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Colossians 3:17
Oct 6th 2008, 12:44 AM
I see a lot of mentioning of Adultery (sex outside of marriage WHEN you're married) in there, but fornication (sex outside of marriage in general) is not in the OT as far as I can see.

It definitely is mentioned in the NT a number of places, but where is sex before marriage said to be wrong in the OT?

I'm sure it's there somewhere.

valleybldr
Oct 6th 2008, 12:53 AM
I see a lot of mentioning of Adultery (sex outside of marriage WHEN you're married) in there, but fornication (sex outside of marriage in general) is not in the OT as far as I can see.

It definitely is mentioned in the NT a number of places, but where is sex before marriage said to be wrong in the OT?

I'm sure it's there somewhere. It is not explicitedly stated but assumed and upheld by rabbinical teaching. todd

Colossians 3:17
Oct 6th 2008, 12:55 AM
It is not explicitedly stated but assumed and upheld by rabbinical teaching. todd

I wish it was made more clear, even though it is made very clear in the NT.

renthead188
Oct 6th 2008, 01:01 AM
The teaching is assumed throughout Scripture, though I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly stated as such.

As Christians we are to conduct ourselves with an eternal mindset. We are to focus on the good and the eternal rather than the poor and the temporary. Love is both good and eternal. God willing, I'll have a wife one day. I love her. I want to sleep with her. I don't want to sleep with anyone but my wife. This doesn't change because I might not have met her yet, not when I'm thinking eternally.

That's not Scripture, although most it is paraphrased from different verses. It is what God showed me about the subject, though.

Clay Blucher
Oct 6th 2008, 01:14 AM
Deut 22:23ff explains what happens with fornication.

-If the woman is unmarried but betrothed, and the "rape" is done in the city, then they both shall be killed, as she had the chance to call out. (vv. 23-24)
-If done in the field, and she claims rape, then he is killed, as she couldn't call for help, and so it is presumed rape. Again, the assumption is that she is betrothed. (vv. 25-27)
-If two people are found having sex outside marriage, they are forced to get married. (vv. 28-29)

This is just one instance of the discussion of fornication (at least in view of the woman who is not married), so where people are getting the notion that the OT does not talk about fornication is beyond me.

Colossians 3:17
Oct 6th 2008, 02:50 AM
Deut 22:23ff explains what happens with fornication.

-If the woman is unmarried but betrothed, and the "rape" is done in the city, then they both shall be killed, as she had the chance to call out. (vv. 23-24)
-If done in the field, and she claims rape, then he is killed, as she couldn't call for help, and so it is presumed rape. Again, the assumption is that she is betrothed. (vv. 25-27)
-If two people are found having sex outside marriage, they are forced to get married. (vv. 28-29)

This is just one instance of the discussion of fornication (at least in view of the woman who is not married), so where people are getting the notion that the OT does not talk about fornication is beyond me.

Well, the first two are talking about rape.

The 3rd one just says if you are caught having sex outside of marriage you have to get married. Doesn't even explicitly say it's sinful (even though we know it is).

Clydson
Oct 6th 2008, 03:34 AM
I see a lot of mentioning of Adultery (sex outside of marriage WHEN you're married) in there, but fornication (sex outside of marriage in general) is not in the OT as far as I can see.

It definitely is mentioned in the NT a number of places, but where is sex before marriage said to be wrong in the OT?

I'm sure it's there somewhere.
Jake: Joseph called sex before marriage, "...great wickedness, and sin against God" Gen 39:9.

renthead188
Oct 6th 2008, 04:46 AM
Jake: Joseph called sex before marriage, "...great wickedness, and sin against God" Gen 39:9.

This verse could also be understood to refer to commiting adultery with Potiphar's wife.

Either way, yes, sex is for married couples.


"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Gen 2:24

One, singular flesh. Not one flesh that is ripped apart and turned into one flesh again over and over until you find someone that you can live with, but a singular flesh made when a single man joins a single woman together to become one.

The love that exists between a man and a woman is a mirror and a type of the love that God has for His Church. In keeping with this teaching that is clearly demonstrated throughout Scripture, the Text often refers to the worship of other gods as Spiritual Adultery. God hates this, whether we have done it before or after we've come into a relationship with Him. In a similar fashion sleeping with someone who is not your wife is physical adultery. God hates this, whether we have done it before or after we've come into a relationship with her.



"Drink water from your own cistern, and running water from your own well. Should your fountains be dispersed abroad, Streams of water in the streets? Let them be only your own, And not for strnagers with you. Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice with the wife of your youth. As a loving deer and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; And always be enraptured with her love. For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman, And be embraced in the arms of a seductress?" Proverbs 5:15-20

valleybldr
Oct 6th 2008, 09:42 AM
Jake: Joseph called sex before marriage, "...great wickedness, and sin against God" Gen 39:9.
One (not I) could argue the issue was adultery not fornication. When reading Torah it should be self-evident...we know it was not a good thing to found a non-virgin on your wedding night. Hmm, I wonder what that implies? Maybe Torah assumes some level of intelligence among its readers?

todd

Colossians 3:17
Oct 6th 2008, 06:40 PM
You all are preaching to the choir in this case. I am completely against sexual pleasure of any kind before marriage.

However, when I am meeting with non-Christians, or very liberal believers who may or may not be Christians, it helps to have things clearly noted. It is easy for many people to convince themselves certain things are OK because they aren't explicitly stated in scripture.

Me saying that it "should be understood" is not valid. I am just looking for clear references of it. Obviously the NT has many, so that's good.

Thanks for the help.

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 07:29 PM
I see a lot of mentioning of Adultery (sex outside of marriage WHEN you're married) in there, but fornication (sex outside of marriage in general) is not in the OT as far as I can see.

It definitely is mentioned in the NT a number of places, but where is sex before marriage said to be wrong in the OT?

I'm sure it's there somewhere.

Adultery is not specified in the O.T. as sex outside of marriage in those terms.
Take a look at Genesis....with Noah and his son uncovering his wife's nakedness and the result of a child.
Take a look at Judah having sex with Jacob's concubine.
There was and still are consequences of of sex out of marriage (adultery) and also sex before marriage.
Marriage including those who are virgins create a covenant with each other by the blood shed from being virgins.
It's there...you have to rightly divide God's word and apply it.
Or study what Jesus is speaking of and the consequences in the N.T.
It's the same as the O.T.
Seek and you shall find.

flybaby
Oct 6th 2008, 09:54 PM
Adultery is not specified in the O.T. as sex outside of marriage in those terms.
Take a look at Genesis....with Noah and his son uncovering his wife's nakedness and the result of a child.
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I'm not sure what you are talking about with Noah and his son uncovering Noah's wife's nakedness. That's not what is says happened in my Bible. Rather, Noah's son uncovered Noah's nakedness and did something to him. Nothing is mentioned about a child, nor about Noah's wife.

Genesis 9
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 11:14 PM
I'm not sure what you are talking about with Noah and his son uncovering Noah's wife's nakedness. I'm sorry I meant the nakedness of Noah which is his wife.
That's not what is says happened in my Bible. Rather, Noah's son uncovered Noah's nakedness and did something to him.
Noah's nakedness was his wife,it was done to her.
Nothing is mentioned about a child, nor about Noah's wife.
verse 18 :And the sons of Noah,that went forth of the ark,were Shem and Ham,and Japheth;and Ham is the father of Canaan.
Look at what verse 22 says about Ham saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brethren without.Ham is the father of Canaan which is his own mothers son and Ham the father.There was 8 souls who was on the ark and 8 souls who came out of the ark

