PDA

View Full Version : Image and Likeness



Richard H
Oct 5th 2008, 02:56 PM
I write this on the first day of the week.
I don’t expect that everyone will agree with everything (or even one thing) I am about to say, but bear with me please.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows there are two accounts of creation. One account tells of six days and a seventh for rest.
The other account speaks of the creation of Adam and then begins the accounting of the generations leading to Yeshua, Jesus Christ. (OT & NT)

Whether, one believes in six days for creation or not, is not the point of this perspective.
If one follows the begets of 2nd account and then adds 2,000 years, this brings us to approximately 6,000 years.

We’ve all read:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Peter 3:8
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 90:4

So this brings us currently to (approximately) 6 millennium.
The seventh will be the Sabbath, the time when man has a rest from Satan’s influence for 1000 years.
Assuming the Lord’s second coming is near, we would be approaching the close of the 6th millennium and the beginning of mankind’s Sabbath rest.

In Genesis 1, the seven days laid out for creation, YHWH makes mankind in HIS image and likeness on the sixth day.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:26,27

In Genesis 2, by logic of order, man was created on the third day. (Before the plants - Gen 2:5)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:7

Man (Adam and Eve) was created in the likeness of God.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
Gen 5:1,2

But Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:3

Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam – the fallen Adam. Thus we are all in the image and likeness of the fallen Adam.
(see below)

I’ll have to do a word study, but as I understand it “image” indicates how one appears.
Likeness is a similitude – having similarities with something or someone else.


So the Man in Genesis 1 was created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam was created having some similarities to God – in HIS likeness.
Seth was born in Adam’s image and likeness.
So here’s my question:
Since the seventh millennium – is (could be) man’s Sabbath rest, and man was not created (Gen 1) until the sixth day,
might the making of man in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1), be referring to the resurrection/rapture when we are given “glorified” or heavenly bodies?

In the form of a statement: (if you agree with my assumptions)
The making of man (Gen 1) in the image and likeness of God is referring to the resurrection/rapture.

Of course, I’m NOT saying we shall be as God.
But there is Scripture which says that we shall be like the angels.
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:30


There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:40-53

Thoughts?

Richard

cdo
Oct 5th 2008, 10:27 PM
Right now I can't post on all of your post but,I curious about somethings that I wonder and studied over.

Gen 1:26,27....'in our own image/after our likeness'God made man.
Gen 1:28...God blessed those He created and gave dominion over the fish,fowl,and every living thing that moves upon the earth.
Gen 1:29-31...God speaks and 'gives'to them(male&female).This was the 6th day and it was very good.

Then we have the 7th day.God blessed the 7th day and rested from all His work.

Gen 2:5..second part of verse 5* and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8....And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had Formed.

So God made man in His own image and likeness in Gen.!:26,27......and God Formed man from the dust and breathed life into him....Gen 2:7.
Question:Is the first creation of male/female the races of the world? And is the man formed in Gen 2:7 (Adam) to till the ground and the one who the rib taken from to make woman Gen2:22 and they became one flesh.(Eve)

There is no time frame between Gen 1:26,27 and Gen 2:7 and 2:22 even if it was a 8th day creation (no time frame)
And if this is not right, then where would all the races come from?
Also Cain when He ?went? to Nod and took a wife from a different tribe.
Thoughts..........

IamBill
Oct 5th 2008, 11:39 PM
Anyone who has read the Bible knows there are two accounts of creation. One account tells of six days and a seventh for rest.
The other account speaks of the creation of Adam and then begins the accounting of the generations leading to Yeshua, Jesus Christ. (OT & NT)


In Genesis 1, the seven days laid out for creation, YHWH makes mankind in HIS image and likeness on the sixth day.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:26,27

In Genesis 2, by logic of order, man was created on the third day. (Before the plants - Gen 2:5)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:7

There’s no mention of man being formed in the image and likeness of God. (Gen2)
The first time we encounter “image” and “likeness”, is the birth of Seth.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:3

Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam – the fallen Adam. Thus we are all in the image and likeness of the fallen Adam.
(see below)

So here’s my question:
Since the seventh millennium – is (could be) man’s Sabbath rest, and man was not created (Gen 1) until the sixth day,
might the making of man in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1), be referring to the resurrection/rapture when we are given “glorified” or heavenly bodies?

In the form of a statement: (if you agree with my assumptions)
The making of man (Gen 1) in the image and likeness of God is referring to the resurrection/rapture.

Of course, I’m NOT saying we shall be as God.
But there is Scripture which says that we shall be like the angels.
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:30


There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:40-53

Thoughts?

Richard

Hello Richard,
I'm not sure about it referring to res/rap, but to my understanding you are correct - Adam and Eve were 'heavenly forms'(bodies),(Gods Image/likeness), prior to eating of the fruit. (and why they tried to cover themselves immediately after doing so- "their eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked" )

:)

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 01:17 AM
Right now I can't post on all of your post but,I curious about somethings that I wonder and studied over.

Gen 1:26,27....'in our own image/after our likeness'God made man.
Gen 1:28...God blessed those He created and gave dominion over the fish,fowl,and every living thing that moves upon the earth.
Gen 1:29-31...God speaks and 'gives'to them(male&female).This was the 6th day and it was very good.

Then we have the 7th day.God blessed the 7th day and rested from all His work.

Gen 2:5..second part of verse 5* and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8....And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had Formed.

So God made man in His own image and likeness in Gen.!:26,27......and God Formed man from the dust and breathed life into him....Gen 2:7.
Question:Is the first creation of male/female the races of the world? And is the man formed in Gen 2:7 (Adam) to till the ground and the one who the rib taken from to make woman Gen2:22 and they became one flesh.(Eve)

There is no time frame between Gen 1:26,27 and Gen 2:7 and 2:22 even if it was a 8th day creation (no time frame)
And if this is not right, then where would all the races come from?
Also Cain when He ?went? to Nod and took a wife from a different tribe.
Thoughts..........
HI cdo,



I still have many questions about Gen 1 & 2, but I noticed:

Gen 1 – Sixth day - man created in the image and likeness of God.
Gen 2 – Third day - If you look back at the sequence of events in Gen 1, Adam could only have been created on the third day.
‘Created of the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7), before the plants (Gen 2:5).
There is no image and likeness to God mentioned – only Seth being born in the image and likeness of Adam. (Gen 5:3)
It occurred to me that these were not the same.
People assume they are the same, but the days are different, only one is made in God’s image.

Perhaps the account in Gen 1 is sort of a type of God’s 7,000 year time-line for HIS creation.



The main points being:

In the beginning YHWH…
Created everything.
He set up a seven day/millennium time-table.
Sometime in/(at the end of) the sixth day (6th millennium) HE will make man into HIS “image” and “likeness”.
The 7th millennium is a Sabbath, A special day set aside, when God/Jesus would once again walk with man in the cool of the day.
Our 1000 year rest from the wiles of the serpent.
Other parts of the account in Gen 1 fill in the gaps, but are not so important.

To answer you question, (assuming I’m not way off in left field)
The account in Genesis 1 is not the formation of man from the dust, but the making of mankind into beings with heavenly bodies. (Resurrection)
Genesis 2 (The account of Adam and Eve), actually begins the historic bloodline through the ages.

Where the various races came from – locations and food sources seem to have influence over character traits over generations.
This is not my forte’ but, I’ve seen the explanation on a recent thread somewhere.

Cain is not my forte’ either (as if I have one). Yes, it says he went to the land of Nod – East of Eden.
There’s no accounting for them, but there seems to be some other people whom Cain was afraid would kill him.
I suppose that is where he got a wife. I’ve wondered about all that myself.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 02:09 AM
Hello Richard,
I'm not sure about it referring to res/rap, but to my understanding you are correct - Adam and Eve were 'heavenly forms'(bodies),(Gods Image/likeness), prior to eating of the fruit. (and why they tried to cover themselves immediately after doing so- "their eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked" )

:)
Hi Bill,
I was taught the same thing. I’m not saying it is wrong, but I wanted to look at Scripture – with the two accounts of creation – and see how it could fit together.

Certainly Adam and Eve were created as innocents – not knowing good from evil. When their innocence was lost, they ran and hid.
However, the account of their creation does not mention their being made in the image and likeness of God.

Here's a description of how things were right before Adam was created.
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground--
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Gen 2:4-7

This man, Adam could only have been made on the third day if reckoned according to Genesis 1.

And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so.
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Gen 1:9-13

The man in Genesis 1 is made in the image and likeness of God, but Adam’s account says that he was only in the likeness of God..
It does say that his son, Seth was born in Adam’s image and likeness.

I’ve wondered many times why there should be two accounts.
And I had always assumed them to be the same account, but since God’s Word is true, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies.

