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keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 10:53 PM
Was Yeshua/Jesus a sin offering or did He 'become sin'?

I am so perplexed and troubled by this, I keep hearing preachers say that Yeshua/Jesus 'became sin'. I can not believe God can 'become sin', not for a moment. I do believe He offered Himself up as our 'sin offering,' or that He carried the weight of our sins, or any manner of substitutionary references. So I earnesty seek the multitude of awesome, God-loving posters here for thier views.

One thing, I just want to post the whole Psalm Yeshua began before He gave Himself up on the cross...


"ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?"
אלי אלי למה עזבתני
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest.
Psa 22:3 Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.
Psa 22:5 To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
Psa 22:9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
Psa 22:13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me;
Psa 22:18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
Psa 22:19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My only life from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
Psa 22:22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
Psa 22:25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
Psa 22:26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever!
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S And He rules over the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity will serve Him; It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
Psa 22:31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

markedward
Oct 6th 2008, 10:55 PM
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is a literal rendering of the text, but the meaning of it is the same as Him becoming a "sin-offering" or "to take sin upon" Himself, etc.

keck553
Oct 6th 2008, 10:58 PM
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is a literal rendering of the text, but the meaning of it is the same as Him becoming a "sin-offering" or "to take sin upon" Himself, etc.

In other words, to take the (consequences of) sin upon Himself on our behalf?

markedward
Oct 6th 2008, 11:05 PM
Both. To take the consequences of sin upon Himself, He first took the sin upon Himself. He "became" sin. And then He was sacrificed.

He didn't become a sinful being (a sinner).

9Marksfan
Oct 7th 2008, 11:31 AM
There are other passages that may help you:-

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") Gal 3:13 NKJV

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending Hid own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh Rom 8:3 NKJV

This means that sin was condemned in Jesus - which is why there is NO condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus - had God not condemned sin in Christ, then we would have to face condemnation ourselves. Christ bore the wrath of God on our behalf - Jehovah's sword was awoken against His Shepherd (Zech 13:7) - both Matthew (26:31) and Mark (14:27) make it clear that it is ultimately GOD ("I will strike") who struck His own Son:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief Is 53:10 NKJV

This is one of the hardest and deepest truths in the whole of the Bible - but one of the most important - it shows just how far God had to go to save us - and how utterly abhorrent our sin is to Him. And yet how determined He was to deal with it - so that we could be with Him for ever and ever! :pp:pp:pp

9Marksfan
Oct 7th 2008, 11:32 AM
Both. To take the consequences of sin upon Himself, He first took the sin upon Himself. He "became" sin. And then He was sacrificed.

He didn't become a sinful being (a sinner).

Well put. Strikes the balance. Jesus did not suffer for his own sins, for He had none - but He suffered on OUR behalf - and was MADE sin for that purpose.

keck553
Oct 7th 2008, 03:42 PM
The Greek is very difficult to translate in this particular passage, mostly because I don't know the syntax very well. I just don't think 'he became sin' is good enough. It's mis-leading, or at least incomplete. I don't think the gray words should have been added, but that's my personal issue.

Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 help a lot, because I understand Hebrew syntax and the Hebrew thought behind the words.

This concept is not new in rabbinic thought, although the rabbis in their blindness totally messed it up. Some rabbi's actually believe that the death of many, including some of their famous sages and rabbi's - even Holocaust victims somehow atone for their sins. Serious. Right concept, but a sinful human can not atone for sinful man, and the Word of God in the TeNakh clearly shows that in the 'picture' of the unblemished lamb, but they choose to ignore God's word and put religiouos traditions and man's teachings over the word of God. We really need to pray for them.

Yeshua indeed bore our sins, took them on Himself. Carried the weight. His death was a substitute for our death sentence, but He alone put death under His feet. No one else could. We all know why. Because He's God.

mcgyver
Oct 7th 2008, 04:02 PM
Was Yeshua/Jesus a sin offering or did He 'become sin'?

