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View Full Version : Who ascends from the bottomless pit BEFORE Christ returns?



ross3421
Oct 7th 2008, 03:20 PM
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


What entity is able to ascend from the pit? Likewise ask yourself who could descend from above. Man? No. Then who could it be?????

Satan.


Mark.

Elouise
Oct 7th 2008, 03:42 PM
I think it may be something that merges; the bible speaks of satan as 'an adversary' but what if such adversaries were to merge together.
[Hypothetical and supposition based on my theological understanding]

John146
Oct 7th 2008, 04:09 PM
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


What entity is able to ascend from the pit? Likewise ask yourself who could descend from above. Man? No. Then who could it be?????

Satan.


Mark.Actually, the beast is differentiated from Satan in Revelation. They're not the same.

Rev 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Why would it say they worshiped the dragon...and they worshiped the beast? If the dragon and the beast were the same, wouldn't that be a bit redundant? Of course it would.

It says Satan gave power to the beast. Is that saying Satan gave power to himself? Why would he gave power to himself when he'd already have it? Again, that would be redundant and wouldn't make sense.

We know from Rev 20 that the bottomless pit is a place that Satan can be cast into. We know from Rev 9 that it is a place where demons (symbolically called locusts) ascend out of and where the angel who is the king of the fallen angels resides (Rev 9:11). Who else is the king of the angels but Satan? The fallen angels are Satan's angels (Rev 12:7-9).

I am in agreement with you on one thing: it can't be a man. The bottomless pit is portrayed as a spiritual dwelling place. Therefore, the beast that ascends out of the pit is spiritual in nature. I believe it symbolically refers to Satan's kingdom of spiritual darkness, which would include Satan's angels. When we look at Daniel 7 we see that beasts refer to both kingdoms and their kings. The beast of Revelation is Satan's kingdom of which he is the king. Notice that both the dragon and the beast have seven heads and ten horns. That shows that it's Satan's kingdom.

I believe Satan and his beast kingdom will ascend to power out of the bottomless pit, which is not a physical place. He will again be in full power of his kingdom without any restraints, such as the preaching of the gospel and the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, holding him back. I believe this occurs at the time of the fifth trumpet, according to Revelation 9. I believe that is when Satan, his angels and his evil kingdom are loosed and allowed to go into the nations unrestrained in an attempt to deceive the world into uniting against Christ and the church.

ross3421
Oct 7th 2008, 04:31 PM
Actually, the beast is differentiated from Satan in Revelation. They're not the same.

Rev 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Why would it say they worshiped the dragon...and they worshiped the beast? If the dragon and the beast were the same, wouldn't that be a bit redundant? Of course it would.

It says Satan gave power to the beast. Is that saying Satan gave power to himself? Why would he gave power to himself when he'd already have it? Again, that would be redundant and wouldn't make sense.

It makes sense when you understand they are one in the same. Think of it as those on earth whom cannot understand the trinity..........


I believe Satan and his beast kingdom will ascend to power out of the bottomless pit, which is not a physical place. He will again be in full power of his kingdom without any restraints, such as the preaching of the gospel and the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, holding him back. I believe this occurs at the time of the fifth trumpet, according to Revelation 9. I believe that is when Satan, his angels and his evil kingdom are loosed and allowed to go into the nations unrestrained in an attempt to deceive the world into uniting against Christ and the church.

I agree, notice that you are saying that Satan himself comes up from the bottomless pit at this point.

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

It shows there is more than a kindom which arises. There is a king also. The king of the pit.


We know from Rev 20 that the bottomless pit is a place that Satan can be cast into. We know from Rev 9 that it is a place where demons (symbolically called locusts) ascend out of and where the angel who is the king of the fallen angels resides (Rev 9:11). Who else is the king of the angels but Satan? The fallen angels are Satan's angels (Rev 12:7-9).

This is my point of this thread. Someone ascends from the pit prior to Christ's return and I contend this is Satan himself thus does he ascend from the pit twice? Cast into the pit twice?