It really does not affect your salvation if you believe as you were taught. My goal is not to disrupt anyone’s belief - only to better understand God’s word and the meaning behind these two accounts.

Richard

Dani H
Oct 6th 2008, 02:22 AM
Acts 3:20-22

and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

To me, this speaks of returning to things before the fall, which I think also ties into the fact that Jesus is the Second Adam. But it may even go beyond that, I haven't gotten my brain totally wrapped around this yet. And by "brain" I mean "understanding".

And so Jesus, who is the likeness of the Father ... and His Bride, who bears His likeness ... I see how that is all related and interconnected.

However, the first Adam was created, not begotten. Jesus, however, was begotten. I am quite alright with taking on His image when I get my incorruptible body. New heaven, new earth, new body ... bring it on. :)

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 02:44 AM
Note: If you're reading this after the time of this editing (see bottom for time and date),
you can dismiss it, because I've corrected the OP and my reply to IamBill.

Richard

I just saw that I missed something in my post.
I can’t believe I missed it!

It says that the “man” (Adam and Eve) was created in the likeness of God,
But Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
Gen 5:1,2
When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
Gen 5:3

I’ll have to do a word study, but as I understand it “image” indicates how one appears.
Likeness is a similitude – having similarities with something or someone else.


So the Man in Genesis 1 was created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam was created having some similarities to God – in HIS likeness.
Seth was born in Adam’s image and likeness.
Confusing isn’t it? L.O.L.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 02:51 AM
Acts 3:20-22

and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

To me, this speaks of returning to things before the fall, which I think also ties into the fact that Jesus is the Second Adam. But it may even go beyond that, I haven't gotten my brain totally wrapped around this yet. And by "brain" I mean "understanding".

And so Jesus, who is the likeness of the Father ... and His Bride, who bears His likeness ... I see how that is all related and interconnected.

However, the first Adam was created, not begotten. Jesus, however, was begotten. I am quite alright with taking on His image when I get my incorruptible body. New heaven, new earth, new body ... bring it on. :)

You're right Dani,
That was one of the things I was saying. When we're resurrected/raptured, we will be in His "image" (heavenly bodies) as well as His likeness (similitude).

If only I hadn't goofed it up... :blush:

Richard

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 05:51 AM
Richard, bare with me please.
I think I would be in the neighborhood if I can get this......The 6th day creation, I believe.So if or we are in the 6th day creation and God blessed the 7th day with rest.This coming up millenium is when we will be changed into the image and likeness of God.This would be the day of rest(from satan) while he is bound.

Am I kinda headed in the right direction?
Darlene

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 06:30 AM
Richard, bare with me please.
I think I would be in the neighborhood if I can get this......The 6th day creation, I believe.So if or we are in the 6th day creation and God blessed the 7th day with rest.This coming up millenium is when we will be changed into the image and likeness of God.This would be the day of rest(from satan) while he is bound.

Am I kinda headed in the right direction?
Darlene
You got it, Darlene! :pp
I messed up the part about Adam (now corrected in the OP).
He WAS created in the likeness of God, but not the image. The gist is the same, though.

That first account seemes (to me) to be prophecy - sort of an outline for God's creation lasting 7 days/millennium.

Adam was created in the likeness of God (on the 3rd day), but here in Gen 1 we see male and female created in HIS image as well.
Image is even stressed, by repeating it. This account in Genesis 1 is the 6th Day.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:26,276

It has to be the mystery of God - the resurrection/rapture at the seventh trumpet - the last trump.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:7

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
"O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
1Co 15:51,55

Then Satan is bound for 1000 years, so that the remenant of Judah (Jews) and the survivors among the nations can be ruled by Yeshua/Jesus, Messiah without Satan's influence.
A sort of Sabbath rest during the 7th "day".

Thanks for sticking to it and getting it. :spin:

I could be in left field :crazy:, but I don't think so.

Richard

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 04:08 PM
:pp Richard...
Ok, I'm trying not to get off and derail...:pray:
I always heard of an eighth day....new beginning....So, after the (mill) is pasted and the fulfilling of the word.......We are in "our" new beginning.....Thoughts????
I did search out last night about the 3rd day creation and yes, its like a prophecy of the time frame of when the creation really begins.Because of the things (the plants,animals,and so forth) then.
Question...Not to derail but, to understand. Perhaps a new thread on the races....I might start but, I'm just looking for answers or a starting point.What do you think? thoughts...
thanks for helping me and most to God to search it out.God Bless,Darlene:)

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 06:52 PM
:pp Richard...
Ok, I'm trying not to get off and derail...:pray:
I always heard of an eighth day....new beginning....So, after the (mill) is pasted and the fulfilling of the word.......We are in "our" new beginning.....Thoughts????
I did search out last night about the 3rd day creation and yes, its like a prophecy of the time frame of when the creation really begins.Because of the things (the plants,animals,and so forth) then.
Question...Not to derail but, to understand. Perhaps a new thread on the races....I might start but, I'm just looking for answers or a starting point.What do you think? thoughts...
thanks for helping me and most to God to search it out.God Bless,Darlene:)
Hi Darlene,
There’s only one mention of an eight day in Scripture, but it isn’t speaking about God’s 7 day week.
They began to consecrate on the first day of the first month, and on the eighth day of the month
2Ch 29:17

No I don’t know some of this stuff off the top of my head. J
I’ve got a free program called e-Sword. You can Google it.
It sure helps in finding verses.

From what I know: an “eight day” is a man-made concept making some reference to God’s “seven days”.

This we do know from Scripture: when the 7 millennium is complete and after the great “day” of Judgment (a “day” is not always 1000 years),
God will do away with the old earth and create a new earth which is not all messed up.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Isa 65:17

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:8-13

I think "heavenly bodies" above means the cosmos.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:7

As for what happens after that:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:24-28

I don’t know exactly what this means, but it could be that God will cease functioning as Father and Son and Spirit – having accomplished His will.
He will simply be GOD – even with a new name.

The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Rev 3:12

As for the origin of the races – I’m tapped out. Try a thread search. If you can’t find anything then a new thread might help you.

Richard

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 08:08 PM
Thanks Richard for your input.:)
I started a thread about the races but,nothing yet!
A few has passed by...but,I didn't think of a thread search.
I'll check that out. I got the E~sword a couple of weeks ago but still trying to figure it out and find scriptures.:hmm:
Thanks & God Bless, Darlene :hug:

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 08:08 PM
Also Darlene,
The burning away of the old Earth and the old cosmos is not something we have to fear.
We will not be subject to this distruction, as we will be raised imortal to be with God forever. :pp

Like the angel said, "Fear not!" :spin:

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 08:20 PM
:pp
Yes, Glory to God :pp
Big thanks,Darlene

Richard H
Oct 6th 2008, 08:42 PM
Sent PM with basic tips for e-Sword.

I'll be happy to send them to anyone else who needs help with searching or adding other Bible versions. Just PM me. :)

Richard

IamBill
Nov 9th 2008, 08:50 PM
Hi Bill,
I was taught the same thing. I’m not saying it is wrong, but I wanted to look at Scripture – with the two accounts of creation – and see how it could fit together.

Certainly Adam and Eve were created as innocents – not knowing good from evil. When their innocence was lost, they ran and hid.
However, the account of their creation does not mention their being made in the image and likeness of God.

Here's a description of how things were right before Adam was created.
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground--
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Gen 2:4-7

This man, Adam could only have been made on the third day if reckoned according to Genesis 1.

And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so.
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Gen 1:9-13

The man in Genesis 1 is made in the image and likeness of God, but Adam’s account says that he was only in the likeness of God..
It does say that his son, Seth was born in Adam’s image and likeness.

I’ve wondered many times why there should be two accounts.
And I had always assumed them to be the same account, but since God’s Word is true, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies.

It really does not affect your salvation if you believe as you were taught. My goal is not to disrupt anyone’s belief - only to better understand God’s word and the meaning behind these two accounts.

Richard

the only teacher I've had is the Holy Spirit, so.. "believe as I was taught" ?? ...
Though I don't always understand, nor express myself well, I do understand what is given for me to understand, the rest is speculation and I do try to make that clear ->(""I'm not sure about it referring to res/rap..."")

That said, Gen 2 is not intended as a "recap" with a flaw, or a more detailed description of the 6th day as many appear to think.
Gen 2 is, what it is.
the "Image and Likeness" of GOD the Father ? - is not a physical one.
Flesh cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, Flesh cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
The "fruit" did exactly what God said it would do (unless one wants to doubt his word)
He didn't say he would be really Mad for eating it, it was not a "death threat", It was a warning out of Love for his creation(A/E).

