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moonglow
Oct 7th 2008, 02:46 PM
I notice alot of people feel in their hearts the tribulation is near..yet the bible says our hearts are wicked!

Jeremiah 17:9

9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

Paul Washer sermon jam 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY6F0pkArds) ('how do you know you are saved' is his message...kind of important if you think the tribulation is about to start).

I am saying..don't trust your heart!

The definition for the heart in the bible means the mind..our emotions...feelings.

30 years ago I was having alot of end time dreams and felt in my heart the tribulation was about to start. It obviously didn't. Why was I wrong? Many others were saying the same thing. 20 years ago people were saying they felt in their hearts the end was near...10 years ago people were saying the same thing...last year people were saying this...a year from now people will be saying this...five years from now they will be saying this...10, 20, 30 years from now they will be saying this. Shoot they were saying this in Paul's day that Christ was about to return...

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2th&chapter=002)

Verse 1
Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him;

This outlines the chapter, which regards the Second Advent, an event which the Thessalonians had mistakenly assumed to be "just at hand," some of them actually having stopped work in anticipation of it!

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ...
For comments on this title, see under 2 Thess. 1:2. "Coming" in this place refers to the final Advent and not to some manifestation of power and grace prior to the Advent.

Our gathering together unto him ...
The great feature of the final day will be the uniting of believers with the Lord. The expression "gathering together" is found nowhere else in the New Testament except in Heb. 10:25, where it signifies the gathering together of the Christians for worship.

Verse 2
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;

This is Paul's denial that he ever taught that the judgment day was "at hand" in his lifetime. True, some of the Thessalonians had mistakenly understood it that way, but it was their fault by doing so, not Paul's; and in the same manner, the exegetes of our own times who are always prattling about Christ and the apostles being mistaken in their assumption that the Second Advent was soon to arrive have mistakenly read the New Testament, and it is their fault, not the fault of the New Testament. In fact, Satan may have had a strong hand in fostering the misunderstanding. Hendriksen said:

In view of 2 Thess. 3:17, the idea that someone had even sent a forged letter (a letter purporting to be from Paul) - though open to certain objections - cannot be lightly dismissed. F2

Shaken from your mind ...
This means "thrown off the course of sound reasoning and thinking."

It is clear enough from this verse that Paul denied having anything whatever to do with creating the false notion in the heads of the some of the Thessalonians that they might expect the coming of the Lord at once!
************************

Then he clearly tells us what the signs will be ...what will happen just before the return of Christ. There is no need to try to rely on our feelings on this. When it happens you will know without a doubt what is going on.

So lets say the end is not near! What are you going to do with the rest of your life?

Do you know what plans God has for you? What work He wants you to be doing? Are you busy doing His work?

The best thing we can do to be ready for the end is be working on our relationship with Him! Everyone does these post to 'get ready' 'be ready'...but never say exactly what that is. I mean exactly how do you get ready for an antichrist?

Matthew 24 says those in Judea are to flee when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place...

Some take that to mean to just flee wherever they are at...but yet if the whole world is affected by a beast...an antichrist, where exactly will it be safe? If earthquakes are going on everywhere, hundred pound hail is falling from the sky...fires burning everywhere...exactly where are going to flee too?

Since Jesus says those IN Judea need to flee I would say this only concerns those actually in Judea...

Someone on another thread brought up some good points on food shortage...that it would do no good to stock up on food as those hungry mops will be breaking down your door and stealing it..probably over your dead body. Plus not all of us have the money to buy extra food anyway.

Some think going to the woods and living will be a good idea, yet Revelation says a third of the trees and grass will burn and the water will be poison. Mountains leveled, islands disappearing...

Only the wicked seems to be trying to hide in caves.

So how do you 'get ready?'

The bible says nothing about us 'getting ready' or listening to our hearts to know when the time is near.

I would get ready like you would if you knew you only had six months left to live. Get right with God.

God bless

Dani H
Oct 7th 2008, 03:00 PM
If we really live every day as if we expected Jesus to return on that day, then we would be ready, always.

I understand what it is like to be aching for the return of the Bridegroom, and to be longing for Him so much. But we should carry that into our prayer closets and sup with Him, and He with us. :)

Sure, it's good to be like the children of Issachar who could discern the signs of the times, but I think there is too much assumption happening, and not enough knowing. We can think we know, when we don't really know at all. We may have a sense of something, that could be related to something entirely different, i.e. anxiety within ourselves, among a host of other things. But, we have been commanded to not let our hearts be troubled, and to let God's peace be the arbitrator within our hearts. And so His children should always walk in that peace, above anything else. Every generation for the last 2000 years has claimed that theirs was the last, and that the great tribulation was surely upon them, or at least at the doors, and yet, here we still all are. :)

Realist1981
Oct 7th 2008, 03:02 PM
Paul wrote the second letter to the Thessalonians because they thought the second coming of Christ already happened based off of his first letter to them. That's why he corrected them.

HisLeast
Oct 7th 2008, 03:29 PM
Wait... I thought total assurance that the 7 year tribulation started exactly "very soon" was a salvation issue. ;)

moonglow
Oct 7th 2008, 03:38 PM
Oh I hope for Christ's return everyday! But that is different then the dread of expecting the beast everyday...

My grandma used to have a poster in her kitchen that I puzzled over alot as a child..it said...

Say nothing you wouldn't want to be saying when Christ returns

Do nothing you wouldn't want to be doing when Christ returns

Hear nothing you wouldn't want to be hearing when Christ returns

First it took me a long time to even understand that poster..then when I did
as a child that seemed pretty impossible as the expectation was to basically be perfect at all times because you never know when He will return! And being a kid...well...I wasn't exactly any angel...so that had me a little worried...:rolleyes:

Now as an adult though I understand. Jesus WILL return unexpectedly and we need to be busy doing our Father's work when He does. Sure there will be signs...maybe that is why for thousands of years people have been expecting Him...the signs keep us on our toes so to speak...;) So we don't slack off...

God bless

aceinthehouse
Oct 7th 2008, 03:42 PM
Moonglow....

#1)Israel became a Nation in 1948(The Generation that see's this happen,will be the only generation to not die)More evidence of the rapture as the living will be "caught up" and a Generation is a 100 years.

#2)Condaleeza Rice has said herself that a "Peace Plan" is in the works for Israel,but not finalized till our next President sometime next year.My reasoning for it being the "7 year plan" will be explain on #3)....The "7 year peace treaty" will be the beginning of the "7 year Great Tribulation period"...Probably the #1 prophesy in the bible to PROVE that we are there!

#3)Russia,Iran and China are already allies and making nuclear trades and positioning their pieces on the chess board my friend.They have many other Middle Eastern Countries with them and are specifically the Countries that will invade Israel in the Battle of Armegeddon.

#4)Do to the fact that we ARE the generation of Jesus Christ return also means 1 other thing...That the Antichrist is here already!He(satan) has to be allowed by God to do the things that was written so long ago,for everything to take place as was said in the bible!So the question remains....If the Antichrist is already here,then who is it?


Nobody knows who he is,but I have a pretty good idea....yet this idea seems laughed at!We shall see...


I don't honestly know when the rapture will be cause it very well could be pre,mid or even post....But I believe in my heart that this decade is going to be very interesting none-the less....

Lets just say Jesus isn't just at the door now,he's knocking!

God bless you all and stay VERY close to Jesus Christ!

Literalist-Luke
Oct 7th 2008, 03:56 PM
If I were to make a guess on how long we have left (and that's all it is, a guess, nothing more), I would say the Tribulation is still a good 40-50 years off if not more. Of course, there's no telling what events between now and then could dramatically speed things up.

My reasoning behind that is because the Antichrist is going to be Islamic, Babylon is going to have to rise again to become a world-class city, plus the Antichrist is going to be from the region around Turkey. Babylon and Turkey will both have to rise for the Tribulation to get underway.

(Those of you who are Pope=Antichrist and "Revived Roman Empire" enthusiasts, just save your breath, I'm not interested.)

