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Slug1
Oct 5th 2008, 06:54 AM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:

Duane Morse
Oct 5th 2008, 07:37 AM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

ananias
Oct 5th 2008, 09:07 AM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:

The commentary I read about this says the world is divided into two groups: the Kingdom of God (the church) and the kingdom of the world, which is the kingdom of Satan. Excommunication = handing someone over to "the kingdom of the world", i.e, the rule of Satan.

But somehow this explanation doesn't satisfy me. It would be good to see what others come up with.

ananias

Firstfruits
Oct 5th 2008, 10:35 AM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:

Paul was encouraging Timothy to hold on to the faith.but some had turned away from the faith, including Hymenaeus and Alexander.

1 Tim 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1 Tim 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The message is still the same

1 Tim 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

Even Jesus called Peter Satan, because he was an offence to him.

Mt 16:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Was Jesus wrong to call Peter Satan?

Was Paul wrong to point out those that were contrary to The Gospel.

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
God bless

Firstfruits

The Preacher
Oct 5th 2008, 10:57 AM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

Are you sure that you are a Christian? Anyone who rejects Paul's revelation throws out any possibility of understanding the church or God's eternal purpose. However, being new to this particular forum maybe you are just joking?If not then I would like to hear your testimony.

timmyb
Oct 5th 2008, 02:15 PM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:

in 1 Corinthians 5 he told the church to deliver unto Satan the man who was sleeping with his stepmother... meaning to cast him out of the fellowship... because he would not war with the sin in his life and so the church had to judge him and excommunicate him... and if he didn't respond to that, God would judge him in his mercy so he would repent...

seems to me like these two guys were in a similar situation... brothers who would not repent of habitual sin....

timmyb
Oct 5th 2008, 02:18 PM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

so Paul didn't write that under the anointing of the Spirit?

What about when Paul said Imitate me as I imitate Christ?

if the Bible is the inspired word of God in it's entirety... then we cannot discredit what Paul said... and if we get a wrong spirit, then we need to examine and let the Holy Spirit bear witness to what Paul is saying

Lars777
Oct 5th 2008, 06:40 PM
This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:18-20)




Hymenaeus and Alexander we do not know much about them, although they are mentioned elsewhere in these letters to Timothy. In the second letter, Hymenaeus is said to be one who taught that the resurrection was already past, overthrowing the faith of some, (2 Timothy. 2:18).

Yet Paul does not say that Hymenaeus had begun by deviating from doctrine. Somewhere along the line, as Paul suggests here, he had not practiced truth; he had rejected conscience. That led him at last to the error he espoused.

In the second letter to Timothy, Paul speaks of Alexander, the coppersmith, who, he says, had done him great harm. "Beware of him, Timothy," Paul says. "He will do you a lot of damage if you get mixed up with him," (2 Timothy 4:14-15).

What harm he had done the apostle we do not know, but it was this Alexander evidently who had chosen not to act upon truth that he knew, had not followed with a careful, close heart to the Lord, but had rejected conscience and had ultimately "shipwrecked his faith."

Paul says of these two, "I have delivered them to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."

This is not a single act, suddenly taken in the heat of anger. This is the result of a long course of spiritual deterioration which ends in the fourth step suggested by our Lord in Matthew 18.


There in Matthew 18, the Lord says that step one is, if your brother has done something wrong, committed a sin, turned aside, go to him and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

If he hears you, that is the end of the matter; you have gained your brother. But if he does not, then take two or three with you and go again. That is step two.

If he hears them, fine; say no more to anybody else. But if he does not, there has to come the time when you tell it to the church. That is the third step. The whole church is to be engaged in trying to reach an erring brother or sister, someone who has turned aside from the faith.

If he does not hear them, then the fourth step comes, which Paul calls, "delivering [him] unto Satan." Jesus said, "Let him be unto you as a publican and a sinner" (Matthew 18:17), i.e., as not even being a Christian.

By this Paul means, put him back into the world; regard him as having denied by his actions the testimony of his words. This does not mean to have no contact with him.

This is not an act of excommunication that affects his spiritual life. It is clear from this very passage that Paul intends this to be remedial -- so that these men may learn that testifying of truth but not acting on it is blasphemy.

This is destroying the image of God in the eyes of others, making God look ridiculous because they are not consistent in the walk. So Paul says, "I have turned them over.

Let Satan have his way with them. He will damage them, he will hurt them, he will destroy much of their lives, but in the process they will learn that the One who loves them, who can heal them, who can forgive them, is God alone."

