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Realist1981
Oct 6th 2008, 07:52 PM
So I've decided to tackle this mysterious character in the Old Testament.
"The Angel of the Lord". I've since equated this person as pre incarnate Christ. So I was reviewing each instance "The Angel of the Lord" appears in the Old Testament and something doesn't sit right

Gideon's account confuses that idea

I don't like copying and pasting entire chapters so please read Judges 6:11-40
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Jdg&chapter=6#n33

It seems to me that the Angel of the Lord and the Lord are seperate.

However, Unless I'm missing something, in Moses' account http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=3#n14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=3#n14)

The Angel of the Lord is the Lord himself. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e pre Incarnate Christ.

How can an Angel i.e messenger of the Lord be "The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" save Christ himself. So we have Christ being named Angel and God of Israel. The one who made the covenant to Abraham.

How does Jewish Theology explain the complexity of this paradox of words and titles?


Am I making any kind of sense? What am I missing?

Ethnikos
Oct 6th 2008, 09:46 PM
How does Jewish Theology explain the complexity of this paradox of words and titles?
I am not sure what you mean but I would not advise looking at the rabbinical writings for Bible answers. Angels were being discussed on another thread and I think it was decided that even a person could be considered an angel, in some situations.
The use of the word "lord" should be considered a mark of respect and not necessarily more than that, in most occurrences.

Richard H
Oct 7th 2008, 12:38 AM
Lord can just be a title of respect. Like Lords and Ladies.
If you see Lord or God – referring to GOD, it could be translated as Adoni meaning Lord or Elohim meaning God.

When God appears in All Caps – GOD or LORD it means His name – YHWH.
So - an angel might be called Lord in one sense of the word, but never LORD.

Your Bible version may not make this distinction.

I know GOD seemed upset by His people, when they wouldn’t use His name – only the title.
The nations which were seeing the mighty hand of YHWH, were told that it was “God”.
They had all sorts of gods and assumed it to be one of theirs.

Can man make gods for himself? Yet they are not gods!
"Therefore behold, I am going to make them know-- This time I will make them know My power and My might; And they shall know that My name is the LORD."
Jer 16:20,21

OR
This time I will make them know My power and My might; And they shall know that My name is the YHWH." (I AM)


I have heard one teacher who maintained that the angel of the Lord was actually Jesus.
Dunno.

Richard

Dani H
Oct 7th 2008, 01:50 AM
Hi Richard,

I was always under the impression that the Angel of the Lord was Jesus, in His pre-Jesus form, when He was the Word of God. So that one person you mention, isn't the only one who believes that. :)

Because the Angel of the Lord was obviously much more than a "mere angel" ... i.e. speaking to Moses from the burning bush, and other such things. And He bid Moses to take off his shoes on account of it being holy ground, which Moses did immediately. Who would remove their shoes on account of a regular angel? Because a couple of sentences later on, all of a sudden, it's the LORD talking, and so one is being led to think that Angel of the LORD and LORD = the same thing, based on Exodus 3.

2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. (Why not? If it's just an angel?)
Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” (only a holy God can make something holy ground)

On the other hand, there are archangels, and so they perhaps would manifest more of God's glory than a "lesser angel" (if there is such a thing?). Then again, in the book of Daniel, for example, an archangel would reveal himself as such (and by name, no less).

He may also have been the head of angels, even above archangels, but I'm not sure how that hierarchy is structured, and so that's only a guess. I'm not sure if archangels directly answer to God or if there is another "layer in the chain of command" so to speak.

markedward
Oct 7th 2008, 02:57 AM
I've noticed that in many (if not all) of the occasions that the Angel of YHWH appears, the text interchangeably says that the Angel of YHWH, or YHWH is speaking. On some occasions, the Angel of YHWH takes credit for things YHWH Himself did.

Obsoive.