The real question I think, is not 'why did God say they would die', but more like 'what did God mean by "die" when they lived on nearly a thousand years ?
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

""And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked""
....Enter ->Flesh

FaithfulSheep
Nov 10th 2008, 12:03 AM
I have read only your initial post so far, but I have been reading as well (about Heaven actually) and I think you are indeed right on.

2 Corinthians 5:3 says... "We will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies."

and Philippians 3:20-21 says... "The Lord Jesus Christ... will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

Our bodies on this earth are restricted due to the curse of man. These are the remnants of the original bodies God made for us that were changed after the fall.

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 05:43 AM
the only teacher I've had is the Holy Spirit, so.. "believe as I was taught" ?? ...
Though I don't always understand, nor express myself well, I do understand what is given for me to understand, the rest is speculation and I do try to make that clear ->(""I'm not sure about it referring to res/rap..."")

That said, Gen 2 is not intended as a "recap" with a flaw, or a more detailed description of the 6th day as many appear to think.
Gen 2 is, what it is.
the "Image and Likeness" of GOD the Father ? - is not a physical one.
Flesh cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, Flesh cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
The "fruit" did exactly what God said it would do (unless one wants to doubt his word)
He didn't say he would be really Mad for eating it, it was not a "death threat", It was a warning out of Love for his creation(A/E).

The real question I think, is not 'why did God say they would die', but more like 'what did God mean by "die" when they lived on nearly a thousand years ?
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

""And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked""
....Enter ->Flesh
Hi IamBill,
You know it hits home - about your teacher being the Holy Spirit.
I’ve read some Christian books, but they often take a whole chapter to make a point or two.
Mostly, my human author/teacher has been Paul – in light of all Scripture and the Spirit.

The resurrection/rapture I’m referring to is in 1 Thessalonians 4
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:15-17

It can be confusing, because many people who speak of "the rapture" are talking of a "catching-away" of the saints before the great tribulation.
They hold to a "pre-tribulation" "rapture", but that is not my view.

I believe the event happens at the seventh trumpet - the "last trump" - close to the end of the tribulation - but before the bowels of wrath.
That is why I call it the "resurrection/rapture" - which is what is written of in the verses above.

The verses speak of the end time. There are two resurrections. Much of what I'm going to write about is in Revelation 20.
As most understand it, the first is the resurrection of Christians and then there is what has become known as “the rapture”. (1 Thes 4:15-17)

This catching-away is about those who survive and remain alive at the coming of Jesus.
They do not taste death, but are transformed from life directly to everlasting life.

Then there is 1000 years of Jesus being King of all the earth.
During that time, Satan is locked away and cannot lead people astray or even torment them.

If you add up all the generations going back to Adam, it adds up to about 4000 years.
It has been about 2000 years from the time of Jesus. So the total is 6000 years.

In 2 Peter chapter 3, Peter is speaking about the apparent delay in the promise of Christ’s returning.
In verse 8, he gives us a clue of how to interpret the timing.
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Peter 3:8

So one could conclude that these 6000 years are also known as 6 days.
The seventh day is the Sabbath, a day of rest. It is the 1000 years during the reign of Christ, when creation has a rest from corruption and the saints have a rest from working against Satan.

After that 1000 years of rest, the rest of the dead are raised and then the judgment.

I think all this is sort of outlined in Genesis 1, so we agree that the first two chapters are not a recap.
And I agree (as would most) that likeness refer not to physical likeness, but other attributes.
But I think "image" is speaking about the imortality we will put on one day.
See below - where I write about "the rapture".

It’s interesting that you should bring up God’s warning Adam and Eve about the fruit.
I used to assume that God had planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
But I’ve recently concluded that Satan planted the tree and God was indeed warning them.
"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matthew 13:25

I think when God said they would die, He was talking about being subject to the second death – the lake of fire at the judgment.
‘Just my opinion. J

Blessings,
Richard

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 06:01 AM
I have read only your initial post so far, but I have been reading as well (about Heaven actually) and I think you are indeed right on.

2 Corinthians 5:3 says... "We will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies."

and Philippians 3:20-21 says... "The Lord Jesus Christ... will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

Our bodies on this earth are restricted due to the curse of man. These are the remnants of the original bodies God made for us that were changed after the fall.
Hi FaithfulSheep, J
Yes. Now in our earthly shells - we have fragile and mortal bodies.

When we die, we put on a heavenly body (or even just freed of our physical shell), but the spirit lacks the physical presence.
Jesus is coming in a glorified physical body, and at the resurrection/rapture, we who are dead will reunite with the physical.
To me, that is the purpose of the resurrection.

We aren’t told in Revelation 21 that we will be in the paradise of God’s kingdom in heaven,
but that heaven will come to earth and all will be renewed without the corruption of Satan.

“Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.” :pp

Blessings,
Richard

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 10th 2008, 06:11 AM
Hello ЯIᄃΉΛЯD Ή

So one could conclude that these 6000 years are also known as 6 days.I was wondering according to the jew calendar in what year are we now+?

Another point:

◘ Adam was created having some similarities to God – in HIS likeness.
.....the image and likeness...His likeness equal His character.
That is what was lost when men fell, and now throught the ministry and service of Jesus in the true sactuary, is to be restored in us.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hebrews 9:24

But this could be tricky, for someone could think Jesus will appear in the judgement in our stead, when we should be having a perfect character you know..

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 06:55 AM
Hello ЯIᄃΉΛЯD Ή
I was wondering according to the jew calendar in what year are we now+?

Another point:
His likeness equal His character.
That is what was lost when men fell, and now throught the ministry and service of Jesus in the true sactuary, is to be restored in us.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hebrews 9:24

But this could be tricky, for someone could think Jesus will appear in the judgement in our stead, when we should be having a perfect character you know..
Hi ƒσяєяυииєя, J
I have a Jewish calendar program, Kaluach (freeware)
You can Google it. It has a number of years calculated (by rabbis – I suppose) since the creation of the world.
Details menu | Year Details

I’m reluctant to post the number only because we are not to “set a date” on the board and it might lead someone to calculate a date.
Doing so would be unwise anyway, but we can get an idea of an approximate time if one holds to literal translation.

I use it as a reference, but God’s calendar is based upon the sighting of the new moon by two witnesses.
If it’s cloudy, the month starts a day later – so we can never know an exact future date.

Yes, I think “likeness” would portray character.
In Seth’s case, being in the likeness of Adam, he was a sinner.

Actually, the way I see the judgment – and even now – Jesus, the Mediator always stands between us and the Father.
When YHWH looks toward us, HE sees the righteousness of Jesus.

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Timothy 2:5

The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:23-25

Blessings,
Richard

divaD
Nov 10th 2008, 02:38 PM
You got it, Darlene! :pp
I messed up the part about Adam (now corrected in the OP).
He WAS created in the likeness of God, but not the image. The gist is the same, though.

That first account seemes (to me) to be prophecy - sort of an outline for God's creation lasting 7 days/millennium.

Adam was created in the likeness of God (on the 3rd day), but here in Gen 1 we see male and female created in HIS image as well.
Image is even stressed, by repeating it. This account in Genesis 1 is the 6th Day.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:26,276

It has to be the mystery of God - the resurrection/rapture at the seventh trumpet - the last trump.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:7

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
"O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
1Co 15:51,55

Then Satan is bound for 1000 years, so that the remenant of Judah (Jews) and the survivors among the nations can be ruled by Yeshua/Jesus, Messiah without Satan's influence.
A sort of Sabbath rest during the 7th "day".

Thanks for sticking to it and getting it. :spin:

I could be in left field :crazy:, but I don't think so.

Richard





Hi Richard. I fail to see how Adam was formed on day 3. I recall on another forum that someone else also held this position. This person spent countless days and posts, but was still unable to reconcile this view with the Bible, especially with Genesis ch 1.

As far as God making Adam in His likeness, but not in His image, this is not so.

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Since God is speaking to Noah and his 3 sons here, we know that when God made man in His image, that it was indeed referring to Adam(Genesis 1:26-27), since Noah and his 3 sons can be directly traced back to Adam, and not to some other alleged created people on day 6.

But if God actually created other people besides Adam on day 6, then Genesis 9:6 couldn't apply to Noah and his 3 sons, because they descended from Adam(according to you, Adam was made only in the likeness of God but not in His image). God tells us in this verse that He made man in His image. Genesis 1:26-27 tells us the same thing. Man that God made in His image can only be referring to Adam, whom after the woman was formed, together they were the beginning of all mankind.


Genesis 5:1 clearly tells us that God made Adam in His likeness.
Genesis 9:6 clearly tells us that God made man in His image. Putting it all together, What Genesis 1:26-27 adds up to is this, Adam was that man, and God never created other people besides Adam and Eve.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 10th 2008, 05:02 PM
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:23-25

Yah I don`t know if I expressed it correctly.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6.