John146
Oct 7th 2008, 04:42 PM
It makes sense when you understand they are one in the same. Think of it as those on earth whom cannot understand the trinity.......... I don't see that. There would be no point of saying that the dragon gives his power to the beast if he is the beast. That would be pointless and redundant.

Are you trying to say you believe that there is more than one person of Satan in a similar way that there is three persons in one God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)? If so, how can that be?


I agree, notice that you are saying that Satan himself come up from the bottomless pit at this point. I agree.But not just him. His beast kingdom as well, which includes his angels.


This is my point of this thread. Someone ascends from the pit prior to Christ's return and I contend this is Satan himself thus does he ascend from the pit twice? Cast into the pit twice?But it's not just Satan who is portrayed as ascending out of the pit in Revelation 9. It also describes locusts, which are symbolic for demons. And, no, he wouldn't be cast into the pit twice. I believe he was cast into the pit when Christ defeated him at the cross.

But, again, the bottomless pit should not be looked at as a literal physical place with walls that can prevent any activity by those who are in it. Spiritual beings can't be physically restrained. It's spiritual and symbolically represents a state of being restrained, which is why Rev 20 speaks of him having a great chain placed on him. It's not a literal physical chain. Similar to what it says in Jude about the fallen angels being in chains reserved for judgment. Obviously, that isn't referring to literal chains that prevent them from any activity.

ross3421
Oct 7th 2008, 05:50 PM
I don't see that. There would be no point of saying that the dragon gives his power to the beast if he is the beast. That would be pointless and redundant.

Satan (Perdition) giving power to the son of perdition.


Are you trying to say you believe that there is more than one person of Satan in a similar way that there is three persons in one God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)? If so, how can that be?

Satan
Son of perition
Spirit of antichrist

The big difference is that the "son" is not Satan himself however the son will be indwelled by Satan at a point whereby then become one. Neither is the spirit Satan himself but there are angels which do his bidding.


But, again, the bottomless pit should not be looked at as a literal physical place with walls that can prevent any activity by those who are in it. Spiritual beings can't be physically restrained. It's spiritual and symbolically represents a state of being restrained, which is why Rev 20 speaks of him having a great chain placed on him. It's not a literal physical chain. Similar to what it says in Jude about the fallen angels being in chains reserved for judgment. Obviously, that isn't referring to literal chains that prevent them from any activity.

Bottomless pit is a physical place as is heaven. Spiritual beings can be restrained in the bottomless pit. Does this angel just have a symbolic chain in his hand?

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Mark

aceinthehouse
Oct 7th 2008, 05:54 PM
Well...one thing is for sure and should clear up the "the antichrist is an idea" theme I've seen around here...

your post of the Beast" being referred to as HIM,speaks of an individual and not some idea or religious cult,that some on this board seem to believe...(so that knocks that idea out the window imo)

Now the Dragon could be a another person or the same person as the Beast(antichrist beast and dragon as one) or since the dragon give's it's power to the beast, could be the false prophet giving it's power to the beast..(his support for him)?

OR...maybe the dragon which speaks of "speaks as a dragon" could be a following or group of people or following...?and that these people give their power to the beast...That could be a governmentship...?

Or maybe the Dragon is Satan himself and he decides to give his power to the Antichrist(Beast)...Which would transform the MAN to a powerful beast or Antichrist...

Simular to like a spirit of the beast inside a man...Like the Exorcist,but more contained and not spitting up puke on the pulpit...

So in a theory...The Dragon and Beast would really be one anyways...

John146
Oct 7th 2008, 06:01 PM
Satan (Perdition) giving power to the son of perdition.



Satan
Son of perition
Spirit of antichrist

The big difference is that the "son" is not Satan himself however the son will be indwelled by Satan at a point whereby then become one.

MarkSo now you're saying that the beast is the son of perdition and is not Satan himself, despite saying that before. You are trying to say the son of perdition/beast refers to a man that will supposedly be indwelt by Satan and when that happens it could be said that the son of perdition/Satan are one being?

