. (Revelation 14:1). Therefore, we will not know which one on the Mount is Lord Jesus, and thus the second coming is preserved until the end of the Tribulation of those days.

crush
Oct 13th 2008, 10:02 PM
You have to understand, Lord Jesus is the only one who can split the Mount of Olives. He can not be seen, or else that moment would become the Coming of the Lord, which even in Zechariah 14, comes after this event happens. Hence the need for 144,000. They are to hide the Lord, while showing the world that the Lord is there.
The question the disciples asked in Matt 24 was "`Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy coming and of the full end of the age?' So as soon as he answers the question and tells the sign of his appearance and the reward/punishment of his worthy/worthless servants (sheep and goats) that survived the Trib, the age is over, and the question is answered.

His appearance in Jerusalem, where he splits open the Mt. of Olives isn't mentioned in Matt 24, because it happens some time after all this, and isn't part of this present "age". The scriptures in Zech that you are using to prove your point, actually disprove it (I'll explain later)

At the time of Christ's appearance, the one where every eye sees him, he does a couple of notable things: He resurrects the martys, "gathers the elect" from around the world to meet him and he defeats the Beast at the Valley of Armageddon. With his wedding guest in tow, he heads back to heaven to have his marriage celebration.

So the Beast is defeated, however, the Tribulation (for Israel) doesn't end at this point. Because God had gathered armies in two places. At Armageddon [Rev 16:16](now a boneyard) and around Jerusalem [Zec 14:2]. Even though the Beast is defeated, the other "kings" that were in cahoots with the Beast are allowed to continue their evil doing for a little while longer - these are the ones surrounding Jerusalem.

They overtake Jerusalem and begin slaughtering people - etc. I guess the Lord leaves them forsaken in their troubles until they all cry out for him. And then Christ comes back, steps foot on the Mount of Olives and starts Battling the ones that are attacking Jerusalem.

This is the Zech verse that proves this timeline is correct:

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

When the Lord steps on the Mt. of Olives, he had already fought a historical battle....because the Battle of the Mt. of Olives is compared to it.

The "day of battle" is mentioned in Rev...

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

So what Zech 14:3 is saying is that the Lord will fight the same way at the Battle of Jerusalem (Where he splits the Mt. of Olives) as he did at the Battle of Armageddon.

If, as you say, the Lord's battle at the Mt. of Olives begins at the AofD, when was the Lord's "day of battle" that happened before this, that Zech is talking about?



Also, in Revelation 12, Israel flees to the wilderness, a place prepared by God, to protect her for the duration of the Great Tribulation, 3.5 years. It does saythat the Lord goes to war against the nations, and He begins by helping us while the Beast wages war against us.I agree that the woman (Israel) of Rev 12 is the same as those (with understanding) that flee to the mountains in Mat 24:16.

I disagree that the place they flee to is the "valley" created by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives.

1) the Israelites that flee in Matt 24 head to "mountains", in Rev 12 it is called "wilderness". The fleeing Israelites at the Mt. of Olives flee into a "valley" and it isn't in the Wilderness it's in Jerusalem. So it's pretty much the exact opposite.

2) They aren't protected for 3 1/2 years in the valley of the mountain, since this is the last battle of the Tribulation, it's just a short time they have to hide from their attackers in the valley.

3) Christ would be distinguishable from all other people (including the 144,000) because we are given a description of him in Rev 1:13-17. And I would say he's the kind of guy that "stands out in a crowd" LOL


To me, this thought brings about a hope that I had not previously felt. To see the Lord still heere on earth, with the 144,000 with Him, gives me hope that we actually have a chance during the Great Tribulation. If He is with us, and the 144,000 are with Him, then we will have help when the world attempts to extinguish us. He will fight for us, while the Beast fights against us during the Great Tribulation. Then, when the period of suffering is over, Our Heavenly Father will give the command, and Lord Jesus will descend from heaven, and finish off the nations who fought against Him both at Jerusalem, and against Him all over the world.Our hope isn't that our lives will be spared, or that we won't have to suffer. Our hope is that if we are faithful through our suffering we will receive the promises of the Lord. If Jesus came down and started fighting at the start of the Tribulation, there wouldn't be a Tribulation at all.


I know that this is difficult for many to understand, but consider this. Jesus appeared before Saul, even after He ascended to heaven. This shows that He has the right to come and go as He pleases, with one exception. He can not appear publically by Himself. What I mean by this is that Lord Jesus can not simply come to earth and appear before all mankind, since that is reserved for His Return. That is why only Saul seen Him, when the others did not see Him at all, but rather a blinding light. If He shows up at the Mount of Olives, and the 144,000 is with Him, then He is not seen, but rather He is in the midst of the 144,000. And the world can behold the 144,000, but unless they were either Peter James or John, they will not be able to pick out Him from the others, something that John, the writer in Revelation, was able to do. (Revelation 14:1). Therefore, we will not know which one on the Mount is Lord Jesus, and thus the second coming is preserved until the end of the Tribulation of those days.Jesus can do whatever he wants too, I won't argue there. He could tap dance on Satan's skull all day if he wanted too. But he told us what he IS going to do, and that's what we should stick with.

DIZZY
Oct 19th 2008, 08:25 AM
Everyone that accepts Christ has been "redeemed", purchased by his blood sacrifice. The beginning of the Great Tribulation isn't a magic boundary that nullifies Christ's sacrifice for those seeking salvation. IOW believers participating in the Great Tribulation are also purchased by Christ's blood.

There are only two ways that I know of that the "testing of faith" end for a believer. The believers death or the Return of Christ.

The wise virgins....Believers faithful until Christ's second coming.

I don't wish to derail this thread with a discussion about the identity of the bride, so I'll just say I disagree :)

No one is able to stand against God's wrath. That's why he orders the angels carrying out the judgment to only hurt beast worshippers, not his servants [Rev 9:4].

Well "the church" (saints) wouldn't need to stand, because they would have been killed by the Beast prior to the pouring out of God's wrath, God's servants that remain aren't the focus of God's wrath....

Yes, "the church" is sealed. Their exact number is known to God. And God waits until the last one is killed before he begins his Wrath.

Rev 6:11 ....until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

You'll have to show me a scripture to support this statement

Hi Crush,

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 24:30-32
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe these two verses are talking about the same event. They tell me that those who are Christ's elect will go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. Do you believe that they enter the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies?

During the millennial reign there will be children born to those in the kingdom some will obey the Lord others will disobey.

crush
Oct 19th 2008, 01:59 PM
Hi Crush,

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 24:30-32
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe these two verses are talking about the same event. They tell me that those who are Christ's elect will go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. Do you believe that they enter the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies?