Oh, and for those who will wag your finger at me, saying that I should live every day like He's coming tomorrow, our life is nothing but a puff of wind. There's no telling what could happen any moment to end my life. I'm still prepared to meet Jesus at any moment, regardless of when the Tribulation is, so chill.

HisLeast
Oct 7th 2008, 03:57 PM
#1)Israel became a Nation in 1948(The Generation that see's this happen,will be the only generation to not die)More evidence of the rapture as the living will be "caught up" and a Generation is a 100 years.

This is something I grew up "knowing" to be true. Except prior to the 1980's everyone was saying a generation was 40 years and not a second longer. After reading the scriptures with no preconceived notions I was very confused, because I didn't find half the stuff I thought I knew. So my question is...
(1) How long is a generation, really?
(2) How do we know the nation of Isreal as it is today is prophetic fulfillment?


#2)Condaleeza Rice has said herself that a "Peace Plan" is in the works for Israel,but not finalized till our next President sometime next year.My reasoning for it being the "7 year plan" will be explain on #3)....The "7 year peace treaty" will be the beginning of the "7 year Great Tribulation period"...Probably the #1 prophesy in the bible to PROVE that we are there!
It'll be interesting (1) if the plan is ever implemented and (2) it actually has anything to do wit h"7 years". So far its a rumor of something that might be implemented.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 7th 2008, 04:06 PM
#1)Israel became a Nation in 1948(The Generation that see's this happen,will be the only generation to not die)Jesus was referring the generation of His day not passing away until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's already been fulfilled.
More evidence of the rapture as the living will be "caught up" and a Generation is a 100 years.So what number will you randomly choose for a generation when 2049 rolls around and we're still here?
#2)Condaleeza Rice has said herself that a "Peace Plan" is in the works for Israel,but not finalized till our next President sometime next year.My reasoning for it being the "7 year plan" will be explain on #3)....The "7 year peace treaty" will be the beginning of the "7 year Great Tribulation period"...Probably the #1 prophesy in the bible to PROVE that we are there!So then, who's the antichrist? Obama? We'll see.
#3)Russia,Iran and China are already allies and making nuclear trades and positioning their pieces on the chess board my friend.They have many other Middle Eastern Countries with them and are specifically the Countries that will invade Israel in the Battle of Armegeddon.Revelation 16 makes it clear that every nation on earth invades Israel at Armageddon.
#4)Do to the fact that we ARE the generation of Jesus Christ return also means 1 other thing...That the Antichrist is here already!That would be nice.....(if the Rapture were really that close, that is)
He(satan) has to be allowed by God to do the things that was written so long ago,for everything to take place as was said in the bible!So the question remains....If the Antichrist is already here,then who is it?Looks to me like you're saying it's Obama
Nobody knows who he is,but I have a pretty good idea....yet this idea seems laughed at!We shall see...Withholding information? :cool:

moonglow
Oct 7th 2008, 04:50 PM
Hate to add a third objection to your post here...but I grew up being told this stuff too and can't just let it slide...



[QUOTE=aceinthehouse;1815312]Moonglow....

#1)Israel became a Nation in 1948(The Generation that see's this happen,will be the only generation to not die)More evidence of the rapture as the living will be "caught up" and a Generation is a 100 years.

There is nothing in the bible saying Israel has to become a nation again before these things take place....the verse commonly used is the 'fig tree' blooming in Matthew 24 but a closer look in Luke 21 says when ALL trees are blooming we know summer is near.


29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.

Not too mention if this were true why then did some of the Christians in Paul's day think they missed the return of Christ? Certain preachers in recent times, pushed the idea of the fig tree blooming to mean Israel would become a nation and all of these things couldn't happened until that event happened. They either use this verse in Matthew (ignoring the passage in Luke 21) or use verses in the OT that were already fulfilled. Jesus is truly simply pointing out how if we can tell when summer is near, due to trees blooming (any tree!) then surely we can see the other signs clearly that He is talking about to come. Its no more then that but in the 70's Hal Lindsey make the idea popular this meant Israel coming a nation. The fig tree blooming. Hal doesn't have a great record on getting prophesies right. He also said the United kingdom was the seven headed beast.. He has made many predictions...they don't pan out so he makes up new ones and still has followers though he has the mark of being a false prophet. I hate to say this stuff about him as I used to be a follower of his also...but seriously...just believe what Jesus says...by their fruits you will know them.


#2)Condaleeza Rice has said herself that a "Peace Plan" is in the works for Israel,but not finalized till our next President sometime next year.My reasoning for it being the "7 year plan" will be explain on #3)....The "7 year peace treaty" will be the beginning of the "7 year Great Tribulation period"...Probably the #1 prophesy in the bible to PROVE that we are there!

They were working on a peace treaty thirty years ago too! Which is partly why at the time I thought we were on the verge of the seven year trib also...the peace treaties fail every time! They have been trying for years and years...so I wouldn't hold my breath on this one either.


#3)Russia,Iran and China are already allies and making nuclear trades and positioning their pieces on the chess board my friend.They have many other Middle Eastern Countries with them and are specifically the Countries that will invade Israel in the Battle of Armegeddon.

heard this 30 years ago too. I believe that yes, we would have nuked ourselves long ago if it wasn't for the hand of God...


#4)Do to the fact that we ARE the generation of Jesus Christ return also means 1 other thing...That the Antichrist is here already!He(satan) has to be allowed by God to do the things that was written so long ago,for everything to take place as was said in the bible!So the question remains....If the Antichrist is already here,then who is it?

Jesus doesn't say 'that generation far into the future.' Who was He talking TOO when He said this generation? He was talking to the disciples standing right there in front of Him. He said to them..'this generation'. How do you think the disciples took it? Did they think oh He doesn't mean our generation but some future generation?



Nobody knows who he is,but I have a pretty good idea....yet this idea seems laughed at!We shall see...


I don't honestly know when the rapture will be cause it very well could be pre,mid or even post....But I believe in my heart that this decade is going to be very interesting none-the less....

Lets just say Jesus isn't just at the door now,he's knocking!

God bless you all and stay VERY close to Jesus Christ!

God bless you too. Yes I agree Jesus is knocking on the hearts of all that will receive Him and has been for a long long time now.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 7th 2008, 08:28 PM
Jesus was referring the generation of His day not passing away until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's already been fulfilled.


Hi LL!

Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall not pass, is the generation that will see 'all these things'

What 'all things' are these?

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This [Matt 24:32] is the spring time season:

Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Was AD70 the summer?

I believe the tribulation days are much closer then 40 years, but I do very much agree with you that the antichrist will hijack Islam, and that Turkey will be very much involved. I don't believe that Russia is Gog or Magog.

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 12:19 AM
Hi LL!

Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall not pass, is the generation that will see 'all these things'

What 'all things' are these?

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This [Matt 24:32] is the spring time season:

Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Was AD70 the summer?

I believe the tribulation days are much closer then 40 years, but I do very much agree with you that the antichrist will hijack Islam, and that Turkey will be very much involved. I don't believe that Russia is Gog or Magog.

Jesus wasn't saying it would be summertime...He was only using this as an example of how people notice the signs of when summer is near and should be able to notice the signs of the times. He goes on to say they should pray their flight isn't in the winter or on the Sabbath...why? Why would He say such a thing if He knew this would happen in the summertime?

For those that think He meant the whole literal world would be involved in this and if you think its in the summer when it will happen you have a major problem...its summer in some parts of the world when its winter in the other parts! Its never summer all over the world at the same time...

70 A.D. is a year...like 2008 is a year...

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 8th 2008, 01:51 AM
Hi LL!

Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall not pass, is the generation that will see 'all these things'

What 'all things' are these?

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This [Matt 24:32] is the spring time season:

Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Was AD70 the summer?

I believe the tribulation days are much closer then 40 years, but I do very much agree with you that the antichrist will hijack Islam, and that Turkey will be very much involved. I don't believe that Russia is Gog or Magog.You have to take the entire Olivet Discourse into consideration, including Matthew 24/25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. When you put all three together and consider that Jesus was answering three different questions (listed below), then the comment about "this generation" makes perfect sense. None of the three versions of the Olivet Discourse is comprehensive. They have to be combined together, using their common points to determine Jesus' meaning.