So this action is to be taken with the hope that they will eventually return to the Lord.

cdo
Oct 5th 2008, 09:03 PM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

I can't believe what you are saying :oYou are actually making judgement against Paul who was called from God to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles.A person whom God used to write most of the N.T.

And personally I can't even image how someone would call Paul "the worst thing" to happen to the cause of Our Christ. When it is exactly who choose him. I recommend reading The Book of James on the subject of our untamed tongue.

Reynolds357
Oct 5th 2008, 09:55 PM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

I am sure Paul did much more to further the Kingdom of Christ than you, or I, have ever done.

doug3
Oct 5th 2008, 10:15 PM
This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:18-20)




Hymenaeus and Alexander we do not know much about them, although they are mentioned elsewhere in these letters to Timothy. In the second letter, Hymenaeus is said to be one who taught that the resurrection was already past, overthrowing the faith of some, (2 Timothy. 2:18).

Yet Paul does not say that Hymenaeus had begun by deviating from doctrine. Somewhere along the line, as Paul suggests here, he had not practiced truth; he had rejected conscience. That led him at last to the error he espoused.

In the second letter to Timothy, Paul speaks of Alexander, the coppersmith, who, he says, had done him great harm. "Beware of him, Timothy," Paul says. "He will do you a lot of damage if you get mixed up with him," (2 Timothy 4:14-15).

What harm he had done the apostle we do not know, but it was this Alexander evidently who had chosen not to act upon truth that he knew, had not followed with a careful, close heart to the Lord, but had rejected conscience and had ultimately "shipwrecked his faith."

Paul says of these two, "I have delivered them to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."

This is not a single act, suddenly taken in the heat of anger. This is the result of a long course of spiritual deterioration which ends in the fourth step suggested by our Lord in Matthew 18.


There in Matthew 18, the Lord says that step one is, if your brother has done something wrong, committed a sin, turned aside, go to him and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

If he hears you, that is the end of the matter; you have gained your brother. But if he does not, then take two or three with you and go again. That is step two.

If he hears them, fine; say no more to anybody else. But if he does not, there has to come the time when you tell it to the church. That is the third step. The whole church is to be engaged in trying to reach an erring brother or sister, someone who has turned aside from the faith.

If he does not hear them, then the fourth step comes, which Paul calls, "delivering [him] unto Satan." Jesus said, "Let him be unto you as a publican and a sinner" (Matthew 18:17), i.e., as not even being a Christian.

By this Paul means, put him back into the world; regard him as having denied by his actions the testimony of his words. This does not mean to have no contact with him.

This is not an act of excommunication that affects his spiritual life. It is clear from this very passage that Paul intends this to be remedial -- so that these men may learn that testifying of truth but not acting on it is blasphemy.

This is destroying the image of God in the eyes of others, making God look ridiculous because they are not consistent in the walk. So Paul says, "I have turned them over.

Let Satan have his way with them. He will damage them, he will hurt them, he will destroy much of their lives, but in the process they will learn that the One who loves them, who can heal them, who can forgive them, is God alone."

So this action is to be taken with the hope that they will eventually return to the Lord.

Thank you for sharing :)

cheech
Oct 5th 2008, 10:42 PM
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Hymenaeus was known as a heretic. Both he and Alexander had pretty much rejected what was being taught in some way. I've read where some believe they were both excommunicated yet some believe they were in exclusion but whatever the case it was severe discipline. I believe to be delivered to Satan is the same as God turning people over to their sin when they don't listen:

Psalm 81:12
So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices.

Sin is of the world and to follow worldly ways is to follow the ways of Satan. They were turned over to the world of Satan and we all know that when we stop following God and start following sin, our lives become miserable. We are not under the protection of God anymore and the enemy can torment us to no end because we have chosen not to wear our armor of God. Without that armor we have no protection but to have this armor we must have faith and believe.

Tanya~
Oct 5th 2008, 11:21 PM
Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

God doesn't make horrible blunders. He chose Paul for this purpose:


Acts 22:14-15
Then [Ananias said to Paul], 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
NKJV


Jesus doesn't make horrible blunders. He chose Paul, and Paul completed the work that Jesus assigned to him.


Acts 9:15-16

15 But the Lord said to [Ananias concerning Paul], "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."
NKJV

Jesus said to Paul:


Acts 26:16-18
6 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
NKJV


The Holy Spirit doesn't make horrible blunders. He chose Paul for the work of the ministry to which he was appointed.


Acts 13:2
As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said,"Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
NKJV

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 6th 2008, 01:55 AM
It sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander did something Paul didn't like, so he turned them over to the authorities.

To tell you the truth, 1 Timothy really sounds like a really bad high.

It sounds like Paul is simply a self-righteous person getting off on himself and what he thinks is true.


And continuing into chapter 2 - it seems the same.


Personally, I think Paul is the worst thing to happen in the cause of Christ.

One of the stranger posts I've come accross. What do you mean DM...specifically?:confused

mcgyver
Oct 6th 2008, 11:52 AM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:

Hi brother!

There are 3 commonly held viewpoints concerning "delivering unto Satan", all of which come from a 1st century viewpoint/mindset.

1. Excommunication as in the manner of a Jewish synagogue. To be "put out" of the synagogue at this time was equivalent to being placed outside the mercies of God (in Jewish thinking), and given over to Satan. No restoration was possible, once one was out...they were out for good.

2. As Satan was held to be the one who was the cause of all human pain and suffering (in the manner of Job), there is a school of thought that said that to "deliver one to Satan" meant to ask the church to pray that God would allow Satan to cause physical suffering in the person's life; that by this physical pain one would come to repentance (cf. Elymas the sorcerer in Acts 13).

I think however, that the third explanation is the most likely. This is:

3. At this time in the history of the church, a line of demarcation was clearly draw (in the thinking of the people). The Church was "God's territory" and the world was "Satan's territory". Therefore to be "delivered to Satan" was to be put out of fellowship with the church; which included shunning IAW Matt 18:17: "But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Unlike being put out of a synagogue where no restoration was possible, one who was shunned by the church could be received back into full fellowship upon evidence of repentance. Incidentally, the instructions to Timothy not to be hasty in the laying on of hands speaks directly to this issue. In those days, one was received back into full fellowship by a laying on of hands and prayer. Paul is telling Timothy not to be too quick to receive one back simply because they say that they are penitent, but to see if they are in fact doing works that are in keeping with true repentance.

Based on the other writings of Paul, where (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit) he is seeking restoration of a sinning brother rather than punishment (Gal 6:1 et.al.), I believe that Paul is literally saying that he has put them out of fellowship with the church until they come to their senses and repent.

This once again would be in keeping with the thought that the Church was God's territory whereas the world was Satan's territory, as well as tying into his instructions to the Corinthian church regarding the one who had his father's wife (1 Cor 5...the whole thing).

Hope that helps, brother! :)

Emanate
Oct 6th 2008, 01:13 PM
Are you sure that you are a Christian? Anyone who rejects Paul's revelation throws out any possibility of understanding the church or God's eternal purpose. However, being new to this particular forum maybe you are just joking?If not then I would like to hear your testimony.


I would disagree and say that it is Messiah, not Paul, that brings Salvation. In the first century and afterword, for qa few hundred years, many people that had never heard of Paul were saved.

Emanate
Oct 6th 2008, 01:14 PM
It's late, I should be in bed asleep but I'm reading my Bible. I came upon this verse in 1 Timothy:

20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

But what does, "delivered them to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme" mean?

Back to reading and I hope... sleep as well :lol:


Keep in mind, the word satan means adversary and it can also apply to humans.

Steve M
Oct 6th 2008, 01:37 PM
1 Corinthians 5
Expel the Immoral Brother!
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]

1 Corinthians 5 makes Paul's statements more clear, I think. And it also makes more clear that when we do this--when we are forces to withdraw fellowship--we do not do it to abandon our brother, to say 'go to Satan.... go to hell.' Paul is explicit; release him to Satan now in the hopes that this causes him to repent. It is the last-ditch attempt to show them the ultimate consequences of their actions.

And it is exactly what Jesus taught (Matthew 18, as pointed out above, thanks McGyver!)

Mograce2U
Oct 6th 2008, 02:52 PM
Peter addressed a similar issue that Paul did:

(2 Pet 3:1-4) This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: {2} That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: {3} Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, {4} And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

(1 Tim 1:19-20) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: {20} Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

(2 Tim 2:17-18) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; {18} Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

What connects these passages together is the idea that God will not judge. Peter speaks of scoffers who say the Lord is not coming back and Paul speaks of men who say the resurrection is past. Both groups in view are able to do this because the judgment had not yet come. Paul likens these men who oppose him to Jannes & Jambres (Ex 7:11) who opposed Moses. The allusion is therefore to false prophets and how it is they turn scripture/ prophecy upside down to deceive. The apostles were warning that a judgment was coming and that the saints needed to hold fast to their hope and the words of Christ because of the tribulation they were in from those men who were persecuting them - which by the time Paul wrote his 2nd letter to Timothy, would soon be over.

(2 Tim 4:1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;