During the millennial reign there will be children born to those in the kingdom some will obey the Lord others will disobey.
I agree that these two verses are talking about the same event, but where you see that Christ's faithful servants remain mortal at his coming is lost on me. 1Co 15:51-55 promises that those believer's that are faithful to Christ's coming will be changed into immortality.

The "wheat" is gathered into the "barn" in two ways. When the Beast kills a martyr, the martyr is "gathered up" to heaven [Rev 6:9] and at Christ's second coming the "elect" are "gathered up" to meet Christ in the air.

The angels gather the wicked of the earth into two bundles: One at Armageddon [Rev 16:16] and another at Jerusalem [Zec 14:2]. The angels don't burn them at that time, they just gather them there. Then the "elect" are gathered up from around the world to meet Christ in the air above the Valley of Armageddon where they help burn the wicked tares. This explains "who" is invited to Christ's wedding supper and "what" the wedding supper is.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

So the "supper" is the battle of Armageddon and the"fowls that are flying in the [middle] heavens" are the invited guests. Since the "elect" had just been gathered from the earth and are "flying" at this time, they are called to the place where Jesus is also "flying" they are the invited "fowls". Rev 19:17 is the "catching away" or "gathering" of the elect that are "alive and remain" faithful to Christ's second coming. So the airspace above the "valley of Armageddon" is the staging area where Jesus will assemble his army of immortal saints taken, in one way or another, out of the Great Tribulation. The marytrs and the "elect" who have suffered greatly at the hand of the Beast, and were overcome by him, will now be given a chance by Jesus to participate in his destruction.

Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint

While the Beast and all wicked at Armageddon are destroyed in the first bundle, not all of the nations that surround Jerusalem in the second bundle are destroyed. Some of the army is taken into captivity and not killed, and of course, some of the people in the "nations that surround Jerusalem" don't show up for battle at all, not being of fighting age, probably women, the elderly, etc.....

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The remnant of the "second bundle", the "nations that surround Jerusalem" are the seed of the Gentile millenium nations.

third hero
Oct 19th 2008, 03:13 PM
The question the disciples asked in Matt 24 was "`Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy coming and of the full end of the age?' So as soon as he answers the question and tells the sign of his appearance and the reward/punishment of his worthy/worthless servants (sheep and goats) that survived the Trib, the age is over, and the question is answered.

His appearance in Jerusalem, where he splits open the Mt. of Olives isn't mentioned in Matt 24, because it happens some time after all this, and isn't part of this present "age". The scriptures in Zech that you are using to prove your point, actually disprove it (I'll explain later)

At the time of Christ's appearance, the one where every eye sees him, he does a couple of notable things: He resurrects the martys, "gathers the elect" from around the world to meet him and he defeats the Beast at the Valley of Armageddon. With his wedding guest in tow, he heads back to heaven to have his marriage celebration.

So the Beast is defeated, however, the Tribulation (for Israel) doesn't end at this point. Because God had gathered armies in two places. At Armageddon [Rev 16:16](now a boneyard) and around Jerusalem [Zec 14:2]. Even though the Beast is defeated, the other "kings" that were in cahoots with the Beast are allowed to continue their evil doing for a little while longer - these are the ones surrounding Jerusalem.

Ok, let's start here. Now I understand the nature of your disagreement, crush, and I have to agree with the premise that the splitting of the Mount of Olives is not mentioned in Matthew 24. However, it is my opinion that the event that Christ was talking about is described in Revelation 12:13-16. IN that scenario, the dragon unleashes a flood with the hope of drowning the fleeing woman, who is identified as Israel, in verse 13. Here's where scripture says after that.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:15-17

IN this instance, the dragon goes after the woman, and when the earth opened her mouth and provided the means of escape for the woman, the dragon became exceedingly angry, and focused his attack against the seed of Israel, which is identified as theose who hold to the testimony of Lord Jesus, us.

Now, I made the connection between this sign here in Revelation 12 to Matthew 24, because if we synchronize Matthew 24:15-22 and Revelation 12:13-17, we have the same conflict. It is the Massacre at Jerusalem followed by the Great Tribulation. (Revelation 12:17 and Matthew 24:21 is the key). What we see is two retellings of the same event, with one mentioning the Abomination that causes desolation followed by an attack against Jerusalem and afterwards the Great Tribulation. The Revelation event has the earth opening her mouth to save the woman who is fleeing from the flood that the dragon unleashed against her, followed by the Great Tribulation. Although some of the details are different, the sequence is the same.

Now let's move to Zechariah 14:1-5. We see that Jerusalem is attacked, and the Lord rises to fight the nations by opening up the Mount of Olives, and allowing te escapees to escape the hordes of armies that are attacking Israel at that time. After that, the Lord comes, which we can say is the return of the Lord.

Now we have, according to Zechariah 14, the city is attacked, the Lord opens the Mount of Olives, and afterwards the Lord return. Synchronize Zechariah 14:1-5 with Matthew 24 and Revelation 12:13-19:20, and suddenly, IMHO, we have the entire picture of the events starting with the Massacre at Jerusalem followed by the Great Tribulation and afterwards the Return of the Lord. (With the fact that in both Zechariah 14 and Revelation 12:15-17 versions, the earth is moved in order to aid in the escape of Israel.) And so I figured that the Revelation 12:13-17 is the retelling of th sign of the abomination that causes desolation and the massacre at Jerusalem, followed by the beginning of the Great Tribulation.


They overtake Jerusalem and begin slaughtering people - etc. I guess the Lord leaves them forsaken in their troubles until they all cry out for him. And then Christ comes back, steps foot on the Mount of Olives and starts Battling the ones that are attacking Jerusalem.

Not at all. The Israelites, according to Revelation 12:6 and 14, flee to a place prepared for her by God, and shall be protected during the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation. It is there where Zechariah 12:10-14 comes to pass, and every one of the remnant of Israel is saved, because the blinders would be off, and after seeing the Lord and His 144,000 literally saving them from total anihilation, they will mourn and be bitter over their betrayal against God, and thus shall be saved.

Now I know what your next question is. When do the 144,000 come into play here? The only place that the 144,000 comes into play is while all of the main characters of the Great Tribulation are introduced, starting at chapter 14:1. They appear with the Lamb at Sion, where the Mount of OLives are. They sing a song that no one else could sing, and thus the people of Israel who are fleeing the armies of the beast willl hear this song. Who's willing to bet that Lord Jesus's name will come up several times during the singing of that song that will split the Mount of Olives in half? I'll put my life on that. How else will those who escape the Massacre at Jerusalem repent of their sins, unless they know that the One who saved them from death is the very same one that their forefathers told them to reject?

