PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Days of Noah



DIZZY
Oct 9th 2008, 04:14 AM
I was just writing a note to another member here on this post. Discussing the end times and Satan being cast out of heaven and something accured to me. At the time of the flood the earth opened up and spewed out water and the heavens opened up and rain was poured out upon the earth. In the end times the earth will spew out something more sinister and the heavens will pour down something more sinister.

Revelation 9:1-3
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


What is released out of this pit so as to make the sun dark? Demons were released millions of them. Demons now walk the earth not just a few millions and they have power to harm man but not take their life, just like Satan had the power to harm Job but not take his life.

Then the heavens spewed out its sinister rain. It rained down Satan and the rest of his demons, no longer could Satan enter heaven to accuse the brethren for there was no place found for him in heaven.

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Now we have millions upon millions of demons on the earth causing havoc. I am glad I will not be here at that time.

larry2
Oct 9th 2008, 05:27 AM
Amen. Not many realize the relevance of the verses in Revelation Chapter 12.

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 01:26 PM
I am wondering if cern's large collider may be the key to unlocking this pit.

Anyone ever see their logo? It is most curious.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 06:11 PM
Quoting Dizzy - What is released out of this pit so as to make the sun dark? Demons were released millions of them. Demons now walk the earth not just a few millions and they have power to harm man but not take their life, just like Satan had the power to harm Job but not take his life.

I sure like this comparison - thanks

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2008, 10:36 PM
I am wondering if cern's large collider may be the key to unlocking this pit.

Anyone ever see their logo? It is most curious.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

I don't think so, because what unlocks the pit comes from heaven not from within the earth.

helios
Oct 11th 2008, 02:43 AM
I am wondering if cern's large collider may be the key to unlocking this pit.

Anyone ever see their logo? It is most curious.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg


Nothing really stands out about that logo.

quiet dove
Oct 11th 2008, 03:38 PM
Nothing really stands out about that logo.

Maybe you need to take another look? :D

Rookie78
Oct 11th 2008, 04:28 PM
Colossians 1:17 says that He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.

The Cern experiment is to find out what holds things together (protons in the nuclei of atoms). Also it is to find out what gives the elementary particles mass. Protons are all +positively charged which means that they should push each other apart, but they don't!

Maybe forcing these particles apart opens a new dimension that lets something sinister into this world. Or maybe I just watch too much sci-fi. :)

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 04:35 PM
I am wondering if cern's large collider may be the key to unlocking this pit.

Anyone ever see their logo? It is most curious.


http://sdu.ictp.it/openaccess/img/cern_logo.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

*gulp* Thanks for pointing that out Rookie. Scary!!! (it's triple [or quadruple] sixes btw)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

Merton
Oct 12th 2008, 01:08 AM
I was just writing a note to another member here on this post. Discussing the end times and Satan being cast out of heaven and something accured to me. At the time of the flood the earth opened up and spewed out water and the heavens opened up and rain was poured out upon the earth. In the end times the earth will spew out something more sinister and the heavens will pour down something more sinister.

There is nothing sinister in Heaven and never ever was--

Mat 6:9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.


Revelation 9:1-3

1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


What is released out of this pit so as to make the sun dark? Demons were released millions of them. Demons now walk the earth not just a few millions and they have power to harm man but not take their life, just like Satan had the power to harm Job but not take his life.

There are no demons to be released from the pit, but restraint of the wickedness of certain ungodly men can be removed, so that the punishment and destruction of the disobedient who claim to know better can begin.


Then the heavens spewed out its sinister rain. It rained down Satan and the rest of his demons, no longer could Satan enter heaven to accuse the brethren for there was no place found for him in heaven.

The only way that satan accuses the brethren before God is when the believers sin willingly and therefore invite satan to be among them when they present themselves to God in their assemblies. (as in Job ch 1.)




Revelation 12:7-12

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Now we have millions upon millions of demons on the earth causing havoc. I am glad I will not be here at that time.

