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*Hope*
Oct 4th 2008, 02:49 AM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 4th 2008, 03:16 AM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?Because He made us with the ability to choose. That was part of the perfection of the Creation.

livingword26
Oct 4th 2008, 04:02 AM
If we cannot choose, then we are not free. If we are not free, then we are just Gods puppets. He does not want puppets. He wants people who can love Him as He loves us.

petepet
Oct 4th 2008, 02:44 PM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

Sin is not a thing. It is an act and an attitude. It is something that can only result from someone who has free will making a free will choice or freely taking up an attitude of their own free will.

God created man as a being with free will. Thus He created the possibility of sin. But it was man who used the gift of free will so as to rebel against God. God made man with free will so that he could freely love God and his fellowman. Man chose rather to love himself.

*Hope*
Oct 4th 2008, 03:19 PM
I understand free will. That's not what I'm questioning here. What I'm saying is...wouldn't a good and perfect God create a good and perfect will? If the answer is no, then He created something less than perfect and He is not fully good. If the answer is yes, then the will is not fully good...thus God is again, not fully good. See the dilemma?

apothanein kerdos
Oct 4th 2008, 03:24 PM
The problem is with your understanding of "perfect." Were Adam and Eve ontologically perfect in every sense of the word? No, for if this were so they couldn't have sinned. Instead, "perfect" means they are morally perfect. Notice that God doesn't say perfect, because in the strictest sense, He is the only perfect being in existence. Adam and Eve had limitations, such as they couldn't fly, couldn't create ex nihilo, and so forth. Furthermore, they were capable of violating their nature (whereas God is not).

The perfection simply refers to the fact that they met the required standard of God upon completion of their creation. This means that they were given a will to choose and anytime this will is allowed, even in a perfect being (so long as that being is allowed to negate his own nature), there is a chance of sin.

*Hope*
Oct 4th 2008, 03:43 PM
The problem is with your understanding of "perfect." Were Adam and Eve ontologically perfect in every sense of the word? No, for if this were so they couldn't have sinned. Instead, "perfect" means they are morally perfect.

Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?


Notice that God doesn't say perfect, because in the strictest sense, He is the only perfect being in existence. Adam and Eve had limitations, such as they couldn't fly, couldn't create ex nihilo, and so forth. Furthermore, they were capable of violating their nature (whereas God is not).

He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.


The perfection simply refers to the fact that they met the required standard of God upon completion of their creation. This means that they were given a will to choose and anytime this will is allowed, even in a perfect being (so long as that being is allowed to negate his own nature), there is a chance of sin.

This all helps to a point. My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists? Were angels created with this same capacity?

Butch5
Oct 4th 2008, 05:23 PM
Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?



He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.



This all helps to a point. My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists? Were angels created with this same capacity?

Hi Hope,

Where does the Scripture say the creation was perfect?

*Hope*
Oct 4th 2008, 05:31 PM
Hi Hope,

Where does the Scripture say the creation was perfect?

I'm in the middle of watching football so I'll give the short answer, lol. After God created, He declared it "good". This means God gave it His approval. It met God's standard. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to God. He would not declare anything imperfect as "good".

Butch5
Oct 4th 2008, 07:13 PM
I'm in the middle of watching football so I'll give the short answer, lol. After God created, He declared it "good". This means God gave it His approval. It met God's standard. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to God. He would not declare anything imperfect as "good".


OK, this is an opinion unless you can show it from Scripture. God declared several people righteous, however they were not perfect.

*Hope*
Oct 5th 2008, 03:42 AM
OK, this is an opinion unless you can show it from Scripture. God declared several people righteous, however they were not perfect.

God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.

Butch5
Oct 5th 2008, 04:18 AM
God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.


Standards for what? The Scripture says God said it was good. Where did He say it was perfect?

third hero
Oct 5th 2008, 05:33 AM
God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the part and parcel of your OP is the question of imperfection coming out of perfection? If this is the case, then part of the question itself can justifiably come under scrutiny, and not deviate from the topic.

You say that God created "perfect" beings in humans. It is not what was said. He called humanity and all creation "very good". This is a not the same as perfection. He did not say, "it is perfect". He said that it was "very good". This implies the connotation that, even as God knew the end from the Beginning, understood that humanity upon creation would not only be capable of sin, but also, in the right set of circumstances, choose to sin instead of just trusting in the Lord. That foreknowledge caused Him to not say, "it is perfect" because it wa not perfect, but "it is very good", meaning that it fit the standards in which God wanted this universe to operate, which included mechanisms for the universe to continue to exist even if the element of sin is injected into it.

And so, if you understand all of this, you will understand that unles you provide scripture showing God saying "it is perfect", then by someone, like me, saying that God knowingly did not create perfect beings in the beginning actually answers your question.

Now. After all of that, I want to show what I actual believe is the answer to your question.

It IS my opinion that God created a PERFECT UNIVERSE. This would include humanity. It was so perfect that God entrusted humanity with the Tree of Life, which, if Adam and Eve had obeyed God, would have sealed this universe forever. If Adam had not sinned, sin would not have entered the universe, and Satan would have been nothing more than a mere memory.

God, in His infinite wisdom, realizing what He actually did when He created Adam, asked Himself the right question. "What would happen if my creation is sealed in perfection, like Lucifer was, and then, like Lucifer, betrayed Him?" God realizing the answer, decided to test His creation, to see if they would give in to the temptation to betray their creator. Knowing the power of total free will, God knew that a thinking, reasoning being is capable of making many decisions that the creature itself believes is right, although in reality, those decisions are wrong.

You see, if God had sealed Adam in Glory, represented by the tree of life, and Adam chose to betray Him afterward, then the universe would eternally exist as a stain against God.

Also, IMHO, God would allow imperfection to come out of perfection because there has to be tests in order to see if perfection is truly perfect. Jesus is perfect. His life on earth tested every fiber of His being, and He proved himself to be perfect. God wanted other perfect beings with Him. Therefore a test had to be administered. Adam showed that although he was made perfect, he, through the power that God gave him, chose to defile himself, and thus becoming imperfect.

My point? It is not God that creates imperfection. God created man in perfection, complete with the knowledge of self-existence. This knowledge gave mankind the freedom that computers will never truly be able to enjoy, and that is the ability to choose his fate. Think of it like this. God made man, and in that creation, God gave man a powerful gift, one that could seal up this universe as his, and thus eliminating the possibility of sin, or, when used incorrectly, could cause all of the corruption and death that we see today.

Therefore, it is not God that creates imperfection, but the creation itself, armed with all of the weapons that the Lord gave him at Creation. I hope that I have answered your question.

apothanein kerdos
Oct 5th 2008, 04:38 PM
The perfect debate is quite superfluous; aside from the fact that tradition has always dictated that Creation was perfect, the Hebrew for "very good" means "A met standard and purpose." Now, unless we are to assume that God's standards and purposes are less than perfect, we must accept this means that the standard and purpose of Creation was perfect.

Not to mention we are left with two options: Either God created a perfect world (perfect in the sense it was morally incorrupt and functioned as He pleased) or God created a world that was already filled with sin and was already corrupted. Pick your poison.


Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?