Also, with 144,000 look-a-likes, no one can actually say that they seen the Lord come and split the Mount, but only the 144,000. Remember, the only ones who could have recognized Lord Jesus are either in heaven as one of the eloders, (which I doubt because John did not recognize them, although he did recognize Lord Jesus several times in Revelation, hence the Lamb references), or are under the altar praying for the Lord to take vengeance for their blood which was spilt by the wicked of the earth. John recognized Him at Sion where the 144,000 were, but He is not with us right now. He is sleeping, awaiting Judgment day and the reward at New Jerusalem. Therefore, the Lord comes, but not as He said He would come, which leaves room for Him to descend from Heaven at the appointed time, and thus collect us survivors of the Great Tribulation as well as the Tribulation saints who were victorious against the beast, and lost their heads because of that victory.

Really, I know that this is a difficult concept to believe, and many will initially reject it, but do the research and see if you do not come to the same conclusion. If not, then I am all ears on your rebuttle.


This is the Zech verse that proves this timeline is correct:

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

When the Lord steps on the Mt. of Olives, he had already fought a historical battle....because the Battle of the Mt. of Olives is compared to it.

Remember, the Lord has to go out into battle against the nations, because He said that there will be survivors who will be picked up at the end, when He returns. If He does not go into battle for our sakes, then what will we do? There will be no hope for us, since we would have no help. The Great Tribulation is nothing short of the entire earth swarming against us, seeking either our conversion, or our lives. Thre is a reason why an innumerable amount of people were in heaven with palm branches who have come out of the Great Tribulation, because the enemy, Satan and his Beast, will attempt to duplicate the Massacre at Jerusalem over the entire earth, with us, the believers, being the target. Many will die, and lose their lives for the sake of Lord Jesus. IF Jesus does not fight for our sakes, and protect those who are destined to live until He returns, how will there be any survivors? Simply put, there will not be.

Also, how else would the remnant of Israel be protected, unless the Lord fights and protects them? I do not see the Lord fighting against the nations in Zechariah 14:3 as the point in time when the Lord returns and defeats the Beast along with His armies. I see that happening at His return, which Revelation 19:11-21 confirms. There is no other battle other than the burial of the armies of the world at Megiddo when the Lord returns. He will judge the nations after He defeats the armies of the world and give to the birds a great feast of the wicked. The rest of the world, the wicked in it, are stricken with a plague, which Zechariah 14:12 thoroughly explains, which will kill them, with the remnant f the families of th earth taking tribute to the Lord at Jerusalem every year until the end of the world.

And so, when the Lord rises up to do battle, He is actually rising up to protect us, because we are going to need it.


The "day of battle" is mentioned in Rev...

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

So what Zech 14:3 is saying is that the Lord will fight the same way at the Battle of Jerusalem (Where he splits the Mt. of Olives) as he did at the Battle of Armageddon.

If, as you say, the Lord's battle at the Mt. of Olives begins at the AofD, when was the Lord's "day of battle" that happened before this, that Zech is talking about?


I see your logic here, and it is feesible. However, I do not believe that the great battle at Megiddo happens right after the AoD. Where I see the Lord rising up to do battle, I believe it is Him rising up to defend us. This war that the Beast will wage against the saints is not merely a physical war alone. This will encompass the heavenlies as well, because all of the armies of Satan wil be against us, to directly exterminate us from the planet. The only way that we have a chance of surviving longer than one day during the Great Tribulation is by God aiding us in our fight against the Beast. Remember, the beast wages war against the saints, and if we have no defense, then we are toast. Lord Jesus is that defense, and every one that dies for Him, He will be there, helping them along the way, and to the survivors, He will be defending them until either the Father calls Him to come to heaven to prepare for the final showdown, (in other words, when God calls Him to heaven to get dressed, after all, He has to put on a lot of crowns and clean white linen, so that when He appears in the physical world, every eye shall see Him), or when those survivors die victorious against the Beast.


I agree that the woman (Israel) of Rev 12 is the same as those (with understanding) that flee to the mountains in Mat 24:16.

I disagree that the place they flee to is the "valley" created by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives.

1) the Israelites that flee in Matt 24 head to "mountains", in Rev 12 it is called "wilderness". The fleeing Israelites at the Mt. of Olives flee into a "valley" and it isn't in the Wilderness it's in Jerusalem. So it's pretty much the exact opposite.

2) They aren't protected for 3 1/2 years in the valley of the mountain, since this is the last battle of the Tribulation, it's just a short time they have to hide from their attackers in the valley.

3) Christ would be distinguishable from all other people (including the 144,000) because we are given a description of him in Rev 1:13-17. And I would say he's the kind of guy that "stands out in a crowd" LOL

Our hope isn't that our lives will be spared, or that we won't have to suffer. Our hope is that if we are faithful through our suffering we will receive the promises of the Lord. If Jesus came down and started fighting at the start of the Tribulation, there wouldn't be a Tribulation at all.

Jesus can do whatever he wants too, I won't argue there. He could tap dance on Satan's skull all day if he wanted too. But he told us what he IS going to do, and that's what we should stick with.

I understand what you are saying here, crush, and I know that what I presented is difficult to accept. Honestly, I do not want you or anyone else to take my word for it. Do the research, see if eveything that I am saying checks out, and, like you are doing here, give voice to your concerns and possible flaws to my logic that you see. This is how we get to the truth, and the Lord is guiding us all of the way.

Now for the distinction bettween the Lord and the 144,000. The Lord shows up in Jerusalem not as the conquering King, but the Lamb, and John calls Him that because He recognizes Him from when He rose from the dead. IF there are others who are redeemed, with the same body as Him, then it would be extremely difficult to pick Him out of a crowd, especially a crowd of 144,000 virgin men that look like Him. Also, even though the 144,000 would still be with Him when He makes His Glorious return, it is then, when He is wearing the diadem and the sword in His mouth, riding a white Horse and being the only source of light throughout the entire universe, will He become distinct, whereas all have no choice but to say, It's HIM, and quake in terror. (for the wicked anyway).

Now for the wilderness thought. Israel was "in the wilderness" for 40 years, although that wilderness was a desert. In my opinion, the "wilderness" that Lord Jeuss is talking about is a place uninhabited, which could mean the woods, the mountains, the valley of the mountain, (which would be uninhabited if the valley was just made), or a desert, which is around that area. the wilderness does not have to be wood, it just has to be wild.