Genesis 9
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Yes,Noah knew what Ham had done to his wife.
If you look at verse 26 Noah blessed Shem and put Canaan as his servant. v 27Noah blessed Japheth and Canaan shall be his servant.
As in v. 25 Where Noah cursed Canaan and;a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethen.:note::note: here These are Canaan's brethren, the same mother,not the same father.
Look at 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah,Shem,Ham;and Japheth:
I hope this helps

flybaby
Oct 6th 2008, 11:32 PM
That's not the way I see the passage laying out, but I can sort of see why you would believe that. This is the first time I have ever heard the passage being interpretted that way.

cdo
Oct 6th 2008, 11:55 PM
That's not the way I see the passage laying out, but I can sort of see why you would believe that. This is the first time I have ever heard the passage being interpretted that way.

Hey Flybaby,
Can you give me your way of how you understand it to be?
It's ok, we don't have to agree, I just wondering.
Darlene

Clydson
Oct 7th 2008, 03:27 AM
Jake: Joseph called sex before marriage, "...great wickedness, and sin against God" Gen 39:9.


This verse could also be understood to refer to commiting adultery with Potiphar's wife.

Either way, yes, sex is for married couples.




Jake: True, sex is meant by God to be exclusively used by married people. As far as Joseph committing adultery goes, he was not married at the time Potiphar's wife tried to seduce him. And in verse 39 he spoke only of himself, being unmarried, as doing this great wickedness and sin. His action, whether we call it fornication or adultery, if he had participated, would have been a transgression of God's law, for that is the definition of sin, 1 John 3:4. Both cases, adultery and fornication, are sin.



International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Fornication. - Hebrew, zanah = "to commit adultery," especially of the female, and less frequently of mere fornication, seldom of involuntary ravishment; also used figuratively in the sense of idolatry, the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Yahweh (2 Chron 21:11; Isa 23:17; Ezek 16:26). Once we find the derivative noun taznuth (Ezek 16:29). In the New Testament, with both the literal and the figurative application, we find porneia, and porneuo (Matt 5:32; 15:19; John 8:41; Acts 15:20; 1 Cor 5:1; 6:13,18; 7:2; 10:8; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1 Thess 4:3; Rev 2:14,20-21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4). The intensive ekporneuo = "to be utterly unchaste" is found in Jude verse 7. Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication."




International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
ADULTERY
(a-dul'-ter-i): In Scripture designates sexual intercourse of a man, whether married or unmarried, with a married woman.

Clay Blucher
Oct 7th 2008, 04:49 PM
Well, the first two are talking about rape.

The 3rd one just says if you are caught having sex outside of marriage you have to get married. Doesn't even explicitly say it's sinful (even though we know it is).


The first two are qualified by the position of the woman. If in the city, it is not rape since she had the chance to call for help. Not in the city means that whether rape or fornication, it cannot be verified, and so the assumption is that she was raped. Both verses are in cases where the woman is claiming rape over fornication, but in the former she is found guilty of fornication and condemned. The rabbis uphold this tradition and make sure that caveats are added (e.g., a woman in a field still in a position to call out for help must still call out for it to be rape).

As to the third, I do believe forcing two people to get married implies that casual fornication will not be tolerated. There are restrictions about who should have sex, and with this restriction informs us about what God thinks of fornication.

jponb
Oct 9th 2008, 11:12 PM
If a woman was found to have had sex before marriage, it was considered a deal breaker. Consider these scriptures.
Exodus 22:16-17
If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

Sex before marriage caused marriage.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

The former practice on wedding night was for the father to take the sheets as evidence of his daughters virginity just in case the man wanted to come back and claim she wasn't a virgin. Otherwise as you can read, the outcome for her was not good.

During intercourse, spiritual connections are taking place. The two are becoming one. The reasons why there are so many problems in relationships today is because so many of us have given away to someone else something that never was intended for them in the first place. If we save ourselves for our spouses, there are no baby mamas drama or baby daddies drama because that person is your husband or wife. There are no compare and contrast between previous lovers because there are no previous. We invited in our own problems by yielding to our flesh.