It simply means they weren't corrupted at the time. To be "morally perfect" means "to be free from having committed an immoral action/thought." God is morally perfect because He's never been immoral, it's not in His nature. Humans were morally perfect, but when faced with the chance to be immoral, they chose to do so. Being morally perfect does not exclude the ability to choose - so long as the ability to choose exists, the ability for evil likewise exists.


He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.

Through the ability to choose. As I stated, they were perfect in their standard and purpose, likewise they were morally perfect. Yet, they were allowed to choose.


My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists?

Because He knew they would fall, which would accomplish His plan for humanity. :)

*Hope*
Oct 5th 2008, 08:51 PM
The perfect debate is quite superfluous; aside from the fact that tradition has always dictated that Creation was perfect, the Hebrew for "very good" means "A met standard and purpose." Now, unless we are to assume that God's standards and purposes are less than perfect, we must accept this means that the standard and purpose of Creation was perfect.

Not to mention we are left with two options: Either God created a perfect world (perfect in the sense it was morally incorrupt and functioned as He pleased) or God created a world that was already filled with sin and was already corrupted. Pick your poison.


Thank you for clearing that up :)



It simply means they weren't corrupted at the time. To be "morally perfect" means "to be free from having committed an immoral action/thought." God is morally perfect because He's never been immoral, it's not in His nature. Humans were morally perfect, but when faced with the chance to be immoral, they chose to do so. Being morally perfect does not exclude the ability to choose - so long as the ability to choose exists, the ability for evil likewise exists.

Okay, so they were "morally perfect" which included the ability to become immoral and the fact that they took that chance introduced evil/sin into the world. Does God have the same ability to become immoral and just chooses not to?


Through the ability to choose. As I stated, they were perfect in their standard and purpose, likewise they were morally perfect. Yet, they were allowed to choose.

I guess my question goes back to, why does the ability to choose have to include the possibility of evil? Why couldn't a good and perfect God have created us with the capacity to choose, but without the capacity to inflict evil upon the entire world?


Because He knew they would fall, which would accomplish His plan for humanity. :)

This reminds me of Augustine saying "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to allow no evil to exist". But I guess I'm still confused as to how/why this needed to occur for God to display His love for His creation. Was there no other way?

apothanein kerdos
Oct 6th 2008, 11:26 PM
Okay, so they were "morally perfect" which included the ability to become immoral and the fact that they took that chance introduced evil/sin into the world. Does God have the same ability to become immoral and just chooses not to?

They were morally perfect, but not epistemically perfect. Likewise, the perfection was by fiat and not by an inherent part of their nature. These two things coupled together means they didn't fully understand the ramification of their choice and they were able to render up the perfection given to them.

God, on the other hand, is morally perfect de facto (in reality) and epistemically perfect. Therefore, for God to choose to sin would negate His nature. Is it possible for God to sin? No, because the Bible even says that He cannot be tempted. What this most likely means is that He cannot fall into temptation because He fully understands the ramifications of doing so. I honestly don't know if that is the appropriate explanation, but it is one.


I guess my question goes back to, why does the ability to choose have to include the possibility of evil? Why couldn't a good and perfect God have created us with the capacity to choose, but without the capacity to inflict evil upon the entire world?

That's not really a choice, is it? You get to choose between apples and...apples.


This reminds me of Augustine saying "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to allow no evil to exist". But I guess I'm still confused as to how/why this needed to occur for God to display His love for His creation. Was there no other way?
Come on, you've read my essay on the necessity of evil (that or you lied about reading it). :)

jponb
Oct 9th 2008, 09:55 PM
If you had to restrict your spouse in order for him or her to remain faithful to you, would that make him or her truly faithful? No. It is a choice of freewill to do what is right. God wants us to freely choose Him. To make it where we didn't have a choice, would only be making us puppets. A good illustration of this is found in Jeremiah when he was sent to the house of Jonadab. Eventhough Jonadab wasn't present in the flesh, his children still obeyed his commandments. As long as we are in the Will of God, we are perfect...perfect in Him; the problem came when we decided to step out.

*Hope*
Oct 9th 2008, 11:48 PM
Come on, you've read my essay on the necessity of evil (that or you lied about reading it). :)

I read it, but you expect me to remember all that? :rolleyes:

apothanein kerdos
Oct 9th 2008, 11:52 PM
I read it, but you expect me to remember all that? :rolleyes:

If you weren't so lazy then maybe I'd expect you to read it again.

*Hope*
Oct 9th 2008, 11:56 PM
If you weren't so lazy then maybe I'd expect you to read it again.

Why? Is there going to be a test? :hmm:

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 13th 2008, 04:17 AM
The problem is with your understanding of "perfect." Were Adam and Eve ontologically perfect in every sense of the word? No, for if this were so they couldn't have sinned.

Apothenian;
Could you please give me a running definition of ontological perfection?
Thank you



Instead, "perfect" means they are morally perfect. Notice that God doesn't say perfect, because in the strictest sense, He is the only perfect being in existence. Adam and Eve had limitations, such as they couldn't fly, couldn't create ex nihilo, and so forth. Furthermore, they were capable of violating their nature (whereas God is not).

I see what you're saying, and agree that God is the only perfect being in existence, but doesn't perfection entail being without flaw rather than without limitations? Couldn't something with inherent limitations still be without flaw? The Bible says that we will be one day be perfect, but even so, we will still have limitations. We will never be as limitless as God, so does that mean there are degrees of perfection, or is perfection absolute?



The perfection simply refers to the fact that they met the required standard of God upon completion of their creation. This means that they were given a will to choose and anytime this will is allowed, even in a perfect being (so long as that being is allowed to negate his own nature), there is a chance of sin.

Apothenian....If you could define the standard of God here, you can also define perfection. So, then, what was that standard of perfection? God is eternally perfect, in nature, transcending time and space, having never been flawed. He is the source of all perfection....all things come from Him, but does this mean that His creation can be as perfect as He is?

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 13th 2008, 04:29 AM
They were morally perfect, but not epistemically perfect. Likewise, the perfection was by fiat and not by an inherent part of their nature. These two things coupled together means they didn't fully understand the ramification of their choice and they were able to render up the perfection given to them.

God told them that if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that they would die. Are you saying that they did not fully understand the concept of death, or what it entailed?

Also, I'm not sure if I agree that they were morally perfect, because in order to be morally perfect, musn't one have an intellectual understanding of the nature of morality? To understand morality, one must also understand immorality, which I don't think they did. They actually had no concept of either. Regarding the nature of morality and immorality, they had no concept, meaning they were not "morally perfect" in an intellectual sense.


Is it possible for God to sin? No, because the Bible even says that He cannot be tempted. What this most likely means is that He cannot fall into temptation because He fully understands the ramifications of doing so. I honestly don't know if that is the appropriate explanation, but it is one.

That makes sense....God is perfect in every way, because He understood the nature of imperfection. Neither Adam nor Eve understood this. They were not intellectually perfect, nor were they morally perfect. Having not known imperfection, they existed in a perpetually perfect state until sin entered the picture.

Éσяєяυииєя
Oct 14th 2008, 03:20 AM
Why? Is there going to be a test® :hmm:

Did ya already finish re-reading Apothanein Kerdos essay ? did ya get a good grade?