ANd lastly, for your second point. According to Revelation 12:13-16, they are protected by God for a time, times, and a half of time. This is code from the book of Daniel, whereas the term time represent one year, times represents one year times 2, and a half of a time stands for 1/2 of a year. These are the 2.5 years of the Great Tribulation, and so God does protect them for that long.

crush
Oct 19th 2008, 05:25 PM
Ok, let's start here. Now I understand the nature of your disagreement, crush, and I have to agree with the premise that the splitting of the Mount of Olives is not mentioned in Matthew 24. However, it is my opinion that the event that Christ was talking about is described in Revelation 12:13-16. IN that scenario, the dragon unleashes a flood with the hope of drowning the fleeing woman, who is identified as Israel, in verse 13. Here's where scripture says after that.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:15-17

IN this instance, the dragon goes after the woman, and when the earth opened her mouth and provided the means of escape for the woman, the dragon became exceedingly angry, and focused his attack against the seed of Israel, which is identified as theose who hold to the testimony of Lord Jesus, us.


Now, I made the connection between this sign here in Revelation 12 to Matthew 24, because if we synchronize Matthew 24:15-22 and Revelation 12:13-17, we have the same conflict. It is the Massacre at Jerusalem followed by the Great Tribulation. (Revelation 12:17 and Matthew 24:21 is the key). What we see is two retellings of the same event, with one mentioning the Abomination that causes desolation followed by an attack against Jerusalem and afterwards the Great Tribulation. The Revelation event has the earth opening her mouth to save the woman who is fleeing from the flood that the dragon unleashed against her, followed by the Great Tribulation. Although some of the details are different, the sequence is the same.
I'll admit right off the bat that I don't have all the symbolism of Rev 12 nailed down completely, but here's the way I see it.

When Satan is cast down he has 3 targets:

1) his primary target is the "man-child". The "man-child" is "caught up" to heaven so he (they) aren't harmed by Satan whatsoever.

2) his secondary target is the "Woman that gives birth to the man-child". We both agree that this is Ethnic Israel and she flee's to a place that God prepares for her, to be protected for the duration of the Tribulation. I would add that only "those with understanding" of what the AofD is have the understanding to flee though, so it isn't "all of Israel", only those that are aware of what's happening. I would limit this group to strictly "ethnic Israel" and I would say that this group consists of those that understand what the AofD is. This is not to say that they necessarily believe in Jesus as the Messiah though.

3) his third target is "the remnant of her seed" - they are described as "those keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." I would expand this group beyond "ethnic Israel" to include the "good olive tree" or both saved Jew and Gentile people, or the "saints" that are actually overcome by the Beast. These God leaves pretty much unprotected throughout the Trib, and allows them to die.

Now I agree that the symbolism of "the earth opening up her mouth and swallowing the flood" that Satan sends after the Woman (#2) sounds alot like a earthquake such as what happens at the splitting of the Mt. of Olives, however it still seems opposite to me. The "flood" is swallowed by the earth in Rev 12. So this would be the "bad thing" that Satan sends against the Woman that is swallowed. Whether the "flood" represents armies of men or an actual flood of water or some other bad thing I don't know. But the point is the woman of Rev 12 is spared because the "earth swallows the flood", whereas the 1/3 remnant Jew are spared at the Mt. of Olives by "being swallowed by the crack in the Mt. of Olives". So if what you are saying is correct it would seem to me that Rev 12 should read something like "Satan sent a flood after the Woman, and the Woman was swallowed by the earth to protect her from the flood", instead of the "flood" being swallowed.



Now let's move to Zechariah 14:1-5. We see that Jerusalem is attacked, and the Lord rises to fight the nations by opening up the Mount of Olives, and allowing te escapees to escape the hordes of armies that are attacking Israel at that time. After that, the Lord comes, which we can say is the return of the Lord.

Now we have, according to Zechariah 14, the city is attacked, the Lord opens the Mount of Olives, and afterwards the Lord return. Synchronize Zechariah 14:1-5 with Matthew 24 and Revelation 12:13-19:20, and suddenly, IMHO, we have the entire picture of the events starting with the Massacre at Jerusalem followed by the Great Tribulation and afterwards the Return of the Lord. (With the fact that in both Zechariah 14 and Revelation 12:15-17 versions, the earth is moved in order to aid in the escape of Israel.) And so I figured that the Revelation 12:13-17 is the retelling of th sign of the abomination that causes desolation and the massacre at Jerusalem, followed by the beginning of the Great Tribulation. You will still need to identify the Lord's previous "day of battle" that this Battle of the Mt. of Olives is compared to in Zec 14:3.




Not at all. The Israelites, according to Revelation 12:6 and 14, flee to a place prepared for her by God, and shall be protected during the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation.I agree

It is there where Zechariah 12:10-14 comes to pass, and every one of the remnant of Israel is saved, because the blinders would be off, and after seeing the Lord and His 144,000 literally saving them from total anihilation, they will mourn and be bitter over their betrayal against God, and thus shall be saved.If Israel also "saw" the Lord defeat the Beast and his armies at Armageddon, there would be little doubt in their minds that he was the Messiah. And if they, being under attack, were not saved at this time this would cause the "blinders" to come off and realization to set in over their betrayal, and repentance would surely follow.

Remember, after the "little horn" is defeated (at Armageddon) the other "beasts" are allowed to continue for "a time and a season" according to Dan 7:12. Even though their "dominion" is taken away. So what this says to me is...Even though the nations that they were rulers over have been conquered by Jesus, they are still allowed to "continue". They have no authority in their own nations, but the ONE nation of the world [Israel] which the Lord has not conquered at this time, they are allowed to continue their battle.


Now I know what your next question is. When do the 144,000 come into play here? The only place that the 144,000 comes into play is while all of the main characters of the Great Tribulation are introduced, starting at chapter 14:1. They appear with the Lamb at Sion, where the Mount of OLives are. They sing a song that no one else could sing, and thus the people of Israel who are fleeing the armies of the beast willl hear this song. Who's willing to bet that Lord Jesus's name will come up several times during the singing of that song that will split the Mount of Olives in half? I'll put my life on that. How else will those who escape the Massacre at Jerusalem repent of their sins, unless they know that the One who saved them from death is the very same one that their forefathers told them to reject? Mount Sion, in the Context of 14:1 is clearly in Heaven, not Earth. The "song" they sing is in front of God's throne, and the living creatures, and the Elders.