Only if you should die before this occurs will you not see the day of it, for these live who overcome satan through the blood of the Lamb, the word of testimony , and not loving ones life even to death.

If we reflect on the events of the early church then we will recognize that this has occurred in the past, and also throughout the world since in various places, even is a message to ones personal situation, but to occur in a major way in the end.

The "heaven" in the verses means in the spiritual realms on earth and is not speaking of The Heaven where Christ now resides bodily with God.


Merton.

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 06:09 AM
I don't think so, because what unlocks the pit comes from heaven not from within the earth.

I do not think Satan unlocks the pit? This would mean the angel of the lord hands them over to him..........

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Satan is already in the pit when it is being unlocked.

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Remember these are God's plagues being unleashed.......I do not think Satan would cause plagues upon his own kingdom.


Mark

DIZZY
Oct 13th 2008, 12:03 PM
There is nothing sinister in Heaven and never ever was--

Mat 6:9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.



There are no demons to be released from the pit, but restraint of the wickedness of certain ungodly men can be removed, so that the punishment and destruction of the disobedient who claim to know better can begin.



The only way that satan accuses the brethren before God is when the believers sin willingly and therefore invite satan to be among them when they present themselves to God in their assemblies. (as in Job ch 1.)





Only if you should die before this occurs will you not see the day of it, for these live who overcome satan through the blood of the Lamb, the word of testimony , and not loving ones life even to death.

If we reflect on the events of the early church then we will recognize that this has occurred in the past, and also throughout the world since in various places, even is a message to ones personal situation, but to occur in a major way in the end.

The "heaven" in the verses means in the spiritual realms on earth and is not speaking of The Heaven where Christ now resides bodily with God.


Merton.

If there are no demon in the pit, then what spirits are these.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 01:22 PM
*gulp* Thanks for pointing that out Rookie. Scary!!! (it's triple [or quadruple] sixes btw)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/CERN_logo.svg

Only if you re-arrange it, add to it, subtract from it, and basically do everything in your power to interpret it like that.

A six looks like this: " 6 "

If you turn it upside down, its not an "upside down six", its a 9. If you lay it on its side, its not a six, its a circle with a tail.
If you draw a circle and add a bunch of trails, you aren't making "a bunch of sixes", you're just drawing a single circle with a bunch of trails.

And even if we do accept wild interpretations of the image in such a manner, I count no less than FIVE 6's if we allow one transformation per trailing line.

So just so I'm sure... is the number of the beast 666, or is it any weird iteration of "6" we see, or sorta see, or don't see at all?

DIZZY
Oct 19th 2008, 04:41 AM
I do not think Satan unlocks the pit? This would mean the angel of the lord hands them over to him..........

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Satan is already in the pit when it is being unlocked.

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Remember these are God's plagues being unleashed.......I do not think Satan would cause plagues upon his own kingdom.


Mark

Hi Mark,
What makes you say Satan is already in the pit. The bible tells us he roams about ready to devour us and reports before God and accuses the brethren day and night.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Satan is cast down to the earth here, not into a pit of any sort and he can not be in two places at once.

Another verse tells us that Satan is not bound until the Lord returns for the 1000 year reign.

Revelation 20:1-3
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Veretax
Oct 19th 2008, 11:21 AM
I doubt that this smoke is in fact "Demons" or merely describing a the consequences of this star's impact with earth.

Also, if I might conjecture. A star being thrown to the earth (and seems to impact) could likely be a comet. a Comet shines and is fairly bright. If it did strike deeply enough it could break through the earth's crust and the result would spew smoke as a volcano being formed.


If that is what is being described, then one of the things that accompany large eruptions of volcanoes is Sulfur or other gasses which can poison, or even kill those who breath it. Also if an eruption were large enough, it could in fact cover the earth with enough ash and soot as to darken the sky.


Now it says locusts come out of the smoke. It is being inferred that they were hidden in the earth. I know that the Locusts around here tend to bury themselves in the ground, so it could be that this action awakens these locust. Elsewhere in Revelation John talks about a Mountain that he sees thrust into the seas, the only thing we know of that could compare would be an Asteroid. I'm not sure that the people of John's day had the knowledge of what comets and asteroids were. In fact, its likely they even thought near earth planets like Venus and Mars were stars as well.

I'm not sure that I'd assume that this blackness is demons though. Perhaps the Locusts are, but I'm not sure you can infer that from this passage.

DigReal
Oct 19th 2008, 11:33 PM
The people of John's time may not have had the same understanding of the cosmos that we have today, but they did know the planets were different from stars. For one, they could see the difference (they had clear skies, with no smog or light pollution, so a dramatic difference right there). But also, stars appear to move together, especially as constellations. The planets appear to move independently from the stars and each other. That's why certain cultures considered the planets to be the movements of gods... Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were easy to define and watch from night to night.

Comets, of course, were seen as signs, as they often still are today. But meteorites (meteors that strike the surface), I'm not sure how they were interpreted... but it couldn't be anything good. I can't imagine a comet being able to penetrate the earth's crust to the depths needed, without ripping off a sizable chunk of the earth (the kind of stuff scientists say gave us the moon).

Instead, for the sky darkening, perhaps think of hundreds of nukes going off around the world? Could also be from hundreds of meteorites hitting the earth in a short time, perhaps deflected from the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter?

Personally, I like to believe the locusts John describes are literal, but can also accept the idea that they're the radioactive debris that scatters around the world from all the nukes. :eek:

Anyways, lots of possibilities. :hmm:

Veretax
Oct 20th 2008, 12:07 AM
The people of John's time may not have had the same understanding of the cosmos that we have today, but they did know the planets were different from stars. For one, they could see the difference (they had clear skies, with no smog or light pollution, so a dramatic difference right there). But also, stars appear to move together, especially as constellations. The planets appear to move independently from the stars and each other. That's why certain cultures considered the planets to be the movements of gods... Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were easy to define and watch from night to night.

Comets, of course, were seen as signs, as they often still are today. But meteorites (meteors that strike the surface), I'm not sure how they were interpreted... but it couldn't be anything good. I can't imagine a comet being able to penetrate the earth's crust to the depths needed, without ripping off a sizable chunk of the earth (the kind of stuff scientists say gave us the moon).

Instead, for the sky darkening, perhaps think of hundreds of nukes going off around the world? Could also be from hundreds of meteorites hitting the earth in a short time, perhaps deflected from the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter?

Personally, I like to believe the locusts John describes are literal, but can also accept the idea that they're the radioactive debris that scatters around the world from all the nukes. :eek:

Anyways, lots of possibilities. :hmm:


I'm not necessarily inclined to believe that in John's time that the knowledge of planet was common knowledge. It may have been known by certain thinker and philosphers and scientists, but was it really known of all men? I'm not so sure about that.

I do agree with you though, a burning star could be a description of a nuclear missile. One theory I read is that if a sizable asteroid impacted it could send debris up high maybe out of the atmosphere only for it to return to earth's surface as meteors. Its also possible that the black smoke could be caused by massive seismic and volcanic activity caused by some such event... It hard to say, we only know in part what John said as we are far separated from the knowledge available of that day.

jamison
Oct 20th 2008, 12:34 AM
Instead, for the sky darkening, perhaps think of hundreds of nukes going off around the world? Could also be from hundreds of meteorites hitting the earth in a short time, perhaps deflected from the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter?