By the way this was a deep thread :yes:

Go well

_____________________
Peace and so forth

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

(Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 03:04 AM
If ya don't want to respond to me, apotheneien, just say so. :rolleyes:

If anyone else wants to take up the slack, I'd love to continue this discussion.

apothanein kerdos
Oct 16th 2008, 03:03 PM
God told them that if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that they would die. Are you saying that they did not fully understand the concept of death, or what it entailed?

I'm saying they didn't fully understand what good and evil were, thus they didn't understand the full ramifications of what God meant when He told them they would die.


Also, I'm not sure if I agree that they were morally perfect, because in order to be morally perfect, musn't one have an intellectual understanding of the nature of morality?

Not necessarily. A baby is morally perfect (in some sense) because he hasn't chosen to sin. Adam and Eve had to be morally perfect; to be morally imperfect would mean they were created that way, making God the author of evil. This, of course, poses quite the problem for Christians.



To understand morality, one must also understand immorality, which I don't think they did. They actually had no concept of either. Regarding the nature of morality and immorality, they had no concept, meaning they were not "morally perfect" in an intellectual sense.

Which is exactly what I said in reference to their epistemic fallibility. ;)

To be morally perfect means one is free from moral imperfection, one has not sinned, etc. What you're arguing for is what I said: Epistemic fallibility. When discussing moral perfection we are dealing with what actions (or lack thereof) they had committed. When dealing with epistemic perfection, we're dealing with perfect knowledge on any subject, of which they did not hold (and only God holds).


That makes sense....God is perfect in every way, because He understood the nature of imperfection. Neither Adam nor Eve understood this. They were not intellectually perfect, nor were they morally perfect. Having not known imperfection, they existed in a perpetually perfect state until sin entered the picture.

They were morally perfect - to not be morally perfect would mean they were made with sin - the Fall of humanity then becomes superfluous because they were already sinful (under your theory).

petepet
Oct 19th 2008, 08:02 AM
Thank you for clearing that up :)




Okay, so they were "morally perfect" which included the ability to become immoral and the fact that they took that chance introduced evil/sin into the world. Does God have the same ability to become immoral and just chooses not to?

Morals are determined by God and thus He could not be immoral. Whatever He was would be moral. Fortunately He is such that that results in what we call moral perfection, goodness, compassion, purity, justness, etc..


I guess my question goes back to, why does the ability to choose have to include the possibility of evil? Why couldn't a good and perfect God have created us with the capacity to choose, but without the capacity to inflict evil upon the entire world?

Because within our limitations God gave us absolute choice, with no restrictions placed on it. That is the only kind of choice worth having. It is that which raises us above the animal world. You talk of evil as if it were a thing. Evil is man's choosing mechanism going in the wrong direction.



This reminds me of Augustine saying "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to allow no evil to exist". But I guess I'm still confused as to how/why this needed to occur for God to display His love for His creation. Was there no other way?

There was no other way if we were to have free will. And what are we without free will? Automatons or prisoners.



You need to recognise that God knew all the angles, but we do not. He knew what was possible and we do not. How can we argue with God about the possibilities when our minds are too feeble to fully grasp them because we do not have a full understanding of the possibilities? What we must do is recognise what God is, and thus that we can know that He made the best choice for us.

*Hope*
Oct 19th 2008, 02:59 PM
I'm saying they didn't fully understand what good and evil were, thus they didn't understand the full ramifications of what God meant when He told them they would die.



Not necessarily. A baby is morally perfect (in some sense) because he hasn't chosen to sin. Adam and Eve had to be morally perfect; to be morally imperfect would mean they were created that way, making God the author of evil. This, of course, poses quite the problem for Christians.




Which is exactly what I said in reference to their epistemic fallibility. ;)

To be morally perfect means one is free from moral imperfection, one has not sinned, etc. What you're arguing for is what I said: Epistemic fallibility. When discussing moral perfection we are dealing with what actions (or lack thereof) they had committed. When dealing with epistemic perfection, we're dealing with perfect knowledge on any subject, of which they did not hold (and only God holds).



They were morally perfect - to not be morally perfect would mean they were made with sin - the Fall of humanity then becomes superfluous because they were already sinful (under your theory).

That was a good explanation of epistemic fallibility, thanks. :)

Blackshadowsnoopy
Mar 19th 2009, 06:35 AM
God is perfect in every way, because He understood the nature of imperfection. Neither Adam nor Eve understood this. They were not intellectually perfect, nor were they morally perfect. Having not known imperfection, they existed in a perpetually perfect state until sin entered the picture.

Somehow, the concept that God is perfect in every way, because He understands the nature of imperfection doesn't seem right.
Ezekiel 28:11 speaks of Lucifer before his fall from perfection "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty " Surely the most perfectly created being filled with wisdom would at least by default, understand the nature of imperfection, but of course that didn't by any means make him God.

It seems more natural to me to say that God is perfect in every way because holiness is his inherent nature. I don't see God as a school child who only does what is right because he knows full well that if he does wrong he will suffer painful consequences.

Isn't darkness the absence of light ?"For what fellowship has light with darkness ?"(2Cor6:14). God is light 1 John 1:5: "This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don't tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin."

Blackshadowsnoopy
Mar 21st 2009, 08:00 AM
What this most likely means is that He cannot fall into temptation because He fully understands the ramifications of doing so. I honestly don't know if that is the appropriate explanation, but it is one.

Another way of looking at sin in us , is in comparison to viruses in computers. For example, when some brainy computer geek writes a computer program, it is by nature very complex for it to work perfectly. Then when an evil computer geek comes along and writes a virus and it infects that perfectly working computer program, that program fails to work as it was designed to and therefore becomes less efficient, gets all crazy and incapable of fully doing what it was originally designed for.
The only way to help the infected program is to delete the virus and renew the original program.

If we apply this analogy to God, (the original computer programmer of our minds and everything else), it makes sense that Lucifer was the original evil computer programmer with the lies that he infected us with. Therefore, our only hope is (with Gods help) for us to get rid of the lies we're thinking and to renew our minds into the image of Christ.

The idea that God cannot fall into temptation because he fully understands the ramifications of doing so may be a partial reason, but certainly not the only reason.

Lucifer was originally the signet of perfection, full of wisdom, but that didn't keep him from doing evil. Solomon too, was given wisdom from God, but still he chose to do evil in the site of God. So wisdom or knowledge in and by itself may not be enough to keep angel or man from chosing evil. Could God be the only exception ?

THOM
Mar 30th 2009, 01:32 AM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

Hi Hope,
Hope you're still there. Your subject caught my eye and I read through the various posts, and the one thing that I failed to fine is the answer to the subject's question: "The Origin of Sin?"

Sin had its origin, NOT with Adam (and Eve) but with, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14ff)"; and "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15ff)"

The origin of Sin was with "Lucifer", when he, "said in" his "heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Up to that point, he had been "perfect" in his "ways from the day that" he had been "created"; but then because of his "I will(s)", which he declared five of them, "iniquity (Sin) was found (discovered)" in him.

This was an attempted coup d'etat against THE ENTIRE Sovereignty of GOD, on Lucifer's part. He got other angels to go along with, and they all were stripped of everything GOD had bestowed on them.