Remember, the only ones who could have recognized Lord Jesus are either in heaven as one of the eloders, (which I doubt because John did not recognize them, although he did recognize Lord Jesus several times in Revelation, hence the Lamb references), or are under the altar praying for the Lord to take vengeance for their blood which was spilt by the wicked of the earth.I don't disagree with any of this

John recognized Him at Sion where the 144,000 were, but He is not with us right now. He is sleeping, awaiting Judgment day and the reward at New Jerusalem.I agree 100%


Really, I know that this is a difficult concept to believe, and many will initially reject it, but do the research and see if you do not come to the same conclusion. If not, then I am all ears on your rebuttle.I appreciate the thoughtful-ness of your concept, but I think that the scenario that I've presented is more in keeping with scripture. I don't say I'm 100% correct about anything, of course, and I try and keep an open mind, sort of....LOL


Remember, the Lord has to go out into battle against the nations, because He said that there will be survivors who will be picked up at the end, when He returns. If He does not go into battle for our sakes, then what will we do? There will be no hope for us, since we would have no help.Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


The Great Tribulation is nothing short of the entire earth swarming against us, seeking either our conversion, or our lives.

Thre is a reason why an innumerable amount of people were in heaven with palm branches who have come out of the Great Tribulation, because the enemy, Satan and his Beast, will attempt to duplicate the Massacre at Jerusalem over the entire earth, with us, the believers, being the target. Many will die, and lose their lives for the sake of Lord Jesus. IF Jesus does not fight for our sakes, and protect those who are destined to live until He returns, how will there be any survivors? Simply put, there will not be. I don't think that those that the Lord chooses to survive the GT will be totally helpless. Mustard seed sized faith can move mountains remember?
I do agree that the majority of the church will be overcome and killed by the Beast However.


Also, how else would the remnant of Israel be protected, unless the Lord fights and protects them?I think, as I pointed out, that the "remnant of the woman's seed" are the "saints" that are overcome by the Beast and those that remain alive 'til his coming. I could be wrong about that, but based on their description it seems most likely. They aren't protected too well, as most of them are killed..... They certainly can't represent normal "blinded" non-believing Jews because they are described as "having the testimony of Jesus Christ" in Rev 12:17 as are the "martyrs" of Rev 20:4.



I do not see the Lord fighting against the nations in Zechariah 14:3 as the point in time when the Lord returns and defeats the Beast along with His armies. I see that happening at His return, which Revelation 19:11-21 confirms. There is no other battle other than the burial of the armies of the world at Megiddo when the Lord returns.I agree that these are two separate battles, we disagree on their order though. Zech14:3 puts the order of Battles as 1)Armageddon 2)Jerusalem


He will judge the nations after He defeats the armies of the world and give to the birds a great feast of the wicked. The rest of the world, the wicked in it, are stricken with a plague, which Zechariah 14:12 thoroughly explains, which will kill them, with the remnant f the families of th earth taking tribute to the Lord at Jerusalem every year until the end of the world.He judges the nations after he ascends to the Throne of David and Israel is conquered by him. This occurs 1 year and 3 months after the Battle of Armageddon.


And so, when the Lord rises up to do battle, He is actually rising up to protect us, because we are going to need it.The Beast is given the power to overcome us, we aren't promised protection from him.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.





I see your logic here, and it is feesible. However, I do not believe that the great battle at Megiddo happens right after the AoD.I don't believe that the battle happens right after the AofD either, I think it happens 3 1/2 years after.


Where I see the Lord rising up to do battle, I believe it is Him rising up to defend us. This war that the Beast will wage against the saints is not merely a physical war alone. This will encompass the heavenlies as well, because all of the armies of Satan wil be against us, to directly exterminate us from the planet. The only way that we have a chance of surviving longer than one day during the Great Tribulation is by God aiding us in our fight against the Beast. Remember, the beast wages war against the saints, and if we have no defense, then we are toast.Most of the Church is destined to become "toast". This is how the Harvest occurs.


Lord Jesus is that defense, and every one that dies for Him, He will be there, helping them along the way, and to the survivors, He will be defending them until either the Father calls Him to come to heaven to prepare for the final showdown, (in other words, when God calls Him to heaven to get dressed, after all, He has to put on a lot of crowns and clean white linen, so that when He appears in the physical world, every eye shall see Him), or when those survivors die victorious against the Beast.I think it is a relatively small percentage of believers that are spared alive 'til Christ's coming. Those having specific duties as "workers" of the Great Harvest of Souls. I know that the martyrs are given "white robes" etc. but I'm not sure that the "survivors" are. I believe that there are plenty of parables to support the position that the "survivors" are given "crowns" and "rewards" after the dust settles and Christ is seated at the Throne of David. I think that their invite to the "supper" is a "come as you are" event:lol: I could be wrong though, I'm being worn down by your much typing LOL.




I understand what you are saying here, crush, and I know that what I presented is difficult to accept. Honestly, I do not want you or anyone else to take my word for it. Do the research, see if eveything that I am saying checks out, and, like you are doing here, give voice to your concerns and possible flaws to my logic that you see. This is how we get to the truth, and the Lord is guiding us all of the way.Amen...I'm gonna leave it there and get back to the rest at a later time.

Have a Great day,

crush

Dragonfighter1
Oct 19th 2008, 09:24 PM
I just want to thank Crush and Third hero for participating so earnestly in this thread. I have been following it every day (several times each) but didnt want to throw a wrench in it by asking a question when it was obvious that allowing you to have a direct dialog that others could follow would produce a better learning experience.
Thank you.

Kudo coming to both of you!:thumbsup:

third hero
Oct 19th 2008, 10:50 PM
I just want to thank Crush and Third hero for participating so earnestly in this thread. I have been following it every day (several times each) but didnt want to throw a wrench in it by asking a question when it was obvious that allowing you to have a direct dialog that others could follow would produce a better learning experience.
Thank you.

Kudo coming to both of you!:thumbsup:

Thanks Dragonfighter, It is a joy to actually discuss issues with someone who can clearly voice their objections without playing the winning or losing game. It is my opinion that when we continue to have productive conversations like this one, everyone learns more about what they believe, and what other do. It is also my belief that when concepts like the post-trib rapture and the issues with Israel the nation is discussed, the end result is that everyone who reads these posts will explore the Bible and seek out the answers fro themselves, so that we all can study ourselves to show approved, having the knowledge to rightly divide the Word of God.

And so, I would like to thank both you, crush, and all who have participated in this thread. I know we went off of the beaten path for a little bit, but I figured that it's useful information anyway.

