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SeekingWisdom
Oct 5th 2008, 05:33 PM
With all this talk of persecution, tribulation, Mark of the Beast, and beheading, where does fleeing fit in?

I somewhat remember studying this before, but my memory is fuzzy and I don't have any notes.

All I have in my mind now is Matthew 24:15-25, Mark 13:14-20, Luke 20-24.
How does this all fit into the end times because I was taught one thing:


Oh Christians will be saved from the tribulation because they'll be hiding in the one place the antichrist can't find them so be prepared to go to the wilderness.But now that I look at it, I see it differently.

How does this fit into the grand scheme of things from your point of view?

paradiseinn
Oct 5th 2008, 10:34 PM
hello
my pov would be this=
jesus wants us to flee.
in the wilderness we can hide, and GOD will feed us, we can completly live off the land! GOD will bless us and i'm sure we will meet other followers somewhere thru our journey. we will have fellowship with our brothers and sisters. let this world have their garbage system... i will be praising GOD while i'm eating worms and drinking from puddles!:pp
hope this can help for an answer
GOD bless
this world needs an enema!;)
come on Jesus!!!:pp

third hero
Oct 6th 2008, 04:35 AM
Jesus is telling the disciples of the signs before His return. One of them is the "Abomination that causes desolation", as Jesus said, "as written in Daniel", (invoking Daniel 9:27). When that sign is seen, then all in Judea must flee. As far as the fleeing is concerned, it is limited to the people who are in Judah when that sign is seen.

However, the abomination that causes desolation is a sign that is to show Israel that her time of iniquity is up. During this time, Israel will be unable to continue in the sins of their forefathers, which include the continual rejection of Lord Jesus. According to some OT scriptures (Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 38-39), God will cause many nations to attack Israel, and those who escaped will be saved, (Zechariah 12:10-14).

How is this in relation to the believer? Revelation 12:17 answers that question. Mainly, once Israel is attacked, the Dragon will go after the saints next. The Abomination that causes Desolation is the trigger of the Great Tribulation. What will happen in Jerusalem will not stay in Jerusalem, for the rest of us will have it done to us shortly thereafter.

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 09:06 AM
With all this talk of persecution, tribulation, Mark of the Beast, and beheading, where does fleeing fit in?

I somewhat remember studying this before, but my memory is fuzzy and I don't have any notes.

All I have in my mind now is Matthew 24:15-25, Mark 13:14-20, Luke 20-24.
How does this all fit into the end times because I was taught one thing:
But now that I look at it, I see it differently.

How does this fit into the grand scheme of things from your point of view?

Until that which is spoken of by Daniel is seen there will be no need to flee from him.

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 7th 2008, 01:07 PM
but he told his disciples that.... he is telling Christians especially Christian Jews that when THEY SEE it flee... meaning they will see the antichrist defile the temple with their own eyes and it will be a clear sign that he is coming after the Jewish people... the Antichrist has one purpose in mind... the total extermination of the Jewish people... if the Church isn't actively involved with preserving Israel, there really is no reason why the Antichrist will deal with you...

for those who will say otherwise... is Satan using terrorists to bomb your church or Jerusalem? Is he bombing growing mega churches?

Firstfruits
Oct 7th 2008, 01:17 PM
but he told his disciples that.... he is telling Christians especially Christian Jews that when THEY SEE it flee... meaning they will see the antichrist defile the temple with their own eyes and it will be a clear sign that he is coming after the Jewish people... the Antichrist has one purpose in mind... the total extermination of the Jewish people... if the Church isn't actively involved with preserving Israel, there really is no reason why the Antichrist will deal with you...

for those who will say otherwise... is Satan using terrorists to bomb your church or Jerusalem? Is he bombing growing mega churches?

What happens when they see that spoken of by Daniel will affect all, wether Jew or Gentile. There will only be two groups at that time with regards to the following.

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So it will not be just Jews that will flee.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 7th 2008, 07:38 PM
What happens when they see that spoken of by Daniel will affect all, wether Jew or Gentile. There will only be two groups at that time with regards to the following.

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So it will not be just Jews that will flee.

Firstfruits

the Jews will flee... to us... and we will make our stand with them even though to do so will absolutely result in the deaths of many Christians... the righteous will be fleeing from the Antichrist... but the Jews will seek refuge in the church during the tribulation

Richard H
Oct 7th 2008, 07:52 PM
Fleeing (Assuming one is not pre-trib)
As you know, Jesus spoke of a time when His advice for those in Judea (The country of Israel), would be to flee when they see the Abomination.