Jesus was discussing three things the Apostles asked Him about:

1. When will the destruction of the temple happen?

2. What will be the sign of your coming?

3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?

The answer is spread out among all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse. The most extensive account of the destruction of the temple is given in Luke 21. However, there is a statement in Matthew 24 that pertains to that destruction - "This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

It is very obvious that the generation that heard Jesus' words is long gone. So whatever He was talking about is something that has to have already happened. What did He discuss in the Olivet Discourse that has already happened? The destruction of the temple. It's not hard to figure out when you're not trying to find some dark, hidden meaning that was never intended. Jesus was giving the most straight-forward answer He could give. He wanted His disciples to understand Him. So for us to attempt to take His straight-forward answer and make it into something so confusing that thousands of people are debating about what it "means" is to rob ourselves of having a crystal-clear understanding of exactly what He said.

My heart's Desire
Oct 8th 2008, 03:19 AM
If I were to make a guess on how long we have left (and that's all it is, a guess, nothing more), I would say the Tribulation is still a good 40-50 years off if not more.

I really don't think it that long off, I think it'd be pressing it, YET....I wouldn't be surprised if it was 40- 50 either. The Word says the God is long suffering. I see the events moonglow sees that are occuring, but still anything could put a stopper in the works prophetically.
Good post LL.

dan
Oct 8th 2008, 04:23 AM
What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

I notice alot of people feel in their hearts the tribulation is near..yet the bible says our hearts are wicked!

I am saying..don't trust your heart!

The definition for the heart in the bible means the mind..our emotions...feelings.

Verse 2
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;

Shaken from your mind ...
This means "thrown off the course of sound reasoning and thinking."

So lets say the end is not near! What are you going to do with the rest of your life?

Do you know what plans God has for you? What work He wants you to be doing? Are you busy doing His work?

The best thing we can do to be ready for the end is be working on our relationship with Him! Everyone does these post to 'get ready' 'be ready'...but never say exactly what that is. I mean exactly how do you get ready for an antichrist?

Matthew 24 says those in Judea are to flee when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place...

Someone on another thread brought up some good points on food shortage...that it would do no good to stock up on food as those hungry mops will be breaking down your door and stealing it..probably over your dead body. Plus not all of us have the money to buy extra food anyway.

Some think going to the woods and living will be a good idea, yet Revelation says a third of the trees and grass will burn and the water will be poison. Mountains leveled, islands disappearing...

Only the wicked seems to be trying to hide in caves.

So how do you 'get ready?'

The bible says nothing about us 'getting ready' or listening to our hearts to know when the time is near.

I would get ready like you would if you knew you only had six months left to live. Get right with God.

God bless

If there is not to be a Tribulation in my lifetime then I am teaching my children the right things anyways.

As the the Words Of Christ say:

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

...And this:

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

...So, I believe that I know how to welcome mobs, God Willing.

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 01:36 PM
If there is not to be a Tribulation in my lifetime then I am teaching my children the right things anyways.

As the the Words Of Christ say:

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

...And this:

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

...So, I believe that I know how to welcome mobs, God Willing.

Sorry but I didn't understand your post..:confused

diffangle
Oct 8th 2008, 01:53 PM
#4)Do to the fact that we ARE the generation of Jesus Christ return also means 1 other thing...
Mat 24:36 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=36&t=KJV#36)But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.




That the Antichrist is here already!He(satan) has to be allowed by God to do the things that was written so long ago,for everything to take place as was said in the bible!So the question remains....If the Antichrist is already here,then who is it?

1Jo 2:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=2&v=18&t=KJV#18)Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 8th 2008, 06:48 PM
ok so the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts is just out of the question???

Literalist-Luke
Oct 8th 2008, 07:08 PM
Mat 24:36 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=36&t=KJV#36)But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

1Jo 2:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=2&v=18&t=KJV#18)Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.First of all, it is true that nobody knew the day or the hour at the time Jesus made that statement, but it isn't necessarily still true. For one thing, Jesus now knows when it will be, even though He specifically said He didn't at the time of the Olivet Discourse. But notice also He said that nobody "knows", present tense. He didn't say nobody would ever know until the moment it happens. So that verse doesn't really apply here.

As for the "antichrists" argument, yes it is true that, technically, the one man sitting in the temple at the mid point of the final seven years is not the "antichrist", speaking from a strictly Biblical sense. That does not negate the accuracy of the sequence of events however.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 8th 2008, 07:10 PM
ok so the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts is just out of the question???That depends on whether what you are "hearing" conforms to the Scriptures.

ananias
Oct 8th 2008, 07:51 PM
Personally,

(1) I don't believe that our Lord will return in my lifetime (if I live a normal lifespan), but I do believe it's highly possible that He will; and

(2) I don't believe that our Lord will return within the next 7-20 years, but I think it's quite possible that He will.

But IMO the Bible says something must happen first:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters," (Rev.17: 1)

"... and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Rev.17: 16)

"... And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev.18: 21)

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication...

... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand," (Rev.14: 6-9)

So the whore is the enemy of the ten kings - but so is the Lamb:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev.17: 12-14)

When I think these things are beginning to be fulfilled, then and only then will I know that the next and final item on the Bible's prohetic menu before the return of Christ, is about to take place:

"The ten kings" are said to hand their power and authority over to "teh beast ascending from the botomless pit" (Rev.17: , 12-13)

And "the beast from the bottomless pit" is said to make war against "the two witnesses" of Jesus, overcome them and kill them (Rev.11: 7-19)

This (if one takes Revelation 11 up as it's written) is the final thing to take place before the resurrection and removal of the saints into heaven, and the sounding of the seventh trumpet:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev.11: 15)

Where/when/how/who I have no idea of - and I don't believe it will occur in my lifetime or that it will occur within the next 7-20 years, but I believe it's highly possible that it will.

ananias

Partaker of Christ
Oct 8th 2008, 08:18 PM
You have to take the entire Olivet Discourse into consideration, including Matthew 24/25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. When you put all three together and consider that Jesus was answering three different questions (listed below), then the comment about "this generation" makes perfect sense. None of the three versions of the Olivet Discourse is comprehensive. They have to be combined together, using their common points to determine Jesus' meaning.

Jesus was discussing three things the Apostles asked Him about:

1. When will the destruction of the temple happen?

2. What will be the sign of your coming?

3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?

The answer is spread out among all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse. The most extensive account of the destruction of the temple is given in Luke 21. However, there is a statement in Matthew 24 that pertains to that destruction - "This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

It is very obvious that the generation that heard Jesus' words is long gone. So whatever He was talking about is something that has to have already happened. What did He discuss in the Olivet Discourse that has already happened? The destruction of the temple. It's not hard to figure out when you're not trying to find some dark, hidden meaning that was never intended. Jesus was giving the most straight-forward answer He could give. He wanted His disciples to understand Him. So for us to attempt to take His straight-forward answer and make it into something so confusing that thousands of people are debating about what it "means" is to rob ourselves of having a crystal-clear understanding of exactly what He said.

Hi again LL!

Yes I fully understand it was a three part question, or three questions.


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

If 'this generation' were those in AD70, then the day and the hour is now known.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 8th 2008, 08:53 PM
If 'this generation' were those in AD70, then the day and the hour is now known.I don't remember if it's come up in this thread or not, but I have actually been arguing for a good while now that the "day and hour" not being known does not necessarily apply anymore. Certainly, at the time Jesus made that statement in the Olivet Discourse it was true at that moment, but for certain Jesus knows the day and hour now, so that statement is already at least partially no longer true. And at no time did Jesus ever say that no man "would know" the day or hour. He was only speaking in the present tense of the moment at which they were discussing it.

ananias
Oct 8th 2008, 09:34 PM
I don't remember if it's come up in this thread or not, but I have actually been arguing for a good while now that the "day and hour" not being known does not necessarily apply anymore. Certainly, at the time Jesus made that statement in the Olivet Discourse it was true at that moment, but for certain Jesus knows the day and hour now, so that statement is already at least partially no longer true. And at no time did Jesus ever say that no man "would know" the day or hour. He was only speaking in the present tense of the moment at which they were discussing it.