So, go ahead and tell us to get back on the subject. I won't be offended.:spin:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 19th 2008, 11:11 PM
Thanks Dragonfighter, It is a joy to actually discuss issues with someone who can clearly voice their objections without playing the winning or losing game. It is my opinion that when we continue to have productive conversations like this one, everyone learns more about what they believe, and what other do. It is also my belief that when concepts like the post-trib rapture and the issues with Israel the nation is discussed, the end result is that everyone who reads these posts will explore the Bible and seek out the answers fro themselves, so that we all can study ourselves to show approved, having the knowledge to rightly divide the Word of God.

And so, I would like to thank both you, crush, and all who have participated in this thread. I know we went off of the beaten path for a little bit, but I figured that it's useful information anyway.

So, go ahead and tell us to get back on the subject. I won't be offended.:spin:

NOPE! Won't do it! Your conversation can go where ever it needs, It will come back in due course.... I started this thread I can change the rules...Haha.. In fact I think I'll go change the O.P to allow that.:lol:

Ahhhh phoee, It wont let me edit it anymore... no matter... go where you want. Thanks DF!

crush
Oct 20th 2008, 06:03 PM
I just want to thank Crush and Third hero for participating so earnestly in this thread. I have been following it every day (several times each) but didnt want to throw a wrench in it by asking a question when it was obvious that allowing you to have a direct dialog that others could follow would produce a better learning experience.
Thank you.

Kudo coming to both of you!:thumbsup:

TY Dragonfighter. This is a nice, out of the way, thread, I like it! :) Throw your question in the ring and get things started up again! I think we're starting to fizzle here LOL.


Thanks Dragonfighter, It is a joy to actually discuss issues with someone who can clearly voice their objections without playing the winning or losing game. It is my opinion that when we continue to have productive conversations like this one, everyone learns more about what they believe, and what other do. It is also my belief that when concepts like the post-trib rapture and the issues with Israel the nation is discussed, the end result is that everyone who reads these posts will explore the Bible and seek out the answers fro themselves, so that we all can study ourselves to show approved, having the knowledge to rightly divide the Word of God.

And so, I would like to thank both you, crush, and all who have participated in this thread. I know we went off of the beaten path for a little bit, but I figured that it's useful information anyway.

So, go ahead and tell us to get back on the subject. I won't be offended.:spin:

Thank you both too. :hug:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 20th 2008, 06:11 PM
TY Dragonfighter. This is a nice, out of the way, thread, I like it! :) Throw your question in the ring and get things started up again! I think we're starting to fizzle here LOL.

Thank you both too. :hug:

OK I'll try. But I think it beaten to death somewhat. The thing I still struggle with is First means first! It doesnt mean second! It cant mean anything but first. Rev20:5 is either scripture or lies. Or another option that I missed and you two will now reignite on!

"Burn baby burn"

(from grumpy old men II -the movie)

crush
Oct 21st 2008, 12:27 PM
OK I'll try. But I think it beaten to death somewhat. The thing I still struggle with is First means first! It doesnt mean second! It cant mean anything but first. Rev20:5 is either scripture or lies. Or another option that I missed and you two will now reignite on!

"Burn baby burn"

(from grumpy old men II -the movie)

Well, no argument from me here. I also think that it's the first of two resurrections of the dead....

The GT will be a terrible time to be a Christian and certainly not something to look forward to.

Evangelist Smith
Oct 21st 2008, 01:20 PM
I have always believed that we God's children would not suffer the wrath of God and really didnt know the Word well enough at that time to have an answer for anyone but after the Lord called me and I was faced with this issue the Lord led me to these scriptures,
11 Thess.2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


6.And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

And now ye know what withholdeth( The Holy Spirit)

that he might be revealed in his time( the antichrist)

The spirit of God that dwells in us in this world today is holding back the antichrist until that set time and will not be revealed until

until what?

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
this is a clear picture that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that the antichrist cannot be revealed until the church is taken out and when the church is taken out that power , the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way that the antichrist may be revealed

Then that wicked one will be revealed



8.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

satan in the form of the antichrist cannot rear His ugly head until the church is GONE

THE POWER OF ALMIGHTY GOD THRU HIS HOLY SPIRIT HOLDS HIM BACK

HOLDS THAT DEVIL BACK

And not one of us will know here who the antchrist is because we will not be here to see that event

God's Word declares this to be so and I believe His Word

as for the saints that are in the tribulation those are the ones who have not heard the Gospel before the tribulation and they will hear it during the tribulation and be saved and a seal set on them that they will not be hurt by the wrath of God

God Almighty is faithful to protect His own

amen amen and halleilujah amen! Thank you Jesus !

We are saved from the wrath to come

and when that trumpet sounds ( the catching away,more commonly called the Rapture)we will be out of this sin sick world and at home dining with the King of kings and Lord of Lords

Halleilujah yes we will

amen amen

God bless
Evang.dare

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 01:41 PM
I have always believed that we God's children would not suffer the wrath of God and really didnt know the Word well enough at that time to have an answer for anyone but after the Lord called me and I was faced with this issue the Lord led me to these scriptures,
11 Thess.2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


6.And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

And now ye know what withholdeth( The Holy Spirit)

that he might be revealed in his time( the antichrist)

The spirit of God that dwells in us in this world today is holding back the antichrist until that set time and will not be revealed until

until what?

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
this is a clear picture that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that the antichrist cannot be revealed until the church is taken out and when the church is taken out that power , the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way that the antichrist may be revealed

Then that wicked one will be revealed



8.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

satan in the form of the antichrist cannot rear His ugly head until the church is GONE

THE POWER OF ALMIGHTY GOD THRU HIS HOLY SPIRIT HOLDS HIM BACK

HOLDS THAT DEVIL BACK

And not one of us will know here who the antchrist is because we will not be here to see that event

God's Word declares this to be so and I believe His Word

as for the saints that are in the tribulation those are the ones who have not heard the Gospel before the tribulation and they will hear it during the tribulation and be saved and a seal set on them that they will not be hurt by the wrath of God

God Almighty is faithful to protect His own

amen amen and halleilujah amen! Thank you Jesus !

We are saved from the wrath to come

and when that trumpet sounds ( the catching away,more commonly called the Rapture)we will be out of this sin sick world and at home dining with the King of kings and Lord of Lords

Halleilujah yes we will

amen amen

God bless
Evang.dare

It has not been established for certain what or who the restrainer is. It could be the church according to some, the spirit to others, and yes there are several other theories. If you have direct revelation from God then by all means speak authoritatively... but if not allow us to discuss this evenly.