So someone could say or think, oh Jesus will present His holy and perfect character when in the judgement my name be called to appear before the august Shekinah (I don`t know if it is spelled right)

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:12

When Jesus presents His character instead of ours is when we are justified by faith, you know the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, [1 Peter 3:18] but if in the final judgement When our eternal destiny will be determined Jesus would present His perfect character instead of ours then, what purpose would have had all the wornderfull promises to achieve a perfect character?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

God bless

Diolectic
Nov 10th 2008, 05:30 PM
Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam – the fallen Adam. Thus we are all in the image and likeness of the fallen Adam.
(see below)Yes, Adam fell, but he was also foregiven and raised up again, through his obediance and trusting God.
Adam knew what Gen 3:15 meant; And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
Adam knew it was about a future savour.
Adam was made rightous again by faith just as Abraham and we are.


I’ll have to do a word study, but as I understand it “image” indicates how one appears.
Likeness is a similitude – having similarities with something or someone else.


So the Man in Genesis 1 was created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam was created having some similarities to God – in HIS likeness.
Seth was born in Adam’s image and likeness.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters in verse 4 after his image.
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.


What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent.
The lineage of Cain is unrighteous, not in the image of his father, Adam.
the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brought Noah & he was righteous.

Notice: It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".

If it is as some imply that Adam's image is now sinful or "fallen" in contrast to that of when God made Adam & Eve in His image & After His likeness; Then it would surely say that Adam begat Cain "after his image"; and it wouldn’t make a distinction between Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.
However, it only says that Seth & him only is "after his image".


So here’s my question:
Since the seventh millennium – is (could be) man’s Sabbath rest, and man was not created (Gen 1) until the sixth day,
might the making of man in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1), be referring to the resurrection/rapture when we are given “glorified” or heavenly bodies?

In the form of a statement: (if you agree with my assumptions)
The making of man (Gen 1) in the image and likeness of God is referring to the resurrection/rapture.Here is my take on it:
2Peter 3:5-8 "for this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water :6 whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: : 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." :8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Here, Peter made statements about the time before Noah and the flood to about the time when He wrote the Epistle. The first statement would be of the time from creation to the time of Noah and the flood in verse 5 & 6, which is two thousand years or two days according to Peter.

Verse 7 tells of the time from Noah and the flood to the time that He wrote the Epistle, We can see this by the words "which are now". There has been over four thousand years from creation to then, in other words, he is writing from with in the fifth day. At this present time, there has been about two thousand years from the time that Peter wrote his Epistle until now.

When we count the days from Adam to Noah, there have been two thousand years, or two days.

When we count the days from Noah to the time when Jesus came into the World for His Earthly Ministry there have been two more thousand years, or two more days.

Finally, from the time of Jesus in His Earthly Ministry until now would be two thousand more years or two days. All in all this adds to 6 days.

Nevertheless, I am trying to do here is validate the fourth day of the creation account of the sun and moon as being good examples for the sun representing Jesus and the Moon representing His Church.
Now let's look at the creation account for this analogy.
Gen 1:14-19 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: :15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.: 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also" : 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. : 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. : 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

The fourth day according to Peter or in the four thousandth year from the beginning of creation is also the time that Jesus came to Earth in the flesh and started His Church. When the Father received Jesus to His right hand, He then gave us the duty of working the works of the Father who sent Jesus.


So here’s my question:
Since the seventh millennium – is (could be) man’s Sabbath rest, and man was not created (Gen 1) until the sixth day,
might the making of man in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1), be referring to the resurrection/rapture when we are given “glorified” or heavenly bodies?

In the form of a statement: (if you agree with my assumptions)
The making of man (Gen 1) in the image and likeness of God is referring to the resurrection/rapture. No, because then, Adam would not have been created in the image and likeness of GOD, but would have been put or turned into the image and likeness of GOD the next day.

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 07:01 PM
Hi Richard. I fail to see how Adam was formed on day 3. I recall on another forum that someone else also held this position. This person spent countless days and posts, but was still unable to reconcile this view with the Bible, especially with Genesis ch 1.
...
<snipped to make room for my reply>
Hi divaD, J
First, I’m not saying anything like God created other people besides Adam and Eve.
(And having not read the other thread you referred to, I can neither defend nor deny any part of that discussion.)

I’m merely saying, that a possibility for the dual accounts – the creation of creation and the creation of mankind –
could be for an additional purpose than: to specify that God created creation and He also created people.

Here are some things I think I understand:
And I approach Scripture literally, with an understanding that there is:
symbolism also involved, and parallels, types, and all sorts of evidence of the manifold (many folded) wisdom and purposes of God.

If one adds up the generations from Adam to Jesus it comes to a round number of 4000 years.
Since this is 2008 AD, we can add a round number of 2000 years. ‘Totaling a round number of 6000 years for creation.

In 2 Peter 3:8 - Peter is speaking about the end times or rather when the Lord returns.
He gives us a clue as to how to think about the timing of such things.
I am not trying to set a date or anything, but only to look at the overall meaning of God’s timetable.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Peter 3:8

So six days of creation could be thought of as six thousand years.

I feel I am walking such a fine line, because I’m not out to dissuade anyone from the idea that the world was created in six days.
And the seventh day was sanctified by God and He rested from His work.

In Revelation 20, we see another 1000 years, “the millennium”, a type of Sabbath rest –
when creation is not influenced by Satan and the saints can rest from spiritual warfare.

Now to answer you concerning the possibility of Adam being formed on the third day:

I will use the NASB for Gen 2:1-8, as it is a bit easier to understand the part about the plants.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
Genesis 2:1-4 NASB

Here God rested from His work and sanctified the seventh day.
What follows in the text must not be a continuation as God has already completed all His work.

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
Genesis 2:5-8 NASB

This is the account of Adam. It does not specify which day, but it cannot be the seventh day, and if we look at the text, it says that there were no plants yet.
And neither was there a man to till the ground or otherwise tend to the plants.
The implication – to me – is that plants are for food and with the introduction of food, there would be people to eat it and tend to it.
No, I’m not a vegetarian. J

Let’s look back at Genesis one and see when there plants first appeared.

Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
There was evening and there was morning, a third day.
Gen 1:9-13

So on the third day (Gen 1), plants appeared. But in Gen 2, is says that there were no plants yet when Adam was created.

So there is a discrepancy, but I think the Bible is trustworthy - the living and active truth.
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Heb 4:12

This is already getting too long, so let me sum it up and simplify it, please.
IMHO:
Genesis 1 is (how shall I say?) a type of overall time frame laid out for creation.
The 7th Millennium being the 7th day.
And the creation of Mankind (male & female) in the image and the likeness of God - in Genesis 1:26,27 – referring to our putting on immortality just prior to the 7th millennium.

Edit:
Likeness being; character
As Seth was in a sinner in the likeness of Adam. (Gen 5:3)
Image being: immortality and incorruption.

I think I’m done. J Whew!

Blessings, D.
Richard

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 07:31 PM
Yah I don`t know if I expressed it correctly.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6.

So someone could say or think, oh Jesus will present His holy and perfect character when in the judgement my name be called to appear before the august Shekinah (I don`t know if it is spelled right)

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:12

When Jesus presents His character instead of ours is when we are justified by faith, you know the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, [1 Peter 3:18] but if in the final judgement When our eternal destiny will be determined Jesus would present His perfect character instead of ours then, what purpose would have had all the wornderfull promises to achieve a perfect character?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

God blessI totally agree with you, ƒσяєяυииєя

We all stand before God (and in effect all will be guilty), but Christians have a reprieve.
Because our righteousness is not of our own doing, but through faith in what Christ did for all.

Now as for rewards:
I think they are seperate from the judgement and afterwards.

The higher calling of Jesus in Mathew 5 calls us to obeying God from the heart.
To "be perfect" - as I understand it, is a future imperative - a goal which is always in the future, and which we're always to strive toward.

Richard H
Nov 10th 2008, 08:27 PM
Yes, Adam fell, but he was also foregiven and raised up again, through his obediance and trusting God.
[/font]

Adam knew what Gen 3:15 meant; And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
Adam knew it was about a future savour.
Adam was made rightous again by faith just as Abraham and we are.Yes, I believe Adam repented believed God’s promise of a future savior.
Adam does not just represent us as sinners, but also as forgiven sinners.
I believe when Jesus brought the Old Testament saints from Abraham’s Bosom into Paradise, Adam and Eve were among them – and Able as well. (Eph 4:8,9)

Gen 5:3And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters in verse 4 after his image.
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent.
The lineage of Cain is unrighteous, not in the image of his father, Adam.
the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brought Noah & he was righteous.

Notice: It does not even say that Cain was "after his image". Adam was not yet restored, because he had to leave the garden. Also if he had been totally restored, we would not be sinners in need of being saved.

Quite bluntly, I think Cain didn’t matter, because his lineage would not lead to the savior and it would pass away in the flood
– as you quoted in 2 Peter 3:6 (which I snipped J )
‘The new “enemies” being the descendants of Esau.

<snip>

Verse 7 tells of the time from Noah and the flood to the time that He wrote the Epistle, We can see this by the words "which are now". There has been over four thousand years from creation to then, in other words, he is writing from with in the fifth day. At this present time, there has been about two thousand years from the time that Peter wrote his Epistle until now.

When we count the days from Adam to Noah, there have been two thousand years, or two days.

When we count the days from Noah to the time when Jesus came into the World for His Earthly Ministry there have been two more thousand years, or two more days.

Finally, from the time of Jesus in His Earthly Ministry until now would be two thousand more years or two days. All in all this adds to 6 days.Yes! I see exactly what you are saying and I quite agree!
It make more sense now – the foretelling of Jesus.
However, it also says that they are male and female, so I think the inference is that He is the first born into the resurrection, and that we male and female will follow Him into resurrection.

Awesome!
THANK YOU!

Nevertheless, I am trying to do here is validate the fourth day of the creation account of the sun and moon as being good examples for the sun representing Jesus and the Moon representing His Church.
Now let's look at the creation account for this analogy.
Gen 1:14-19 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: :15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.: 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also" : 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. : 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. : 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

The fourth day according to Peter or in the four thousandth year from the beginning of creation is also the time that Jesus came to Earth in the flesh and started His Church. When the Father received Jesus to His right hand, He then gave us the duty of working the works of the Father who sent Jesus.Let me interrupt you, because God is so amazing.
I started another thread recently Any ideas about this verse?In Bible Chat and this really fits in with that – “the darkness when no man can work”.

No, because then, Adam would not have been created in the image and likeness of GOD, but would have been put or turned into the image and likeness of GOD the next day. .
I think you are making this distinction;
In Gen 1:26 - God “made” man [sort of re-created man (v26)]
In Gen 2:7 – God formed Adam of the dust – the physical creation.

Fascinating isn’t it?
Thank you, Diolectic J

Blessings and more insight to you,
Richard

Lamplighter
Nov 10th 2008, 09:02 PM
KJV Bible Genesis 1:26- "And God said, let us make man('adam) in our image(tselem), after our likeness(demuwth)

Here is the Hebrew.

'adam (אדם)- man, mankind, human being, first man, Adam.


tselem צלם) )
1) image
a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
b) image, likeness (of resemblance)
c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)


demuwth (דמות)- likeness, similitude, like as.


KJV Bible Genesis 2:7- "And the Lord God formed man('adam) of the dust of the ground."

Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 1:26 are both Adam. The same Hebrew word is used in both verses ('adam).

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 12:26 AM
KJV Bible Genesis 1:26- "And God said, let us make man('adam) in our image(tselem), after our likeness(demuwth)

Here is the Hebrew.

'adam (אדם)- man, mankind, human being, first man, Adam.


tselem צלם) )
1) image
a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
b) image, likeness (of resemblance)
c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)


demuwth (דמות)- likeness, similitude, like as.


KJV Bible Genesis 2:7- "And the Lord God formed man('adam) of the dust of the ground."

Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 1:26 are both Adam. The same Hebrew word is used in both verses ('adam).Thank you Lamplighter! :)

You know, I've been meaning all day to look up the part about the first and last Adam, but I've been busy writing and really haven't gotten any "work" done either.

And so now I have - and look what I've found:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Corinthians 15:45-53

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 03:01 AM
Gen 5:3And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters in verse 4 after his image.
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent.
The lineage of Cain is unrighteous, not in the image of his father, Adam.
the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brought Noah & he was righteous.

Notice: It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".
Adam was not yet restored, because he had to leave the garden. Also if he had been totally restored, we would not be sinners in need of being saved.Adam only had to leave the garden so he would not take of the Tree of Life.

Adam would have died even if he never sinned, without eating of the Tree of Life, he needed to eat of the Tree of Life in order to life forever in his flesh.
The reason is that he was made flesh whish is temporal.
Flesh was never suposed to life forever with out help from the Tree of Life.
Here is how this should be understood.
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Jesus says that the body of flesh which He has in His Earthly ministery is "made with hands", unglorified flesh.
He tells us that he will recieve a body not "made with hands", glorified flesh.
2Corinth 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
This building is flesh.
Things which are made of flesh are temporal, never meant to last forever.
Therefore Adam would have died with out sinning if he never ate from the Tree of Life.



No, because then, Adam would not have been created in the image and likeness of GOD, but would have been put or turned into the image and likeness of GOD.I think you are making this distinction;
In Gen 1:26 - God “made” man [sort of re-created man (v26)]
In Gen 2:7 – God formed Adam of the dust – the physical creation.God formed Adam from the dust as He made or appointed that dust to be in the image and likeness of GOD which was done all at once at the same time.

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 03:43 AM
Adam only had to leave the garden so he would not take of the Tree of Life.

Adam would have died even if he never sinned, without eating of the Tree of Life, he needed to eat of the Tree of Life in order to life forever in his flesh.
The reason is that he was made flesh whish is temporal.
Flesh was never suposed to life forever with out help from the Tree of Life.
Here is how this should be understood.
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Jesus says that the body of flesh which He has in His Earthly ministery is "made with hands", unglorified flesh.
He tells us that he will recieve a body not "made with hands", glorified flesh.
2Corinth 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
This building is flesh.
Things which are made of flesh are temporal, never meant to last forever.
Therefore Adam would have died with out sinning if he never ate from the Tree of Life.

God formed Adam from the dust as He made or appointed that dust to be in the image and likeness of GOD which was done all at once at the same time.
Yes!
That was the reason Adam had to leave.
Had he been fully restored to a right relationship with God, he could have remained in the garden and we might never have needed a Savior.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,
lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Gen 3:22-24

So if I read you correctly, the “death” spoken of was that he would not be able to eat of the tree of life.
Without having eaten of it, he would have died a “natural” death. :yes:

I’ve always wondered why Adam had not eaten of it before then, but I suppose God was more than aware of the timing of how things would work out.
It would have really changed things, if Adam had eaten that fruit. :hmm:

I’m unsure of your last statement. God created Adam in the image and likeness... ? OR
God’s ‘plan’ and purpose for man’s creation and redemption was already accomplished - as in this? :

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Peter 1:18-20

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 04:40 AM
Adam only had to leave the garden so he would not take of the Tree of Life....Yes!
That was the reason Adam had to leave.
Had he been fully restored to a right relationship with God, he could have remained in the garden and we might never have needed a Savior.No, even though Adam had been fully restored, he still must have been kept from the Tree of Life.



And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,
lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Gen 3:22-24
Gen 3:22 Behold, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,
:23 the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

The banishment is a mercy, in that God does not want man to live forever knowing good and evil.
That banishment from the Garden is not because Adam had not been fully restored to a right relationship with God, but because he knew good and evil.



So if I read you correctly, the “death” spoken of was that he would not be able to eat of the tree of life.
Without having eaten of it, he would have died a “natural” death. :yes:Yep.


I’ve always wondered why Adam had not eaten of it before then, but I suppose God was more than aware of the timing of how things would work out.
It would have really changed things, if Adam had eaten that fruit. :hmm:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The "right to eat from the tree" is from doing His commandments, Adam had not yet been tested and approved. Or not yet approved if he had been being tested already.

Those who eat from the Tree of Life have been approved and now have the "right".


I’m unsure of your last statement. God created Adam in the image and likeness... ?
OR
God’s ‘plan’ and purpose for man’s creation and redemption was already accomplished - as in this? :Sorry, what is the "this" you mentioned?

Yes, God created Adam in the image of them and after their likeness (Gen 1:26)

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 05:06 AM
No, even though Adam had been fully restored, he still must have been kept from the Tree of Life.Then he would not have need to believe in a promised Savior.


Gen 3:22 Behold, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,
:23 the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

The banishment is a mercy, in that God does not want man to live forever knowing good and evil.
That banishment from the Garden is not because Adam had not been fully restored to a right relationship with God, but because he knew good and evil.
While I may disagree about the restoration, I agree about the reason for Adam's having to leave.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The "right to eat from the tree" is from doing His commandments, Adam had not yet been tested and approved. Or not yet approved if he had been being tested already.