Many Christians don't want to believe this, but "the day or the hour that no man knoweth" is translated from a Hebrew expression referring to the 48-hour period between the last day of the Biblical month Elul and the start of the Day of Trumpets (Lev.23: 24), whch is commonly known today as Rosh Hashanah.

This day could not begin until the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon in Jerusalem - which is why Rosh Hashanah began on October 2nd this year, instead of Sept 30th - the new moon was only sighted on 02 Oct. Two watchmen would climb to the highest point of the temple and watch for the appearance of the new moon - one would watch east, and the other west.

The Day of Trumpets is traditionally the day God judges the world, and the days following it are known as "the days of awe" and the day is linked with verses such as Joel 2: 31:

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah." (Joe.2: 31).

The Day of Trumpets is also traditionally the day of the resurrection of the dead, and the beginning of the 7-day marriage consummation period between God and His bride.

"Take it or leave it!", "believe it, or not!"

ananias

moonglow
Oct 8th 2008, 11:06 PM
ok so the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts is just out of the question???

The problem is no one is saying the Holy Spirit is telling them anything...they are saying they just feel this way in their heart...

Now if everyone suddenly starts saying the Holy Spirit is telling them the end is near then we need to take notice of that..but still the thing is I don't see any scripture saying the Holy Spirit will give us advanced warning the tribulation is about to start, or that Christ is about to return. More then likely if people start doing this you will see a major conflict...those saying the Holy Spirit is saying the trib is about to start and others saying the Holy Spirit says it isn't. What is happening there is one of these groups is not really hearing the Holy Spirit but another spirit all together and that is not good. I see this going on all over the net over other subjects...people claiming the Holy Spirit said one thing and others saying the opposite..that is not good at all...and pretty much leads back to where we started...:rolleyes:

God bless

Partaker of Christ
Oct 8th 2008, 11:28 PM
The problem is no one is saying the Holy Spirit is telling them anything...they are saying they just feel this way in their heart...

Now if everyone suddenly starts saying the Holy Spirit is telling them the end is near then we need to take notice of that..but still the thing is I don't see any scripture saying the Holy Spirit will give us advanced warning the tribulation is about to start, or that Christ is about to return. More then likely if people start doing this you will see a major conflict...those saying the Holy Spirit is saying the trib is about to start and others saying the Holy Spirit says it isn't. What is happening there is one of these groups is not really hearing the Holy Spirit but another spirit all together and that is not good. I see this going on all over the net over other subjects...people claiming the Holy Spirit said one thing and others saying the opposite..that is not good at all...and pretty much leads back to where we started...:rolleyes:

God bless

Would that then mean, those of the early church were expressing 'feelings'?

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 12:33 AM
Would that then mean, those of the early church were expressing 'feelings'?



Actually the heart can mean feelings or spirit or mind...depending on the verse..for reference: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on Heart (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4199)

But right now I can't think of any verses where anyone in the early churches used the expression...'I feel in my heart something is about to take place'...if you have an example you can post it. Of course at times the Holy Spirit told people such as Paul for example...things that were going to happen to him. (actually I think it says Jesus Christ told him directly). But as far as I can recall Paul never said he 'felt something would happen to him' in a certain town or whatnot. He was usually directly told what was going to happen to him. This is much, much different then what we are seeing on the board lately with people saying they 'feel' the time is near...

I hope that made sense.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 12:34 AM
Many Christians don't want to believe this, but "the day or the hour that no man knoweth" is translated from a Hebrew expression referring to the 48-hour period between the last day of the Biblical month Elul and the start of the Day of Trumpets (Lev.23: 24), whch is commonly known today as Rosh Hashanah.

This day could not begin until the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon in Jerusalem - which is why Rosh Hashanah began on October 2nd this year, instead of Sept 30th - the new moon was only sighted on 02 Oct. Two watchmen would climb to the highest point of the temple and watch for the appearance of the new moon - one would watch east, and the other west.

The Day of Trumpets is traditionally the day God judges the world, and the days following it are known as "the days of awe" and the day is linked with verses such as Joel 2: 31:

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah." (Joe.2: 31).

The Day of Trumpets is also traditionally the day of the resurrection of the dead, and the beginning of the 7-day marriage consummation period between God and His bride.

"Take it or leave it!", "believe it, or not!"

ananias

That was very interesting! Thanks for posting it...

I think this past New Years for the Jews with everything going on, people were kind of waiting on edge...

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 9th 2008, 04:53 AM
Many Christians don't want to believe this, but "the day or the hour that no man knoweth" is translated from a Hebrew expression referring to the 48-hour period between the last day of the Biblical month Elul and the start of the Day of Trumpets (Lev.23: 24), whch is commonly known today as Rosh Hashanah.

This day could not begin until the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon in Jerusalem - which is why Rosh Hashanah began on October 2nd this year, instead of Sept 30th - the new moon was only sighted on 02 Oct. Two watchmen would climb to the highest point of the temple and watch for the appearance of the new moon - one would watch east, and the other west.

The Day of Trumpets is traditionally the day God judges the world, and the days following it are known as "the days of awe" and the day is linked with verses such as Joel 2: 31:

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah." (Joe.2: 31).

The Day of Trumpets is also traditionally the day of the resurrection of the dead, and the beginning of the 7-day marriage consummation period between God and His bride.

"Take it or leave it!", "believe it, or not!"

ananiasHuh, that throws a whole new, very interesting slant on it. This could actually have some fairly important implications. Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

Joe King
Oct 9th 2008, 05:41 AM
With the world financial markets in disarray, I'd say we are closer than we think. Last year, I thought we were 80-100 years away but the signs are more prevalent with each passing day.

third hero
Oct 9th 2008, 10:11 AM
For the benefit of everyone in this forum, I will only say but a few brief words.

I believe that the Great Tribulation will happen within the next 25 years. (More accurately, within the next 10-20 years).

I believe that the Lord will return in this generation's lifetime. (Although if what I have dreamed is true, it will not come during my lifetime, for I may end up with no head by the time it is all said and done).

That said, I also believe that it is very possible that the Great Tribulation may not happen within this generation's lifetime. (This generation meaning the Gen X generation, from those born after 1960-onward).

In short, Hope for the best, be prepared fro the worst. You can ot go wrong when you hold to this piece of advice.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 02:17 PM
With the world financial markets in disarray, I'd say we are closer than we think. Last year, I thought we were 80-100 years away but the signs are more prevalent with each passing day.

I wonder though if they were saying this same thing during the Great Depression? It wasn't just American's economy that suffered then either...other major world's stock markets were also badly affected and Hitler was forcing a mark on certain people...actually more things were in place then, then they are now! Check this out

1929- 1941 Great depression..food shortages...extreme drought causing dust bowls. The depression had devastating effects both in the developed and developing world. International trade was deeply affected, as were personal incomes, tax revenues, prices, and profits. Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. List of other nations affected:

* 4.1 Australia
* 4.2 Canada
* 4.3 East Asia
* 4.4 France
* 4.5 Germany
* 4.6 Latin America
* 4.7 Netherlands
* 4.8 South Africa
* 4.9 Soviet Union
* 4.10 United Kingdom

1933-1945 Hitler

1939-1945 world world 2 ...nearly every nation in the world was involved in this war. Probably why they called it WORLD war..
The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history....Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed...

Three years later in 1948 Israel becomes a nation...and the day after they did they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries..

It would seems as if a Great Tribulation was certainly going on then Israel becoming a nation again...I would bet alot of Christians probably expected the return of Christ at that point in time...


God bless

mcgyver
Oct 9th 2008, 02:35 PM
Just something I'd like to mention here,

Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.

JMO

Literalist-Luke
Oct 9th 2008, 02:57 PM
Just something I'd like to mention here,

Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.