None of the Thessalonians passages establish pre or post positions. They simply state a rapture will happen. They state that an end time will happen, they state a lot of things, but they don't time line it. If they did we wouldn't be discussing it and helping each other come to more earnest faith.
Take verse 8 you quoted above.
"8.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
There is no indication how much time will pass between the revelation of the wicked, and the coming of the Lord. It could be 3 seconds, 3.5 years , 7 years... etc...

Please discourse with us... discuss with us.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 04:59 PM
I would like to make a quiet answer to turn away wrath. My point was that you seemed to be implying that I didn't have guidance from God and that you seem to claim you did. I do not believe that we have INSPIRED interpretation.. Because: One brother thinks one thing and another thinks another etc.. Both cannot be right, If one claims then that they have some special interpretation then the conversation can go no further... because unless he actually has some special hearing ability with God then the discussion is pointless. I did intend to respond the way I did cause that what I thought you were doing.

If you didn't do that then I truly am sorry.

There are many positions in Thessalonians, but I have yet to see anyone make a succesful claim on time lines inside of that book alone. Neither the post or the pre can make a definitive statement for or against the rapture antichrist from Thess. alone. It simply cant be done (timeline wise)

Raybob
Oct 21st 2008, 05:14 PM
Well, no argument from me here. I also think that it's the first of two resurrections of the dead....


Back to the OP's question, since the bible only speaks of ONE resurrection day when the dead shall rise, obviously the "first" resurrection is speaking of something other than a physical resurrection, such as the day one that is dead in sins and trespasses becomes alive in Christ, which IS the first resurrection.

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Raybob

Evangelist Smith
Oct 21st 2008, 05:18 PM
Brother as I said earlier I have stated my belief on this subject based on what I understand it to mean

I can say no more or no less



God bless and have a good day

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 10:11 AM
The first resurrection is all those who have been raised before, during and after the tribulation period. For all these will reign with Christ during the Millennial kingdom.

The second resurrection is of none believers who will receive their spiritual bodies before they stand before the judgment throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death, which those who partake of the first resurrection have no fear of.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Daniel 12:2
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 24th 2008, 11:51 AM
The first resurrection is all those who have been raised before, during and after the tribulation period. For all these will reign with Christ during the Millennial kingdom.

The second resurrection is of none believers who will receive their spiritual bodies before they stand before the judgment throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death, which those who partake of the first resurrection have no fear of.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Daniel 12:2
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Hey Dizzy,
Good talking to you. Your opening sentence...can you clarify please?
Did you mean killed/martyred? I dont think you meant: the first resurrection is for those who have already been raised already.

See what I mean. Just wanted to clarify,
Thanks
DF1

crush
Oct 24th 2008, 02:29 PM
Back to the OP's question, since the bible only speaks of ONE resurrection day when the dead shall rise, obviously the "first" resurrection is speaking of something other than a physical resurrection, such as the day one that is dead in sins and trespasses becomes alive in Christ, which IS the first resurrection.

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Raybob

The faithful that are alive at Christ's second coming will be "caught up" in the air to meet him - instantly changed into immortality.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

There is a resurrection of the dead that must occur before this according to Paul.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This is speaking of a physical resurrection of the dead, not a spiritual "resurrection" that happens in a believers life.

John 5:28 does not conflict here, because truly "all" that are in their graves [places of rememberance] will be resurrected "after the 1000 years" (believers and non-believers). It's just that those that died during the GT will not be in their graves, having been resurrected and given immortality 1000 years earlier.

Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Raybob
Oct 24th 2008, 04:00 PM
...There is a resurrection of the dead that must occur before this according to Paul.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This is speaking of a physical resurrection of the dead, not a spiritual "resurrection" that happens in a believers life. ...

You can't pull one verse out of context to explain things. Keeping things in context, Paul tells us this is the same day when the non-believers burn. Remember when Paul wrote that passage, he didn't insert chapter numbers to seperate anything. The passage continues into the next chapter.

1Th 4:15-5:4 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Raybob

David Taylor
Oct 24th 2008, 04:42 PM
Paul several times spoke of one singular bodily resurrection of mankind.

Paul never spoke of multiple (two or more) resurrections-plural of man.

Paul only taught one singular resurrection of man.

Acts 23:6 "But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."

Singular.

Acts 24:15 "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Singular.

Acts 24:21 "Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day."

Singular.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Singular.

Philippians 3:11 "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. "

Singular.

2 Timothy 2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already"

Singular.

crush
Oct 24th 2008, 06:54 PM
You can't pull one verse out of context to explain things. Keeping things in context, Paul tells us this is the same day when the non-believers burn. Remember when Paul wrote that passage, he didn't insert chapter numbers to seperate anything. The passage continues into the next chapter.

1Th 4:15-5:4 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Raybob

The context you've selected out of 1Th 4:15 changes nothing and doesn't help your argument whatsoever. It shows an order of events that happen at Christ's second coming.

1)the "dead in Christ" are resurrected
2)the righteous that are alive are caught up to meet Christ in the air
3)Christ begins his battle against the wicked

The "destruction against the wicked" in 1Th 4 is explained in Rev16:16-21. It's the battle of Armageddon. The wicked aren't resurrected so they can be destroyed, rather the Beast and his armies are gathered to this place and defeated by Christ. There is no resurrection of the wicked at Christ's second coming. Christ will fight and kill wicked on the Earth at his return, certainly. He will continue to do this until he has defeated all who oppose him, and will kill them or take them captive.

To clarify exactly who the "dead in Christ" that are that are resurrected at Christ's second coming we can look at Rev 20:4 and get an exact description. They were those that were beheaded during the tribulation, didn't take the "mark" or worship the beast.

The problem with trying to "spiritualize" the first resurrection and say it has been occuring for 2000 years is Rev 20. From the occurance of the "first resurrection", those involved will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Rev 20:4 ......they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

and during this same 1000 year period Satan will be cast bound into the bottomless pit

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So in order for you to say that the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:4 is a spiritual resurrection that has been occuring since the time of Christ, you will also have to say that Satan has been bound and cast into the bottomless pit all this time, we are living currently in the "millenium" age, and 1000 years doesn't really mean 1000 years. And really it should be explained why only trib martyrs are described as participating.

I mean do you really think that "beheaded for the testimony of Jesus", "didn't worship the beast", and "didn't recieve the mark of the beast" is an accurate description of the act of being born again? Don't you have the "testimony of Jesus" after you are born again, and not before? Why would worshiping the beast or receiving the mark even be a consideration, since neither of those things are available to us right now?