Those who eat from the Tree of Life have been approved and now have the "right".I don't disagree at all.
But I'd like to hear Lamplighter's take concerning the tree of life - if he'd care to comment. :)

Sorry, what is the "this" you mentioned?Sorry. the "this" was the quote which followed - saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
I was wondering is that was your interpretation - concerning "image" AND "likeness", but you've already seemed to answer (below).

Yes, God created Adam in the image of them and after their likeness (Gen 1:26)

divaD
Nov 11th 2008, 05:18 AM
Here are some things I think I understand:
And I approach Scripture literally, with an understanding that there is:
symbolism also involved, and parallels, types, and all sorts of evidence of the manifold (many folded)
wisdom and purposes of God.

If one adds up the generations from Adam to Jesus it comes to a round number of 4000
years.
Since this is 2008 AD, we can add a round number of 2000 years. ‘Totaling a round
number of 6000 years for creation.

In 2 Peter 3:8 - Peter is speaking about the end times or rather when the Lord returns.
He gives us a clue as to how to think about the timing of such things.
I am not trying to set a date or anything, but only to look at the overall meaning of God’s timetable.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like
a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Peter 3:8



Hi Richard. I fully understand what you're saying here. I too see it this way...I guess I have for quite some years. This is one of the main reasons that I truly believe we are living in the times of the end of this age. But I simply believe that Genesis 1 sets the pattern(6 days for the creation-1 day for rest). I also believe the 6 days of creation to be 24 hour periods, and not unspecified amounts of time. Why do I think that? Genesis 1:5,Genesis 1:8, Genesis 1:13, Genesis 1:19, Genesis 1:23, Genesis 1:31. IOW, all those evenings and mornings. These have to be referring to literal 24 hour days. And finally, as far as what you posted above, you won't get an argument out of me.




Now to answer you concerning the possibility of Adam being formed on the third day:

I will use the NASB for Gen 2:1-8, as it is a bit easier to understand the part about the
plants.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the
seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His
work which God had created and made.
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that
the LORD God made earth and heaven.
Genesis 2:1-4 NASB

Here God rested from His work and sanctified the seventh day.
What follows in the text must not be a continuation as God has already completed all His work.

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted,
for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the
ground.
But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life; and man became a living being.
The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man
whom He had formed.
Genesis 2:5-8 NASB

This is the account of Adam. It does not specify which day, but it cannot be the seventh day, and if we look at
the text, it says that there were no plants yet.
And neither was there a man to till the ground or otherwise tend to the plants.
The implication – to me – is that plants are for food and with the introduction of food, there would be people to
eat it and tend to it.
No, I’m not a vegetarian. J

Let’s look back at Genesis one and see when there plants first appeared.

Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the
dry land appear"; and it was so.
God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God
saw that it was good.
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on
the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees
bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
There was evening and there was morning, a third day.
Gen 1:9-13

So on the third day (Gen 1), plants appeared. But in Gen 2, is says that there were no plants yet when Adam
was created.

So there is a discrepancy, but I think the Bible is trustworthy - the living and active truth.



Once again, I see where you're going with this, and I can somewhat see how you come to those conclusions. Also, I can see with man being formed on day 3, that there are no contradiction to the order in which the animals were formed. Even so, there is still no mention of man until day 6.

I noticed that you used Genesis ch 1 to determine the timeline of the plants, etc. Undoubtedly they were created on day 3. But aren't you also supposed to use Genesis ch 1 to determine when man was created? Once again, Genesis ch 1 makes no mention of man on the 3rd day, but it does mention man on the 6th day.

But let's look at it this way for a moment. Genesis ch 2 tells us that God formed man out of the dust of the ground. Genesis ch 1 tells us God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In order to understand this better, we can go back to Genesis 1:1 as an example of things that were created before they were formed.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Obviously this is the first thing God did. He created the heaven and the earth out of nothing.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here we see the earth was without form and empty. So what does God then do? He starts forming what He previously created out of nothing. Basically He was getting everything ready for His prized possession that He would later be creating, which would be mankind. Then He would be able to fill the empty void with lifeforms of plants, animals, humans. This also is what Isaiah 45:18 is telling us. Unfortunately many wrongly use this verse to support a gap between Genesis 1:1-2.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here, in order for God to form Adam out of the dust of the ground, He had to create him first, since we know from Genesis ch 1 that God created man. When did He create him? On day 6. It would be similar to God forming the earth. In order for God to form the earth, He had to create it first. He didn't form
the earth then create it. It was the other way around. Neither could God form the man before he was created. The man had to be created first, then formed.

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 08:13 AM
Hi Richard. I fully understand what you're saying here. I too see it this way...I guess I have for quite some years. This is one of the main reasons that I truly believe we are living in the times of the end of this age. But I simply believe that Genesis 1 sets the pattern(6 days for the creation-1 day for rest). I also believe the 6 days of creation to be 24 hour periods, and not unspecified amounts of time. Why do I think that? Genesis 1:5,Genesis 1:8, Genesis 1:13, Genesis 1:19, Genesis 1:23, Genesis 1:31. IOW, all those evenings and mornings. These have to be referring to literal 24 hour days. And finally, as far as what you posted above, you won't get an argument out of me.







Once again, I see where you're going with this, and I can somewhat see how you come to those conclusions. Also, I can see with man being formed on day 3, that there are no contradiction to the order in which the animals were formed. Even so, there is still no mention of man until day 6.

I noticed that you used Genesis ch 1 to determine the timeline of the plants, etc. Undoubtedly they were created on day 3. But aren't you also supposed to use Genesis ch 1 to determine when man was created? Once again, Genesis ch 1 makes no mention of man on the 3rd day, but it does mention man on the 6th day.

But let's look at it this way for a moment. Genesis ch 2 tells us that God formed man out of the dust of the ground. Genesis ch 1 tells us God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In order to understand this better, we can go back to Genesis 1:1 as an example of things that were created before they were formed.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Obviously this is the first thing God did. He created the heaven and the earth out of nothing.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here we see the earth was without form and empty. So what does God then do? He starts forming what He previously created out of nothing. Basically He was getting everything ready for His prized possession that He would later be creating, which would be mankind. Then He would be able to fill the empty void with lifeforms of plants, animals, humans. This also is what Isaiah 45:18 is telling us. Unfortunately many wrongly use this verse to support a gap between Genesis 1:1-2.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here, in order for God to form Adam out of the dust of the ground, He had to create him first, since we know from Genesis ch 1 that God created man. When did He create him? On day 6. It would be similar to God forming the earth. In order for God to form the earth, He had to create it first. He didn't form
the earth then create it. It was the other way around. Neither could God form the man before he was created. The man had to be created first, then formed.Hi devaD,
I'm glad you took the time to read my exploration of the topic. To me, it is another layer of how God says the same thing in many ways and how He says many things with a single sentence.

I have no problem with a seven day creation and in fact, that is what Genesis one is about - the creation of Creation in... well actually, six days. ;)

As for the Gap - I've seen a thread on it - and did a bit of googling to find out what it was.
What was my conclusion? :BNonsense! Sheer nonsense.

I see what yer saying about creating and then forming. :yes:
'Just as a potter "throws" the clay onto the wheel, and then begins shaping it.
Although, as I understand it God created the dust (actually the earth - since the dust was from the earth) and then formed the man from the dust.

And of course, then He breathed life into the formed man to give him life. :pp

Richard

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 05:50 PM
No, even though Adam had been fully restored, he still must have been kept from the Tree of Life.Then he would not have need to believe in a promised Savior.
Yes, he would, that is the reason he was fully restored.
Adam believed God in the hope of a saviour from this verse: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
Knowing that "seed" comes from the man, the woman is known to be Israel and her seed to be the saviour which will bruise the "serpents" head.
This hope was given a way to grasp on to when God made coats of skin showing them to make sacrifice and to sacrifice correctly.

We know tha Adam taught is children this as we see Cain & Able sacrificing what they deem pleasing to God.
See Gen 4:4-5 & Hebrews 11:4

Therefore, if Able was said to be was righteous by his "better sacrifice", then we must know that Adam was also by his faith. In hope of a saviour.


Gen 3:22 Behold, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,


:23 the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
The banishment is a mercy, in that God does not want man to live forever knowing good and evil.

That banishment from the Garden is not because Adam had not been fully restored to a right relationship with God, but because he knew good and evil.While I may disagree about the restoration, I agree about the reason for Adam's having to leave.
Please answer these questions so that I may know why you think that Adam was not "fully restored"

1: Why wasn't fully restored?
2: To what degree was Adam not fully restored?

If Adam is not fully restored, then that means we ourselve with our faith are not fully restored.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 11th 2008, 06:20 PM
Hi fellow,


Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.Adam could have been fully restored and for the promise was for "her seed" Adam and Even once repented and cleansed of the past sins, would wait for the fulfilling of the word of God.