JMOI will certainly agree that we should all be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, because our lives are but a puff of wind, but immanency is a myth that has no Scriptural foundation.

mcgyver
Oct 9th 2008, 03:06 PM
I will certainly agree that we should all be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, because our lives are but a puff of wind, but immanency is a myth that has no Scriptural foundation.

I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing". :)

Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent". ;)

Literalist-Luke
Oct 9th 2008, 03:24 PM
I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?
Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing". :)

Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent". ;)Jesus gave us a very specific list of signs of His return to watch for. After those signs are fulfilled, then the Rapture is imminent.

Let's try this: Show me one Scripture that proves immanency.

cavscout
Oct 9th 2008, 03:34 PM
I think you have a very valid point Moonglow, but I believe you are pushing what the Lord has laid upon your heart unto others. I believe the uses each of us in a different capacity and there is a separate calling for each of us. Apparently, the Lord has laid upon you to not be concerned with the things that are happening or at least has given you a different perspective on them. That does not mean the what the Lord has laid upon someone else’s heart is wrong or unjustified. Maybe there callings to do just as they are doing and yours is to do just as you are doing.

Do I believe that Chris will return fo his Church? Without a doubt. Is Christ's return, the End Of Days, or the 7 year Tribulation near? I have no clue, but I do believe that things are pointing in that direction. I also believe that things are getting worse and the times in the near future are going to get tough and people will suffer. There are some that say that things have been worse in the past and that the speed at which information travels is the reason it seems worse. I would have to disagree with that, I believe things are worse than they were 10, 25 or 50 years ago. We have just become desensitized to them and the news of 230,000 people being killed in a far off country, or a another homicide or the rape and murder of a child does not affect or comfort zone. So we just pass it off as nothing. You, yourself Moonglow brought up in another post about the ruler of Rome marring a slave boy, having his mother killed and then kicking his wife to death and said there was nothing in current times that would compare to that. Have you ever read or heard the stories of Sodom Hussein’s sons and the pain and death he inflicted? Check it out, it may surprise you. That is just the things you can find without digging very deep. Then you can move on down into the horn of Arica where the number that starve to death on a monthly basis number in the hundreds of thousands. Or one from the personal files, a young boy in Israel who picked up a gift from his front porch only to have it blow up in his face, nearly killing him. Why? Because he believes that Christ is the Son of God.

Your argument has some merit, I won’t argue that point, as think there are some who truly believe they are in God’s will, but they are serving a different master. I also believe there are some that would have the focus taken off of our Lord and onto the times at hand, but if you are true to your faith and you are prepared for the return of the Son of Man, then I think these things cannot and will not distract you from God’s ultimate plan for your life.

I say to everyone, PRAY FERVENTLY that God reveal Himself to you and that you live your life according to God’s will. If you do that and you are not afraid of where the Lord might lead you, then you have nothing o fear of the coming times.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 05:48 PM
I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing". :)

Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent". ;)

I don't think they did actually ..I think what they were expecting was judgment to come and it did. The verses on that get lumped together with the return of Christ and they are actually two seperate things at two seperate times.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 06:07 PM
I think you have a very valid point Moonglow, but I believe you are pushing what the Lord has laid upon your heart unto others. I believe the uses each of us in a different capacity and there is a separate calling for each of us. Apparently, the Lord has laid upon you to not be concerned with the things that are happening or at least has given you a different perspective on them. That does not mean the what the Lord has laid upon someone else’s heart is wrong or unjustified. Maybe there callings to do just as they are doing and yours is to do just as you are doing.

Do I believe that Chris will return fo his Church? Without a doubt. Is Christ's return, the End Of Days, or the 7 year Tribulation near? I have no clue, but I do believe that things are pointing in that direction. I also believe that things are getting worse and the times in the near future are going to get tough and people will suffer. There are some that say that things have been worse in the past and that the speed at which information travels is the reason it seems worse. I would have to disagree with that, I believe things are worse than they were 10, 25 or 50 years ago. We have just become desensitized to them and the news of 230,000 people being killed in a far off country, or a another homicide or the rape and murder of a child does not affect or comfort zone. So we just pass it off as nothing. You, yourself Moonglow brought up in another post about the ruler of Rome marring a slave boy, having his mother killed and then kicking his wife to death and said there was nothing in current times that would compare to that. Have you ever read or heard the stories of Sodom Hussein’s sons and the pain and death he inflicted? Check it out, it may surprise you. That is just the things you can find without digging very deep. Then you can move on down into the horn of Arica where the number that starve to death on a monthly basis number in the hundreds of thousands. Or one from the personal files, a young boy in Israel who picked up a gift from his front porch only to have it blow up in his face, nearly killing him. Why? Because he believes that Christ is the Son of God.

Your argument has some merit, I won’t argue that point, as think there are some who truly believe they are in God’s will, but they are serving a different master. I also believe there are some that would have the focus taken off of our Lord and onto the times at hand, but if you are true to your faith and you are prepared for the return of the Son of Man, then I think these things cannot and will not distract you from God’s ultimate plan for your life.

I say to everyone, PRAY FERVENTLY that God reveal Himself to you and that you live your life according to God’s will. If you do that and you are not afraid of where the Lord might lead you, then you have nothing o fear of the coming times.

You are right..I am pushing people to keep their focus on Christ!

I truly am concerned many aren't...they are keeping their focus on the antichrist instead! With Christ taking second place. So yea I am going to keep pushing that... I don't think you will find any verse in the bible showing I or anyone shouldn't be doing that.

I agree everyone is called to do different things...different works in the kingdom but no one is called to ever, ever put the antichrist first...ever.

As far as my example of Nero is concerned, I guess I didn't make myself clear. Because of him and the rulers before and after him...sexual immorally, idol worshiping, human sacrifice and many other terrible sins were socially acceptable among the common people. It wasn't just one ruler doing terrible things. I have read the news stories on Sodom Hussein’s sons and some of the horrors they committed..we could both list horrible rulers and their children over time in history...but with many like his son's, the common people were not allowed to do the things they did. They didn't say as Nero did...do like me! In fact things were even tighter on the common people to strictly follow their Islamic ways...they didn't get any slack (except for the ones enforcing these under Hussein). Men boy sexual relationships were common and acceptable then! Now in many places its against the law. Prostitution and temple prostitutes were the norm also.

We see Paul in his letters to certain churches addressing how these things are NOT acceptable for Christians to do. Why would he have to point these out and press the issue over and over again? Because these new Christians grew up with those things being common and acceptable being under Roman rule. They thought they were ok to do...they weren't and still aren't.

I heard testimonies of people that lived during Hussein’s time ruling and if anyone even spoke against Hussein they would disappear and the next day their head would be on a pole in their yard as a warning to everyone to not speak against him. Of course you couldn't speak against Nero either or it meant death. But Nero allowed people to do many terrible things as I said..it was considered acceptable and even expected! While most of these dictators throughout history lived one way they expected the common people to live another...

There are those who are watchmen I agree too with that, that keep an eye on the signs of the times but I see them keeping Christ in the forefront and they don't overly focus on the tribulation or AC. I have no problems with them. They take the time to pray for others on the board and in their churches and neighborhoods, to continue their studies on the bible besides just the end times stuff and are much more well rounded in this. My concern is those that have zeroed in on the trib and AC and see nothing else!

God bless

Mograce2U
Oct 9th 2008, 06:40 PM
Just something I'd like to mention here,

Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.




I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing". :)

Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent". ;)
Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.

moonglow
Oct 9th 2008, 08:21 PM
Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.

Amen and amen. I don't think people realize what they are saying when they say the disciples thought Jesus was going to return in their time either. They are calling the false prophets! Or at the very least casting doubt on scripture in those areas...very dangerous thing indeed! Its us that are reading those verses in the wrong light...not them saying something untrue or in ignorance. So its then 'us' that need to re-examine how we are understanding those verses.

But the main point of your post and the most important:

Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him.

Yes our hope is in what He did already!! That is forgotten far too much on the end times form for sure..

God bless

Partaker of Christ
Oct 9th 2008, 10:41 PM
Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.

I have many times seen dark clouds gather, and it has not rained. I have heard thunder, and seen lightning in the sky, and it has not rained.