I am so perplexed and troubled by this, I keep hearing preachers say that Yeshua/Jesus 'became sin'. I can not believe God can 'become sin', not for a moment. I do believe He offered Himself up as our 'sin offering,' or that He carried the weight of our sins, or any manner of substitutionary references. So I earnesty seek the multitude of awesome, God-loving posters here for thier views.

As you are familiar with the Torah, it might be helpful in understanding the phrase "became sin for us" in light of the 2 goats used on the Day of Atonement by Aaron in Leviticus chap 16.

As you well know, one goat was chosen by lot to be the sin offering, and the other the scape-goat.

The sin offering was of course as "payment" for sin...not too much needs to be said about that...

The scape-goat is the one I want to focus on for a moment:

"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev 16:21-22 NKJV

In the laying on of hands and confession of all Israel's sins, the scape-goat "became sin" for the transgressions of Israel. The picture of course is that sin was both paid for by the blood of the sin-offering goat, and removed from the camp of Israel by the scape-goat.

A perfect foreshadowing of the work of Christ, when He both paid our sin debt (sin offering), and removed all stain of sin from us ("became sin" in the manner of the scape-goat).

Sure hope this helps! :)

Teke
Oct 7th 2008, 06:11 PM
The Greek is very difficult to translate in this particular passage, mostly because I don't know the syntax very well. I just don't think 'he became sin' is good enough. It's mis-leading, or at least incomplete. I don't think the gray words should have been added, but that's my personal issue.

Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 help a lot, because I understand Hebrew syntax and the Hebrew thought behind the words.

This concept is not new in rabbinic thought, although the rabbis in their blindness totally messed it up. Some rabbi's actually believe that the death of many, including some of their famous sages and rabbi's - even Holocaust victims somehow atone for their sins. Serious. Right concept, but a sinful human can not atone for sinful man, and the Word of God in the TeNakh clearly shows that in the 'picture' of the unblemished lamb, but they choose to ignore God's word and put religiouos traditions and man's teachings over the word of God. We really need to pray for them.

Yeshua indeed bore our sins, took them on Himself. Carried the weight. His death was a substitute for our death sentence, but He alone put death under His feet. No one else could. We all know why. Because He's God.

I'll try to explain without getting to technical or in depth with the Greek.

The Greek koinonia expresses the same Hebrew concept you've expressed above (the rabbi's aren't so messed up). The concept which is also associated with the Trinitarian doctrine of perienchoresis, which is a "sharing" or "exchange".

The thought is expressed throughout scripture in the NT in the Greek "one-another" words.

So rather than "to be" or "became" sin for us, the meaning would be likened more to voluntarily assuming the consequences of our sin, that being corruption (aging of body) and death which is a state of being in human flesh. This He did without sinning Himself.

And of course this is all said in relation to the Mercy Seat. As the evangelist John said, Behold the Lamb of God, meant in relation to reconciliation between man and God, the Peace offering. The understanding of a peace offering is shown throughout the OT, both within the liturgical expressions of worship and outside among people in their lives.

He assumed our humanity that we would be able to share in the righteousness of God, just as God has shared in our suffering of His judgment of sin. Suffering is also related to experiencing the consuming fire of God. ex. the bush which Moses saw burning yet was not consumed (Lam 3:22 [It is of] the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Death is not substituted, we will still die as the judgment stands. However, because Jesus/God shared with us in assuming this also, we will share in His righteousness as the Resurrection exemplifies.

Metaphors relating God's work should not be confused with evil, sin or the devil. Jesus did not assume the body of an angel such as the devil, but that of humanity to save us. Paul describes such love as kenotic (self emptying).

Hope this helps more than confuses. :)

keck553
Oct 7th 2008, 06:31 PM
As you are familiar with the Torah, it might be helpful in understanding the phrase "became sin for us" in light of the 2 goats used on the Day of Atonement by Aaron in Leviticus chap 16.