The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you."The Angel of YHWH is clearly identifying himself with YHWH by:

A) Claiming that he (the Angel of YHWH) was the one who brought the Hebrews out of Egypt

B) Claiming that the covenant made with Israel was his (the Angel of YHWH) covenant

C) Claiming that the Hebrews disobeyed him (the Angel of YHWH)

Realist1981
Oct 7th 2008, 12:44 PM
yes markward that's what I thought but the only passage where the Angel of the Lord appears to be a different entity from the Lord himself is in the passage I quoted in the original post Judges 6

Realist1981
Oct 7th 2008, 12:48 PM
I am not sure what you mean but I would not advise looking at the rabbinical writings for Bible answers. Angels were being discussed on another thread and I think it was decided that even a person could be considered an angel, in some situations.
The use of the word "lord" should be considered a mark of respect and not necessarily more than that, in most occurrences.

Your point is taken but I believe you miss my meaning.

Obviously they don't view The Angel of the Lord as Jesus. I just want to know what they think these passages are saying. How can God be called an angel but yet still be God.

I guess I should pose this question to Fenris.

Br. Barnabas
Oct 7th 2008, 01:12 PM
I have written a paper about angels in the Torah. I will post it on Google documents or something like that so that people can read it if they like. I start out by showing different examples of angels that are found in the Torah, such as angel, Cherubim, Seraphim, and the angel of YHWH. Then I take a close look at two stories from the Torah that have very interesting accounts of angels. They are the near sacrifice of Issac and the story of Balaam and his ass.

I will post another response to the topic when I get the paper set up online; giving a link to it and what not. I hope that it will be able to answer your question about the angel of the LORD (YHWH).

Richard H
Oct 7th 2008, 01:49 PM
The Angel of the Lord Gen 16:1
mal'âk mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

Seraphim Isaiah 6:2
śârâph saw-rawf'
From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color): - fiery (serpent), seraph.

Cherubim Gen 3:24
kerûb ker-oob'
Of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure: - cherub, [plural] cherubims.

Teke
Oct 7th 2008, 08:04 PM
So I've decided to tackle this mysterious character in the Old Testament.
"The Angel of the Lord". I've since equated this person as pre incarnate Christ. So I was reviewing each instance "The Angel of the Lord" appears in the Old Testament and something doesn't sit right

Gideon's account confuses that idea

I don't like copying and pasting entire chapters so please read Judges 6:11-40
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Jdg&chapter=6#n33

It seems to me that the Angel of the Lord and the Lord are seperate.

However, Unless I'm missing something, in Moses' account http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=3#n14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=3#n14)

The Angel of the Lord is the Lord himself. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e pre Incarnate Christ.

How can an Angel i.e messenger of the Lord be "The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" save Christ himself. So we have Christ being named Angel and God of Israel. The one who made the covenant to Abraham.

How does Jewish Theology explain the complexity of this paradox of words and titles?


Am I making any kind of sense? What am I missing?

In Judges 6:18 the last part of the verse in the Sept. reads "I am. I will wait until you come back."
The "I am" identifies this as our Lord and God.

Biastai
Oct 9th 2008, 03:00 AM
I've seen that idea elsewhere also. In Eusebius' History of the Church, he seemed to claim anytime YHWH entered into man's physical perception, he appeared as Jesus. As an example, he used the angel with whom Jacob wrestled.

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 03:39 AM
I've seen that idea elsewhere also. In Eusebius' History of the Church, he seemed to claim anytime YHWH entered into man's physical perception, he appeared as Jesus. As an example, he used the angel with whom Jacob wrestled.
Hi Biastai, :) Welcome!

Thanks for the ref to Eusebius. I hadn't heard of him before. I see now he wrote a bit about Constantine.

So if the angel with whom Jacob wrestled was Jesus, do you think Jesus let him win?

Richard

Dani H
Oct 9th 2008, 03:49 AM
So if the angel with whom Jacob wrestled was Jesus, do you think Jesus let him win?


How did Jesus let him win, if He touched him, and he was forever changed after that, to the point where God changed his name from Jacob to Israel and brought forth a nation from him that would ultimately bring forth the Messiah?