There has been many false dawns, but you no what?
During these false dawns, a number of folk have come to Christ, and a number of Christians have woken out of there slumber. I even know someone very close to me, who was invited to a 'left behind' showing, and they then got to come to many other meetings, because of that movie. They then gave their life to Christ.
Because that person gave their life to Christ, others also afterwards came to know Him via that person.

Does a watchman discontinue checking every possible sign, because of all the previous false alarms?

The second coming is not the anchor for our hope, but it is the end of our faith.

Joe King
Oct 9th 2008, 10:45 PM
I wonder though if they were saying this same thing during the Great Depression? It wasn't just American's economy that suffered then either...other major world's stock markets were also badly affected and Hitler was forcing a mark on certain people...actually more things were in place then, then they are now! Check this out

1929- 1941 Great depression..food shortages...extreme drought causing dust bowls. The depression had devastating effects both in the developed and developing world. International trade was deeply affected, as were personal incomes, tax revenues, prices, and profits. Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. List of other nations affected:

* 4.1 Australia
* 4.2 Canada
* 4.3 East Asia
* 4.4 France
* 4.5 Germany
* 4.6 Latin America
* 4.7 Netherlands
* 4.8 South Africa
* 4.9 Soviet Union
* 4.10 United Kingdom

1933-1945 Hitler

1939-1945 world world 2 ...nearly every nation in the world was involved in this war. Probably why they called it WORLD war..
The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history....Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed...

Three years later in 1948 Israel becomes a nation...and the day after they did they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries..

It would seems as if a Great Tribulation was certainly going on then Israel becoming a nation again...I would bet alot of Christians probably expected the return of Christ at that point in time...


God bless

People have always been looking for Jesus and hoping for his return, so that is not surprising. Even in the year 1000 they were awaiting Christ's return.

The consolidation of the world markets is definitely something to be watched out for. If someone comes and stabalizes the economies, then he is the one to watch out for.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 9th 2008, 10:51 PM
Amen and amen. I don't think people realize what they are saying when they say the disciples thought Jesus was going to return in their time either. They are calling the false prophets! Or at the very least casting doubt on scripture in those areas...very dangerous thing indeed! Its us that are reading those verses in the wrong light...not them saying something untrue or in ignorance. So its then 'us' that need to re-examine how we are understanding those verses.

But the main point of your post and the most important:


Yes our hope is in what He did already!! That is forgotten far too much on the end times form for sure..

God bless

He is the Alpha and the Omega.
What He has already done is the Alpha of our faith. When He comes again, we will have the Omega of our faith.

quiet dove
Oct 9th 2008, 11:38 PM
I'm not sure why it is assumed that folks in ETC here forget Jesus accomplished work on the cross when all this study of judgment, persecution and wrath would terrify those who don't know or "forgot". Most ETCers march in bravely to any discussion without fear because they understand and have faith in what Christ accomplished and what our promises are.

Merton
Oct 9th 2008, 11:48 PM
The return of fallen Babylon to rule over the world occurs in steps shown in the seals of Rev.ch 6.

The first seal shows the process using religious means, many. (humanism is also a religious endeavour as is spiritualism)

The second seal shows it breaking down to military means.

The third seal shows the economic means

and the fourth seal shows the chaos resulting from all of these failed means.

The fourth seal describes the rule of cruel tyrants over the masses and we should all know about this because of past history and the kinds of things happening in Zimbabwa where the old regimes were kicked out and then blamed for all of the present woes.

It is nothing more than the rise of cruel rulerships who have no regard for God and will think of themselves as being god.

This is all bought about by the spiritual falling away of past institutions of government of both church and state and the proliforation of sin among the populace which actually began when things were relatively peaceful.

When the tyrants finish with punishing the former rulers (of church and of state) then they will seek to go too far . Isaiah ch 10.

We must keep in mind that such tyranical rule does not have to come from somewhere else to where we live.

In fact the great miltary power of the major nations rules that out before the return of Christ because the Bible speaks so often of the combining of those powerful nations into the one unified purpose.

The Bible rules out that Russia will invade America in a surprise attack ( we shall judge angels--a lying spirit has spoken to many people, men like Brugerman, Hagee, Branham, Hinn.)

(an aside- the falling down phenomoma as by Hinn is actually the sign of the presence of the lying spirit of a false prophet and false Christ)

and Islam is no threat of overcoming the west either.

The greatest dangers are all within every country, but all false prophets warn of danger from outside. Christ Himself never did that.

Christ taught submission to God and that God would make even their enemies to be at peace with them, though it all took the shedding of blood to do it, (Their own, not other people's.)


Merton.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 10th 2008, 01:42 AM
Islam is no threat of overcoming the west.The naivete in this statement is astounding.

Merton
Oct 10th 2008, 02:06 AM
The naivete in this statement is astounding.


You can think that, but every false prophet in the country has advised the military conquest of Islam as solving the problem of Islam, without giving attention to the reasons why they have become a problem in the first place. (which intervention is not as mankind so often supposes it will be)

False prophets advise the people to fight by carnal means, and do not identify the sins of the people that they might repent, in order that God would intervene on their behalf.

False prophets are experts on indentifying the sins of their enemies in order to justify their destroying them by carnal means, and thus avoid repenting of their own sins, which is and will destroy themselves.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hag 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of the kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations. And I will overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall come down, each one by the sword of his brother.

Merton

Literalist-Luke
Oct 10th 2008, 02:26 AM
You can think that, but every false prophet in the country has advised the military conquest of Islam as solving the problem of Islam, without giving attention to the reasons why they have become a problem in the first place. (which intervention is not as mankind so often supposes it will be)I do not support military action against Islam. My Bible makes it clear that, at least for seven years, Islam is going to rule the world. There's nothing we can do to stop it. Our only hope is to raise awareness to keep individuals from getting caught in its snare of lies.
False prophets advise the people to fight by carnal means, and do not identify the sins of the people that they might repent, in order that God would intervene on their behalf.I do not advise any fighting against Islam on a worldly level. At best, that would only be a temporary solution. What we really need is for so-called Christians to wake up and realize what's going on.
False prophets are experts on indentifying the sins of their enemies in order to justify their destroying them by carnal means, and thus avoid repenting of their own sins, which is and will destroy themselves.I would point the finger straight at the so-called church for being so fleshly in our modern society and burying our head in the sand to the real problems going on around us, of which Islam is only among the most severe. There are many more, however.

moonglow
Oct 10th 2008, 02:29 AM
I'm not sure why it is assumed that folks in ETC here forget Jesus accomplished work on the cross when all this study of judgment, persecution and wrath would terrify those who don't know or "forgot". Most ETCers march in bravely to any discussion without fear because they understand and have faith in what Christ accomplished and what our promises are.

I know for me its because I see no mention of Christ in far too many of those types of posts of how brave someone will be during a time of persecution. I freely admit I would be a total coward! Any courage I have will have to come from Christ if such a thing were to happen. My concern, as others have said it also their concern, is those that talk very bravely but don't mention Christ or God or even the Holy Spirit getting them through. They talk about how 'they' will survive and the plans 'they' have. Some do say simply they will have to reply totally on the Holy Spirit in times like this and don't say anything else about themselves in how 'they' will handle it. See what I mean? The focus is "I" in these posts and not "God". Its very easy to say how brave we will be while sitting in the comfort our own homes safe and sound (other have mentioned this same thing...easy to say when we are safe and only imaging the worse).

I don't know that I could be brave simply being mugged or going through a break in actually! Those type of things are actually more likely to happen to any of us at any time too...

God bless

moonglow
Oct 10th 2008, 03:11 AM
I think Islam is indeed a huge threat to a great part of the world actually. They are over taking Europe...have converted many in some parts of Africa..some by force. I am hearing about more and more conversions in places I was truly surprised to hear about such as even in Hindu nations. I don't know about China, Russia or Japan though. I do know they really push their literature in prisons...something that appeals especially to some of the more violent inmates those that have a grudge.