As you well know, one goat was chosen by lot to be the sin offering, and the other the scape-goat.

The sin offering was of course as "payment" for sin...not too much needs to be said about that...

The scape-goat is the one I want to focus on for a moment:

"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev 16:21-22 NKJV

In the laying on of hands and confession of all Israel's sins, the scape-goat "became sin" for the transgressions of Israel. The picture of course is that sin was both paid for by the blood of the sin-offering goat, and removed from the camp of Israel by the scape-goat.

A perfect foreshadowing of the work of Christ, when He both paid our sin debt (sin offering), and removed all stain of sin from us ("became sin" in the manner of the scape-goat).

Sure hope this helps! :)

Thank you. Yes. Surely God has answered my question through you. Yes, I understand the concept, but never did put the two together like you just did in terms of sin-offering and carrying away our sin (as far as east is from west). I'm not sure why, it's so obvious and fits so well.

God bless you always. Thanks

Teke
Oct 7th 2008, 06:47 PM
Thank you. Yes. Surely God has answered my question through you. Yes, I understand the concept, but never did put the two together like you just did in terms of sin-offering and carrying away our sin (as far as east is from west). I'm not sure why, it's so obvious and fits so well.

God bless you always. Thanks

While I can see a spiritual lesson from the goats, I do not see a goat doing the job of the priest. Jesus is our High Priest, not a goat. The two shouldn't be confused. As animals like goats have no free will or compassion which are human qualities.

The scape goat sent out represented the forgiveness of sin which the priest had prayed for on behalf of the people. Moses began the practice at Sinai, and he didn't use any animals such as goats. Animals were part of worship in that they were monetary payment to the priests for their work, priests couldn't own anything.
Jesus did no less as our High Priest when He prayed for our forgiveness. "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

keck553
Oct 7th 2008, 07:01 PM
Teke, I know Yeshua's not a goat. It's a metaphor, or a 'shadow' as some would like to call it. These feasts combined show all the work of Messiah. I know, as with the earthly picture God gave us of the High Priest on earth, He entered alone on our behalf, into the Holy of Holies, but not the one built by man, but the heavenly Holy of Holies to sprinkle His blood on the heavenly mercy seat. It was a one time sacrifice, not only however only for the sins of Israel, but for all the sin of the world. By accomplishing this Yeshua became our bridge to God. It is the blood that atones for sin.Yeshua has and still is accomplishing this atonement for us and for the world, in heaven.

Praise Him.

9Marksfan
Oct 7th 2008, 07:35 PM
As you are familiar with the Torah, it might be helpful in understanding the phrase "became sin for us" in light of the 2 goats used on the Day of Atonement by Aaron in Leviticus chap 16.

As you well know, one goat was chosen by lot to be the sin offering, and the other the scape-goat.

The sin offering was of course as "payment" for sin...not too much needs to be said about that...

The scape-goat is the one I want to focus on for a moment:

"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev 16:21-22 NKJV

In the laying on of hands and confession of all Israel's sins, the scape-goat "became sin" for the transgressions of Israel. The picture of course is that sin was both paid for by the blood of the sin-offering goat, and removed from the camp of Israel by the scape-goat.

A perfect foreshadowing of the work of Christ, when He both paid our sin debt (sin offering), and removed all stain of sin from us ("became sin" in the manner of the scape-goat).

Sure hope this helps! :)

Excellent explanation - well put! :)

keck553
Oct 7th 2008, 07:38 PM
You all are awesome. God bless you all.

Teke
Oct 7th 2008, 07:41 PM
Thing is, we shouldn't get metaphors or shadows confused with reality. Priests still need monetary payment for the work they do. Such things should not be spiritualized to non existence where everything is spiritual, a form of monism. Christianity is monotheistic. A right order of things.