Sorry, but this seems quite far fetched. We know that Satan indwelt Judas Iscariot. Does this mean Judas Iscariot was Satan at that point? No. They were still two separate beings.


Bottomless pit is a physical place as is heaven. Spiritual beings can be restrained in the bottomless pit. Does this angel just have a symbolic chain in his hand?

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

MarkYes, it's symbolic. Angels don't have physical hands with which to hold physical chains. They are spirit beings.

ross3421
Oct 7th 2008, 06:03 PM
Or maybe the Dragon is Satan himself and he decides to give his power to the Antichrist(Beast)...Which would transform the MAN to a powerful beast or Antichrist...

Simular to like a spirit of the beast inside a man...Like the Exorcist,but more contained and not spitting up puke on the pulpit...

So in a theory...The Dragon and Beast would really be one anyways...

This is what I believe scripture is telling us........ Thanks.

ross3421
Oct 7th 2008, 06:10 PM
So now you're saying that the beast is the son of perdition and is not Satan himself, despite saying that before. You are trying to say the son of perdition/beast refers to a man that will supposedly be indwelt by Satan and when that happens it could be said that the son of perdition/Satan are one being?

They are one in union at the point of the indwelling but yes still two seperate individuals. This is what I meant by saying "one in the same (body)"


Sorry, but this seems quite far fetched. We know that Satan indwelt Judas Iscariot. Does this mean Judas Iscariot was Satan at that point? No. They were still two separate beings.

Same as above.


Yes, it's symbolic. Angels don't have physical hands with which to hold physical chains. They are spirit beings.

How do you know angels do not have hands? scipture states angels are physical beings with bodies.

Mark

third hero
Oct 7th 2008, 06:13 PM
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Revelation 17:8-11


Now, we have several examples of a certain Beast that comes out of the abyss, aka the bottomless pit. In order to understand who rises out of the bottomless pit, we have to take in the whole scripture regarding the one who rises from the abyss. We see here that the Beast, who was identified earlier in scripture as the one that coes out of the sea, who is given the power and authority of the Dragon. According to these scriptures, he is the one who, by the time John wrote the Book, was dead, Yet, he will come up out of the abyss, and will be sent to perdition.

IN this case, scripture should interpret scripture. The Beast is mentioned a few times in Revelation, starting at chapter 11. From there, he wages war against the saints. Finally, he is defeated, and thrown alive in into the Lake. Therefore, just bey reading the scriptures concerning him, we must conclude that the Beast in all of those scriptures are in fact the same person, the one whom gives the second beast his power, who himself was given power to by the Dragon, (who is identified in chapter 20 as Satan), who is the one who will ascend from the bottomless pit to meet his fate in chapter 19.

No figurating required.

John146
Oct 7th 2008, 06:17 PM
Well...one thing is for sure and should clear up the "the antichrist is an idea" theme I've seen around here...

your post of the Beast" being referred to as HIM,speaks of an individual and not some idea or religious cult,that some on this board seem to believe...(so that knocks that idea out the window imo)Not so fast.

Daniel 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Also, when the beast is translated as "him" or "he" that doesn't mean it's the best translation. Here is part of Rev 13 in Young's Literal Translation:

Rev 13
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking,
2and the beast that I saw was like to a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion, and the dragon did give to it his power, and his throne, and great authority.
3And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,
4and they did bow before the dragon who did give authority to the beast, and they did bow before the beast, saying, `Who like to the beast? who is able to war with it?'
5And there was given to it a mouth speaking great things, and evil-speakings, and there was given to it authority to make war forty-two months,
6and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,
7and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.
8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
9if any one hath an ear -- let him hear:
10if any one a captivity doth gather, into captivity he doth go away; if any one by sword doth kill, it behoveth him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
11And I saw another beast coming up out of the land, and it had two horns, like a lamb, and it was speaking as a dragon,

The reason why you can find translations that translate the word as both "his" and "its" and "he" and "it" is because the Greek word that is translated as "his" or "its" is [I]'autos' (Strong's 846).

Here are the definitions for that word:

1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same

So, as you can see, the word does not have to mean "he" or "his".