In the middle east they teach their children to hate us and the Jews and the Christians everywhere and teach them to kill...even killing themselves in the process. CNN is constantly having news articles about the things going on more indepth with especially the women there. They had something on there the other day about wives setting themselves on fire just to avoid being abused by their husbands...truly ghastly things going on with them.

I will admit the idea of having to deal with these extremist terrifies me. I was very foolish a few years ago when they were doing their horrible beheadings and hunted down the video of that one man they beheaded. I don't think I will ever forget his screams. While I couldn't see much, I do know his neck was sawed off. People think being beheaded it quick and nearly painless..not the way they go about it! you would think they were just cutting up a deer or something..but these are human beings!

And I saw a video of them having a young boy..maybe my son's age, behead a man. I simply cannot image...don't want to image this stuff! Its truly frightening. I think they bear watching for sure. Their numbers are increasing quite rapidly...many through their high birth rate...but also through conversation..willing or not...

In some parts of Africa they are kidnapping families...crucifying the men, raping and beating the women...forcing the women and children to take Islamic names and pray to Allah....

On youtube for instance, they have video's all over the place attacking and denouncing our faith and Jesus. They make it so comments have to be approved before they appear...so any rebuttals from Christians aren't allowed...believe me I tried. They have a video using barbie dolls to make fun of David Pearls beheading... :(

Whether they play a part in the end time events I don't know...I don't see how they couldn't though as this is such a large group of people...

I also realize not all Muslims live or believe as these do in the middle east and elsewhere and do get along peacefully with others. Especially in the US...but consider this. I try to teach my son to get along with and be respectful to everyone, regardless of their race, or religion .. he tried visiting with a muslim student a couple of years ago during lunch time at school and this boy told him, he hated all Christians. My son was just in the fourth grade then. It starts early. We teach our children the way of the Lord..to train them up in the way of the Lord...which means to love your neighbor and God of course....they are also teaching their children early too and its quite the opposite of what we are teaching ours...they god they serve seems to have little to do with love.

God bless

Roelof
Oct 10th 2008, 09:19 AM
...they are also teaching their children early too and its quite the opposite of what we are teaching ours...they god they serve seems to have little to do with love.
God bless

This is really sad

mcgyver
Oct 10th 2008, 12:21 PM
Hey LL, I'd have gotten back yesterday...but I had oral surgery in the afternoon...Bear with me this a.m....I feel like I've been worked over with a rifle butt...


They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?

A moot point, my friend.

My point was that the early church lived as if Christ would return in their lifetimes, and this ingrained within them an urgency to both live for, and serve Him wholeheartedly.


Jesus gave us a very specific list of signs of His return to watch for. After those signs are fulfilled, then the Rapture is imminent.

Let's try this: Show me one Scripture that proves immanency.

Why? As your mind is already made up...would not any scripture or exegesis thereof simply be reinterpreted in accordance with your own bias?

(I don't mean that in an insulting way...and if it came out wrong...sorry...but it is a legitimate question)

mcgyver
Oct 10th 2008, 01:21 PM
My reasoning behind that is because the Antichrist is going to be Islamic, Babylon is going to have to rise again to become a world-class city, plus the Antichrist is going to be from the region around Turkey. Babylon and Turkey will both have to rise for the Tribulation to get underway.

Explain to me your reasoning behind Babylon rising as a great city again...when the Lord said it would never be rebuilt? Who knows...ya may larn me sumpin' :lol:

Isaiah 13:18-22

Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there. 22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged.”


Isaiah 14:22-23


For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts, And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant, And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 “ I will also make it a possession for the porcupine, And marshes of muddy water; I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.


Now, it could be argued that these speak of future events...except the prophecy (and that in Jer 51) has already been fulfilled.


I don't know if you've ever been to the area, or even seen pictures of the area...but the site of Babylon (which was so fertile and green that the historian Herodotus refused to write publicly about it lest people think he was insane) is now nothing more than a trackless waste of desert. The only thing that give any evidence that a great city once stood are the heaps of ruins and rubbish that litter the site.


Therefore, for Babylon to be (literally) rebuilt as a city, God must recant His promise; is that not correct?


Also is the problem with Revelation 18:17-18:


For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’


Babylon is located well inland...in fact is land-locked...so how could sailors on the sea see the smoke of her burning?



What is your explanation?

wesand24
Oct 15th 2008, 02:02 AM
Our hearts are only desperately wicked until we are born again, at that moment we are given a new heart that we are to guard at all cost(Proverbs 4:23). If you are are in Christ your wicked heart has passed away and behold all things are new.

Mograce2U
Oct 15th 2008, 02:46 AM
Hi Mcgyver,
You didn't ask me but I have an opinion! The key I think lies in the sybolizing of using Bablyon, Sodom and Egypt - even Gog & Magog to refer to earthly Jerusalem. Israel was warned by the judgments meted out to their ancient enemies, that if she followed them in suit - those things would also come upon her. See Deut 32 as one example.

Mograce2U
Oct 15th 2008, 02:50 AM
Literalist-Luke,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyver
I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

Literalist-Luke: They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?Are you really prepared to call the apostles of the Lord false prophets? Christ Himself said that generation which witnessed His FIRST coming would see all these things come to pass. So apparently Christ is in question too in your mind? Somehow I doubt that is the position you want to hold.

Dani H
Oct 15th 2008, 03:56 AM
The naivete in this statement is astounding.

We know what the intentions are.

But, we also know what'll happen if the watchmen are doing their job.

Since I'm keeping you company in the pit, join me in the gap, eh?

:)

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 07:28 AM
Are you really prepared to call the apostles of the Lord false prophets? Christ Himself said that generation which witnessed His FIRST coming would see all these things come to pass. So apparently Christ is in question too in your mind? Somehow I doubt that is the position you want to hold.Calm down, you're not even aware of my understanding of the Olivet Discourse.

Paul and the apostles never once said anywhere in the Bible that Jesus would be back within their lifetime. That would be the only thing that would have made them false prophets, for such a statement to have made it into the Scriptures. If they expressed that opinion on their own to people who they were acquainted with, that does not constitute false prophecy. It only constitutes a plain, simple mistake. It's nothing to get in a huff over.

When Jesus said that generation would not pass away, He was referring to the events of 70 AD. You have to take the entire Olivet Discourse into consideration. It's spread out over Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Without all three together, you're not getting the full picture. Then, you have to join the common connecting points, starting with the disciples' questions at the beginning of Matthew 24, and assemble it into a comprehensive whole with the questions being answered in order. Jesus did not attempt to make it mysterious or confusing. It's a very straight forward answer to the disciples three questions. The reason so many people find it confusing is because they usually only read one account of the Olivet Discourse and consequently only get a partial answer.


As your mind is already made up...would not any scripture or exegesis thereof simply be reinterpreted in accordance with your own bias?

(I don't mean that in an insulting way...and if it came out wrong...sorry...but it is a legitimate question)No problem, it's a good question. You probably aren't aware that I used to be a Pre-Tribber. In fact, I was one of the most stubborn, die-hard Pre-Tribbers you could ever meet. I was on a mission to show all those Post-Tribbers, Mid-Tribbers, and Pre-Wrathers just how horribly wrong they were and get them to correct the errors of their ways.

But, even more important than that was for me to remain absolutely faithful to the Word of God. I mean, if my position regarding the Rapture was wrong, wouldn't it behoove me to correct it instead of going around stubbornly clinging to a lie? But I thought Pre-Trib was the Truth (with a capital "T"), so I was blissfully happy. Then one day, a post-tribber asked me to provide one verse that proved immanency. I rubbed my hands in glee, rolled up my sleeves and prepared to provide an avalanche of verses that would blow him away.

When I started going to the verses that I was familiar with, it occurred to me that, while there could be an interpretation of immanency taken from them, they wouldn't really prove it to the satisfaction of somebody with an alternative point of view. No problem, I'll just research it on the internet and find some more verses, I thought. The more I looked, the more I found that, sure, we're supposed to be watching for the Return of Christ. But nowhere could I find anything that specifically said the Rapture is the next item on the agenda.