In the meantime, Genesis 1:2c, "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" happens as GOD begins Implementing HIS MASTER PLAN for all the ages, by replacing [Lucifer] (now) Satan ("the serpent", "the devil", etc.) with mankind.

Within Lucifer (and those angels who chose to follow him), was the ability to "freely" choose. He and they chose to rebel and revolt. Now GOD is going about dismantling every iota of any future and/or further rebellion or revolts against HIS SOVEREIGNTY ever again. And HE IS doing so by allowing anything and all things that could possibly happen to happen so that when we, and all other unbelievers finally arrive at where GOD IS Already, no one, no one, no one, will ever try rebellion and revolting against THE PERFECT WILL and SOVEREIGNTY of GOD again. . .and we'll still have our 'Free-Will'.

Sin is anything counter to THE WILL of GOD. It was GOD'S WILL to Create Beings that were/are/will be a Praise and Glory to HIMSELF and to have a Relationship and Fellowship with HIMSELF.

Around HIS WILL, HE Created you and I ("a living soul") wrapped around HIS WILL (The Scripture calls this Will, our "Heart"); which GOD has given our "living soul" total control over that Will ("Heart") that HE has so Graciously given us. Outside of our "living soul" is the house that we live in, our "body". Sin happens when our Will goes counter to GOD'S Will for us.

Lucifer is the origin of Sin, and as "the serpent", he brought it into the garden of Eden, via deceiving Eve, and getting Adam, to "freely" will his will over THE WILL of GOD.

decrumpit
Mar 30th 2009, 04:22 PM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

Hi Hope, Kerdos, and Welder,

I guess I'll jump right in!

I've seen a bunch of good answers here, although introducing philosophy to a passage that from what I gather should be read allegorically is to needlessly complicate things.


They were morally perfect, but not epistemically perfect. Likewise, the perfection was by fiat and not by an inherent part of their nature. These two things coupled together means they didn't fully understand the ramification of their choice and they were able to render up the perfection given to them.

God, on the other hand, is morally perfect de facto (in reality) and epistemically perfect. Therefore, for God to choose to sin would negate His nature. Is it possible for God to sin? No, because the Bible even says that He cannot be tempted. What this most likely means is that He cannot fall into temptation because He fully understands the ramifications of doing so. I honestly don't know if that is the appropriate explanation, but it is one.

I think you are getting into difficult ideas here if you understand Adam and Eve to be ontologically perfect. If they were perfect in their beings, they would not have sinned. Only God is truly perfect, because he CANNOT by his very nature sin.

So we would have to agree that their "perfection" is some kind of limited perfection below the status of God. But these themes can only be inferred from the Bible and do not lend themselves to exact interpretations.

Scientifically, I think we should also understand that this passage was written well before the scientific revolution, and as such should not be read with a magnifying glass. We CHOOSE sin, and sin is quite literally a part of our being. It's not a matter of how it got here; only a fool would deny that it isn't present.

apothanein kerdos
Mar 30th 2009, 11:51 PM
I think you are getting into difficult ideas here if you understand Adam and Eve to be ontologically perfect. If they were perfect in their beings, they would not have sinned. Only God is truly perfect, because he CANNOT by his very nature sin.

So we would have to agree that their "perfection" is some kind of limited perfection below the status of God. But these themes can only be inferred from the Bible and do not lend themselves to exact interpretations.

Scientifically, I think we should also understand that this passage was written well before the scientific revolution, and as such should not be read with a magnifying glass. We CHOOSE sin, and sin is quite literally a part of our being. It's not a matter of how it got here; only a fool would deny that it isn't present.

I'm not quite sure where I said that they were ontologically perfect. I stated that they were morally perfect, but epistemically imperfect. Considering our mores and epistemology fall under our ontology, one could easily infer from my statement that I was saying that we were ontologically finite, or incomplete.

As for the notion of where sin comes from - that is quite big. If Adam and Eve were created sinners, then God is the origin of sin. If Adam and Eve chose to sin, then he is not the author of sin.

Sam07
Apr 2nd 2009, 12:19 PM
Hi everyone,

The origin of sin, maybe this may help to shed some light on the basis of sin our Father being the creator of all things plants a garden or paradise eastward of Eden separate to creation and he also has the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midstís of the garden.

It is clear from our perspective we would never keep two extreme sources within the range or grasp of people because of the obvious consequences, however God in all his wisdom and omnipotence had both trees present in the Garden of Eden.

I believe this was because the tree of life represented Gods eternity and the tree of knowledge of good and evil represented Gods under standing of right and wrong so I suspect thatís why they were also in the garden or they could also symbolized God as light and the knowledge possibly as darkness.

Anyway the source of wrong doing seems to come from the fruit from the tree of knowledge, because prior to Adam and Eveís disobedience they were naked and not ashamed so it appears it was only after they ate from the tree of knowledge that there eyes or were opened and then they realized they were naked and hid them selves.

So the knowledge of wrong doing seems to come from the fruit from the tree of knowledge but the origin of sin or an offense seems to be the result or consequence of a disobedient act.

So the origin of sin is disobedience, hence in thought word or deed we can be held accountable by the father as he is able to see the intents of our heart.

Just some food for thought.

Peace

Sam

Walstib
Apr 3rd 2009, 03:14 PM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

Lately I have been defining sin as anything in or about us that falls short of the Glory of God. Sort of encompasses all the other ways to define sin I think. So to me anything that is not God himself can be said to have sin.

A question I ask myself here is....

Did the flesh that lusts against our spirit exist before Adam ate from the tree or did eating from the tree expose the existence of this flesh?

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (1Ti 2:14 NASB)

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (Gal 5:17 NASB)

Said in different words...

Did the nature of man change when Adam ate of the tree or did Eve eating of the tree before any fall or curse show that a tendency to rebel is within the nature we were created with?

We naturally, if by no other reason that we are not God himself, fall short of His glory and this way originate in sin.

Past that I would simply say that God not setting it up so that we are just automatons is very good. ;)

Peace,
Joe

Equipped_4_Love
May 10th 2009, 06:30 AM
So, then, what it all boils down to is that God is the only being that is perfect in His nature. He cannot sin because His perfect nature will not allow it.

So, then, why do you suppose He did not create Adam with that same perfect nature? Obviously, this was not an impossibility for God. The only other option was that there was some higher purpose in the fall of man that we do not fully comprehend.

What do you think that purpose was? Remember -- man had no knowledge of evil or sin until his rebellion, then his eyes were opened.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 07:22 AM
So, then, what it all boils down to is that God is the only being that is perfect in His nature. He cannot sin because His perfect nature will not allow it.

Where do we read in Scripture about GOD having a "nature"? GOD cannot and does not sin because HE IS PERFECT. Sin is a Spiritual imperfection that goes counter to THE WILL of GOD. When GOD gave angels, and then mankind, "Free-Will", HE made both angels and mankind Perfect.