Personally, I like to believe the locusts John describes are literal, but can also accept the idea that they're the radioactive debris that scatters around the world from all the nukes. :eek:

Anyways, lots of possibilities. :hmm:

I personally believe that the majority of The Revelation is figurative. You didn't quote a verse on the sky darkening, but here is one instance:
Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The key is in understanding what the symbols mean. In this instance, the sun moon and stars represent Israel. This symbolism starts in Genesis when Joseph has the dream that the sun, moon, and stars bow down to him. Jacob recognized that these were his family (where the Israelites come from of course). Notice in Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: This woman is representative of Israel again which is pretty easy to see from the rest of chapter 12, and once again the symbols sun, moon, and stars symbol is tied with Israel.

Also, in 6:12-13 it speaks of a fig tree. The fig tree is often times used as a symbol of Israel. Notice the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13. Also, remember Jesus cursing the fig tree that had no figs and it withered. Was Jesus just mad at the fig tree? No! He was upset at Israel and how they did not produce fruit. He cursed it and it withered and now, as Paul points out in Romans, the Jews have been stripped of their position and it has been given to the Gentiles (Romans 9 and 11, especially 11:25-32).

Anyway, I believe that it is not the sun, moon, and stars actually darkening, it is Israels losing her position with God. In fact, I am of the opinion that most of The Revelation is symbolic. Just like the visions in Daniel. There was an idol with 4 parts that represented 4 empires and then a vision with 4 separate beasts (lion, bear, leopard, beast with 10 horns) which represented the same 4 empires (Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greek, Roman).

jamison

DigReal
Oct 20th 2008, 12:40 AM
Yeah, lots of possibilities there. None are pleasant! :pray:

I don't think any special knowledge was required back then to know of "planets" being different than "stars". Anyone could see it. Think about it... anyone in the world could spend their nights laying on the ground and gazing at the heavens. And why wouldn't they... they didn't have tv, computers, etc. to occupy their free time. They would've seen a tapestry in the sky beyond our imagination. And they would certainly notice the difference between planets and stars. No doubt, they might not know WHY there was a difference, but they would've noted it.

I'm a desert camper who loves doing exactly what I described, but also know the pollution ruins my view of the sky. :( Most nights I could probably count the stars, but counting was not possible back then. Still, even with the pollution today, shooting stars and planets can't be missed.

Veretax
Oct 20th 2008, 01:51 AM
Yeah, lots of possibilities there. None are pleasant! :pray:

I don't think any special knowledge was required back then to know of "planets" being different than "stars". Anyone could see it. Think about it... anyone in the world could spend their nights laying on the ground and gazing at the heavens. And why wouldn't they... they didn't have tv, computers, etc. to occupy their free time. They would've seen a tapestry in the sky beyond our imagination. And they would certainly notice the difference between planets and stars. No doubt, they might not know WHY there was a difference, but they would've noted it.

I'm a desert camper who loves doing exactly what I described, but also know the pollution ruins my view of the sky. :( Most nights I could probably count the stars, but counting was not possible back then. Still, even with the pollution today, shooting stars and planets can't be missed.

It seems the King James translates one word one time as Planet:

Strong's Number: 04208 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=4208&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hlzzmapparently from (05140 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=5140&version=kjv)) in the sense of raining Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04208&version=kjv#Legend) Entry MazzalahTWOT - 1173 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech maz-zaw-law' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=4208h) Noun Feminine Definition

constellations

signs of zodiac (maybe)



King James Word Usage - Total: 1 planet 1
2 Kings 23:5And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
That by itself though doesn't prove they knew the difference between a planet and a star. Now you are right, if someone did watch the sky regularly they could notice a pattern that some moved differently. I'm not entirely convinced they'd understand that they were different from the other stars in general. I think we take for granted that we are educated in the sun centered model of Astronomy so for us its a no brainer, but I'm not sure that back in those days it was.

Some of Revelation is perhaps symbolic. The question is how to tell what is and what is not :/

quiet dove
Oct 20th 2008, 02:32 AM
I am not sure you guess noticed but you have rabbit trailed to way off topic, from "the days of Noah"

Veretax
Oct 20th 2008, 12:01 PM
hrms... You are right. Apologies