Depends on from which angle you want to approach "prevailed," I suppose.

Either way, methinks God won that round ...

:)

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 03:57 AM
How did Jesus let him win, if He touched him, and he was forever changed after that, to the point where God changed his name from Jacob to Israel and brought forth a nation from him that would ultimately bring forth the Messiah?

Depends on from which angle you want to approach "prevailed," I suppose.

Either way, methinks God won that round ...

:)
It does say he dislocated Jacob's hip, but then it says that Jacob would not let go. I think that's why Jacob was blessed; he would not let go of the Lord.

Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak.
When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him.
Then he said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." But he said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."
Gen 32:24-28

Dani H
Oct 9th 2008, 04:33 AM
It does say he dislocated Jacob's hip, but then it says that Jacob would not let go. I think that's why Jacob was blessed; he would not let go of the Lord.


I would have to agree with that assessment.

I still think God won though (see above). :)

Jacob insisted on being blessed, so at some point in the game he would have to have understood who exacly he was wrestling with ...

Do you think Jesus was holding back to keep Jacob going?

Biastai
Oct 9th 2008, 04:39 AM
Hi Biastai, :) Welcome!

Thanks for the ref to Eusebius. I hadn't heard of him before. I see now he wrote a bit about Constantine.

So if the angel with whom Jacob wrestled was Jesus, do you think Jesus let him win?

Richard

Thank you for the welcome.

Its not something I believe myself. I just remembered this writer's reference to that particular idea. As for winning, I wouldn't say Jacob won so to speak. The angel determined he did enough to earn a blessing though.

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 07:00 AM
Prevail (Strongs)
yâkôl yâkôl yaw-kole', yaw-kole'
A primitive root; to be able, literally (can, could) or morally (may, might): - be able, any at all (ways), attain, can (away with, [-not]), could, endure, might, overcome, have power, prevail, still, suffer.

I don’t think Jacob would have really won an actual competition.
The angel certainly had the power to supernaturally injure his opponent with a mere touch.

These passages give us a hint what Yeshua could do and what he allowed to happen.

This: when Jesus was standing before Pilate.
So Pilate *said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?"
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
Joh 19:10,11

And this: when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
Joh 10:17,18

Richard

PS: I heard Arthur Blessit years ago tell how he had been captured by some Condonistas who were about to shoot him.
He turned to get his Bible out of the kidnappers’ vehicle before being shot. He didn’t see anything, but heard the sound of "meat" punches.
When he turned around ready to die now that he had his Bible, the kidnappers were all knocked out - strewn several feet from where they had been standing.

Richard H
Oct 9th 2008, 07:04 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

Its not something I believe myself. I just remembered this writer's reference to that particular idea. As for winning, I wouldn't say Jacob won so to speak. The angel determined he did enough to earn a blessing though.
Yes, Biastai. he certainly earned a blessing for endurance.

jponb
Oct 9th 2008, 11:28 PM
It is my belief that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus. No one has ever seen the face of God the Father at anytime but they have seen Jesus. Download a copy of Justin Martyr dialogue with Trypho the Jew. He makes some great points on this subject matter as well as provide some great evangelism tools that can be used. When you read it, tell me what you think about it.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 10th 2008, 12:00 AM
It is my belief that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus. No one has ever seen the face of God the Father at anytime but they have seen Jesus. . l

ЯIGΉƬ ΛMIGӨ,

And then He comes to the creature in its same form to save the creature, so to save angels He [Jesus] became one of them, and then:


Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Then "... we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4: 15-16.


God bless


_______________
All peace


-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

BroRog
Oct 10th 2008, 12:08 AM
The angel of the Lord is a messenger from the Lord. He speaks in the first person singular, not because the angel is the Lord, but because the Angel is repeating what God actually said.

The same thing is true when a prophet speaks for God. In this case, he uses the construction, "Thus saith the Lord . . ." which is then followed by a speech given in the first person singular.