So, then, why do you suppose He did not create Adam with that same perfect nature? Obviously, this was not an impossibility for God. The only other option was that there was some higher purpose in the fall of man that we do not fully comprehend.GOD did "create Adam with that same perfect nature". Adam's "Free-Will" chose Sin (Spiritual imperfection). Adam was given as his First choice, "Of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat", specifically from "the tree of life also in the midst of the garden", the ability to become an Everlasting, living forever, human being. Instead Adam took his second choice, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die." That's right Adam "Free-willingly" chose Death over Life, Imperfection over Perfection.


What do you think that purpose was? Remember -- man had no knowledge of evil or sin until his rebellion, then his eyes were opened.The plan was for mankind to have Everlasting Unencumbered, Unbroken, and Uninterrupted Fellowship with GOD HIMSELF.
And Adam surely had "knowledge of evil or sin", prior to "his rebellion", because GOD had already told him, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die."

matthew7and1
May 10th 2009, 07:54 AM
I'm in the middle of watching football so I'll give the short answer, lol. After God created, He declared it "good". This means God gave it His approval. It met God's standard. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to God. He would not declare anything imperfect as "good".
the imperfection is what makes it good in God's eyes.. you see it is perfectly aligned with Gods will. His will is for us to love him freely and so there must be a choice. We can not choose God without a choice. A description of perfect that doesn't include choice = a world of zombies.
it's like a hammer- a classic tool- perfect for many wonderful and productive purposes, but people sometimes use them to vandalize or break into homes. the hammer itself is wonderful creation, it what the choice of the user does with it that makes it bad.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 03:22 PM
So, then, what it all boils down to is that God is the only being that is perfect in His nature. He cannot sin because His perfect nature will not allow it.

So, then, why do you suppose He did not create Adam with that same perfect nature? Obviously, this was not an impossibility for God. The only other option was that there was some higher purpose in the fall of man that we do not fully comprehend.

What do you think that purpose was? Remember -- man had no knowledge of evil or sin until his rebellion, then his eyes were opened.


I'd say He cannot sin because He chooses not to sin, along with He is perfect in every aspect. His moral perfection is intrinsically tied up in His love and knowledge.

For humans, however, simply by the act of being created we cannot love or know as much as God. Being created indicates finiteness, whereas "infinite" of anything would require a being to be eternal and infinite in that being's essence. If the being is created, then the essence is non-eternal and therefore cannot be infinite in anything. Humans, being created, could not hold onto the same type of love or epistemic knowledge that God holds. Though they were morally perfect, they were not completely perfect in the way God is perfect.

Equipped_4_Love
May 10th 2009, 03:23 PM
Where do we read in Scripture about GOD having a "nature"?

Acts 17:29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising

2 Peter 1:3,4 ....as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through this you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

I'm surprised you've never heard of the term nature being used in reference to God before -- He has a loving nature, etc. This isn't a new concept :)


GOD cannot and does not sin because HE IS PERFECT.

Yes -- the divine nature is perfect. Were we created with a perfect nature? I doubt it. If we were, it would have been impossible for us to sin.


Sin is a Spiritual imperfection that goes counter to THE WILL of GOD. When GOD gave angels, and then mankind, "Free-Will", HE made both angels and mankind Perfect.

I thought we esteblished earlier that mankind was not created perfect. Neither were the angels. Can you cite a Scriptural reference that would indicate otherwise?

I suggest you backtrack and read previous posts by Hope and apothenian.


GOD did "create Adam with that same perfect nature".

The divine nature of God is perfect, and because He is perfect, He cannot sin. Yes, we were created with free will, which means that we had the choice to obey or rebel. If we had been perfect as God, we wouldn't have sinned. The way I see it, it's a logical conclusion.

The 1 Peter verse that I quoted states that we are partakers of this divine nature. This would correlate nicely with 1 John 3:9, which states that anyone who is born again cannot sin. Because we are partakers of this divine nature, which is perfect, it is against our nature to willfully sin. We still have the choice, but to do so would contradict the divine nature of which we are now partakers.


Adam's "Free-Will" chose Sin (Spiritual imperfection).
Sin is a willful choice -- it's an action. It's not a spiritual condition. Sin separates us from God.


Adam was given as his First choice, "Of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat", specifically from "the tree of life also in the midst of the garden", the ability to become an Everlasting, living forever, human being. Instead Adam took his second choice, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die." That's right Adam "Free-willingly" chose Death over Life, Imperfection over Perfection.

Yep :)


The plan was for mankind to have Everlasting Unencumbered, Unbroken, and Uninterrupted Fellowship with GOD HIMSELF.

Yes -- as those who know Jesus Christ as Lord have now, and will have eternally. Surely you are not implying that God created Adam without the knowledge that He would rebel...and if He had that knowledge, being the sovereign God that He is, we must conclude that it was part of His eternal plan.
But then, the question arises, would it have been possible to create mankind with a nature that is perfect -- that is like His? Would it have been possible to create Adam with a free will and the inability to sin? Well, perhaps, but I don't think we can definitively comment on what might have been. We must just trust that the Lord created everything with the best purpose in mind.
We are told by Scripture that God does things to glorify Himself. He was definitely glorified when He conquered sin and death on the cross.

Think about it!!


And Adam surely had "knowledge of evil or sin", prior to "his rebellion", because GOD had already told him, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die."

Yes -- Adam had knowledge of sin, and the foreknowledge of what would happen, to a certain degree. Even so, I don't think he has the full picture. He certainly didn't know that Christ would also have to die, in order to restore fellowship with God.
Did he even know that his fellowship with God would be broken? What was Adam's concept of death at the time?

Equipped_4_Love
May 10th 2009, 03:42 PM
I'd say He cannot sin because He chooses not to sin, along with He is perfect in every aspect. His moral perfection is intrinsically tied up in His love and knowledge.

I would agree that God is perfect in nature (holy), action(righteous), and knowledge.
We could take it a step further and say that God's judgment stems from His perfection.


For humans, however, simply by the act of being created we cannot love or know as much as God. Being created indicates finiteness, whereas "infinite" of anything would require a being to be eternal and infinite in that being's essence. If the being is created, then the essence is non-eternal and therefore cannot be infinite in anything. Humans, being created, could not hold onto the same type of love or epistemic knowledge that God holds. Though they were morally perfect, they were not completely perfect in the way God is perfect.

Okay -- that makes sense. Adam knew that He would die if he rebelled, but his knowledge of death was limited. Eve's knowledge even more so, since she got the information second-hand from Adam.
Adam was more in the know that she was, which is why he was held responsible, and judged.

Christ was the only one who could atone for the sin of man, because He was the only perfect man to ever walk the face of the earth, which is why I don't believe that physical limitation should be a factor in our definition of perfection. If it were, Jesus could never have been called "perfect."

He was perfect because He had the Divine Nature -- Adam never had the divine nature...It was the fall of man, and Christ's death, which leads to the Holy Spirit taking up residence inside of us, that makes us partakers of the Divine Nature.

We are perfect in Christ. Adam was imperfect, because he was completely mortal.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 04:53 PM
Acts 17:29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising

2 Peter 1:3,4 ....as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through this you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

I'm surprised you've never heard of the term nature being used in reference to God before -- He has a loving nature, etc. This isn't a new concept :)

Oh, I've "heard of the term nature being used in reference to God before"; but in the way that it used is misleading, at best. GOD doesn't have "a loving nature", but rather, GOD IS LOVE. GOD doesn't have "a divine nature", but rather, GOD IS DIVINE. Do you see the difference.
The Scriptures that you use are about Humans having a Divine attribute/nature of GOD/CHRIST.


Yes -- the divine nature is perfect. Were we created with a perfect nature? I doubt it. If we were, it would have been impossible for us to sin.Then by that very rationale, since we sinned, we were created with an imperfect nature, "in His image and likeness", by an Imperfect God. Right???




I thought we esteblished earlier that mankind was not created perfect. Neither were the angels. Can you cite a Scriptural reference that would indicate otherwise?How does THE PERFECT GOD Create imperfection??? See, this is what happens when you don't have The whole and/or the rest of the Story. All kinds of beliefs, and doctrines of demons, begin to creep into THE WORD of GOD and/or THE THINGS of GOD.

Just look at where your rationale back to: THE PERFECT GOD, THE ONLY GOD, created something Imperfectly.

Question: How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?


I suggest you backtrack and read previous posts by Hope and apothenian.And I suggest you pose to them this question: "How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?"

In Genesis 1:1, is PERFECTION; In Genesis 1:2a, is imperfection; so then what happened to cause the imperfection? Was it GOD? Well, let's see, and here's your "Scriptural reference that would indicate otherwise": "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15)".
Now if PERFECTION Created him "perfect", how could PERFECTION then find imperfection ("iniquity") in that which HE, PERFECTION, had "created" so "perfect"?

See, in order for that which is Created Perfect to become imperfect, that which is Created Perfect has to free-willingly become imperfect ("Lucifer" and "Adam") and/or have some imperfection rub off on it ("Satan as lightning fall from heaven.").

Equipped_4_Love
May 10th 2009, 05:25 PM
The Scriptures that you use are about Humans having a Divine attribute/nature of GOD/CHRIST.

No, my friend -- the Acts verse is about people making idols and worshipping them, and the 1 Peter verse is about partaking in the divine nature of God. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, but I suggest you read these verses in their context.


Then by that very rationale, since we sinned, we were created with an imperfect nature, "in His image and likeness", by an Imperfect God. Right???

Wrong.
Can you please cite a verse that says that we were created perfect? Genesis says that God looked upon His creation, and it was good (Gen. 1:10)...It never says that it was perfect.

Only God is perfect, my friend. Yes, we were created in His image, but that doesn't mean that we were created perfect


How does THE PERFECT GOD Create imperfection???

Again, where in Scripture does it say that the world was created perfect?! Genesis says that it was created good. It didn't become bad until sin entered the world. Imperfect isn't the same as bad -- imperfect just means that it is not perfect.


See, this is what happens when you don't have The whole and/or the rest of the Story. All kinds of beliefs, and doctrines of demons, begin to creep into THE WORD of GOD and/or THE THINGS of GOD.

You know, that's a pretty strong statement. How was anything I said a doctrine of demons? At least I'm using Scripture to back up my views.



Question: How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

And I suggest you pose to them this question: "How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?"

Ask them yourself -- I'm not the middleman.


In Genesis 1:1, is PERFECTION; In Genesis 1:2a, is imperfection; so then what happened to cause the imperfection? Was it GOD? Well, let's see, and here's your "Scriptural reference that would indicate otherwise": "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15)".
Now if PERFECTION Created him "perfect", how could PERFECTION then find imperfection ("iniquity") in that which HE, PERFECTION, had "created" so "perfect"?

The Ezekiel verse is talking about Lucifer, and it says that he was perfect in his ways -- not in his nature. Only God is perfect in nature.
Gen. 6:9 also says that Noah was perfect in his generations. Does this mean that he was perfect in nature? No.

Again, you say that Gen. claims that man was perfect. I'm sorry, but you're wrong.


See, in order for that which is Created Perfect to become imperfect, that which is Created Perfect has to free-willingly become imperfect ("Lucifer" and "Adam") and/or have some imperfection rub off on it ("Satan as lightning fall from heaven.").

Again, please point out the verse that says that man was created perfect

BroRog
May 10th 2009, 06:33 PM
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

It depends on what you mean by "perfect". When we use the word "perfect" in everyday language, we tend to mean "flawless". If something is perfect it has no flaws, shortcomings or defects of any kind.

On the other hand, the concept can be used as a relative measure of what is fitting. For instance, suppose we sit down to play a game of checkers and when I pull out my checker board you notice that the checker board has faded ink, and some of the checkers are worn around the edges. In the sense of "perfect" noted above, I have a flawed checker set with many defects.

Nonetheless, I have a checker board in which we can still discern the white squares from the red, and I have 12 white checkers and 12 black checkers, even if they are scared and rough around the edges. In this case, my set of checkers is "perfect" for a nice game of checkers. That is, if we focus on the purpose and goal, and ignore the material aspects of things, I have all the game board and pieces essential for playing a game of checkers (or draughts if you like.) :) And having all the essential pieces makes the set perfect for the purpose of playing checkers.

When God said that his creation was "good", I believe he meant "it is suitable for the purpose I intend. Like the checker board, it has all the essential pieces required to serve the purpose for which it was created. It doesn't mean, however, that it is flawless or without defect.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 06:38 PM
Again, please point out the verse that says that man was created perfect

Okay. . .as soon as you "point out the verse that says that man was" NOT "created perfect".

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 06:58 PM
Okay. . .as soon as you "point out the verse that says that man was" NOT "created perfect".


That's illogical. Welder is making a statement of negation - asking her to provide a Scripture saying we were not created perfect (in every sense of the word) is akin to asking for scripture to prove we're not supposed to drive cars. In both instances, you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative.

You're making an affirmative statement, so it's only fair for you to provide scripture saying we were created perfect.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 07:38 PM
That's illogical. Welder is making a statement of negation - asking her to provide a Scripture saying we were not created perfect (in every sense of the word) is akin to asking for scripture to prove we're not supposed to drive cars. In both instances, you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative.

You're making an affirmative statement, so it's only fair for you to provide scripture saying we were created perfect.

No, what's "illogical", is "Welder is making a statement of negation", and not having Scripture to prove and/or verify her "statement of negation".

And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"??? You, Welder, and/or anyone else claiming something to be "a negative", doesn't quite make it so.

Claiming that THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Created, made, formed mankind anything less that "Perfect" is "an affirmative statement", which is nowhere in ALL of Scripture, supported by any of Scripture.

It is written, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Athanasius
May 10th 2009, 07:42 PM
It is written, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The above verse warns against empty, vain, etc., philosophy, not simply philosophy (such a statement would be foolishness on the part of Paul). And so, how does a perfect being perform an act of sin? Perfection cannot move to imperfection or else it wasn't perfect to begin with. That's what's being said and I'll have to agree - Adam and Eve were not created perfect.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 07:59 PM
No, what's "illogical", is "Welder is making a statement of negation", and not having Scripture to prove and/or verify her "statement of negation".

And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"??? You, Welder, and/or anyone else claiming something to be "a negative", doesn't quite make it so.

Claiming that THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Created, made, formed mankind anything less that "Perfect" is "an affirmative statement", which is nowhere in ALL of Scripture, supported by any of Scripture.