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Just keeping things in their rightful order. ;)

keck553
Oct 7th 2008, 08:37 PM
Are't we priests? We no longer have a levitical line of priests who aren't allowed to own anything.

And the last I checked, 'priests' like Benny Hinn has more riches in his small jeans pocket and owns more worldy stuff that I ever made or will ever possess in my life (not that I want it).

But I understand the need to support our congregations in all ways.

By the way, I try to be careful with the word 'shadow'. Many times throughout the Bible you'll find the shadow-caster is God.

Teke
Oct 8th 2008, 02:25 PM
Are't we priests? We no longer have a levitical line of priests who aren't allowed to own anything.

And the last I checked, 'priests' like Benny Hinn has more riches in his small jeans pocket and owns more worldy stuff that I ever made or will ever possess in my life (not that I want it).

But I understand the need to support our congregations in all ways.

By the way, I try to be careful with the word 'shadow'. Many times throughout the Bible you'll find the shadow-caster is God.

Jesus said to leave all and follow Him. Those that literally obey this command should be supported by the rest of us. I am a firm believer in this.
Living the reality of what Jesus taught is important to the foundation of His teachings, even if all of us can't do such.

These are what we'd call the prophets of the church so to speak (to put it in simple terms). They are seldom seen or heard, unless they are sought out by a seeker, but they exist. They are certainly not Benny Hinn types or the likes such as that. They own nothing.

Emanate
Oct 8th 2008, 04:31 PM
Thing is, we shouldn't get metaphors or shadows confused with reality. Priests still need monetary payment for the work they do. Such things should not be spiritualized to non existence where everything is spiritual, a form of monism. Christianity is monotheistic. A right order of things.

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Just keeping things in their rightful order. ;)


If you trace the history, Rabbis in the first century received no pay for their work. Priests received no pay, just room and board so to speak. Pastors in churches received no pay for their work until Christianity became part of the official religion of Rome.

Teke
Oct 8th 2008, 05:48 PM
If you trace the history, Rabbis in the first century received no pay for their work. Priests received no pay, just room and board so to speak. Pastors in churches received no pay for their work until Christianity became part of the official religion of Rome.

I wasn't talking about money necessarily, but support from others in the sense of charity and hospitality, which is their needs being met by God through His people/body the church. Else they would gladly do without otherwise. Asking nothing of no one. They've already committed to a life of poverty.

I am a supporter of monasticism. It is health to the Body in many ways. Both receiving and giving. There is much virtue to be found there for the economy of Christians. Which is why it is attacked so greatly, especially in the east (ie. the Ottoman Turks "Muslims" in Constantinople)

In my religion in America, our priests (who are not required to be monastics) work regular jobs as well as serving the church. The church does not pay them. They are part, as is all in the church, of the whole. Their service is their payment.

Our bishops on the other hand, are monastics according to our church canons. They own nothing and their position as bishops is one they are called to, not one they choose. It is our tradition to give them gifts, whether that be money or other things they may need. Their needs are menial and most all monies go to charity such as feeding the poor of their flock from their monasteries and churches. So for instance, when my bishop visits this year, our small church will give him a gift, which he will in turn give to another where he will go. In our case that would be in Russia and/or Africa where the more needy are.

There are other Christian monastics, which are never seen. They live in caves or in the desert, secluded from the world and it's influence, living lives of prayer. I would also note that even in our modern US society, there are the recluses who live out their lives quietly in prayer away from society as much as possible. Known as Christian shut ins.

Whoever and where ever they are, I honor them in their commitment to a life dedicated to Christ and prayer. They are role models for us all.
I love to visit them and do whatever they will allow me to for them. They've been very helpful with the Holy Spirit as spiritual guides for me.
Just as I would go and see a professional doctor for my bodily ailments, I would go and see one with more experience than I for things like help with prayer or spiritual insight. IOW things more precious than silver or gold, things money can't buy. ;)