And lastly, Rev 20:4-6 clearly identifies two resurrections of the dead. One for believers killed during the GT. One for everyone else, just and unjust, which is the resurrection of John 5:28, Dan 12:2, and Acts 24:15, and occurs 1000 years after the "first resurrection".

Nihil Obstat
Oct 27th 2008, 02:21 PM
I would like some feedback please:
I do not see how to get around Rev 20:5 It seems that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the antichrist is bound for a thousand years.. where then the wrath...???????????????????????????????:giveup:
I haven't been following along in this thread, but I love the question, as it's one that I've been wrestling with for some time. The question I had was, if the resurrection occurs at the seventh trumpet, and then after that the final battle at Armageddon is fought, why then is there another resurrection following the defeat of the Antichrist in Rev. 20:4-6 - called the first resurrection?! Truly, this was a mystery to me. What I've come to discover, however, is that my question implied that the capture of the beasts would happen after the seventh trumpet, which I now know is not altogether true. Let me explain.

John wrote in Rev. 10:7 that the sounding of the seventh trumpet would last not just one day, but days. This verse since it was first shown to me by friends had always confused me to no end. But now there is an end, as it confuses me no more! In Rev. 11:19, two things take place: 1) the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant seen, and 2) a series of lightnings, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. I then noticed that both of these events are mentioned again in Revelation, yet not in the same paragraph, as though occurring in quick succession.

We find that just prior to the bowls of wrath being poured out, "the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened" (15:5), though there is no immediate mention of noises, an earthquake, or hail - not until after the bowls are completed (16:18, 21)! What to do with this paradox? The solution, as seems best to me, is this: The seventh trumpet judgment is the seven bowl judgments, and the first resurrection (of which Jesus was the firstfruits - 1 Cor. 15:20, 23) takes place individually "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15:52; Paul is speaking of his own transformation - "this" corruption, "this" mortal), but corporately this will take "days" (Rev. 10:7). This is why there can be the dead in Christ rising first, followed by those who are alive and remain at the beginning of the sounding of the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and yet these martyrs in Rev. 20:4-6 being resurrected some time later and still being of "the first resurrection".

Does this make sense? I hope I communicated that well... I'd love some feedback on all that too. Bless you! - Lk.11

Dragonfighter1
Oct 27th 2008, 03:28 PM
I haven't been following along in this thread, but I love the question, as it's one that I've been wrestling with for some time. The question I had was, if the resurrection occurs at the seventh trumpet, and then after that the final battle at Armageddon is fought, why then is there another resurrection following the defeat of the Antichrist in Rev. 20:4-6 - called the first resurrection?! Truly, this was a mystery to me. What I've come to discover, however, is that my question implied that the capture of the beasts would happen after the seventh trumpet, which I now know is not altogether true. Let me explain.

John wrote in Rev. 10:7 that the sounding of the seventh trumpet would last not just one day, but days. This verse since it was first shown to me by friends had always confused me to no end. But now there is an end, as it confuses me no more! In Rev. 11:19, two things take place: 1) the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant seen, and 2) a series of lightnings, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. I then noticed that both of these events are mentioned again in Revelation, yet not in the same paragraph, as though occurring in quick succession.

We find that just prior to the bowls of wrath being poured out, "the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened" (15:5), though there is no immediate mention of noises, an earthquake, or hail - not until after the bowls are completed (16:18, 21)! What to do with this paradox? The solution, as seems best to me, is this: The seventh trumpet judgment is the seven bowl judgments, and the first resurrection (of which Jesus was the firstfruits - 1 Cor. 15:20, 23) takes place individually "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15:52; Paul is speaking of his own transformation - "this" corruption, "this" mortal), but corporately this will take "days" (Rev. 10:7). This is why there can be the dead in Christ rising first, followed by those who are alive and remain at the beginning of the sounding of the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and yet these martyrs in Rev. 20:4-6 being resurrected some time later and still being of "the first resurrection".

Does this make sense? I hope I communicated that well... I'd love some feedback on all that too. Bless you! - Lk.11

Hmmmm,:hmm: seems like you are onto something...but what is not yet clear. Could you expand on your answer. Also, did you mean to say that the seven bowls text is a recapitulation/rewording of the trumpets? I've never heard that before. Tell me more please

vinsight4u8
Oct 28th 2008, 12:12 AM
Compare the end of Rev. 11 to other similar verses.

Rev. 4:5
Rev. 8:5-6

See how Rev. 11:19 - linked up with chapter 12 doesn't fit the flow pattern?

After the end of Rev. 11 should be the seven angels with a job to do.

But if you send 11:19b over to the start of chapter 16 and link them together - you get the punishment list (the end of Rev. 11) - going out just before the vials of God's wrath begin that will end with great hail.

Just as the trumpet punishment list went out before the seven angels could bring forth the sounding of the trumpets. The trumpet time ends with the last thing in that list- an earthquake.

Nihil Obstat
Oct 28th 2008, 12:32 AM
...did you mean to say that the seven bowls text is a recapitulation/rewording of the trumpets? I've never heard that before. Tell me more please

No, I do not believe the seven bowls are the seven trumpets (plural), but rather that the seventh and last trumpet (singular) is the seven bowl judgments. The seven seals, once opened, release the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet is a series of seven strategic attacks on the Antichrist's kingdom. In other words, I no longer see twenty one progressive judgments, but fourteen. - Lk.11

DIZZY
Oct 28th 2008, 12:38 AM
Hey Dizzy,
Good talking to you. Your opening sentence...can you clarify please?
Did you mean killed/martyred? I dont think you meant: the first resurrection is for those who have already been raised already.

See what I mean. Just wanted to clarify,
Thanks
DF1

Hi Dragonfighter1,
To clarify what I meant in my first sentence is that all believers Old Testament saints, the bride (church) and those who come out of the tribulation period, these are all included in the first resurrection. All those who are in the first resurrection will not have to fear the second death. There is a saying:

Live once die twice. or die once live twice.
So as a none believer you get the benefit of dying twice for your sin. Once physically and the second death spiritually. Total seperation from God.

I just had a thought, I get them now and then while I type things out. This is the thought: Those who die twice, physically and then spiritually. Reminded me of Moses. Moses was a holy man but because of a sin he did he was not allowed into the promised land. He was able to look at it but he was not able to enter it. But i know with Moses he got to enter the most important land ever, heaven.

Those who die seperated from God are outside looking in at what could have been their new life with God. If you understand what I am saying. I hope I explained that thought properly.

Anyhow back to what I was saying, those who die once are believers and they live twice. I think that's how it goes if I am wrong you might be able to put me on the right track.