It is written, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Let me explain it in more simplistic terms then.

You said Scripture makes the point we were made perfect. We're saying nothing in Scripture says that. For us to prove our point, we'd have to quote the entire Bible, since not a single verse says, "Men were made perfect."

So it's up to you to prove your claim.

Is that simple enough?

*Hope*
May 10th 2009, 08:03 PM
Okay...so to sum it up, Adam and Eve were morally perfect, but not epistemically perfect. Correct?

Followtheway
May 10th 2009, 08:13 PM
The word sin means against the Mosaic law that is the 613 laws, so for sin to be introduced there had to be law or commandments. The Lord created the satan for the purpose of allowing Adam and Eve a chance to pick the Lord or not. They were created knowing what he commanded of them when he told them, but they could not reason between good and evil yet.

Equipped_4_Love
May 10th 2009, 08:22 PM
No, what's "illogical", is "Welder is making a statement of negation", and not having Scripture to prove and/or verify her "statement of negation".

Hi, Thom;

I'm sure you would agree with me that the Bible says that when God created man, that it was good, right? Okay, then, so the only question left to be addressed is if the word good here actually means perfect. You believe it does, but it actually does not.

God's creation was good, but it was not perfect. As Xel'nega said, if it were created perfect, then it would not even have the ability to become flawed.

One of the chief characteristics of God's perfection is His is immutability, meaning that He doesn't change. There is no way He can ever become imperfect in any way, because He is an immutably perfect being. It is the very core of His being....It's who He is, what defines Him.

We were never created perfect like that -- we were created good in that we were sinless, and morally pure.


You, Welder, and/or anyone else claiming something to be "a negative", doesn't quite make it so.

It's not our claims that make it a negative -- It's what God says.


Claiming that THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Created, made, formed mankind anything less that "Perfect" is "an affirmative statement", which is nowhere in ALL of Scripture, supported by any of Scripture.

The statement "God did not make anything that wasn't perfect" is nowhere in Scripture. I actually used to believe the same way you did, for a long time, but the more I read the Scriptures, and really pondered the implications, the more I realized that perfection was never something that was instilled in creation.

The very fact that it had the capability to become flawed proves that it was not entirely perfect in every way. God is the only one who can lay claim to that. He is so perfect, that He doesn;t even have the capability to become imperfect.

That's all we're trying to say. Please don't read into our comments what is otherwise not intended. All I'm trying to do is strive to remain faithful to God's word.


It is written, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

I'm sorry -- this doesn't even apply.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 08:33 PM
The above verse warns against empty, vain, etc., philosophy, not simply philosophy (such a statement would be foolishness on the part of Paul). And so, how does a perfect being perform an act of sin? Perfection cannot move to imperfection or else it wasn't perfect to begin with. That's what's being said and I'll have to agree - Adam and Eve were not created perfect.

Regarding the verse, you already know it; here's the definition of the type of "philosophy", aka "theosophy", that its referring to: "1) love of wisdom a) used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life."


Here's "how" to your question: THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Creates you, and gives you a Will withing HIS SOVEREIGN WILL. . .A Perfect Free-Will, that allows you to make FREE choices, that have consequences like "Life" or death (as in ". . .thou shalt surely die");

Ergo, You perfect free-will choose death over life, via you freely choosing to disobey GOD, your CREATOR. Ergo Perfection moves to imperfection through its (your) own perfect volition.

Athanasius
May 10th 2009, 09:14 PM
Regarding the verse, you already know it; here's the definition of the type of "philosophy", aka "theosophy", that its referring to: "1) love of wisdom a) used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life."

Here's "how" to your question: THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Creates you, and gives you a Will withing HIS SOVEREIGN WILL. . .A Perfect Free-Will, that allows you to make FREE choices, that have consequences like "Life" or death (as in ". . .thou shalt surely die");

Ergo, You perfect free-will choose death over life, via you freely choosing to disobey GOD, your CREATOR. Ergo Perfection moves to imperfection through its (your) own perfect volition.

To which I would come back to Colossians 2:8 and say that Paul is warning against deceit by means of philosophy (empty philosophy, as all philosophy, sans God, is by definition empty). He is not, however, condemning philosophical pursuits necessarily.

I'll break it down for you:

Philosophy #1: Adam and Eve were created perfect: morally, ontologically, epistemologically. Scripture does not plainly say this, though we believe it can be inferred from the character of God (how can a perfect being create an imperfect being) and the use of the words 'and it was very good' which conclude Genesis chapter 1.

Philosophy #2: Adam and ever were only created morally perfect. There is no indication in scripture that Adam and Eve were perfect and any inference from God's character is non-sequitur. The use of the words 'it was very good', which conclude Genesis 1, also do not in any way imply created perfection.

We have started from a theological perspective and continued through to a philosophical perspective: the two studies are related. Case in point, your claim that we're created with a perfect free-will is a philosophical proposition brought about on the grounds of theological premises.

So what is it: are we created wholly perfect or are only aspects of our created being perfect (which I would argue: no) - such as 'perfect free will,' as you claim above. I would argue no as it stands true that a perfect being cannot, by any means, become an imperfect being. For a perfect being to become imperfect we would either have 1) a very poor understanding of perfection or 2) a being that wasn't perfect in the first place. If by our wills we can move from perfection to imperfection, well, then we were never perfect. Perhaps, rather, we were created innocent.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 10:16 PM
Regarding the verse, you already know it; here's the definition of the type of "philosophy", aka "theosophy", that its referring to: "1) love of wisdom a) used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life."


Here's "how" to your question: THE ONLY PERFECT GOD Creates you, and gives you a Will withing HIS SOVEREIGN WILL. . .A Perfect Free-Will, that allows you to make FREE choices, that have consequences like "Life" or death (as in ". . .thou shalt surely die");

Ergo, You perfect free-will choose death over life, via you freely choosing to disobey GOD, your CREATOR. Ergo Perfection moves to imperfection through its (your) own perfect volition.


You are aware of the adjectives proceeding the word "philosophy," correct?

THOM
May 10th 2009, 10:17 PM
Let me explain it in more simplistic terms then.

You said Scripture makes the point we were made perfect. We're saying nothing in Scripture says that. For us to prove our point, we'd have to quote the entire Bible, since not a single verse says, "Men were made perfect."

So it's up to you to prove your claim.

Is that simple enough?

Oh yes! "Scripture makes the point we (Mankind was) were" Created "perfect" quite adequately.

Now then, "Let me explain it in more simplistic terms", especially for you.

In order for you to prove your point, that mankind was not Created Perfect by THE ONLY PERFECT GOD, you'd need at least one passage of Scripture, that testifies to that assertion. . .you don't have that one; NOR do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect; NOR can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?


The word sin means against the Mosaic law that is the 613 laws,...

The above is the only part of your post that I'll deal with, because just that statement, albeit true, falls flat on it face when we read in Genesis 4:7, "If thou does well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou does not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.", because GOD stated this to Cain, before the Flood, before Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. . .in other words, generations before Moses.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 10:20 PM
Oh yes! "Scripture makes the point we (Mankind was) were" Created "perfect" quite adequately.

Where? You've yet to show this.