That threw me off, and I decided I needed to reconsider the whole issue, if for no other reason than to simply shore up my position on Pre-Trib. The more I looked, the more I started finding where a number of "proofs" for Pre-Trib are actually no proof at all, and in fact, some of the pet arguments put forth are blatantly unBiblical.

But I refused to accept classical Post-Trib or the other traditional positions because I had already proved them wrong in my mind, so it occurred to me next that, "Maybe it's something that nobody's gotten right." So I started digging through prophecy passages all over the Bible. This was around March of 2007. I spent a whole year honestly not knowing in my mind when the Rapture would be, because every position I came up with, including the traditional four, had at least one problem with it that eliminated it as a candidate. I was a real pro at shooting down everybody else's position, but I couldn't even decide on my own.

By spring of this year, I was leaning toward Post-Trib and terrified at the possibility it might be true. But the one thing that kept me from adopting was the old argument, "Who re-populates the Millennium?" Since I was not aware of a satisfactory answer that Post-Trib could provide, I continued rejecting Post-Trib. Then I made a discovery that changed everything.

It was these verses right here:

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Most Pre-tribbers would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do pre-tribbers wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium? I didn’t think so.

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors? We know that Jesus is going to destroy the ones with the Mark at the 2nd Coming, so who are these people?

So the answer to the problem with Post-Trib and repopulating the Millennium is that the Millennium will be repopulated with the descendants of lost survivors of the Day of the Lord.

When I discovered that, I realized that Post-Trib has to be true.

I have to tell you something else, and I really, really pray this doesn't sound arrogant, because I really don't want to seem proud or boastful here. I mean, it took me over a year to figure this out, so what right do I have to be arrogant about this?

But after I realized the Rapture is Post-Trib and started re-examining prophecy passages from that point of view, whole sections of the Bible that had previously not made complete sense suddenly because as clear as reading today's newspaper. Even the history of salvation started becoming clear in a new way that had never been there before. It was like getting that one piece of the puzzle in the right place made the whole puzzle suddenly just come together.

The reason I'm boring you with all this is simply because I want you to understand that if you can show me a passage that really does prove immanency, I'm certainly willing to consider it. It's just that I've been in your exact same spot and tried to take on the challenge. I wasn't able to do it. So see if you can succeed where I failed. But before you accuse me of having my mind made up, make sure you're not guilty of the same thing. Try to consider it with an open mind yourself. I spent a whole year doing that very thing.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 07:42 AM
Explain to me your reasoning behind Babylon rising as a great city again...when the Lord said it would never be rebuilt? Who knows...ya may larn me sumpin' :lol:

Isaiah 13:18-22

Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there. 22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged.”

Isaiah 14:22-23

For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts, And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant, And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 “ I will also make it a possession for the porcupine, And marshes of muddy water; I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.

Now, it could be argued that these speak of future events...except the prophecy (and that in Jer 51) has already been fulfilled.


I don't know if you've ever been to the area, or even seen pictures of the area...but the site of Babylon (which was so fertile and green that the historian Herodotus refused to write publicly about it lest people think he was insane) is now nothing more than a trackless waste of desert. The only thing that give any evidence that a great city once stood are the heaps of ruins and rubbish that litter the site.

Therefore, for Babylon to be (literally) rebuilt as a city, God must recant His promise; is that not correct?

Also is the problem with Revelation 18:17-18:

For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

Babylon is located well inland...in fact is land-locked...so how could sailors on the sea see the smoke of her burning?

What is your explanation?My explanation is very simple. When the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon the night Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall in Daniel 5, they did it without firing one shot. The only person who died was King Belshazzar. The Medes/Persians snuck in through the water inlets in the city's sewer system and took the entire city by surprise, because of the drunken revelry of the king's party that we read about in Daniel 5.

The city of Babylon has NEVER been destroyed. It is still there at this very moment. When Saddam Hussein went into Babylon during his regime to start rebuilding it (the idea being that he was going to be the next Nebuchadnezzar), he was able to hire people who were already living there to start the project. The city has never been abandoned in the way the prophetic passages describe. The city has indeed deteriorated over the centuries, but it has never been violently overthrown in the manner described in the Bible passages you bring up. Those thing still have yet to occur. That's why I'm looking for Babylon to rise again. I'm open to the possibility that it might be somewhere else in the area, like maybe Dubai, but I'm pretty leery about that, since the Bible is so emphatic about "Babylon". I mean, God had Isaiah specify the name "Cyrus" as the person who would liberate His people from the Babylonian exile, so couldn't God have also had somebody specify the name "Dubai" if He needed? So I tend to think the actual city of Babylon will rise again.

And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.

moonglow
Oct 15th 2008, 02:46 PM
My explanation is very simple. When the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon the night Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall in Daniel 5, they did it without firing one shot. The only person who died was King Belshazzar. The Medes/Persians snuck in through the water inlets in the city's sewer system and took the entire city by surprise, because of the drunken revelry of the king's party that we read about in Daniel 5.

The city of Babylon has NEVER been destroyed. It is still there at this very moment. When Saddam Hussein went into Babylon during his regime to start rebuilding it (the idea being that he was going to be the next Nebuchadnezzar), he was able to hire people who were already living there to start the project. The city has never been abandoned in the way the prophetic passages describe. The city has indeed deteriorated over the centuries, but it has never been violently overthrown in the manner described in the Bible passages you bring up. Those thing still have yet to occur. That's why I'm looking for Babylon to rise again. I'm open to the possibility that it might be somewhere else in the area, like maybe Dubai, but I'm pretty leery about that, since the Bible is so emphatic about "Babylon". I mean, God had Isaiah specify the name "Cyrus" as the person who would liberate His people from the Babylonian exile, so couldn't God have also had somebody specify the name "Dubai" if He needed? So I tend to think the actual city of Babylon will rise again.

And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.

Oh I remember the news stories about this! It was really creepy too what he was doing.

Here is a photo of King Nebuchadnezzar's Palace in ancient Babylon
http://architecture.about.com/od/themiddleeast/ig/Iraq-Photos/Nebuchandezzar-s-Palace.htm

Marines approach the ancient city of Babylon
http://architecture.about.com/od/themiddleeast/ig/Iraq-Photos/Marines-in-Babylon.htm

Here is the story about Hussein building a new palace to himself there:
Saddam's Babylonian Palace (http://architecture.about.com/cs/countriescultures/a/saddamspalace.htm)

Seems likes something spooked Hussein off though from it but I can't remember what is was that happened...and no not the war. Something happened there that made him run scared....wish I could remember. But yes people still live there.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 15th 2008, 02:49 PM
Our hearts are only desperately wicked until we are born again, at that moment we are given a new heart that we are to guard at all cost(Proverbs 4:23). If you are are in Christ your wicked heart has passed away and behold all things are new.

Proverbs 4:23

23 Guard your heart above all else,
for it determines the course of your life.

Ok..I don't get what you mean with this verse...sorry...


God bless

vinsight4u8
Oct 15th 2008, 03:08 PM
Shinar was to rebuild in the endtimes!

Iraq exists today!

so does Israel

so do the Palestinians

so does Egypt

slightlypuzzled
Oct 15th 2008, 03:35 PM
Shinar was to rebuild in the endtimes!

Iraq exists today!

so does Israel

so do the Palestinians

so does Egypt

Now I am confused, what does Prov. 4:23 have to do with the above posting. Are you claiming that the 'new heart' gives us a prophetic insight that must lead us to agree with you?????

Mograce2U
Oct 15th 2008, 07:02 PM
And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.You might want to take note that apostate Israel is likened to Babylon in scripture, then you might be able to see who Babylon really is in our day - earthly Jerusalem.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 08:51 PM
You might want to take note that apostate Israel is likened to Babylon in scripture, then you might be able to see who Babylon really is in our day - earthly Jerusalem.I've tried arguing with Jerusalem=Babylon people before and wasted my time. No more.

sunsetssplendor
Oct 16th 2008, 05:54 PM
I always leave these threads more confused but thanks for that statement your Grandma had hanging up Moon. I've copied it and plan to print it out as a reminder to myself.
Peace.