Then when Abel was born Adam and Eve were hoping that this would be the one who would bruise the serpents head.

I guess we are not fully restored because:

But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Proverbs 4:18.

So the time is yet in the future with the pouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied and called "the later rain". when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19.

ѕєє уσυ ℓαтєя

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 06:28 PM
...
Therefore, if Able was said to be was righteous by his "better sacrifice", then we must know that Adam was also by his faith. In hope of a saviour.

Please answer these questions so that I may know why you think that Adam was not "fully restored"

1: Why wasn't fully restored?
2: To what degree was Adam not fully restored?

If Adam is not fully restored, then that means we ourselve with our faith are not fully restored.Yes. Able was "righteous" because his acceptable sacrifice.
(A sacrifice also from the heart)
Adam and Eve and Able were restored and yet when they died, they did not go to Paradise - the paradise Jesus said He was going to prepare.

Come to think of it...
They could not have gone to Abraham's Bosom, because Abraham was not yet.
Curious - but somewhat off topic.

I can promise to give you a car, and you can believe that I will.
But until, you get the keys and sit behind the wheel, you're not going anywhere.

Full restoration occured when Jesus said, "It is finished" - making the promise a reality.
"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Acts 3:18-21

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 06:35 PM
Gee. My reply reads a bit harsh (at least to me).
'Not the intent, though. :)

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 06:48 PM
Hi fellow,

Adam could have been fully restored and for the promise was for "her seed" Adam and Even once repented and cleansed of the past sins, would wait for the fulfilling of the word of God.

Then when Abel was born Adam and Eve were hoping that this would be the one who would bruise the serpents head.

I guess we are not fully restored because:

But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Proverbs 4:18.

So the time is yet in the future with the pouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied and called "the later rain". when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19.

ѕєє уσυ ℓαтєяWe are restored now, Forerunner.
He has made the fulfilment available so that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
After the resurrection, we will also be with Him on the New Earth and in the New Jerusalam.
Well... OK there's a 1000 years in there too. LOL

Richard

So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Corinthians 15:45-50

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:11

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 06:53 PM
Yes, he would, that is the reason he was fully restored.
Adam believed God in the hope of a saviour from this verse: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
Knowing that "seed" comes from the man, the woman is known to be Israel and her seed to be the saviour which will bruise the "serpents" head.
This hope was given a way to grasp on to when God made coats of skin showing them to make sacrifice and to sacrifice correctly.

We know tha Adam taught is children this as we see Cain & Able sacrificing what they deem pleasing to God.
See Gen 4:4-5 & Hebrews 11:4

Therefore, if Able was said to be was righteous by his "better sacrifice", then we must know that Adam was also by his faith. In hope of a saviour.

Please answer these questions so that I may know why you think that Adam was not "fully restored"

1: Why wasn't fully restored?
2: To what degree was Adam not fully restored?

If Adam is not fully restored, then that means we ourselve with our faith are not fully restored.
Gen. 3:15 is a very interesting verse. I have discussed it many times, with mixed reviews.

This was the curse upon the serpent. And the curse happened immediately. As did the curse upon the woman and the curse upon the man.

Enmity means hatred. Thus a hatred between the serpent and the woman. And between thy seed and her seed. < Again , enmity = hatred.
This is true, the woman does not have seed of herself. A male offspring is "her seed". So the word "seed" is figurative. So is the word "seed" of the serpent , figurative. Because the serpent does not have seed of itself either. This is why in verse 15 the serpents seed does not bruise his heel - meaning man. But "you" or in the KJV - "thou" shalt bruise his heel "

The very first man (men) was Cain and Able = seed of the woman, as they were twins. Cain murdered Able. Then later Seth was born. It was Seth's lineage that came the birth of Jesus Christ. But "prior" to that, there were other men of God through this line of Seth. The first is Noah.

Now, God told the serpent , that he would be cursed above all the cattle and above every beast of the field. And he would eat dust all the days of his life. This is describing a "worm" to the letter. They eat dust, and is below all of the mentioned above. Also, a worm is male and female. So when God told Noah to take everything with breath life in it, and a worm has breath life, as it breaths through pores in its skin. And put them on the ark by two's, Key word here , watch closely - "by two, male and its,female". So Noah didn't bring the "worm" on the ark. Because the worm, the devil, can not be saved. A worm can go deep into the earth to avoid the water from drowing it.

So, the first record of this curse upon the serpent, is this record of Noah and the ark. Noah represents the "seed of the woman". Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. In the latter epistle of Peter, it tells us, that eight souls were saved by water. Notice what it does not say, it does not say, eight souls were saved by the ark. But by water.. Here the "water" represetns the hatred between the serpent and the woman. This water is like a woman giving birth. The earth is a woman , spiritually speaking. Both the water from above and the water from below flooded the earth.

God Bless - M M

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 07:46 PM
Therefore, if Able was said to be was righteous by his "better sacrifice", then we must know that Adam was also by his faith. In hope of a saviour.

Please answer these questions so that I may know why you think that Adam was not "fully restored"

1: Why wasn't fully restored?
2: To what degree was Adam not fully restored?

If Adam is not fully restored, then that means we ourselve with our faith are not fully restored.Yes. Able was "righteous" because his acceptable sacrifice.
(A sacrifice also from the heart)
Adam and Eve and Able were restored and yet when they died, they did not go to Paradise - the paradise Jesus said He was going to prepare.

Come to think of it...
They could not have gone to Abraham's Bosom, because Abraham was not yet.
Curious - but somewhat off topic.
There is no where in the Scriptures that say Adam & Eve did not go to Paradise.
All you are doing is suposing that He didn't because of the terms which are used.
No one can proove that "Abraham's bosom" is not Paradise.
Nor can they proove that "Abraham's bosom" or Paradise is not heaven.

One must proove that what Paul says is not true for all time.
2Corinth 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


I can promise to give you a car, and you can believe that I will.
But until, you get the keys and sit behind the wheel, you're not going anywher.[/QUOTE]Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were.
In God's economy, I would already have the car.

[QUOTE]Full restoration occured when Jesus said, "It is finished" - making the promise a reality.The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.(Rev 13:8)
As I said before, in God's economy, God calls those things which are not as though they were.(Rom 4:17)
However, that wich is "finished" is:
(1) Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
(a) For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).
(2) Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin (Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
(a) purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

Thanx for your responces, much appreciated.

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 08:07 PM
Gen. 3:15 is a very interesting verse. I have discussed it many times, with mixed reviews.

This was the curse upon the serpent. And the curse happened immediately. As did the curse upon the woman and the curse upon the man.

Enmity means hatred. Thus a hatred between the serpent and the woman. And between thy seed and her seed. < Again , enmity = hatred.
This is true, the woman does not have seed of herself. A male offspring is "her seed". So the word "seed" is figurative. So is the word "seed" of the serpent , figurative. Because the serpent does not have seed of itself either. This is why in verse 15 the serpents seed does not bruise his heel - meaning man. But "you" or in the KJV - "thou" shalt bruise his heel "

The very first man (men) was Cain and Able = seed of the woman, as they were twins. Cain murdered Able. Then later Seth was born. It was Seth's lineage that came the birth of Jesus Christ. But "prior" to that, there were other men of God through this line of Seth. The first is Noah.

Now, God told the serpent , that he would be cursed above all the cattle and above every beast of the field. And he would eat dust all the days of his life. This is describing a "worm" to the letter. They eat dust, and is below all of the mentioned above. Also, a worm is male and female. So when God told Noah to take everything with breath life in it, and a worm has breath life, as it breaths through pores in its skin. And put them on the ark by two's, Key word here , watch closely - "by two, male and its,female". So Noah didn't bring the "worm" on the ark. Because the worm, the devil, can not be saved. A worm can go deep into the earth to avoid the water from drowing it.

So, the first record of this curse upon the serpent, is this record of Noah and the ark. Noah represents the "seed of the woman". Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. In the latter epistle of Peter, it tells us, that eight souls were saved by water. Notice what it does not say, it does not say, eight souls were saved by the ark. But by water.. Here the "water" represetns the hatred between the serpent and the woman. This water is like a woman giving birth. The earth is a woman , spiritually speaking. Both the water from above and the water from below flooded the earth.

God Bless - M MInteresting.
However, The woman would most dirsctly represeant Israel and her seed is Christ.
Rev 12:5 And she (Israel) brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Gal 3:16 But the promises were spoken to Abraham (the father of Israel) and to his ( and Israel's) Seed, it does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 08:18 PM
Interesting.
However, The woman would most dirsctly represeant Israel and her seed is Christ.
Rev 12:5 And she (Israel) brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Gal 3:16 But the promises were spoken to Abraham (the father of Israel) and to his ( and Israel's) Seed, it does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.