In order for you to prove your point, that mankind was not Created Perfect by THE ONLY PERFECT GOD, you'd need at least one passage of Scripture, that testifies to that assertion. . .

Why?

God says you can't fly in airplanes. You need to give me one Scripture that says you can.


NOR do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect;

I'm not a pantheist, so I don't believe He passes His nature onto us.


NOR can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?

Prove to me that pink unicorns aren't currently in my office.

The most you can do is say, "Well do you see any?" You can't go out and measure what is lacking. Likewise, you keep saying "Provide a verse that says we're not made perfect." Well, if the Bible never makes the claim, why do I need to disprove what has never been claimed?

Athanasius
May 10th 2009, 10:23 PM
Oh yes! "Scripture makes the point we (Mankind was) were" Created "perfect" quite adequately.

Where does scripture make this clear?

THOM
May 10th 2009, 10:41 PM
Hi, Thom;

God's creation was good, but it was not perfect. As Xel'nega said, if it were created perfect, then it would not even have the ability to become flawed.

Welder, let me ask you a few questions about what you're stating here. How does PERFECTION Create imperfection? WHO Created it? Why would THIS WHO tell an imperfect Adam, specifically, that he would "surely die", if he chose disobedience over Eating "freely" from "The Tree of Life"? WHO Cursed the ground because of Adam? Why did GOD drive Adam (and Eve) from the Garden?


We were never created perfect like that -- we were created good in that we were sinless, and morally pure.Sure Adam was "created perfect like that". What would have happened to Adam had he eaten from "The Tree of Life", First?


The statement "God did not make anything that wasn't perfect" is nowhere in Scripture.So then where "in Scripture" is the statement, "GOD Created, made, formed, some things that were imperfect"?




The very fact that it had the capability to become flawed proves that it was not entirely perfect in every way.No W4C, what that proves is that it was Perfect until it "freely" chose to go against its CREATOR, and/or be Cursed (and conditionally judged) by its CREATOR.


I'm sorry -- this doesn't even apply.Not to you.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 10:55 PM
Where? You've yet to show this.


Where does scripture make this clear?

You're both very good at asking questions. . .but when it comes to answering questions...

Let me try again.
Do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect?
How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

What was imperfect about Adam, prior to his disobedience?

Can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 11:03 PM
You're both very good at asking questions. . .but when it comes to answering questions...

Let me try again.
Do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect?
How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

What was imperfect about Adam, prior to his disobedience?

Can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?



I'm not a pantheist, so I don't believe He passes His nature onto us.

Prove to me that pink unicorns aren't currently in my office.

The most you can do is say, "Well do you see any?" You can't go out and measure what is lacking. Likewise, you keep saying "Provide a verse that says we're not made perfect." Well, if the Bible never makes the claim, why do I need to disprove what has never been claimed?

*Sigh*

15 characters

Athanasius
May 10th 2009, 11:03 PM
You're both very good at asking questions. . .but when it comes to answering questions...

Let me try again.
Do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect?
How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

What was imperfect about Adam, prior to his disobedience?

Can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?

You said:

Oh yes! "Scripture makes the point we (Mankind was) were" Created "perfect" quite adequately.
So then, stop dodging the question and show us where you believe scripture makes 'quite clear' we were created perfect. If not I'll close the thread, as moving it to Bible Chat would be redundant considering some of us (you) aren't providing scripture to back up our assertions.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 11:18 PM
You're both very good at asking questions. . .but when it comes to answering questions...

Let me try again.
Do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect?
How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

What was imperfect about Adam, prior to his disobedience?

Can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?


You said:
Oh yes! "Scripture makes the point we (Mankind was) were" Created "perfect" quite adequately.
So then, stop dodging the question and show us where you believe scripture makes 'quite clear' we were created perfect. If not I'll close the thread, as moving it to Bible Chat would be redundant considering some of us (you) aren't providing scripture to back up our assertions.

I asked the those questions (above), no less that twice, each, prior to making that statement. . .if anybody's dodging, it certainly ain't me. Now if you're unable to answer the question then I understand.

But when I ask a question I expect an answer from the one that I ask. . .especially when they are experts as asking questions.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 11:21 PM
I asked the those questions (above), no less that twice, each, prior to making that statement. . .if anybody's dodging, it certainly ain't me. Now if you're unable to answer the question then I understand.

But when I ask a question I expect an answer from the one that I ask. . .especially when they are experts as asking questions.


I've answered your questions twice. You've yet to answer mine.

Athanasius
May 10th 2009, 11:30 PM
I asked the those questions (above), no less that twice, each, prior to making that statement. . .if anybody's dodging, it certainly ain't me. Now if you're unable to answer the question then I understand.

But when I ask a question I expect an answer from the one that I ask. . .especially when they are experts as asking questions.

Your question has already been answered. Your turn. Otherwise as the OP's question has been answered, the thread will be closed.

THOM
May 10th 2009, 11:54 PM
I've answered your questions twice. You've yet to answer mine.

No you haven't! And everybody knows it. You could have easily copied and pasted both questions, and your answers has you done what you now claim to have done. And until you do so, I won't be answering you.


Your question has already been answered. Your turn. Otherwise as the OP's question has been answered, the thread will be closed.

No it hasn't! And until it has been answered, I won't be answering you. See because I know that both you and the OP are stuck, you have the answers. but you're unwilling to post them, because it goes counter to the demonic doctrine that you've laid out already. . .and both of you would rather look good, than be Truthful, right? You do know Scriptural biggie about "pride", don't you?

apothanein kerdos
May 11th 2009, 12:03 AM
No you haven't! And everybody knows it. You could have easily copied and pasted both questions, and your answers has you done what you now claim to have done. And until you do so, I won't be answering you.

Are you for real man?

Post #60 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2069352&postcount=60)

If you want me to be more specific:


NOR do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect;


I'm not a pantheist, so I don't believe He passes His nature onto us.


NOR can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?


Prove to me that pink unicorns aren't currently in my office.

The most you can do is say, "Well do you see any?" You can't go out and measure what is lacking. Likewise, you keep saying "Provide a verse that says we're not made perfect." Well, if the Bible never makes the claim, why do I need to disprove what has never been claimed?

All of that is from post #56 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2069326&postcount=56)

Equipped_4_Love
May 11th 2009, 12:12 AM
No it hasn't! And until it has been answered, I won't be answering you. See because I know that both you and the OP are stuck, you have the answers. but you're unwilling to post them, because it goes counter to the demonic doctrine that you've laid out already. . .and both of you would rather look good, than be Truthful, right? You do know Scriptural biggie about "pride", don't you?


I'm sorry, but............:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

THOM
May 11th 2009, 12:18 AM
Are you for real man?


You're telling what you believe and/or don't believe, and answering questions with question (and I'm shocked that you would do something as un-philosophical as that:o; you're not answering the questions:

Do you have an answer to the question, as to how THE ONLY PERFECT GOD could Created anybody and/or anything imperfect?

How does PERFECTION Create Imperfection?

What was imperfect about Adam, prior to his disobedience?

Can you answer the question, And if "you can't use proof (affirmation) to prove a negative", then how do you know it to be "a negative"?

Athanasius
May 11th 2009, 12:20 AM
Closed pending review.