Some believe that the AC will allow the two witnesses to carry on for 42 months during the 2nd half, but that doesn’t make sense.
I think they will witness during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, before the AC reveals himself with the A of D.
His first two orders of business: kill the witnesses and set himself as “God”.

Revelation tells us:
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:11-13

So there will be a great earthquake in Jerusalem. ‘A good reason to get out of town.

Does that mean that we also are to flee? If you are in Israel at that time, it would be a good idea.
If you are not in Israel what will you flee from? and to where will you flee?

As Christians, we know persecution will come after the A of D.
First will come economic persecution, as you’ll not be able to work, or buy, or sell.
Some Christians (everywhere) will flee into the wilderness, but you’d better know how to survive.

If you see yourself in a war zone or an earthquake zone it’s smart to flee.
There’s no glory for God, should we die like that.

If you perceive that some catastrophic disaster is looming, it may be smart to flee.
If one is destined for the sword rather than the mark, then God is glorified by that steadfastness.
If you see them coming for people, I’m not saying one should jump out shouting “here I am!”

We can expect that the AC will cause many to be killed.
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
Rev 14:13

These are the martyrs. (First speaking of the apostles)
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:4-6

I know that surviving until the seventh trump – the resurrection/rapture will be more than difficult.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:17 (Rev 10:7)

As for the woman who flees into the desert (Rev 12), this must be those in Judea.
Those who live in Israel – many of whom are unsaved Jews - the remnant of Judah, who as promised, will see their Messiah, Yeshua.

Many times Satan has sought to make it impossible for GOD to fulfill His promise.
He sought to destroy the woman and all of Israel. (The whole house of Israel – all the tribes)

When the child, Jesus was born, the dragon used Herod to try to kill Messiah before His time.
Now, we are grafted into the whole house of Israel, through the lion of the tribe of Judah (Jesus).
Satan has sought to destroy us ever since.

When the AC cannot get to this protected remnant, he will turn his focus to us.
Then our real persecution begins. (Rev 14:13)

So the question remains, can you survive major catastrophes and war until the seventh trump?
If the answer is yes, then flee.

As for me: my “luck” and meager skills offer no guarantee, and I want to see Jesus Christ actually ruling the world.

OK, this may all seem to be a real downer. L
But we have the blessing of possibly seeing this promise fulfilled. :)
Plus we know the One who wins in the end and we shall be with Him no matter what. :saint:
Life here is only temporary, but eternal life in Christ is forever. :pp

Richard

Romulus
Oct 9th 2008, 01:45 PM
Here are the scriptures:

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21

20"When you see [B]Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Jesus spoke this approximately in 30 A.D. and it was concerning the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. The tribulation that was to occur after the abomination was seen and the people were to flee, concerned Judea only. If the turmoil that was to occur was a worldwide event, why did Jesus only give the warning to Judea? Because it was a localized event.......in Jerusalem.

Jesus also stated the time period this was to occur:

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2021;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25850b)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

A Biblical generation is 40 years. There is absolutely nothing to suggest in the scriptures that anyone but the then living generation of Israel would witness the "end of the age" spoken in Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark etc. Jesus spoke this around 30 A.D. Now compare the scriptures in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. The Book of Matthew was written to a Jewish audience who knew what the term "abomination that causes desolation" meant. It was a reference to a historical event prophecied in Daniel. The Book of Luke was written to a Gentile audience who had no idea about the term "abomination" so luke interprets it to them as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

In December 66 A.D. the roman prince Titus surrounded Jerusalem to put down the rebellion that was occurring within it's walls. For no reason Titus and his military left the city. Those that heeded Christ's warning understood the sign and fled the city into the mountains, more specifically the mountains of Pella. This was the last time that anyone could escape the coming destruction. In February 67 A.D. Titus returned, surrounded the city and began the 42 month/3.5 year siege(tribulation) of Jerusalem. For 3.5 years the inhabitants of Jerusalem endured murder, starvation, cannibalism, and other horrors until Rome had enough and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple occurred August 31, 70 A.D. exactly a generation after Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Luke and Mark. The only ones that needed to flee were the believers in Judea in 66 A.D. and those that obeyed Christ's prophecy survived the tribulation against Jerusalem.

God Bless! :)

timmyb
Oct 9th 2008, 05:53 PM
uhhhhhh... i would have to say that is faulty at best.... Rome never imposed a mark that affected buying and selling, the judgements of God described in Revelation were not manifest... and Jerusalem is the prelude to Armageddon aka Christ coming back... the Tribulation has not happened yet and remember Rome was only one nation, and Zechariah says that he is going to gather the nations against Jerusalem before the end...

third hero
Oct 10th 2008, 05:21 AM
Sorry Batman. Robin's not buying it....:spin: