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Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 03:12 PM
Something I've been wondering about regarding children and the rapture: If all children who die under the age of accountability go to heaven, then does that mean that their names are written in the book of life until that time?

If so, will they be raptured?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 9th 2008, 03:22 PM
Something I've been wondering about regarding children and the rapture: If all children who die under the age of accountability go to heaven, then does that mean that their names are written in the book of life until that time?

If so, will they be raptured?Unfortunately, the Bible gives us nothing specific about that. We'll just have to trust the goodness of the Lord in this matter.

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 03:58 PM
This question also has implications to OSAS doctrine in that some people quote about names in the book of life being blotted out for this or that. If everybody's name is written in the book of life at the beginning, if they don't become a christian, their name would be blotted out. Not because a christian has a falling away from God.

MrAnteater
Oct 9th 2008, 04:19 PM
I believe Children who have not reached the age of accountability will be taken up at the rapture.

I tend to disagree with most views on that age because I think it's not until 20 that children become accountable. The main clues from the bible include:

Exo 30:14 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the LORD's offering.

Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all in Israel who are able to go to war, you and Aaron shall list them, company by company.

Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,

Here we see to be considered an adult in the census, to fight in war, and to be judged for the lack of faith and idolatry in the wilderness all point to 20 years old.

Rookie78
Oct 9th 2008, 04:29 PM
I believe Children who have not reached the age of accountability will be taken up at the rapture.

I tend to disagree with most views on that age because I think it's not until 20 that children become accountable. The main clues from the bible include:

Exo 30:14 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the LORD's offering.

Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all in Israel who are able to go to war, you and Aaron shall list them, company by company.

Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,

Here we see to be considered an adult in the census, to fight in war, and to be judged for the lack of faith and idolatry in the wilderness all point to 20 years old.

Whoa! I never would've thought that the age of accountability would be that old, but if that is true, it just goes to show how merciful the Lord is.

cwb
Oct 9th 2008, 11:04 PM
I'm not buying into this "age of accountability" thing. A five year old has the ability to say yes or no to Jesus Christ when told about Him. I certainly don't think parents should hold off telling their kids how to get saved because "oh well, they're going to be raptured anyways whether they accept Jesus Christ or not because they are not at the "age of accountablity"". I see absolutely no biblical basis for that line of thinking.

quiet dove
Oct 9th 2008, 11:43 PM
I'm not buying into this "age of accountability" thing. A five year old has the ability to say yes or no to Jesus Christ when told about Him. I certainly don't think parents should hold off telling their kids how to get saved because "oh well, they're going to be raptured anyways whether they accept Jesus Christ or not because they are not at the "age of accountablity"". I see absolutely no biblical basis for that line of thinking.

How does believing a child will be raptured equate to parents not also being obedient in that the Bible says to teach your children from moment one with them? Your making assumptions that just because parents believe their children will be raptured they will refrane from telling their children about Jesus. I believe my son would be raptured but still took him to church. He used to get the pastor tickled just being so cute in the back of the little church we went to at the time. He would march his little two year old self up to the front for the nice lady to pray for him.

Nyoka
Oct 9th 2008, 11:46 PM
Rookie78 Children may or may not go in the rapture but that is up to God. As another poster said the bible is very quiet on this.

I do believe there may be an age of accountability but what that age is lies entirely with God. Most people quote the age in exodus as the age of accountability but that may not be the case. In 2 Chronicles we find this verse: 2Ch 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD. This boy was only eight when he became king but the bible says he did evil. For the bible to be saying he did evil then the boy would have to know what evil was - or have a basic understanding of what it is. As you can see the 'age of accountability' is not as clear cut as the verses in exodus make out. I trust God to know the right decision to make over this issue and I am willing to leave it with Him to deal with.

DigReal
Oct 10th 2008, 12:22 AM
Good subject!

First, I do believe in the age of accountability. I'm starting to get up there in years, but still remember how my "world view" changed during puberty. That was major! I went from caring about being a cute or nice kid to the adults, to pondering the universe, the meaning of life, and wondering about who God really is... all at once. Since we all mature at different ages, I don't think any one number can be assigned to it. Certainly not "20".... and some never reach accountability. But God surely knows!

Second, I believe all start out in the Book of Life, long before our conception. We then have the option of being blotted out. This is an example of God's love at it's finest.

Conclusion: Yep, all children (and fetuses) will be raptured. Along with many of the mentally challenged.

I won't pretend to know when the rapture will be, but I'm sure of this: It'll be the biggest thing ever to happen to mankind, and no one left behind will be able to "explain it away". The children are my number one reason for believing this to be true.

cwb
Oct 10th 2008, 12:47 AM
How does believing a child will be raptured equate to parents not also being obedient in that the Bible says to teach your children from moment one with them? Your making assumptions that just because parents believe their children will be raptured they will refrane from telling their children about Jesus. I believe my son would be raptured but still took him to church. He used to get the pastor tickled just being so cute in the back of the little church we went to at the time. He would march his little two year old self up to the front for the nice lady to pray for him.

I don't think believing a child will be raptured equates to a parent not being obedient. Sorry if my post seemed to say that. That is not what I meant. I said it more for if there might be any parent who thinks they do not need to teach their children how to get saved because they are not at the age of accountability yet. I agree with the poster who said God sees that age differently for every person. It could be 8 years old for some or older for others. I seriously doubt though that every person younger than 20 years old gets raptured. So a 19 year old who has had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ but chose not to gets a pass and gets raptured. I find that very hard to believe.

immortality
Oct 10th 2008, 11:20 PM
i'm with john macarthur on this one:
The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr:

"What happens to children during and after the rapture?"

"Now it's my personal conviction, my personal belief that in the rapture every child that is too young to have made a conscience, willful, rebellious, sinful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord. I believe that it would be just the same if a little child died before he reached that age; he would instantly go to be with the Lord. David’s little boy died (2 Samuel), he says, "He cannot come to me but I shall go to him." He knew where he was; he knew he was in the presence of God. I believe when the rapture happens all the little kids that are under the age where they made a conscience, willful, sinful, rebellion against God, where they willfully turned their back on him, I believe the Lord will just take them right with us. You say do you believe that about the children of the unsaved parents? Yes, that’s just my personal opinion cause the Bible doesn’t say. But, if Jesus said, "If anybody offends one of these little ones, it would be better for him..." what? "That a millstone were hanged around his neck and he would drown in the sea. He said if anyone offends one of these MY little ones." I think he possesses them. I think they belong to him, and I think they will go in the rapture."

also intriguing is that the "new agers" will apparently attempt to explain away the disappearance of all children during the rapture by saying they were "evacuated" by our "friendly space brothers":
"PHASE I of the Great Exodus of souls from the planet will take place at a moment's notice when it is determined that the inhabitants are in danger"

"PHASE II This second phase immediately following the first. The second phase is vital, as we return for children of all ages and races. The child does not have the power of choice in understanding nor personal accountability."

this would be nothing more than deception, of course. in reality, they will have been taken by god's angels.

larry2
Oct 10th 2008, 11:53 PM
Children go to heaven

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

All children are born in the character and nature of their parents, but God does not judge our sinful nature; only sin. 1 Corinthians 15:3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."

In 2 Samuel 28 David had a child fall ill that finally died. He had prayed many days and yet God took him. David then said after being asked why he was no longer sad; he replied in 2 Samuel 12:23. "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

The question then must be; where is David now? We find him mentioned in Hebrews 11:32 as a worthy of faith; he is in heaven, and thus according to the word of God the child must be there also.

Merton
Oct 11th 2008, 12:45 AM
The Bible does give some answers to the question.


Only the overcomers of all agers will be in the first resurrection (Rev.20. Rev.3:21)

and this rules out children who may not be believers or overcomers, but mortal life goes on after the first resurrection for non-beast worshippers who heed those messages. Rev.14 messages and Psalm 72.

Young children have nearly always gone with their parents, whether the parents are righteous or not, but in the case of the first resurrection then the living children of the righteous will still be with believers , but the children of the wicked will die with the wicked unless they are in the company of the believers.

We tend to believe what the majority believe but the majority belief is continually shown to be wrong. We must get back to the facts of the Bible itself

Just because it will be like the days of Noah and of Lot when Christ returns, does not make either Noah or Lot an example of the first resurrection of the overcomers, but only an example of the times and the saving of the righteous from destruction, and NOT by resurrection in either case.

Lot was certainly not an overcomer, and Noah and sons represent Christ and His ministers, but nothing is said of their resurrection. (in the OT accounts).

In the last judgment the children of the wicked stand with the goats, unless they had come to believe, and it is not out of the question that God does reveal Himself to them or some of them, unknown to man, and they therefore stand with the sheep with the sheep's children.

Paul said that to be in the first resurrection, was a great prize to be fought for, and has a far greater entrance requirement than just being a believer, as those believers who travelled from Egypt to the promised land found out, some of whom have had their names struck out of the book of life, and others not who did not overcome in their lifetime but will still make it at the last judgment into the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

There would be children who had perished in judgments upon their wicked parents, who will survive the last judgment, and in my case I would have been one of them if I had died at the age of 5 years, but I do not think that I would have had the qualifications to be in the resurrection with the overcomers at the return of Christ.

I doubt that very many would be discussing Gods word on this board unless they are called to be overcomers of the first resurrection, but being called and attaining are two distinct things.

Phi 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,
Phi 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;
Phi 3:11 if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 My brothers, I do not count myself to have taken possession, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind and reaching forward to the things before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you.
Phi 3:16 Yet, as to what we have already attained, let us walk in the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 3:17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and mark those who walk this way, for you have us for a pattern.
Phi 3:18 (For many are walking, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ;
Phi 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, those who mind earthly things.)
Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phi 3:21 who shall change our body of humiliation so that it may be fashioned like His glorious body, according to the working of His power, even to subdue all things to Himself.



Merton


Postscript.

According to Acts 2:34 , David is not now in Heaven.

Rookie78
Oct 11th 2008, 05:27 PM
I John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Overcomers = Christians/Believers

crush
Oct 12th 2008, 02:59 AM
If a child has at least one Parent who is a believer, I think they're okay if they die prematurely.....

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 03:06 AM
If a child has at least one Parent who is a believer, I think they're okay if they die prematurely.....

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.So in other words, if an innocent child who isn't even old enough to speak yet has two parents who are both lost, that child is rejected, but the next door neighbor child of exactly the same age who happens to have a parent who is a believer will be accepted? You can't be serious.

Or looking at it from the other side, if I were married and my wife was a lost as a goose, she would to to heaven because she happened to be married to me?

Have you ever really considered what "sanctified" means?

crush
Oct 12th 2008, 03:56 AM
So in other words, if an innocent child who isn't even old enough to speak yet has two parents who are both lost, that child is rejected, but the next door neighbor child of exactly the same age who happens to have a parent who is a believer will be accepted? You can't be serious.

Or looking at it from the other side, if I were married and my wife was a lost as a goose, she would to to heaven because she happened to be married to me?

Have you ever really considered what "sanctified" means?

No, if your wife is a non-believer your salvation doesn't save her....Your belief "sanctifies" the marriage, and the children are born "holy"


Sanctify
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Holy
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 07:13 AM
No, if your wife is a non-believer your salvation doesn't save her....Your belief "sanctifies" the marriage, and the children are born "holy".Wouldn't the children of a lost person be just as "holy" in God's eyes?

crush
Oct 12th 2008, 01:09 PM
Wouldn't the children of a lost person be just as "holy" in God's eyes?
The child would be "unclean" born/belonging to two lost parents according to this scripture. "Unclean" would mean unacceptable to God, and the child wouldn't be allowed to enter the Kingdom [Eph 5:5]

I would have to say that the this whole matter of clean/unclean children is a judgment from God's perspective (God's eyes) and not our own. Because, as you are demonstrating by your indignation, it would matter little to us whether a child was clean/unclean in this regard, and the child would be considered "innocent" in our eyes.

It bothered me too when I first read this scripture and tried to debunk it, but I really wasn't able to. I think you are making an incorrect assumption that all children are "born innocent".

I believe that some commentators try and spin 1 Co 7:14 as type of legalistic matter. Such as your children are born "illegitimate" if two non-believers are married, as in God doesn't recognize the marriage of two unbelievers. I can't see it....

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 01:24 PM
The child would be "unclean" born/belonging to two lost parents according to this scripture. "Unclean" would mean unacceptable to God, and the child wouldn't be allowed to enter the Kingdom [Eph 5:5]I don't see what Ephesians 5:5 has to do with children.
I would have to say that the this whole matter of clean/unclean children is a judgment from God's perspective (God's eyes) and not our own. Because, as you are demonstrating by your indignation, it would matter little to us whether a child was clean/unclean in this regard, and the child would be considered "innocent" in our eyes.Actually, the cause of my "indignation" is your suggestion that somebody's eternal destiny could be in the hands of somebody else, whether it be their parent(s) or anybody else.
It bothered me too when I first read this scripture and tried to debunk it, but I really wasn't able to. I think you are making an incorrect assumption that children are "born innocent".Then perhaps you could explain David's statement in II Samuel 12:23 - "I will go to him." What does that mean if not that David would see his dead child in heaven someday?
I believe that some commentators try and spin 1 Co 7:14 as type of legalistic matter. Such as your children are born "illegitimate" if two non-believers are married, as in God doesn't recognize the marriage of two unbelievers. But that seems like a stretch to me *shrugs*"Sanctified" in I Corinthians 7:14 is not referring to their salvation status, but to their exposure to the Gospel.

crush
Oct 12th 2008, 01:36 PM
I don't see what Ephesians 5:5 has to do with children.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Then perhaps you could explain David's statement in II Samuel 12:23 - "I will go to him." What does that mean if not that David would see his dead child in heaven someday?"David was a believer - so his child would've been born "holy" according to 1 Cor 7:14


"Sanctified" in I Corinthians 7:14 is not referring to their salvation status, but to their exposure to the Gospel.Why would reading the bible to your unsaved spouse result in your children being "holy".

quiet dove
Oct 12th 2008, 06:55 PM
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
David was a believer - so his child would've been born "holy" according to 1 Cor 7:14

Why would reading the bible to your unsaved spouse result in your children being "holy".

I think you are misapplying this to children. Within the context a child cannot be an idolater unless they have reached an age of being capable of decision making, same with covetous. So throwing "unclean" toward a child that has made no decision to be unclean seems to be over applying here to me. I would have to agree with Ll on asking why would you apply that to children. Even conceived in what might be called an "unclean" way, the child itself still has made no decision and cannot be punished for the parents actions.

jesusfreak123
Oct 14th 2008, 12:46 AM
I'm with quiet dove!!!
It would be wrong for a child to go to hell because their parents weren't christians.