Hi

Oh yes, I totally agree with you !

Interestingly, we get more, when we see more. That is why I tried to provide as much information as possible , before jumping forward within the scriptures.

I look at it as one baby step at a time. Making sure we get our balance before we think we can "run" with the Word.

God Bless - Love IN Christ

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 09:12 PM
There is no where in the Scriptures that say Adam & Eve did not go to Paradise.
All you are doing is suposing that He didn't because of the terms which are used.
No one can proove that "Abraham's bosom" is not Paradise.
Nor can they proove that "Abraham's bosom" or Paradise is not heaven.

One must proove that what Paul says is not true for all time.
2Corinth 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


I can promise to give you a car, and you can believe that I will.
But until, you get the keys and sit behind the wheel, you're not going anywher.Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were.
In God's economy, I would already have the car.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.(Rev 13:8)
As I said before, in God's economy, God calls those things which are not as though they were.(Rom 4:17)
However, that wich is "finished" is:
(1) Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
(a) For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18,Galatians 5:1).
(2) Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin (Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
(a) purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

Thanx for your responces, much appreciated.
Hi Diolectic,
I don't pretend to be an expert on Abraham's Bosom - or even Paradise for that matter.

In 2 Corinthians there is a “therefore”, so I need to go back and see what it’s there for. J

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Corinthians 5:4-6

‘Looks to me like Paul is saying:
Because we have the Holy Spirit, we can be confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I don't think Adam was restored to a point where he had the Holy Spirit.
Actually, that would have been an "upgrade".

I agree with all you wrote at the bottom.
(2) and (2-a) looks like restoration to me. J
The redemption – our forgiveness – our being restored so we can now enter into the presence of the holy God.

Richard

Teke
Nov 11th 2008, 10:40 PM
Hi Richard. :)

I believe we are to understand this from the perspective of the Trinity. In Genesis 1:26-30, we are reading of the Trinity which made man. The Father is speaking to God the Son, and He uses personal pronouns "Us" and "Our". These pronouns indicate three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as noted in Genesis 1:1-3.

The word "image" is in the singular, and shows the three distinct Persons of the Trinity are one in nature and undivided. It does not say "our images". Therefore, the Holy Trinity is one undivided nature in three distinct Persons.

Man is not one in nature with the Holy Trinity. But he was made in the image and likeness of the Trinity, and he was made male and female. Therefore, the dignity of each man and each woman is this image and likeness, meaning in relation to our created nature.

In Genesis 5:3, Seth was begotten from Adam and Eve. This threefold relationship illustrates, to a certain extent, the Holy Trinity. Adam had no human father. He was begotten by no one. Thus he was "unbegotten". Seth was begotten from Adam. Eve was neither unbegotten nor begotten. Instead she "proceeded" from Adam (2:21). Therefore, Eve and Seth were related to unbegotten Adam, but each in a unique manner-Eve proceeded from Adam, but Seth was begotten from him. Each person had his or her own distinct and unique properties-unbegotten, begotten, and proceeding-but all three possessed the same human nature. :)

Diolectic
Nov 11th 2008, 10:40 PM
Hi Diolectic,Hello :wave:

In 2 Corinthians there is a “therefore”, so I need to go back and see what it’s there for. JThats always my motto, and a good rule to go by.



For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Corinthians 5:4-6

‘Looks to me like Paul is saying:
Because we have the Holy Spirit, we can be confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I don't think Adam was restored to a point where he had the Holy Spirit.
Actually, that would have been an "upgrade".Understand what The Holy Spirit is for, what's the purpose of having Him?
The Holy Spirit is our seal of redemption(Eph 1:14, Eph 4:30)
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Corinth 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Corint 5:5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

There was them in the Old Testement who did have the Holy Spirit as the Kings, Preaists and Prophets, not to forget Eldad, and Medad whom the Spirit rested on who were prophesying in the camp along with the other seventy
when Moses said, "Are you jealous for my sake? Oh that all Jehovah's people were prophets, that Jehovah would put His Spirit on them!"(Numbers 11:25-29)


Therefore, according to whant you say, I would say that when these whom I mentioned were absent from the body, they present with the Lord.
Furthermore, we know that they who have faith are the Lord's people, and we wouldn't need to know that they had the Holy spirit as a seal of redemption or the earnest of the Spirit.


In conclusion to what you sayed. all who had or haf faith in God being absent from the body would definatly be present with the Lord.


Thanx

Richard H
Nov 12th 2008, 12:12 AM
Hello :wave:
Thats always my motto, and a good rule to go by.

Understand what The Holy Spirit is for, what's the purpose of having Him?
The Holy Spirit is our seal of redemption(Eph 1:14, Eph 4:30)
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Corinth 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Corint 5:5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

There was them in the Old Testement who did have the Holy Spirit as the Kings, Preaists and Prophets, not to forget Eldad, and Medad whom the Spirit rested on who were prophesying in the camp along with the other seventy
when Moses said, "Are you jealous for my sake? Oh that all Jehovah's people were prophets, that Jehovah would put His Spirit on them!"(Numbers 11:25-29)


Therefore, according to whant you say, I would say that when these whom I mentioned were absent from the body, they present with the Lord.
Furthermore, we know that they who have faith are the Lord's people, and we wouldn't need to know that they had the Holy spirit as a seal of redemption or the earnest of the Spirit.


In conclusion to what you sayed. all who had or haf faith in God being absent from the body would definatly be present with the Lord.


Thanx
They are present with the Lord now that Jesus had completed His earthly task for that time.
I think this verse is about His bringing those in Abraham's Bosom in Sheol into Paradise.

Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?
Eph 4:8,9 ESV

Wherever Adam was - he is now with the Lord.
Not immediately after he died outside of Eden, but when Jesus opened the way. He was the way.

So now Moses and Abraham and all the Old Testiment saints are with the Lord in paradise.
He preached the good news to them and because of their previous faith in the promise, they believed Him.

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Luke 4:18,19

Richard :)

Diolectic
Nov 12th 2008, 01:20 AM
They are present with the Lord now that Jesus had completed His earthly task for that time.
I think this verse is about His bringing those in Abraham's Bosom in Sheol into Paradise.Where does it say that they weren't with the Lord in "Abraham's Bosom"


Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?
Eph 4:8,9 ESVThe lower parts of the earth would be in His tomb.

IamBill
Nov 12th 2008, 06:03 PM
:) On topic...
Richard, I should have mentioned that I am familiar to this Gen1 being dual "creation/prophecy" ...and has merit IMO.

One thing I have never seen though is an alignment/significance of each day(1000 yrs), (7th being obvious to the topic) Diolectic made in impressive alignment IMO, as to the forth day.

But what about the other days ? 'All' have to be included and at least 'somewhat plausible' to inspire study on it.

Diolectic
Nov 12th 2008, 06:36 PM
:) On topic...
Richard, I should have mentioned that I am familiar to this Gen1 being dual "creation/prophecy" ...and has merit IMO.

One thing I have never seen though is an alignment/significance of each day(1000 yrs), (7th being obvious to the topic) Diolectic made in impressive alignment IMO, as to the forth day.The 7th day of rest would be the 7,000th year, which is the millennium


But what about the other days ? 'All' have to be included and at least 'somewhat plausible' to inspire study on it.I haven't seen any relations to the other days, but you got me thinking & Ill look in to it.

Emanate
Nov 12th 2008, 07:10 PM
The Father is speaking to God the Son, and He uses personal pronouns "Us" and "Our". These pronouns indicate three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as noted in Genesis 1:1-3.


I was never aware that "us" or "our" meant three. So it is bad grammar to say "the four of us" since us means three?

IamBill
Nov 12th 2008, 07:57 PM
The 7th day of rest would be the 7,000th year, which is the millennium

I haven't seen any relations to the other days, but you got me thinking & Ill look in to it.

:)
Yeah, I mean, the whole Idea cannot slip past what is implied by itself - that the first 5 (days/1000's) HAVE been fulfilled.
If they Have indeed, they should be visible (in the literal sense).

That would be awesome if you could align #'s 2, 3 and 5 like you did on #4
(#1 i would guess would explain itself, #6 is, and #7 to come)

Teke
Nov 12th 2008, 09:42 PM
I was never aware that "us" or "our" meant three. So it is bad grammar to say "the four of us" since us means three?

I said, "as noted in Genesis 1:1-3". In those three verses you will read of the three. ie. God the Father, God the Spirit, and God 'said' (spoke the Word) let there be 'light' (as John says, the Logos, meaning the Son who is the Word and Light), which is why in the NT we read, by Him where all things created etc etc.

Example for the above latter explanation in reference to the Son, Hbr 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
To be clear it doesn't say that creation was a matter of evolution, which is the creation of things which are already created.